Editing Talk:Sharon Valerii/Archive1

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== Rank ==

[[Image:Starbuckboomerinsignia.jpg|frame|Screen captures show that Starbuck, Boomer, and Helo all wear the same rank insignia. Helo is known to be a Lieutenant JG, Starbuck is almost definitely a full Lieutenant, and Boomer's status is disputed.]]
The article lists her as a Lieutenant JG, but according to [http://galactica.emedian.net/ep1.12.html these pictures] she wears the same rank insignia as Starbuck. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:38, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:Does anyone have a source on the Lt. J.G. business? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 22:46, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::Per Moore's blog entry, the rank seems to exist, and in the miniseries, Starbuck notes Helo's "flying with rooks", indicating that Boomer is a new pilot. Then again, by the time she's done with basic officer training and flight school she very well may have made it all the way up to full Lieutenant. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:11, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:::Kat is definitely an Lt. J.G., as per her caption in "[[Final Cut]]". Maybe someone can get a capture of her insignia. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 23:16, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::::Boomer was a Lieutenant Junior Grade, because she was a new pilot and Lt. J.G. was the lowest officer rank (all pilots are officers).  We knew Starbuck is a full Lieutenant because she's the highest ranking pilot after Apollo.  I don't know what the frak you're talking about with these 'pictures'; you can't make out a clear shot of their rank insignia in any of them. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:59, 7 December 2005 (EST)

It's difficult but definitely possible if you look at enough. Besides, Ensign is the lowest officer rank (Ensign Davis is apparently infatuated with Crashdown in Season 1, and Ron Moore mentions the rank of Ensign in his blog post). Furthermore, the collar of Sharon's uniform jacket in "Water" gives her rank simply as "Lieutenant", not "Lieutenant Junior Grade". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Starbuck's insignia is visible in the picture where she's staring down Baltar. Sharon's is visible in one of the cockpit shots of her and Crashdown. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:OH come on, don't we all remember then endless rank-pip mix ups on ''Star Trek''?; in '''no way''' should we alter PRE-EXISTING biographical information due to insignia on their collars in a stray scene or two. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::Yeah, but we still need a ''source'' on Sharon's Lt. J.G. status if we're going to argue against on screen evidence. Has she ever actually be referred to as such? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:29, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::It's not a stray scene or two—it's every scene. Someone with HD captures or the DVDs should verify but in every picture I've seen, Boomer wears that same insignia, and so does Starbuck. And it's not just the insignia—it's the label on her uniform collar.
::Ricimer, I learned from the "twelve models" thing that when we fans make seemingly reasonable extrapolations from incomplete evidence, we screw things up. There is no direct evidence that Boomer is a JG. None.  (Kat is a J.G.—if we can get a screen capture of her insignia perhaps we could compare to Boomer and Starbuck). Yes, it's slightly implausible that a rook pilot could already be an O-3, but not out of the question. For all we know she was a retrained ECO. 
::Oooh, I just realized, Helo's a JG too. (in 33 he gives his "name, rank, and serial number"). I'm gonna check out his insignia. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

That's strange. Helo wears the same insignia too as far as I can determine. So apparently both grades of Lieutenant wear the same insignia, unless there's a very subtle difference. (There might be—Adama's and Tigh's insignia are hard to tell apart in some photos.) Also, what rank is Helo according to his caption in Final Cut? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:24, 8 December 2005 (EST)

