Editing Talk:The Son Also Rises/Archive 1

== Ick..Not a "Trial" Cliffhanger?! ==

I was hoping for a little action cliffhanger, a'la ''Star Trek: Next Generation'''s "Best of Both Worlds, Part I." But I suspect we're getting "The Trial of Gaius Baltar." The title of this ep suggests that this is a Lee Adama story, but the curious Q&A with Katee Sackhoff a few weeks ago might indicate something else...I just don't know. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:39, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:Spence, what interview are you referring to and what did Katee say that makes you so curious?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 08:15, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::See if you can glean something about Sackhoff and episode 16 [http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=starbase here]. I was at this SF convention, where she noted her filming ended with episode 16 for the season, I believe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Promo Pics==

Are up [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a8e4s here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:25, 10 February 2007 (CST)

:I'm more curious of the updated Maelstrom pics. There's one where Starbuck is with someone who appears to be a sister or an oracle. Uh-oh. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:23, 10 February 2007 (CST)

:: The info with the photo says it is an oracle: Georgia Craig as Oracle Brenn. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:20, 10 February 2007 (CST)


Holy Frak! It's [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000yhy12/g288 Agent Smith]! --[[User:Webbie|Webbie]] 21:38, 12 February 2007 (CST)

:He reminds me of David Hewlett, Elton John and the Blues Brothers, although he does look a lot like Agent Smith from the neck up. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:10, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Episode Description ==

Since I can't edit the page, here is the episode descrip for The Son Also Rises from Tvguide.com

"Lee is ordered to protect Baltar's lawyer, Romo Lampkin (Mark Sheppard), after Baltar's first lawyer dies in what is suspected to be an act of sabotage; bombings cause the crew to examine theories about the culprits." {{unsigned|LOSDucard}}

== Predictions? ==

The ol' [[DRADIS|crystal ball]]'s coming in pretty fuzzy this week, everybody. Shame, too. I got such good reception last week. Anyway, here we go!
*The Adamas mourn Starbuck. This is going to be a recurring theme for the rest of the season. Not that the season has long to go.
*Anders is seen at Kara's memorial, likely for the last time this season.
*Lee and Dee are having problems again. Lt. Anastasia Adama is jealous of the depth of Lee's feelings for Kara, but she also empathizes for her husband's pain. She's conflicted by these emotions, but ultimately decides to support him.
*We learn that Lee has been studying his grandfather's law books in what little free time he has.
*I have a feeling we'll be seeing a little of Caprica Six this episode, but she, Phantom Six, and Athena are likely the only Cylons (or Cylon-appearing angels) we see this episode. I honestly doubt we'll see the Cylons again until the end of the finale. Like I said in earlier predictions, I think that boxing the Threes had a major effect on the Cylon in general and it's taking them time to adjust.
*Hot Dog gets promoted to Viper training officer. Like [[User:Talos|Talos]] said, he's the best of what's left.
*We see Baltar's lawyer for the first time: Galvatron!
That's all I've got for this week, folks. See you at ''The Crossroads!'' --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 15:08, 9 March 2007 (CST)
==Social dissent is not the same as terrorism==

I don't agree with this in the analysis portion of the page:

"Cally Tyrol correctly states that the Cylons wouldn't need to even fire one shot because they may find the Fleet had torn itself apart because of humanity's tendency towards self-destruction. However, it is also clear that she has not realized that she and the many workers are just as much apart of the problems when they essentially risked the existence of the Feet with their work strikes, the refusal of refining tylium , and disobedience toward military orders (Dirty Hands)."

As long as the strikes remained non violent killing someone's defense attorney and trying to kill others is not the same as striking for one's rights. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 12:20, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

Never said it was terrorism.  I just took issue with Cally's little speech about how the fleet could tear itself apart because of Baltar and that the Cylons wouldn't even need to take a shot.  It eventually led to her prejudice against Cylons, and in particular, Athena.  I just thought it was pretty hypocritical of Cally because the events of Dirty Jobs highlighted something that Adama would never tolerate, military personnel taking part in a civil strike.  For Adama, and his seriousness of having Cally be executed for treason, the strike, the lack of fuel, and disobeying direct orders are all up there.

