Editing Template talk:Cylon evolution tree

There is a step before the Centurions, which ''Caprica'' will go into. Maybe call it "prototype Cylons" or something? The [[First Hybrid]] could be added between the Centurions and the Hybrid. It could even mention the experiments on humans depicted in "[[Razor]]" (like "Experimentation on Humans"), thus not simply listing the different Cylon models, but explaining their creation a bit. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 23:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:Good points. I will make the adjustments. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:Ok... review please :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
::The problem with this template is that we just don't know enough to construct anything of the kind with any degree of accuracy. The "prototype cylons" remain non-canon until ''Caprica'' airs. The implication that mechanical and organic Cylon types descend in parallel from this source is reasonable, but the show has also implied that the humanoid Cylons were developed by sentient 0005-type models. Basestars, which have organic parts but lack sentience, seem like a borderline case for inclusion on a chart like this, but it is not at all clear where they fit.
::In my opinion, the most obvious development tree/timeline, from what has been revealed in canon sources to date, goes something like this:
::*Mechanical 0005-type cylons developed by humans.
::*Sentient 0005-type cylons rebel from human control using non-organic basestars and raiders (as depicted in the Miniseries and Razor flashbacks)
::*Sentient 0005-type cylons develop prototype, techno-organic types, such as the Raider. These are borderline sentient - "like a pet", as Sharon tells us.
::*Sentient 0005-type cylons develop hybrid types - still not useably sentient, as demonstrated by their mad, incoherent behavior, but useable as basestar CPUs.
::*Sentient 0005-type cylons develop fully sentient, fully organic humanoid cylons. All 0005-type cylon consciousnesses are downloaded into organic bodies; new 0005-type cylons are now produced as non-sentient slave robots.
::Of course, the upgrade from the 0005-type cylons to the modern centurion would have taken place in parallel with the development of organic tech, and continued after the "switchover" of the Cylon leadership from mechanical to organic host bodies.
::The problem is, both my theory and yours are not really substantiable by more than rumor and logical inference; and thus neither one deserves the sort of authoritative treatment that a template like this presupposes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Canon-schmanon. It's very logical that they didn't just start out with the Centurions, even without ''Caprica'' There has to be some sort of research into AI and robotics that came before them. 
:::What we don't know is if the Raiders really came after the Hybrids as directly as shown here. In some ways it seems like that happened in parallel. Aside from that, it generally fits. The problem is that there are some subtleties that can't really be expressed well with such a simple chart. Such as that the first Centurions are really behind all the development until they were overthrown by the humanoids. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Even without Caprica, it's reasonable that 005s aren't the first Cylons. There must have been models 001-004. :) [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 12:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::How does Tigh fit into this with the whole fighting in the Cylon War thing? We should probably accept we don't know enough about Cylon evolution before we think about implement this anywhere. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 12:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well, per our discussion at [[Talk:Timeline (RDM)#"Scattered" re-re-re-visted]], Saul Tigh's first verifiable encounter with a non-Cylon was his first meeting with Adama in -28 BCH. Any records prior to that could have been falsified, which gives the Cylons 12 years to perfect the organic technology we saw them experimenting with in ''Razor'' - ample time, I think. Humanoid Cylons may well have been the dominant model for the last 30 years of the 40-year armistice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Further, we have RDM's assertion that Tigh did fight in two wars and that his memories aren't fake, which only adds to the confusion. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 ::*Sentient 0005-type cylons develop fully sentient, fully organic humanoid cylons. All 0005-type cylon consciousnesses are downloaded into organic bodies; new 0005-type cylons are now produced as non-sentient slave robots.
 ::Of course, the upgrade from the 0005-type cylons to the modern centurion would have taken place in parallel with the development of organic tech, and continued after the "switchover" of the Cylon leadership from mechanical to organic host bodies.
-::The problem is, both my theory and yours are not really substantiable by more than rumor and logical inference; and thus neither one deserves the sort of authoritative treatment that a template like this presupposes. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
+::The problem is, both my theory and yours are not really substantiable by more than rumor and logical inference; and thus neither one deserves the sort of authoritative treatment that a template like this presupposes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 :::Canon-schmanon. It's very logical that they didn't just start out with the Centurions, even without ''Caprica'' There has to be some sort of research into AI and robotics that came before them.
 :::What we don't know is if the Raiders really came after the Hybrids as directly as shown here. In some ways it seems like that happened in parallel. Aside from that, it generally fits. The problem is that there are some subtleties that can't really be expressed well with such a simple chart. Such as that the first Centurions are really behind all the development until they were overthrown by the humanoids. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Even without Caprica, it's reasonable that 005s aren't the first Cylons. There must have been models 001-004. :) [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 12:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 :::::How does Tigh fit into this with the whole fighting in the Cylon War thing? We should probably accept we don't know enough about Cylon evolution before we think about implement this anywhere. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 12:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
-::::::Well, per our discussion at [[Talk:Timeline (RDM)#"Scattered" re-re-re-visted]], Saul Tigh's first verifiable encounter with a non-Cylon was his first meeting with Adama in -28 BCH. Any records prior to that could have been falsified, which gives the Cylons 12 years to perfect the organic technology we saw them experimenting with in ''Razor'' - ample time, I think. Humanoid Cylons may well have been the dominant model for the last 30 years of the 40-year armistice. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 02:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
+::::::Well, per our discussion at [[Talk:Timeline (RDM)#"Scattered" re-re-re-visted]], Saul Tigh's first verifiable encounter with a non-Cylon was his first meeting with Adama in -28 BCH. Any records prior to that could have been falsified, which gives the Cylons 12 years to perfect the organic technology we saw them experimenting with in ''Razor'' - ample time, I think. Humanoid Cylons may well have been the dominant model for the last 30 years of the 40-year armistice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::Further, we have RDM's assertion that Tigh did fight in two wars and that his memories aren't fake, which only adds to the confusion. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::When/where did he make this assertion? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 03:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::::Can't remember where, but there have been on or two statements by the producers, that have Tigh's backstory worked out in a way that allegedly makes sense. Yeah, the Final Five nonsense kinda throws a monkey wrench into the whole humanoid Cylon development. Aside from that, the chart pretty much fits. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
-:Total bump. Should we be including this now? [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
-== New Look ==
-It's much improved, but still not quite right. The Centurion experiments on humans, leading to the development of Hybrids, were not with the help of the Five. Ellen and Sam both stated that the Five got the Centurions to abandon those experiments in exchange for the Five's help in making humanoid models and giving resurrection technology. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
-: Yeah, I'm editing it right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-: Done. Should be much cleaner now, as far as this goes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 02:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-:: Where does the name "Mud People" come from? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-::: Oh, that's an production term used by the production staff to refer to the humans found on Second Earth. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:02, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-:::: Mind if I change it to something nicer-sounding and more descriptive to the casual reader? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-::::: Don't mind at all. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-:::::: BTW, on which pages is this template actually used? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:05, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-::::::: Hmm, it doesn't seem to be used anywhere right now. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
-:::::::: [[Cylon History]] and [[Cylon Models]] seem like good places to start. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:33, 26 September 2009 (UTC)