|
|
| (61 intermediate revisions by 21 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| ==Radio Alphabet== | | {{Template:Archive-bot |
| | |maxarchivesize = 120K |
| | |counter = 1 |
| | |algo = old(30d) |
| | |archive = Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive%(counter)d |
| | }} |
| | {{ArchiveTOC}} |
|
| |
|
| ''Discussions moved to [[Talk:Colonial Wireless Alphabet]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 20:07, 10 October 2005 (EDT).''
| | ==Tauron Language== |
|
| |
|
| ==Aerelon Accent==
| | I am under the impression that the Tauron language is not Ancient Greek, but rather Modern Greek. I am a Greek citizen and am obviously familiar with both Modern and Ancient Greek, and by watching Caprica I believe that even though the way they pronounce the words and phrases is the Ancient Greek way, they use word syntax and slang that is clearly Modern Greek (like for instance in episode 3 where they are drinking beers one of the Adamas says to the other "Γειά μας" (ya mas) which is slang for "(στην υ)γεία μας" (stin iyia mas) meaning "to our health"). Futhermore, the rap song heard on the same scene (if I listened correctly) has lyrics that are in Modern Greek. |
| :''(It is probably some subtle nuance that a Colonial character like Baltar could notice, but that is indistinguishable from an American accent to the audience).''
| |
|
| |
|
| No, listen. None of these characters are actually speaking English. The whole thing is a conceit to make it intelligable to the viewer. I'm sure that in the fictional universe of BSG, Boomer does speak with a "trace of an Aerelon accent", but since the show chooses to represent this as Standard American English, there's little point speculating about phonological variations that we can't hear. It's not a matter of Baltar being able to hear something we can't, the showmakers have just chosen not to give us the information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:38, 10 September 2005 (EDT)
| | Are there any official sources that state Tauron is Ancient and not Modern Greek? -- [[User:Phillyboy|Phillyboy]] 18:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC) |
| | |
| : Yeah. I tend to agree. My agreement is influenced by a couple of things in addition to the above.
| |
| | |
| : '''One:''' I have a BA in Linguistics. I know a bit about accents and the sounds of human speech, etc. I'm also somewhat used to hearing differences in sounds that most Anglophones aren't used to (like distinctions that are meaningful in other languages, but not in English). These two things make it hard for me to believe that, after reading about this theory and listening to Boomer speak with the purpose of hearing an accent, I'd somehow be unable to hear it simply because I'm ''missing'' it.
| |
| | |
| : '''Two:''' I'm a rather large Tolkien dork and am familiar with the idea of "translating" something into English for the benefit of English-speaking viewers (to say nothing of over-dubbed versions of this show for non-English-speaking viewers. Additionally, being familiar with Tolkien's special flavor of language-centric crazy, I don't get that, well, vibe from RDM. He seems much more interested in the story and the cinematics than correctly representing the names of people from Dale as corrupted Old English names in order to show their long-ago linguistic connection to the Rohirrim, whose language is tacitly represented by Old English--as he should be.
| |
| | |
| : If, for whatever reason, the BSG production/directoral staff were interested in drawing parallels to Colonial accents with the use of English accents, it would be much more apparent. What is more likely is, as Peter posits, they aren't giving us the information. That's been screened out if for no other reason than the fact that they didn't really think about it. It's not a big deal. I think this is evidenced by Baltar's remark about Boomer's accent, actually. If they were keeping tabs of language enough to care about accents, they would realise the extreme unlikelihood that even a stereotypically recognized majority of an entire planet's population would have an accent that was the same. I mean--What's the most common (and thus, best seen as stereotypically Earthly) accent on our world? Chinese. Which is, you know, not precisely an accent. ;o)
| |
| | |
| : I think, actually, that the BSG crew ''are'' paying attention to accents, however. It's just not in a way that identifies characters geographically or--whatever. They pick accents that will predispose American and British (and, thus, probably Australian) viewers to certain preconceptions about their characters. Baltar speaks, more or less, the Queen's English, which will predispose Westerners to assume he's intelligent, wealthy, well bred and well educated. Baltar ''is'' these things. Kara Thrace speaks pretty standard American English and does it with a fairly high volume. She assumes the stereotypes of the loud American, so to speak. Notice, too, that the reporter had an English accent. At the end of her documentary, I half expected her to say, "This is D'anna Whatever, BBC news." I don't even ''get'' the BBC in Texas.
