View source for Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure.  All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest.  IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Ummm... dude, thanks for spoiling me.  Grrr.... --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:38, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]]  12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...



== Editing ==
Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there.  I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)


Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)


== Raptor Count Discussion 1 ==
How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain?  One or two?  I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair.   Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left.  They already lost Racetrack's.  They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20.  Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense.  Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty.  If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken.  I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica.  --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

*When Racetrack gets misplaced, Starbuck says, "Mission rules say we keep going ''unless'' we lose three, . . ." Had they lost two more on the final jump, they would have aborted. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 23:42, 3 July 2011 (EDT)

== Raptor Count Discussion 2 ==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago.  She said "RaptorS 6, 12".  They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between.  Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12"). 
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen.  The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins.  The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done.  -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)


== Raptor Count Discussion 3 ==
At 33:40, or so, there is a CG shot clearly showing a total of 20 Raptors.  Since this takes place ''after'' Racetrack is left behind, this puts the total original count at ''21''.  A continuity error perhaps? Then again this works with the two-Raptors-in-the-mountain theory.  17+1(Starbuck)+2(crashed)+1(racetrack) = 21 -[[User:Bgii 2000|Bgii 2000]] 08:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


== Raptor Reconciliation ==
In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for ''Pegasus's'' production teams to construct new vipers.  Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors.  Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change.  [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)
::Actually many automobile assembly lines are being designed now to allow for multiple models to be built at the same time.  For example, BMW's new plant in Leipzig can produce all 10 BMW models on the same assembly line.  --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 22:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Jump and FTL Physics ==
BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident.  Cool.  (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it.  Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere.  If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain.  On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up.  If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools.  If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out.  Say your water tanks are empty.  Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point.  I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things.  --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Events / Politics / Theology Discussion ==
Hey all, I find it interesting that the discussion automatically focuses on counting Raptors and figuring out how the technical things work.  Can we perhaps add some discussion about the actual events of the show, and the characters?  To me, the draw of the show is the fact that it's actually a character drama that just happens to be set in space... Ron Moore has said many times that he doesn't feel the need to explain how everything works, and I think that goes a long way in making it a successful show.  The last time I really saw that was the original Star Wars.  With no explaination of all the sci-fi tech, you more readily accepted "their" world and just went along for the ride, instead of getting caught up on minutia of how FTL works, etc.  Thoughts?  Or am I just out there...? -- [[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:23, 7 March 2006 (EST)

:: I agree, this episode put forth some interesting ideas about religion. Brother Cavell, who I would expect to be putting forth a stelth version of the cyclon religion, more or less ripped apart the idea of praying to the gods for help.  Is he trying to weaken the colonials faith in polytheism in order to pave the ground for a cyclon conversion effort to monotheism?

::In politics I found the camapaign by Baltar to settle the planet to be odd.  How many modern people could be dropped off in untamed wilderness and make a settlement from scratch?  I for one would rather have the comfort of a modern ship to live in until we find a world pre-populated with friendly people.

::Finally the rescue mission struck me as odd as well.  This seems like an incredibly risky mission to send the best of the best on in order to achieve the slim hope of recuing a handful of people.  Will Galactica and the fleet just wait around for them to return?  What if they all get killed, how long can the fleet wait to see if this gamble pays off?--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:32, 7 March 2006 (CST) 
:::About Brother Cavel, he criticized prayer - not the Lords of Kobol. He said the problem was with Tyrol, not them.
:::About the campaign, the people voted based on hope not reality. They're not thinking of how hard it will be down there, and won't until they actually have to make a living.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:00, 8 March 2006 (EST)



== Music? ==
Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)


== Earth? ==
Is the planet in this episode [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least.  [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)


== Noodles Note==
I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)


== Spoilers - Right or Wrong? ==
So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring?  The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive.  Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''


== Racetrack's jump &mdash; a Cylon plot? ==
From the topic page: ''"On the very first jump out of the series of ten, Racetrack's Raptor jumps to the wrong set of coordinates"''.

OK, that could be all there is to it... '''OR''' (entering [[Wikipedia:Tin-foil hat|tinfoil-hat]] mode) it could all have been a Cylon plot. Consider: a Cylon navigation computer, interfacing to a Cylon, calculates the jump coordinates for all 20 Raptors. Isn't it at least conceivable the nav computer deliberately gave out misleading coordinates, thus sending one of the Raptors near to the planet now known as New Caprica?

# Suppose the heavy raider computer "knew" of New Caprica? Perhaps it had been there on some previous survey mission or maybe the planet was already known by the Cylons.
# The nav computer might have had a conversation with [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|''Caprica''-Sharon]] when she interfaced to it, possibly even below Sharon's level of consciousness. (Hence Sharon's "foreboding"...a little reminscent of Walter Pidgeon in ''Forbidden Planet'').
# The Cylons appear not to want to extinguish the rest of humanity, at least not now. Penning humans up in a known location would give Cylons time to figure out what they '''do''' want to do with the remnants of humanity. No guarantee humans finding the planet would result in them staying there, but no harm in trying.
# At this stage of the series, Caprica-Sharon isn't too fond of any humans and may have dredged up New Caprica from some long-forgotten database (if the navigation computer didn't already know).
# What kind of error would lead to such a misjump anyway? If this happened even once every ten thousand jumps that would be way too often for the colonial fleet. There must be plenty of safeguards -- at least as much as today's Internet, say -- to ensure the coordinates received match the ones transmitted. Ah, but there's no error involved if the wrong coordinates are deliberately sent in the first place. 

I'm not sure I subscribe to this, but am offering it as at least a hypothesis worthy of consideration.

