Editing Talk:Small arms/Archive 1

I'll get some screen captures of some of these later, tonight or tomorrow. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:14, 9 January 2007 (CST)

== "POV" in terms of voice ==

While the article is informative, it's voiced "out-of-universe" and so reads more like a behind-the-scenes article of props than a description of what the weapon might be able to do based on its real-world counterpart or on-screen action. When I run into articles like this, I usually use a References section to move the behind-the-scenes comments or sources out of the way of the main text so that article reads better. Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:24, 9 January 2007 (CST)
:Concur. Super-informative, but TONS of real world references. However... without the real world references, is there really much worth commenting on? "The Colonials use various pistols, rifles, and submachine guns, sometimes equipped with various accessories such as grenade launchers." That may be oversimplifying just a tad, but ultimately most of the notability of the small arms is the fact that they use some (particular) real world weapons (or at least props that look like real world weapons). Should there be a split between a "Small arms" article and a "behind the scenes" category "Weapons used in the Series" type article? However, as is stated in the opening paragraph, there's not much canon regarding the small arms, so the in-universe articl would be considerably smaller. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::SV gives my thoughts exactly, I support splitting it into two articles, a small realworld one, which won't have much. It'd have info on the explosive rounds and such, stuff we know. Then a "Weapons Used in Battlestar Galactica" or somesuch for the real-world gear. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:01, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:As said, the only thing this article has going for it, is what real-life weapons are used. There is really nothing else to say. Having two articles would be alright, even if one will be very short --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:49, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Optionally, we can create a new article, "Props used in Battlestar Galactica". This would discuss the many real-life objects and their origin as this page does with weapons, and add these items. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:58, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:::I don't know. Generally, it's a good idea, but the guns are relatively prominent in the series, so there is a lot of information about them. Maybe enough to warrant an own sub-article in addition to the other props. A way to seperate the "real-world" information a bit could be to create a "behind the scenes" tag like "silly" and "seperate continuity".
:::Alternatively, if an in-universe small arms section is pretty small, we could just keep that information on [[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series]] and add explosives and the RPG from "Exodus, Part I" to it. Then an own tiny article isn't needed and this one could be renamed/reworded to make out more "behind the scenes" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:33, 11 January 2007 (CST)
::::I like it. Small paragraph or two in "Weapons" for in-universe, rename/recatogorize/etc. this article to indicate behind the scenes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:49, 11 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Sounds like it generates the same effect I'd prefer to keep the voices right. Let's do that. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:55, 11 January 2007 (CST)
::::::So the voices are telling you that's the way it should be done? (Just don't talk back to the voices, they won't put up with sass.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:02, 11 January 2007 (CST)

== SA-80 comments ==

Are the issues surrounding the SA-80 rifle really relevant to this article? Aside from the fact that they are not entirely accurate (The current A2 version is seen as a marked improvement), these issues are not really important to someone's viewing or understanding of BSG.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 05:53, 15 January 2007 (CST)
:Right. I'll remove it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 15 January 2007 (CST)

I've made a change to the SA80 comments '''from:'''
SA-80s without the SUSAT sight are seen with the foresight and rear-sight/carry handle ''unfolded'' and in use
'''To:'''
SA-80s without the SUSAT sight have no aiming mechanism if the fore and rear iron-sights have not been ''fitted''.

SA-80 fore and rear sights cannot be unfolded, they are slid and then bolted into place using a screw mechanism when the SUSAT is removed [[User:Sgt Teta|Sgt Teta]] 11:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks for the update, Sgt Teta! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