[[Image:Valeriisharonlt.png|frame|right|The collar of Lt. Valerii's uniform jacket is labeled with her name, serial number, and rank. ("[[Water]]")]]I updated the picture. I'd still say that the preponderence of evidence (considering Boomer's uniform collar in "Water") indicates she's a full Lieutenant, barring any additional evidence to the contrary. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:34, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:If the full Lt. and Lt. J.G. insignia are the same, then what do we have to go on? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:43, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::This image. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:48, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Which image? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:56, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::::Sorry, got it uploaded now. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::::Seems credible. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)
:Boomer's insignia in the picture above (left side) looks different. On all the other Lt. pins, there is a diamond and the ends of the chevron protrude beyond it but on the pin of Boomer's right side (our left) it looks like the chevron doesn't protrude, leaving it a plain diamond. One other thing is in the Mini, Boomer's Raptor is marked "JRLIEUTENANT SHARON VALERII." --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:36, 14 December 2005 (EST)
::In "Water" before Sharon launches to find water, at 0:26:16, her rank insignia catches the light and you can see that the insignia is a diamond with no protrusions from the chevrons. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:59, 14 December 2005 (EST)
:::That had occurred to me, but the protrusions are difficult to see, yet in some shots they are visible. Furthermore, have you checked Helo's insignia for protrusions? The Raptor markings might be considered a retcon since the rank was established in "33" as "Lieutenant J.G.". Overall the evidence seems inconclusive at best, which is one reason I really, really want HD screen captures. (Word of mouth is one thing, pictures are better). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 17:02, 15 December 2005 (EST)
:::Oh yeah: Helo's chevron definitely DOES protrude, and it's completely confirmed that he's a J.G. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 17:03, 15 December 2005 (EST)
::::You should be able to see what I mean here.--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 16 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:Boomer insig.JPG|thumb|Boomer's insignia ([[Water]]).]]

OK. I agree it looks like that, but I can bring up just as many images that make it look like the edges on Adama's insignia aren't there. More importantly, there are images that clearly show Sharon and Helo's chevrons protruding. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:26, 17 December 2005 (EST)

:I agree that the collars are inconclusive. They're hard to see even on DVDs and BSG has notoriously dark lighting, shakey cameras, etc. All this, plus the ease of this a rank pin might be bothced by the costum guys makes me think that we should treat those as secondary evidence. Unless we can get a really good shot (like the Helo and Starbuck ones above) of Boomer's pin, I think we should act on the hypothesis that all Lieutenants wear the same pin, with the chevron protruding.

:So, discounting jewelry, we have the miniseries which, according to Talos, marks her ship as JRLIEUTENANT (which is suppose is the same as Lt. J.G.), and then ''Water'' which, as seen in the screen cap above, has her uniform marked "LIEUTENANT". I'd think that her uniform would have her full rank and not just part of it, so I think we can count these as contradictory. Talos, can you give us a screen cap or a rough time that the mini shows this marking? Until we can verify that, what do we do if they're both equally clear? I mean--make a note, obviously, but which is right? I'd vote that Season 1 takes precedence over the mini since this would not be the first retconn from mini to Season 1. Thoughts? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:52, 17 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:Boomer Raptor.JPG|thumb|Boomer's Raptor nameplate ([[Miniseries]])]]
::Furthermore, the rank of "Junior Lieutenant" has been retconned to "Lieutenant J.G." [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:36, 17 December 2005 (EST)

::: I'm not even sure if we need to call that a retconn. Might just have been some short hand or whatever. The meaning is pretty clearly the same. Unless someone wants to argue something about her being named after her (alleged) father or something. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:54, 17 December 2005 (EST)
::::Here's the pic of the Raptor. Also, I added a pic of couple shots from the Miniseries that show a plain diamond insignia. It seems pretty consistant that the right pin is plain but the left one has the protruding chevron like in the picture at the top of this discussion (the triple one with the Starbuck/Boomer/Helo shots). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:24, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Those have a pretty apparent chevron, Talos. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:02, 18 December 2005 (EST)

: I think you're missing the finer distinction that's under debate, Phil. THe question is not whether she's got a chevron. It is two fols: a) Does the chevron poke out of the bottom of the pin like Starbucks and b) Does that actually mean anything? If I get some free time (maybe Teusday, I think), I'll try to get a shot of Boomer/Crashdown's Raptor from my Season 1 DVDs to see if it reads the same as the Miniseries' version of the prop or not. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:23, 18 December 2005 (EST)
::Without HD captures or similar high-resolution images, we can't easily tell. Furthermore, it's an entirely settled point, because we have images showing that Helo's chevron does protrude from the edge, and Helo is indisputably a Lieutenant J.G. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 04:12, 18 December 2005 (EST)
:::I know, that's the problem. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 08:41, 18 December 2005 (EST)
::::In several instances, it appears that Lt. Gaeta has a rank insignia with non-protruding chevrons (at least the Mini and "Hand of God"). The interesting thing is, in Hand of God during the planning session around 10 minutes into the episode, Starbuck's insignia is visible and doesn't show a protruding chevron either but it does in other episodes. Weird. Sorry about the lower resolution pics, the only way I can get screenshots right now is by turning off the hardware acceleration but if you look at the edge of the insig in the new picture I just posted (the Gaeta and Starbuck one), you can't see where it should be protruding. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:18, 18 December 2005 (EST)
:I'm just replaceing some of the pics I posted with much better quality ones since I had them. Also, Boomer's Raptor in the show still says JRLIEUTENANT, it's visible in Litmus and I'll get a pic later. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:59, 23 February 2006 (EST)
[[Image:Valeriirank klgpII.JPG|thumb|Boomer's rank insignia ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])]]
[[Image:Valeriirank2 klgpII.JPG|thumb|left|([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])]]

