Editing Talk:Pegasus (episode)/Archive 1

{{Template:Archive-bot
|maxarchivesize = 32K
|counter = 6
|algo = old(36h)
|archive = Talk:Pegasus (episode)/Archive%(counter)d
}}

== Proposed Episode Move ==

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]], Did you move the "proposed episode" stuff to another article, or just delete it? It should definitely be somewhere here. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:25, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
*I deleted it. It's completely, and I mean ''completely'', irrelevant to this episode. It belongs on the page for the original Living Legend episodes, if at all. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:35, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

== New Battlestar Image ==

There is a picture of the [[Mercury-class]] Battlestar in the preview after [[Flight of the Phoenix]]. We need a shot of Pegasus here on the page! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:46, 17 September 2005 (EDT)
:I noticed they still don't have the trailer up on the SciFi BSG page. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:35, 17 September 2005 (EDT)
::It was put up on SciFi approximately 2-3 days before the episode.  Mildly annoying.  [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 10:27 EDT, 24 September 2005

== SciFi's ''"Finale"'' Listing ==

Did you notice Pegasus advertised as the Season Finale of Galactica on SciFi channel last night?  Did they split the run of 20 into two seasons?  [[User:JohnReese|John Reese]]
*On closer study, it said "Summer Finale."  No idea what that means.  [[User:JohnReese|John Reese]]

::How many times must we re-explain this? A normal season for a show on Scifi (Stargate SG-1, Atlantis, etc) has 20 episodes. What they do is they take the first half of these and run them during summer, then run the second half during February-May. ***They've done this for like 4-5 years now. --->What may confuse you is that their ''advertisements'' in commercials refer to it as a "summer season finale".  '''That's just a marketing ploy. One Scifi Channel fans are all used to'''. Season 1 only had 13 episodes so they didn't do that then, but it's going to be in this new format forever. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005

== Mystery Cylon Ship Speculation ==

Any guesses what the mystery Cylon ship is for? [[User:Danaucpe|Danaucpe]]

*My guess is that its a Super Basestar--a ship so massive that it can create Basestars from natural resources of rocky planets. Whatever it is, it will take the combined forces of Pegasus and Galactica to take it down. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:10, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
*That is, of course, if they can get past the two [[Cylon_Basestar|Basestars]] & various support craft mentioned in [[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]].  The only reason that the Basestar went down in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I|Kobol's Last Gleaming]] is through sheer cunning (even part of which may be suspect, seeing as [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] is a [[Humano-Cylon]]).  [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 10:11 EDT, 24 September 2005
*Well, if we are guessing.  I'm going to look at the title of the next episode [[Resurrection Ship]] very literally.  The [[Humano-Cylon]]'s have asserted that they can't be killed. When they die, their conciousness is downloaded into a new body, hence a resurrection of sorts.  I would therefore speculate that this maybe a specialized vessel that helps facilitate these sorts of rebirths.  --[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 16:40, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

I got a itty bitty pic of it [http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4821/bscap2430lq.jpg here] Looks like an oval-ish shape, can't be too sure.
-Blacklight

== Blackbird FTL Capability ==

Any thoughts as to if the [[Blackbird]] is jump capable? [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 
*That's a good point - it'd have to be if it was going to jump to the location of the Cylon fleet, but we know that normal Vipers aren't jump-capable, and I imagine that a ship equipped with FTL wouldn't be as stealthy or speedy as the Blackbird apparently is...[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 13:40, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
**I already updated "[[Blackbird]]" to say that it is presumably Jump capable, which makes sense if it's a stealth ship; if it has to be launched from a Battlestar that's not very stealthy because Battlestars are easy to see on DRADIS.  It uses different engines which might be capable of limited Jumps. ---Ricimer, 24 Sept, 2005

: I think that the Blackbird may be Jump-capable, too--but until we see it, we shouldn't note it quite yet as fact. The point that Lee's Raptor was on its way to recon it suggests the Cylon fleet is aways off, and of course, if that fleet were in sublight range, we'd have a battle, so either Kara must have FTL, or has so much speed that she can approach and return on sublight within a reasonable time. Also, I strongly believe that FTL drives and sublight drives are NOT the same. Note Tigh's command in the Mini-Series to "spin up FTL drives 1 and 2." Since ''Galactica'' was already running on sublight engines at the time, the FTL drives are another mechanism and may not necessarily be within the same mechanism as the Blackbird's main sublight engines. Since we know that the Raptors DON'T use the same engines as the Blackbird, this gives more weight to the FTL drive being a separate box. Another wait-and-see point. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:04, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

*Also, seeing as we have not physically seen an [[FTL]] Drive, it's hard to say the size of the unit.  It would be safe to say that it's proportional to the size of the ship, even in some cases, that multiple ones are used (as in [[Galactica]]'s case). -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 13:24 EDT, 26 September 2005.

