Editing Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot/Archive 1

== Elosha ==

How could Elosha possibly be any kind of replacement for Billy? They played '''together''' in many episodes and it was Tory Foster who replaced Billy as Roslin's aide. --[[User:Spike|Spike]] 02:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
: The lines that Elosha spoke were meant for Billy, but the actor was unavailable. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 02:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
:: Ah, those lines from "The Hub"... Sorry, I didn't catch it's about a single performance only. --[[User:Spike|Spike]] 11:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

== D'Anna's joke to Roslin is a very strong clue ==

Just a note since Serenity removed the note about how D'Anna tells Roslin she is one of the final 5, then says it's ridiculous.  This is about as far from a fanwank as you can get, at least using the criteria of clues I defined.   As noted on the page, there have actually been very few real clues in the show about hidden Cylons.   One of those very few clues was Cavil saying, "I know you're not a Cylon because I'm one and I haven't seen you at the meetings."  Cavil is also joking here, but of course he's not, and this line is very revealing -- Cavil is a Cylon, and so is Tyrol, but he would not have seen Tyrol at the meetings because Tyrol is Final Five.

This is exactly the sort of clue that the writers will throw in.   Throw it in the viewer's face then misdirect them.   It is an overt reference specifically to being the final Cylon, indeed the only one in the script so far.

I laid out 3 types of clues, 2 from within the show.  The first is something beyond human associated with the character.  Things like Tyrol doing very well in Vacuum, or finding the Temple of Five.     The second is dramatic references -- prophecies and forshadowings.  These are real, and are a common type of dramatic clue.   Lines like D'Anna's and Cavil's are close matches.    The sort of clue I meant to exclude is the sort we also see all the time, things like "Dee has put herself close to important figures like Apollo and Billy."    Those aren't the same level of clue because everybody has lots of suspicious maybes about them, there is always going to be some character associated with power.   To be a clue it has to be something out of the ordinary for a human character to do.

So overt references to Cylonhood, especially final-5 hood, are qualified as they can be in my view, so I undid the removal.   (I will note that due to the Last Supper, Roslin is eliminated in most people's views, but while there is a section on her -- as there should be because people want to examine her -- this belongs.) --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 05:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

:It's clearly a joke meant to poke fun at the ridiculous speculation and overanalyzing in fandom. These days everyone is suspected to be a Cylon and the writers know it. Moore has already said that he doesn't want to have Roslin as a Cylon.
:And if there are very few real clues, then the page should contain few clues and not distort lines and events on purpose to create some connection for its own sake. I thought this page was supposed to go away from the useless fanwankery it used to be in the past. But the way some sections of the reboot are developing, it's heading straight back there and the current version is far better. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

::I have to agree with Serenity here. RDM has pretty much removed Roslin from contention as the Last Cylon with his podcast comments, particularly the FrakParty Q&A for Crossroads, and the comments made in the Season 3 companion. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

::Addendum: Also, Roslin is present in the infamous picture. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
::: Yes, she's in the picture.  I decided because there still remains (in spite of official statements) controversy about both the picture and the "four in the fleet" elimination that it was appropriate to collect the clues on those characters, because users of the wiki still will want to study and consider them.  Of course, we must be clear that all the clues listed on the page are wrong, except those for the one Cylon character.   As such, if we are to have a section on Roslin -- a section for those eliminated by the external sources -- this joke is about as strong as clues get.   Knowing it's a joke doesn't alter that.  Cavil was also joking when he said he was a Cylon.  That's how dramatic, rather than physical clues work.  Strange turns of phrase.  A similar example is the picture of Ellen Tigh with the big red glowing eye.   That's not a physical clue, it's the writers playing tricks on us (if it turns out to be true.)   Writer tricks are definitely clues.    Worth documenting in a page like this, anyway.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
:Let me add another explanation of why I think this is not a borderline case.  When the final Cylon is revealed, there will be things from the show that will make us say, "Ah, of course!"  The writers knew what they were doing when they wrote any line about the final Cylon that was special.  So for each clue, ask the question, will it obviously be something the writers put in to hint at us?   Again, for all but one character, the clue will be false or mean something else, but for the one real winner it will be clear.   So if, in spite of the last supper picture etc. it is Roslin, I think it's fair to say we would all say "how can we not have caught that D'Anna flat out told us Roslin is F5, then pretended to be joking?"  It would in fact become the most overt clue -- if she turns out to be the final Cylon.  I thus feel it's inappropriate not to document it.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

