Editing Talk:The Ties That Bind/Archive 1

Is this title a hint to [[Saul Tigh|everyone's favourite alcoholic colonel]]? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:23, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
:That would be "The Tighs That Bind". hehe. Like "Tigh me up, Tigh me down". That was a nice play on words. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:22, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

== SG1 thing? ==

Is the SG-1 thing really necessary? After all, I'm sure that here are tons of television shows that have similar names -- for instance, I'm sure that there are shows that have episodes named "Faith". To be honest, I find nothing significant in that note. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 13:22, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
:Agreed. Usually it's simple title that get reused often, but since this is a fixed expression it's not so surprising. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
::Didn't know "The Ties That Bind" was like a common expression (one of the downsides of being a near-native, but still non-native, English speaker), I was under the impression it was simply a Biblical quote. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 13:49, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
:::The origin is of course that bible quote, but if you google it, you'll also find a Bruce Springsteen song and many news articles that use it. For example "The ties that bind China, Russia and Iran" or "Sony Cuts the Ties That Bind Walkman" or "Technologies to untie the ties that bind". And for TV, an episode of "The OC" shares that name too, so Stargate shouldn't be singled out. We already pay way too much attention to it with cast notes. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:55, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
::::Right. I just didn't know TTTB was a common expression. Removing. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 13:59, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

== Image ==

May I suggest taking some image that is a) smaller b) oriented horizontally, not vertically? Current image breaks s.4 episode guide and is a bit too big. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 17:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:It's already scaled down and it might not be so obvious once that page is filled with content. The only other interesting image would be [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=283&pos=1 this] (I can get a high-res version). Or we could crop the current one at her waist. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::My vote goes to [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=283&pos=1 this], right. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::: It depends, because Cally... ahem. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:::: Then crop it at least if it must be Cally. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::I say [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=283&pos=3 this one] How many do have Cheif and Tory? We have lots with Roslin and crew. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 03:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, it's not like there is a shortage of things about the Final Five, either on screen or online, so I chose pictures that are about something else. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Mixing it up is good. I been thinking about making them all random <code>{{#random:image1.jpg,etc}}</code> [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 15:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

== Orion ==
At about 28 minutes, when the other baseships jump in, the constellation of Orion is clearly visible in the background. Worth mentioning on the entry?--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 10:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Not only did you see Orion, but also Taurus and the Pleiades - and most importantly, as you would see them if you were within ~50 light years of Earth. --[[User:Qprmeteor|Qprmeteor]] 12:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

:I think that this is also a tribute to Blade Runner: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. '''Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.''' I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." very cool! --[[User:Zenzero|Zenzero]], 30 April 2008
::I actually just saw Blade Runner a few days ago, and I think that that is a interesting, albeit coincidental, connection![[User:Pentagonal Deception|Pentagonal Deception]] 20:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC) 

== Acts vs. Location Format ==
I feel that this guide would be much easier to read and follow if it was in a Location format instead of by Acts. IMHO, YMMV, ect. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah. that's the way I orginally had it setup before spenc uploaded his thing :P [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 16:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry, didn't look at the history. It just seems harder to read this way. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Hey. Wasn't blaming ya. :) I gues I'll pick apart his summary and switch everything around. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 16:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::::We have most of the guides in act format since that's how the episode translates. While this may be easy to read, it also throws the order of the story out of whack. I figure we have to do this on a case-by-case given the number of scene shifts, so.... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Not so much scene shifts, but number of ''independent'' story lines. Sometimes, there are two different settings, but heavily intercut and dependent on each other. Like the stuff in "The Eye of Jupiter" and "Rapture". One the other hand, the Caprica, Kobol and Cylon story lines stand for themselves and can have an own section. That's how we always did it. Nothing new :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== Nicky Cylon or Human ==

