Editing Talk:Saul Tigh/Archive 1

==Age?==

The profile states that he is in his "50s" and the article says that he is 

:"A veteran in his mid-40s to early 50s"

In the commentary for ''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'', [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]] states that [[William Adama|Adama]] is younger than Tigh, and in addition to this, the fact that the [[Cylon War]] took place 40 years ago would obviously mean that he's <i>probably</i> not in his 50s, and <i>definitely</i> not in his mid-40s.  Unless someone can argue against it, I'm changing these portions of the article. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 22:26, 26 October 2005 (EDT)

:We're probalby going to get around to removing age information from most of the character articles soon. See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:31, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

::Even after completely discounting Adama's supposed age of 61 as a reference point, it's still reasonable to assume that both of them are in their 60s, due to reasons I already went into. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 23:49, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Well. Remember that the war lasted for about 12 years (the Articles of Colonization were signed 52 years ago, which Moore [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 says] is coincident with the outbreak of hostilities, the war explicitly ended 40 years ago). If we guess that the age to enlist in the colonial military is 18, and Adama enlisted at the start, that would make him at most 70. If Tigh enlisted in the war's last year, that would make him at least 58.

:::Beyond that, I'm not sure what we can say with much certainty. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 05:26, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: It might be asserted that joinin' age is lower in the Colonies. Is it not 16 in some European nations? I could be wrong. Of course, heck, the lifespans of Colonials could be vastly different from ours. They drive space ships routinely. They have FLT drives. Surely they have some medical technologies that we don't. Maybe they just live longer. This has no basis whatsoever on anything seen on screen, but it's possible, which means that any guesses we make of age based on the actors' appearences is fairly irrelevant. Of course... 70 would be about right for retiring, wouldn't it? But if Tigh is older, why hadn't he retired already? Or was Adama getting an early retirement? In which case, is 70 an ''early'' retirement? That might speak to Colonial life expectancy. Anyway... most of that is just rambling. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:23, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Colonial military age is up to debate as Day stated, but we don't have to guess about when Adama joined the military.  Moore also said in the same commentary I already referenced that he joined as a pilot in the last days of the war, which we <i>can</i> say with certainty was approximately 40 years ago.  Tigh was also specifically said to have been slightly older than, and had seen more combat than Adama.  Adding all of this together, we still come to the conclusion that both of them are most likely in their 60s.  10 years is a pretty safe margin of error. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 02:09, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::I'll have to double check that. It seems odd for Saul to refer to Bill as "the old man" if he's not at least a few years younger. Another interesting question - in our military, there's usually a provision for forced retirement if you get passed over for promotion for enough years. Does anyone know more about that? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:41, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

My main problem with age (per recent edits) is the lack of consistency between bios. We may be able to get Tigh's down to within a few years, but it's still awfully sloppy, and other pages aren't much better. My edits were based on this thread (now that Peter located it for me). But let consensus rule...calculating ages aren't my specialty. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:How long is a colonial year anyway? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:23, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:: Same as an Earth year. See [[Timeline (RDM)#Notes]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:31, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Rating==
According to a deleted scene on the season 2 dvds, Tigh was a petty officer, an assistant gunner's mate, and still a teenager when his ship got boarded. This took place very early in the war and Tigh was still a teenager (more like Cally in age than Tyrol). Also, in the last week of the war, Adama was serving on the Galactica when it was boarded and the Cylons used the same tactics as in Valley of Darkness. Adama told Tigh what happened over a drink and this is how Tigh knew what was happening. In the boarding he was in, he was assigned to guard the ship's magazines. I'll add stuff to the main page later, just wanted to get y'alls opinion on this. It's late.--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 00:53, 27 December 2005 (EST)

:Ricimer and I had an extended conversation about this on [[Talk:Cylon War]] which you may wish to refer to. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:22, 27 December 2005 (EST)
::Thanks, I had missed that. It was just something I noticed while watching my new dvds yesterday. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:38, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Picture? ==

I'm all for changing the pictures in the template to the promotional thing if the one we had was only so-so, but I really liked Tigh's picture, so... Why go and change them systematically? Anyone else find this somewhat rash? --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:27, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:I changed the character bio photo for consistency with many of the character bios elsewhere that started to use their promo pics. This was completely arbitrary, so if the collective says to use another picture, please do so. I think I was also trying to save it from the Island of Misfit Images, I think. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:01, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::One of them will be a misfit either way (unless we find a place for the other). But I appreciate people looking at and adopting images though... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:19, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think consistancy is well and good, but I think consistantly cool photos are better than consistantly "promo" photos. And if we decided to use promo stuff, we'd have to be inconsistant for the more minor characters. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:17, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::I concur. Consistantly cool is better than consistantly "promo". Although, in the name of consistancy I wonder if it might be a good idea to establish guidelines on the type of shots we're looking for (on the character project maybe?). Personally, I look for a good 8x10 head and shoulders shot that's at least two hundred pixels wide, that doesn't have any other characters significantly in the shot (to avoid confusion). While a promo standard could be established ("use the promo shot if you've got it"), I think the show is capable of producing shots that are more representative of "the character", and cooler. Also, a character shot that illustrates/represents something in the bio or description might have more value than "actor posing for a promo shot". The promo shots can look a look a lot more polished sometimes, but with the advent of the DVD release and some of the high-resolution captures that are taken today, I think they may be obsolete. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:53, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Images ==

