Editing Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

== 7th squadron ==

Did anyone else see the 7th squadron logo behind Helo?
[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 16:12, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:Sure did. I'm sure someone may get a screencap of it soon and note it on [[Squadrons of Galactica]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:19, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

About the current photo: who are the actors posing as the Final Five? --[[User:Meian|Meian]] 20:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons.  They
are modeled after and  therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being  something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed.  With Sharon it's almost as if the  humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon.  Boomer is not the woman that 
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the 
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god.  Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol. 
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god.  Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel.  Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an 
Abrahamic god.  He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in 
heaven.  What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians.  Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?.  Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings.  Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to.  It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.  

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible.  Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon 
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses. 
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

: The was a good read.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Not sure if it was Fisher, but I think he's one of the marines for sure --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:05, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm pretty sure Dee says "Sarge?" after he gets shot. I could be wrong though. -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::Nooo! That's a shame, because the guy that plays Fischer is friends with Tahmoh. I wouldn't want to be the guy breaking it to him that his character was getting killed off (and in such an inconsequential way, to boot). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:45, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:::I edited the line but left the implication that they were going to box her for the talk page. If I remember, I think it has already been implied on earlier episode summaries that the Threes may be boxed - it goes without saying on this page. {{unsigned|Saiboogu}}

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: It looked like there were other Cavils doing the same thing to all the other Threes in the wide shot that ended the episode.  It is rather interesting that Cavil's normally not among the models who participates in a post-resurrection midwifing, yet he's the only one there when a boxing takes place, no? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:04, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:To me it looked like a lot of Cavil-activity too. If (as many people here believe) Cavil is Number Two, then his actions in this episode make perfect sense. He's the one who confronts D'Anna in the temple and almost kills her, he's the one who proposes boxing the Threes in the first place, and he's the one who ends up actually doing it. If Cavil is either Two or Four, he'd be the representative of the remaining Cylons and it would make sense for him to go on a boxing spree. Also, if Cavil is Two, he wouldn't want his 'leadership' status (as far as he has any; he didn't protest against the majority decision to attack the Colonies) threatened by the revelation of Number One (who I believe to be among the Final Five). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:39, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I gotta get me a bigger tv.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: Fleet-D'Anna from Final Cut interacted with Roslin, Adama, Tigh, and Lee.  As for Downloaded/Final Five-D'Anna, it's just been Baltar, Doc Cottle and Anders, who she was a righteous bitch to and nearly killed by the way. --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:: I thought Fleet-D'Anna was Final Five-D'anna --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I think it's pretty obvious that the D'anna who found Hera and searched for the Five is the D'anna we know from Final Cut. Caprica-Three has a rather nastier temperament, both in Downloaded and in Occuprice. It's possible the Three who defies the basestar command in Rapture is Caprica-Three as well. I believe only one Number Three is referred to as D'anna and that's Final Cut D'anna. Note that even the other Cylons refer to her by that name. Normally, Cylons only seem to bestow individual names on a Cylon who has accomplished something significant. (For example, while D'anna mentioned speaking to a Simon, this was so Baltar would know who she's talking about.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::: Yeah, that was the clincher for me, when the other Cylons called her D'Anna. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:19, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::: The D'Anna that's been focused on recently is the one who was in Downloaded, see her flashbacks in [[Hero]] and the response from Bradley Thompson ([[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]]). She's probably called D'Anna because Baltar calls her that. The reporter D'Anna from Final Cut was in the fleet at the time of Downloaded, so they're not one and the same. Messiah-D'Anna may be the one shown at the end of Final Cut. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::::I transcribed the conversation, I'm not sure about "it's a trick before I die", the line was barely audible.
:::::::D'anna: "The final five, is it really you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You."
:::::::D'anna: "Forgive me I ... I had no idea."
:::::::''transitions from D'anna holding mystery figure's hand in the vision to D'anna holding Balthar's hand in the temple''
:::::::Baltar: "No idea about what? What did you see? Who was it?"
:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Blatar: "What was? Tell me am I one of you."
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Baltar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me I have have to know. Tell me I have to know did you see my face? Am I a cylon?"
:::::::Baltar: "God ... it's a trick before I die."
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home mister president."
::::::It was pretty heavily implied that it was Baltar, although the "forgive me, I have no idea" line would also be consistant with [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]]. She could also be apologising for any as of yet unmentioned offscreen actions against any known or as of yet unintroduced character on Cylon occupied [[New Caprica]] or any of the Cylon-occupied Colonies. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:16, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::: Actually what Baltar said at the end was:

:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Baltar: "What was? Tell me! Am I one of you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Baltar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me, stay wi... I have have to know! Tell me! I have to know! Did you see my face!?! Am I a Cylon!?! Frak!"
:::::::''Baltar steps over D'anna's body and onto the mandala:''
:::::::Baltar: "God please tell me the truth before I die."
:::::::''Someone sneaks up to Baltar and puts a gun to the back of his head''
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home Mister President."
:::::::
:::::::At least that was what he said in close captioning. I did hear something like "its a trick" at the same time. Easter egg? And his name is "Baltar" not "Balthar". [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 17:07, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::::::::"Tell me the truth" makes more sense. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:04, 25 January 2007 (CST)

::Fleet-Three from "Final Cut" can't possibly be Messiah-Three - during Three's first recreational suicide in "[[Hero]]", she flashes back to a scene from "Final Cut" set on Caprica. This means she's the same Three as the one watching the documentary in that episode, and not the one who was on ''Galactica'' at that time. She also flashes back to her death at the hands of Caprica-Six in "[[Downloaded]]", so we know that they are also the same character. Since it doesn't make sense for Messiah-Three to apologize for any actions taken by Fleet-Three, I think we can safely rule her out. That leaves the humans interacted with by Messiah-Three to be considered. There are only seven candidates:
::*Sam Anders - Tried to kill him on Caprica ([[Downloaded]])
::*Tucker "Duck" - Blew her up at the NCP graduation ceremony ([[Occupation]])
::*Dodona Selloi - Consulted her regarding Hera's fate ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Cottle - Discussed Hera's cremation ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Felix Gaeta - Was present when she, Caprica-Six and Baltar evacuated Colonial One, but did not interact with him ([[Exodus, Part II]])
::*Denny "Bulldog" Novacek ([[Hero]]) - Interrogated by an anonymous "sick" Three on a Basestar. 
::*Gaius Baltar
::In evaluating these, we should establish whether Messiah-Three has done anything to them worth apologizing for, and consider whether story logistics allow them to be a Cylon. Three has no reason to apologize to Duck, Selloi, Cottle or Gaeta, narrowing the field to just Baltar, Bulldog, and Anders.
::From a storytelling standpoint, Baltar can't possibly be a Cylon. They've teased it so much that there's no dramatic payoff if they reveal it now - it would be a total anticlimax. It also ruins his character's dramatic function, since Baltar's role is to be the guilt-ridden traitor. His character can't function as a Cylon. If James Callis ever intends to leave the show, revealing him as one of the final five would be a good way to write him out, but in the near-term, it's just not a possibility.
::Bulldog would be a completely uninteresting choice (since we know nothing about him and have no emotional investment in his character). Additionally, the actor will probably be difficult to book in the future, and the character has mitigating factors (a long military career with verified non-Cylons Bill Adama and Saul Tigh).
::This leaves Anders as the only possibility. Messiah-Three certainly has grounds to apologize to him, and he has no real mitigating factors - no history prior to his time with the Caprica Buccaneers, and (notably) no children with his wife, Kara Thrace. It also explains his remarkable ability to withstand and quickly recover from walking pneumonia ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::Love the analysis. Who you narrow it down to makes sense. Anders is just a goofy guy, though. I personally find the Bulldog theory more interesting because of his connection to Adama and Tigh. If we see the character pop up in upcoming credits that might be a sign that they're filling out his backstory. Until then, though, maybe Anders will take on more shades, or the writers will have a dramatic twist that'll make Baltar a more convincing choice.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:53, 25 January 2007 (CST)
I think you're making a leap on the apology thing. The apology may not be for something that Three did to the Final Five model in question, but that she was sorry she didn't know that that person was a cylon and/or a member of the final five. Make sense? --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:13, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:It's possible, but it would be bad writing if that were the case. I'm making the (perhaps misguided) assumption that the writers respect our intelligence, and wouldn't give us a clue we can't use. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 10:23, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I respectfully disagree that it's bad writing. Haven't you ever been in a situation that required you to say "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was you."  I may be wrong and I don't think the speculation as to what she meant is that plain. I think it could go either way.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:36, 25 January 2007 (CST)
Is is possible that the person she was apologizing to was the hybrid? [[User:Aspshortjock|Aspshortjock]] 16:29, 25 January 2007 (CST)[[User:aspshortjock|aspshortjock]]
:I don't think so. If, as I believe RDM describes her in the Torn podcast, the Hybrid is an intermediate step between mechanical and humanoid models then she is not a humanoid model. Also, she doesn't have legs and couldn't be standing on the dais. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:41, 25 January 2007 (CST)
There are many she could apologize too.  First of all, Cylons who wish to seem to sync up memories (Sharon A remembers the life of Boomer) and remember those actions as their own past.  But most of all, the Three line participated in the war and nuking of the colonies.  There is no human she doesn't owe a huge apology to, unfortunately.  She also oversaw New Caprica and thus owes a double one to all those who were subject to the occupation.   She owes special apologies to Baltar and a few others, but alas this doesn't tell us much.   Only that she had no idea the final 5 were playing whatever role in humanity that the person she sees has played.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 23:35, 24 February 2007 (CST)
:Naturally, you are correct, but that would be the weaker way for the writers to work their way out of the situation. I choose to assume that they dropped that hint with a specific intent. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:25, 25 February 2007 (CST).
::My impression of what was conveyed in that scene was that it was meant to be revealing, but wasn't necessarily an apology for harm done.  To apologize for harming one of the Final Five would be doubly unnecessary: he or she is a Cylon and thus generally impervious to any lasting harm, and more importantly is presumably carrying out some kind of plan, in which Three would have been merely playing her part.
::Rather, I think the identity of that particular Cylon revealed to Three something fundamental about the nature of the Final Five and the role they are playing, something very different than she ever imagined.  The apology was for having the audacity to uncover their identities and approach them, thus potentially interfering with their plan, though, as she tells Cavil, she would still do it all again.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 01:14, 26 February 2007 (CST)