I wonder if this episode shows how the story hits on pure fiction rather than sci-fi with the case of Nicky being a cylon. Nicky is a boy, which would mean there has to be a Y chromosome. If Tyrol is truly a Cylon, then Cally could only have a female child. They stated earlier in the series that the skinjobs could not reproduce without human donors. Reading the sci-fi forums and original series (way back to deception to the Cylons/Baltar by Specter, and how the Beings of Light 'try' not to interfere) may provide a spoiler to what is to come next from this episode if it stays on the sci-fi side. If it goes fiction, maybe it be worth noting what made Nicky a boy and a cylon before someone yells "that's not sci-fi!" (The Science Note: women can reproduce women without men in genetic experiments of fertilization, but women do not carry/make the Y chromosome to reproduce a male.) (Podcast note: [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Frak_Party_Q_and_A#hybridnick]) [[User:Dzonatas|Dzonatas]] 21:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:They did not state anything about human donors. They stated that Cylons could not reproduce with each other, and could not reproduce with humans unless there was love. Cally and Tyrol love each other, imperfect as their marriage might be, so Nicky was conceived like Hera. No reason he shouldn't have a Cylon Y chromosome. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::RDM has stated the the final five are fundamentally different than the others, so what is know about the significant seven may not apply. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Plus, what is known about the signficant seven doesn't rule it out. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::So, we can say that Nicky is fundamentally different when compared to Hera. The plot just grows more from this episode about them and brings questions, but the difference can be noted on the Nicky or Hera page. I was going to add something to the article, but I felt it was better to wait another episode. Thanks -- [[User:Dzonatas|Dzonatas]] 03:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::For now, we don't know of any fundamental differences between Nicky and Hera yet. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 03:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Inappropriate use of Point of Order? ==

According to Robert's Rules of Order, a Point of Order is raised if the rules of order have apparently been broken.  In this case, rules don't seem to have been broken, and Lee is really just interrupting to bring up his own issues (which could be construed as out of order).  The closest motion that I could find is a Request for Any Other Privilege, which he would then use to try to bring up a more pressing issue, but this is still an iffy case. [[User:Ctetc2007|Ctetc2007]] 10:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
*Standing-up at the table is a request to yield. The one who has the floor is the one who can decide to yield the floor. If Lee continued without the floor being yielded to him, then it would be out of order. Notice that Lee does ask for the floor to yield. The point of order is to get the answer to yield the floor and to quiet everybody else that does not have the floor. Roslin immediately tabled the issue that Lee brought up. Lee sits down, and the floor is returned. He could have requested an immediate call to vote to handle the issue, but typically it would have to be by some disastrous or emergency situation to call to vote on non-agenda items.  Why didn't he make that case at that time? [[User:Dzonatas|Dzonatas]] 14:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
*Since a legitimate Point of Order addresses a violation of the rules, it is addressed ''immediately'' to ensure proper procedures are followed. For this reason, it is frequently abused. I view the episode as reflecting the reality of that abuse. Lee has a point to make, but it isn't his turn, so he misuses the rule to interrupt. That isn't proper procedure, but it is a realistic depiction of what frequently happens in meetings. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 14:25, 12 July 2011 (EDT)

== Interesting Comments about Orion Sighting ==
The [http://community.livejournal.com/battlestar_blog/992976.html post] might be worth reading. Didn't know about the [[w:Ophiuchus |thirteenth sign]] until now. Any astrophysicists on board to judge this info? -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

:This is a great little read (the link above). Even the bit about the Cylons of Greece (an aditional link once there). I was wondering, has anyone seen/made a super-speculative galactic map of where the fleet might be? especially now that with being able to pin point the rough neighbourhood the fleet is now in.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:One thing about this - if the arguement in that article was accurate (in terms of which direction the Fleet s approaching from), the Sun would be a bright naked eye star in Orion (roughly about mag 3), and would be stick out like a sore thumb. However - in terms of proximity, ~25 L.Y. away would seem about right. -- [[User:Qprmeteor|Qprmeteor]] 15:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

== Monitoring Launch Tubes ==

The reason nobody notices the launch tubes being used is probably due to the Galactica's lack of automation.  There's no central computer to track these things, and the over-worked state of Galactica's repair crew probably means that the logs that would track these things (assuming there's a counter at all) aren't being kept properly.

Of course, this doesn't explain why there wouldn't be guards.

