Editing Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 1
| number = 1
| start = July 28th, 2005
| end = November 31st, 2005
| items =  {{archive-item|1|Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness}} {{archive-item|1|Home II}} {{archive-item|1|Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons}} {{archive-item|1|Untangling Season 2|end=y}}
|}} 

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 2
| number = 2
| start = January 7th, 2006
| end = March 22nd, 2006
| items =  {{archive-item|2|6 months?}} {{archive-item|2|Duration of Home, Part I}} {{archive-item|2|Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"}} {{archive-item|2|When is the Presidential Election?}} {{archive-item|2|Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes}} {{archive-item|2|The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|2|Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note}} {{archive-item|2|Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 3
| number = 3
| start = March 22nd, 2006
| end = November 19th, 2006
| items =  {{archive-item|3|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|3|Days v. Day}} {{archive-item|3|Dating "The Captain's Hand"}} {{archive-item|3|Future Events}} {{archive-item|3|"Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 4
| number = 4
| start = November 19th, 2006
| end = February 27th, 2007
| items =  {{archive-item|3|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|4|the Colonial calender}} {{archive-item|4|The Hero Continuity Discrepency}} {{archive-item|4|Unfinished Business}} {{archive-item|4|Justification of the change of the timeline}} {{archive-item|4|Episode timeline slight adjustment}} {{archive-item|4|Major Cleanup Needed}} {{archive-item|4| I propose to shift "Lay Down Your Burdens Parts I & II" over about 10 days.}} {{archive-item|4|Another Colonial Date in "Precipice"}} {{archive-item|4|Split Idea}} {{archive-item|4| Ancient history|end=y}}
|}}

== Adama meeting Saul == 

Adama and Saul have said on several occasions that they've known each other for 30 years. Why does this article say they met 20 years before the attacks? Shouldn't it be 30? {{unsigned|Zethon}}
:[[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques#Adama/Tigh Meeting|According to Bradley Thompson]] he is exaggerating, and it's closer to 23 years. Maybe a note about that would help. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:20, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
::Definitely note it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 16:35, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
:::[{{fullurl:Timeline (RDM)|diff=127013&oldid=118059}} Already did so] :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:42, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

=="Hero" Timeline Issues, revisited==
The alterations to the established timeline made in "[[Hero]]" continue to be problematic, and have allowed portions of [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Felix Gaeta]]'s articles to be contaminated with what I consider to be fancruft.

'''To review:'''
All materials prior to "[[Hero]]", as well as [[Sources:Adama's Dossier|Adama's Dossier]] from that episode, indicate that Adama had served on ''Galactica'' for several years:
*Gaeta: "And may I also take this opportunity to say it's been both a pleasure and an honor to serve under you these past three years." ([[Miniseries]])
*Tyrol: "Sir, on behalf of Deck Crew Five I'd like to present a token of our esteem and appreciation for the many years you've served as commanding officer of this ship." ([[Miniseries]])
*Adama: "Chief Tyrol's been under my command for over five years" ([[Litmus]])

No indication is made that either Gaeta or Tyrol served under him on any other ship than ''Galactica''. In fact, when listing the ships he's served on in the past, Tyrol fails to mention ''Valkyrie'':
*Tyrol: I've served on battlestars since I was 18 years old. The Pegasus, Columbia,  Atlantia, Galactica-- ([[Resistance]]).

In real-world militaries, it would be quite remarkable for lower-ranked officers like Gaeta and NCOs like Tyrol to transfer from ship to ship with their commander. The long-running team of Tigh and Adama is remarkable as it is.

The timeline provided by [[Sources:Adama's Dossier|Adama's Dossier]] fits very well with the information above, placing his service on ''Valkyrie'' from -9 to -6 years BCH, and his service on Galactica from -6 to 0 years BCH. This is enough time for both Tyrol and Gaeta to have served with him for five and three years respectively, on ''Galactica'', and enough time that Tyol's comment about the "many years you've served as commanding officer of this ship" makes sense.

Problems ensue when we try to take the dialogue from "Hero" into account:
*Adama: "That's right. He's one of mine. Disappeared about three years ago. We think that he was captured."
*Novacek: "Well, sir, it's like this. The enemy had me locked in a cell for three years."
*Roslin: "About a year prior to the Cylon attack on the Colonies, you were on a mission with Admiral Adama. Is that correct?"
*Thrace: "Novacek was held on a baseship for three years[...]"

