Editing Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page.  --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree.  Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::The military part was excellent. The abortion part was grotesque dishonest, and insulting to the millions of us out here who are pro-life. It was not a fair representation of pro-life views at all. All the "pro-lifers" were unthinking bigots - all the "pro-choicers" were noble sufferers. This is how it COULD have been fair: The Gemenese ambassador wouldn't have said "our religion tells us abortion is obscene;" she would have said: "our common sense tells us that a baby in his/her mother's womb is, in fact, a human being - therefore it is obscene to murder that human being." THAT'S what pro-lifers actually believe - you know, in real life. Also...pro-lifers don't believe that children are the property of their parents. That's simply a slander. [[User:Jmdoman|Jmdoman]] 06:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

:: With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. [[User:Shred|Shred]] 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Wow I just realized. Admiral Adma is a horible commander in the CIC.  His son was able to take out a Baseship by doing some basic maneuvers while the Admiral does almost nothing in the CIC. --[[User:Sith Penguin Lord|Sith Penguin Lord]] 15:36, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)


Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol.  Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO.  Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--<font color="#4b0082">'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]'''</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">'''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'''''</font> 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Tigh does not want command, and Lee is so much more suited than Tigh, plus the only reason Tigh is the XO of Galactica is that he is friends with William Adama.  Adama has promoted the next highest officers to command twice, and that had failed him, so that is why he chose Lee. --[[User:Sith Penguin Lord|Sith Penguin Lord]] 17:19, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub.  So again, as a plot issue, I think it works.  But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically.  But that's just me.  ^_^;;;--<font color="#4b0082">'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]'''</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">'''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'''''</font> 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all!  New here.  And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet.  Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks.  Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair".  I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet).  It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences.  Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans.  Like me.  ^_- --<font color="#4b0082">'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]'''</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">'''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'''''</font> 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:::::The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of ''Pegasus'' Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)


Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts.  By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances.  Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function.  Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends.  Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function.  But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise.  [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)


Apollo was indeed  promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]



On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee.  There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others. 

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers. 

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.  

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job. 

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode.  This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count.  That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth.  In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects.  Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly.  Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying.  Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode.  --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen.  2 more die off screen.  3 babies are born off screen.  We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population).  President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant.  [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right.  --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent.  This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not.  Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit.  While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet?  Just curious.  [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)



BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus.  I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode.  It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg  I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively.  This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4  Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's".  For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

::See the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the [[Miniseries]], when ''Colonial Heavy 798'' first docks on ''Galactica'' for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are ''floating''  while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Ahh, but we also see the flight pod that has been converted to a museum was in possession of artificial gravity in the decommissioning ceremonies. I'm not adding this to rule out your theory Spencerian, but merely to add that we don't have any clear evidence to say whether they can switch the artificial gravity on or off in the flight pods (the museum could also been an anomaly all its own). --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 00:25, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::Another thing, the starboard flight deck (the one converted to a museum) still had its artificial gravity active when the Heavy Raider crashed into it in "[[Scattered]]" -- the Raider stays anchored to the deck and Cylons can be seen walking out of it.  Since the whole starboard pod was pretty much abandoned, why would they leave the gravity on and thus using unnecessary power? --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 02:02, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I watched the episode again tonight, and paid extra-careful attention to how the Vipers were recovered. During the sequence, a few Vipers are flying with their dorsal vertical stabilizer and canopy away from our POV (so we see their underside), and a few Vipers (Thrace's among them) are flying with their vertical stabilizer and canopy towards our POV (so we're looking "down" at the top of the pilot's head). If you watch carefully, the former Vipers "disappear" into the upper landing bay, and the camera tracks along with the latter Vipers as they land in the lower landing bay. Because we're so disoriented, we might ''think'' that we're the ones that are hanging upside-down, when, in fact, the Vipers are the ones doing the inversion. Because in Space, there is no up or down, this is entirely feasible, and recovery is just as accomplishable in both orientations, especially when one factors in Spencerian's suggestion of magnetic plates. The only real mystery to us, then, is how they re-orient everything once '''''inside''''' the flight pod's internal compartments. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 01:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:<br>
: <font style="color: #00ff00;">[[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]].</font><br>
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess &mdash; it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically &mdash; but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck.  I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't ''know''.--[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter?  I don't know.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand.  Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::I believe the pro-abortion writers of this episode thought it was a good idea to slander religious people (for whom the Gemenese are an obvious stand-in) by this "property" line. For the record - NO ONE in the pro-life movement believes that children are the "property" of their parents. Pro-choicers are the ones that believe that. The Pro-life position is that no one - not the mother, the father, or the grandparents - has the right to aborttion, because abortion is the killing of a human being. The writers can disagree with the pro-life position, but they shouldn't misrepresent it.[[User:Jmdoman|Jmdoman]] 06:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
:::*"The writers can disagree with the pro-life position, but they shouldn't misrepresent it." Then where do you get off misrepresenting the Pro-Choice position? Pro-Choice supporters do not believe that children are property, and we don't believe that women are the property of the government subject to its control. And we don't believe the anti-abortion crowd is really "pro life" since they would let children suffer and die from lack of food and medical care once they're out of the womb. That's not pro life; that's pre-life. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 21:52, 3 July 2011 (EDT)