— [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 01:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:Well, at least they already established that nobody was paying attention to the launch tubes in last season's "[[Collaborators]]"... --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 05:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::Poor Jammer. :( [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 05:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

: This might be indeed a flaw by design, but one that they should have fixed after the first Cylon war. The Cylons boarded ships via airlocks and launch tubes and used them as weapon to vent the crew out of the ship. In such a situation the security team etc. should know where to look for the enemy. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 10:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:Well, would YOU want to guard the launch tubes? 99% of the time you'd just be standing there in an empty control room (at least at night), not to mention the fact that since there are quite a few launch tubes, you'd be tying up a significant number of personnel doing so. It seems like it'd be easier in terms of manpower to have guards somewhere in the hangar deck (potentially in intersection of the hangar deck(s) and the interior of the ship). By guarding the choke points, you'd be covered against somebody coming from any of the launch tubes, and from the landing bay openings as well. Though obviously the biggest reason the launch tubes are untended are for dramatic purposes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::Nobody said there had to be ''humans'' watching the launch tubes, you'd be 'watching' them electronically, just like building security monitors elevator movements. If they did that and logged all activity, they'd find out Cally's launch tube was spaced from the control room and know she didn't commit suicide. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 14:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, that Cally did not commit suicide is something that a good criminal investigator would find out anyway - Cally has to trigger the launch tube from inside by use this little key. This key should still be in the launch tube. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 14:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::*Actually, Cally used the key to switch the airlock door control from Locked (red) to Active (green). The green control light remained on after Tory removed the key. If the switch remained "hot", and Tory had the sense to take the key with her, it would be reasonable to assume that Cally pocketed the key before opening the door. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 12:44, 12 July 2011 (EDT)
:::True, but you know what happens when you put "machines" in charge of things... Closed circuit monitoring would of course be sensible. And if they wanted to get into all that, they could alter the logs and substitute in bogus footage, etc. When your conspiracy includes the Chief and the XO, there's not a lot of limits to what you could cover up. I guess they didn't want to get into that. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't think the Chief and the XO were in on this. And as to the key, wouldn't it be spaced too? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 14:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Oh, I meant more of the executions in Collaborators. As for the key, it'd probably be "locked" into place when turned to the activated position. That, or you'd be losing keys whenever you did that. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::Whenever you did what? Flushing a launch tube with yourself inside? How often does that happen? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 16:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::There are probably moving parts in the non-pressurized areas of the launch tube that need occasional maintenance. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I myself have decided to suspend disbelief on this particular issue. I find it fairly unbelievable that there isn't an automated system that would at least inform CIC that a "launch" had taken place. Also, this is a military ship on a war footing; I'm sure they have plenty of bored marines who could be patrolling the ship, especially sensitive areas like launch tubes and airlocks. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:Well it kinda depends on how detailed the data is that arrives at CIC: they may know ''that'' the launch tube was flushed, but they may not be able to tell whether it was operated from the inside or the outside (which would be of little use outside murder investigations). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 20:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== Taurus ==
Some observant individual has noticed that Taurus is visible in this Orion [http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=taurusqv3.jpg screen cap] (Orion is still visible in the lower left), putting the Cylon fleet pretty close to Earth. Is this observation correct?  -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
:Oh, that's just bull ;) -- [[User:Whytwolf|Whyte Wolf]] 20:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

== Wired ==

''Wired'' credits the Battlestar Wiki for the photo they use for this blog, [http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/04/galacticas-thir.html Galactica's 'Ties That Bind' Is All Fraked Up].--[[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 01:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== Question about Nebula effects on the Callster ==

So this question was added to the questions section: ''Why did reaching the Ionian Nebula have such a negative effect on Cally (lack of sleep, depression)?''

The thing about this question is that it had nothing to do (directly) with the Ionian Nebula affecting Cally negatively... Galen Tyrol's the one that's been causing some of the problems since their marriage, as we've seen in "[[A Day in the Life]]", although the root problem is that they're both pretty incompatible, which came to a head pretty much after the revelation in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]". 

