Editing Talk:Precipice/Archive 1

: For earlier discussions in this talk page prior to October 3, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Precipice&oldid=81257 click here].


__TOC__

==Production Number==
What's up with "Episode 1.5"? Shouldn't this count as episode 2 of the season, even if it's being aired as a 2-hour premiere? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 03:53, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
:Thats what ive always said, but for some reason all the episode numbering is messed up. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 04:35, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
:The writers officially count "Occupation / Precipice" as one episode. Bradley Thompson said that there will probably be only one intro. So "Precipice" still belongs to episode 1 (hence 1.5) and Season 3 only has 19 episodes on paper --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:21, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
::However, in terms of budgeting and production, "Occupation/Precipice" was 3.01 and 3.02, while "Exodus, Part I" and "Exodus, Part II" were both 3.03. Clearly our numbering system shouldn't reflect the vagaries of production, or else both parts of "Resurrection Ship" would be episodes 2.11 and Season 2 would only have 19 episodes.
::At the same time, we should ask - were "Occupation" and "Precipice" truly edited into a single episode, or is SciFi simply airing two episodes back to back on premiere night? In the event of the former, there should be a single entry for both "Occupation" and "Precipice". In the latter, they should retain separate entries, and each should have their own episode number (and none of this "1.5" business). --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 05:34, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
:::FWIW, [http://www.scifi.com/schedulebot/index.php3?date=6-OCT-2006&feed_req SciFi's schedule] has the premiere listed as a single two-hour block under the title "The Occupation/Precipice". I'd lay good money on them splitting it into two episodes for syndication, though. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 05:37, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Well, you could wait until the episodes have aired and edit it then. But I asked Mr. Thompson about just this, and he said "I have not seen the transition yet, but I believe it will be one episode. Which is why Episode 19 is the season 3 finale" in BW:OC. Good point about syndication though. Maybe the place where the break would be is cleary visible. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:43, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::Having given it considerable thoght, I think the best reason not to merge them into a single article is that I don't want to be citing ([[The Occupation/Precipice]]) as a single unit for the rest of time. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 06:15, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::One thing I think people aren't getting that that there ARE 20 episodes. "Occuprice" is episode 1, Exodus part 1 is episode 2, so on, totaling up to twenty. (I think) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:13, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::Whoops, scratch my previous comment that was here, I was wrong. For what it's worth, my DirecTV guide has it as a single two hour airing. With a repeat right after. Methinks that'll be good if there's a podcast for em.--[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:13, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::::There are twenty ''hours'', and (if Occupation/Precipice is counted as one episode) nineteen episodes. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:34, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
:Why not refer to Occupation/Precipice as "Episode 1," the following episode as "Episode 3," place a link to "Episode 1" on the Precipice page, and whenever Precipice is referred to as a separate episode, call it "Episode 2." Put a brief summary of Precipice in the Episode 2 article, put anything specific to Episode 2 in that article (if, say, there is a single Episode 2 podcast), and refer to the combined page for everything else. [[User:Joe n bloe|Joe n bloe]] 12:59, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

===Suggestion===
Here's a thought: Let's follow SciFi's lead with the podcasts. If they put up podcasts for two four-act shows, we'll keep it as two episodes; if they put up a single podcast for an eight-act show, we'll merge them into a single Occupation/Precipice article. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:38, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
:Ya know, so far this is the best suggestion in this whole conversation because I somehow get the feeling that they at scifi are themselves not yet certain about what to call these 2 opening 5 act pieces,but by the time the show starts on Friday, I'm sure they will have it figured out so let's not do their job for them and try to guess what they will do. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 16:08, 4 October 2006 (AST)
::I suggest we wait till they air, and see if there's an end between the two. For what it's worth, my DirecTV onscreen guide is showing one two hour block with a repeat right after it. That'll be nice for the podcasts, watch the episode, then right after watch it with commentary. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:21, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
Moore refers to the show as "Occupation/Precipice" in his [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2006/10/#a001414 latest blog entry]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:04, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:RDM often will lead off each podcast with (outside the I'm RDM, etc.) "and this is episode X of season Y, 'Z'". That may provide some insight as well if he continues that practice. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:53, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/season03/ SciFi.com] gives the two-hour premiere production numbers 301 and 302. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:36, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
:Using the second content warning after the ''bombing'' as the start of ''Precipice''. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 06:43, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
::RDM states this on the podcast too. Baltar/Roslin cell scene is the first of ''Precipice''. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:07, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Exactly what I was going to say but noticed my comment didnt post (edit conflict) hehe --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 13:04, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