| |
| | |
| : This is getting absurdly lengthy. I apologize. I tend to do this when words are at issue. Anyway, one final point: I don't think the same thing can be neccesarily said for "race". Since where your genes are from, geographically, is a rather more visual thing, I tend to think that this would more easily occur to a TV producer as something worth keeping track of. That doesn't mean that it did and they are, but that most of my arguements here don't apply to that case much. I'll, ah, I'm done now. ;o) --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:31, 10 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ::Well said. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:01, 10 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| It is true that Grace Park is a fluent speaker of Korean, but her English--either as Sharon Valerii or as herself in interviews--bears no trace of a Korean accent whatsoever. I am married to a native Korean speaker, have friends and colleagues who speak Korean either as their first or second language, and have been studying the language for a few years myself, so I am absolutely certain that Korean has no bearing on what might or might not be considered an Aerelon accent. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]
| |
| | |
| :I tend to agree, but felt like someone would bring up her bilingualism inevitably and that it would be better to address it directly. If Grace Park (and thus Boomer) has a trace of ''any'' accent, it ought to be Korean, so I felt it worth a mention. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ::You said that Grace Park's bilingualism would come up eventually. I would recommend limiting discussions of her bilingualism to the actress' bio page. The label "Korean" doesn't meaningfully describe anything that's going on when Sharon/Boomer is speaking. My own Korean is getting good enough that I'm approaching true "bilingual" status, but nobody would use "Korean" to describe my English. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]
| |
| | |
| :::Discussing Park's bilingualism on the actress' bio page would not shed any insight for a reader of this page, nor would it allay any questions that such knowledge might raise. I understand that her spoken english is flawless, but the fact that it is not actually her first language is at least marginally relevant here, and is given the footnote it deserves.
| |
| | |
| :::As for her "northwestern" accent, I don't truly believe that that's any different from General American / Standard Midwestern - the only phonological difference I can think of is the caught/cot merger, which is too subtle to deserve the name "accent". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:00, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :::: Perhaps it should be specifically noted here that her Korean fluency doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever on her English accent. I agree with Peter that it's important to note it here, so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't come along and think we missed that point and that they've solved our problem by mentioning a (non-existant) Korean accent. Sometimes, when you are making an argument or assertion, you have to mention some things that are, really, irrelevant in order to make clear that they are, indeed, irrelevant so that others will not wrongly think that they are. Make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:08, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::I was just about to say something like that. Thanks, Day! --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 03:10, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::Tried to make it a little more forceful. You can tell that this wiki is great because we spend whole evenings discussing single sentences. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::: Nice edit. And I hope you were being serious. I spent a lot of time in college working on a print publication and for the last couple years, I was the Editor in Chief (kind of a joke because there were only six of us on staff). In any case, it was a humor publication and sometimes we'd spend hours debating about the wording of a single sentence in order to deliver the most punch. It almost always paid off. In this case, we're not looking to be funny, but I still think it pays to make sure a sentence communicates exactly the information we intend: no more and no less. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::::: Quite serious. Concision is nothing without precision. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::::: So, you're not really the Concision Fairy. You're the Concision/Percision Fairy. Which is less concise, but more precise. Maybe you're the (Con|Pre)cision Fairy. Phleh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:16, 20 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Racetrack==
| |
| Is it just me or does Racetrack have a vaguely Canadian accent in her scene on the Raptor early in [[Final Cut]]? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 10 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Stating the obvious==
| |
| | |
| :''Mister (Mr), Miss, and Doctor have all been used, but Missus {Mrs} has not.''