All this indicates that Adama was transferred to ''Galactica'' on -1 BCH, which demands that (a) Tyrol and Gaeta served with him on ''Valkyrie'' and transferred with him to ''Galactica'', and (b) completely invalidates Tyrol's statement from the Miniseries about Adama's lengthy command of ''Galactica''.

My preference here is to simply throw out the dialogue from "Hero", and put Bulldog's aborted mission at -6 BCH - "three years ago" should be changed to "eight years ago", and "about a year prior to the Cylon attack" should be changed to "about six years prior...". Where relevant, the contradiction should be footnoted.

The alternative, attempting to reconcile Gaeta and Tyrol's backstory with Adama's, is impossible, and should not be attempted. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:15, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

:I couldn't agree more. ''Finally'' someone points that out. Usually I don't take printed documents like that at face value, because there are small errors in a few them. But as you said, other evidence always indicated that Adama served on ''Galactica'' for a few years. Not just Tyrol's very explicit line, but also how others like Gaeta and Kelly act around him. "Hero" messed that up, but I always chose to see it as an error in dialogue. For me it makes more sense to place the Stealthstar mission at maybe 8 years or so before the series. Thinking that Tyrol ('''and''' Gaeta!) followed him from ''Valkyrie'' to ''Galactica'' just complicates things unnecessarily. It's beyond me why the more silly way was chosen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:23, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
::It's clearly a mistake by the writers, but I'm skeptical about us choosing new dates for events as opposed to those established (however misguidedly) onscreen, this seems like just another form of fancruft. As Mr. Farago states, it is impossible to reconcile without delving into fancruft territory, so how about we just "teach the controversy", adding short notes and linking to an article explaining the discontinuity. My personal opinion is that [[Adama's Dossier]], with its two seconds of screentime, was not intended to have been taken as seriously as we tend to do here, it having been just [[Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques/Archive8#Battlestar_Night_Flight.2F.28Era.29smus|produced quickly by the art department]], without significant guidance from the executive producers.[[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:43, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
::Frankly, the contradictions should be noted. I agree to "teaching the controversy", as OTW suggested, noting the discrepancies in the appropriate articles. "Hero" is a big error when looking at the overall picture, but one that we can't ignore by simply "throwing out the dialogue", which is like throwing out the baby with the used bathwater. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 19:55, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
:::I'd normally agree. It seems absurd to let a prop visible for two minutes overrule four lines of episode dialogue, and our continuity policy, which I personally promulgated, favors newer content over older in the face of conflicting evidence. I'm loathe to make an exception, since that leads to a slippery slope, but I feel like we can get away with it here for a couple reasons:
:::*In addition to the dossier, there are at least five episodes corroborating the earlier version, vs. just Hero in favor of the later version.
:::*The early version is integral to Tyrol's backstory and can't be reconciled with the later version.
:::*As a "one-off" not connected to the overall story arc, it seems unlikely that Novacek or the events of "Hero" will be referenced again.
:::In light of this, I feel comfortable making the Miniseries/Litmus/Resistance/Dossier (and, as I noted some time ago in [[Talk:Hero/Archive1#Possible_Discontinuity]], "Act of Contrition" and "The Farm") consensus the "official" version, and footnoting the "Hero" version. If necessary, a separate page explaining the particular continuity glitch and our policy to it could be drafted and linked. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:22, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::That seems about right, how about this compromise: In articles relating to [[Hero]] we use the "Hero version", footnoting the "official version" and then in the rest of the wiki do the opposite. If Battlestar Galactica isn't entirely self-consistent, Battestar wiki doesn't need to be either. We know that RDM values a lot of things above continuity. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 04:40, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::Sad, but true. That said, we have the opportunity to consistently document inconsistencies. While RDM is more bound to his muse and to storytelling, I say we throw in our lot with accuracy, consistency, and concision (anf if things occasionally get a little foot-notey we can live with it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 05:29, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::It's infinitely more absurd to assume that both Tyrol and Gaeta followed him to ''Galactica''. I cringe every time I read that somewhere. But it's not just about his dossier. Dialogue in the Miniseries heavily implied, if not established, that he served on ''Galactica'' for several years. Then there are several dates in other episodes. I really don't understand this rule that there can't possibly be an error in dialogue. This isn't the only case where things were bent around so that the dialogue can stay as it is. Yeah, the prop/art department has made some errors in the past, and ones that can easily be ignored, but this is a case were their stuff fits (though I agree that it's taken a bit too seriously now and then) and the writers contradicted their own work. Usually people throw up their arms at the slightest hint of fanwanking and then something like this gets approved by everyone...
::::As for the "[[Hero]]" page. We can leave the "three years" in the summary and then explain the error in Analysis. All other pages use "eight years" with a footnote for the explanation and maybe a link to that section. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:53, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::The pages [[Daniel Novacek]], [[Valkyrie]], [[Stealthstar]], [[Corman]] and [[Armistice Line]] currently are, and should remain, corresponding primarily to the 'hero timeline' as their information is almost entirely derived from ''Hero''. The question is, do articles such as [[William Adama]] assume his tenure on Valkyrie happened 6 BCH (which makes big assumptions about the state of the Cylons, and also means that the Stealthstar incident occurred '''before'''' humaniod cylons were violating the line) or kinda pretend it didn't happen at all? We could make the text deliberately vague about the actual timeline and then add: "There are conflicting sources on how long Adama spent on Galactica before the Cylon Holocaust, see [[Hero timeline discontinuity]]" or similar notes where relevant ''in the main text'' to make it clear. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 09:00, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::I don't see the problem in moving the date and footnoting it, explaining that we chose to ignore the date given in "Hero" in favor of a lot of other onscreen evidence. If we kept the "three years" in the main text, we'd need to make a footnote anyways to stay consistent. So there is not much of a difference either way. The ''Valkyrie'' page in particular needs to be changed because it says that Tyrol and Gaeta served there with Adama.
::::::Moreover, moving "Hero" a few years earlier actually gives Adama's doubts about his role in the conflict more weight. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:20, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::This sounds good to me, OTW. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 10:18, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Good to see someone bringing this up. I to have been cringing every time I read that Tyrol and Gaeta came with Adama from the Valkyrie as a way of reconcilling that. It just doesn't happen in the militaries that RDM and Co. use for inspiration. I like OTW's idea, that would work pretty well, as long as we cleary spell out the differences, maybe include a link to a section of the Hero or Timeline page that deals with it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:30, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

