Editing Template talk:Characters/Archive1

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== Formatting and Defining Characters in Template ==

Thanks to [[User:Undc23|Undc23]], we have a character template that makes it easier to navigate to characters. There's probably some that choose to adjust the formatting; I've already put my 2 cents in and quickly reached my wiki coding limits. I recommend that contributors compare the format to the template used in Wikipedia for [[Wikipedia:Template:matrix|The Matrix saga entries]] listed there.

We also need to determine two additional points:

* What characters should appear in this list. I feel that characters who have been in at least 3 episodes qualify, but if they are dead for longer than 2 seasons, the entry could be removed unless their contribution to the overall storyline is significant. [[Crashdown]], for instance, may deserve retention here because his death is a critical juncture for [[Gaius Baltar]]. [[Hadrian]] and [[Wallace Gray]], at present, aren't really characters of depth. I haven't removed or added any characters due to my wiki code skill limits, so look over the template and consider my thoughts and share your own.

* The [[TOS|Original Series]] character lists would benefit greatly from a similar template, probably similarly named as [[template:toscharacters]]. Although the series ran for just a season (and 1/2, counting the dreaded ''[[Galactica 1980]]''), the "planet of the week" and "alien of the week" formatting generated dozens of characters. Maybe Undc23 will step to the plate for this, or someone else.

--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:11, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:I agree. The TOS could probably use something like this. I'm not sure whether it would be better to follow this example (main characters only) or the matrix one (to organize all the secondary/minor characters as well).  I'd be afraid of having an excessive amount of minor characters cluttering it up, but perhaps one season wouldn't be that bad.  --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:09, 28 December 2005 (EST)

I don't like this at all. I think it looks ugly on the Matrix pages on Wiki, and is redundant with our Characters category. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:59, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:Is there any way to organize the Characters category?  Maybe a category-subcategory relationship?  The character category pages by themselves are difficult to read (in terms of determining which characters are major and going to have a big writeup, vs. minor characters). Having character subcategories might be able to render an easier to navigate category page without adding clutter to each of the characters that falls in the subcategory. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:22, 28 December 2005 (EST)

::Yes, I've been meaning to give some thought to revising the categories here for some time. [[Battlestar Wiki:Categories|Let's get to work]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:00, 28 December 2005 (EST)

::: I'm torn. Last night I was trying to figure out the name of the ''Pegasus's'' XO so I could see if there was a good picture of him, but I couldn't find him. I didn't go hunting through the Category, however. Something like this would help with that (or just cross-linking him in Cain or ''Pegasus's'' articles), but I agree with Peter that it doesn't look wonderful, and deciding who should be on it and all... updating it... Seems like a lot of hassle. I like the idea of subcatagories in the Characters one, maybe so one for ''Galactica'' personell (include Lee and Kara because, really, they're from ''Galactica''), ''Pegasus'' personell and the Civillians. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:04, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Spencerian, I agree some characters place on the list is dubious, but I figured others would edit that anyway so go for it. Farago and Day, I don't think it's redundant, as you can browse characters more quickly. If you've noticed, there is a virtually identical template at the bottom of episode pages despite there being an episode category, and this template seems to have been accepted. As for aesthetics, well thats personal opinion, I like it :)--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 19:49, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:It certainly does point to a deficiency in the category system. I am continuing to mull on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:53, 28 December 2005 (EST)

=== Idea #1? ===

Been thinking about this for some time as well... Just that nothing's come to me that I've particularly liked.  So I'm going to share with all of you the one idea that's been stabbing the grey matter in my mind. 

Here's how the whole Category:Characters thing should work, using Category:Characters (RDM) as a baseline...

: [[:Category:Characters (RDM)]] (first level categories, followed by the following categories that would be second level...)
:: [[:Category:Minor Characters (RDM)]]
:: [[:Category:Recurring Characters (RDM)]] (i.e. Ellen Tigh)
:: [[:Category:Major Characters (RDM)]] (The two Adamas, Roslin, et al.)

Did we want to get specific with characters that were Cylons?  If so, then we could add:

:: [[:Category:Humano-Cylon Characters (RDM)]] 

Also, how specific did we want to go with the Character categories?  Did we want to have a category for civilians, military, and government? Do we want to have categories for Galactica crew vs. Pegasus crew as well? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:35, 31 December 2005 (EST)

:We've been tossing ideas for this around on [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Categories]]. There are some problems to be dealt with, but I'm working on a sketch to run by people. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:36, 31 December 2005 (EST)

== A dissenting view ==

I love this template because it's a lot easier to cross-navigate than the category. It's also a good at-first-glance look at who all is there. Although here's an idea--why don't we subdivide it so that we can have a template for, say, the Galactica enlisted that may or may not be re-integrated into the master template? (It may also be useful to devise a smaller template for the characters played by the actors billed in the opening credits--Adama, Roslin, Lee, Kara, Baltar, Boomer, and Six--but that may lead to problems.) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:08, 31 December 2005 (EST)