*In the [[w:Marriage#In_the_Hebrew_Bible_.28Old_Testament.29|Old Testament of the Bible]], women were treated as the property of their husbands and wives could be purchased from their fathers. This seems congruent with the Gemenese view regarding children. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 10:39, 3 July 2011 (EDT)

== "To Be, or Not... To Be" ==

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:
: <font style="color: #00ff00;">[[Roslin]] references  Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh".   It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies of Kobol|Colonies]].</font>

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of ''Law & Order'' state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has '''''nothing''''' to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting ''Hamlet''. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin ''here'' is attributed to Shakespeare, it ''does not mean'', nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago.  Utterly.  Two to one, motion stands.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation ([[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|as opposed to sources]]), our policy is to generally leave the item ''within the article'' and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= Administrators] here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this &mdash; but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the ''canon'' storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (<font style="color: #000000;">Alphaboi867</font>) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:''Hawke suggests:''
The script for [[Laura Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'', when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of [[The Twelve Colonies of Kobol|Colonies]], or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

:This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:
::[[Laura Roslin]] quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] that she's gotten her "pound of flesh". 
:And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for [[Laura Roslin]]... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's ''crucial'' that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies ''unless'' or ''until'' it is substantiated further. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh."? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::: That works fine, in my opinion. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:28, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Anachronism of using Shakespearian refrences aside for a moment...did anyone else pick up on the distinctive Literal interpretation of Rosalyn's usage of "Pound of Flesh" during this specific conversation?  The conversation centers around a teenaged girl who aborted her pregnancy 4 months into the gestation...so the phrase here can be taken with a double meaning...somewhat tastlessly really. (at 4 months the average human fetus weighs approx 300 grams, or a tad shy of a full pound). Another queston beyond Refrencing common Anglo expresions would be what about units of Measurement...why would the 12  Colonies use a standard English Pound as a unit of mass/weight?...--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:No.  Just, just no.  Look, I've sworn off yelling at people, but that is A) a complete ''non sequitor'' (it came out of nowhere) and B) disgusting.  NO.  I mean; Sarah Porter (Rep, Gemenon) is against abortion, so how is letting Rya have an abortion "''giving her''" anything?!  Look, this doesn't need a response or anything, but this was a really wacky thing to say Strato (in my opinion).  Let's move on now. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:57, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:Do you really want [[Laxon|invented units of measure]]? TOS did it, but considering they're speaking English on the show, I'm willing to concede all units of measure are being "translated" as well (into American English, apparently, since they're not using SI units). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:34, 21 February 2006 (EST)

