Editing Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station].  I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out.  Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know.  Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under.  It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following.  Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all.  I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure.  --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST) 

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run?  Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing.  My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain.  Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally.  Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid.  But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood.  Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs.  Now they have him curing cancer.  --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science.  It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role.  He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected.  We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio.  And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST) 

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something.  What did she say?  Was it "You're the father."?  I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment!  (May they rot in hell!)  --Axminster 23 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago.  The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board.  --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated.  And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one.  But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks.  Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway.  Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence?  Certainly not.  But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left.  However, yes, this episode was a downer.  It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad.  Good points though Farago.  I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc.  More to follow.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure".  As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently.  I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance).  Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality.  I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises.  Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk.  Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far.  It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies.   --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes?    I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article.  It's what they said on screen.  I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut.  Happens all the time.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)]