=== Vote ===

Ok, there are several possibilities on how to address this. Maybe we should just vote instead of having a long discussion. There are two sections 1/2 and a/b which complement each other. One is ''what'' to write, the other is ''how''. So vote on 1 or 2 '''and''' a or b.

==== Option 1 ====

Leave the dates as they are and just note the discrepancy in a footnote and either option a or b.

==== Option 2 ====

Change the dates (except in the "[[Hero]]" summary) on pages like this one, [[William Adama]], [[Daniel Novacek]], [[Stealthstar]] and [[Valkyrie]] to 6BCH/"eight years ago" as per the dossier '''and''' earlier dialogue evidence, thus considering "Hero" dialogue an error. Then footnote that as per option a or b to explain that decision.

*{{support}} As said, I don't think it's in any way logical to accept dialogue just because it came later even though it's clearly wrong. We don't just go by a 2-second prop, but by earlier dialogue as well. If you disagree, I think option 1 is a fair alternative that preserves some of the status quo. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:20, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Serenity said it all, don't have anything to add here but that I agree. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:35, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Just because the show is inconsistent doesn't mean that we he have to be. As long as we document our assumptions clearly (so that the reader knows exactly what info is coming from where) I don't think it's misleading or too presumptive. The alternative is a set of pages that says "A", a set of pages that says "not A", and then a bunch of footnotes pointing to the discrepancies. It reads smoother just to say "A" (or "not A") and then note the particular places that didn't jive. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 23:04, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} I agree with Steelviper that we should try to keep as much intra-article consistency as possible. Since there are two versions of the timeline, we mention the most logical one (6BCH) in the article body, while noting the alternative (1BCH) in a footnote. If we run into any new timeline discontinuities, we should act in the same way. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:10, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

==== Option a ====

Create an own page similar to [[Season two timeline discontinuity]] which contains an explanation with earlier dialogue evidence and can be linked to. This prevents lengthy and duplicate footnotes on every page.

