Editing Talk:Occupation/Archive 1

:For discussions prior to October 3, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Occupation&oldid=66799 click here].


__TOC__

== Sourcing Rules == 
I wonder if the desire to be "authoritative" here at Battlestar Wiki isn't getting twisted and perverted. We know a lot about Season 3 that is somehow not getting into print. For instance, we have photos of some episodes, casting "sides" from some of the scripts, and comments from some of the participants that amount to a pretty clear picture of some of the major plot points of the first few episodes, yet we are not writing what we clearly KNOW because the episodes have not aired and anything would therefore be "speculative." THIS IS RIDICULOUS. These are tougher sourcing rules than they have at the ''New York Times'' and the ''Washington Post'', and let's face it, that is now what people are coming to us for. They want to know what is going on with their favorite show, and god knows we have spoiler warnings everywhere to protect those who don't want to know. Most major newspapers have the "three source rule," which means all or part of what you write needs to be covered by three independent sources. We have that in many cases but are sitting on our hands and not writing the info. The "overview" section we do have for the episodes is not really an overview but a collection of speculation from various sources. If Ron Moore said something at a conference three months ago, we treat it as a grand pronouncement ex cathedra even though three months is a long time and a lot of things can change in TV at the last moment. But we have photos of scenes shot (and published!) and we are not writing what is clearly in them. Something is very screwed up here. No journalistic or editorial operation should be operating this way, being so skittish and chicken s--t about things that any reasonable person can conclude are true. We are a month from the start of Season 3, and Battlestar Wiki is lagging way behind other sources, on the Web and elsewhere, about what will be happening in the new season. We need to grow some brass ones, and write what we know. The whole rest of the world is writing about what will be happening starting Oct. 6. We have decided to wait until after it happens. That's not authoritative; that's stupid. --[[User:Elach|Elach]] 02:31, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think you missed the point of what we are. We are guide to BSG. Not a news source. We collect, eveluate the source. We write only facual information on the show. Most of the information on this page has a cite along with it making it true. We knew a long time ago Anadama Plummer was a guest star because of the podcast link, but we didn't sepculate on the plot because production and recordings change sometimes days before airing. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 02:44, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== First act up on scifi.com ==
The 1st act of this episode is on the website and some of the speculation is right and some is wrong from the transcript that got circulated earlier this year.  Obvious an early draft.  In any case, I think that things can be added from this cut from their website which I would like to start after I stop watching this thing over and over and over...and oh by the way, I gotta work to.  Maybe I'll make my contributions in a few hours. -- [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:47, 04 October 2006 (AST)

Did anyone else notice that the credits said Candice McClure and not Kandyse McClure? Apparently she had been credited as Candice in some roles earlier in her career but as far as I remember, she has always been credited as Kandyse on Battlestar Galactica. The Sci Fi site still lists her as Kandyse. What gives? Is this just another slip-up on the part of the people in charge of onscreen text? (Remember the problem with Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson in the end credits?) They also spelled Helo's full name incorrectly on the humorous video blog that showed the effect that the Peabody Award had on David Eick. Helo's real name was incorrectly shown as Karl Agation with an "i". [[User:123home123|123home123]] 18:09, 04 October 2006 (EDT)

:I'm going to have to look into that credit issue later.  I put a summary in for what was shown on Scifi.com.  I hope I did it in the most correct way.  Feel free to make modifications where needed.   -- [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:53, 04 October 2006 (AST)

:Thanks to Shane, Peter Farago, Spencerian, and Noneofyourbusiness for editing my additions.  This is my first time at adding major content to an episode page outside of the The Resistance Webisodes page so I was just letting it flow without worrying about format.  Though, I am particularly happy that you all left my use of the terms "skinjobs" and "chromejobs".  I felt that this was appropriate from the point of view of the characters involved.  -- [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:31, 04 October 2006 (AST)


Request that analysis section is deleted! The comments are not analytical and instead seem rather speculative, amounting to nothing which is noteworthy.-- [[User:jxh487|jxh487]]
:Committing an act of vandalism on the main page isn't going to help your case. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:06, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:Jxh487, since the episode has not yet aired, the information is the best official data available. This will last here for one more day in the US, where it will likely be replaced. As the previous user stated, don't vandalize a page to prove a point, please. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:14, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
::Yes, the episode(s) will probably prove or disapprove both points. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:26, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:::I want to add back the note telling about this act being played on the website before the airing on TV because I think it is a significant marketing innovation that should be documented, an innovation as important to record as the plot line in the summer.  Thoughts?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:43, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

== Speculation? ==

''It is worth noting that in "Exodus, Part II", Ellen betrays Saul in some fashion. Therefore, her motives are presently unknown.''