===Followup===
Mmph! Mmmmph! --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:42, 10 March 2007 (CST)
:...? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:43, 10 March 2007 (CST)
::Oh, man. Nailed it! --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 02:03, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== Boxing the Threes ==

There is discussion around here about just how they boxed the entire Three line, so here's my idea:
*Send all your Cavils to the Resurrection Ship's Three Deck.
*Reprogram the Centurions to forget the Threes are Cylons.
*Have the Centurions fire upon all Threes they can find in the fleet. (Resurrection Ship's gonna work overtime on that)
*Have your Cavils box the downloaded Threes.
Any alternative ideas, anyone? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my one main idea, based on looking at what happened once D'Anna saw the final five.

*One of the consequences of her seeing the final five was that the experience would overload her Cylon brain.  Take note that her eyes glazed over and her nose started to bleed, inferring that there was some sort of hemmorage occuring, probably from the brain area.  Since it has been shown many times throughout the series that the Cylon models amongst themselves can communicate with each other on a near telepathic level, whether it is for voting on leadership decisions or sharing memories.  I believe it is entirely possible that once D'anna saw the final five, the shared memory of that forbidden knowledge was transmitted to all the other Threes, thus resulting in their own deaths as well.

When Cavil talked with D'Anna and told her to look at all the "damage" she had caused, he seems to be talking about all the other resurrection chambers around her.  This implied to me that the damage that occurred was that every Three died at the same time & thus time and energy had to be spent to resurrect them all.  I take this to be the final breaking point for the rest of the Cylon leadership as resurrecting an entire line of cylons would have taxed the resources they currently had, plus now that all the Threes have this shared knowledge of the final five, it is too dangerous to keep them around, thus the final boxing.