==== Option b ====

Put a section at the beginning of [[Hero#Analysis]] which can be linked to. Also prevents duplicate footnotes

*{{support}} I think this is the easiest solution. I'm against an own article as the issue is relatively small and can easily be explained in the episode article. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:20, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Agreed, this would be easiest and the least intrusive way of doing this. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:36, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Simpler is better. A discontinuity article is going to have very low visibility (in terms of being searched/accessed). A footnote in a higher visibility article gives the information a wider audience, and it is easier to find (so long as the footnote is located within a logical article). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:59, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
**{{comment}} I meant mainly where to store the overall information (in an own article or on the "Hero" page). I'd create a footnote behind every mention of the date. Like "While "Hero" places the date at 1 BCH, this conflicts with earlier dialogue. For a detailed analysis see..." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:49, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Since this discontinuity isn't as big and doesn't span as many episodes as the S2 one does, it doesn't have to be in its own article. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:05, 23 October 2007 (CDT)


== "Scattered" re-re-re-visted ==

Sorry to beat this dead horse again. Since we're now taking the dossier at face value, I've tried to change all dates to it. In  general it fits, but it places Adama's reinstatement into the Fleet at 23 BCH and his assignment to ''Atlantia'' at 17 BCH. For the Tigh/Adama meeting we go by the podcast note that the meeting took place 20 years ago. Is there anything that says we have to take this literally and can't place it at 23 BCH? And then assume that Adama re-joined the Fleet in the same year? In fact the 23-year date is used on [[Carolanne Adama]], so the timeline isn't consistent with our other articles.

And what's the source for placing Tigh's reinstatement two years later? I know this is mentioned in the Tigh article, but it's not directly from the episode I think. Going by the [[Saul Tigh]] footnotes, it seems to come solely from the BSG magazine. Also, as it is now, it doesn't make sense that Adama got assigned to ''Atlantia'' with the rank of major 11 BCH. Because we know that he's a major when he gets Tigh back into the Fleet.

We could change it to this:
*23 BCH: 
**Adama and Tigh meet
**Adama reinstated into the Fleet in the same year (so noted in dossier: 54-31=23)
*17 BCH:
**Adama assigned to ''Atlantia'' makes his thousands landing (AoC), gets promoted to major
**Gets Tigh back into the fleet.
 
The only point I'm unsure is the time between Adama's and Tigh's reinstatement and the quoted two years. The dossier says "Major: Battlestar Atlantia". Maybe that means he was a major on ''Atlantia'', not that he was promoted to the rank on it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:21, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
:The document is unfortunately only a short list of Adama's accomplishments in the fleet.  It would seem to me, although I'm not certain, that the list is only comprehensive to the point of reassignments, not promotions.  In the Navy, it is equally common for an officer to be promoted aboard ship as well as with reassignment, although for higher level positions (such as Commander and Captain), it is increasingly more likely to recieve promotion with reassignment.  So I always assumed that Adama was recommissioned as a major, although there's not really any proof of that is there (which begs the question, what was he doing for those six years?).  This episode is a continuity nightmare by the way.--[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 14:59, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
::He was recommissioned as captain and Viper pilot. That's said explicitly in a deleted scene from "Scattered". The dossier doesn't really contradict on screen information as such, as "Scattered" is pretty vague about dating. We have the "20 years" from the podcast, but that can easily be a rounded value. As said, the two years between Adama's and Tigh's reinstatement comes from the magazine I think, but we usually treat that as "valid until contradicted". So we could either extend that period to 6 years, or we could keep it as two years and assume that Adama got promoted earlier (at the moment I'm favoring that).
::This probably comes down to simple choice unless someone recalls some more information. So we could decide on one, and footnote the alternative. Probably the best way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

