Editing Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive3

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== Archived Page ==

I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Romo Lampkin's entry ==

I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Statement on Death ==

I have changed the following line:

<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote>

The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if  she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== All Males Should Be In Low Probability ==

I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....".   Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Major Revision Needed ==

I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==

OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.

But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1.   Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway.   Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK.  Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there.   Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will.   (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)

Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==

While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation.  You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet.  Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.

Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later.  Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:

*Boomer herself
*[[D'Anna Biers]]
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol
*[[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Tory Foster]]
*[[Galen Tyrol]]

You'll notice this totals to six.  Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver.  Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.

As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well.  I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing.   Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5.  #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest.  I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

== article reboot ==

Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.)  I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show.  That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries.   Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.

This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking."  Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven.   They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation.  My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed,  but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here.  I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined.  I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination.  One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.

I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions.  The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation.  Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")

(There are other approaches too.  For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==

Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page.  The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon.  Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) 
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

== Laura Roslin ==

As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}
: This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:: But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::: RDM saying he knows who the final Cylon is happened at roughly the same time as him saying Adama and Roslin weren't Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:: I have not listened to the whole podcast, but I heard part where he said he ruled out Roslin and Adama, and that was referring to who the 4 revealed Cylons would be, not about who the 5th one is.  Did he say it again at a later point in the podcast?  If not, I count this as strong evidence against Adama and Roslin but not an absolute rule-out.  He likes to equivocate on these things, remember.  It could very well be that he said that Roslin would not make sense (as one of the 4) because she's already planned as the 5th, for example.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:::From the Sci Fi forums:
::::QUOTE
:::::Do you already know who the fifth cylon of the final five is? If so, '''have you already left us some clues'''?
::::Yes and '''yes'''.
::::Ron
:::So not only does RDM already know, he also left clues in Season 3. This was posted March 26 2007 (the day after the finale aired). [http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/04/04/bsg-podcast-recap-battlestar-galactica-frak-party-qanda/ On TV Squad] we have:
::::Posted Apr 4th 2007 3:49PM by Keith McDuffee
::::(...)
::::While we await Ron Moore's commentary podcast for Battlestar's season finale, we were treated '''yesterday''' to a Q&A podcast between Moore, his wife and several fans at a viewing party in Berkley, CA.
:::So the frak party podcast was released on April 3rd (one week after the finale), and that's the podcast in which he says (paraphrasing) "there were two people we didn't want to make Cylons: Roslin and Adama". He also says this when discussing his choices for the Fantastic Four. I think that pretty much rules out Roslin and Adama as Cylons, although if you're still not satisfied yet, you can of course always [[BW:OC|ask Brad]] to be sure. 
--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:49, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::::His words are "We didn't want Eddie, that would rob something from the show, didn't want Mary."  I will need to go back and transcribe the surrounding dialogue, because as I said, he likes to equivocate about surprises.  (He says he never lied about Starbuck, only equivocated.)  I just want all the folks who were sure beyond a doubt that Tigh was no Cylon to be careful when you think you're sure!--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::This exactly what I was getting at. Revealing Roslin as a cylon at that point would take something from the series, but having the revelation late in the possibly-final series would not... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:26, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::I'm working on transcribing the Q&A podcast, which I hope to complete over the course of next week. By then we'll have RDM's literal words and the context black on white (or white on black actually).--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 06:01, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

== Serpents Two and Ten ==

Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:Nah, 2 and 10 means 2+10, 12. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:57, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::Are you sure that's all it means? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
:The analysis for the episode is [[The Hand of God (RDM)|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::I've read it and it doesn't really answer my question --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
:"Serpents Two and Ten" could refer either to the twelve serpents Roslin saw, or to the twelve Vipers in Strike Force Two attacking the Cylon base in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Those are (IMO) the most likely explanations. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 06:00, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
:It's "serpents ''numbering'' two and ten" if that helps. Thats just how you say numbers in olde-prophecy language really... [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:07, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
::I don't doubt that ''sometimes'' it means twelve, I was just wondering if it had a double meaning. {{unsigned|SSH}}
:::To get back to your original theory, the identities of the final five (all five of them) were only decided on when Season 3 started to be written. Anything in Season 1 or 2 that looks like a reference to their Cylonness is coincidental. Although there are [[Talk:Final Five#Ironies and references|plenty]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:37, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
::::It's still possible that some of those coincidences in the first two seasons influenced the later decision. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:54, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

== Another possible rule? ==

RDM said that there were clues left all through 3rd season as to who the final cylon was.  Which implies that they were heavily present in the third season, or at least heavily mentioned.  You can't leave clues about a character who never comes up.

