Editing Talk:Ionian Nebula/Archive 1

== The Great Exodus? Not. ==

It is not true that "Lieutenant Felix Gaeta discovers that a nova occurred in the Ionian system which was seen around the same time as the Great Exodus." The Great Exodus was about 2,000 years ago, "around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol." The Ionian nova was "seen 4,000 years ago, around about when the Temple might have been built," "which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe."

It's kind of besides the point, because you've obviously made a 2,000 year blunder, but I think this is how the scriptures make sense:

The 13th tribe left Kobol on a journey to Earth 4,000 years ago. (They, or somebody, soon resettles Kobol.)

The 13 tribes left Kobol for the Colonies 2,000 years ago.

The 13th tribe is all 12 tribes combined. And it is the rag-tag fleet presently; what happened 4,000 years ago is happening again now.

This is a bit speculative, and so should not go onto any pages, but I'm just trying to show you how it could make sense what they say on the show: the 13th tribe left Kobol 4,000 years ago (on a journey to Earth), and also the 13 tribes left Kobol 2,000 years ago (for the 12 Colonies.)

--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 10:54, 21 February 2007 (CST)

:I fixed it. That's also how the timeline article explains it. Anyways, they moved the date back on the show, and for me it doesn't make that much sense to interpret so much into Elosha's one little comment.

:Of course there is also the possibility of them coming from Earth to Kobol around 4000 years ago and then leaving Kobol again, neatly explaining why the dates go backwards farther out. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:11, 21 February 2007 (CST)

::I don't believe this is a correct analysis. The Thirteenth Tribe left 4,000 years PM (prior to Miniseries) as noted in "The Eye of Jupiter". The remaining twelve tribes left 2,000 years later, according to Elosha. Supporting the Thirteenth Tribes' account is Pythia, who wrote her account 3,600 years PM. We may have yet another retcon, but we shouldn't reinterpret the numbers to make sense for our benefit. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:32, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

== Nebula and Earth ==

I see Serenity removed a note about the relationship between the nebula and [[Earth]] with the comment "We don't really know anything of how Starbuck went to Earth, or if it's even true. Or if maybe the Cylons went there and they have way better FTL technology."

I'm a bit confused by this comment.  What I added was strictly stuff from the show.  That Earth is a modest round trip using whatever jump technology that Starbuck has, and that she also feels it is a reasonable trip with fleet technology under her guidance.   All that is based on what Starbuck says.  She worries we don't know if it's true, and that is the case, but surely we're not trying to make a rule that you can't add things a character has said because they might be a lie.  At best one would want to note that there is reason to doubt what they say.

The other note that was deleted simply indicated that Earth was shown to be in very roughly the same region of the Galaxy as the nebula, and that is indeed the case, it's shown quite clearly as the last 4 seconds of the episode, so I'm at a loss for why it would be deleted.

Short of making arguments that Starbuck (or whoever it is) is lying, I think it is Canon that she made a round trip to Earth (using her better jump tech) and that she can take the fleet there.   So any other reasons why this should be deleted? {{unsigned|Bradterm}}

:1.) We don't know if she really has been to Earth. It might be true, it might be something else entirely. You can say that she claims to have been to Earth, but until some confirmation is presented, I'm against speculation taking everything at face value. And contrary to what you are implying, this is a special case. Her return is out of the norm and nothing is known about its reason or cause. There is a basis for assuming that not everything might be as it seems.
:2.) If it's true, the only FTL technology available to her is Cylon technology which is considerably more advanced than Colonial technology. Granted, even the Colonials might reach Earth in a few hundred jumps.
:3.) Yes, if it's true, Earth is probably in the general vicinity of the nebula. However, that was not shown "clearly", there is a considerable zoom-out showing the ''entire'' galaxy. But all in all, it just sounded very speculative. In a different version it might be ok with qualifiers, just not in the matter of fact way you phrased it in. But I'm not sure it's really needed. Any other opinions? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:52, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Point is, this is stuff said in the show about the position of Earth WRT the nebula.  We should document it.  If there is reason to doubt it -- and I'm not saying there isn't such reason -- we should document that too.   We don't actually know what sort of FTL tech she used for the round trip to Earth she speaks of, but we do know she claims a RT to Earth.   And as for the pull-out, I and many others have gone through that in frame-at-a-time mode, and the pull-out leaves and re-enters the picture of the galaxy at almost exactly the same point.   The purpose of that pull out is to show you the connection of the Nebula to Earth and it also seems to confirm Starbuck's claims, though I won't say it's definite.   Anyway, my point is this is important information from the show, and rather than removing it, the right course is to document other information that casts doubt on Starbuck's claims.
::::I agree with the sentiment that we should stick with documenting it and let the reader make their own conclusions.

