Editing Battlestar Wiki talk:Think Tank/Deletion Archives

== "Vote" ==
;Method 1
{{support}} On further pondering implementation, it seems like creating an entire namespace (and all the little search clicky things that that adds), just leaving the discussion along and tagging it seems like a simpler solution. Also, it'd be an easy way to organize and allow subsequent discussions regarding deletion/undeletion, and navigation would be a lot easier. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:02, 7 March 2007 (CST)

{{support}} <s>If the namespace thing doesn't work out on the HB, this would be the second option. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 12:57, 7 March 2007 (CST)</s> I honestly believe this is the easiest method. We need to make less work for ourselves, not more, and adding another namespace would just add more work for ourselves. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 12:29, 9 March 2007 (CST)

{{support}} This should be perfectly adequate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:52, 9 March 2007 (CST)

{{support}} moved here... [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:05, 9 March 2007 (CST)

{{support}} A little easier than Method 3, which is cleaner but more work. Too bad this makes most of my templates obsolete :( Ah well, I'll get started on new ones. Expect a working demo on the HB tomorrow. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:43, 9 March 2007 (CST)
;Method 2
{{oppose}} [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 11:11, 6 March 2007 (CST)

{{oppose}} Adds the confusion of page moves and does not notably enhance organization over a category system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:52, 9 March 2007 (CST)
;Method 3
<s>{{support}} --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 6 March 2007 (CST)</s>
:{{comment}} Sorry, I was too lazy to type it out and wanted to copy/paste it, but must have hit "cut" instead. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:54, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:{{comment}} I propose we archive the deleted pages themselves as well. If you've been away for a while, there is no way to find out what was deleted. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::{{comment}} Actually, that's a pretty good idea. (Not that the pages are actually deleted from the database anyway, because they're still there, they just can't be accessed by anyone other than the admins. So it should be a simple matter of "undeleting" and moving.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 11:19, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:::{{comment}} I know. But most people around here are not admins ;) BTW, we could have the namespaces "Deleted:" and "Deleted talk:", undelete everything we can and put it in there. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:11, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::::{{oppose}} The reason I am opposed to this is because if we add a namespace to the system, it has to be the same for also de, fr, tr, etc. It might not be the same lanugage. So doing this just for english seems unneeded for it's own namespace. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 15:15, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:::::{{comment}} Do you mean that even in DE, talk pages are in the Talk: namespace? 'Cause at Wikipedia.nl, they're in the Overleg: namespace, Wikipedia.fr has Discussion: (I think), etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:28, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::::::{{comment}} That's not what I said. ''Default'' namespaces are pre-programmed by the software. i.e. ''Quotes'' namespace is the same through out all the wikis. There is no change in lanauge. Yes... we could rename it to their lanaguage our speficy just this happen on the "EN" wiki, but using custom namesapces for something like this Mediawiki will not work. If I go <nowiki>http://de.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User:Shane</nowiki> it formats correctly because the system known user is what ever it is "de". But from <nowiki>http://de.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Benutzer:Shane</nowiki> to <nowiki>http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Benutzer:Shane</nowiki> it will not work. So creating a newspace would create it even in de and it will always be "Delete" or whatever. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 16:49, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::::::Also... [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Wikipedia:Articles for deletion]] is already pretty well suitied and I think this is more "needed". [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:09, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:::::::Honestly, I utterly despise the AFD process. It is needlessly volatile and all I'm looking for is a means to archive deletion discussions. That's it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 23:13, 6 March 2007 (CST)
{{oppose}} "Good in theory, bad in practice." I know this is the idea I initially preferred, but is too complicated to be effective or useful. The point is to archive discussions of pages that have been deleted. The whole namespace thing is going overboard, and I'm sorry I've even suggested it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 12:29, 9 March 2007 (CST)<br/>
{{support}} --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:41, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br/>
{{support}} --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:52, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br/>
{{oppose}}. I slept on this a bit, thinking at first it was complicated but could be useful, and then waking and realizing it really IS too complicated (and stands to accidentally pollute accepted articles). Like Starbuck, a deleted page is a dead page. [[w:KISS principle|K.I.S.S.]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:35, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:{{comment}} "(and stands to accidentally pollute accepted articles)" --> Could you explain that? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:28, 9 March 2007 (CST)
{{oppose}} To be perfectly honest this all seems a bit confusing to me. and if its confusing to me then it probably is for many other people also. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 08:57, 9 March 2007 (CST)