This unfortunately doesn't rule out any of the most likely candidates, but I would still say that it's a valid point, especially considering that it's not hinged on any assumptions beyond what RDM said himself, and we really don't have much to go on.

Thoughts?  -[[User:Waxwings|Waxwings]] 16:36, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
:Well, crap. I guess that rules out [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] after all... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:37, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
:What's your source for "clues left all through?"  I just know the interview where he said yes, he had picked the final Cylon and yes there were clues.  Not that they were widespread.  Was there another interview?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:00, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
::According to the [[Podcast:Frak Party Q and A|Frak Party podcast]] the decision was made while they were discussing the season 3 finale. I can't find the interview where it was stated that there's hints about the last Cylon, I believe that RDM only stated that there are hints in the third season, without saying anything about their frequency. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:29, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Oh, well then I guess I'm not as clever as I though.  =/  I guess I was remembering wrong.  It still does rule out characters who didn't appear at all third season, but I don't suppose that's much help.  --[[User:Waxwings|Waxwings]] 18:53, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

== Deletion status ==

This article is still tagged as a deletion candidate. I think it's been reworked enough by now too warrant a keep. The Season 3 cliffhanger notice is probably outdated as well. What's the sitrep on reworking this article? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:46, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
:Yeah, the deletion tag can be removed. But the Season 3 notice is still valid, since the cliffhanger hasn't been resolved. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:24, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
::True. I'll do a major cleanup on this one later tonight. The Starbuck section is a mess, and the Dualla section is not yet Final Five-aware. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup>
:::I've looked at it again, and the cleanup tag itself is indeed unnecessary after the cleanup. But the content of the article is still highly speculative due to the uncertain natures of "Crossroads". So a general note about that would be useful. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:02, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

== Cleanup ==

I have done a [{{fullurl:Humanoid Cylon speculation|diff=125476&oldid=120079}} major cleanup] on this article, which included:
* Slightly rewording the qualifiers for suspicion
* Putting the qualifiers in subsections
* Severely rewording and concising the sections about Starbuck and Baltar. All pre-Torn and pre-XR2 references are gone.
* Scrapping all other sections (Dualla, Gaeta, Seelix and Lampkin) entirely (for now), as there don't really seem like good suspects to me post-XR2. You are free to re-add these sections if you have evidence supporting their suspicion. The old version of the article can be found [{{fullurl:Humanoid Cylon speculation|oldid=120079}} here].

As I've written (and rewritten) entire paragraphs here (something I very rarely do), I recommend that [[User:Spencerian|someone]] someone take a good look at this cleanup of mine and tweak it where necessary. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 13:55, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
== "Death" qualifier ==

I find the "Death" section under "Needed Qualifiers" to be rather confusing.  It starts out by claiming that only humanoid Cylons can return from the dead, which is rather a dubious claim considering Starbuck's return; it's far from certain that she is the final Cylon.  It also claims that no dead character could possibly return to the show as the final Cylon, yet I don't see why this would be true at all.  In fact, on the [[Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Reboot|Reboot]] version of this page, both characters listed are dead characters.  It also references [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]], but that article doesn't address the issue at all, or even list any "dead" characters as eliminated from suspicion.

Since Starbuck's return applies only to her very special case, it would make more sense just to describe her return as a possible indication that she is a Cylon, and remove the section entirely.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 15:29, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

:We can only go, when no other data is available, on what we know. The reboot page is filled with some specious arguments, some use unaired information, such as on [[Joseph Adama]], that are fanwanking since ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' is unlikely to air (per [[Ron D. Moore]]'s wife). The logic that the original page gives is, "If a Cylon, they can return." The reboot article also revives [[Helena Cain]], although no such revival is taking place. The special episode ''[[Razor]]'' takes place in the ''past'', and this article assumes she returns by surprise, which no episode information supports; by that logic, ''any dead human character'' could return. Why would Cain be so special?