::::However, I don't think that the fact that she's been to Earth and back necessarily implies anything about the distances involved, or the number of jumps remaining, etc. It may be thousands of jumps, but the way she returned to Earth was unconventional. There's no way to know. So I'd almost rather see the "If true" sentence axed. I do really like the zoom note, though, and hadn't really noticed that. Good catch. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:37, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

:::::The zoom out and back in again gives absolutely no clear indication of the true distance between the location of the fleet and Earth. Starbucks viper clearly exploded in Maelstrom so the speculation that her Viper had some kind of advanced FTL drive is just fanwanking, as is stating that she could be a Cylon. Ive watched the zoom out and in bit literally about 20 times trying to work out locations and stuff but its really hard. Just before and just after the wide galaxy shot the glare from the stars fill the screen with brightness so you really can't make any pin pointing. This [[:Image:Locations_in_BSG_galaxy.jpg|rough image]] I made isn't really much help either as we have no idea how much further the fleet has traveled since [[Home, Part II]]. If you'll excuse my fanwanking but if i had to guess where the fleet were it would be on the edge of the Orion arm of our Galaxy as [http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/7108/fleetnz9.png indicated here]. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 16:39, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::Vipers don't have FTL at all.  If Starbuck's been to Earth and back as she claims, it's using the technology of the head-leoben people who rescued her.  They are not necessarily Cylon, I don't know who added the text about Cylon tech.   As for the zoom out-in, I watched it frame by frame and it definitely goes in and out in the same spot.  It's not the right spot on a picture of our galaxy, but it's very hard not to read this little sequence, along with Starbuck's claims as the show telling us "Earth is not so far away."  How far we don't know, but it's not super far.   Starbuck tells us Earth is close.  The graphics tell us.  That's the main thing I wanted to document.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:28, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

::::::I do not think that [[:Image:Locations_in_BSG_galaxy.jpg|this image]] is correct. As far as I know, our galaxy has a diameter of 100000 light years. The distance shown between Earth and the Colonies in the image are roughly 1000 light years. Between the episodes [[Rapture]] and [[Crossroads, Part II]] the fleet traveled 13000 light years. As long as the fleet did not traveled into the wrong direction the positions shown in the image are wrong. I found [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=683 this screencap]. If I remember correctly, Earth is in this bright cloud at the bottom of the image. The fleet is in the cloud 2 cm above. Earths distance to the galaxy are roughly 30000 light years. Maybe someone can calculate the exact distance between the Ionian Nebula and Earth, but I estimate 5000 light years. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 18:23, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

:::::::The image I made was never supposed to be 100% accurate and was based on the location of the Lagoon nebula. You can read a bit more about it on the [[Navigation in the Re-imagined Series|Navigation]] page. If you want to have a stab at making a new image then go ahead, its all a bit of a mind-frak for me lol --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 18:28, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