*The [[Blackbird]] <b>is</b> jump capable, as seen in [[Resurrection_Ship,_Part_I|Resurrection Ship, Part I]]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 02:54, 7 January 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus contingent discussion ==

Wasn't the ''Pegasus'' contingent of Vipers going to go on the mission as well? Maybe the ''Pegasus'' was going to jump in behind the moon and launch Vipers after Apollo and Pegasus-CAG scouted out the system. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:39, 26 September 2005 (EDT)

*Possibly, but the episode only gave us the fact that the Raptor was doing "photo recon only".  Another possibility is that the Vipers would be stationed at a staging point where the Raptor would jump ahead and back to.  This would be especially useful if things got hairy. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 16:57 EDT, 26 September 2005

== Summaries vs Speculation ==

We're all anticipating these episodes, of course. It's important to note that rumors, speculation and other unaired hearsay about this episode is not fit for summary entries. The summary is the factual summation of the '''aired content'''. If the episode has yet to air, then it is best to place only the information that could be confirmed from the official Sci-Fi Channel preview (being careful not to intepret it literally since they are always out of context) or official information from [[RDM]] himself. There was an entry of Cain's demise and Adama's rank change in this episode, while we also have similar information in the later ep, [[Resurrection Ship]]. Neither can both be right, so we need to wait until we have verified information, which, if the pattern continues from other eps, only happen when the episode airs. Rumors can be placed here in Talk at any time, but you may want to state your source. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:24, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

* Source of [[Spoiler]] [Cain's demise and Adama's rank change] podcast http://podcasts.lvrocks.com/details.aspx?castid=5 (9-7-2005) Second half of podcast about (1hr 6mins) into podcast.

* Other podcasts have some interviews with Battlestar cast memebrs i.e (8-10-2005) (9-14-2005) etc

: Thanks. Who made this podcast? Normally we take just RDM's and David Eick's podcasts and videos as official, so cast member comments may or may not be accurate if RDM and Co. have to adjust schedules, episode airings and stuff. Can you elaborate? If you want to add the stuff I took off back in the meantime, please feel free--I'm not the police or anything; I just want to ensure we keep things to a credible-enough source. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:35, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

== Philwelch & Ricimer ==

On 20:26, 24 September 2005, Philwelch posted the following to the Analysis section:

:*''Aside from Cain herself, the crew of the ''Pegasus'' seems exclusively male. No other female crew members are ever shown, and the behavior of the drunken ''Pegasus'' crewmen isn't what we may expect from men who are accustomed to being around women. This may be a contributing factor to the behavior of the ''Pegasus'' 's crew—if they travelled through space as long as they did, believing they were the remainder of humanity, Cain's power over the crew would have been more than merely military in nature—as the only surviving human woman, Cain would hold absolute sexual power over her crew as well. In addition, the lack of women aboard the ''Pegasus'' and the resulting sexual frustration could have led to the overly regimented, authoritarian, and brutal culture the crew developed, culminating in the senseless, repeated gang rape of the Cylon prisoner [[Gina]].''
:*''It is interesting how the portrayal of Cally's killing Galactica-Boomer in "[[Resistance]]" contrasts with the portrayal of the brutalized Gina and the attempted rape of Boomer.''

On 20:53, 24 September 2005, Ricimer reverted it with the comments:

:''speculation; yes, there are female Pegasus crewmen seen in halls.'' and ''Cally's retirement f G-Boomer doesn't really contrast with the rape scenes here.''

