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{{support}} On further pondering implementation, it seems like creating an entire namespace (and all the little search clicky things that that adds), just leaving the discussion along and tagging it seems like a simpler solution. Also, it'd be an easy way to organize and allow subsequent discussions regarding deletion/undeletion, and navigation would be a lot easier. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:02, 7 March 2007 (CST) | {{support}} On further pondering implementation, it seems like creating an entire namespace (and all the little search clicky things that that adds), just leaving the discussion along and tagging it seems like a simpler solution. Also, it'd be an easy way to organize and allow subsequent discussions regarding deletion/undeletion, and navigation would be a lot easier. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:02, 7 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{support}} | {{support}} If the namespace thing doesn't work out on the HB, this would be the second option. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 12:57, 7 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{support}} This should be perfectly adequate. --[[User: | {{support}} This should be perfectly adequate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:52, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{support}} moved here... [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:05, 9 March 2007 (CST) | {{support}} moved here... [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:05, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
;Method 2 | ;Method 2 | ||
{{oppose}} [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 11:11, 6 March 2007 (CST) | {{oppose}} [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 11:11, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{oppose}} Adds the confusion of page moves and does not notably enhance organization over a category system. --[[User: | {{oppose}} Adds the confusion of page moves and does not notably enhance organization over a category system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:52, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
;Method 3 | ;Method 3 | ||
{{support}} --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 6 March 2007 (CST) | |||
:{{comment}} Sorry, I was too lazy to type it out and wanted to copy/paste it, but must have hit "cut" instead. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:54, 6 March 2007 (CST) | :{{comment}} Sorry, I was too lazy to type it out and wanted to copy/paste it, but must have hit "cut" instead. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:54, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ||
:{{comment}} I propose we archive the deleted pages themselves as well. If you've been away for a while, there is no way to find out what was deleted. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 6 March 2007 (CST) | :{{comment}} I propose we archive the deleted pages themselves as well. If you've been away for a while, there is no way to find out what was deleted. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ||
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::::::Also... [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Wikipedia:Articles for deletion]] is already pretty well suitied and I think this is more "needed". [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:09, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ::::::Also... [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Wikipedia:Articles for deletion]] is already pretty well suitied and I think this is more "needed". [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:09, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ||
:::::::Honestly, I utterly despise the AFD process. It is needlessly volatile and all I'm looking for is a means to archive deletion discussions. That's it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 23:13, 6 March 2007 (CST) | :::::::Honestly, I utterly despise the AFD process. It is needlessly volatile and all I'm looking for is a means to archive deletion discussions. That's it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 23:13, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{ | {{support}} -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 11:19, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br/> | ||
{{support}} --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:41, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br/> | |||
{{support}} --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:52, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br/> | {{support}} --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:52, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br/> | ||
{{oppose}}. I slept on this a bit, thinking at first it was complicated but could be useful, and then waking and realizing it really IS too complicated (and stands to accidentally pollute accepted articles). Like Starbuck, a deleted page is a dead page. [[w:KISS principle|K.I.S.S.]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:35, 6 March 2007 (CST) | {{oppose}}. I slept on this a bit, thinking at first it was complicated but could be useful, and then waking and realizing it really IS too complicated (and stands to accidentally pollute accepted articles). Like Starbuck, a deleted page is a dead page. [[w:KISS principle|K.I.S.S.]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:35, 6 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{oppose}} To be perfectly honest this all seems a bit confusing to me. and if its confusing to me then it probably is for many other people also. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 08:57, 9 March 2007 (CST) | {{oppose}} To be perfectly honest this all seems a bit confusing to me. and if its confusing to me then it probably is for many other people also. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 08:57, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
