Editing Talk:Cylon Models/Archive 1

==Image Requests==
#Number Six's glowing spine from the "Miniseries"
:::done. --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 12:11, 26 February 2006 (EST)
#Valerii's viper optic arm trick from "Flight of the Phoenix"
::: [[Battlestar Wiki:Island of Misfit Images]] --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 12:11, 26 February 2006 (EST)
#Thrace cutting into the downed raider's brain from "You Can't Go Home Again" 
::: Done. More on [[Battlestar Wiki:Island of Misfit Images]] --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 12:11, 26 February 2006 (EST)
#Closer-cropped headshots of each of the six known Cylons --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:17, 30 December 2005 (EST)
:::as you wish ;) --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 11:20, 26 February 2006 (EST)

More?
:Thanks, it looks fantastic. I only wonder if we can't find a better picture of Doral... --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:19, 26 February 2006 (EST)
:: i'm really trying to. i think the previous was crappier than this one, but it doesn't make this a good one. by the way, the background color is painful! =D --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 15:32, 26 February 2006 (EST)

:::Agreed; Doral could stand to be better.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:45, 2 March 2006 (CST)

''"Organizational Relationships''

''The exact nature of the Cylon hierarchy remains unclear. The humanoid models, as the most evolved form of Cylon, are definitely in charge of the Centurions and Raiders. Caprica-Six's statement in "Downloaded" that Cylon culture is based on unity and that celebrities such as herself are something new implies that there is no single "Imperious Leader" as there was in the old series. Copies of Numbers Three, Five, Six, and Eight are most often seen in command positons. "''

i don't agree. can i have some other opinion about this? --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 08:02, 16 March 2006 (CST)

:What's your opinion? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 08:32, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::well, i think we shouldn't say the humanoids are in charge, but thats not the main point. i think we everybody agree about the non humanoid execute orders and do most military actions, and, when with cylon agents, the last ones are in charge. but i non-humanoids are like instruments, just like animals or sensor powered machines with no full artificial inteligence.
::what i want to discuss about is "Cylon culture is based on unity".c ylon culture is actually based on the fact that enybody is fully necessary, they are all clones, when dead another one is replacing them, and their missions are minor parts from a great plan. cylons DO have a plan, we mustn't forget it, no matter it seems not (hey, they finnaly taken their planetary colony, twice xD).
::the caprica copies were uniques were living with humans, they have really decisive missions, and they were heroes. so, when introduced back on their original culture, they couldn't engage. for the cylon culture they were dangerous, as they are leading voices who can make the cylon agent having their own opinions as the caprica copies have. they are fully IA (or whatever they are) and can question, for example, the cylon atack against the colonies.
::"Copies of Numbers Three, Five, Six, and Eight are most often seen in command positions." we know 7 agents and are mentioned 4, thats like saying "men between 25-55 y o are usually in command of younger ones". i think thats more a personality issue rather than military. when seen, we didn't know more models. in fact, they are not only the most often seen in command positions, but also the most often seen.
::and, about the imperious leader, as i said before, their culture is about to execute plan. the fact that the audience and the colonial leaders haven't met a cylon leader yet doesn't mean that he doesn't exist. by the other hand, i'm not saying that actually does, but i think we shouldn't give information far away from the series information by the last '''aired''' episode.
::EDIT.: oh, i hadn't understood "unity" the right way. well, now i think it's confusing. not beacuse i have confused it, but because the information is one step closer to the speculation instead of actual facts. how do the agents give orders to raiders or explain missions? and when have we seen an agent giving an order to a centurion? all we know is that they execute actions. maybe they do beacuse agents can't. as agents execute missions the centurions can't. imagining is true they have no leader, why have they to have militar levels?
:: as i'm not saying it must be deleted, i think is too close to the line and has to be often revisited. thats why i've asked for you opinion. 
::btw, has anybody found a better Doral pic? i'm still loking for, but it's not easy! a Cavil one was earlier found! xD
::have a nice day! --[[User:Dancing_salad|Dancing salad]] 09:23, 16 March 2006 (CST)