== standard pistol picture requested ==

Does anyone have a really good picture of the standard Colonial pistol? Preferably the Miniseries/early Season 2 version, that was based on a revolver, before they switched to the FN Five-SeveN. I think it's the most "iconic" weapon on BSG and would be a good picture for the general weapons article too. I know there are pics out there of just the weapon, not really screencaps (and not even fan replicas). But the best I could find, is from "Fragged" where Crashdown threatens Cally and Tyrols fires at the Centurions. If nothing turns up I'll use that, but just the pure weapon would be cool. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:04, 15 January 2007 (CST)
:To be honest, I think it'd be best to have a pic of the pistol that's seen most often; ie, the Five-seveN. I know the LeMat version was seen thoughout the miniseries and season one, but I'm pretty sure, scene for scene, we've seen (not scene! :P ) the Five-seveN more often. Either way, I have a couple of caps of both kicking around, whatever we decide. Let me know :) -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:32, 15 January 2007 (CST)
::There is already a pic of the Five-SeveN there (though if you want a better one look at "Torn"). I just thought it'd be nice to have both. And the "original" is still around in early Season 2 (such as "Valley of Darkness"). I think Apollo even used in "Resurrection Ship, Part I" when he was de-armed in the Raptor. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:39, 15 January 2007 (CST)
:::I can get one of the early pistol, there's a good shot in the Miniseries that should work. I'll keep an eye out for a better shot of the FNs too. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:08, 15 January 2007 (CST)
::::Yeah, the Mini has some good scenes like when Boomer and Helo hold off the refugees at the Raptor. But all shots I found were very blurry. Guess I could I make my own ones, but I know there are good ones somewhere out there. And now that I think about it, Tyrol's pistol from "Fragged" is likely the semi-auto version as well. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:12, 15 January 2007 (CST)
:::::There is an excellent side shot of the S1 pistol in "Resistance" when Helo wields the pistol and MP9. I'm not sure what the time code is, because I found the pic on bsgmedia.org's "Resistance" gallery. I'm sure someone with the Season 2.0 DVDs can get the shot. --[[User:Kregano|Kregano]] 20:25, 19 January 2007 (EST)
::::::Aye, I got a screen capture of that when I was getting Skorpion pics. My internet's screwy at the moment (first time I've been online in about 48 hours. I'll upload it when it all stabilizes. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:43, 19 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::Excellent news. Can you get shots of the Resistance fighter weapons from that scene? I think Ander's pistol on "Resistance" had an underbarrel launcher too, but the only shot I've found is not very helpful. I think we need to get shots from S3 for the AK type rifle and the arms-cache from "Exodus, part 2". Shots of the Miniseries rifles would be great too. --[[User:Kregano|Kregano]] 23:55, 19 January 2007 (EST)
::::::::Talos, do you mind posting the pistol pic? I see that there are new shots for the rifle, but not the pistol. I've looked at the arms cache scene and I only see a UMP and the AK clone there, so we don't need pics of that scene. Also, I think that we should have a Related Imagery page with 1 shot of each gun, so we don't clutter the page with pics. --[[User:Kregano|Kregano]] 20:33, 4 February 2007 (EST)
:::::::::Crap, forgot all about that, sorry, I'll go do get them now. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:44, 4 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::Excellent. Looks good. And I agree that all further pictures should be added to the gallery --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:44, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::Thanks. What I'm thinking is that each section (pistol, rifle, etc) has a pic showing the most used one. The ones I'm looking at are: the two sidearms (pistol), the G-36K and Cx4 Storm (rifle), either the UMP or P-90 (SMG), and the Protecta (shotgun). The rest in the gallery. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:56, 5 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::I agree with your idea Talos. You should put the G-36K in the gallery, since it was used for Lay Down Your Burdens and never seen since. The SMG picture now being used is perfect, so put the P90 in the gallery. Also, we should make a new section on this page for gallery discussion, since the pistol request was filled and this thing is getting a bit long. --[[User:Kregano|Kregano]] 12:13, 5 February 2007 (EST)

== Ammo analysis ==

Should we have a section about the various types of ammunition used by small arms? I'm asking because ammo in various episodes have different effects. For example, the explosive rounds in "Valley of Darkness", which might be 12 gauge flares, are only powerful enough to destroy a Centurion's head, while in "Home, part One" a 12 gauge explosive round from the Protecta shotgun causes a large explosion that totally destroys the Centurion. Also Helo's pistol rounds during the restaurant fight scene, which went straight through the Centurion's head and the round he fired in the Miniseries, which have never been seen again.
--[[User:Kregano|Kregano]] 11:04, 21 January 2007 (EST)
:This article is more for an out-of-universe comparison to real weapons. If you want to add something about the ammunition you should put it here: [[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Handheld weapons]], because it's strictly in-universe. Though some of what you describe is the result of different Centurion armor. The ones who boarded the ship had heavier armor and thus needed explosive rounds. I already mentioned the HE rounds there, but some expansion doesn't hurt, as the section is very short at the moment. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:13, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Unknown bolt-action rifle identified ==
[http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/cust_remington_700.php Accuracy Systems Ultimate 700 Sniper]. I think that's the money gun. ;) [[User:Panther|Panther]] 09:44, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for that, Panther. I had a look at the URL you posted up and I found it very interesting, especially in regards to the kind of stuff that can be used to modify both the Remington Model 700 bolt-action rifle and the Remington Model 7600/7615 series pump-action rifles (most of the gear for the Model 7600 and Model 7615 are legal in Australia). In fact, I might refer that URL to the my mates over on the Australian section of AssaultWeb.Net.  