That's my 2 cents.  I understand how the other explanations can work and may very well be one of those.  However, considering how often RDM and crew bring in some religious and spiritual twists every so often into their stories, what happened to D'Anna could be akin to how some religious teachings bring up the idea that once a normal human being looks upon the face of a god, their penalty is immediate death.  Even in the RDM podcast, he referred to the cause of the boxing to the occurence that they finally took a bite of the forbidden knowledge, a reference to the Fall of Man account in the Judeo-Christian teachings.

Either case, I don't think the Cylons did much to "box" all the Threes.  The Threes died because of D'anna's encounter with the final five and thus made it much easier to box all of them as they're resurrected.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible that The Threes simply accepted their faith? After all they were able to get a ship on the planet they had no further reason to disagree with the other cylons.

Also we see some people walking in the "boxing chamber" when Brother Cavil leaves. Who are they?--[[User:R4p70r|R4p70r]] 14:14, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:The premise on the Three's multiple resurrections is based on a false assumption: The Cylons have a collective knowledgebase where information can be voluntarily shared to anyone of any model. However, unless [[Sharon Agathon]] was lying (which is unlikely, otherwise the Cylons know all of the Colonial tactical data they care to know through her now), this is not compulsory, so anything that D'Anna-Three learned may not necessarily have been sent to all other Threes. This goes against the point that she was dying, which requires the downloading circuitry, and the fact that the Cylons are NOT the "Borg" of Star Trek; they are not a "hive mind" that are continually connected (although models can relate data within each other, such as in the basestar command consensus). I'm all for the Centurion-shoot-up theory myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:33, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::My theory doesn't go against what has been established amongst the series.  As we have seen multiple times, Adama's speech during the mini-series was obviously transfer amongst the different Cylon models, such Leoben and even Athena.  Though it is also a voluntary information sharing system as that would allow Athena to not betray the Colonial fleet with all her tactical data in her memories.  However, that doesn't mean that D'anna-Three did not voluntary open her knowledge to the other Three models.  In the end it's never explained how the Threes found themselves in those chambers.  They're all boxed and unless something drastic happens, that is the probably the last we'll ever see of them.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:33, 26 February 2007 (CST)
::The other figures are Cavil copies boxing the other Threes, it's mentioned in the podcast. [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:12, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Removed analysis ==

* Battlestar Wiki contributors confirmed the similarity between the symbolic Eye-of-Jupiter image in the Temple of Five and the painting seen in Kara Thrace's old apartment ([[Valley of Darkness]]) prior to this episode (see [[Talk:The Eye of Jupiter#WTF_moment|this talk page]]).	 
** According to the [[Podcast:Rapture|RDM podcast]], the image in Kara's apartment was a mandala that the actress had decided to paint before the actual shooting occurred.

These lines were removed by [[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] ([[User_talk:April Arcus|Talk]]), saying: "''Remove self aggrandizement. Nobody cares who conjectured what.''".

I personally think both would be better off as separate bullet points in ''[[Rapture#Notes|Notes]]'' rather than ''[[Rapture#Analysis|Analysis]]'', but I do care. The second point is factual information that simply belongs here (I readded it). The first, well... I think deciding whether it's allowed to take pride in our own analysis is up to the admins (could you respond here, please?). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:39, 25 January 2007 (CST)

:We had this same debate regarding the name of the [[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]], which Merv arrived at before RDM's podcast revealed that the battle actually was inspired by the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. The Merovingian wanted credit for it, but I argued at that time that the assignation of credit was irrelevant - I understand that you want to take pride in our community, but doing so is inappropriate inasmuch as it violates our NPOV policy (we certainly don't assign credit like that to non-wiki members), and isn't going to be a topic of interest to a viewer perusing the episode guide even a week from now. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 09:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:ditto. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm to blame for the entry; it's not at all crucial, and if it violates NPOV, it should be removed. The Talk page of the article has the off-air kudos to the contributors, in any case. Finding this type of stuff is part of the fun of using the wiki, so at least the talk page gives the "fun"  and the credit to the contributors, and the article can stay neutral. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:I agree that the self-reference to BSWiki is irrelevant, but the information from the podcast could indeed be added under Notes --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::[[Rapture#Notes|It's already there]] --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:43, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== "Mandala" ==