{{oppose}} A new namespace would entail the confusion of page moves involved in option 2, and have other problems besides. I don't see the benefits as sufficient to outweigh the consequences of namespace bloat. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:52, 9 March 2007 (CST)
*{{comment}} I don't really see another namespace as a problem. What you call "the confusion of page moves" is only experienced by a handful of admins. The old Talk page stays as a redirect, so people will have no problem to find it. The benefit of having a separate namespace is that it doesn't 'pollute' the Main and Talk: namespaces (except for the redirects), and it makes it possible to search in deleted discussions only, and the possibility to temporarily restore an article without having to put it in the Main namespace (i.e. it stays hidden from most searches, as it should be). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:07, 9 March 2007 (CST)
**{{comment}} How many users search outside of the main namespace? And how many would know, intuitively, to check in the "delete" namespace for a delete discussion if they encounter a page that doesn't exist? A lot of the wiki-stuff is bewildering enough to average users already, but adding more layers of complexity might confuse even "old hands". I'll grant that the average user wouldn't even be aware of the complexity, but what I'm talking about is the person who's (apparently) trying to get a deleted page restored. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:19, 9 March 2007 (CST)
***{{comment}} Maybe not only tag the Talk: page, but also the late page itself? Or would that conflict with the undelete mechanism? (i.e. deleting a page and recreating it) It has the advantage that a user will find a deletd page faster, but the drawback is that it kind of 'pollutes' the main namespace. I'll work up a deleted-tag for the article itself tomorrow, so say what you think of it. (NOTE: More experienced Wiki users may also notice that while the page is gone, the discussion link is yellow, meaning the Talk: page is still there.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:28, 9 March 2007 (CST)
{{oppose}} Method 1 is a little easier than this one. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:43, 9 March 2007 (CST)

== Comments ==
So how would this be implemented? Instead of deleting an article, it would simply be "moved" to a different namespace (leaving a redirect in the old spot)? A lot of times deletions are made to actually get rid of an article, and redirecting would mean the article would still appear to be a valid link (and in fact, would still take you to the deleted article), effectively not deleting it. Or would it be moved, and then delete the redirect? At which point... how would people find it? Unless they understand the "Delete" namespace, it seems like it'd be difficult to know that an article had a deletion discussion that would exist, and how to find it. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:36, 6 March 2007 (CST)
: My thought on this is very simple: we just archive the deletion discussions. Then, if someone brought up the issue, we could always recover the page in question. This is honestly my preference, given the reasons and issues you brought up. Having said that, I'll reiterate that my only concern is to archive the ''discussions'', not the material that is discussed. (By the way, the people voting for Method 3 are voting only to archive the discussion itself on a namespace, not the actual article.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:19, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::Gotcha. That's pretty straightforward. I'll go support. We may want to come up with a template for the discussion page that says, "This article (Foo) has been previously deleted. For a discussion of why it was deleted see: Delete Discussion Archives:Foo". I just got confused by the discussion, apparently. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:47, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:::Do you mean {{tl|deletetalk}}? BTW, if we're keeping these discussions, we should archive the articles themselves as well IMO. The discussion would make little sense if you can't see the page it applies to. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:31, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::::The articles are preserved, just not visible to the public. If you don't REALLY delete the article when you delete it, but actually preserve it, then there'd be no way to really delete anything. Presumably usable content would get relocated to other articles prior to deletion, so anything that remains in a deleted article really ought to stay "dead" unless there are serious changes in circumstances. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:49, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:::::I created another template {{tl|undelete}}. Enjoy and criticize :P --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:43, 7 March 2007 (CST)

== Hangarbay ==

I created a "Deletions" namespace for testing. Catrope, you can test the templates over there also. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 10:25, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:Thanks, will do. Could you create a Deletions talk: mainspace there as well? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:18, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::Yes. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 11:43, 7 March 2007 (CST)

Alright, I've been playing around on the Hangarbay and produced a working example: (all links link to the Hangarbay)
* An admin decides to delete [[hb:Starbuck's Raider|Starbuck's Raider]]
* Its talk page is moved to [[hb:Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider]]. It is tagged with the [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion|Deleted Discussion template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Deleted discussions|Deleted Discussions category]]. A redirect from the Talk: page to the Deletions talk: page is automatically created when moving.
* END OF LINE. Or at least in most cases. The following steps occur only in the not very common case that someone wants to review the deleted article because he's had no chance to read it (or something else). The last step only occurs when someone thinks they can polish the article to meet BSWiki's standards (an even rarer case).
* Someone wants to review the original article because he's had no chance to read it and therefore can't make sense out of the discussion. He creates [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider]] and tags it with the [[hb:Template:Undelete|Undelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Requests for undeletion|Requests for undeletion category]]
* An admin sees this, undeletes the article and moves it to [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider]], removing the request-for-undelete tag and tagging it with the [[hb:Template:Tempundelete|Tempundelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Temporarily undeleted pages|Temporarily undeleted pages category]]. This page is subsequently locked to prevent editing. The redirect in the main namespace that was created by the move is deleted immediately. The temporary page should be kept around for about a week (or when the one who requested undeletion is statisfied), then be deleted again.
* Someone wants to improve the article to meet BSWiki's quality standards. He creates [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider/Improvement|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider/Improvement]], copyedits the original article into it and starts improving it. The subpage is tagged with the [[hb:Template:Improvedundelete|Improvedundelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Improvements to temporarily undeleted pages|Improvements to temporarily undeleted pages category]]. (NOTE: This is put in a subpage to preserve the original undeleted version.)
* Hopefully, the improved version is good enough to be moved back to the main namespace. All of the pages created above will be deleted in that case.