:On another note, Panther. Did you look at the Choate Ultimate Sniper rifle stock that was used on the rifle in "Resistance"? From a closer look at the stock, it appears that the stock was modified to allow the use of detachable rifle magazines - something which is not commonly seen on the rifle stocks Choate Machine and Tool makes. [[User:Roughneck Jase|Roughneck Jase]] 12:58pm, 16 June 2007 (AEST)
::To be honest, I have not seen the episode in a while. I also don't know much about that stock because I haven't had a chance to play with one. One thing that is for sure is that that any stock for a Rem 700 has to leave an opening for the magazine floor-plate. I think that would give you enough room to install a QD mag action with no or little cutting away. [[User:Panther|Panther]] 19:53, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

:::Panther,
I checked out a Winchester Model 70 rifle fitted with a Choate Ultimate Sniper rifle stock while I was visiting a gun shop up here in Brisbane back in 2006 and it was very interesting handling the rifle fitted with this rifle stock. If I ever got my hands on a Remington Model 700 or a Winchester Model 70, I would fit either one of these rifles with a Choate Ultimate Sniper stock and if the rifles had detachable magazines, I would modify the stock to accept detachable mags since Choate doesn't make any versions of the Ultimate Sniper that have wells for detachable magazines.

== A Quick Question ==
Where did Moore say that the Miniseries/Season pistol was an exact replica of the Bladerunner pistol? The two look nothing alike, though they do share some characteristics. {{unsigned|Kregano}}
: I believe such comments were made in the commentary track for the Miniseries. (It's been a while since I've listened to it, so I'm just basing what I know form memory and don't have a timestamp.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 21:19, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
:Yeah, watching the final cut, it isn't an exact match. Maybe we should just say that they are similar, or that it was modeled after it. That it's on homage to the ''Blade Runner'' blaster is obvious however: [http://props.steinschneider.com/brblaster/csserIII.htm] --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:29, 25 January 2008 (CST)

== CP1 in BSG ==

In the article it says "The Vektor CP1 has also made several appearances ("Bastille Day", "Black Market", "Sacrifice"); this is odd given a safety recall issued in 2000." but I think it's not strange at all. There is a very faithful blank firing replica of the gun made by Röhm in Germany.
[[User:Metal&#39;ead|Metal&#39;ead]] 11:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
: Have a link to Röhm's website with this info. If so, feel free to add it to the article. Cheers! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

== CX-4 in "Bastille Day?" ==

Just finished watching [[Bastille Day]], and I don't think that's a CX-4 Starbuck was using- in fact I don't think the carbine was being used by anybody until season 2. Looked to me like a P-90 in her hands, same as all the Marines were carrying. Interesting scope mounted on the top rail, plus the silencer/barrel extension, combine to change the look of the SMG so it's harder to recognize, but I'm pretty sure (99%) that it's a P-90 and not a CX-4. [[User:Darthpaul|Darthpaul]] 16:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
:I had a hard time getting a good shot of what she was shooting, but the best I could find online was 572.jpg on bsg-caps.com (I'm refraining from hotlinking out of respect to them... you can check it out yourself). It shows her standing near a railing and aiming the weapon. From what I can see in that pic, I'd tend to agree that it's not a CX-4 (and it makes sense that it'd be at a season switch when they'd start routinely using a new weapon type), but it's so loaded down with lights, slings, and sights that I really wouldn't feel confident identifying it as anything. A heavily modified P-90 would be more of a process of elimination than a good solid ID, unless somebody else can get a shot with a better angle. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