:I apologize for the confusion, Hylas. It's important that Battlestar Wiki never becomes a [[BW:CJ|source unto itself]], especially when it comes to the allowed, sourced original research we call here "[[BW:CJ#Derived Content|derived content]]" (which is the reason this article exists). I have not noted the content of this article before, else I would have made issue of it since myself and other [[BW:AN|administrators]] here are responsible for insuring articles stay sourced and (not or) plausible. I will be marking this article for major cleanup and striking the information that is not germane, replacing it with what is known, officially, and exploring the clues that Ron Moore has given in the series as to the identity of the last Cylon. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:00, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

::It's the importance of sourced researched that forms the foundation of my objections to the section.  As it is currently written, the section is specious, self-contradictory, and contains two significant unsourced claims:
::*''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead...'' - We don't know that this is true.  (If it were, it would imply Starbuck must be the final Cylon.)
::*''...any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion.'' - This conclusion does not follow in any logical manner from the first half of the sentence.  On what basis can we categorically rule out the possibility of a dead character returning?  While there is certianly no reason to expect that Cain, Joseph Adama, Elosha, or any other dead character ''will'' return as the final cylon, we have absolutely no basis for saying that it absolutely ''won't'' happen. 
::If we remove the problematic first sentence, we are left with a statement that a character returning from the dead might possibly be a Cylon, which really doesn't say anything, and contradicts claim made in the first part of the first sentence.  The implications of Starbuck's return from apparent death can be discussed in the section relating specifically to her.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 19:20, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
:::Saying that someone returning from the dead greatly increases their odds to be the last Cylon sounds good to me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 02:19, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Well, first off, I'm not a fan of Starbuck's return in the first place, as it does fly in the face of all reason. Otherwise the note makes perfect sense. This isn't fantasy and dead humans need to stay dead. Starbuck should really be the one exception to this and they need to find a good explanation for her return (like that she didn't really die in the first place). Saying that humans characters can return from the dead at will, doesn't make any sense.
:::Either we do what Catrope says, or we make an explicit exception for Starbuck, as we don't really know what happened to her. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:02, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
::::''This isn't fantasy and dead humans need to stay dead.'' - But dead Cylons don't.  Why would we assume that a character can't possibly be a Cylon, just because we have seen that character die?  I can think of several plausible scenarios for a dead character being revealed as the Final Cylon.  Perhaps none would be sufficiently well-supported to add to the article, but there's no reason that dead characters as a class should be categorically dismissed.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 10:25, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

:::::Technically, it doesn't say that dead characters can't be Cylons. It says that they shouldn't be considered Cylons ''unless'' they somehow return from the dead (which is why Starbuck is valid to speculate about). That was done to reduce the ridiculous amount of speculation that went on here. There is really no reason to suppose that any of the dead characters is a Cylon. They might be Cylons, but we have nothing to go on, until one of them shows up again through resurrection. I think that distinction is really the core of the problem here. You think the page states that dead characters can't be Cylons at all, which isn't really the case. They just shouldn't be considered Cylons - or Cylon candidates - per se for the purpose of the article. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:35, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

::::::''They just shouldn't be considered Cylons - or Cylon candidates...'' - That seems to be a very arbitrary editorial decision to me.  As a hypothetical, let's say that a growing mountain of evidence is introduced in Season 4 pointing towards Elosha being a copy of the the final Cylon model.  Why wouldn't we consider her to be a Cylon candidate just because she is dead?--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 11:08, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

: Let me add to this conversation, because I feel that we need to address the whole "dead" criterion. The reason such a criteria exists is clearly due to the fact that anyone who has died could easily be a Cylon, which is, on some level, true. Otherwise this page should just as well say that "anyone can be a Cylon, except Helo and Cally because they're parents of known hybrid offspring". However, we need to be realistic here; there's one Cylon left, and clearly the rules for the Final Five are different than the Significant Seven. Also, given the hints that RDM's given in interviews, it is already someone we know. But to specify who's a Cylon and why out of a whole bunch of people who've ever been seen on screen (and also died), which seems to an assumed discussion point from my POV, is just too much for even an article. 