Ricimer, I found those contributions to be interesting and valid, and would appreciate it if, in the future, you would amend them with your objections rather than deleting them outright. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:00, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I've added a rebuttal of sorts to the former contribution, as I find it (to be frank) preposterous... although I am wary of seeing an [[Battlestar_Wiki:What_Battlestar_Wiki_is|encyclopedic]] page turn into a debate, it rather bothered me to see it there, so I added [[Battlestar_Wiki:What_Battlestar_Wiki_is_not|another view]]. ~ [[User:Aero|Aero]] 18:48, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::We can always refactor the argument and clean it up. I do consider it notable that aside from the Admiral, there are no female crewmembers on Pegasus with speaking roles in this episode. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:50, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

I picked up most of the idea from the Scifi.com forums, although it had occurred to me. If it was unintentional, then why not throw a woman in the background of the Pegasus CIC, or into the ready room? Why write the Pegasus deck gang as a group of crude gang rapists? Listen to the dialogue in that scene—that's *not* how men usually speak in mixed company, and the fact that they do speak that way in mixed company suggests they've forgotten how to act around women. I also find it amazing how many of us aren't quite as shocked at Boomer getting shot to death as we are at Boomer getting pinned down and almost raped by Lieutenant Thorne. The reason for that is probably that killing a Cylon has some sort of purpose, while raping one is just a sick and twisted way to cause pointless suffering. As for Ricimer, his edit warring and irrational vendetta against me must give some meaning to his life but I've learned to pretty much ignore him. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:00, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:Please, no ad hominem attacks either. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 22:10, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::Men don't act that way in mixed company? Must be I've been in college too long.. >_> ~ [[User:Aero|Aero]] 22:44, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:::If the other guys at your college boast about what a girl's face looks like when they gang rape her, I suggest you transfer. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:31, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::::That's not precisely what I meant... you miss my point, although I guess you do so intentionally. I was alluding to the fact that treating women as sexual objects, even in their presence, is not as unknown in our present culture as we might like to believe. ~ [[User:Aero|Aero]] 00:52, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::::: As I read it, he got you. Or, anyway, I get you both. I think his point was not about sexual objectification, but about dehumanizing and boasting about rape. That's a bit more than just saying, "Oh. Bro. I'd tap ''that''." You know what I mean? --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:10, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

Compromise suggestions:

:The paucity of female crewmen on ''Pegasus'' is interesting, compared to the crew of ''Galactica''. Apart from Admiral Cain herself, only a few female extras can be seen in various scenes, and none have speaking roles in this episode. (The extras in Galactica's ready room, for example, are usually about 50% female; only a couple women are visible in the ready room scenes on ''Pegasus''.) This stands in notable contrast to Ron Moore's egalitarian vision of gender issues in the military, and appears to have been an intentional decision made during production.

:The ''Pegasus'' pilots don't appear to be accustomed to speaking in mixed company, either - they either ignore or fail to understand [[Cally]] and [[Seelix]]'s disgust with their talk about gang-raping Gina.

No need to venture into "Mistress Cain" type "sexual domination" scenarios, in my opinion, but the lack of female presence in the lower ranks of ''Pegasus'' is a very distinct change from the rest of the series to date. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 03:46, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

:That's not really what it says, and I think my original point stands—where there's a shortage of women, the natural power of each individual woman within that society is greater. You have to realize that if maybe 1 out of 50 people aboard Pegasus is a woman, and everybody aboard Pegasus lived the months since the holocaust believing they were all that was left of humanity, that's an incredible disparity in numbers. I don't think the sexual power of Cain or anyone else aboard ''Pegasus'' was explicit, but it's a fair guess to say it was there, under the surface. I also think it's a fair guess to say sexual frustration is a contributing factor to the sort of culture that developed aboard ''Pegasus'', particularly the gang rape of Gina. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 14:24, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

== Cain vs. Civies ==

I think that the proportion of females among the ''Pegasus'' crew is interesting and all, but I think it's much more interesting that Cain has such a dismissive attitude towards Roslin. Her Deck Chief was (he hints) forceably drafted into service after being rescued from the station just before the ''Pegasus'' lit out. This, paird with Cain's general disregard for Roslin indicate to ''me'' anyway, that she doesn't like civies hanging about. She doesn't want them looking over her shoulder, she doesn't want them asking for parts or asking for defense and the ''certainly'' doesn't want to be held accountable to them. Before she ran across our RTFF, she was Ultimate King for Life of All Humans. I think she doesn't want to give that up. On a more personal note: I hope she gets dragged before a civillian court for some reason and I hope Tom Zarek is on her jury. >;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:40, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

