Editing Talk:Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)/Archive 1

== Was there ever actually a thirteenth tribe? ==

I believe the existence of the thirteenth tribe is unfounded speculation.   Now how can I say this when it is regularly referred to in the show?  The show does not show a thirteenth tribe.  Rather it shows people who talk about an ancient legend of a thirteenth tribe.   I made some minor edits in the past to try to make it more ambiguous but the truth is this article still describes the thirteenth tribe as though it is a real tribe seen in the show, and it isn't.  It's a myth from the scrolls, which may or may not turn out to be real.

As most fans know, there is much controversy over whether Earth was colonized by Kobol's thirteenth tribe as the scrolls say, or Kobol was colonized by Earth.  I don't want to try to resolve or speculate on that controversy in the main page, though I certainly have [http://ideas.4brad.com/earth-bsg my own arguments, which I believe are fairly convincing].  I believe that this article, and a few related ones, currently speculate on the controversy, but in the "trust the myths" direction.   There are hints scattered through the articles about the uncertainty regarding the legend, I would like to consolidate it, perhaps by gathering the material from the scrolls in a section marked "As told in the sacred scrolls" with another section for relevant notes and facts outside the scrolls from canon/etc.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:22, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:The article says "according to Elosha", "according to the Scriptures" or "apparently" pretty much every time. That's enough for me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 08:26, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

== Athena's Death ==

This article says that Athena killed herself, her death is an assumption since all that we know is what Boomer tells us...

Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your god supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down onto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes. 

It doesn't say that she died.--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 11:36, 7 January 2008 (CST)

:Then just add the "supposedly" in the text and all is good (I'll do so, but I think the entry paragraph also needs to be changed, and am currently thinking about that). Something like "reportedly" or "allegedly" also works will with things that are told second-hand :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:39, 7 January 2008 (CST)

::I'm pretty sure "threw herself to the rocks" does mean death, y'know. [[User:OTW|OTW]]
:::Yeah. Depends on if he takes issue with the wording (which is clear though), or that it's just scriptures that might not be true. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:07, 7 January 2008 (CST)

I think that whatever the show states has to be considered true, its true that the show states it, that doesn't mean it's true within the BSG universe itsself but I don't think this site can be concerned with that since we can't possibly know. Athena killing herself isn't true because the show doesn't state it, its just presumed (and probably correctly presumed) but adding the word "presumed" would mean that there is no chance that what you are stating can possibly be wrong which only adds to the validity of information on this site. Besides if Athena is a god then presumably she can't die.
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 14:05, 7 January 2008 (CST)

== The Eye of Jupiter ==

This article states that "The Eye of Jupiter is, in fact, the image created by the planet's dying sun"

In fact the Eye Of Jupiter is either the emblem on the floor of the Temple on which D'Anna stood OR the nova or perhaps both.

[Chip Six appears, indicating the obvious Eye symbol on the floor.]
Chip Six: There it is, Gaius. It has the answers to all of your questions. 
Baltar: That's the Eye? 

Chief: Major, look. It's the mandala from the Temple. This is supposed to be happening. That's it. I was staring at it the whole time. The sun is going nova. The nova is the Eye of Jupiter.

However Roslin believes that the Eye is inside the temple

Roslin: Admiral, if the Eye of Jupiter is somewhere in that temple, and it really is a marker on the way to Earth… We can't let the Cylons get their hands on it. --[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 13:57, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:According to those episodes, the Thirteenth Tribe saw a nova in the Ionian system and drew that nova in the temple. This would make the nova the 'original' Eye, and the symbol in the temple a depiction of it. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:20, 8 January 2008 (CST)

perhaps, the scriptures say it was left in the temple...

Episode 311

Roslin: I don't know, Lee. I've looked at the Scriptures, and they make reference to the Eye being left in some sort of temple. But there's no physical description.--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 16:25, 8 January 2008 (CST)

== Early Generation Cylons ==

Saying "Early Generation",  makes it sound like the 13th tribe were Model 005 (or more primitive).
: True, but we don't really have enough to come up with a name for them.  We could call them Earth Cylons, but they actually originated on Kobol, and their type of Cylon may be in other places too.  All we know right now is that they are an earlier generation of humanoid cylons.  We don't even know they are the first generation, since the Temple of Five dates back 4,000 years.  The Final Five may be yet another generation.  For example, Ellen has set up a download, and the way she says it suggests the other Cylons on the planet don't have that.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 23:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::How about "Ancient Cylons"? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 00:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-== Makeup of the thirteenth tribe - Cylon or Human ==
-I just edited the bit about the 13th tribe being comprised of an early form of Cylon upon their departure from Kobol. While the tribe was obviously Cylon (or a close variant) by the time of the holocaust, there is not evidence that the tribe was originally Cylon or Human. The composition of the tribe when they left Kobol has not yet been proven. {{unsigned|Dch31969}}
-:Thanks, and welcome to the wiki! In the future, throw your talk comments towards the bottom...people will see them as new more readily. And you can sign your comments too, using four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). If you haven't already, see a similar thread at the end of this talk. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
-:: While their makeup can be debated, the page should certainly mention that they became that.  When the characters declare "the 13th tribe was Cylon" they seem to be saying it to the audience as much as to ourselves, and Ron Moore says it in his interviews and I think in the podcast, so I think the statement that they began as Cylons probably will stand until demonstrated otherwise. --[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 02:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 == Was there ever actually a thirteenth tribe? ==
@@ Line 55: / Line 50: @@
 : True, but we don't really have enough to come up with a name for them.  We could call them Earth Cylons, but they actually originated on Kobol, and their type of Cylon may be in other places too.  All we know right now is that they are an earlier generation of humanoid cylons.  We don't even know they are the first generation, since the Temple of Five dates back 4,000 years.  The Final Five may be yet another generation.  For example, Ellen has set up a download, and the way she says it suggests the other Cylons on the planet don't have that.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 23:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 ::How about "Ancient Cylons"? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 00:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
-:::We don't know yet.  There might be even older Cylons.  I suspect there are.  All this has happened before.  Who are the Lords of Kobol, after all, and the five priests?   Let's find out--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
-::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_(reimagining) Wikipedia] references them as "Earth Cylons". [[User:German|German]] 21:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
-:::At this point I think a good name for them is "13th tribe."  The Final Five are also 13th tribe, of course.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 21:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)