:I think the template is getting a little out of hand, but then again BSG is unusual in having so many significant characters who aren't part of the main regular cast.  But we're verging on making a huge mess at the bottome of many character pages; meanwhile I don't want some people assuming these are the ONLY characters.  I don't know what to do. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:07, 2 January 2006 (EST)

::I also worry that the template will over-power those characters who have very short write-ups and who, for whatever, reason, will probably never have a longer write-up. I mean--what more is there to say about good ol' [[Raymond Lai|Raygun]]? Yet the template is longer than his article. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:51, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:::I still want it removed. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:50, 2 January 2006 (EST)

== Standardization Required ==

We need to define the use of this template in Standards and Conventions if the majority wants it to stay. Right now, recent additions for one-shot characters unlikely to be seen again anytime soon unneccessarily fill the template and it is growing ridiculously large. I recommend that:

* The character template is used ONLY with characters that play a critical role (in life or death) in the MAJOR plot or MAJOR character's development of the series, AND
* Appears in ''no fewer'' than two episodes or a story arc

I propose the two points are mutually inclusive: BOTH must be met for a character to fit in the template. A character that reoccurs but isn't a major story-driving character (such as [[Laird]]) doesn't fit the bill, while a recurring character that sparks the course of a major character (such as [[Elosha]]) are worthy.

That said, [[Helena Cain]] and [[Crashdown]] are also good examples of ones to keep in the template. Cain darkly changes the dynamics of the Fleet (and adds a battlestar to it). Crashdown set in motion a darker change in [[Gaius Baltar]] when Baltar shoots him. [[Socinus]] was in both the "[[Litmus]]" and Kobol story arcs with a significant purpose. While [[Jack Fisk]] isn't a significant character in itself, he's part of the Resurrection Ship mutual assassination story arc. [[Thorne]] isn't a biggie, but his death led to that standoff between Adama and Cain. But [[Prosna]], [[Hadrian]], [[Mason]], [[Phelan]], [[Shevon]], [[Wallace Gray]] (among others) are not suitable for long-term retention in the template as they don't fit the two points. There are other ways to find these and other minor characters without cluttering up every article; besides, this is a wiki, so things are linked by design and easy to find with a search term. We have years of ''Battlestar'' in store, so we have to keep things trimmed in anticipation  and to keep the purpose of the wiki true.

To make this simple, let's keep debate short and sweet--one comment with one dissent. Please avoid conversation threads, and get your point right the first time. If we don't get consensus on the format, we can put it to a vote in a few days. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 3 February 2006 (EST)

===Discussion===
Hadrian was a recurring character in season 1, and should stay. Thorne, however, only appeared in "Pegasus", and doesn't appear to meet your requirements. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:11, 3 February 2006 (EST)
:On the other hand, I'll remember Thorne longer than I'll remember Hadrian. If the template gets too big, we can trim it over time. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 17:29, 3 February 2006 (EST)
::It's already too big. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 18:41, 3 February 2006 (EST)
: I agree; I think Hadrian should stay and Thorne should be dropped. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 18:55, 3 February 2006 (EST)
:: Thorne was not a major character, anyway.  He was more of a plot device. (Not a [[Cami]], but maybe more of a [[Wallace Gray]]... well, somewhat.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:10, 3 February 2006 (EST)
:::He saved my life, as well as the lives of fifty other men, you miserable frak! Thorne was more than a plot device! Erm, I mean....I respectfully disagree :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:10, 3 February 2006 (EST)

== Trim ==

I just trimmed it down a little. Thoughts? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:48, 3 February 2006 (EST)
: I would remove Laird and Thorne.  -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:17, 3 February 2006 (EST)
::It does look better, too. Thanks, Phil. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:45, 3 February 2006 (EST)
::Maybe later, but as of now, Laird and Thorne aren't making the template any bigger, they're just making it less empty. Removing them would make no difference with respect to size, their notability notwithstanding. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:05, 3 February 2006 (EST)

== Liposuction... stat! ==

I was mulling over what to do about this template size and came across the page on [[Wikipedia:Cosmo Kramer|Cosmo Kramer]].  Interestingly enough, if one looks at the bottom they see the character box containing the major characters of ''Seinfeld''.  We could do the same thing to the major characters of ''Galactica'', although we may have to tailor it to suit our needs. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:06, 11 February 2006 (EST)

:How do we decide who to include beyond the seven main characters? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:31, 11 February 2006 (EST)

::Number of episodes they're in, compared with relative importance to storyline.  I would include Tyrol and Cally, for example. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:13, 11 February 2006 (EST)

