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| ::The warrant-officers-in-khaki thing has always left me scratching my head ... why single out warrant officers with a different style uniform, but have the officers and enlisted wear the same color fatigues? For comparison's sake, in the US Navy, ranks of chief petty officer and above wear khaki service uniforms like officers (hence the term "khaki leadership"), making it easy to make the "chiefs-vs-indians" distinction in a crowd. Maybe it was easier (and cheaper) to "ret-con" the khakis as warrant officer uniforms and kind of sneak by on the collar insignia (which had little chance with a crowd like this :-)), rather than go through the cost and time of developing new insignia.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC) | | ::The warrant-officers-in-khaki thing has always left me scratching my head ... why single out warrant officers with a different style uniform, but have the officers and enlisted wear the same color fatigues? For comparison's sake, in the US Navy, ranks of chief petty officer and above wear khaki service uniforms like officers (hence the term "khaki leadership"), making it easy to make the "chiefs-vs-indians" distinction in a crowd. Maybe it was easier (and cheaper) to "ret-con" the khakis as warrant officer uniforms and kind of sneak by on the collar insignia (which had little chance with a crowd like this :-)), rather than go through the cost and time of developing new insignia.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC) |
| :::There's that too, but it's fiction, so why not? But the other other points that speak against being all khakis = WOs. For example that the uniform is used a lot (there shouldn't be that many WOs from what I understand), is also used by Marine Sergeants (and others) and also worn by a lot of young crewmen. Warrant officers should generally be a bit older I think. It might have been thought of that way, but I don't think the wardrobe department really adheres to it closely. Not that I blame them. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
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| I don't know, this list is a little confusing, it seems like it's a combination of marine and fleet ranks. When you get a chance Joe, I'd like to say a side by side break down of rank equivalents, I have some other questions regarding this list but I'll hold them because I think a side-by-side might answer them. Particularly because some of Joe's comments seem to contradict what we have known up to know. | | I don't know, this list is a little confusing, it seems like it's a combination of marine and fleet ranks. When you get a chance Joe, I'd like to say a side by side break down of rank equivalents, I have some other questions regarding this list but I'll hold them because I think a side-by-side might answer them. Particularly because some of Joe's comments seem to contradict what we have known up to know. |
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| ::IMO, I think his observations and analysis are about as speculative as the discussion in this wiki.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC) | | ::IMO, I think his observations and analysis are about as speculative as the discussion in this wiki.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC) |
| :::Fred, RDM and co. are following their own conventions; they don't have to mirror real-world conventions, at all, despite the wishes of some. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC) | | :::Fred, RDM and co. are following their own conventions; they don't have to mirror real-world conventions, at all, despite the wishes of some. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC) |
| ::::I'm just saying ... have there been any references, on-screen or in production notes, of "sr-lieutenant"? Lieutenant and jr-lieutenant have been used in scripts and on props to-date, as far as I know ...-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 06:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC) | | ::::I'm not just saying ... has there been any references, on-screen or in production notes, of "sr-lieutenant"? Lieutenant and jr-lieutenant have been used in scripts and on props to-date, as far as I know ...-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 06:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC) |
| :::::Yes, numerous times. Where, pray tell, do you think I got the above list? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::So any idea about the enlisted ranks that are missing but have been mentioned in ''dialogue'' (most notably "petty officer second class"). "Specialist" has been mentioned numerous times and is on the list, but PO2 is not on it. If that can't be resolved, it's not really much better than what we have now. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
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| I realize that Stevenson's model is just as much speculation as ours but I thought it might be helpful to coordinate with him so we can get a consistent image for the new rank insignia's we know know as well as give proposals for ranks that are now known to exist but for which ranks haven't been developed. Right now the Lt. Col. image sticks out because it doesn't show the fringes colors like all the officers I have a version from his sheet that shows it only with white fringe, (at the time it had only been seen worn by Dualla). Also I think now that we know the the insignia for Apprentice/Private First Class, its easy to conclude that their is indeed an insignia for recruit/private because without one, the trend from Apprentice/PFC to Specialist/Corporal to PO2/Sergeant doesn't make sense.