==Pic==
What's that gold thing on Helo's lapel/uniform? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:52, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:Here is a better pic [[:Image:Greys_Mini.JPG]]. I believe that it is a symbol for the twelve colonies. But Kat doesn't have it?? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:11, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:It's a version of the Colonial seal with a smaller Phoenix in the center: http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=81 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:17, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
::If we don't have a pic here, we need it. :) --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:18, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:::The best option is probably to make a high resolution screencap from DVD (if a suitable closeup is available). Episodes with dress grays: Miniseries, Act of Contrition, Home II --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
In the episode itself, Kat's Grays does have the lapel pin. I was specifically looking for it in the scene, it must be a mistake in this picture. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:12, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
:Yeah, made sure I checked that too. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:14, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

==Kacey==
I'd like to start a page for Kara's daughter, but I'm not really sure how to spell her name. Casey? Kasey? If it is Casey, we'll need to disambiguate, as there's already a pilot named that. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 13:47, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't suppose anybody was watching with captions on? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:22, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
::The credits have it has "Kacey" in the credits. Also, spelled that way the RDM Chicago Tribune article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 14:51, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
::I had the captions on, and it was "Kacey". --[[User:ThesposAZ|ThesposAZ]] 02:37, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
::I am a captions type of guy also. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 02:39, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
Hey on the Answers thing for Kara's Duaghter says 16 months. That can't be right because it had to come to termm which would take nine months so two months after Baltar becomes the presisdent and the episode is 16 months subtract 2 months and she would be 14 months old and not 16 months old.- Best Snorkel378
:Incorrect. Baltar was elected c. Day 280. The one-year jump brought us to c. Day 660 by the end of LDYB2. Occupation began on the 134th day of the Cylon occupation, bringing us to c. Day 794 - roughly 27 months after the holocaust. Kara's ovary was removed during The Farm, which took place roughly 2 months after the holocaust. Add nine months for gestation and we get 27-(2+9) = 16. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:36, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
::To clarify - your problem is that you're rounding dates down and the error is accumulating. The jump forward in LDYB2 was 380 days, which is about 12 and 2/3 months. Then the jump between LDYB2 and Occupation is 134 days, which is 4 and 1/2 months. On top of it, the election in LDYB2 didn't take place exactly 270 days after the holocaust - the debates lasted about ten days, which is another 1/3 month, and the events of "Downloaded" were ''also'' said to be about 9 months post-holocaust, which pushes LDYB2 a few days forward to make everything fit. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:48, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
Does anyone think that Kacey might have been deliberately injured while Kara was out of the room, to force her sentiments?  The Cylons have been shown to inflict wounds on one another for the purpose of emotional manipulation before, to encourage feelings of love between humans and Cylons (the Litmus episode). Since Kara's imprisonment seems to be one big mind game, I can't shake this feeling. --[[User:tt25|tt25]] 15:57, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
: I believe this to be likely. However, this is assuming that Kasey is Kara's biological child -- or even a hybrid at all. Kasey could just as easily be a child they picked up off the streets of New Caprica to mind-frak Kara. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:51, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:: I think, the actress does not fit to Kasey's age of 16 month. Children do their first steps, when they are about one year old. Kasey trampolines on the sofa and runs around. Her behaviour is too safe. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 11:53, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:::She is however a human/cylon hybrid and might not necesserily match human development. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 12:06, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
::::The producers have been clear that Hera, another human/Cylon hybrid, will not have unusually fast growth. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
::::: If anything, Hera has unusually SLOW growth. The scene where her adopted mother goes to be with her at the end of season 2 shows a baby, yet this was clearly 12+ months after she was born. She should have been larger and such. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 03:11, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::: She was born prematurely. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:48, 12 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::Was that even Hera then though, or was it just a random other baby being looked after in the school/creché? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 04:24, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::::It was named as "Isis", but the child's asian features, the fact that the mother was [[Maya]] (Hera's adopted mother in "[[Downloaded]]"), and (most tellingly) the white crib from Baltar's vision in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" imply that the child is Hera beyond all reasonable doubt. Also, recall that Roslin had intended to keep a close eye on the child, and note RDM's comments regarding an abandoned plotline featuring Hera/Isis in the Occuprice podcast. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 04:28, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::I just want to bring up the fudge factor when determining kasey's age in that she could have been a premee just like Hera.  You could add as much as 3 months to her development.  So what was the guess, 16 months?  Add 3 months to that as a fudge factor and you get 19 months, that's close to 2 years.  And since Cylon related births have a history of difficulty (No Cylon/Cylon children, all known forced Cylon/Human pregnancy have fail -- The Farm, first known surviving Cylon/Human baby <Hera> was a premee), it's reasonable to figure in a fudge factor.  --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:32, 12 October 2006 (CDT)


