View source for Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 1
| number = 1
| items = {{archive-item|1|Specialist Cally}} {{archive-item|1|Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial}} {{archive-item|1|How Many Admirals}} {{archive-item|1|Insignia}} {{archive-item|1|Tyrol & Hadrian}} {{archive-item|1|"Gunny"}} {{archive-item|1|Second Chart}} {{archive-item|1| Back to Officer Ranks...}} {{archive-item|1|Piping}} {{archive-item|1|Colorization|end=Y}}
|}}
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 2
| number = 2
| items = {{archive-item|2|Abbreviations}} {{archive-item|2|Rank Pins}} {{archive-item|2|General update of the page}} {{archive-item|2|Gold Bars}} {{archive-item|2|Assumptions}} {{archive-item|2|USAF?}} {{archive-item|2|Commander equals more to USN Captain, my argument}} {{archive-item|2|Idea for updated comparison list}} {{archive-item|2|Impressive Page, 1 Nitpick about dense chart|end=Y}}
|}}

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== Number ==

Shouldn't Commander be listed as O-7 and Rear Admiral as O-8? Not even getting into the debate over the officer/flag officer status of the Commander rank (although it could go either way (the Colonial forces could have seven officer ranks)), but why is it listed as N/A? It's clearly higher than Colonel, which is O-6. --[[User:Kevin W.|Kevin W.]] 21:05, 26 November 2006 (CST)
:The numbers correspond with the US ranks, not the BSG ranks. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:13, 27 November 2006 (CST)

== PO3 ==

I understand the note about Venner, since PO3 and Cpl are equivalent, but the page itself does quote RDM who says that there is no PO3 grade. How can the page be modified to show this? --[[User:Kevin W.|<b><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color: #006400">Kevin W.</span></b>]]<sup>&bull;[[User talk:Kevin W.|<span style="color: #DC143C ">So say we all</span>]]</sup> 18:27, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Mhh, you're right. Though I don't consider that one blog entry as the very last word on it. Ideas might have changed a bit by now. Who knows.
:Anyways, the list incluces PO3 mainly for the sake of completion I guess. It does say that some aspects of the table are speculative and that was always ok. You could add a footnote, like done for all other annotations. Then the explination shows up under "references". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== New information ==

There's an article that is a few months old on galactica.tv about the pins and symbols of the uniforms [http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galactica-2003---news/rank-insignia-and-symbolism-analysis-for-battlestar-galactica-2003-update.html here]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 08:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
:The new information is really the tiny details that are available from of the pins. Our insignia pictures are from that very same rank chart, so the information is already reflected, except for the narrower Lt.j.g. pin. I can update that later. We just have drawings instead of photographs which is somewhat cleaner however. Maybe the great photo of the Commander pin could be included somehow? (like "more images").
:Maybe the information on the other uniform devices could be put on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] though. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:10, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
:: Sounds good. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 09:30, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Recent round of edits ==

I got caught up in this again. If I come off as harsh or all to superior, I'm really sorry, but I think this page is pretty good as it is. And all the rest is really pretty nitpicky.

I think it comes down to to different approaches:
#That the whole comparison to modern militaries (specifically the US Navy) is overdone.
#Some people seem to be more interested having a close to perfect comparison. Nothing wrong with that. 

Personally, I'm clearly in camp 1. Sure there are many parallels. But it's not exactly the same. So this page shouldn't be forced to do something that just isn't there. And in the last major overhauls I tried to excise many of the unnecessary comparisons and make more BSG arguments for things. As it stands, we have reasonable good evidence (sometimes conjectural) that commander more closely resembles a modern captain. Like it doesn't seem to be considered a flag rank; and Roslin also seems to imply that she sees Adama as captain in "Resurrection Ship, Part II". The rest is just made fit as best as possible. Putting Lt. opposed to Lt. make most sense, and so that leaves one rank free. It's not all that clear, but it's there.

So how do other people feel about this? Not so much about the details, but the whole approach of the article. Is the US Navy thing really that important? Should the article be more about BSG? Should we maybe just ditch the comparison if it's so troublesome and not perfect anyways? I think we can keep it, but it just needs to be clear that it's not supposed to be 1:1. I updated the introduction further to try to reflect that. Maybe I'm just too invested here, because I made a lot substantial edits to it, but I also don't like if people just change substantial things, when we had a sort-of consensus about it.