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| While I'm at it I'd like to propose a new tentative ranks structure based on what new information we now have. Of course this is subject to change when Joe gets more info but I want to run what I've got by all of you and see if I'm missing something or have something confused.
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| *Flag Officer
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| **Admiral
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| **Rear Admiral
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| *Senior Commissioned Officer
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| **Commander
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| **Colonel
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| **Lieutenant Colonel
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| *Junior Commissioned Officer
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| **Major
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| **Captain
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| **Senior Lieutenant
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| **Junior Lieutenant
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| **Ensign
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| *Senior Enlisted (Non-Commissioned Officer)
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| **Master Chief Petty Officer/Sergeant-Major
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| **Senior Chief Petty Officer/Master Sergeant
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| **Chief Petty Officer/Gunnery Sergeant
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| **Petty Officer First Class/Sergeant First Class
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| **Petty Officer Second Class/Sergeant
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| *Junior Enlisted
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| **Specialist/Corporal
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| **Apprentice/Private First Class
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| **Recruit/Private
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| Also, I want to clarify two things with Joe: First, it appears from something you wrote above that you believe Tyrol was a Senior Chief Petty Officer instead of just plain Chief. Is that true? Second, are there supposed to be separate rank insignia for warrant officers or are they supposed to be simply identified by their uniform color.
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| Finally I'm kinda wondering if there are multiple grades of warrant officer like their are in the U.S. military.
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| [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 16:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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| : I need to make something a bit clear here. Firstly, the costuming / props department has not made a new rank for every single specialist (whether that be SP1, SP2, SP3). Figurski wears the same pins that Cally does, for instance. Also, with regard to the Lt. Col. pins, one of the judges (the African one) from "Crossroads" wears these pins on his own uniform, though is not part of the Col. Military. So... when it comes to the accouterments of b.g. officers, they're not really anal about it. And speaking of the Lt. Col pins, there's at least one or two offers in the blue BDUs that wear them, simply because they're not enough pins to go around. (Or not enough on the truck, or whatever.)
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| : As for Tyrol, since there are other petty officers aboard (i.e. [[Basim]] and [[Peter Laird]]), it would make the most sense. In any event, he wears the pins.
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| : For the ranking system itself... it wasn't meant to be overly analyzed like what we're doing. As RDM indicated, it is derived from TOS—which I personally believe to be a serious mistake—so it was already FUBARed from the start. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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| : Just a nitpick and tidbit to chew on, take it for what it's worth ... there is no such thing as Sergeant First Class in the Marine Corps. If you're aiming to align with PO1, that would be Staff Sergeant (SSG). The only sergeant ranks I can recall from dialogue in the episodes (not including credits, to which I never really paid attention) are the generic "sergeant" and "gunny", so conceivable room to justify SFC rather than SSG (which is an army equivalent of gunny & CPO). Such are the hazards of trying to maintain something resembling "canon" with a combination of speculation, extrapolation, and a writing staff that introduces contradictions and revisions, not to mentioning costuming (lol for effect) ...-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 21:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
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| :: Ugh, my use of the word "canon" gave me spine shivers, I hope things don't devolve into something "Richard Arnold"-esque (a ''Star Trek'' fandom spectactle/controversy/train-wreck, for those not familiar with the name ...)!-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 22:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
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| == References ==
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| The references currently aren't showing up. I've checked the page in K-Meleon and IE6. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
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| :I tried it in IE7 and it doesn't work when I'm logged out. Logging in will display the references. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
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| : Frak. I'll try to fix that tonight. I think we may just need to update the extension... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
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| == Recent Updates ==
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| As the freeze period has expired I decided to make some updates which I thought seemed appropriate. In the interest of avoiding another edit war I'd like to elaborate a little on those changes which I think are most likely to be controversial.