{{oppose}} A new namespace would entail the confusion of page moves involved in option 2, and have other problems besides. I don't see the benefits as sufficient to outweigh the consequences of namespace bloat. --[[User: | {{oppose}} A new namespace would entail the confusion of page moves involved in option 2, and have other problems besides. I don't see the benefits as sufficient to outweigh the consequences of namespace bloat. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:52, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
*{{comment}} I don't really see another namespace as a problem. What you call "the confusion of page moves" is only experienced by a handful of admins. The old Talk page stays as a redirect, so people will have no problem to find it. The benefit of having a separate namespace is that it doesn't 'pollute' the Main and Talk: namespaces (except for the redirects), and it makes it possible to search in deleted discussions only, and the possibility to temporarily restore an article without having to put it in the Main namespace (i.e. it stays hidden from most searches, as it should be). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:07, 9 March 2007 (CST) | *{{comment}} I don't really see another namespace as a problem. What you call "the confusion of page moves" is only experienced by a handful of admins. The old Talk page stays as a redirect, so people will have no problem to find it. The benefit of having a separate namespace is that it doesn't 'pollute' the Main and Talk: namespaces (except for the redirects), and it makes it possible to search in deleted discussions only, and the possibility to temporarily restore an article without having to put it in the Main namespace (i.e. it stays hidden from most searches, as it should be). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 12:07, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
== Comments == | == Comments == | ||
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* An admin decides to delete [[hb:Starbuck's Raider|Starbuck's Raider]] | * An admin decides to delete [[hb:Starbuck's Raider|Starbuck's Raider]] | ||
* Its talk page is moved to [[hb:Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider]]. It is tagged with the [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion|Deleted Discussion template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Deleted discussions|Deleted Discussions category]]. A redirect from the Talk: page to the Deletions talk: page is automatically created when moving. | * Its talk page is moved to [[hb:Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider]]. It is tagged with the [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion|Deleted Discussion template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Deleted discussions|Deleted Discussions category]]. A redirect from the Talk: page to the Deletions talk: page is automatically created when moving. | ||
* Someone wants to review the original article because he can't make sense out of the discussion. He creates [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider]] and tags it with the [[hb:Template:Undelete|Undelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Requests for undeletion|Requests for undeletion category]] | |||
* Someone wants to review the original article because he | * An admin sees this, undeletes the article and moves it to [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider]], removing the request-for-undelete tag and tagging it with the [[hb:Template:Tempundelete|Tempundelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Temporarily undeleted pages|Temporarily undeleted pages category]]. This page is subsequently locked to prevent editing. The redirect in the main namespace that was created by the move is deleted immediately. | ||
* An admin sees this, undeletes the article and moves it to [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider]], removing the request-for-undelete tag and tagging it with the [[hb:Template:Tempundelete|Tempundelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Temporarily undeleted pages|Temporarily undeleted pages category]]. This page is subsequently locked to prevent editing. The redirect in the main namespace that was created by the move is deleted immediately | * Someone wants to improve the article to the point of being acceptable. He creates [[hb:Deletions:Starbuck's Raider/Improvement|Deletions:Starbuck's Raider/Improvement]], copyedits the original article into it and starts improving it. The subpage is tagged with the [[hb:Template:Improvedundelete|Improvedundelete template]], which automatically puts it into the [[hb:Category:Improvements to temporarily undeleted pages|Improvements to temporarily undeleted pages category]]. (NOTE: This is put in a subpage to preserve the original undeleted version.) | ||
* Someone wants to improve the article to | |||
* Hopefully, the improved version is good enough to be moved back to the main namespace. All of the pages created above will be deleted in that case. | * Hopefully, the improved version is good enough to be moved back to the main namespace. All of the pages created above will be deleted in that case. | ||
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::::Well stuff gets really complicated once someone decides he can polish the article to meet BSWiki's standards, but that will happen very sparingly. Appeals that require reviewing will not be very common, either. But if they occur, it's good to have a policy in place. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:32, 7 March 2007 (CST) | ::::Well stuff gets really complicated once someone decides he can polish the article to meet BSWiki's standards, but that will happen very sparingly. Appeals that require reviewing will not be very common, either. But if they occur, it's good to have a policy in place. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:32, 7 March 2007 (CST) | ||