: Spoiler information on the mid-season opener suggests a different fate for Cain, of course. But I'm looking forward to Roslin stepping up to bat in challenging Cain just as Roslin challenged Adama. We know how THAT one went. :) Since Cain's such a person for regs, perhaps Roslin can throw a few of her own since the President ''is'' the Commander-In-Chief (even in the Colonial worlds) and should be able to give an Admiral a direct order--as well as indicating that what Cain is doing is a coup, against regs, and that ''Galactica'' is working on the President's orders. Perhaps Roslin can even order Cain relieved of command. I'm making bets that Roslin resolves this really, really fast, even so much as placing Colonial One in the line of fire to stop both. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:17, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I think the evidence from Kobol's Last Gleaming suggests that the Colonial President doesn't have those sort of broad powers over the military—Apollo is still guilty of mutiny even though he was acting to protect the President from an illegal coup, for instance. There seems to be a suggested separation of powers between the military and civilian governments. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 14:33, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: True but conversely you could make the argument for military personnel being subordinate to the president from the mini-series where Roslin sends an order for Adama and the ''Galactica'' to come and assist in rescue operations.  Another example would be from the episode [[33]], where Adama is seen actively soliciting Roslin's input regarding the Olympic Carrier, [[You Can't Go Home Again]] where Roslin arrives on ''Galactica'' to unofficially reprimand Adama regarding the reckless nature of his ongoing search for Starbuck.  I agree that Roslin and Adama have come to an understanding that military decisions go through him but fleet matters belong to her but if tradition were to hold she is his boss.  I suspect that Spencerian is right.  Roslin will likely be the only one capable of defusing the situation we saw being Cain and Adama.  --[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 16:34, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

== Guest stars ==

I updated the guest stars from the starting credits. The four credits included Forbes, Beckel, Pyper-Ferguson and Spence. I couldn't identify the name of Spence's character, but he is the pilot who brags about having 48 kills. Hope someone has a name for him. --[[User:Laisak|Laisak]] 08:37, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

== Guest Star Trivia ==

Trivia note: The Pegasus pilot with the scorecard was played by Sebastian Spence, who starred as Cade Foster on SciFi's First Wave (I was wondering why he looked so familiar). Interestingly, the first Marine to step off Raptor 861 happens to look just like Roger R. Cross, who played Foster's nemeses on First Wave - Joshua and (even more interestingly) ''Cain''. --[[User:Dreampilotomega|Dream Pilot Omega]] 00:03, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

== Analysis ==

:*''Apollo's shift to a Raptor pilot seems to have been perceived as a demotion by Starbuck.  Yet, the CAG of the ''Pegasus'' was also going on the mission in the Raptor.  Is this really a demotion or merely an opportunity for [[Taylor]] to evaluate a new pilot?''
:**''As CAG, it is assumed that Taylor would be a Viper pilot.  Is his inclusion in the mission as a Raptor pilot do to the fact that he can only pilot a Raptor or that he feels he can more accurately direct the movements of the Vipers under his command with the advanced sensor gear available on a Raptor?''

I think this is quite clear. Taylor has essentially ordered Apollo to chauffeur him to the Cylon fleet, a duty easily fulfilled by someone of lower rank. As for Taylor himself, it's natural that he'd want a front-row seat on the recon mission.

:*''The behavior of the ''Pegasus'' personnel drinking on ''Galactica'' seemed unprofessional and more than a little rough.  Are these actual military personnel or civilian personnel who were drafted into service after the Cylon's attack?''

They say themselves that they haven't had booze since the Cylon attack. They're probably out of practice holding their liquor. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:09, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:I can see your point on this.  However, I would state that if Taylor wanted a front row seat for the mission that he would've been just as likely to pilot a Viper.  My take on it, and this is just my take, is that either way is speculative at this point.  Taylor could've been trying to knock Apollo down a notch as he'd earlier in the same episode called him 'Daddy's boy.'  --[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 17:36, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:To be totally fair, I'm not sure any of my proposed analysis points were such that they required removal.  They may not be the correct interpretation of the episode but I don't recall, any correct me if I'm wrong, anything that was displayed that would pre-empt them as being totally incorrect. --[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 17:38, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Before I get to the point: It's hard to determine exactly who said what when you insert your comments inside someone else's, Feldspar. Just so you're aware. Anyway, the point. On the last bit, here, I agree that they were unprofessional and rough, but I would never have come up with the idea of that being because they're civilians ratehr than actual military on my own. There was nothing at all to indicate that and I don't think there's any kind of precedent set that would let us assume that because someone is unprofessional or rough or can't hold their liquor, that they're civilians, rather than military. That seems really out of the blue to me.