:::How about the seven top-billed characters, "special guests", and every minor character who has appeared in as many or more episodes as the least of those seven, in a given season? That list would look something like this:
::::Main cast (seasons 1 & 2)
:::*William Adama
:::*Laura Roslin
:::*Lee Adama
:::*Kara Thrace (did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market")
:::*Sharon Valerii (did not appear in "Resistance", "Fragged", "Black Market")
:::*Gaius Baltar
:::*Number Six (did not appear in "Flight of the Phoenix")

::::Season 1 guest characters (must have appeared in all 13 episodes):
:::*Saul Tigh (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Billy Keikeya (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Cally (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Galen Tyrol (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Karl Agathon (appeared in all episodes of season 1)

::::Season 1 special guests:
:::*Tom Zarek (Bastille Day, Colonial Day)

::::Season 2 guest characters (must have appeared in 12 episodes of 15 thus far, matching Valerii's record)
:::*Saul Tigh (appeared in all episodes of season 2  through "Scar")
:::*Galen Tyrol (did not appear in "Home, Part I" or "Black Market")
:::*Karl Agathon (did not appear in "Fragged" or "Black Market")
:::*Felix Geata (did not appear in "Epiphanies", "Black Market", or "Scar")

::::Season 2 special guests:
:::*D'Anna Biers (Final Cut)
:::*Admiral Helena Cain ("Pegasus", "Resurrection Ship, Part I", "Resurrection Ship, Part II")
:::*Tom Zarek (Black Market)
:::*Phelan (Black Market)

:::This seems to capture the cast makeup and "important characters" fairly well, without resorting to subjective interpretation. Thoughts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:18, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Thorne appeared in a single episode and does not deserve a place in this box as a result.  Meanwhile, Racetrack needs to be added back to it.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:10, 11 February 2006 (EST)
:Why Racetrack? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 05:11, 11 February 2006 (EST)

::A)I have a certain fondness for Racetrack, because like Helo, she was only supposed to be in one episode, but was so good they brought her back as a recurring character B) she has appeared in many episodes in season 2 subsequently.

To my personal breakdown, on a by the numbers basis(note: some characters appear in many episodes, like Gaeta, but might not even talk, so numbers aren't ''necessarily'' reflective of importance):
Of the "Main Cast":
*William Adama
*Laura Roslin
*Lee Adama
*Kara Thrace--did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market"
*Sharon Valerii--did not appear in "Resistance", "Fragged", "Black Market"
*Gaius Baltar--did not appear in "Scar", "Sacrifice"
*Number Six--did not appear in "Flight of the Phoenix"

This would move us along to the "recurring characters":
*Saul Tigh--appeared in all episodes
*Billy Keikeya--in most through "Home Part II", but lately just fell into the backround
*Cally--has appeared in 18 episodes (through "Sacrifice")
*Galen Tyrol--did not appear in "Home, Part I", "Black Market", "Sacrifice"
*Karl Agathon--did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market", "Sacrifice"

Getting tired.  Have to cut this short.  Point is, Racetrack has been in quite a few and become a relatively important recurring character, as opposed to like Thorne...who was in one episode. --!!:::*William Adama
:::*Laura Roslin
:::*Lee Adama
:::*Kara Thrace (did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market")
:::*Sharon Valerii (did not appear in "Resistance", "Fragged", "Black Market")
:::*Gaius Baltar
:::*Number Six (did not appear in "Flight of the Phoenix")

::::Season 1 guest characters (must have appeared in all 13 episodes):
:::*Saul Tigh (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Billy Keikeya (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Cally (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Galen Tyrol (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
:::*Karl Agathon (appeared in all episodes of season 1)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:00, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Merv, wouldn't you do me the courtesy of replying to my post before you appropriate its content for your own? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:49, 11 February 2006 (EST)

:Actually, this list was made from my own searchings through the character pages.  But I digress.  Big point is that if we are trimming, we really should remove "alistair Thorne"; he was in exactly ONE episode, and really doesn't seem fitting here.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:07, 14 February 2006 (EST)

::You blatantly copy and pasted portions of my post into yours. I find it mildly insulting, and I'd rather you didn't do it again as a matter of personal courtesy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:11, 14 February 2006 (EST)

== i wouldn't bother with the Number Eight, Number Three stuff ==

I noticed that Sharon and Doral seem to have "disappeared" in light of their new number designations.  May I be so bold as to say that most people know them by their "human" names?  Therefore I've decided to change the Cylon portion of the template back to their "human" names, instead of their numeric designations.  Anyone else have anything to say on this matter? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Template:Characters delenda est. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I went ahead and did a compromise so it says Number Eight (Sharon Valerii). If this takes up too much room then we should do a piped link so the template acts properly in terms of going unlinked on the page it's on. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:23, 25 February 2006 (EST)