:::::This all seems ''very'' complicated even for me. Keeping it in one spot either Battlestar Wiki snamespace or the talk page itself, is crazy. If we had to restore the page and then delete all the "namespaces" pages, that would just create more backlog. (i.e. the reason why wikipedia doesn't it on an approved namespace ''as'' as subpage.) [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 17:59, 7 March 2007 (CST) | :::::This all seems ''very'' complicated even for me. Keeping it in one spot either Battlestar Wiki snamespace or the talk page itself, is crazy. If we had to restore the page and then delete all the "namespaces" pages, that would just create more backlog. (i.e. the reason why wikipedia doesn't it on an approved namespace ''as'' as subpage.) [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 17:59, 7 March 2007 (CST) | ||
: I'm scratching my head now... Ack. It does seem overly complicated, but I don't necessarily think that's a ''bad'' thing, since it makes people ''think'' about whether or not to do it it before actually doing it. A few improvements, however: instead of tagging [[hb:Talk:Starbuck's Raider|Talk:Starbuck's Raider]], create it as a redirect to [[hb:Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider]]. No need to actually ''tag'' it, since all the tag does is refer to the "deletions talk" archive. Second thing is to actually ''lock'' the deleted article upon recreation, so that it is not accidentally edited. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:24, 7 March 2007 (CST) | : I'm scratching my head now... Ack. It does seem overly complicated, but I don't necessarily think that's a ''bad'' thing, since it makes people ''think'' about whether or not to do it it before actually doing it. A few improvements, however: instead of tagging [[hb:Talk:Starbuck's Raider|Talk:Starbuck's Raider]], create it as a redirect to [[hb:Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider|Deletions talk:Starbuck's Raider]]. No need to actually ''tag'' it, since all the tag does is refer to the "deletions talk" archive. Second thing is to actually ''lock'' the deleted article upon recreation, so that it is not accidentally edited. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:24, 7 March 2007 (CST) | ||
::The documentation for [[hb:Template:Tempundelete]] states admins should lock those articles. The message "Please do not edit this article" is there because admins are also humans who forget things sometimes. The redirect is also a good idea. It eliminates a template and an entire bullet point, as a redirect is automatically created upon moving a page. I have removed it from the procedure above and fixed it in my live example on the HB. And to all the people who think it's sooo complicated: it's a slow process. Discussing the deletion of a page, requesting undeletion, etc. all takes time. Also, all of the templates provide instructions about the next step that you can take (i.e. [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion]] tells a visitor how they can request undeletion, etc.) I encourage people reading this to actually browse through the live example (every single link in my bullet list points to a real HB page) and read the documentation on the templates, in order to get a good idea of how this would work in practice. Lastly, a question for the admins: when undeleting a page, can you specify a new name for it, or does it get restored to its old place after which you have to move it manually? In the latter case, the guideline above should mention deleting the resulting redirect in the main namespace. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:54, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ::The documentation for [[hb:Template:Tempundelete]] states admins should lock those articles. The message "Please do not edit this article" is there because admins are also humans who forget things sometimes. The redirect is also a good idea. It eliminates a template and an entire bullet point, as a redirect is automatically created upon moving a page. I have removed it from the procedure above and fixed it in my live example on the HB. And to all the people who think it's sooo complicated: it's a slow process. Discussing the deletion of a page, requesting undeletion, etc. all takes time. Also, all of the templates provide instructions about the next step that you can take (i.e. [[hb:Template:Deleted discussion]] tells a visitor how they can request undeletion, etc.) I encourage people reading this to actually browse through the live example (every single link in my bullet list points to a real HB page) and read the documentation on the templates, in order to get a good idea of how this would work in practice. Lastly, a question for the admins: when undeleting a page, can you specify a new name for it, or does it get restored to its old place after which you have to move it manually? In the latter case, the guideline above should mention deleting the resulting redirect in the main namespace. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:54, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
:::Undeleted pages are automatically restored to their original namespace. From there they'll have to be moved manually. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 11:22, 9 March 2007 (CST) | :::Undeleted pages are automatically restored to their original namespace. From there they'll have to be moved manually. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 11:22, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||
::::Alright, added it to the bullet list. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:29, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ::::Alright, added it to the bullet list. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:29, 9 March 2007 (CST) | ||