:: As for the first bit, if Cmdr. Adama had planned the recon mission (and, for some reason, not used the Blackbird), He'd prolly have had Apollo and Starbuck watching some no-name Raptor team. Piloting a Raptor is not so much a formal demotion as a standing demotion, I think. Vipers are where the glory is. It's like asking a pilot who flies an F-14 every day to fly an AWACS. They're slower, they're not in the middle of the action and they have no guns. As for the CAG from ''Pegasus'', I think he's either babysitting Apollo in order to keep an eye on him, or else maybe he's normally part of a Raptor crew. We don't know how it works, exactly, but I imagine that the CAG doesn't have to fly a Viper. It's whichever pilot is most senior. However, he seems to be doing ECO duty for Apollo, which is not a pilot's job, so... go figure. Probably more will be revealed on this point in January. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:51, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Cleaned up my followup, I agree the way I'd put it in there was far from intuitive.  My apologies to any confusion this may have caused.  My intention was not to pass off any assertions I may have had as someone elses.  --[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 17:58, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be a Nazi, and I appreciate your contributions. I just considered these too obvious to be noteworthy. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 21:12, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

== "Pegasus": The Director's Cut ==

The Director's Cut version of Pegasus which will be coming out in the Season 2.5 DVD set will be radically different from the current episode.  Indeed, after much internal pondering, I came to the conclusion that this presented a situation that is really *unprecedented* in the history of this wiki.  An alternate version of an episode, with over 25% more material recut into it.  My question is, for this new situation, should we create a ''separate'' page for "Pegasus (Director's Cut)", or should we create a (*large*) new subsection on the existing page?  (The more I think about it, the more I think that tacking it onto the current page would make it very cluttered).  Thoughts?  Talk amongst yourselves.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:35, 29 December 2005 (EST)

:Oh, awkward. Tentatively suggesting a separate page, restricted to deal with the differences between the two cuts. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:44, 29 December 2005 (EST)

We could just add the events of the director's cut to the summary and asterisk them to indicate they only occur in the director's cut. (No new section, except for what we have already to indicate that there is a longer director's cut.) After all, the two versions aren't going to contradict, so the director's cut should be treated as the full canon episode anyway. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:50, 31 December 2005 (EST)

:Actually, I think that raises a new question for debate;  should the Director's Cut of Pegasus be considered a "full [[canon|canon]] episode"??  In the past, we've always taken deleted scenes with a grain of salt; i.e. later episode ''can'' contradict them, though unless something else presents itself they are often our only source of information for some things that the writers fully intended, but simply lacked the time for.  Other times this is not the case.  Regardless,  a "re-edited" episode changed to ''include'' such scenes has never happened before.  Should we consider information in the Director's Cut to be automatically canonical?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:47, 31 December 2005 (EST)

:: I think that, because RDM likes what scenes are re-edited into the episode, he'll probably stick to it. I think adding the scenes in (maybe with something akin to the spoiler template, but without the text hidden) is a good idea, but we should also watch for contradictions. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 31 December 2005 (EST)

:: Isn't Ricimer's suggestion the same way we treat regular episodes? E.g., the number of ships mentioned in the mini-series was canon until Home retconned it. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 12:29, 1 January 2006 (EST)

:::Not exactly. Under the circumstances, anything from an earlier episode contradicted by the Director's Cut wouldn't take precedence. I'm torn on the issue, and my above-stated opinion should not be taken as a vote either way. Maybe a subsection on this page for the Director's Cut would be a better idea. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 13:01, 1 January 2006 (EST)

If the director's cut of Pegasus is being officially released as a BSG episode, it's canon. And there's no need for something as bulky as the spoiler template, just use an asterisk. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:24, 1 January 2006 (EST)

== Quality article candidate ==

I think this should be the first "quality article" because it's well researched, most debates have been fully developed, it's one of the more informative/pivotal/important pages, and it's one of the most popular.  Thoughts? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:00, 5 January 2006 (EST)
:I think it needs some concision badly. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:25, 5 January 2006 (EST)
::Like what?  Why not change it now?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:30, 5 January 2006 (EST)
:::Actually, it's not as bad as I thought. CalculatinAvatar cleaned it up nicely. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:00, 5 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So the template's there... But, uh... the template doesn't exist. What should such a template look like? I'd create it, if I had a remote idea or could unscramble my brains enough to think well after watching the Rose Bowl just now. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:10, 5 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This page is far from our best. I was just browsing it and noticed many errors. I removed the template for now (it's not functioning right, anyhow) and made some edits that I'm still not satisfied about. I want to review it again--something doesn't strike me right about the page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:54, 5 January 2006 (EST)