Used templates:
* [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion|Deleted discussion]] to tag the "Deletions talk:" page with.
* [[hb:Template:Undelete|Undelete]] to request temporary undeletion
* [[hb:Template:Tempundelete|Tempundelete]] to tag temporarily undeleted pages with
* [[hb:Template:Improvedundelete|Improvedundelete]] to tag improved versions with

Used categories:
* [[hb:Category:Deleted discussions|Deleted discussions]]
* [[hb:Category:Requests for undeletion|Requests for undeletion]]
* [[hb:Category:Temporarily undeleted pages|Temporarily undeleted pages]]
* [[hb:Category:Improvements to temporarily undeleted pages|Improvements to temporarily undeleted pages]]

Criticism is welcome! --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:58, 7 March 2007 (CST)

:That looks extremely complicated :o --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:05, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::If you take a closer look, you'll see half of the trajectory is only needed when a page's deletion is appealed to. For obvious deletions (like Starbuck's Raider), the trajectory ends after the third bullet point. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:20, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah, I noticed that. Let's just hope that noone appeals to it ;) The first three steps look alright --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:29, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::::Well stuff gets really complicated once someone decides he can polish the article to meet BSWiki's standards, but that will happen very sparingly. Appeals that require reviewing will not be very common, either. But if they occur, it's good to have a policy in place. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:32, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:::::This all seems ''very'' complicated even for me. Keeping it in one spot either Battlestar Wiki snamespace or the talk page itself, is crazy. If we had to restore  the page and then delete all the "namespaces" pages, that would just create more backlog. (i.e. the reason why wikipedia doesn't it on an approved namespace ''as'' as subpage.) [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 17:59, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:::::::Can you please explain yourself more? I can't make much sense out of your comment. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:17, 9 March 2007 (CST)
::::::::I was trying to follow the order and repeating the steps in my head on how I do programing. I got through the steps after about 5 mintues of figuring out what I would have to do just to make it work. If it takes me 5 mintues to request and undelete, as a normal person, I have no idea what a person with zero wiki know-how would do. I just didn't see it as a logical steps to be taken. On wikipedia, they do retore the page, but not on a new namespace. However, they do log all the deletions on the Wikipedia namespace as Method 2 supports. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:27, 9 March 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Did you happen to read the message boxes that appear over these pages? They briefly explain what the next possible step is. If that description isn't clear or elaborate enough, I'll improve it. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:35, 9 March 2007 (CST)
: I'm scratching my head now... Ack. It does seem overly complicated, but I don't necessarily think that's a ''bad'' thing, since it makes people ''think'' about whether or not to do it it before actually doing it. A few improvements, however: instead of tagging [[hb:Talk:Starbuck's Raider|Talk:Starbuck's Raider]], create it as a redirect to [[hb:Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider]]. No need to actually ''tag'' it, since all the tag does is refer to the "deletions talk" archive. Second thing is to actually ''lock'' the deleted article upon recreation, so that it is not accidentally edited. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:24, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::The documentation for [[hb:Template:Tempundelete]] states admins should lock those articles. The message "Please do not edit this article" is there because admins are also humans who forget things sometimes. The redirect is also a good idea. It eliminates a template and an entire bullet point, as a redirect is automatically created upon moving a page. I have removed it from the procedure above and fixed it in my live example on the HB. And to all the people who think it's sooo complicated: it's a slow process. Discussing the deletion of a page, requesting undeletion, etc. all takes time. Also, all of the templates provide instructions about the next step that you can take (i.e. [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion]] tells a visitor how they can request undeletion, etc.) I encourage people reading this to actually browse through the live example (every single link in my bullet list points to a real HB page) and read the documentation on the templates, in order to get a good idea of how this would work in practice. Lastly, a question for the admins: when undeleting a page, can you specify a new name for it, or does it get restored to its old place after which you have to move it manually? In the latter case, the guideline above should mention deleting the resulting redirect in the main namespace. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:54, 9 March 2007 (CST)
:::Undeleted pages are automatically restored to their original namespace. From there they'll have to be moved manually. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 11:22, 9 March 2007 (CST)
::::Alright, added it to the bullet list. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:29, 9 March 2007 (CST)
::::Clarified some stuff here and there, see also the diff of this edit. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:14, 9 March 2007 (CST)
== Example ==
I think this discussion has been an excellent example of consensus at work, and the difference between consensus and democracy. If this were strictly a vote, option 3 would have already been accepted and implemented, but as the discussion progressed and the ideas were fleshed out and explored more fully, the consensus shifted. And it may yet shift again (to another listed option, or maybe something entirely different.)--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:51, 9 March 2007 (CST)