To the people who made those edits: I know you are new. I know that you haven't read everything. And I really don't want to seem overly harsh to you. That's why I'm trying to explain and discuss this here. :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:44, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

== Why not just scrap the US Naval Rank column ==

Absent anything from Ron Moore or the writer's bible, it's all speculation and guesstimation.  The only salient comparisons within the RDM Galactica universe would be Fleet vs. Marines.  The "Official Statement" is self-explanatory.  And like a lot of good fiction, sometimes it's best to leave some details to the individual's own imagination ... {{unsigned|Fredmdbud}}

:Yeah, I'm just about ready do that. We can also keep it, but people just have to realize that it won't fit perfectly. It's a rough guideline, but nothing more. I've inserted two paragraphs now that point that out, without actually hitting the reader of the head.
:That whole part is really from the very first version of this article, that was actually more about finding arguments for that comparison table than documenting the BSG universe. Sure you can make a table that lines all up 1:1, but after some discussion most people felt that there are more points to compare the BSG rank of commander to a real world captain, and the rest is built around that. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 04:38, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

::My only concern with deleting it is that it's the type of thing that might get periodically re-added by passers-by. I'd advise some note on the article to head that off, but I have doubts as to whether that would be heeded. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:55, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
:::True. And while it's not that important, there is some merit to the comparison. It shouldn't be taken ''too'' seriously (pot.kettle.black. ;)), but some people are probably interested to know where certain ranks fall. In retrospect I realize that while there were explanations for certain ranks, there was no explanation for the overall structure. That was an oversight that is hopefully corrected now. We can't expect people to read long arguments on the talk pages to understand how some things are decided, and parts of this article were just presented "as is" without clarification. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:27, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

==Room for other ranks?==

It is hard to beleive that the ranks shown thus far are the only ones.  There would logically be something like Midshipman for officer trainees and Lieutenant-Colonel.  If so, the Midshipman grad would be easy to figure out (a white diamond), though Lt. Col would be a little more difficult, given the differences between the Colonel and Major insignia.  Just a thought...  [[User:Expatkiwi|Expatkiwi]] 16:58, 27 December 2007 (PST)
: True. However, we go with ranks that we've either seen or heard on screen or via behind-the-scenes sources. We don't really speculate on any "missing" ranks, since that falls under "[[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 19:05, 27 December 2007 (CST)

==Specialist classes==
IMO the specialist class ranks from the [[Flight of the Phoenix]] and [[Revelations]] credits should be considered official unless they are refuted by a more recent official source. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:What specialist class ranks are you referring to?-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 04:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:::The credits list Figurski as "Specialist 3rd class". So, there appear to be at least 3 subdivisions here. But it's not that clear how they should be split up. We also only have a single rank insignia for specialist. I'll add a footnote for now, as it should be noted. It should probably be included into the table, but the question is how. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

== RDM's list ==

Seeing the edits on the page, I need to chime in here. RDM's list, which was published over three years ago, is not the definitive list and we should not be a slave to it. There have been introductions of new ranks since then, like Lt. Colonel and Rear Admiral, that are not included on his list. Conspicuously, he does not include "Warrant Officer" (which there is a pin for, and these are the guys in the BG with the beige BDUs), in addition to Private (like [[Stewart Jaffee]]). I'll try to post the definitive list in a few weeks, but the edits that Serenity did are the most accurate to date with the presently available information I have. Attempts to revert them will probably resort in the page being locked, just so you know, since I don't want a needless edit war to break out. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, just what I was thinking. I don't get why this should be ''the'' definite list. It's a fine basis, but it's old and things have been added since then. And this page has always been speculative. In the past far more so than now. It's not like the speculative ranks aren't marked. I've included an (s) for those two ranks now, in addition to the footnotes. I wouldn't just add all kinds of speculation just because it sounds nice, but it's marked clearly enough. If people would rather have something more "official" they are free to skip those lines. It just doesn't make much sense to skip vice admiral for no reason, when rear admiral and admiral have been established, given that the ranks more or less follow real-world examples otherwise. And it's been on the list for one or two years without anyone really objecting.
:In general my reverts here, have also been about style. Mainly odd capitalization. Things like "commissioned officer" just aren't capitalized (unless in the headers of the table and such). But neither are ranks. It's "Johnson is a lieutenant", but "Tell Lieutenant Johnson". That's also [[w:Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#Military_terms|what Wikipedia uses]], though they are a bit inconsistent with it. Other sources like [http://www.hjf.org/style_guide/style.html#Titles this], [http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/111201.htm this] or [http://stylemanual.ngs.org/Intranet/styleman.nsf/2050e60b02a59c46852566510067477d/2fa90f9b71e105f6852566880054c234?OpenDocument this] also make this clear. I've also noted that people try to capitalize "president" and "vice president" on every occasion. The same rules usually apply there unless it's the full title of the office like "President of the Twelve Colonies"-- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:: All true. By the way, I'd like to get rid of the "Junior Grade"/"Senior Grade" stuff and simply go with "Junior Lieutenant" and "Senior Lieutenant", since this is what they identify these ranks by behind the scenes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:::On screen both are used though (though in props mostly junior lieutenant). They seem to exist side by side. There is a footnote about it, actually (#7). Maybe that could be changed to make it clearer, or switched around. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:::The only real mentions of "Lieutenant Junior Grade" are in the Miniseries, and that was quickly dropped, along with a few other things that didn't quite work from the miniseries. (Such as the "Blade Runner" guns from the Miniseries, which weren't built to last anyway and were just poorly designed.) But I see your point. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