Either case, could reword that section, but the main point I was trying to get across was the irony and the hypocrisy of listening to Cally talk about how the fleet is tearing itself apart when she and others have participated in it as well.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:27, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

==Lampkin's "kleptomania"==
The article in its current forum is arguably contradicting itself in describing Lampkin's thefts as both kleptomaniacal and intentionally manipulative behaviour. According to Wikipedia, kleptomania is "an inability or great difficultly in resisting impulses of stealing" and describes this as compulsive or uncontrolled behaviour. But, as is noted in a number of places in this article, Lampkin's actions are deliberately manipulative and highly controlled, rather than simply compulsive. He's carefully chosen the stolen objects to produce specific results. So in my view, these two explanations for his thefts are mutually exclusive, and what's seen on screen lends more support to the idea that he steals consciously and deliberately for specific reasons, rather than due to kleptomania. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 01:44, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
:Could he be justifing his kleptomania (with the reasons he explained to Apollo) after he's stolen them? So he'd steal something because of kleptomania, but then he can talk  his way out of it. His theft of Kelly's doodle-bob and Adama's jacket button didn't seem to have any reason behind them, but he said he did show restraint regarding Apollo's picture of Starbuck. [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 04:37, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

:I can see reasons for the thefts, they're aren't really random to me.  He took Roslin's glasses so that she wouldn't be taken so seriously during the trial, thus setting the atmosphere in the trial.  He took the prosecuting attorney's shoe so he can figure out how what kind of person she is, which Apollo correctly stated as she "drags her feet."  He took Baltar's pen so he could use it to manipulate Caprica-Six.  Even the photo that Lampkin said he restrained himself from taking from Apollo was manipulative in that he used that to again pierce through Apollo's defenses.  I think he's using the kleptomania as a rationale for when he is caught.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:58, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
::Psychological disorders are rarely so cut-and-dried. Most kleptomaniacs focus on stealing specific kinds of items. It's also quite possible that, as a way of coping with his kleptomania, Lampkin has learned to focus it as part of his manipulations. This is not unlike how, for example, people with manic-depression are taught to channel their moods in a productive manner. Even the seemingly-useless things, like Admiral Adama's button and Kelly's detonator casing, were taken to point Lee in specific directions, so he obviously doesn't just steal at random. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 10:18, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

== Helo as CAG ==

Although previous CAGs we've seen have all been Viper pilots, I don't understand the fuss over Helo being temporary CAG, nor do I understand the assumption that, to be CAG, one must have experience piloting Vipers. Here are some points I want to touch on:
*As recon/coordination specialists, Raptor crews are likely intimately familiar with the performance and maneuvering of the Viper squadrons they support.
*We've seen several Viper pilots flying Raptors. It's likely that Viper pilots are commonly cross-trained on Raptors, since basic Raptor flight is likely to be simpler than Viper flight. Even Dualla, who lacked any flight experience whatsoever, was able to make orbit in a damaged Raptor with instructions from an injured, morpha-doped Viper pilot.
:*As an addendum, basic Raptor flight is likely simpler because Raptor pilots have a lot more to do than just fly-and-shoot. It's probably also physically easier, since a Raptor doesn't launch from a catapult and, generally, isn't as fast or maneuverable as a Viper.
*Helo has been shown to be an expert commander, even serving as XO. Even without hands-on Viper experience, he's got the most command experience of the surviving pilots, aside from Apollo.
From a writing perspective, I think Helo was put into command because any previous Captains we've seen were obscure enough that, even though we didn't see the temporary CAG actually doing his job, the writers didn't want to leave us scratching our heads. Remember, not everyone obsesses over the show like we do. :) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 12:35, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:I don't think it's really that hard to understand why Helo would become CAG as well.  He is the only other pilot besides Apollo who had been present with CIC/Fleet leadership meetings.  He was there when the leadership discussed the mandala and definitely his leadership experience as temporary XO and other duties make him a great fit for the job.  In addition, Adama knows Helo a lot more than the other captains that could have been chosen, and for Adama it's all about family.