How can we put this up based on Overview? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:18, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
:We shouldn't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:31, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

frak the cylons. the human race will ultimately survive. just seen the episode. pretty cool yet it not reveals ellens intentions so we shouldnt. 06:31, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
:Her intentions are pretty clear. She will protect Saul at all costs. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 06:54, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

==Oracle Selloi==

I didn't see Amanda Plummer at all in Occuprice, and her name wasn't in credits. Either her scene got deleted, or she'll be appearing in a later episode (more likely, I think). I'm taking her out as a "Special Guest." [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:25, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
:From the teaser, it seems she'll be appearing in Exodus. BTW, "Occuprice" doesn't make much sense as Precipice ends on a "pice" instead of a "price". A better merger would be Occupice. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:05, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
::I noticed that too. But the title comes from on high (ie Ron Moore's blog). I realize he probably just mistyped, but I've gotten used to calling it that. The "-pr-" has a better cadence, in my opinion at least. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 21:33, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm hoping to see this character; we have so little information on the nature of [[oracle]]s. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:19, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

== Survivor count ==

Did anyone else notice the lack of a survivor count during the starting credits? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:23, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'm guessing that they didn't want to bother, because the body count is moving too fast, and the humans are all split up to boot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:19, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That's my assumption as well, right now. I imagine that after the exodus they might resume the count, at least in some form, provided Roslin ever becomes president again. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:04, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
::: I think that the reason is they tell the story from a point of view of the characters not from a God-view (or gods-view in their case) of the overall story - meaning, somebody was keeping track of the population count and they just put that info up front for us.  And the person who kept track of the population count was always Roslin.  Remember, Roslin always kept the population count up on that wallspace and when Baltar became president he replaced it with his own portrait.  Now, with the population split up and Roslin no longer in a place of central control, there's nobody keepin a hard track on the population count so that info isn't available to us because that info isn't available to the characters.  That's my take.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:16, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Season 2 used a gods-eye-view population count - early on in the season, it reflected deaths on Kobol that Roslin couldn't possibly have known about. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::That might have been a flaw because it was my understanding that the survivor count was reflecting Roslin's survivor count.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:40, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
::::::Your understanding is incorrect. See [[Survivor Count]] for a detailed breakdown including several deaths of which Roslin could not have been aware.	 
::::::There were a total of four people killed on Kobol (Karma, Tarn, Socinus, and Crashdown). The survivors are recovered at the end of "Fragged", but the count in "Resistance" is only decremented by one — presumably Crashdown, who did in fact die in the previous episode. This, along with a single-person decrement between "Scattered" and "Valley of Darkness" in which nobody died except Tarn (who was on Kobol) suggests that the survivor count was omniscient.
::::::Also keep in mind that Roslin was separated from her whiteboard from the end of "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II" to the end of "Home, Part II", and would not have been privy to population statistics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:52, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

== still missed in the summary ==

Thanks to the people on the english side, our summaries of Occupation and Precipice were probably the first ones, which were released in the internet in german language :o) But there are some things still missing in this both episodes: the diary of Roslin, the discussions between the both Adamas and with Dualla (weak Apollo with fat ash, find somebody who can, Pegasus will not participate), the discussion between Admiral Adama and Sharon Agathon (centurions cannot differenciate the copies), and the discussion of the Cylons at Colonial One (decreasing humankind, the opposition of Galactica-Sharon and Caprica-Six,, WE!! agree), Galactica-Sharons discussions with several humans and the shooting of Caprica-Six. It would be helpful, if the native english speakers could add this to the summaries and point out the real important informations, which were given. Thank you. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 16:13, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

== Show Caps ==

I got some relevent screencaps here: [[:md:User:Shane/gallery#Tue_Oct_10_19:26:58_EDT_2006|User:Shane/gallery#Tue Oct 10 19:26:58 EDT 2006]] --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 18:13, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

== Guest stars ==

Has anyone verified all the guest stars listed? I know many of these people were credited at the beginning of Occupation but this was only because Occupation and Precipice were combined into one super-episode. I don't think Rick Worthy (Simon) and Larissa Stadnichuk appeared in Occupation. They only appeared in Precipice. -- [[User:123home123|123home123]] 18:28, 12 October 2006 (EDT)
:I think it's based on what the episode shows rather than what we see. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 17:08, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

Donnelly Rhodes and Erica Cerra are credited, but Cottle and Maya are absent from ''both'' episodes. Anyone have an idea as to which episode(s) they were supposed to be in? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 22:30, 1 January 2007 (CST)
:It probably means that they shot scenes that were cut --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:44, 2 January 2007 (CST)

== Leave the questions posed in the article! ==

We really should be following the format from the previous episode reviews on the site.  Whenever a question was posed and an eventual answer is discovered, the editors in those articles didn't delete the question, they actually added pointers from the question to the Analysis section or notes.  Someone else who will read these articles might ask the same questions and may have overlooked the "answers" as there are usually a lot of show notes and analysis.  Please do us the courtesy of simply linking or pointing, instead of just off-handly deleting questions.  This is a very strange article that it has NO questions at all.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

:But this isn't just about questions in one episode answered further down the line. The answer to Anders's sickness is something that can be deduced from this episode alone. I don't see why it warrants so many bulletpoints. One point speculating that he might have gotten medicine from the Cylons is enough IMO (that might belong to Analysis then tho). The full hospital might not have been built yet, but why should that prevent the Cylons from distributing medicine by other means? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:53, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