:::::::We are heading into fanwanking territory and too much speculation again. You might think that Starbuck was rescued by the beings of light or whatever, but that doesn't belong on this page. For our purposes the only technology that exists is either human or Cylon. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:09, 31 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::::That's why I didn't write anything about the technology itself, it is just the technology of whatever agents were responsible for her survival.  We don't know who they are.  They aren't colonial.  It doesn't match any Cylon technology either -- it's generally accepted it was not Leoben who guided her.   To speculate on what it is would be a fanwank, but to identify it as unknown and say little about it is proper documentation of what we are shown.   I think to say it is Cylon tech is the fanwank, just as the people who insisted you couldn't be final five if you had been around for more than two years were fanwanking (to negative results) but that's another thread.  :-)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:12, 31 March 2007 (CDT)
@@ Line 23: / Line 23: @@
 == Nebula and Earth ==
-I see Serenity removed a note about the relationship between the nebula and [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]] with the comment "We don't really know anything of how Starbuck went to Earth, or if it's even true. Or if maybe the Cylons went there and they have way better FTL technology."
+I see Serenity removed a note about the relationship between the nebula and [[Earth]] with the comment "We don't really know anything of how Starbuck went to Earth, or if it's even true. Or if maybe the Cylons went there and they have way better FTL technology."
 I'm a bit confused by this comment.  What I added was strictly stuff from the show.  That Earth is a modest round trip using whatever jump technology that Starbuck has, and that she also feels it is a reasonable trip with fleet technology under her guidance.   All that is based on what Starbuck says.  She worries we don't know if it's true, and that is the case, but surely we're not trying to make a rule that you can't add things a character has said because they might be a lie.  At best one would want to note that there is reason to doubt what they say.
@@ Line 29: / Line 29: @@
 The other note that was deleted simply indicated that Earth was shown to be in very roughly the same region of the Galaxy as the nebula, and that is indeed the case, it's shown quite clearly as the last 4 seconds of the episode, so I'm at a loss for why it would be deleted.
-Short of making arguments that Starbuck (or whoever it is) is lying, I think it is Canon that she made a round trip to Earth (using her better jump tech) and that she can take the fleet there.   So any other reasons why this should be deleted? {{unsigned|Bradtem}}
+Short of making arguments that Starbuck (or whoever it is) is lying, I think it is Canon that she made a round trip to Earth (using her better jump tech) and that she can take the fleet there.   So any other reasons why this should be deleted? {{unsigned|Bradterm}}
 :1.) We don't know if she really has been to Earth. It might be true, it might be something else entirely. You can say that she claims to have been to Earth, but until some confirmation is presented, I'm against speculation taking everything at face value. And contrary to what you are implying, this is a special case. Her return is out of the norm and nothing is known about its reason or cause. There is a basis for assuming that not everything might be as it seems.
@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 ::::However, I don't think that the fact that she's been to Earth and back necessarily implies anything about the distances involved, or the number of jumps remaining, etc. It may be thousands of jumps, but the way she returned to Earth was unconventional. There's no way to know. So I'd almost rather see the "If true" sentence axed. I do really like the zoom note, though, and hadn't really noticed that. Good catch. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:37, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
-:::::The zoom out and back in again gives absolutely no clear indication of the true distance between the location of the fleet and Earth. Starbucks viper clearly exploded in Maelstrom so the speculation that her Viper had some kind of advanced FTL drive is just fanwanking, as is stating that she could be a Cylon. Ive watched the zoom out and in bit literally about 20 times trying to work out locations and stuff but its really hard. Just before and just after the wide galaxy shot the glare from the stars fill the screen with brightness so you really can't make any pin pointing. This [[:md:Image:Locations_in_BSG_galaxy.jpg|rough image]] I made isn't really much help either as we have no idea how much further the fleet has traveled since [[Home, Part II]]. If you'll excuse my fanwanking but if i had to guess where the fleet were it would be on the edge of the Orion arm of our Galaxy as [http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/7108/fleetnz9.png indicated here]. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 16:39, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