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| *I have once again removed the rank of Vice Admiral, I know this has been a sore point between me and some others but with lieutenant colonel, their are now ten confirmed officer ranks which already is starting to make the rank structure pretty top heavy especially given that in the U.S. Military there are usually ten officer ranks and nine enlisted ranks. Currently we have ten confirmed officer ranks and only seven confirmed enlisted ranks (eight if you include senior chief petty officer which hasn't been proven). I think it highly unlikely that there would be such a discrepency in the number of ranks between the two corps (officers v. enlisted). I have left senior chief petty officer because I think it is at least possible that such a rank may exist, although I am by no means sold on it..
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| *As for the Marine Ranks: The ranks of private, private first class, and sergeant major have already been established both as ranks and as to their position in the rank structure. In addition, the ranks of Corporal, Sergeant and Gunnery Sergeant have been established as existing but their place in the structure hasn't been definitively established. To fill out the gap between sergeant and gunnery sergeant (as well as to confirm the places of the other ranks that are as of yet unconfirmed as to position, I have relied on Joe's post indicating a partial rank listing. In that posting he mentions both sergeant and sergeant first class as distinct ranks and also notes that sergeant first class shares the same insignia as petty officer first class. If we assume that this information is correct we then have enough information to definitively name and place all the marine enlisted ranks. That is how I have derived the current structure.
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| *I also have removed marine "lieutenant" Terry Burrell from the officer example list since, as was already indicated on the page in a footnote, his place in the rank structure is not definitively known.
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| *As noted in the footnotes, the reason for my changing the rank of deckhand also is derived from Joe's post. It's also partly inspired by my own personal belief that deckhand doesn't really sound like a rank. However as their is generally hostility to changes based only on personal inclinations (and perhaps rightly so), I have only changed it now based on the new information provided by Joe.
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| I also have a couple questions:
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| *How is that some you are able to include brief comments in your history logs?
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| *How does one upload pictures? I have a better version (though still not consistent with the others for the crewman/private first class insignia but I don't know how to post it.
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| [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 17:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
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| : I think the serious mistake here is the mistake we made in earlier versions of this article. That mistake was to try to mirror or associate Colonial Military ranks to US (and other real-world) military ranks; obviously, since the Original Series rank structure was FUBARed to begin with, there could be no clear real-life association to be made. So, yes, it may be top heavy... but we're here to report, not to make up facts or fanwank to explain things, which is what I'm starting to see here a bit, particularly with the brevet ranking notes.
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| : Regarding your questions, the "summary" line in the editing form is where we note the brief comments in the history logs. To upload files, you need to go to the [[md:|Media Repository]] to upload your files. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
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| :Yeah, the deckhand thing makes sense. That always seemed a weird choice for a rank, as it also refers to mechanics and the like in general. As for Dualla's rank in LDYB. The simplest thing is to leave it at lieutenant and consider it a costuming mishap. It's the first time she appeared in an officer's uniform, which may explain it. The explanation about a brevet promotion may appear logical, but from what I can tell, the writers don't put that much thought into such trivial details. Every comment about Lee Adama, for example, makes it sound like they consider it to be a normal promotion. And his demotion to major is actually referred to explicitly in a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd-KJ2Jscko deleted scene] in "Collaborators", even if it's a bit jokingly. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
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| == Updated Rank Chart based off of format established by Jim Stevenson ==
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| I'm sure all of you by now has seen the rank guide created by Jim Stevenson, in fact I'm pretty sure that's where almost all of the rank device images on the page come from. Anyway it's been a year and a half since he last updated it and there have been several major updates, so I went ahead and updated it might self. Would there be a problem with me posting it, and if so would people have a problem with me posting it in lieu of the current chart?
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| [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 21:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
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| :You should definitely ask him if he's ok with you updating and reworking it. He hasn't worked on it for some time, but it's still his design. This page credits him, but I also asked if I could cut the chart up like this. And actually creating a new version is another thing entirely. He might be fine with it, but you should ask.