::Also note that they use feet on their Altimeters and Pounds per Square Inch on their pressure valves. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Its hardly a non-sequitor ...I honestly believe the literal interpretation/double meaning of the phrase is the reason it was chosen, and used by the writers.
I believe that  Porter was meant to understand the double meaning as well, and thats why she was as angry as she was...not just because she didn't get her full wishes granted.  Is it gross? of course it is. but by refrencing a "pound of flesh" in this context, it not only means that the Gemonese have forced a law outlawing abortion, but that enough blood has litterally and figurativly been spilt on this one issue, and that Rosalyn would not give another inch.  I believe that since the entire point of the Abortion issue being raised in the series to look at the morality vs. immorality of a womans right to control her own body, vs. religious beliefs, and the "reality" of repopulating the Colonial fleet, you might as well look at the issue and not just play lipservice to the questions asked in the episode.I by no means am encouraging a flame war on abortion...as our own personal views don't really matter in realtion to the series writing...either way...I would hardly call the point "wacky"--[[User:Strato|Strato]]
::It's only gross because abortion is kinda gross. If that ''was'' the writer's intent, it's pretty much the only honest thing they did in the otherwise slanted and dishonest take on abortion (pro-lifer's don't believe that children are the "property" of their parents. Pro-choicers believe that.)[[User:Jmdoman|Jmdoman]] 06:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
::*In another comment, you say "Also...pro-lifers don't believe that children are the property of their parents. That's simply a slander." Then you repeat the same slander here about those who believe in the freedom to choose. I could argue that you people believe that women are the property of government, since they shouldn't have control over their own bodies, but I don't feel my own position is so weak that I have to lie about yours. To call the writers' presentation of the issue "dishonest" is simply a case of projection, since you appear incapable of honestly assessing the issue yourself. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 22:08, 3 July 2011 (EDT)

== Councillor -> Delegate ==
I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Character_Titles|Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions]]. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==How much is too much?==

I know this was brought up in another episode of the season, in that we should be mindful of how much information is provided for each episode.  For the information that's being provided in summary, how much should we include?  Some veteran input would be greatly appreciated. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:32, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:I agree that this needs concision badly, and separation between the "A" and "B" plots. Try to stick to the rough outlines of the plot, and save salient details for Notes. Be bold. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:49, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Well I edited a fair bit, taking out some extra explanations. I think we have to look at these summaries as more of a sports recap the day after the game rather then a play-by-play of the whole episode. I think more time should be spent on individual pages (Eg. Lee Adama) rather then explanation what happens to him in detail in the episode. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:33, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::: Oh and my apologies to April Arcus for removing his notable dialogue stuff, had an older copied and pasted version which overwrote your stuff, D'oh!! --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:36, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:::No. Wrong.  It is more convenient/efficient to describe/question/analyze events in an episode, within that episode's own page.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I think his point is that it's only worth doing if the points are interesting. This is not a transcript, we don't need a blow-by-blow of each quivering facial expression that plays out on Bamber and Sakhoff's faces in any given scene. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 20:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::: Aye, exactly. Thanks for clarifying! Also, it might be easier to just throw it on the episode page, but in the end it has to be done on the character/object/whatever page so why not spend more time putting there instead. (Eg. Apollo getting shot can be mentioned on the episode, but it will have to go on Apollo's page anyway, so no point in being overly descriptive. --22:08, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::::Thank you everyone for the comments.  It was really nice to see comments from season vets (Farago) as well as some new faces to the Wiki.  The recent summary changes look good, and it it's good to touch on what's consider vague versus verbose through discussions such as this. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 00:55, 20 February 2006 (EST)

==Casualties==

Rexpop writes:
:There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'' , only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties occurred during the venting of the fire and was largely due to the conflicting damage control orders given by Kelly, Tyrol and Tigh rather than the actual impact of the missile.

I don't think either of these points bears up to scrutiny. As to the first, I'm willing to wait until next friday, but I can almost promise you that the count won't be pushed any lower - we thought something similar after the surprisingly low casualty count between "Valley of Darkness" and "Fragged", but no other deaths were added on later.