::Hey Steelviper- Check out 494.jpg on the same site, it's a shot of Kara on the left along with two Marines stalking through the ship during their infiltration. The Marine on the right is definitely armed with a heavily-tricked-out P-90. Look at the top of the weapon, you can see the tell-tale horizontal magazine. Granted, you can't really see what Starbuck is holding in this shot (looks more like a handgun, doesn't it?) but I assure you she fires this same weapon later on.  BTW, it's a pity she switched on the laser dot sight just before pulling the trigger, giving Apollo the warning to push Tom Zarek out of the way, huh? I mean, if he hadn't seen a red dot appear on Zarek, Zarek would have been dead, and given the developements in the series (especially last Friday's "The Disquiet That Follows My Soul") she would have saved our heroes a lot of trouble! [[User:Darthpaul|Darthpaul]] 17:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Well, I had seen that image, but not looked at it closely. I played with the midtones here: <nowiki>http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/steel_viper/BSG/494.jpg</nowiki> and it looks like she's carrying a P-90 with an empty rail on top in that shot. It DOES look like a handgun due to the bullpup configuration, but you can see a little of the buttstock in her shoulder on my image. The rail-barrel on the business end seems to match the rail-barrel of the guys next to her (outside of the red dot that they have on their rails). Care to take a look at my "enhanced" pic and see if you agree?

:::Yeah, well it goes without saying they went for drama over accuracy, as she'd be far more likely to use a red dot or other similar reticle, or if she really wanted a projected beam she'd use IR so people wouldn't see it without night vision goggles, etc.  The fact that she probably could have made the shot open sighted notwithstanding. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

:::: And of course you can't kill Richard Hatch in his very first appearance!  My prediction- I expect Lee Adama to end up killing Tom Zarek, just to satisfy our sense of irony- "Apollo" killing "Apollo" (grins and drinks some coffee). [[User:Darthpaul|Darthpaul]] 17:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

::::: Well, I was wrong- the firing squad killed Zarek ("Blood On The Scales"). But Lee/"Apollo" was there! [[User:Darthpaul|Darthpaul]] 17:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 

== Speculations on the Season 1 Sidearm ==

The operation of most of the weapons used on BSG are pretty self-explanatory, since they are just tricked-out/ futurized versions of a real-world weapon. The Season 1 sidearm (aka Colonial Clamshell) is a little different, since it is built around a standard revolver, yet the "shell" of the weapon hides almost all traces of the revolver cylinder and reloading mechanism, and makes it impossible for the cylinder to swing out to the side. Obviously, for filming, one would remove the shell, swing out the cylinder, load blank rounds, close it up and replace the shell- but in the world of BSG there wouldn't be time for that in the heat of a gunfight. Since we've never seen this gun being reloaded on screen, I have come up with some speculations on how it operates as a real weapon "in-universe".
The hinge on the bottom of the frame, forward of the trigger guard, is the key to the whole thing. It seems clear that this is a top-break revolver design, similar to the British Webley pistols. For reloading, an internal latch is released, the cylinder and barrel assembly of the weapon hinge forward bringing the cylinder up and out of the shell; empty cartridges would be ejected, fresh rounds inserted, and the whole thing swung back down to latch shut. The top rail would bring the cylinder up with it, disengaging it from the revolver mechanism.
I concluded that the main part of the shell must remain attached to the frame, or else there wouldn't be enough room to unload and reload. The cylinder (barely visible through a gap in the shell) must lift clear of the clamshell for reloading. The under-barrel launcher would swing down at the same time, as the whole thing is a solid assembly. As we have seen, the launcher is loaded by just stuffing a round in the front, so no further mechanism is needed there. There is a tiny metal protrusion on the frame just above the trigger, visible in the photo of the left side of the gun- this might be the cylinder latch, although it seems too small. We have seen (in Valley of Darkness) that the large switch on the upper shell is a safety- it might also be the cylinder release; perhaps it is a multi-purpose lever which can also select between the standard cylinder and explosive launcher?
I suppose we'll never really know, will we?
[[User:Darthpaul|Darthpaul]] 20:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
:Then again I could be wrong. I've just seen a working Season 1 sidearm prop where the cylinder swings out as normal for most modern revolvers, the clamshell is a 2-part affair with one part attached to the swing-arm in front of the cylinder. It swings out along with the cylinder for reloading. There's no in-universe reason that it couldn't work like this, I simply never noticed any gaps in the photos I've seen that would indicate where two halves met. Sign of a really well-made prop! [[User:Darthpaul|Darthpaul]] 14:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)