:Plus, I just think Helo kicks butt when it comes down to it.  Look at the guy!  He's survived a nuclear holocaust.  Outran and outsmarted most of those darn centurions.  Impregnated a cylon girl.  Escaped off Caprica.  Saved Athena from a rapist.  Performed mercy killing for some Cylons.  Stood up to Tigh, Roslin, and Adama on many occasions.  Piloted a raptor through intense radiation.  Stopped a racist doctor from murdering.  And now is the CAG for all the Viper/Raptor pilots.  What is there not to love about Helo?!  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:58, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
::Agreed. All hail Helo! --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:19, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Adama's model ship ==

Contrary to the note added to "[[Maelstrom]]", I think it's still destroyed. What Adama damaged was the masts and rigging, then he threw it off the table. But the rest could have survived that fall more or less intact. In "The Son Also Rises" it's still damaged. He just put the broken masts on top, but they lean very noticeably to the side. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:27, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 :I can see reasons for the thefts, they're aren't really random to me.  He took Roslin's glasses so that she wouldn't be taken so seriously during the trial, thus setting the atmosphere in the trial.  He took the prosecuting attorney's shoe so he can figure out how what kind of person she is, which Apollo correctly stated as she "drags her feet."  He took Baltar's pen so he could use it to manipulate Caprica-Six.  Even the photo that Lampkin said he restrained himself from taking from Apollo was manipulative in that he used that to again pierce through Apollo's defenses.  I think he's using the kleptomania as a rationale for when he is caught.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:58, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
 ::Psychological disorders are rarely so cut-and-dried. Most kleptomaniacs focus on stealing specific kinds of items. It's also quite possible that, as a way of coping with his kleptomania, Lampkin has learned to focus it as part of his manipulations. This is not unlike how, for example, people with manic-depression are taught to channel their moods in a productive manner. Even the seemingly-useless things, like Admiral Adama's button and Kelly's detonator casing, were taken to point Lee in specific directions, so he obviously doesn't just steal at random. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 10:18, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
-:::It's also explicitly called kleptomania in the podcast. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:30, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
 == Helo as CAG ==
@@ Line 73: / Line 71: @@
 Contrary to the note added to "[[Maelstrom]]", I think it's still destroyed. What Adama damaged was the masts and rigging, then he threw it off the table. But the rest could have survived that fall more or less intact. In "The Son Also Rises" it's still damaged. He just put the broken masts on top, but they lean very noticeably to the side. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:27, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
-:Can someone get a screenshot of the damaged ship?  From how he totally ripped the thing apart, I would be surprised that they would even keep the model around. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 14:58, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
-::He only ripped apart the rigging. Maybe the prop department made a "fake" destroyed ship. Being in the background it doesn't even need that much detail. [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v25/8-4-7-2/BSG/AdamaShip.jpg Here] you can clearly see that the masts aren't intact, though one could argue that they should be more broken. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:13, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
-:::He broke it, they bought it. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 16:10, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
-== More Lampkin. ==
-Romo seemed entitled to a lot further mention by way of 'noteworthy dialogue,' if we're giving people like Kelly a word in.  His insights into Lee's character and potential hints at the Cylon outlook on humanity are definitely worthy of mention. {{unsigned|Alfryd}}
-:Sure. The section is already rather long, but there are some that could be deleted in favor of others. Anything specific you have in mind? Feel free to add it yourself if you want. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:20, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
-::I've added the dialogue I thought was worth mentioning, but I'm a little uncertain of what you could drop.  Perhaps the initial Lampkin quotes, or parts of Cally Tyrol or Kelly? --[[User:Alfryd|Alfryd]]
-== Dubbing/Muting ==
-During an exchange between the Adama's, something the Admiral says is muted. Lee asks, "So that's it. You're grounding me?" The Admiral's lips move for a bit (no audio or subtitles), then he adds (audibly) "And you're the only one I can trust." (Though the subtitles omit the "And".) Does anybody (maybe with mad lip-reading skills) have any idea what he says? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
-: SC 20, Full 2nd Blue (11/6/06) version of the script has Adama's reply as: "If whoever's doing this is one of our own, you're the only one I can trust." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
-::Awesome! Having an inside source is great! Is that noteworthy on the episode guide? It looks like they decided to downplay the paranoia/internal suspicion angle (maybe they thought it'd point too quickly to the actual answer), but failed to cut out that part of the scene. I'm no editing expert, but it seems like it would've been better just to snip the part where Adama was saying that first part. The RDM podcast is still going on about the cat at that point, so I'm not sure how much more illumination we'll get on this particular snafu. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 21:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)