== Deceased ==

I did a roll-back, but didn't realize it would auto-comment for me. The reson I did it is because that's not a note for Simon. That's a key to all the other little crosses we've got going. --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:08, 2 March 2006 (CST)

== One Year Later: Now What? ==

Well, we have an obvious problem now - practically none of the characters are still in the positions noted here as of the end of Season 2. We could reshuffle it to reflect their lives on New Caprica, as so:

<br clear=all>
<center>
{| id="toc" style="margin: 0 2em 0 2em;"
|-
| align="center" |'''[[:Category:Characters|Characters]] in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'''''
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Fleet (''Galactica''):''' [[William Adama]] | [[Karl Agathon]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Fleet (''Pegasus''):''' [[Lee Adama]] | [[Anastasia Dualla]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Fleet (Retired):''' [[Kara Thrace]] | [[Saul Tigh]] | [[Galen Tyrol]] | [[Cally]] | [[Cottle]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Fleet (Whereabouts Unknown):''' [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]] | [[Brendan Constaza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Costanza]] | [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Fleet (Deceased):''' [[Socinus]] | [[Crashdown|"Crashdown"]] | [[Helena Cain]] | [[Jack Fisk]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Government:''' [[Gaius Baltar]] | [[Felix Gaeta]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Government (Retired):''' [[Laura Roslin]] | [[Tory Foster]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Government (Whereabouts Unknown):''' [[Tom Zarek]] | [[Sarah Porter]] | [[Marshall Bagot]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Government (Deceased):''' [[Elosha]] | [[Billy Keikeya]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Press:''' [[James McManus]] | [[Playa Palacios]] | [[Sekou Hamilton]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Civilians:''' [[Ellen Tigh]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Cylons:''' [[Caprica-Six]] | [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii (''Galactica'' Copy)]] | [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]] | [[D'anna Biers]]
|-
| style="font-size: 90%;" |'''Cylons (Deceased):''' [[Gina]] | [[Cavil|Cavil (Fleet copy)]] | [[Cavil|Cavil (Caprica copy)]]
|-
|}
</center>

but in addition to being about five times uglier than what we have now (which I would not have imagined possible), it would hardly be useful for anyone reading about the previous 32 & 2/3 episodes.

Although I'm loathe to say this without having anything better in mind (and I do recognize the navigation convenience that this template offers), I'm going to have to reiterate my point that this template is simply more trouble than it's worth, and should be deleted outright. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:: It could be uglier, Peter. We could use flashing text and maybe a marquee or however it's spelled. However, I agree. Kill it. Kill it! KIIIIIILLLLL IIIIIIIT!! --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:25, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:: http://www.math.lsu.edu/~jude/tmp/killit.html (Note, there are 4 copies of the text in that page. Try it in multiple browsers for the full 1996 website effect.) Actually, that's not a vote. I'm conflicted on it, but the lack of a valid organizational scheme is a mark against its continuation. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think it really needs to be a much simpler list. Main Characters, supporting characters, guest stars. That way all the moving of positions and locations won't have any effect on it. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 12:35, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I've implemented Joe McCullough's idea. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

----

For all but 30 minutes of the BSG corpus, the template is fine. My suggestion is a rather *sane* one if you ask me--keep it the same, wait until October, remove whatever characters have mysteriously disappeared since then (Jammer, Hotdog, and Kat are my predictions), and then adjust it as we go. My prediction is that Roslin, Starbuck, Tyrol, and Tigh (among others) will end up in a "New Caprica Resistance" category, and so forth. Quite honestly, I think that the above is a bad-faith attempt at making this template look worse than it needs to. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 11:47, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I've just added more notations indicating status as of LDYB, but I wouldn't object if anyone removed them for being ugly. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 12:10, 14 March 2006 (CST)

: I really hate to say this (and hate to hurt anyone's feelings, particularly Philwelch's), but the template needs to go.  I don't feel that the above point was a "bad-faith" attempt, but rather points out an obvious flaw in the template. 
: In fact, right now, [[User:Shane|Shane]] and a few others working on a portal idea.  Characters will have their own portal, and a portal link will be placed on the character's pages (similar to Wikipedia's portal system, which is much cleaner and centralized). So once that's up, then we can get rid of this tumor. (I also have been thinking on a way to clean up the infobox templates as well, because I really think they could be cleaner and more organized.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:53, 14 March 2006 (CST)