Here is a thought. The cylon bodies that are waiting to be downloaded into have to be grown, right? Maybe they stopped the growth process of a Six, and that is where Kacey came from? Just another "could be." in the BSG world.--[[User:CylonGod|CylonGod]] 00:17, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:Nice thought, but what indicator is there that the bodies of Cylon agents have to be grown?  IIRC, Starbuck's flyby of the [[Resurrection Ship]] only showed adult Sixes in their vats.  It could be that they're constructed as adults from the get-go and not aged from a fetal core.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 13:49, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:In [[Rapture|Rapture (Season 3, Episode 12)]], Sharon Agathon tells us that Cylons have medical experience only with the adult humanoids of their kind. This suggests that they do not grow, but are constructed as adults. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 06:51, 9 July 2011 (EDT)

== Citations ==

I added citations but it somehow made the spoiler text unreadable. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:56, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

:I noted this and was unsuccessful in adding them back myself as I was massively concising the article while you made the attempt. I am adding the links here (WARNING: These links go to interviews that contain spoilers and, as with the technical issues, can't be hidden.)

:*[http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420145.html comments from Grace Park], [http://z9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=5610 Dean Stockwell], and [http://z9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=5655 Tricia Helfer]

:--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:05, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

::Does anyone have the copies of Battlestar Galactica Magazine so we can create official cites? I know these articles exist. but we really need the official "cite". --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:00, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Agree. Linking to a members-only message board is hardly satisfactory. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 03:54, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Concur. I have the July issue and will look for the comments. I may have the Grace Park issue as well to confirm. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:37, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Fairly sure that  the Dean Stockwell comments are in the last issue, 7. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:26, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

The citations linked above have all been deleted, and were never accessible to non-members in the first place. If the comments referring to these articles are to continue in the main namespace, then citations from the BSG magazine (or another appropriate source) must be supplied promptly. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 18:53, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

Here's an example that still works: http://galactica-station.blogspot.com/2006/09/six-shooter_115935580941130304.html 
I wish I could give a citation from the magazine, but I don't have any issues of it. Could someone please do that? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:44, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Ahem, has no one noticed the above? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 09:22, 8 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon on Cylon action ==