| |
| | |
| The concision fairy frowns in disapproval. Why is this interesting? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:26, 17 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| Nothing much since we haven't seen anyone married. Given the gender equality in BSG, however, it may well be that "Mrs" is not used. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:20, 17 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Valley Girl Accent==
| |
| | |
| [[User:Day|Day]] and I believe that [[Pythia]] likely spoke with [[Wikipedia:High rising terminal|High rising terminal]]s, also known as a "valley girl accent". We have concluded this based on the fact that no less than 67% of the direct quotes from her book of prophecy begin with the coordinating conjunction "and", as in the following passage:
| |
| | |
| "And, like, the lords anointed a leader to like, guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland?, and, like, unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents numbering two and ten?, as like, a sign of things to come?, which is like, totally spooky. And then, like, the Arrow of Apollo will open the Tomb of Athena, which is totally ''boss'', but Zeus like, got all uppity and warned the leaders of the twelve tribes that any return to Kobol would exact a price in blood, which is totally ''gross'', 'cause blood is gross, y'know? And like, a real ''bummer'', since Kobol is hot shit."
| |
| | |
| So say we all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 17 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| : NO, that was meant to sound religious, in the tone of "And the number shall be "three". "Four" be too many, and "two" be too few (unless though then proceedeth to "three"). "Five" is right out. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005
| |
| | |
| ::The effect is, as noted, somewhat different when you read them all out in a list. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 17 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :::Damn both of you. My deykoard is ruimed from spittake effect with kola! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:03, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ==General American==
| |
| On a somewhat smaller matter, there is no linguistically accepted version of English called "General English," with a capital G. I am willing to accept a lower case g, "general English," to indicate "common sense" notions about the accent/group of accents. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]
| |
| | |
| :You are correct. The article previously referred to Standard American English (SAE), which I have encountered in contrast to African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in sociolinguistics. As I'm sure you can tell, I intend to refer to the midwestern "newscaster accent" used throughout the entertainment industry.
| |
| | |
| :As for Wikipedia, they referred to this accent as [[Wikipedia:Standard Midwestern|Standard Midwestern]] until last February. It was then [[Wikipedia:Talk:General American#move to "General American"?|moved]] to [[Wikipedia:General American|General American]] based on [[Wikipedia:User:Angr|User:Angr]]'s statement that "the accent is not standard in any official sense, nor is it limited to the Midwest."
| |
| | |
| :Since they are serving as our primary reference, I am inclined to follow their conventions on the matter. Perhaps you could take up your point with them? I realize that we are not powerless to employ our own terminology, but consistancy strikes me as a self-evident virtue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :: Sigh. General American bothers me. I'd ''much'' prefer Standard American English. I mean--that's a term that linguists use when discussing American accents. I wish Wikipedia had a page entitled that, but I don't want to get into a land war there (or, really anything there as time is finite). A few things have to be understood about SAE (or, as it stands, General English):
| |
| | |
| :: 1) It doesn't really exist as a spoken dialect. No one grows up learning SAE the way one can grow up speaking Texan English or any of the various sub-dialects of AAVE or whatever. However, Americans seem to be able to sense what it is. This is still under research.
| |
| | |
| :: 2) When used in a non-scholastic setting (like this wiki), saying someone speaks SAE generally means that the region they learned English in is not identifyable by the way they speak. Apollo speaks SAE, for instance. However, Jamie Baber or however it's spellt, is British and really speaks some form of British English dialect (I've not heard him speak myself).
| |
| | |
| :: With these two trhings in mind, using a term like SAE to refer to dislects of characters is perfectly fine. I mean--the dialect is a kind of mental construct and so doesn't really exist and the characters, likewise, don't really exist. ;) Okay. That was a joke. My problem with the term "General American" is that I've never seen it before in a linguistic context. "Standard American English" is a term used in all caps like that in many texts by various authors. I'm tired and I think I'm losing coherancy. Does my point about, for lack of a better word, officialness come across clearly? I sure hope so. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:04, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| :::I would be happy to have the relevant links marked as Standard American English and go to Wiki's General American article through pipes. The term General American was introduced on October 8th by [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] - I'd like to know if he is personally in favor of the term, or was just matching wikipedia's terminology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:09, 19 October 2005 (EDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Sanskrit to do==
| |
| *Link to credible text repository & audio recording.