:::The "unity" quote is based on dialogue from "[[Downloaded]]", so I consider that to be fairly reliable. As for "Copies of Numbers Three, Five, Six, and Eight are most often seen in command positions," we have the following evidence:
:::*Miniseries: High ranking Six on Armistice Station, Eight at Ragnar Anchorage.
:::*Bastille Day, Flesh and Bone, Litmus, Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down: High ranking Five and Six oversee Cap-Valerii's mission.
:::*Final Cut: High ranking Threes, Fives, Sixes and Eights view classified documentary footage
:::*Downloaded: High ranking Three assigned to observe Caprica-Six and Boomer.
:::By contrast, we have not seen Conoy, Simon or Cavil receiving classified information, overseeing other cylons, or delivering orders. I think the statement as written is pretty fair. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 09:54, 16 March 2006 (CST)

==Cylon Hierarchy==
It says we've seen 3, 5, 6, and 8 in command, but frankly, we've seen at least one instance of each model having commmand. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006


==Merging?==
This thread is very complete on every aspect of the Cylons. I'm proposing we merge it with the "Cylons (RDM)" thread, and rename it as such, since it seems to me to explain the Cylons quite well.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually it originally ''was''; the "Cylons" article, in it's current form, is two paragraphs as an intro and a link box to subsections; originally it WAS all of the info from this page, and then some--->I don't know if I agree with this system or not, and I have been pondering it for some time. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:39, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, if it goes down to some sort of vote, I for one prefer to have this as the main Cylon artice (for the species). .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:::It seems to me that a short history article would be a better choice for the main page of the Cylons series. Perhaps we could just have blurbs farmed out to each subsidiary article with a "see also" line. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 02:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)


==Known (human) models==
Seven (7) are pictured. Isn't there another male model, as seen in the opening credits? (cut from a scene in, I believe, the miniseries--been a while since I've seen the mini)... where we see a group of several human-Cylons walking in profile. Or was that Leoben?  I might be wrong, but I thought it was another actor. --[[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]] 06:55, 24 May 2006 (CDT)
:The only male cylons visible in the mini are Leoben Conoys and Aaron Dorals. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 09:32, 24 May 2006 (CDT)
::I stand corrected. It was indeed Leoben. My bad.--[[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]] 12:29, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

== Re: Centurion Model 0005 ==

''"it is most likely that she is referring to the modern Centurions, which seem to have replaced them entirely"''

Isn't this subjective speculation? Is there any evidence that the old "toasters" can't still be walking around? In fact, seems like I read somewhere that they're supposed to show one (or more) of the old models in Season 3... (Yes, this is speculation on my part as well. Would appreciate any clarification anyone can provide. I resist reading spoilers.) --[[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]] 12:37, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