== Initial new information ==

This is by no means the complete list of ranks, but it's based off the pin-ordering sheet I have in front of me. (No, I can't scan it. Sorry.)

From highest to lowest (these are the "green fill" verisons):

* Crew Master Chief
* Crew Senior Chief (this is what Tyrol wears before his demotion for being an ass)
* Sergeant 1st Class (basically the Junior Lieutenant, except the fill is green, not gold).
* Crew Sergeant (like crew specialist, but has another border—with no breaks—between the outside border and the diamond)
* Crew Specialist 
* Crewman (which is the same pin as the "Private" that Jaffee wears)
* Crewman Apprentice 

The gold versions:

* Commander
* Colonel
* Warrant Officer (worn by those in the beige BDUs, it's similar to the Crew Master Chief, itself a cross between the Lt. Col and Crew Senior Chief pips)
* Lt. Colonel (these are the pins that Dualla was wearing in "LDYB" Pt. II
* Major
* Captain
* Senior Lieutenant
* Junior Lieutenant

As we've already determined earlier, the "ensign" rank pin does not exist.

I'm working on finding about the Admiral pins. 

Also, an interesting story about the flight wings that the pilots wear... the symbols in the middle resemble the Captain's rank pins. There's a reason for this. The pins were also supposed to echo the rank of the wearer, but this idea was abandoned during the production. I don't know why, but I'll lay my money on the fact that it had to do with cost. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 01:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

:That actually fits pretty well with the current structure (aside from the names), but some of the enlisted ranks as they are now have been established in dialogue. For example, Dualla is called petty officer second class by Billy, and I think Tyrol is identified as chief petty officer as well. The term "petty officer" in general is also mentioned (for example by Adama when he demotes Tyrol). So that would screw things up a bit.
:As for warrant officer. Not everyone in beige BDUs can be a WO. Some of the Marines who have been identified with other ranks wear them as well, most notably Hadrian. It would probably be more accurate to say that in practice all WOs wear beige. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

::The warrant-officers-in-khaki thing has always left me scratching my head ... why single out warrant officers with a different style uniform, but have the officers and enlisted wear the same color fatigues? For comparison's sake, in the US Navy, ranks of chief petty officer and above wear khaki service uniforms like officers (hence the term "khaki leadership"), making it easy to make the "chiefs-vs-indians" distinction in a crowd. Maybe it was easier (and cheaper) to "ret-con" the khakis as warrant officer uniforms and kind of sneak by on the collar insignia (which had little chance with a crowd like this :-)), rather than go through the cost and time of developing new insignia.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, this list is a little confusing, it seems like it's a combination of marine and fleet ranks.  When you get a chance Joe, I'd like to say a side by side break down of rank equivalents, I have some other questions regarding this list but I'll hold them because I think a side-by-side might answer them.  Particularly because some of Joe's comments seem to contradict what we have known up to know.

I'm sure you guys have all seen the graphical rank guide put out by somebody (I can't remember the name of the top of my head but I'd be interested both to see the next update and how the new information jibes with the current version.  Does anybody know how to contact this guy?-- [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 15:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

::You might be referring to Jim Stevenson's article on galactica.tv: http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galactica-2003---news/the-history-of-the-rank-insignia-chart-for-battlestar-galactica-2003.html
::IMO, I think his observations and analysis are about as speculative as the discussion in this wiki.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Fred, RDM and co. are following their own conventions; they don't have to mirror real-world conventions, at all, despite the wishes of some. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)