Editing Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I've watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I'm glad I did so. I'd have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I'll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship's ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely because the Raptor's sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:It still doesn't make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter's computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn't be all that much

::Simple answer: it wouldn't have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica's landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it's hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo's Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)

::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. 
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died". 
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::That's all opinion.  Everybody's entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D'Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)

What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378
:This isn't Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I'm not sure why  the returning rapters & pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I've read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn't solve the problem.  The 'hot' ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn't free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Fourth squadron leader ==

As we saw at the end of this episode, ''Galactica'' has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat's death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word "Times" :) You've got better eyes then I do.
::It was Ricky "Two Times" Richardson. I'm currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.
:::::I do too, it doesn't pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)

==Jupiter = Zeus==
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that "Jupiter" was replaced by "Zeus". I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the "Eye of Jupiter" is interesting (I'm leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three's line about "their gods and ours" that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:It's not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they'll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Maybe we're wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn't married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.

:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they've decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren't seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Hera's roman equivalent is Juno, but it's clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it's safe to suppose that they're just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)

I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)

== Hot Dog's name ==

Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog's name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one "N", not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)

== Hybrid's Quote ==

Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it'd look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)

==Carol-Anne?==

Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it's hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)

:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)

::He, the cc, and canon have her as "Caroline". --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)

==Three killing herself softly==
I'm having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D'Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it's logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she's being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she'd download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she's resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D'Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D'Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship's storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They ''do'' have another Rez' Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can't or won't investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You'd also think that a Cylon's death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D'Anna. I always thought that they just don't talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon's repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six & the other Sharon killing D'Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D'Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can't stop someone like D'Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 12 December 2006 (EST)

== Slip? ==
I removed the following from the Analysis:
* One of D'Anna's sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D'Anna says "Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?" where "their" refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and "ours," the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D'Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.

Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the "ours" to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It's more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don't think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of "us". But mostly, let's just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)

That's actually why I described it as a "possible slip," though I think it's considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D'Anna if he's one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue "at-hand" and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it's either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it's thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki's analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:I don't really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I'll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:: It's good. I've re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)

== Boxey? ==

Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat's picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the "MISSING" poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:I'll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid's lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  "''Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction''." aka "WHERE'S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!" --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Arguing with thyself ==

The "Carol-Anne" vs. "Caroline" subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here's what was removed:

*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]'s mother was named as "Caroline" in "[[Act of Contrition]]", but in a flashback in "[[Scattered]]", Adama refers to his wife as "Anne", whom Tigh calls Adama's "new wife". This new information suggests that both "Caroline" and "Anne" are variants of a single person's name.
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.

Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)

== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==

That's pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)
:We don't have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an "it" than a "her" and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered ''something'' in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion's Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can't just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the ''Hybrid'' know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D'Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn't look like any of the 7 models we've seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 14 December 2006 (EST)
@@ Line 83: / Line 83: @@
 ::::I don't think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.
 :::::I do too, it doesn't pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)
-:The other squadron leader is Delphi "[[Falcon#Falcon|Falcon]]" Birch. I love my Blu-Ray. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 19:07, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
 ==Jupiter = Zeus==
@@ Line 98: / Line 96: @@
 :: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)
-Hera's roman equivalent is Juno, but it's clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it's safe to suppose that they're just alternate names. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)
+Hera's roman equivalent is Juno, but it's clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it's safe to suppose that they're just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)
 Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)
 I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek
-:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)
+:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-::Yeah, that didn't occur to me but that's an even better connection. I imagine that and to a lesser extent Saturn would be the main visual markers. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 14:46, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-I think most everyone thought about the planet. I'm iffy to think if it actually translates to that, though, because once they find even one planet in the solar system, it would take something really clever to delay finding Earth at that point. It's not like they'd have to search too far to see this orb. However, and I can't take credit for figuring this out, you can't deny the coincidence of the fact that Jupiter is the fifth planet in the system (excluding dwarfs). I'm thinking of waiting to see what the five Cylons are about to see if there's a connection. And in another probably-not-a-coincidence, which I can claim as my own conjecture, it's interesting that this all revolves around number Three. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 == Hot Dog's name ==
@@ Line 120: / Line 115: @@
 ==Carol-Anne?==
-Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)
+Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)
 :I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it's hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)
@@ Line 130: / Line 125: @@
 ==Three killing herself softly==
 I'm having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D'Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it's logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)
-:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she's being aided by other Threes? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)
+:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she's being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)
-::in [[Hero]], it was clearly shown as a Three, Five, Six, and an Eight. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 15:21, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 :Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she'd download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she's resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D'Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D'Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)
 :We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship's storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They ''do'' have another Rez' Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can't or won't investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You'd also think that a Cylon's death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D'Anna. I always thought that they just don't talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon's repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six & the other Sharon killing D'Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D'Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can't stop someone like D'Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 15 December 2006 (EST)
+::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You'd also think that a Cylon's death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D'Anna. I always thought that they just don't talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon's repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six & the other Sharon killing D'Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D'Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can't stop someone like D'Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 12 December 2006 (EST)
-:::A Cylon dying aboard a baseship isn't that suspicious, someone could fall and die, or somehow get hurt severly enough to commit suicide. What the Cylons should be wondering is why there is a body of a dead Three with a Centurion bullet right through her head, while she has no other injuries whatsoever (i.e. no reason to commit suicide) and the Centurions' logs don't make mention of the incident. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-:::Series history shows that other Cylon agents tend not to talk about other models until confronted with obvious evidence of their connection. "Boomer" Valerii, even after shooting Adama, did not claim herself as a Cylon. [[Sharon Agathon|"Caprica" Valerii]] didn't reveal [[D'Anna Biers]] or [[Cavil]] despite her increasing loyalty. This may also be a programming block. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-:::: Okay, but then how did D'Anna get around this programming block? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:56, 15 December 2006 (EST)
-:::Spencerian a point there (such a programming block would be a very logical move, making it impossible to torture the identity of other Cylons out of known ones), but I don't think it's related. Baltar knows all 7 models revealed so far, and all Cylons know that, so there would be no reason not to talk about them, and no block to get around. Also remember that [[Caprica-Six]] is the one to tell Baltar that Three is "doing things". Your idea that the Cylons don't talk about her death trips may be true, but keep in mind that she was pretty authoritarian in ''Torn'' when ordering the basestar to jump while the other Cylons are still in discussion. The Threes seem to have some kind of authority over the other models, which could be related to her low number (Number One would be the big boss of course, so if One and Two are with the Final Five, Three would be "in command"). So if the Threes are really the surpreme model or the commanders of this particular basestar, the others might not be eager to speak foul of one of the Threes because they fear consequences. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:17, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-::::This is possible even without a hierarchical structure, as well. Culturally the feeling might be "That's none of our business," or along the lines of giving her the benefit of the doubt that whatever she's doing is for the good of the Cylons. They don't really have the concept of traitors within their own society (Sharon Agathon excluded), so the idea of keeping close tabs on someone may be culturally taboo. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-:::::Wait a second, what about Caprica Six and Boomer Sharon killing a Three? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 14:34, 15 December 2006 (EST)