:::My reading is that Adama serves on the tramp freighter from -37 BCH to some point prior to -23 BCH (per the dossier). He meets Tigh in -28 BCH (per "Torn", in which Adama calls Tigh "The man that I've known for the past thirty years"). He is recomissioned in -23 BCH, rank unknown. Tigh is recomissioned in -21 BCH (two years later, per the magazine), by which point Adama holds the rank of major (per the cut scene in "Scattered"). The dossier entry for -17 BCH indicates his transfer to Atlantia, not a promotion. His thousandth landing (on Atlantia, per "Act of Contrition") must take place shortly afterwards.
:::We can date Adama's marriage to Carolanne as follows: Zak dies in -2 BCH (Miniseries). He probably graduated from some kind of military academy, which would make his age at least 22 following the U.S. model. That puts his birth at roughly -24 BCH. From Adama's [[: Image:Youngadamafamily.jpg|photo]] with his two sons, Lee looks about two years older, putting his birth in -26 BCH.
:::So, I think everything makes perfect sense here. The flashbacks in "Scattered" span seven years from -28 BCH (Adama and Tigh's first meeting) to -21 BCH (Tigh's reinstatement). Adama's comment about meeting Tigh 30 years ago in Torn fits nicely. He probably married Carolanne in -26 BCH, at which point he would have quit his job on the freighter to start a family, and resumed military service three years later, when Zak was old enough to leave with one parent. The only date that has to be fudged is Moore's comment that the "Scattered" flashbacks take place 20 years ago, and this is both the most vague and least reliable piece of information that we have to consider. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 18:55, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
::::That sounds good :) I agree that we shouldn't necessarily take behind-the-scenes info over on-screen evidence. Though it can be made fit either way.
::::Two comments though: First, Adama's rank is known from a deleted scene. He starts as captain as well. Second, Adama didn't quit his job with marriage. When he gets the news that he is reinstated, Tigh states "the new wife pulled through". And the two are still on the freighter. The Adamas married while he was a freight monkey and then he joined the Fleet rightaway. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:29, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::Nice analysis, all. If we take the "twenty years ago" as a vague statement that could also mean 23 years, Peter's reading fits pretty much perfectly (adjusting it for what Serenity pointed out above, of course). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 05:57, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::Well, right now we have the meeting at 28 years. We could also place it at 23 years and assume that Adama got recommissioned in the same year. Both versions work, but 28 years fits better with the line that they've known each other for 30 years. This part of the timeline isn't such a mess as some make it out to be. The only major reshuffling is the ''Valkyrie'' mission.
::::::Also regarding Tyrol's "ten years" comment. That might be a rounded value - people often think in 10, 15, 20 years - so I put that as "circa". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:37, 26 October 2007 (CDT)

== Ancient History ==

*'''4,000 years BCH:''' The Thirteenth Tribe reportedly leaves the planet Kobol, later leaving a beacon in space and building the Temple of Five (The Eye of Jupiter)[1]. At some undated point, something travels from Earth to Kobol, passing on information about Earth, including a map of its night sky. 

This would be clearer if these 3 items were seperated. The virus on the beacon is an exact match of a virus reported 3000 years ago. This is a major clue in the series and should be given more importance as opposed to being mentioned in passing the way its written here. Also it need to be specified that the Temple is *radio carbon* dated to 4000 years.

Quote Adama to Roslin "According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol"

Quote Tyrol to Adama "Our initial radio carbon dating suggests the temples at least 4000 years old which lines up with the exodus of the 13th tribe"

This is potentially confusing since the exodus of the 13th tribe is anything from 3000-4000 years ago (if 13th tribe and 13th colony are to taken as the same thing!). The virus itsself adds more confusion, since it was an exact match then the assumption is that its the same virus since a virus will mutate pretty fast but you would think that in space it is in suspended animation. Therefore its not entirely clear that this quote is saying the beacon is 3000 years old

Since the "undated" fact is undated, it should be moved outside of the timeline but still within the Ancient History section or preferentially removed entirely since it borders speculation.

I would suggest that it reads as follows...

*'''4000 years BCH:''' The Temple of Five is built by the 13th tribe [1]
*'''4000 - 3000 years BCH:''' The 13th tribe/colony leaves Kobol [1] [2]
*'''After 3000 years BCH:''' The beacon is left behind by the 13th colony [2]

The [1], [2] points to the two quotes listed above.