Boomer's destruction of the basestar is a bad example, as being a sleeper agent she didn't have the cultural taboo active, and her success appears to have been instrumental in getting her in position to accomplish her mission. I'd use an example of known Cylon on known Cylon on that bullet (which I don't have off the top of my head). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
:Agreed. That doesn't really make any sense. There might be Caprica-Sharon shooting a Six in "33", but one could argue that that doesn't count, because it was necessary. However, she does shoot another Sharon in "[[Colonial Day]]". -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::How about Caprica-Sharon using a Heavy Raider to shoot the crap out of some Centurions in [[The Farm]]? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 18:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
:::We're talking humanoid Cylons here. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::::Not according to the quote, which says "Cylon-on-Cylon violence". But even then, Caprica-Sharon shot a fellow Sharon in [[Colonial Day]]. D'Anna's statement may not be true, but she has no way of knowing that. The nuke in the basestar was done by a sleeper agent and had been ordered by a human, the Sharon in Colonial Day never saw her attacker, the Centurions who were shot to pieces in [[The Farm]] didn't resurrect (since they have no biological components, I think it's reasonable to assume Centurions have no conciousness and therefore don't download) and the Heavy Raider involved in that incident was taken to ''Galactica'' and never got a chance to communicate with the Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 19:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::She is referring to the attack on her in "Downloaded" and from their point of view, the humanoids ''are'' the Cylon. So by context, she's just talking about the humanoid models. You're right about the limited knowledge though. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

::::Even though the others did not witness Caprica-Sharon shooting a fellow Sharon, the dead Sharon would have resurrected. Given that the Cylons were engaged in an extensive manhunt for Helo and Caprica-Sharon, it stretches credibility to suggest that she would not have reported the shooting when she returned.  D'Anna immediately recognizes Caprica-Sharon when she catches her [[Exodus,_Part_I|taking the launch keys]], so it does seem odd that D'Anna would not know that significant detail of Caprica-Sharon's history. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 12:43, 6 July 2011 (EDT), Revised 03:56, 7 July 2011 (EDT)

== This guide... ==

Is just plain bad. We need to expand, cleanup, and fix up! All people who have the Season 3 disc set, load this disc up and fix! Make it Act 1, etc. etc. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 22:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, I noticed that too. We didn't really do such extremely detailed summaries back then, but even for that time it seems lacking. The Analysis section could also be improved. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 23:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

== trucks ==

Where did the trucks come from? What ship in the colonial or cylon fleet would have trucks aboard and for what purpose? Could they have been designed and built within the 15 months on the planet? They also look remarkably "Earth" like, perhaps more than any other design in the series. Therefore it would be appropriate and interesting to give these a mention. [[User:Xlynx|Xlynx]] 14:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
*Well, we've seen trucks in the series before on Caprica, so it's not a new development. There presence on New Caprica could be explained one of two ways:
:# They were aboard a Colonial freighter that joined the Fleet—and if you really want to be a nerd about it, you could say that they were on the Colonial Movers ship. ;-)
:# The Cylons built them. They had the resources to build the detention center and all that, and as such they would need equipment to do that (cranes, trucks, etc).
:-- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

*Settlers had trucks before the Cylons arrived. Near the beginning of [[Scar]], trucks are moving on the asteroid surface beneath the ore mining ship [[Majahual]]. You first see a truck on New Caprica near the end of [[Lay_Down_Your_Burdens,_Part_II|Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], as the camera first pans out of the window of Colonial One, and other trucks are seen as the camera moves overhead to show the entire settlement. Galactica or Pegasus may have had trucks for invasion purposes, but we didn't see them because they weren't needed before they settled on New Caprica. American naval forces in WW2, for example, carried land vehicles to various island landings in the Pacific and to the D-Day landing in Normandy. Also, many domestic manufacturers were converted to military production during WW2, so perhaps Adama did the reverse and used Viper manufacturing facilities to make trucks for the settlers. [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 10:52, 6 July 2011 (EDT)

:: Those were [[landram]]s, and they were featured in "[[Razor]]" in one of ''Pegasus''' landing bays as well, but you make a very good point. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 13:00, 6 July 2011 (EDT)

::Near the end of [[Unfinished_Business_(Extended_Version)|Unfinished Business (Extended)]], a truck goes by in the background after Adama tells Lee that Kara just got married. In the DVD/Blu-Ray Commentary, Ron Moore and editor Michael O'Halloran say that the settlers had trucks and the one in that scene justified the use of trucks in "Precipice". [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 15:36, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

== Cylon numbers revealed? ==

I just noticed that when the cylons vote aboard Colonial One, they do so in numerical order. Coincidence, or first hint? Is it worth mentioning? [[User:Caldumidoan|Caldumidoan]] 09:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)