As for the second point, that's simply not the case - Tigh knew that if he waited for the repair crews to evacuate, the fuel lines would blow, and Adama not only backed up his decision but said that he'd have made the same one in his place. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:It would have been amusing if they did blow and the series ended right there. I dunno what we'd be watching in its place, but there's probably plenty of ideas floating around. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not disputing whether or not Tigh's decision was or wasn't the correct one. I was making the point that the bulk of the Galactica's casualties (around 80 or so) came from the decision to vent the atmosphere in those sections while the DC teams (that had moved into the section to deal with the fire) were evacuating rather than from the impact of the missile. I've edited the comment to remove the sentence about the DC effort to try and to clear up the point. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 23:12, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Interesting point. We do hear that all the breathing gear was used up in firefighting ops, which the dead deck crew are criticized for neglecting in the mini. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 23:54, 19 February 2006 (EST)

What I don't buy is the fact that NO vipers were lost. I don't care how good the pilots are.  They had to have lost one or two vipers in the attack.--GreenDalek

They weren't fighting to win, they were fighting to survive. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:27, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::That STILL doesn't make sense. In a battle that big, you can't get away with no casualties. Logically, it just doesn't make sense. --[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:48, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== what was Baltar working on? ==

When the episode cuts to Laura Rosalyn consulting with Gaius Baltar in his labratory over the population projections for the fleet, Baltar is working on some sort of tissue sample. I am very curious as to what he was doing, and what/whom the tissue sample was  taken from?

==Tigh's command status==
''Moved from "Questions"''
***Fleet protocols, as in the real-world US Navy and other naval services around the globe, would require Tigh, as the senior officer to take command, as he did when Adama was incapacitated.
****This is true for an intra-ship command structure, but if other qualified officers were available, Col. Tigh probably had the privilege to pass up the command of ''Pegasus,'' citing XO's prerogative (or something similar).
****Using US Navy protocal, when Bill Adama was promoted to Admiral by President Roslin to command the fleet, a new commander of Galactica would have been named.  This allows ADM Adama the ability to focus on fleet objectives and goals while the respective battlestar commanders deal with the issues of each ship.  ADM Adama may have named Tigh as the Galactica commander and like Lee Adama's promotion to Major, it is an event not seen. 
*****No, they do not appear to follow US Navy protocol here; Admiral Cain had Colonel Fisk as her XO, and Admiral Cain described her self as "Pegasus Actual" while in command of the Fleet.  Admiral Adama appears to still be the commanding officer of ''Galactica''.

== Backlash from previous episodes? ==

This episode had the lowest [[List of Nielsen ratings (RDM)|Nielsen ratings]] figure that an episode of the Re-Imagined Series received up to that point, although the episode was well-received by critics and fans; ''this is possibly the backlash from what Ron Moore himself feels were the less desirable episodes "Black Market" and "Sacrifice".''

"Less desirable" seems like an opinion (although for "[[Black Market]]": it's true), and the theory/possibility itself lacks a source. [[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 10:25, 22 September 2007 (CDT)
:It sounds a bit POV, but you will probably find a cite in the podcasts. Certainly for "Black Market". Maybe for "Sacrifice" too. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:34, 22 September 2007 (CDT)
::"This is also an episode I had certain issues with. It's not my favorite episode of the season. I don't openly dislike it, though, you may be relieved to know, like I did openly dislike "Black Market" a couple of weeks ago. My problem with "Black Market" was that I felt that it- ultimately fell short of what the show is about in terms of what type of story we were trying to tell and that ultimately it was just to conventional- for what we we're- what I think the show does best. This- this- this show, I think, works in parts. I think it has a lot of interesting ideas in it. I think there's specific places where I think we stumble and don't quite deliver on all- on all that the show can be, and I'll try to identify those as we go through." - [[Podcast:Sacrifice#Teaser|Teaser, Sacrifice Podcast]]
::Here's a relevent quote from RDM about those two eps. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:54, 22 September 2007 (CDT)