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Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth | Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth | ||
:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005 | :Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005 | ||
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles? | This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles? | ||
Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User: | Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST) | ||
:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST) | :I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST) | ||
Kahran wrote: | Kahran wrote: | ||
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")'' | :''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")'' | ||
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User: | Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt-- | :I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt-- | ||
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::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable. | ::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable. | ||
::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User: | ::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below. | :::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below. | ||
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::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User: | :::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
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::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him. | ::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him. | ||
::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User: | ::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
:::::::::Sure. | :::::::::Sure. | ||
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::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST) | ||
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST) | :::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST) | ||