-::::::True. Though they DID believe at the time they were doing it for the greater good of the Cylons. It wasn't an act of treason against the Cylons (like Sharon Agathon's taking of the colonial oath and theft of the launch keys) so much as a regrettable action taken in order to serve the greater good. Which, as it turns out Three would be begging to be killed (repeatedly) a little over a year later, which has to take at least a little of the sting out of that particular little "betrayal". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:46, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-:::::Steelviper has a good point here, it could just be a "Don't mind other models' business?"-thing. Now Three killing herself over and over again may be odd to the others, but at least it's not harmful or treason or whatever (like 6&8 killing that 3), so they'll probably think like "if she wants to be crazy, let her, as long as she does no harm". --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 17:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 == Slip? ==
@@ Line 171: / Line 157: @@
 Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)
-:The first bullet point was mine, and I will defend it as-is. The second represents my older opinion, and is by no means a re-wording of the above point. If it is to stay I think it needs to present new argumentation. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:43, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-*So is the info in the William Adama wiki page here inaccurate?  The article makes the distinction between Caroline and Anne.  Which is right?  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:17, 18 December 2006 (CST)
-*It seems that may be possible, though it's distinctly unclear which is correct... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 13:23, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 == How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==
@@ Line 182: / Line 162: @@
 That's pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)
 :We don't have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an "it" than a "her" and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered ''something'' in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion's Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can't just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the ''Hybrid'' know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D'Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn't look like any of the 7 models we've seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 15 December 2006 (EST)
+::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the ''Hybrid'' know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D'Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn't look like any of the 7 models we've seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 14 December 2006 (EST)
-:The Hybrid may be a sort of an oracle. We've seen an oracle on New Caprica in Exodus Part II, and she was right in stating that Hera lived. There are also striking similarities between the two scenes: both concern prophecies, both concern Number Three and Hera, and both imply some kind of connection between the Colonial pantheon and the Cylon god (at the very least the oracle scene in Exodus seems to confirm the existence of the Cylon god). This leads me to thing that the Hybrid knows all this because it has the gift op prophecy ("She experiences life very different from us, Gaius. She swims in the heavens." - Number Six, Torn). And as to the nature of the Hybrid: there is a shot of the Hybrid in Torn that seems to show the Hybrid having an 'open' back, i.e. you see a lot of flesh where its back should be, and there are a lot of plugs exiting it there. That's probably why they call it a Hybrid, since it's some kind of combination between an organic being and a machine (even more than the Raiders). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-:::As stated in the [[Hybrid]] article, it is a Cylon, but not a [[Cylon agent]] and certainly (since it appears in all basestars) not a Five member. We can guess all we want, but it's too speculative until we get more gems tonight in the mid-season cliffhanger. While it is possible that the Hybrid can have prescience like an oracle, the Cylons are too dumb to ask it, despite their encyclopedic knowledge of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] (which pretty much patterns out what the Colonials are probably doing).--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-::::I don't think the Cylons are too dumb to ask it. It has nothing to do with "dumb." For one, maybe they have asked it, but they can't decipher her cryptic responses. Secondly, if Baltar is a Final-Five Cylon, he's just shown that he's not too dumb to ask it. Maybe it's a plot thing: if a Cylon asks it, and it just says "oh it's at these coordinates," the show is over. -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:54, 15 December 2006 (EST)
-:::::The Cylons, as a race, are extremely young (probably no less than 75 years old). Therefore, they likely don't know how to ask or even how to interpret any answers, since they don't have a history of their own that doesn't directly tie in to human history. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:38, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-::::::What Joe said, which clarifies my earlier comment. The Cylons are intelligent, no doubt. But they lack  the ''context'' to understand all the data in front of them, while, to humans, context is easy to grasp. Note the difference in how both races felt about the Lion's Head probe. The Cylons thought (and still continue to believe, it seems) it was a ruse for the virus, while the Colonials understood its significance immediately. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:54, 15 December 2006 (CST)
-== Logic Holes. ==
-So was the impenetrable radioactive gas Cloud slash Star Cluster Thingee that they absolutely ''had'' to go through (which they somehow could detect an algae-rich planet through), completely enveloping the entirety of the solar system, like a shell?  Because, if it wasn't, no matter how big it was, they could've just gone around without, you know, people having to die.  And there is not much of an excuse for not going around (cannot be circumnavigated? -- space is three dimensional) considering the vast amounts of space they have crossed in the past, even just getting to that point.  Yeah, they haven't much food left, but folks can survive a few extra days without food; they can't eventually eat their protein mush if half the ships are dead or lost in a rather unpleasant... uh... Cloud Thing.
-:There are many very plausible explanations.  For example:  They got to the star cluster and then their food got contaminated, reviewed astrometric logs and noticed that the algae planet was there, but oops, it's too late to go around.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:58, 4 January 2007 (CST)
-And the one that really got to me...  They needed the raptors to calculate the jumps and guide the civilian ships through the Unpleasant Radioactive Hot Death Field of Pain, but, the Bad Cloud of Yellow Ouch made stuff hard to see, causing lost ships and dead people.  So, why not just attach the raptors to the ships, or hell, ride inside?  They would know exactly where their target ship was because they would be in/on it, and they could safely, quickly, calculate the jump through the Big Bad Chernobyl Cloud to the Algea Smothered Planet of Infinite Convenience and Coincidence.  Just a thought.  --[[User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson|Jeffrey O. Gustafson]] [[User_Talk:Jeffrey O. Gustafson|&lt;*&gt;]] 06:45, 22 December 2006 (CST)
-:As discussed elsewhere on this page, the extreme heat would melt the Raptors to the ships if they tried an attach-move. Also not all ships have landing bays able to harbor a Raptor. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:07, 22 December 2006 (CST)
-==Clue to The Fleet's location?==
-So, am I right in saying that our intrepid fugitives just travelled through a [[Wikipedia:Globular cluster|globular star cluster]]? If so, according to the info on Wikipedia, doesn't that give us a hint as to where in the galaxy they might be- "orbits the galactic core as a satellite"? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 13:54, 9 January 2007 (CST)
-== Why No Plan B? ==
-Since Athena had already made the journey, she must have had the coordinates for the jumps she made to get to the Algae planet. Why not give the coordinates to the civilian ships before they began, for use in the event that they got separated from their escorts? It might not work, but it seems safer than a [[blind jump]] and it beats certain death in the radiation. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 16:42, 8 July 2011 (EDT)