I've got a bit of an issue with the continued use of the term "mandala when referring to the carving in the temple and to Starbuck's painting. Definitionally, a "mandala" is "a geometric figure representing the universe in Hindu and Buddhist symbolism." While the design bears some resemblence to a galaxy/universe, there is no proof that that is what it is. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:They did call it that in the episode, didn't they?
::'''Adama:''' I think the Chief is right. I think the supernova does look like the mandala inside the temple.
:--[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's correct, they do call it a mandala. Maybe you (BklynBruzer) can add a [[Rapture#Notes|note]] on how the ep's usage of the word "mandala" is incorrect. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:30, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::::Please read in detail the definition of [[w:mandala|mandala on Wikipedia]]. It is possible that the Thirteenth Tribe created the symbol for meditative use (it ''is'' in a Temple, after all). Mandalas don't have to be used or designed in a specific way except in a circular format, and it appears that the symbol adheres to the modern practice. Mandalas don't have to look like anything except for what it depicts or inspires, and it may relate to an ''element'' or ''concept'' of the universe, not a specific celestial object (although this one does). The fact that the symbol is all over the place gives it significance, but I feel we should stick to its modern application. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::Ah, if the episode itself called it a mandala, then consider my complaint dropped. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:34, 25 January 2007 (CST)

:RDM's podcast also refers to it as a mandala.  Maybe when the actress had originally created it, they thought of it as a mandala and not a supernova symbol.  Either case, I say that the word be used in the main article because at the very least, Adama uses that word in the show. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== pre-programmed viewing mechanism? ==

I have a problem with this statement in the analysis section.
:"Because D'Anna recognized one of the figures in white which must have been programmed into the viewing mechanism 4000 years previously, it can be concluded that there is some substantial connection between whomever the Temple of Five was dedicated to and the Cylons."
It's not necessarily a pre-programmed viewing mechanism. We don't even know whether the device was malfunctioning or working as designed. All we know is that when Three stepped onto the mandala, had a vision of the Final Five and then died of what appears to be a brain hemmorhage. I'll edit the comment in question. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:02, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I agree. It does assume that the modality of transmission-if that is the proper term for it-is a mechanism of some sort. In the make believe world of ''Battlestar Galactica'' such phenomena as visions and precognition could exist however we may feel about them in the real world. Just like in say the TV show ''Smallville'' (which is about a young Clark Kent in his pre Superman days) magic and ghost are real. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:45, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::Maybe it's not the temple that's preprogrammed, but the Cylons themselves? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 07:51, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::There may never be enough information, with the Threes all gone, to discern how the mechanism worked. We've seen stuff like this work before in the form of the [[Tomb of Athena]], another gift from the ancient tribes. There's not enough information to discern where the Threes kept getting ''their'' non-Temple visions. Three may have had a hemorrhage because the system was compatible with, but not designed for non-humans. We don't really know if the people who Three saw were actually the five missing Cylons themselves. Just because the character says something doesn't make it true; its their perception. Much of the comments from the virtual Number Six are testaments to how the show's writers love to twist us, so I recommend careful treading on further speculation, lest ye [[BW:FANW|wank your fans.]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:02, 26 January 2007 (CST)
::::I agree; we are lacking too much information. We don't even know for sure when the Temple of Five or the Tomb of Athena were created/programmed. Everyone is assuming they were set up 4000 years ago, but it's possible the "visions" were programmed by the Final 5 fairly recently. The structures may have been created a long time ago, but the Final 5 (or someone else) may have added the high-tech recently. Maybe they already went in search of Earth and were leaving clues for others to follow - they could have also deliberately designed them to fit with the prophecies. I'm reaching, but it helps make the point that we have no idea when the visions in the Temple and Tomb were created. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 17:45, 14 February 2007 (CST)

== holy .... ==

my mistake, sorry[[User:Redlinetheturk|Redlinetheturk]] 08:26, 28 January 2007 (CST)
:No problem. The wiki has retained the history so you only need to copy and paste instead of re-translating again :) --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 12:11, 28 January 2007 (CST)