::How the hell does it "point out an obvious flaw"? It's a straw man--there is absolutely no way the character template will ever look like it. The portal would require two click to get from any one character page to any other character page, and I don't see how the *current* template (i.e. the one we're using) is at all ugly or a "tumor". Please, let's discuss the template we are currently using and not the straw man that Peter drew up as part of his deletion campaign. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:26, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I was illustrating that the current organizational scheme would not be practical going into the future. If you don't see how the current template is ugly or a "tumor", I doubt I can convince you otherwise, but that's the version that my criticism and deletion vote are leveled at. De gustibus non est disputandum. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:46, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::::Then why did you even waste your time creating that straw man? In any case, I've created a separate idea based on Joe McCollugh's suggestion that uses a far more flexible organizational scheme. In fact, I'm going to implement that idea right now to end this dispute forever. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Character Portal ==

[[User:Shane|Shane]] is working on (amongst other things) a Character portal. I think this would be an excellent way to expose the character articles in an organized manner. Rather than trying to cramp all the characters into a very limited space within the template, or ballooning the template to epic proportions, you'd have a whole page to work with. It doesn't exist yet, but I thought I would put it forward as a possible future solution to the whole template problem. Rather than having to support the weight of the full template, a smaller template could be employed with a link to the portal, or just a link (if we really need to save space). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:27, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:I think the template is small enough now to not look out of place at the bottom of any character bio large enough to merit inclusion. A portal in addition to the template would be good, though. There is some problem revolving around what to do with Cylons when we have more than one character from each model--while most of them are interchangeable within the same model, the Sharons and Sixes aren't. I also don't think the template will continually get larger, as over time we will remove characters like Hadrian and Jammer who fail to make an appearance. Once Season Three begins in earnest, we can start removing characters who mysteriously disappear. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 14:14, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:The dead characters should not even be in the template 24 hours after the show. They are dead. i.e. not coming back. If we were going to reference them, they should be in a deacased template. A portal will fix a lot of the navagation issues within Charaters pages. Cylons are not Characters per say, so they have their own Portal in my design [[User:Shane/Main_Page|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 14:17, 14 March 2006 (CST)

::That's silly. The old episodes still exist after the characters die, and deceased semi-major characters (like Billy and Crashdown) remain characters. It's not as though we'd even delete their articles — if the template is going to continue to exist (which I by no means advocate), it must accurately reflect the cast throughout the entire series, not just the present moment. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:14, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:::It's that constraint that dooms the template to grow to unreasonable proportions. I'm not disagreeing with the idea (people catching up on the series via DVD, iPod, or i18n broadcasts deserve character navigation too), just pointing out the fact that it becomes a "closed system" within which the entropy is bound to increase over time. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:11, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== Template:Characters Delenda Est ==

I'm calling a vote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:01, 16 March 2006 (CST)

===<s>Keep</s>===
# <s>[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:23, 17 March 2006 (CST)</s>

===<s>Delete</s>===
#<s>[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:00, 16 March 2006 (CST)</s>
#<s>[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:08, 16 March 2006 (CST)</s>
# <s>--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 02:50, 17 March 2006 (CST)</s>

== Template refactoring/deletion vote ==

Since you called a vote on the old version that I've replaced with a simpler organizational scheme I'm closing the original vote and calling a new one to avoid ambiguity. The new template is a minimal, three-line template intended to peacefully coexist with a more comprehensive portal. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:I remain baffled by the criteria used to select supporting and recurring characters. Why is Tory Foster (4 episodes) listed, while Socinus (9 episodes) is not? Why don't Gaeta, Tyrol and Dualla get first names? Why are Kat, Hot Dog and Racetrack just given call signs? Why is Cottle referred to as "Dr." while Baltar is not? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:30, 17 March 2006 (CST)
::OK, Tory Foster isn't listed, and Cottle isn't referred to as "Dr." As for the others, they're primarily known by their last names or callsigns anyway and it saves space. You're the one complaining about it being too large. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:34, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:::I'm complaining about it being too large, too inconsistant, inherently subjective and not very useful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:36, 17 March 2006 (CST)
::::I've addressed the size issue. I'm addressing the consistency issue as well as I can. If you wish, we can come up with less subjective criteria, although I've addressed that as well--the "main" characters are the ones portrayed by actors listed in the opening titles, the "supporting" characters are the ones who appear in almost every episode for a long stretch of time and the "returning guests" are relatively important guest stars who show up repeatedly. As for use, its use is for navigation, and it's a lot quicker at that than clicking back and forth to a template or portal page. Now, if you're willing to provide constructive criticism, I'd be willing to work with you. I think you'll notice that I've made good faith attempts at addressing all your concerns so far, but there comes a time when you need to actually do something constructive yourself instead of spouting criticisms and Latin slogans. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:42, 17 March 2006 (CST)

===Keep refactored version (based upon main/supporting/returning guest organization)===
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)

===Revert to original version (based upon command/flight/civilian/etc. organization)===

===Delete outright===
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:03, 17 March 2006 (CST)
#[[User:Day|Day]] 03:34, 17 March 2006 (CST) Better, but still has issues.