== Article name ==

In light of what was revealed in Downloaded, the main Sharon Valerii article was renamed [[Number Eight]]. I think that this article should be renamed to simply Sharon Valerii, as this copy is the only one who was actually given that name. Could be ambiguous with [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]] though. Caprica-Eight is another possibility. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:I disagree. They both call themselves Sharon Valerii, they both have a right to that name. The current naming system is unambiguous. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:43, 26 February 2006 (EST)

Agreed. If one called herself Sharon and one called herself Eight, or Boomer, that would be a different story- but they are both referred to as "Sharon" and therefore, the naming system should remain. It doesn't matter that she's an Eight- she doesn't think of herself as such. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 10:31, 26 February 2006 (EST)

Interesting debate. I would suggest scripts outrank insignia. I doubt if costume want to go to the expense of making up a different diamond each time a new rank is mentioned. Low run badge production can be pretty expensive, so they probably use the nearest they have.

== Boomer Resurrects in the Resurrection Ship ==

Hey, Grace Park answered some questions in "TheScifiWorld.Net", and in one of them she said that Boomer resurrected "in a ship", aka the resurrecion ship. So I guess this basically confirms our suspicions that the room we see in "Downloaded" is in fact within the Resurrection Ship. Here is where she answered the Question [http://board.thescifiworld.net/viewtopic.php?t=806]--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:10, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