Its not exactly clear in which order these occured but it represents the facts as we know them. It is very important that this timeline is listed as clearly as possible since it may well be one of the most crucial bits of information in the show. Although it is commonly assumed that the 13th tribe left Kobol, left a beacon and then built the temple it is not clear from these 2 quotes that this is the correct order of events. You can create other orders based on these quotes so I think its important that preconceptions aren't written into the description of events and the ordering of these events is left up to the reader - as the show intended. --[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 16:21, 4 January 2008 (CST)

:How crucial it is depends on one's preferences. Mine are entirely elsewhere. Anyways, that's what footnotes are for. It's true that it should be left somewhat open, and it's a topic that was always unclear, but it has to be put in ''some'' order for the purpose of the article. Footnotes can give the sources and some explanation, so that the reader can decide what to make of it. They can't be too long, but 1-3 sentences are usually enough to convey the information. I changed it to make the beacon date more ambiguous, but that's said in the footnote. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:59, 4 January 2008 (CST)

12tribes leaving Kobol 2000 years ago is wrong...

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, on the order of approximately 2,000 years. 
Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol. 
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 19:54, 5 January 2008 (CST)
:There are many contradictory quotes on that one. There is a quote that says 2,000 years (you mentioned it), there is one that says 3,000 and one that says 4,000. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 03:57, 6 January 2008 (CST)

Its only a contradiction if you make the assumption that the 13th tribe left only once  - also nobody has ever said that there was only ever 1 thirteeth colony. Although its never been stated, the modern day cylons themselves are obviously a 13th colony/tribe since they have their own homeworld.

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial 
estimates have it, uh, on the order of approximately 2,000 years. 
Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol. 

Notice the use of the term "first", also 13 tribes left Kobol, they aren't neccessarily saying the the legendary "Thirteeth Tribe" was one of them.

Adama: Why the Scroll of Pythia? 
Roslin: Pythia is supposed to have chronicled the original journey of the 13th Tribe on 
its way to Earth. 

Notice the use of the term "original" - if there was only one journey then this term would have no meaning and therefore would be pointless to include it.

Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years 
ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol"

Chief: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years 
old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe. 
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 07:43, 6 January 2008 (CST)
:The 13th Tribe "'''first''' left Kobol" 2,000 years ago, but also left 3,000 and 4,000 years ago? Now ''that's'' a contradiction... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 08:06, 6 January 2008 (CST)
::Yep. There is a deliberate retcon or dialogue error somewhere; or both. It's possible to reconcile two of the three dates; for example by assuming that part of them left Kobol earlier to build the temple and that the rest left later with the other tribes. But the third will contradict each two you chose. Taking all the dialogue literally and reconciling all three dates is impossible without some serve mental contortions. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:31, 6 January 2008 (CST)

They don't say the 13th tribe left 2000 years ago, they say 13 tribes left. Sorry to keep banging on about the same point and to a certain extent I am inclined to believe its an error of some kind, more likely the history of the colonies has been changed by the writers before season 3 but I don't believe its a script error since Boomer says the same thing...

Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your god supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down onto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes. 

Even at that point in the series it was clear that the exodus of 13 tribes resulted in 12 colonies (on Kobol pre miniseries, later changed to 12 planets). So the writers knew that there were 12 colonies and yet twice they say 13 tribes left Kobol.
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 07:15, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:Well, with the first twelve populating the colonies, and the 13th going in their own direction. The (legendary) 13th tribe was one of the tribes. The only reason they're legendary (and not just a plain old tribe) is that they went in a different direction and the rest of the tribes (now colonies) lost track of them. The exodus of the 13 tribes would coincide with the exodus of the 13th tribe. It looks like the exodus was a single event... they just can't seem to keep their dates straight (whether it's 2, 3 or 4K years). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 7 January 2008 (CST)

RON MOORE COMMENTARY	
8/26/2005 -- This notion of the constellations is something that I came up with. I wanted to connect it to our present day mythology of the Zodiac. The show is replete with symbols and references to Zodiacal things. Somehow, these names for these Colonies are not random, there is a connection, and here's the connection. That these people of the thirteenth tribe looked up into the sky and made up these constellations and assigned them to their brethren, the lost tribes. (source: The Home, Part II podcast) 

You can't read much into Adama's 3000 year quote since he says "over 3000" years and he is talking about a virus, not exactly the beacon and since its unknown how the virus behaves in space, how long it takes to mutate into something different and even how long it took for the 13th tribe to get to the LionHeads nebula you can't really say anything for sure about how this fits into the timeline.
 