===Discussion===

Note: I really don't think we need to delete this now. It's simple and it lists only the major characters on the show. Not everyone. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 13:32, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:That's the intention. You might notice I also linked to your portal so hopefully they can be companion pieces of sorts :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::Yeah. I saw that. Good idea. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Can we get any more input on this? Issues I still have:
*Why do Kara Thrace, Lee Adama, and Karl Agathon get callsigns, but not William Adama?
*Why do Kara Thrace, Lee Adama, and Karl Agathon get proper names, but not Kat, Hot Dog and Racetrack?
*Why don't Gaeta, Tyrol and Dualla get first names?
*Why is Number Six listed as Number Six, while Number Five is listed as Aaron Doral and Number Eight is listed as Sharon Valerii?
*What criteria are we using to chose characters for this template? Is it just whatever "feels right"?
**Why is Leoben (2 appearances) listed, but not Number Three or Cavil (also 2 appearances)?
**Why Racetrack but not Socinus? 
***This is not to say that I think we ''should'' list Socinus, who frankly I don't think is a widely loved character. But I think we should be able to articulate why not, apart from a vague feeling that he's probably not very important. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:02, 23 March 2006 (CST)

*"Starbuck", "Apollo", and "Helo" are frequently used in dialogue: "Husker" is not. Starbuck, Apollo, and Helo served as pilots during the series, Adama did not.
*Because their real names are used more often. Also, to save space.
*Because their first names have only appeared once or perhaps twice in the series, and to save space.
*Because that's what names we know them best as.
*I've already answered this question. If you want to help develop a less subjective criteria I would welcome that, but you've done no constructive work on this template yet so I'm not holding my breath. There is already some objective criteria: if the actor appears in the opening titles, their character is listed under "main", in the order that their name appears in the titles.
**Cavil appeared in both parts of a two-part episode: by that standard, anyone appearing in all four hours of the Mini-Series counts as four appearances. Leoben has made three appearances counting the end of "Lay Down Your Burdens" and will likely appear again at the season premiere.
**Racetrack is more recent. If it makes you feel better we can remove her. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 23 March 2006 (CST)

I offered a potential criterion for minor characters above, about six weeks ago. Maybe you could read it and let me know what you think. As for the last point, it doesn't make me "feel" any particular way at all; I'm playing devil's advocate. I think that without any clear guideline to point to, someone will inevitably want to know why a certain character is listed while another one is not, and the template will balloon out of control again like it was before you refactored it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:56, 23 March 2006 (CST)

:The template will not balloon out of control, you have my personal assurance on that. I don't think we have anything else to discuss here since your contributions to this template are not constructive. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 19:46, 24 March 2006 (CST)

::I take it that you've read my suggestion for inclusion criteria above and found them wanting. May I please ask you why? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:46, 25 March 2006 (CST)


== Crashdown to Number Three ==

As Crashdown has been dead a full year and wasn't a gigantic character like Admiral Cain or something, I suggest that we remove him and replace his space with a link to Number Three, as she will be important in season 3.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 11:16, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
:Agree. Maybe the priest also. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 11:17, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
:Residence in the character template is a '''privelege''', not a right. You have to earn your keep. I have no strong feelings about this particular issue (Crashdown vs. 3, etc), but I would like to see us avoid the uncontrolled growth that occured before. So I'm all for substituting out lesser/dead characters if new ones look like they need to brought in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
::Yes, I try to "keep the population in check": keep a constant number, just switching dead/minor characters for major ones.  (Admiral Cain was so big that she should kind of stay on even though she's dead, simply because she had such an impact on the show).  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 23:55, 9 August 2006 (CDT)
:::If there are no objections, I'm making the switch.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 23:56, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

== Sort order ==

Forgive me, but sorting by credit order doesn't make sense. Alphabetical order is predictable, easy to recall and verify, and less overtly arbitrary. Barring an objection with reason, I'll return to alphabetization shortly. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 23:47, 9 August 2006 (CDT)
:Easy: the way they are ordered in the credits roughly reflects the characters' importance in the eyes of the writers (or whoever sets the credit sequence). It's not "arbitrary" if it's based on a deliberate decision made for the show. It's also trivial to verify opening credit order, as we've all seen the opening credits a million times and can check them at a moment's notice if they can't repeat them from memory. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:40, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::It is overtly arbitrary because it is not a typical way of sorting things (except ''actors''<nowiki>'</nowiki> names in credits). It is vastly easier to verify alphabetization than retrieve a DVD just to watch the credits. The idea of memorizing the credits is hilarious to me. Furthermore, the credit order can change.

::It is less useful to sort by contract-defined pseudo-importance than alphabetize for the simple reason that the credit order won't help anyone find an item in the list; that is the purpose of sorting anything in the first place.