== Let's take it live ==

Anybody have more to add before making this the live article?   What is the procedure for replacing an article anyway?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
:I'd suggest we wait a bit. There is probably both stuff that can be added from the current article, as well as fanwank to be removed from the new version. As I already indicated, I personally don't like how minuscule things are sometimes over-analyzed, blown out of proportion and presented as major clues. But I don't have the time to go through the articles at the moment. Tomorrow evening at the earliest. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is a "speculation" article, and by definition almost all the clues will be wrong, so you are not going to avoid everything that would be called fanwanking in a non-speculation article, nor would you want to.   I think the right approach is to document all the concrete things that appear out of the ordinary, being fairly liberal about that.  What you try to keep out is stuff that's just in people's imaginations.   If it's a real event in the show, and there are reasonable people who feel it's out of the ordinary enough to be a clue, I say document it, even if other people don't think it is.

I even say document what has been refuted.  First of all, some refutations turn out to be wrong, and secondly people don't realize they are refuted and thus try to add them.   Thus the entry about how Gaeta stabs Baltar over some dark secret, but there is an explanation in the podcast.

The one line I felt made sense to draw was to realize that most of the characters are important enough that a behind-the-scenes puppet master might want to be in their position.   The primary fanwank of the prior articles was stuff like, "This character is in the middle of things" or "we haven't seen this character's parents" or so on.

The job of this page is to help readers understand what potential clues exist.  Again, most of the clues are wrong, by definition.  When the final Cylon is revealed, ideally we should be able to go to this list and say, "Yes, we spotted those clues that are now obvious to all in hindsight."    If we missed clues, because some saw significance and others didn't, they the page failed in the clue-documenting job that is its purpose.   If we added clues that turned out to be incorrect, the page has not failed the job.

I've put most of the clues on this page through this filter.   There are a few exceptions, which I could see argument for removing, and I will list here why they are there:

Ellen's sudden appearance out of nowhere -- we don't know how many characters got on the fleet, but her arrival is the most suspicious of all, and more to the point, how suspicious it was played a major role in the plot.

Tyrol's unpaired position in Last Supper -- this one is strained, but there are so many Cally boosters I felt it appropriate.

Cain and Shaw -- these needs for redemption are far stronger than average, and frankly there's not much else for these characters.
(Shaw is almost ruled out now anyway.)

Dualla being an Adama (is a Cylon) -- again, the Dualla fans keep bringing this up.

The rest I don't think are borderline at all.

== Couple of things I can confirm ==

I can support Ron's statement that the "Last Cylon" is '''NOT''' in that motherfrakking horrible PR piece known as "[[The Last Supper]]" picture, so we can remove all those candidates. (This also makes D'Anna's joke a joke, and not some "super secret clue, dawg".) So... chop, chop. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:21, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
: You've lost me Joe.  If you have yet more confirmation that the final Cylon is not in the photo, it seems to me that it's important to note that we know this and reference the photo, rather than remove reference to it.  Otherwise the page saying that all those characters are eliminated makes little sense to people as it doesn't cite why.   I would also leave in the notes that it's possible that the Baltar and Caprica Six shown in the photo could be either the real beings or the virtual beings who appear as them, as that could alter people's judgement on who is eliminated or not.   And what is your additional confirmation?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 06:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 49: / Line 49: @@
 The rest I don't think are borderline at all.
-:Any minor flaws this version may have pale in comparison to those of the article it will be replacing, so I say take it live.  it will be much easier to discuss and improve once the move is complete.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 16:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 == Couple of things I can confirm ==
@@ Line 56: / Line 54: @@
 I can support Ron's statement that the "Last Cylon" is '''NOT''' in that motherfrakking horrible PR piece known as "[[The Last Supper]]" picture, so we can remove all those candidates. (This also makes D'Anna's joke a joke, and not some "super secret clue, dawg".) So... chop, chop. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:21, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 : You've lost me Joe.  If you have yet more confirmation that the final Cylon is not in the photo, it seems to me that it's important to note that we know this and reference the photo, rather than remove reference to it.  Otherwise the page saying that all those characters are eliminated makes little sense to people as it doesn't cite why.   I would also leave in the notes that it's possible that the Baltar and Caprica Six shown in the photo could be either the real beings or the virtual beings who appear as them, as that could alter people's judgement on who is eliminated or not.   And what is your additional confirmation?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 06:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
-== What's in the way of taking this page live? ==
-I mean the existing old page is way out of date, and we're getting close to the revelation.   I linked to the non-live page on my blog because I didn't want it to vanish after building it, but if folks here don't want to take this page live before the show airs, let me know and I will move it to my own site and not worry about it here.