You also agree that at some point "someone" travelled from Earth to Kobol therefore the most obvious solution, which assumes no script errors is as follows

4000 years: Exodus of 13th tribe who then built the Temple

# Got to Earth 
# Named the constellations after their "lost" brothers
# Went back to Kobol, with information on the Temple and the constellation map

2000 years: The "reunited" 13 tribes left Kobol to form 12 colonies

Surely this is the correct way to read the storyline. It makes no assumptions, requires no errors in the script, has no contradictions and interpets the quotes *exactly* as written.

Your just getting confused with "13th tribe" which reference one tribe, and "13 tribes" which references all 13.

--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 07:37, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:Except that if it happened that way, then the knowledge of where the 13th tribe went would be with the twelve colonies (since people who had been to earth would be among the twelve colonies). The tribes always have seemed to correspond to the colonies, so having a thirteenth in the mix would upset the pattern. What's really affecting my thinking (and likely the thinking of others) is the way the exodus pattern unfolded in TOS. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:24, 7 January 2008 (CST)

The knowledge IS with the 12 colonies, the constellation map, the knowledge of the Temple, the chronicle of the original journey also bear in mind that when the 13th colony got to Earth, the other 12 tribes were (according to RON MOORE) considered "lost" --[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 08:29, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:This timeline seems to make sense. Maybe we should try asking Brad or MrsRon whether this timeline is correct and there were actually 2 exoduses. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 08:58, 7 January 2008 (CST)

== "Lost Time", and other notes... ==

I think we should really note that there are various "lost time" events (i.e. "Flight of the Phoenix", "Downloaded", and even those inferred by "He That Believeth In Me") that we should note. Further, I think it would be wise to point out that there might be inaccuracies in this timeline that can never be rectified due to the lack of definitive information. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 22:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
:I thought "Downloaded" was cleared up on the DVD release? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 03:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

==BCE occurences==

[http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=BCE&go=Go This search] gives 10 occurences of the BCE style, all of them in infoboxes on characters making it to Earth.

Sure the series ends with the note that all these events are supposed to be in the distant past from our perspective, culminating in the long-past settlement of our planet. 

However, shouldn't at least the infoboxes if not the articles alltogether remain within the confines of the series chronology, i.e. use BCH?

Also, there is a spoiler problem. By adding BCE to all these infoboxes, all these articles give away that Galactica cannot be finding our contemporary earth.

Finally, the date in question - and note it's the same date on every page is purely an estimation. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

: We should not be using BCE at all, since there is nothing that states that the Colonial Calendar lines up exactly with the Earth calendar. Please remember that the Earth calendar has been revised several times in human history, so we've never had a consistent calendar to begin with anyway. As there is no direct correlation between an Earth year being the same as a Colonial year, and as such we should keep all times in BCH (Before Colonial Holocaust) or ACH (After Colonial Holocaust). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 14:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
::Well, there is a link between the two systems as the ending of the series is .... years before our present. But that is revealed only in the last few moments of the show and should not form the basis for dates given here. It does make more sense to say Lee Adama died x years after the Cylon holocaust. 
::That the Earth calendar (actually is not one Earth calendar) has been revised is of no consequence however, as a) it makes little no differences to the years, b) BC is merely our present Gregorian calendar calculated backwards. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 15:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
:::That is the only link. There is nothing that supports a direct correlation between how the Colonial calendar works and the Earth calendar (i.e. a Colonial year could be 380 days or more, as seems to be supported by Caprica occuring only ''50'' years before the Fall and not the 52-53 needed, if we're going by the 4,571 days that the First Cylon War took). And yes, the calendar has been modified since its inception as we learn more about the rotation of our planet and other factors, and there are vast differences between the two calendars that cause discrepancies. Just look at the Julian calendar versus the Gregorian calendar. Since we do not know what the discrepancy is between the Colonial calendar and the Second Earth (our real-life) calendar, we should just do away with the whole BCE thing in terms of the BSG universe, since it adds a level of error and complication we do not need. This is something that I honestly do not believe that RDM will ever explain, since that's not how RDM really works at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
::::We are basically on the same side on the actual issue: do away with BCE.
::::We only disagree about little things you said or rather about their relevance to this issue. As I said, there is no "the Calendar" on earth. Earth rotation only commands the day and that has been pretty much stable.
::::I agree that is probably a discrepancy between year-lengths and day-length if directly compared to ours. TOS was certainly more "realistic" on that account.
::::Back to the issue: can you suggest a ACH wording to replace the current BCE one. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::I'll go even further.... There's no reason to note they died at all, since that's really a given and there were no special circumstances to their death. There really is no reason to use "died sometime after XXX ACH" in the infobox at all, since you would have to do that to '''every''' infobox for '''every''' character who survived up to the arrived at the new Earth. We should really leave the death section of infoboxes for confirmed deaths, not assumed. However, that's a topic for another talk page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 22:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Actually you are right. After all, the whole Wiki variously works under the "state as of the last episode" mode, talking about deceased characters - but from the perspective of 150,000 years later all would be deceased. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 08:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Absolutely. The only definitive evidence of anyone actually dying is [[Hera Agathon]]! All the other deaths should be logically assumed, barring some extremely odd and supernatural event.  -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 