::I still don't think you've made a convincing argument for sorting by the credits, so I will revert eventually barring that or someone else's agreement with you. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 23:06, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

:::The opening credit order hasn't changed since the first season. (Not sure about the miniseries). As for memorizing the credits, sometimes I forget that not everyone has a photographic memory. There are six people in the list. The difficulty of finding someone in a six-item list is trivial. Organizing them alphabetically is unnecessary and obsessive-compulsive. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:31, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::::This keeps changing. To throw my two cents in, I have to agree with the ABC sorting. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 00:13, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

The opening credit order is unchanged since the miniseries (except the miniseries bills Callum Keith Rennie before Grace Park, largely because Sharon wasn't a major character (or more than one character, for that matter) until the first season. Since we've already subdivided the template according to the actor's status within the show's production (stars, supporting actors, and recurring guest stars hold different types of contracts), it makes sense to order them that way as well. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
:Welll we don't need them to be in order. If we didn't have the "Supportings", "Main", "etc", section then I would suggest it that way, but since we already sperate the three sections, I don't think we need to keep in the order of the credits. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 00:35, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
::It just looks out of place to me to have, for instance, Apollo before Adama. The credit sequence also gives a logical sequence: first the leaders of the fleet, then the top pilots, then Baltar and the Cylons. Organizing alphabetically just scrambles them for no good reason (making Admiral Adama "easier to find" within a list of six characters is not a good reason). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:39, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
:::To be less kind, ordering by the credits also looks sloppy and unprofessional. The simple reason is that it is in no way apparent they are sorted at all; I, for one, didn't realize it. Unsorted lists speak to haphazard work, and the ''appearance'' of being unsorted speaks no less loudly.

:::Should you like another reason, it is inconsistent to sort the different tiers of characters differently, yet we cannot reasonably use the same ordering scheme for recurring guests. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 03:08, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
::::And it looks anal-retentive and obsessive-compulsive to have them all alphabetized, especially when it screws with the (in my eyes better) organization scheme used in the credits (first the leaders of the fleet, then the pilots/young officers, then Baltar, then the main two Cylon characters). If you'd like, we could sort the other categories by importance or frequency of appearance as well. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Actually, I was using the inapplicablity of such a method of sorting to the other categories as a argument against that ordering scheme for the main characters, so, no, I would not like that. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 03:06, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::::As with every other series out there, the credits are sorted by the importance of the actor and not the importance of the character. Therefore, I find the argument that the credits are sorted by the character's importance to be extremely weak at best. Secondly, alphabetical order makes sense, seeing as that how lists are typically sorted barring any other additional criteria that can be sorted. After all this template is named "Characters in the Current Series", not "Characters in the Current Series sorted by importance". Keeping that in mind, I concur with those who believe that alphabetically sorting this template will make the template make more sense out there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 08:07, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::It's also not called "Characters in the Current Series sorted alphabetically". Clearly they must be sorted somehow; whether they are sorted logically or symbolically is a separate question. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:06, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
::::Also, I need to make another point that just came to mind. Since LDYB, we have may spot changes. Take for instance Laura Roslin who is no longer president. Based off the "leaders first, military second and Cylons last" ordering scheme supported by Philwelch, Roslin would be moved immediately before the Cylons. Actually, the list of just the main characters would look very much like this: [[Gaius Baltar]] (Commander and Chief, President), [[William Adama]] (Admiral), [[Lee Adama]] (Commander), [[Kara Thrace]] (civvy), [[Laura Roslin]] (civvy), [[Number 6]], and [[Number 8]]. Food for thought, eh? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Yes, except Roslin quickly assumes something resembling her former role in the resistance while Baltar is still a Cylon collaborator, so it works out. Besides, we're back to the fleet (and the general status quo) within the first ten episodes anyway, just like Season Two. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:06, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

== Terminology issue ==

Okay, something is bothering me slightly, and I want someone's opinion on it before I shake the apple tree.  The template is "Characters in the Reimagined Series", but we have a section that refers to "Recurring Guests".  I should point out that the ''actors'' are the recurring guests, the ''characters'' are always there, even if they're not in the focus of a particular episode.  I'm suggesting we drop the "guests" part off there.  A minor nitpick, but one that has meaning within.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 15:35, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
: Thanks! You are indeed correct and I've gone ahead and fixed the error. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:42, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

== Adding Simon, Shortening Kat ==

Personally, I find it very odd that Simon isn't in the Character Template. Admittedly, he's one of the least frequently appearing of the Cylon characters, but he seems important enough to me that he should be included in the recurring characters.