:We are fairly sure that the old Centurions have been replaced and no longer exist, and we're going to retain that for the time being.  I asked in Ron Moore's blog about this but he hasn't made a new one since April, and I think he's the only one that knows :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 13:09, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
::''If'' they are shown in series three ''then'' we will update the wiki ;) --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 14:11, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
:That article could really use some TOS love. It's perfectly adequate for their RDM role (especially if we never see one again), but considering how important they were to the original series there isn't much material on them. I may have to hunt up some TOS screenshots and put together more material on the old tin cans... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:49, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
::Rather than putting them both on the same page, there's enough material on both to support separate pages, so I would suggest [[Cylon Models (RDM)]] and Cylon Models (TOS).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 09:12, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Actually, I wasn't suggesting a TOS verision of Cylon Models (though that information seems to be present in a "summary form" at [[Cylons (TOS)]].) I was more mentioning a desire to add more content about the TOS Centurions on the Centurion 0005 page (unless the content becomes enough for THAT page to have to split).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:29, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
::::We shouldn't add TOS info about the original-model Centurions, even though they are physically identical:  only what has appeared on screen in the RDM continuity.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 10:00, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well, that sounds like a project then. Right now the 005 article has both TOS and RDM continuity categories, and all links to the old-style toaster point to that article. It sounds like you're suggestions a Centurion (TOS) maybe, and then point all TOS/1980/etc. references to that page. There's less than 100 links to 005, so it's not insurmountable... just more than I plan on taking on today. (Creating the TOS article, creating any disambig pages (if necessary), changing links/redirects to point to new article.) I'll make a note about it on the 005 page so I don't forget, though. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:20, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::I'll get on that.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 10:31, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
== Dean Stockwell Interview ==
In Battlestar Magazine, Dean Stockwell is reported saying 
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" |  Yeah, absolutely. When I was up there last time, the writer passed around a document to all of the Cylons in the cast that I got to read. It said very specifically that there are seven - [let's] call them the significant seven - Cylons, and then there's five others ones that are in this mystery mode. No one knows where they are, what they are, and what they are up to. They've so scretive that they've programmed the significant seven so that they can't even think about the other five. They can't have a thought enter their head about these other five [laughs]. I turned out to be number three. Brother Cavil, of the significant seven. I'll be back!

|}

Can anyone confirm that before the wiki is updated with the info? I had heard this before, but had not seen any proof. Edit: Really could affect Cylon Agent Spec. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:43, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

:If Stockwell's reference number is to be taken as correct, it screws up what we know of the Numbers of models. I doubt that it's right, and it DOES really make future Cylon reveals scarier than ever. I'll see if I can find the issue and date to confirm. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:34, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

::Got to thinking about this. Maybe it's kinda like a "bible" doc and til it happens onscreen, it's not "canon". Just a thought. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:20, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Grace Park also said in an interview that the Significant Seven are programmed not to think about the Final Five. It is a bible document, but they are doing the storyline with the assumption that it's true. It does explain why we will only see seven models included in the voting process during the occupation. Also, a spoiler for Taking A Break From All Your Worries includes a scene where Baltar flashs back to asking D'anna if she's seen the five models that no one else has seen. It's still subject to change, and we shouldn't include it on the wiki before we see it, but I think it will probably turn out this way. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:55, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Yeah, we've known about this little piece of info for a while, but I'm confused why he claimed to be "number three", while that number has already been assigned to the D'annas....Probably a mistake, which is tantalizing since I was hoping he would reveal his number in the interview. Oh well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:25, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::Another possible explanation is that Cavil was the third of the seven listed. If they're listed in numerical order, this would mean that Cavil is number 4 and either 1 or 2 is either Leoben or Simon. An alphabetical listing could also put Cavil third in the list depending on which names the other agents are listed under. [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Bad Link ==

The External link in reference to the twelve cylon models seems in err. --[[User:Mitchy|Mitchy]] 23:44, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