== Article name (again) ==

I think this article should either be moved to "Sharon 'Boomer' Valerii" or "Sharon Valerii ('Boomer')". Anyone who still has problems to tell them apart, will probably be even more confused by "(Galactica copy)", especially because the article for Caprica-Sharon has already be moved to "Sharon Agathon". Aside from that, it seems apparent that the writers are often using Grace Park's nomenclature on the show now − Galactica-Sharon was called "Boomer" by a Three model in the season premiere, while Caprica-Sharon is called "Sharon" exclusively − therefore I think it would be a good idea to use "Boomer" in the name of this article. It would be far less confusing than "(Galactica copy)", IMHO. -- [[User:Enemy|Enemy]] 18:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:I agree. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:13, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::I want to wait until we learn Sharon Agathon's callsign. If she uses "Boomer" too, then the move won't work. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:17, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Her callsign was actually revealed in the last issue of the BSG Magazine :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:38, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::::And it is...? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:39, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::She is mentioned, in the magazine, as "Sharon 'Athena' Agathon" --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:41, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::Awesome. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:29, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::::I still want to wait for an on-screen reference, or at least official confirmation from RDM or Brad Thompson. The Magazine has been wrong on prior occasions. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:34, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Yeah, I'm not saying we put it yet, it is after all, a spoiler of sorts for now. I'd trust it though, this issue had very good interviews (and this was in an interview). Though I don't know in which episode we'll find out. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:29, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:The article should probably be renamed [[Sharon Valerii]] as we don't include callsigns in the article's name. Obviously, we may have to go through the articles and fix links, but that shouldn't be a big to-do. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 07:07, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::I concur. Others of her sort should be Number Fives, but now there is really only "one" Sharon Valerii as there is now only "one" D'Anna Biers. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:14, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Eights, actually. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 07:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Eights, fives, whatever. They'll kill us all (but they're gonna frak us first, see?...frak us ''real slow''...) :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:46, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::I disagree, for reasons stated above. They were both "Sharon Valerii" for the first 33 episodes. Someone watching the first two seasons and searching for "Sharon Valerii" needs to be sent to a disambig page, not the page for a particular copy. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:18, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Then "Sharon Valerii" should be a disambig or redirect to [[Number Eight]]. The current Boomer page should be renamed similarly to "<nowiki>[[Number Eight (Boomer)]]</nowiki>", but anything other than the human alias. Else, we concise the Number Five article and merge the also-concised Galactica-copy article into Number Five. A differentiation must be done; the Sharons have both served and are alike from a wiki perspective same their name. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:10, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::The best name would be Sharon Valerii ("Boomer"). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:::How exactly was Sharon Agathon "Sharon Valerii" for the first 33 episodes? She merely took Boomer's identity in season one, but the surname ''Valerii'' was never associated with her. In fact, I don't believe (Caprica-)Sharon was every addressed as Sharon Valerii in the entire series, was she? -- [[User:Enemy|Enemy]] 14:42, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Helo called her Sharon up until her true nature was revealed. Though, he never used her surname. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:46, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::She called herself Sharon Valerii in "[[Home, Part II]]". "It's like: I'm Sharon Valerii and this is my family." Sesha Abinell called her Sharon Valerii in "[[Sacrifice]]". "We want Sharon Valerii" There may or may not be other instances that I'm forgetting. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:35, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::Thanks for mentioning these scenes, I didn't remember them. How Sesha Abinell called her can't really be relevant though, she never met her. And I just rewatched that scene in Home, Part II, in which she is trying to make a point about how weird it is having all these memories of Sharon Valerii. She is not using "Valerii" to describe herself, but the memories, she is talking about. So I still think the surname Valerii was never really associated with Sharon Agathon and therefore it would be unproblematic to name this article Sharon Valerii, with or without Boomer in it. -- [[User:Enemy|Enemy]] 19:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Honestly, let's not muddle the issue. [[Sharon Valerii]] should redirect to the article on Boomer, with a disambig note on the top linking to Sharon Agathon. Simple enough? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:43, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::That'll work for me. Would it also have a disamb note to the Number 8 article? --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:06, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::It already has a disambig note covering both. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:54, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
Should I make the change or does someone else want to? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 06:19, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:I'm very much for the change for course, but have we decided on a article name yet? ;) -- [[User:Enemy|Enemy]] 09:11, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::I think we're going with Joe Beaudoin's suggestion, which is Sharon Valerii. To sum up: the Galactica part is not longer accurate, the other Sharon never really used the name Valerii, and the article has a nice disambig heading at the top. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::Ok, I certainly support that, since callsigns are not included in the article's names, apparently. "Sharon Valerii" currently redirects to "Number Eight" which is not accurate anyway. -- [[User:Enemy|Enemy]]
::::I disagree here. "Sharon Valerii" is the alias for all Eights. The fact that Sharon Agathon is known as "Sharon" alone supports this, otherwise she'd have a different alias. Plenty of podcasts and other sources (outside of here, which is precluded as a reference) also states this. The other Sharon ''did'' use the full alias as well during the Caprica adventure, as she made Helo believe she was the "genuine" article from ''Galactica''. We do want to use the alias primarily for the "Boomer" Valerii, but to say that Caprica-Valerii hadn't assumed the identity for a time is plain wrong. Names may be relative in the episodes, but here we need to ensure we don't confuse matters. We cannot use first names in the article, so Caprica-Valerii must still remain in descriptions in the Agathon article throughout season 2 descriptions. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:15, 30 October 2006 (CST)
:::::"'Sharon Valerii' is the alias for all Eights." I think that is not correct, there is no evidence to suggest that. In fact, the conversation in Home, Part II, when Caprica-Sharon says "It's ''like'' I'm Sharon Valerii" suggests the opposite. Calling Caprica-Sharon Valerii is like addressing a secret agent by his undercover alias, even though the mission has ended a long time ago. -- [[User:Enemy|Enemy]] 06:25, 31 October 2006 (CST)

== Boomer real-life reference ==

This real life reference seems to be out of place, given that Boomer herself is not a ballistic missile submarine...

*In reality, "Boomer" is a nickname for a ballistic missile submarine. "[[Karl Agathon|Helo]]" is a similar nickname for a helicopter.

I didn't want to remove it since it contrasted with "Helo", but I'm unsure about this personally... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)