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| :As for the change I made to your recent edits. That wasn't about the content, so much as the style. We already have an entire page of footnotes and such extensive notes aren't good to read IMO. Yeah, I've seen legal documents with one page for ''one'' footnote, but that doesn't mean it's such a good idea. Most of it is necessary here, but the stuff you added was very self-argumentative and could be shortened a lot. Basically it says that it's unclear why the decision was made, that there may be one or two in-universe reasons, but that there are also real-world reasons like an error or production realities. That's perfectly fine, but it's possible to say that in one or two sentences without adding five footnotes, that were frankly hard to read the way they were worded and structured. It took me a while to get what the actual argument was, and then I realized that a lot of it didn't really add to the point made, but just hid it behind verbosity. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
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| ::I would have asked him directly but I have no way of contacting him. Also I apologize for the "verbosity," I have a very flowery writing style and to be quite honest couldn't simply anything to save my life, if anybody would like to try to do that I welcome the assistance. However I do reserve the right to reinsert something if I believe something of value has been cut.[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 14:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
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| ::With the upcoming auction of BSG props, wouldn't now be an opportune time to replace the rank illustrations with images of actual production insignia? It would also be interesting to see the insignia used on the tan warrant officer uniforms - even if there is an inconsistency, it's something footnotable and worthy of interest.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 08:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
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| :::If they're ''high quality'' pictures sure. I decided to use those illustrations in the absence of any detailed references and screencaps. The recently added real pictures are still of pretty low quality. They are a nice complement, but can't really replace the drawings IMO. But if we can get nice photos of all pins, sure. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
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| ::::Yes, that's why the gallery of pin photos was added, instead of replacing the graphics. Jim's graphics had some inaccuracies that had to be corrected, such as plain "starbursts" w/o the Colonial emblem for the rank lieutenant colonel. The ranks of warrant officer and crew sergeant were missing and had to be "cooked up". Also, replacing the table would have removed the collar piping illustrations, which would have thrown off the text references in the article.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 22:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
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| == Additional footnote for Lieutenant Colonel insignia ==
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| Would it make sense to add an additional bullet to the footnote mentioning that this insignia has been used on warrant officer uniforms? It appears to be the case from pictures in the BSG auction catalog.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 10:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
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| : You mean the Warrant Officer's pin, right? Since that was the one mainly used on the tan BDU (with the exception of Sgt. [[Hadrian]]). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
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| :: Is there a distinct warrant officer's pin? The ones on the tan BDU's looked like the Lt Col Fisk/Dualla insignia.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 18:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
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| :: Yes, it's basically the same pin as the Lt. Colonel, but with the smaller diamond plates on the sides... very much like the collar dogs that Chief wears, except gold and silver. There's a picture of it in the catalog in the pin collection... the lot # escapes me right now, but a quick search of the PDF (or of the catalog on Auction Network) will pull that up in a jiffy. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
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| ::: Yeah, the side lozenges are closer-in than the Chief's pin, easy to go unnoticed without a dialogue closeup shot (or in auction catalog full-length tan costume illustration) :-)-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 03:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
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| == Lance Corporal ==
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| Another wrench thrown into the works perhaps (Lance Corporal Maldonaldo)? It doesn't help that he wore the black tactical uniform without rank insignia. -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
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| :Yeah I noticed that to, I'm inclined to chalk it up as an error on the part of the writing staff. None of the production materials we've seen to date recognize the existance of that rank. If such information is forthcoming I think that time would the appropriate time to add it to the chart. Until then, I think it best to leave it out. -- [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 14:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
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| ==Another Admiral?==
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| Just to be picky here, i just watched "Sine Qua Non" and i distinctly recall seeing Adama promote Tight to Admiral in his absence. It's even listed in the episode article, in the details section
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| [[User:Griffin-2-6|Griffin-2-6]] 23:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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| : Correct. Tigh was promoted to Admiral, although the promotion is short lived. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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