==Lack of Birth==

Since Cylons can't give birth, does that mean that if a Cylon dies it's a '''permanent decrease''' in their population? If so we should add that. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 18:19, 29 November 2006 (CST)
: This is really nebulous. Cylons of the same model are capable of sharing their memories, so it could be said that a Cylon never "dies". On the other hand, now that unique Cylon personalities are emerging (Athena, Boomer, Caprica Six, Biers), it can be argued that Cylons can die. So it's really up in the air at this point.-- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:37, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Ok, but actually I was referring to numbers. For all intended purposes, lets say there were 2,000,000 biological Cylons at the time of the Miniseries. If that one Leoben had truly died (permanently) at Ragnar Station, that would decrease it to: 1,999,999 biological Cylons at the time of the first few episodes. Then let's say 10,000 died during the Battle of the Resurrection Ship: 1,989,999 biological Cylons and so on. Sorry if this is getting confusing but, yeah I'm just talking more about loss in numbers than loss of memories. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 06:10, 2 December 2006 (CST)
:No, they can make new copies again and again and again, their ability to do so is unlimited. It is only natural birth that they cannot achieve, but again, they can make many many copies. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 2 December 2006 (CST)
:: Well, they can make a copy of the same ''basic'' model. But, when we're talking about "death", it has a different meaning to the Cylons. After each Cylon has been created from a master template (for lack of a better term), each Cylon goes on to have different life experiences. So if their husk is killed and aren't resurrected, then that is a "death", since you can't look at it like a mere numbers game. Also, do note that both the raiders and baseships are living organisms after a fashion as well, and are thus alive (though domesticated). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:08, 2 December 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's glowing Neck or Spine? ==
Even if that spine-glowing is considered a continuity error now - does anyone else recall a very short scene in the miniseries or season one where baltar on caprica has some similiar glow on his neck? It could have been a reflection (from Caprica-Six?) or his spine glowing but covered by his shirt, only the neck-part visible, although I recall it having more of a left-to-right rather than bottom-to-top-motion. Didn't find the scene yet, but i'm quite sure it exists, and it keeps puzzling me ;) --[[User:Cohan|Cohan]] 11:45, 3 January 2007 (CST)
:I think its kinda been retconned. It only happened once in the miniseries (six) and again in the first season in a deleted scene (caprica-sharon). I certainly dont recall baltar glowing in any way. I think you just have to pretend it didnt happen, like the zat guns on SG-1 that can make things vanish after three shots. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 03:30, 25 January 2007 (CST)

I haven't read the spoiler above, so I don't know, but... I think it's visible that from the picture of the final five in this article that Baltar is not one of them. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, they're all never before seen characters. Anyone have any thoughts on this? [[User:Thorn|Thorn]] 13:52, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:In the actual episode the Final Five are solid glowing white with no identifiable features, so Three's sketches are still the only reliable source we have on what the Final Five look like. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:I wouldnt read too much into the promotional image of the final five, Thorn. In the episode their faces are completely blanked out. The ones in the promo image are probably just extras and are not actually representative of the actual five. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 03:34, 26 January 2007 (CST)


==Numbering==

Is there a reason why the show hasn't gotten around to giving us the model numbers for Leoben, Simon and Cavil? They've only bothered with number 3,5,6 and 8. Outside of the episode Downloaded I don't remember the Aarons or Sharons being refered to by their cylon numbers. The only time we hear their numbers it seems to be when addressing Six or Three. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 30 January 2007.
:Because, contrary to theories floating around, there is no meaning behind them. It's just a fan obsession --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:33, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::And, if they decide to add meaning to the numbers at some point in the future, this gives them the freedom to assign the known but unnumbered agents numbers consistant with that meaning. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:24, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:::Actually I don't think they have much freedom at all. Six and Eight seem to be very important yet their numbers are much higher (considering there are 12 in total). Six was only named as such as a homage to The Prisoner, it would be incredibly hard to number the cylons when you have so many which are already fixed. Is Simon more important than Sharon? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 03:23, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::The highest or lowest numbered models wouldn't necessarily be the most important or highest ranking. The low numbers and high numbers could represent two different extremes, with the numbered models (except for Three) being more balanced. The numbers could also represent paired opposites, or various stages of life. Even if they decide to go with a linear ranking, there's enough unassigned numbers that Five, Six and Eight could be the three highest or lowest ranking unboxed models excluding the Final Five. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:51, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The Final Five aren't boxed, per the podcast. The numbers have no coorrelation to anything yet revealed that I can think of, so any further speculation on the matter is just that, and unsourced to boot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::::Yeah, I meant that Three won't be ordering anyone around because she's boxed and the Final Five won't be ordering around any of the known agents because they're off doing their own thing, whatever that is. Anyway, my point was that they don't really have an incentive to number Cavil, Leoben or Simon right now, but there is a small incentive not to number them without a good reason. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Human/Cylon hybrids ==

"With a single exception, no human-model Cylon has been able to conceive a child (The Farm). It is impossible for two Cylons to reproduce with each other, and as result the Cylons began cross-breeding experiments with humans (who can reproduce easily), which so far has only resulted in the pregnancy of the Caprica-copy of Sharon Valerii. Cylon beliefs attribute this to the apparent inability of Cylons to feel love, which they believe to be a crucial element of the process."