::Concur. I'm not advocating the squelching of opinions, just that we should hash out the ideas out here on the talk, and then post what the consensus is. It's better for the article to read like there's a single voice, not like a message board. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:11, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Good point about the message board feeling. I already had the impression that those points read like a discussion on a forum, with a clear back and forth. Moreover some have a clear POV, with words such as "granted" and "I think". I removed those. Speculation has a place but it needs to be written from a neutral point of view --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:17, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

God, no. Once a question has been answered conclusively it's been our tradition to move the material to analysis. I'm sorry if I was overzealous in my attempts to clean this page up, but this kind of four-level back-and-forthing is unacceptable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:48, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

== How do we know that the two Cavils were really killed? ==

I posed the question of whether the two Cavils we've seen are the same ones fro Laying Down Your Burdens.  This question was posed in the question section of that episode, and it was clear that no one had a clear answer.  Roslin made the statement of throwing those two out of the airlock were off-handingly.  It wasn't clear whether they lived or not.  The reason I brought it up in this article is because it is very odd that we've only seen two Cavils amongst the leadership of the Cylons right now.  We've seen a # of 5s, 6s, 8s, and 3s, 1 Simon, and 2 Cavils.  It could be just luck of the draw, but I still believe the question is valid.  If those two were the original ones we saw, considering that both of them are dressed in their priestly robes, some of the animosity towards humans from being locked up might be contributing to their harsh hands.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
:In a deleted scene for Lay Down Your Burdens Part II, Tyrol says to Cally that they threw the two Cavils out an airlock to night before. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:10, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
::Good catch. In that case you should probably add it and remove the rest of the speculation since the deleted scene makes it pointless. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:15, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
::It then seems very strange to me that the two Cavils are both dressed as priests.  In every other model of the Cylons that we've seen, their dress indicates what kind of function they perform.  It is also the way the show indicates to us which Cylon is which.  The Caprica-Six and Boomer are dressed in unique clothing in comparison to the other versions of them.  Even Baltar's six is usually dressed in red to seperate her from the other Six's we've seen on the show.  It is interesting that the scene was deleted, maybe it was for time, but then it's even stranger that the two Cavils (if they are new versions), are dressed like their counterparts.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:16, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
:::I really don't think there's any room for speculation here. My impulse is still to delete the entire thing - does anyone besides LifeStar find this a fruitful line of inquiry? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:30, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Not really. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:54, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Asking why the models are dressed the same might be of interest, but I find it extremely implausible, that the Colonials kept the Cavils alive on New Caprica until the Cylons arrived. It makes the most sense to assume they were killed --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:50, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

== Now this is what I'm talking about ==

After reading the further edits and info posted in the article and discussion, it feels like we're gettint to the meat of the episode finally.  I may be wrong about the Cavils, esp. the idea of them being kept on New Caprica does seem implausible, but it was good to flesh those ideas out.  For Anders, he may have been given medicine by the Cylons, just n ot sure.  Either case, I hope that we'll let the questions remain, and point out the answers, when we discover them, in the analysis section.  More people who read these articles may ask the same questions and would like to know that there is a provided answer.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:24, 13 October 2006 (CDT)


== Suicide Bombing ==
I don't know if this has been brought up in other episode discussions, but as foreign and repulsive as suicide bomgings are made to appear to the humans and cylons, this was not the first time since a Doral (#5) already committed this act. My hypothesis is that the Cylons have had intermittent communications with the Colonial Fleet, (#3) video. (which just made me wonder, future episode fodder...how did the undercover #3 get exposed?) Depending on whether he wanted to be resurrected/reincarnated with the bombing memories there may be a #5 with the bomber memories (future episode fodder - develop #5's character) [[User:Luis F. Gonzalez|Luis F. Gonzalez]] 16:11, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

== answer to Helo/Kat rank question ==

Sorry, but stating that Helo is still wearing "Lieutenant, s.g." insignia - or his old ones if you want to argue that we don't really know their meaning (which we do though) - is not speculation. They are clearly visible in several scenes. It's fact. For Kat we don't know.<br>
So maybe the answer wasn't written in the preferred format (link to future episode article), but it does exist --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 03:19, 30 October 2006 (CST)

== HD Screencaps ==

So far the only screencap thats been used for this episode, or precipice was 'hope.jpg' which i've already updated by uploading the HR HDTV (960x528) version. It's a lot clearer than the iTunes one. However, there are no other caps to change so far - i think these articles would look a lot better with a few more caps, especially Precipice. I've got the HR HDTV version of this two parter, and i'll have the full 720p in a week or so, so if you lot can make up a list of caps you want - please let me know on my talk page. In the meantime, i'll see if there are any caps from these two eps that haven't been used yet and upgrade them - that okay? :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:12, 13 January 2007 (CST)
:I've already updated/added 3 crops on different articles with their HD counterparts provided by a poster at Skiffy. I'll try to find more caps, but that's all for now.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:43, 13 January 2007 (CST)