This raises the issue of space in the template. I don't think anyone there deserves to be taken out. However, perhaps we could shorten the link for Kat. I don't see any real reason why we have her full name there. It's virtually never mentioned; she's pretty much universally referred to as Kat. At least with Lee and Kara, they are referred to as their given names and call signs with about equal frequency. Truncating Kat's link to merely "Kat" wouldn't confuse anyone looking for her, it would keep it in line with the links for "Hotdog" and "Racetrack," and it would afford Simon some space. 

I didn't want to make any changes without hearing what others thought? Does listing her as 'Louanne "Kat" Katraine' really add anything to the template? And is there any particular reason to keep Simon on the list?-- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 15:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: No one responded to my proposal, so I was so bold as to go ahead and include Simon. If the decision is a poor one, it isn't permanent.
: I also noticed that in the other columns, the Cylons had been put at the end of the list, regardless of alphabetical order. I've done the same thing with the recurring category, so now Conoy, Doral, and Simon are at the end. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 21:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::Actually, they were in alphabetical order by last name with ties broken based on alphabetical order by first name (or the word "Number"). "Valeri" comes last, explaining her place. The rest of the Cylons that were last ended up that way because they have no last name. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 00:07, 17 November 2006 (CST)

Could anobody tell me why Cavil is considered Supporting Character while Kat is considered Recurring? Cavil appeared in five episodes or so and Kat appeared in about fifteen... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 21:57, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== Billy & Ellen ==

I say we should remove Billy and Ellen, because they're dead. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:37, 26 November 2006 (CST)
: No, because they are important to the overall story. Both were major recurring characters during the first two seasons, whose influence lingers. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:49, 26 November 2006 (CST)
::I pulled them into a "deceased" category with Kat and Crashdown. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:36, 12 December 2006 (CST)
:::I think this is a great idea and I can't understand why you reverted your edits. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:33, 12 December 2006 (CST)
::::Because I hate this template and any edit that makes it bigger makes me want to stab my eyes out. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:30, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::::The template isn't ''that'' bad. If anything, we could use the show/hide function to reduce the initial size of the template. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Moving Cavil in Recurring ==

There was no reason for Cavil to be smack in the middle of the Recurring characters. The cylons without last names go at the end of the list. So Cavil should be right in front of Simon. Unless people think "Cavil" is a last name. In which case Cavil should have been before Leoben and Hotdog. Either way, Cavil was in the wrong place. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 02:02, 11 February 2007 (CST)
: I guess that's fine, although it all appears to be nothing more than reorganizing chairs on the ''R.M.S. Titanic'' to me... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:07, 11 February 2007 (CST)

== Chuckles...? ==

I've gone ahead and removed [[Chuckles]] from the deceased template, since he's not that important of a character; he's not Kat, Billy, or Jammer. Unless someone disagrees, of course, then we can discuss the issue. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 20:46, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

== Kendra Shaw? ==

Does Kendra belong here? Granted, she is the main drive behind "Razor", but she's not referenced otherwise. For that matter, if we were to go with Kendra, why not list Fisk as well? Fisk had a lot more screen time than Kendra between "Razor" and the Season 2 arc. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 17:37, 29 November 2007 (CST)
:The template is already somewhat cluttered. I'd leave it as it is. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:58, 29 November 2007 (CST)
::To clarify, would "as is" be before or after the Kendra addition? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 19:38, 29 November 2007 (CST)
:::Without. Yeah, I like the character, but she appears only in one episode. Cain is borderline too for me. She has some significance, but I think the ones listed here should have (had) some more interaction with other characters. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:17, 5 December 2007 (CST)
:::I'd put Fisk and Kendra in, personally. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:12, 5 December 2007 (CST)
::::I think we need to trim it down and maybe start some other templates. "Pegasus Crew" "Galacitica Crew". That would clean up this template real quick. :) The original purposes of this template was for main characters that have recurring interactions in the series. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:37, 5 December 2007 (CST)
:::::Hmm... Not ''that'' keen on the idea. A lotta clutter, if you ask me. Best to keep this template with characters who are significant to the overall series... neither Kendra nor Fisk really fit. Cain does, but that's because her influence is felt throughout the series.  -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 23:41, 5 December 2007 (CST)
== "Dead" Characters into a new template? ==

This template getting way to big for everything. Maybe we split the dead to a new template? [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 14:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
:Sounds like a plan. At the speed they're killing off characters now, the deceased section will like double in size before the mid-season break. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 14:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
:Ditto what's been said. Probably best to leave a link in this template for the dead people, though. Perhaps a category for dead people is also in order now? (Something that can be auto-applied from the Character Data template?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
::I hate to do that as it makes the alpha order of the categories wrong. :| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 18:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
:::[[Template:Dead Characters|New template made]]. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
::::I just had a rather morbid idea, we could make a page listing every death in the series (including manner thereof). Could be quite interesting. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)