| |
| *Transliterate Sanskrit properly, using IAST. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:53, 14 November 2005 (EST)
| |
| | |
| Hopefully the Don Davis sources may be of help to others in further translation from his Matrix Revolutions tracks (noted in our article now). Enlightening stuff--I use the "Navras" track and its chant in my daily workouts--gets my heart rate up. I was wondering why Elosha's chant seemed so damned familiar, and now I know why. Wild how my favorite SF topics and music merge like this. Speaking of which, I think a music article on BSG will be due sometime... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:09, 14 November 2005 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :Am I the only one who finds this matrix stuff to be badly off-topic? Davis's transliteration isn't very good, either. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:04, 14 November 2005 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::I'm going to strike this. If anyone wants to make a note of the coincidence on the references page, that would be fine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:12, 14 November 2005 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ==Other Accents==
| |
| :What about all of the Canadian accents? I'm no linguist, but the way Tigh speaks sounds very different to the way Adama speaks. Besides, many characters on the show are played by Canadian actors like Aaron Douglas, Tricia Helfer, and Tahmoh Penikett, each with varying degrees of accent. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::Many Canadian accents are very similar to the Midwestern SAE used in Hollywood. If you can name a character with a particularly strong accent, I'd be happy to identify them here, but Hogan, Douglas, Helfer and Penikett don't seem to fit the bill.
| |
| | |
| ::Note that place of origin and accent do not necessarily coincide - nobody would claim that Lee Adama speaks with a British Accent, although Jamie Bamber certainly does. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:32, 17 January 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::I've always felt that Hogan's accent is somewhat obvious, but again, I'm not much experienced with Canadian-accented English. (I only know two or three Canadians myself.) Besides, you make a good point: even if Hogan's accent ''is'' strong enough to be considered noticable, it is no where near as different from SAE as, say, Baltar's. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:35, 17 January 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::: For me, Tigh's just got a few words that stick out. Unfortunately, the only word that comes to mind off the top of my head is one that doesn't really exist: Kobol. Everyone else says it as if it were some American saying Co-Ball (['kou.'bol]) or something (equal stress on both syllables), whereas he seems to say ['kou.bl] (with the syllabic l at the end). That's hack-IPA, there, because I've yet to take the time to figure out the way the thingie for it works, here. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ==Texas Accent==
| |
| Y'know, Baltar's Six definitely refers to his "nucular device" in "[[Epiphanies]]". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:49, 21 January 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| : Actually, that's not a Texas thing. We talked about that specifically in one of my classes, since that's such a common misconception due to G. W. Bush's hailing from our state and and pronouncing it thus. Apparently that's common in many Southern dialects (as in "The South" which includes states as far north as Virginia, but not, say, New Mexico). Not that Texas is really ''excluded'' from that list, I just thought I'd point out that it's more common than many city-dwellers think (including myself before I attended the afore mentioned lecture). Personally, I say it "NEW-clee-er" only slightly more often than "NEW-cue-ler". I feel like I"m rambling on, so I won't go into what factors contribute to a dialect switching the L and the following vowel in this word. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::Sounding off for a minute: the pronunciation is officially "New-clee-er", and Bush is yet again and embarrassment for pronouncing it wrong, then refusing to correct himself because he believes that he is infallible. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]]
| |
| | |
| ::: See, now you're gonna start arguing right and wrong with a [[Wikipedia:Descriptive linguistics|descriptive linguist]]. We're not your [[Wikipedia:Prescription and description|prescriptive]] Highschool English teacher. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:29, 22 January 2006 (EST)
| |