I feel like we may be going a bit over-board on the number of pics on this page. I've a high-speed connection, but I don't want to alienate dial-up users and I don't want to angery any lawyers by skirting too close to "fair use". If I had to get rid of one, I'd say delete the (very dark) pic near the top with the "If the crew doesn't hate the XO..." quote. It's not a very quality shot.

Secondarily, I feel like the shot of Boomer and Tigh under "Tigh in Command" is huge. It also appears on the [[Scattered]] page, I think it should be replaced with the much-less-tall [[:image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg]]. Now, I may be a bit biased towards that one because I uploaded it, but I also think it displays wonderfully Tigh's overwhelmed feeling upon taking command. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

*I think someone needs to get a screencap in [[Scar]] when Tigh has a really stupid grin on his face while Lt. Thrace walks up to Kat near the end.  I might do it when I have a chance, but I don't feel like it right now.--[[User:Deadlygopher|Deadlygopher]] 02:25, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Occupation and Resistance ==

Since we will probably be adding this section to a lot of characters, is "Occupation and Resistance" OK? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:13, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
: I find this acceptable. What does everyone else have to say? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:21, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
::Sounds good to me. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:31, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Call Sign ==

I don't know if it is just being skipped over or because it has never been mentioned, but since he did have a run as a Viper Pilot there seems to be no call sign for it. Does anyone know if there is information available as to his call sign? I question this because he is the only person known as a viper pilot who does not have their call sign name. I would recommend that it be added in the sub-profile "Call Sign: Unknown." Even Admiral Adama has his displayed. Thoughts? --[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 15:55, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
: AJ, in response to your question, Tigh's call sign has never been mentioned. So we haven't added it. As for saying "Call Sign:Unknown" in the data box, we don't fill out forms in the databox with things such as unknown. If it is unknown, then the field is left blank and therefore undefined, so as to not clutter the infobox with "unknown"s for things we don't know about. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:08, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
::Perhpas we should add this to the [[BW:OC]] page? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:08, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Rank ==

Clearly he is a Colonel while serving aboard the Galactica. I wonder, however, if he should not have been promoted to General at the after the murder of Fisk (Pegasus Commander who took over after Adm Cain). I am a little fuzzy as to the exact ranking structure for the marines. However, if Tigh is Colonel over the marines on the Galactica and there is no Colonel on the Pegasus does it not make the most sense that he would be promoted to General in the same way that Adama was promoted to Admiral? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 00:09, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:The rank structure in Galactica is not the same as modern day militaries. "Colonel" is a rank in the fleet, roughly analogous to Captain in the US Navy. The rank structure in BSG has naval and army/airforce ranks mixed in. See [[Military Ranks (RDM)]] for further info. So, in short, no- Tigh should not have been promoted to "General", since that's not a rank in the BSG universe. "Colonel" is the rank generally held by a ship's Executive Officer. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:06, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:: This makes much more sense. My only remaining questions is why was Lee Adama only a major when Adm Adama placed him on the Pegasus? Should not his position be Col for the role he was playing? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:44, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Lee he wasn't XO in "The Captain's Hand". He was only sent there to look after Garner and the rest of the crew, but he was never referred to as XO. Garner even told him that he isn't really part of the crew, and there is a deleted scene where Tigh asks Adama if he is still thinking about making Lee XO. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:01, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Not necessarily. Even today, a vessel's master does not need to hold the rank of "Captain" (though he or she will still be called that). By the same token, an Executive Officer does not ''need'' to be a Colonel. Think of it this way- most XO's in today's navies hold the rank of Commander or equivalent, while the CO is a Captain. However, this is not set in stone. A CO may be a Lieutenant Commander, and their XO a Lieutenant. The reason I said that the XO was generally a Colonel is because we've seen two XO's on screen who both held the rank- that doesn't mean that every XO in the Fleet is a Colonel. Does that make sense? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:54, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:As above. Tigh isn't a Marine just because he has a modern Army/Marine rank. He's in Colonial Fleet like Adama, wears a CF uniform and the next rank for him would be Commander. For NCOs and enlisted the Marines use the same ranks as today. The excact structure of their officer ranks is unknown.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:25, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Ol' One-Eye ==