== Title ==

rap·ture     /ˈræptʃər/ [rap-cher] noun, verb -tured, -tur·ing.<br>
–noun<br>
1.	ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy.<br>
2.	Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight.<br>
3.	the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.<br>
4.	the Rapture, Theology. the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth. <br>
5.	Archaic. the act of carrying off. <br>
–verb (used with object) <br>
6.	to enrapture. <br>

The title doesn't relate to the episode's content very much, except that maybe #3 above may apply to [[Number Three|D'Anna]]'s experience in the temple. One of the most vague titles so far, anyway. Or can anyone come up with a better explanation than the above? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:39, 28 January 2007 (CST)
:I think it clearly refers to D'anna's religious experience in the temple. And while that's only a relatively small part in the entire episode, it does have far-reaching consequences for her and the Cylons --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)
::I think that definitions #1, #2, #3, and #5 all apply to this episode actually.  #1 because there was definitely an ecstatic joy on D'anna's face after she saw the final five.  #2 closely follows the theme of #1.  #5 in relation to the humans tuck on the planet as they had to be immediately carried off before the planet exploded.  #3 because D'anna was carried to the opera house once she stepped into the "well of souls."  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 14:38, 30 January 2007 (CST)

== "Who programmed us" ==

This article, [[Cylon Models]] and [[Humanoid Cylon]] all have Three's line at the end of ''Rapture'' as "The one who programmed us," but I'm fairly certain the line is "It's not a flaw to question our purpose, is it? ''To wonder who programmed us'', the way we think, and why?"--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 02:57, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:You're right, I just re-watched the scene. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:29, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::Something tells me that she means humans and Cylon in general, more than literally who programmed them and why. But yeah, that's the correct line. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:59, 3 February 2007 (CST)

== Cavil, the keeper of secrets? ==

Should information from RDM's podcast about Cavil be included?  RDM said how delighted he was with the idea that the athetist Cavil model is the actual model that knows about the final 5, a guardian if you will.  That explains why Cavil was able to deduce why D'Anna was concerned with the Temple and why he felt it was his responsibility to prevent D'Anna from doing so.  It also explains why again it is Cavil, and not the other models, that is confronting the 3 models before they're boxed, he(or they) are the ones who truly know and guard the secret of who the final 5 are.

Either case, I just think it would be helpful to include that info in as rumors are flying all about who the final 5 are going to be.  That's my two cents.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 22:21, 13 February 2007 (CST)

:The exact quote is "I love Cavil as the keeper of secrets and Cavil is the guy who won't let D'Anna go see the final five. I always thought that was very cool, because it was a nice twist on the character, who he really was, that the atheist Cylon actually knew something about the religion of the Cylons.". IIRC it's common knowledge among the Cylons and the fleet's leadership that there's twelve Cylon models. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:46, 14 February 2007 (CST)

::For exact quotes, you might want to search through the [[Podcast:Rapture|podcast transcript]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:04, 15 February 2007 (CST)

== To Baltar: "You were right"  ==

One of the more curious lines in this episode is D'Anna's last words to Baltar.  "You were right."

So about what?  Other than the obvious suggestion that  he's one of the final five.

What other things have people noted that Baltar said to the Cylons that they, or she, disagreed with? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:50, 23 February 2007 (CST)

== Baltar as the Cylon God ==

It has occurred to me that Baltar may be the Cylon "god", although he may not realize it.  In the mini series Baltar is giving an interview where he denounces the ban on research and development into artificial intelligence.  The original cylon centurions were created by man, but did man give them the ability to evolve on their own?  Perhaps Baltar played a part in the evolution of the Cylon race, though his work may have been completed by someone else thus explaining how he could be fooled into letting number 6 into the defense mainframes.