+:::::The zoom out and back in again gives absolutely no clear indication of the true distance between the location of the fleet and Earth. Starbucks viper clearly exploded in Maelstrom so the speculation that her Viper had some kind of advanced FTL drive is just fanwanking, as is stating that she could be a Cylon. Ive watched the zoom out and in bit literally about 20 times trying to work out locations and stuff but its really hard. Just before and just after the wide galaxy shot the glare from the stars fill the screen with brightness so you really can't make any pin pointing. This [[:Image:Locations_in_BSG_galaxy.jpg|rough image]] I made isn't really much help either as we have no idea how much further the fleet has traveled since [[Home, Part II]]. If you'll excuse my fanwanking but if i had to guess where the fleet were it would be on the edge of the Orion arm of our Galaxy as [http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/7108/fleetnz9.png indicated here]. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 16:39, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
 ::::::Vipers don't have FTL at all.  If Starbuck's been to Earth and back as she claims, it's using the technology of the head-leoben people who rescued her.  They are not necessarily Cylon, I don't know who added the text about Cylon tech.   As for the zoom out-in, I watched it frame by frame and it definitely goes in and out in the same spot.  It's not the right spot on a picture of our galaxy, but it's very hard not to read this little sequence, along with Starbuck's claims as the show telling us "Earth is not so far away."  How far we don't know, but it's not super far.   Starbuck tells us Earth is close.  The graphics tell us.  That's the main thing I wanted to document.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:28, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
@@ Line 48: / Line 48: @@
 :::::::We are heading into fanwanking territory and too much speculation again. You might think that Starbuck was rescued by the beings of light or whatever, but that doesn't belong on this page. For our purposes the only technology that exists is either human or Cylon. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:09, 31 March 2007 (CDT)
 ::::::::That's why I didn't write anything about the technology itself, it is just the technology of whatever agents were responsible for her survival.  We don't know who they are.  They aren't colonial.  It doesn't match any Cylon technology either -- it's generally accepted it was not Leoben who guided her.   To speculate on what it is would be a fanwank, but to identify it as unknown and say little about it is proper documentation of what we are shown.   I think to say it is Cylon tech is the fanwank, just as the people who insisted you couldn't be final five if you had been around for more than two years were fanwanking (to negative results) but that's another thread.  :-)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:12, 31 March 2007 (CDT)
-== Type of Nebula ==
-As I understand it (I might be wrong), there are two types of nebula. Both are clouds of dust and similar, but the first type is massive and is the first stage in a star's life sycle. The second is far smaller and comes after a star's supernova. Which of these is likely to apply to the Ionian Nebula?
-I think the second definition is more appropriate because Gaeta says there was a supernova there, and that's why the Colonials go in the first place.  The Colonials also don't have FTL sensors, and it woud be futile to jump to a random location in a standard pre-star nebula and hope you find something.
-But the article says that the nebula is host to a star system with a number of planets. What is the Ionian Nebula more likely to be?--[[User:Isidis|Isidis]] 11:00, 29 December 2007 (CST)
-:Seems someone added the two planets in the zoom-out, which isn't entirely right, as they're a good way outside the nebula. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:41, 29 December 2007 (CST)
-:Good catch Isidis. Actually there are many types of nebulae:
-:*'''Ejection Nebulae''' - Formed by the ejection of materials from low-mass stars in the later stages of their lives (our own sun is a low-mass star, and will become one of these someday).  The gas emits light because it is still hot. Usually referred to as a planetary nebula, but this is a misnomer.
-:*'''Supernova Remnant''' - Same principle, just with a high-mass star.  These stars usually produce a much hotter nebula, and the result is a much longer-lasting nebula, because of the low heat conduction of space.
-:Most gas in the galaxy is created by stars, with a small exception for the small amount of gas still left over from the Big Bang. In the meantime, the gas just floats around the galaxy in streams. The gas itself is usually too cold to emit light, unless it's acted on in some way by a star, through either reflection or ionization:
-:*'''Reflection Nebulae''' - Only visible because light from a nearby star is being reflected against a pocket of gas in a star-forming region, usually in an open cluster.  These are usually blue, because the stars that form in star-forming regions are very massive, and therefore very blue.
-:*'''Dark Nebulae''' - A black nebula, only visible because a dense pocket of cold gas blocks some other light source.  These depend on your perspective, so seeing a dark nebula is a function of your location in the galaxy.
-:*'''Emission Nebulae''' - A dense pocket of gas is ionized by the photons from nearby stars, causing the gas to emit its own photons.  These nebulae are usually red because the act of ionization in this sense is a cooler process.  Most of the light emitted from these nebulae is in the infrared, and for that reason, red is the predominant color in the visible light spectrum.  I think this is the best candidate for the Ionian Nebula.--[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 13:42, 29 December 2007 (CST)