I'm wondering if we should make mention of the fact that Tigh's been maimed by the Cylons during his time in captivity so that he only has one eye now.  This is, of course, assuming that it's true and that it's not "just something" he told Tyrol and Anders to get them going.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 02:00, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

:Speaking of Tigh's eye, should there be a reference to the Germanic/Norse god Wotan/Woden? I really know very little about mythology, but I read that this god sacrificed his eye so that he could gain wisdom. Fitting? Ironic? Irrelevant? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:14, 2 December 2006 (CST)

::Tigh lost an eye but he did  NOT gain wisdom. If anything, he increased his hatred. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 10:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

== New image ==

Should [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kp3hg/g248 this] be made the new image, now that Tigh is ol' one-eye? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 17:07, 30 October 2006 (CST)
:I think, given how we can find HD caps for most of the season now, that we should perhaps try and find an image of Tigh in which he looks a bit more composed and with his formal eye-patch and all. If at least so that he looks more respectable and a little less like a one-eyed drunk. Promos for next season will probably have him updated with all the new features he got this last season, but until then I would propose we search for a good and composed Eye-Patched Tigh. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:06, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
::I agree. One possibility is when he returns to duty in "[[The Passage]]". He looks really respectable and formal there. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:16, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
:::I found one that I really liked, and placed it there, if at least to replace the other one in the meantime, but I'll keep an eye (no pun) out for more, especially if I find HD caps for the finale, since that had it's fair share of Tigh-Moments. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:36, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

== Position ==

I think someone is jumping the gun a little here. Helo is still the First officer of Galactica, as far as I know, yet the table claims Tigh is the current first officer. Is he and if so when was he reinstated--[[User:Ireboi|Ireboi]] 07:35, 5 December 2006 (CST)

== Outdated ==

This article is severely outdated; it seems it hasn't been updated since "[[The Passage]]", save for one small addition today from "[[Maelstrom]]". Someone should add stuff from "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]" through "[[Crossroads, Part I]]". (Before you start asking why I'm not volunteering, it's 22:30 over here and I noticed the incompleteness of this article on my evening pass.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 16:27, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
: I imagine that the article would be updated after the end of the season, after which we'll have to go through and concise all the major character articles anyway. (see [[BW:TANK|The think tank for more.]]) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 17:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::True. My point was more that this article has more backlog than most of the bios, which are updated after every episode. Of course this is a season break job, but I wanted to point out that this article has serious backlog, more so than most of the other articles. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:24, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Info from miniseries deleted scene ==

Should we include this material so prominently in the main article?
:''He is supposedly a third-generation Colonial soldier. His alledged father was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and his grandfather served under President Mueller. According to Billy Keikeya, Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent (Miniseries, deleted scene).''
Since Tigh is a Cylon, the father/grandfather information is false (or at least not what it appears to be). Also, Tigh's interest in military history seems to have been retconned out of the show post-miniseries, just as Adama's father was retconned to being a civil liberties lawyer despite a miniseries deleted scene that implied he was a military man.

Could we move this paragraph to the "notes" section instead? -[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 09:48, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, that is perfect for the Notes section. We also generally treat deleted scenes as relevant until contradicted. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:39, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
::I suggest we therefore delete '''Saul Tigh (father of)''' and '''Saul Tigh (grandfather of)'''. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 12:54, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, only one page links to the grandfather article and as such the redirects don't make much sense. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:57, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

== Colony ==

The ''Official Magazine'' (pretty low of the [[BW:CJ]] rating) lists Tigh as from Aerelon, but in [[The Woman King]] Cally talks about how virtually no officers come from the poorer colonies. Tyrol then cites Dualla as an example of an officer from one of the poorer colonies. If the XO was from Aerelon that would probably have been mentioned first. Given also Tigh's lack of the distictive Aerelon accent, I would recon that this placement isn't really valid anymore.

(of course, he's a Cylon anyway) [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:25, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
: Something for the notes section, I think... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 21:24, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
:It's from "[[Dirty Hands]]" actually. I added a note, but we shouldn't assume that everyone has the same kind of Aerelon accent. There might still be local differences. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:32, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
::Sorry to dig up an old thread, but also considering his Caprican nationalism shown in [[The Woman King]] it seems rather implausible that he's from Aerelon. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 12:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

== Tigh a cylon?  Really? ==

Unlike the other three members of the "Final Five."  I find it not just unlikely, but frankly implausible that Saul Tigh is a cylon.

First of all, Tigh fought in the first Cylon War.  This means he was around long before the experiments that eventually evolved into the humanoid cylons were even begun.  We know this from the flashbacks in Razor where the young William Adama stumbles across a cylon research lab where human test subjects are being held captive.  These scenes reveal that the experiments that ultimately led to the creation of humanoid cylons were only in their infancy at that time.  In addition it would be impossible for his background story to be completely fabricated because it would be impossible to explain how so many people knew him during the first Cylon War if he hadn't existed at the time.  Based on this alone, Tigh can't be a cylon unless you think that he was somehow kidnapped and replaced.  This same argument would preclude William Adama's being a cylon as well.