:These are supposed to be 150,000 Earth years, aren't they? That's the time given in the article Ron is reading. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
::So this is how the 148,000 BC numberes originates: 150,000 years minus 2,000 years.
::'''My proposal is change the current text to ''"died after the settlement of New Earth in ... ACH"''.
::How many years after the Cylon Holocaust does the series end? Our season timelines (which actually are not timelines at all) do not help in this. The best estimation I have is based on a comment during the mutinty, which talks about "fighting the Cylons for four years" - that this fits with the four seasons is probably no coincidence.
::So how about  '''''"died after the settlement of New Earth in 4 ACH?"'''''
::[[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
:::The BSG timeline is wonky and wrought with various contradictions; Tom Zarek made a reference for "five years" in Season 4, there's that one year gaffe in "Hero", and "Caprica" (along with "Razor") introduces some delightfully fun inconsistencies of their own. As I said earlier, I'm not fond of noting deaths in infoboxes unless absolutely confirmed. We can assume that every one of the 38,000+ survivors (or, indeed, anyone else in the series) is well dead, buried and rotted to nothing after the 150,000 jump. This being the case, we can either make a carte blanche note that everyone died sometime after the discovery of the Second Earth (which is easy enough to do directly in the infobox's syntax itself), or simply leave the field blank in the infobox. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

== Real-world events within the timeline? ==

Since RDM has clearly stated on more than one occasion that the events of ''BSG'' lead to us in the real world, how do we handle real-life history within the confines of the timeline? For example, Admiral Adama scattered the survivors throughout the world at the end of "[[Daybreak, Part II]]." Real-life science and archaeology shows us that humans did ''not'' originate in or settle in any of those areas (except for the African area, where the survivors landed) 150,000 years ago. As such, should we make it clear in the articles that these survivors died out very quickly? Keeping with real-world history, that's precisely what would have taken place. (And their remains must've been rapidly devoured and scattered to bits by the local fauna!)

The same applies with Hera being described as Mitochondrial Eve, the MRCA. This is factually incorrect, as the MRCA existed much more recently than 150k years ago (more like between 10k and 50k years ago). Also, Mitochondrial Eve would be the most recent common matrilineal ancestor, anyway, not the MRCA. They're two different things.

I ask this because with any other science fiction series, it's all within an ''internal'' timeline, not connected to the real world. However, as I said, RDM has stated that the point of the show was to connect with the real world.

So...how should this be handled? I hope I made sense. Thanks in advance for your input... -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 01:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:Hmm. It's obviously not '''exactly''' like the real world. I think things where we don't know exactly what happened don't need mentioning. However likely something like "this settlement died out" may be, it's still speculative. There's no pressing need to fill in the part of the timeline between the penultimate and final scenes of Daybreak. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
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	:Hmm. It's obviously not '''exactly''' like the real world. I think things where we don't know exactly what happened don't need mentioning. However likely something like "this settlement died out" may be, it's still speculative. There's no pressing need to fill in the part of the timeline between the penultimate and final scenes of Daybreak. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness\|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)		:Hmm. It's obviously not '''exactly''' like the real world. I think things where we don't know exactly what happened don't need mentioning. However likely something like "this settlement died out" may be, it's still speculative. There's no pressing need to fill in the part of the timeline between the penultimate and final scenes of Daybreak. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness\|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

	: Concur with Noneofyourbusiness. I do think that noting the facts that Liquidcross pointed out in the "notes" section or as references would suffice. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support\|Donate]] - [[bsp:\|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)