:I don't think his age has ever been officially stated, but he looks far too young, and probably is. It's still theoretically possible that one of his parents played a major role in developing the Cylons, then moved to Aerelon under an assumed identity and married a farmer, or that Baltar's one of the Final Five, or that he's one of the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons, or that one of his parents is a Cylon (or last cycle's equivalent), or that he's the son or mortal incarnation of the One Whose Name Cannot be Spoken, or that the Cylon god is the last cycle's version of Baltar, or that he's a perfectly normal human who happens to have an important destiny. There's definitely some strange connection between Baltar and the Cylons. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:41, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Answer to five priests question? ==

Ok, Serenity, you've got me.  You added a link that Crossroads part II has the answer to the question about whether the final five are the five priests.  I mean yes, the revelation that somebody as old as Tigh is in the F5 does provide some strong evidence that it's true, but I would hardly say it's confirmed yet, so what clear answer do you see?  Or are you suggesting it's answered in the negative?  Either way I can't say there's an answer to that question in that episode.  --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:40, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:I actually thought about saying "Possible answer" and that's probably the best. Anyways, the idea that the priests several thousand years ago are somehow the Final Five is pretty absurd in the first place. For me that the Final Five are contemporary persons is strong evidence that they are not the ancient priests. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:37, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::Remember the central premise of the Colonial faith: "All this has happened before, and all of this will happen again." The temple ''was'' built 4,000 years before the Cylons were supposed to exist. How could this temple be related to the Cylons? Are the priests and the Cylons the same? These are the valid questions, and obviously there is a connection. Recycled technology, recycled souls, something reused. And don't leave out Kara Thrace and her symbol (she never entered the Temple, yet she [[The Destiny|has a connection]]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::I would venture that "Answer" or even "possible answer" means answer, not clue.  I don't want to debate it here, but I think our disagreement makes it clear this question is not answered.  And it is one of the central questions.   Absurd?  Surely you've noticed the Final Five make all their vision appearances in the Kobol-era opera house as well?  --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:50, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I think "possible answer" is alright, depending on how one sees it. People have different interpretations, and for some it might be an answer and for some not. That's the meaning of "possible". For me, the heavy emphasis on that whole Final Five business is not a good thing in the show. But while they might somehow be related to the priests, maybe modeled in their image or something, I think it's out of the question that the priests literally ''are'' the Final Five, cycle of time or not. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:56, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::::I agree, maybe the Final Five are this cycle's version of the five priests (both groups were outcasts because they worship different deities) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:18, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::::It can't be a "possible answer" because as should now be clear, some people think Crossroads is *stronger evidence* that the 5 priests may be the very same final 5, and some people such as yourself think it refutes that idea.   You can't declare an answer of any time when it's not clear what the possible answer even is.  I don't want to debate it here, just to point out that the question is not answered, either way.  A link to an "answer", even a possible one, requires that it be clear what answer is being referred to.    To avoid debate here I created a [[http://ideas.4brad.com/five-priests-and-final-five blog thread on the five priests]] where we can debate in the comments if desired.

== A Change in Six ==

Forgive me if this has been stated elsewhere or if I'm misinterpreting things, but in the Miniseries, Six snaps a baby's neck seemingly without hesitation or remorse.  In this episode, Boomer is about to do likewise with Hera, but Six steps in and stops it.  [[User:TheUnknown285|TheUnknown285]] 02:43, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
:There have been some discussions on whether the baby killing in the miniseries was murder or mercy killing, given that a brutal nuclear bombardment is just a day or so away. Whether her facial expression afterwars shows indifference or remorse has also been a topic. As is to be expected, people have not agreed on a definitive conclusion.
:One must also consider that the baby in the miniseries was a complete stranger belonging to a species considered little more (or less) than pests by the cylons, while Hera was half cylon and Caprica Six's niece (since cylons see eachother as brothers and sisters). I am sure such duality have been shown by humans within a single day during ethnic conflicts. Killing a Jew and killing a German would be two different things in the eyes of a Nazi.
:Nevertheless, Caprica Six's change from mass produced, immature, seductive robot on a mission to exterminate the evil humans to independent woman advocating that killing humans is evil, is very much an importang plot thread in the latter episodes of season two and early episodes of season 3. Another change that has not been explained is the sudden disappearance of six's (girlish?) seductive behavior when she is around Baltar in the miniseries. She keeps switching to it even after revealing her cylon nature and it no longer serves any purpose, but it is never seen again after that. I don't think it is as prominent in the flashbacks to when she and Baltar first met either. [[User:Caldumidoan|Caldumidoan]] 01:54, 28 October 2011 (EDT)