The second reason, and the one that removes any doubt, was revealed in the last few episodes of the first half of season 4 when it was revealed that Tigh got the Number Six in Galactica's brig pregnant.  It has long been established within the storyline that humanoid cylons can't procreate with other humanoid cylons, so Tigh couldn't have gotten her pregnant unless he was human.  This is also why we can be certain that Cally Henderson and Karl Agathon aren't cylons, something I've yet to hear anybody dispute.

The fact that Tigh experienced the same unique sensations as the other three members of the "Final Five" could easily be explained as a result of psychological torture and manipulation endured at the hands of the cylons during his lengthy imprisonment in solitary confinement on New Caprica.  It should also be pointed out, that Tigh was the only one of the four to endure imprisonment on New Caprica.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that the writing staff could have overlooked these facts so I am inclined to believe that Tigh being a cylon is a ruse designed to conceal the existence of a second as-of-yet unknown model.

My personal choices for these two are the obvious ones.  Starbuck is almost certainly a cylon, it's the only way to explain her visions, the hybrid prophecy, her miraculous reappearance after the Ionian Nebula and her penchant for drawing the Eye of Jupiter when she was a kid (especially given that she didn't know what it was but was just kind of drawn to it).  In addition, her poor relationship with her mother, and lack of any mention of a father makes her background story so vague and tenuous as to be the perfect cover for a cylon.  Finally it would be the kind of total irony RDM seems to love that Kara Thrace is actually the very thing she loathes so much that she would shoot her own husband for being a cylon without provocation (something she told him in no uncertain terms before she found out he actually was a cylon).  Granted given the obviousness, the writing staff could easily go the other way an use her as a ruse.

My second choice is Baltar, but the choice of him is just as much based on a lack of any other real candidates as it is on his own failings.  While it's true that Baltar's multiple unintentional betrayals of the colonies could easily be explained by his weakness of character, vulnerability to social manipulation, and his emotional and psychological frailty; it's also just as likely that they are the result of hidden cylon programming.  On a similar tack, while it's definitely possible that his constant hallucinations regarding Caprica Six are the result of multiple nervous breakdowns, it's just as likely that they too are the result of hidden cylon programming.

While I think these are the two best candidates.  The case against Starbuck is definately the most compelling, so if Tigh is actually a cylon, (which, again, I don't think is possible), my bet would have to be Starbuck.  That said, given RDMs penchant for leading things in one direction only to about face at the last minute and the many other inconsistencies in the storyline, the likelihood that Starbuck will be named a cylon in the end is certainly up in the air.
[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 14:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

: The audience's present information on the Cylons—and understanding of their full background—is incomplete. You'll learn the answers to how Tigh can be a Cylon in the Final Episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::In the latest episode (airing right now), Saul and No.6 discuss the fact that their baby will be the 'future of the Cylon race' and how it is evidence that they can procreate.[[User:Carmacao|Carmacao]] 03:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Grandmaster, all the discrepancies you note can probably be explained as false memories. 
:::The irony you note in Starbuck being a Cylon is just as present in Toaster-hating Tigh's case.
:::And given Tigh's consistenly inhuman behaviour, it actually makes sense that he is not human. 
:::[[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

==BCE==

Please, take note of [[Talk:Timeline_(RDM)#BCE_occurences|this issue]]. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

==Admiral==

In the episode "Escape Velocity" in season 4 at roughly time index 5:30, a scene between Tigh, Tory, and Tyrol ensues about Tyrol's actions at the funeral for Cally. During the shots of Tigh, you can clearly see him wearing Admiral's stars and the rank of Colonel. Anyone have an explanation of this? {{unsigned|DrBuckingham}}

: This is a production frakup. As I recall, the scene in question was shot as a pickup (after most of the episode had already been shot) and the on-set prop guy grabbed the pins from Adama's personal box instead of from Tigh's personal box. That's the reason, so no need to read into this any more than it already has. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:37, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


You really have got to hate on-set prop people. They should know the difference. You would think those dudes would watch the show they produce......Aaarrgh! Anyway, yea, I agree, it doesn't need to be listed. Though it was neat to see an Admiral Tigh. {{unsigned|DrBuckingham}}

: Stuff like this does tend to happen all the time, so it's the nature of the beast. Having worked in the industry, it's very hectic and shoots that are assembled last minute tend to have some problems. (Some of those make it on screen.) Anyway, the error is noted in the [[Continuity errors (RDM)|continuity errors]] article. (Now, as for Admiral Tigh, all he needs is a Cylon parrot and we'll be good.)-- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)