Given the revelations in Crossroads II, I believe that this should be updated to include mention of Nicholas Tyrol, son of Galen and Cally Tyrol.  This shouldn't be too much of a spoiler, given that Galen is already revealed as a Cylon on this page.--[[User:TyliumAnalyst|TyliumAnalyst]] 22:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

: Yes, I definitely agree with you. If you want to make the edit, feel free. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 07:17, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
:Done. In general, don't hesitate to fix such relatively small things. If you screw up in some way, people will tell you and things can easily be reverted. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:42, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

== The four revealed last season ==

I was just thinking that this page should be rewritten to be less "sure" of who the four most recently revealed Cylons are. We don't really know for sure that they ARE Cylons; they just ''think'' they are. Maybe they've all been altered somehow by the Cylons and that's why they're hearing the radio transmissions. Who knows. There are some other reasons to doubt it. For example, that would make Tyroll's baby a hybrid too.

I'm not saying we should remove them from the list. But there should be a footnote or something. I'll leave that up to someone else, since this is my first time to this site, and I have not yet learned your customs. :)
:--[[User:BevansDesign|BevansDesign]] 21:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
::Ronald D. Moore, the executive producer of the show, has confirmed in an interview that the four really are Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 21:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
:::In one of the clips from the upcoming season, a Raider seems to "recognize" Anders when they are face-to-face in a space battle, which seems to indicate that their "awakening" has also unlocked some of their inherent Cylon characteristics.  Although an actual resurrection would be pretty definitive proof, we have this ... and Ron D. Moore  :)  -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 22:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

== Organizational relationships ==
The current version of this section isn't completely accurate. The [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005#Guardians|Guardians]] are / were outside the main Cylon hierarchy. The mysterious programmers also seem to be outside of the hierarch (assuming that they are Cylons, and that they're still around). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Thirteenth Tribe Centurions ==

Hello. I just finished adding to the Earth Centurion Model when I noticed something: the Earth Centurions don't have an article, whereas every other type of Cylon does, including Number Seven. What is the amount of information required to be able to make an article? Is the information we have enough for theis model to get its own article? -[[User:Federationrulz|Federationrulz]] 11:57, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

== blood & chrome models ==

i feel like two of the three cylon models placed here from BAC fall under pre-existing categories.  the "djerba centurion" is just another variation on the "cyon war-era model" and the "inorganic" proto-six is an early form of the humanoid model... anybody agree? disagree? [[User:Psutherlin|Psutherlin]] 16:44, 9 December 2012 (EST)

:I'm sort of inclined to agree with you on the Djerba centurion, but the fact that one of them screamed in pain when it was shot--behavior that has never been witnessed in a Cylon War-era model--suggets that it might be distinct enough. It's probably better to keep the current arrangement and wait for more information.  

:On the "inorganic" models, though, I disagree, and see them and the humanoid models as very different lineages.  The "inorganics" were made exclusively from "native" knowledge, whatever the Cylons already knew and didn't know and what they learned from their own experiments.  This line of development, combining biological and mechanical parts in roughly equal measure, eventually lead to the hybrids.  This is the work that the small minority of Cylons who left on the Guardian basestar wanted to continue, and what Sharon called "an evolutionary dead end" in ''Razor''.  However, the humanoid models owe their existence to the Final Five.  The Five arrived after the "inorganic" work was well underway, and they introduced something from outside that was so radically different--basically abandoning non-biological components and making something that was almost completely human for all intents and purposes--that it can't really be considered the next step from the "inorganics."  The fact that one of them has the same voice as the Number Sixes might just be a superficial detail.  I see the two lines more like distant cousins. -- [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 19:28, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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 ==Image Requests==
 #Number Six's glowing spine from the "Miniseries"