I'm bringing this up here because I removed the question earlier, but it was re-added, and instead of sparking an edit where the entire questions section was blanked (as was the case after I removed the question the first time), I figure I'd discuss it here first... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:Agreed. There is a time correlation obviously, but no causality. Unfortunately, these days some people are too quick to search for an outside explanation within the story and events, instead of looking at what the characters themselves go through. That just creates pointless implications. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

== Launch tube window ==

Has the reference to this been removed for a reason? I'm sure the article used to mention that there can't be a window in that location. (Did its illogical appearance really annoy anyone else as well?) [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 10:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:Still there. Last item in the Notes section. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::Oops, my bad :) [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 12:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::*You know, it might just be an hallucination... Given that Cally was basically in an unstable state of mind, she might have just been imagining that there was a window there. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::*Actually, there is space between each tube, which is wide enough for a control room (at least). As Cally first approaches the tube, you see a shorter door on the right labeled "Launch Control". This is the area from which Tory ultimately vents Cally into space. If Launch Control does not run the full length of the tube, there would be an empty gap where a window could be placed. Plus, there should be more space between each tube, simply to ensure minimum separation between Vipers during simultaneous launch. If all Vipers launch at once, you don't want those suckers flying too close to each other. An examination of the blueprint ([[Galactica_(RDM)#Blue_prints_of_Galactica|click on link here]]) shows space between each tube. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 12:26, 12 July 2011 (EDT)
::**There is room for a window, but you would not be able to see space (stars) through it without using mirrors or closed-circuit television. Such an arrangement would make sense for remote launches, as the pilot needs to see that there is nothing outside the far (outer) end of the launch tube. The window does however not look like something like this. [[User:Caldumidoan|Caldumidoan]] 15:38, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

== Another constellation? ==

I think I've found another constellation, but I'm not sure how right I am and how appropriate it may be considering the repeats of Orion in later episodes.

When it was first mentioned that Orion ''may be'' in Cally's look out the window, I went to check it, but couldn't see Orion. However, around about where the reflection of Cally's cheek is, there is a group of stars I believe may be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crux Crux] (also known as the Southern Cross, an important navigational constellation in the southern hemisphere). To the left of the cross (up when looking at the screen) are two bright stars, which may be the Pointers.

But there's a couple of problems. First is the later reappearance of Orion as a point of reference. Second is that the Pointers are too close together, but that issue can be circumvented by having The Fleet in a position where ''most'' of the stars line up but the Pointers appear closer together.

Am I on to something, or am I reading too much into the random dot patterns normally used for starfields ? [[User:Saberwyn|Saberwyn]] 10:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

== Main image ==

Shouldn't the image be one w/Cally in it, since this was essentially her episode? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 20:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
: It could, but that'd be like switching around the seating arrangements on ''Titanic''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
: See above. It used to be, and it really fits better than another generic Final Five picture, but using vertically aligned pictures is a bit problematic for the layout. Though cutting off a bit at the bottom would work. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I'm not against cropping or resizing portrait-oriented pictures in order to make it work for the infobox. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

== Weird Overdub / Name Change ==

In my universal-playback UK/Region 2 S4 boxset (white silver cover with red dress number 6) there's one really strange overdub which stick out like a sore thumb: in the early scene of Lee Adama's acceptance speech he says "And so I am honored to accept this appointment to the quorum in the hope that I can continue Delegate Cowan's courageous work on behalf of the people of Caprica and the Fleet." Except in this version the two words "Delegate Cowan's" are badly overdubbed with "Delegate Cowlin's", and the subtitles also say Cowlin's. Later on in the scene between Lee and Zarek, Lee says "I had some bills I wanted to discuss. Projects Delegate Cowan was pushing before she died. But they told me she wasn't in." Here the audio and subtitles both agree on Cowan. I was sort of hoping there'd already be some sort of explanation here. It's really quite obvious! Anyone know what's going on there? [[User:Jsbsgw|Jsbsgw]] 00:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

: Name changes and dialogue dubs are actually quite common.... I'll have to check the script, but it wouldn't be surprising if "Cowlin" was in the original shooting draft. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
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	: Name changes and dialogue dubs are actually quite common.... I'll have to check the script, but it wouldn't be surprising if "Cowlin" was in the original shooting draft. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support\|Donate]] - [[bsp:\|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)		: Name changes and dialogue dubs are actually quite common.... I'll have to check the script, but it wouldn't be surprising if "Cowlin" was in the original shooting draft. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support\|Donate]] - [[bsp:\|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

	~~:It will be interesting to see if that's also done for the US DVDs or just the UK ones, though there shouldn't be such "major" differences. -- [[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 18:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)~~