A first reaction to this idea might be to recall the explanation offered by the Cylons when they came for Baltar's surrender: "We Cylons found an atomic explosion signature". That would seem to imply everything happened by chance. Maybe. Maybe not. Space is vast. I mean really big. Coming upon a detectable trace of a puny atomic explosion after a years' worth of dispersion is almost laughably unlikely. Possibly this was just an excuse offered to hide the ''real'' explanation: a homing beacon built by a [[Cylon agent]], or perhaps an exhaustive Cylon search of all known habitable planets. There are lots of reasons for Cylons to lie.

I find this explanation more believable than the ''triple'' coincidence of the wrong jump coordinates, then two races finding the same remote, "hidden" planet (they should have called it [[Wikipedia:Gondolin|Gondolin]]) within a year of one another. One event: coincidence. Two events: suspicious. Three events: enemy action. --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 19:43, 16 March 2006 (CST)

:I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese.  We need more understanding onscreen about the working of cylon systems before we can say that such internal thinking is happening.  In any case, it doesn't seem plausible that such detailed planning is going on in lower subsystems.  The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times.  Forcing a system to exceed its original limitations will most certainly cause errors to occur.  Remember, their success rate was 18 successful raptors out of 20, only 90%.  The only coinsodence that truly is a coincidence is finding the planet in the first place, but if you've watched enough movies and shows, coincidences are part of fictional programming and should be expected.  And yes, space is vast, but that nuclear explosion was a big explosion and today we are now detecting Brown Dwarfs (sub-stars) now that don't even have nuclear reactions going with todays telescopes.  So far the Cylons to detect a nuclear explosion from 1 light year out seems fairly reasonable.  They didn't see the planet, they saw the radiation produced by the explosion traveling at the speed of light to the location their search party was at.   --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 08:53, 17 March 2006 (MST)

: <font style="color: #d1d0a5;">Why is chance and luck (or, good fortune) so hard to believe? And what are these "triple coincidences" of which you speak? There ''are'' such things as "benevolent accidents" or "chance encounters", wherein a number gets transposed and it results in something completely different than what you expected. Take something as innocuous as a phone number &ndash;such as 555-2435. You transpose the number to 555-2345, and dial. Are you going to get the person or party you expected? No. But hey, you might stumble upon someone ''else'' that you didn't expect, and find out that that number belongs to a Chinese restaurant (you were expecting a Pizza joint), or a bank, or ... maybe a hot-sounding chick. Who knows? It happens all the time.

:Granted, the infinite vastness of space makes this event '''''extremely''''' far-fetched. It would have been far more believeable had Racetrack's Raptor jumped into "no-wheresville", with absolutely nothing around. But this is a Sci-fi drama, and where's the fun in that? Instead, the writers will give luck & chance a bit of a nudge, and have our heroes hit the ball on the first swing. I completely believe that the Cylons didn't know that this planet existed (or if they did, it wasn't on their priority shopping list), and wouldn't have known '''''had not'''''' Gina-Six detonated that nuclear warhead (In the buff, too! Wow, no tan lines!). The Cylons have already admitted that they are particularly attuned to/affected by radiation and thermonuclear events, so it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 10:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)</font>

''I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese.''

I don't get other sources of information outside the show as aired and this Wiki. I'm looking at what we saw onscreen and wondering if there are other things going on besides the obvious. You can say that's too much green eyeshade (which is quite possibly an unfashionable accessory to a tinfoil hat) in this case, but I don't consider it grasping at straws. Please read on.

''The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times.''

Do you have evidence for this? It's a good thought. In my mind, they were ''given'' the wrong coordinates by the {nav computer / Sharon}. I don't have any evidence for that -- it's just what occurred to me. If there were good evidence this was instead a component failure, then the tinfoil hypothesis loses a lot of backing. But wouldn't such a component failure leave them "Lost in Space" with no idea where they were? How would they then get back? If, instead, they really jumped to the designated (bad) coordinates, at least they'd have a chance of retracing their steps, '''which they did'''. So the evidence, as I see it, is that they were ''given'' the wrong coordinates in the first place. It's a simpler explanation for how they got back.

<font style="color: #d1d0a5;">''it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby''</font>

After a year it's no longer "nearby". I don't know nuclear physics all that well, but I suspect the volume of the nuke to be around 800 cm^3, from visual inspection of the "device" and a very helpful [[Wikipedia:Nuclear weapon design|Wikipedia article]]. Figuring 10^26 atoms per cm^3 (and this is generous) that means there were about 8*10^28 atoms in the device. Peak fission explosion efficiency is 25%, or 2*10^28 "participating" atoms, and if you build a very good device you'll get 3 neutrons released per atom, or about 6*10^28 neutrons released in a 25%-efficient explosion. That's a lot of neutrons, but they have to fill a sphere of 1 light-year radius, 10^55 cm^3. Their density would be about 6*10^-27, well below the 10^-5 or so typical empty space density. In other words, invisible.

Now that's just the neutrons and doesn't say anything about the X-rays, gamma rays etc. But I have to assume similar logic will lead to similar conclusions. A fixed amount of "evidence" followed by a year of travel in 3 dimensions dilutes the concentration of radiation well below the ambient levels even in empty space. So I don't buy the "it stands to reason" line of reasoning above.

Admittedly you guys may be correct; pehaps the Cylons spoke the truth etc., etc. But that amounts to granting the writers a '''''lot''''' of artistic license. And that's OK if it advances the storyline without screaming '''"writer's block"'''. But you know, the "conspiracy theory" advances the storyline just as well -- without appeal to as much artistic license. --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 18:23, 17 March 2006 (CST)