: Given that problem, I believe the page should be retooled to specify who isn't (or is ''least'' likely to be) a member of the Final Five. That would give us the smaller number and would be more to our benefit. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 11:40, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

::''The reason such a criteria exists is clearly due to the fact that anyone who has died could easily be a Cylon.'' - Certainly, I think we should be very strict in terms of the level of supporting evidence that should be required, and at this point I don't think there are any dead characters that have a strong enough case to warrant inclusion.  I'm just saying there could be in the future, so they shouldn't be disqualified from consideration.
::In terms of retooling, I'd be in favour of removing any sort of conclusions as to the high or low likeliness of a character being a Cylon.  We could, for example, simply state that Starbuck has apparently returned from the dead, and that Ron Moore said he didn't want Adama or Roslin to be a Cylon, leaving the reader to draw conclusions from that evidence.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 12:21, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
:::That's something I can agree with. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 14:41, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
== Kara Thrace ==

According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

But, since [[Kara Thrace]] reappeared in [[Crossroads, Part II]], this adds more evidence that Thrace is a Cylon. It is possible that she is human, that she has discovered a method of human "Resurrection", but this is a highly dubious possibility. There is also a note on this page noting a section in the Battlestar Galactica Season Three Gag Reel where Katee Sackoff says herself that Starbuck is a Cylon and that she really dies in Maelstrom. We'll just have to see what happens in Season Four! --[[User:Stltcom|Stltcom]] 23:07, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
== Major re-write ==

I'm in the process of completely re-writing this article to bring it up to date with season 3. In particular, I'm removing any assessment or grouping into "moderate" or "low" probability but, for each leading character listing reasons for suspicion and reasons for doubt and letting the reader decide. Any ideas on what this article needs, now would be a good time to suggest. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 15:17, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
:Erm, are you working on an old version? This was already done a while ago. All the fanwankery and excessive speculation was finally removed. Some with the probabilities, which were really silly. Anyways, now the article only lists Starbuck and Baltar, who are the most likely suspects. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:34, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
::I'm working on assesing the whole "human" central cast, although its immediately clear who are the biggest suspects. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 15:48, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
:::The page was specifically cleansed to get rid of all the excessive speculation about everyone. This has been discussed on the talk page. Also see [[Characters eliminated from suspicion‎]] for why Helo and Cally Tyrol can't be Cylons and why the Adamas and Roslin probably aren't (has real-world reasons though). Baltar already has his [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|own article]]. Starbuck is mentioned here. So that's everyone covered. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:52, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
:OK, done it. Hope you like. I've limited the scope to the central characters (because "Oh, [[Hot Dog]]'s the Cylon" would be pretty much an anticlimax). I think this is clearer and more organised than before, and allows us to demonstrate why certain characters are unlikely to be Cylons, rather than not talking about them. I have NOT included

{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Frak Party Q and A|act=|id=adamaroslin|timestamp=15:57|totalrunning=78:27}}

because I think it is clear from the context that RDM was discussing Bill and Laura being revealed as part of the ''four'' in [[Crossroads, Part II]]. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 16:37, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

::Don't take this personally, but I don't. The old article was way better IMHO. Granted, it outsourced the eliminated characters to another page, which could be done away with maybe. But while your article is factually correct (*) with the pro and cons for everyone, I found the old one read more interestingly, because it was complete text and not just a list of a bullet points. That gave you the pointers to draw your own conclusions and links to pursue further indications.
::What yours has going for it is that it doesn't just rely on out-of-universe sources for the Adamas and Roslin, but the sacrifices for that are too high. I'd rather have the "eliminated characters" article edited to include those points, but restore this one. But I'm just one person, so don't be discouraged. Some other people can weigh in too. But with an article has hotly contested as this one - see talk pages - you should have solicited some feedback ''before'' editing. Also because it could have saved you work.
:::(*) Except for some things like Adama in "[[A Day in the Life]]". That is '''not''' projection, but a stylistic choice to show his inner monologue  --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:53, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
::I more or less agree with Serenity. While you bring up some nice points in your revamped version of the page, it is just a bunch of bullet points. Text, like in the old version, is a much more comfortable read. ---[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 01:13, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

== Projection is a form of daydreaming ==

To be honest, the differences between "projecting" and "daydreaming" are sufficiently blurred here, since it's really the same thing. Also, it's really had to tell the difference between both, particularly in the Adama's case, so I'm not entirely sure of how we should approach that here. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 17:01, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
:Yeah. Bill Adama's "projection" was weak, so I've removed it. The problem is, I can't think of any other plausible reason for suspicion. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 17:07, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
:We already have it as non-projection on [[Virtual beings#Notes]]. I know that some people are crazy about anything that looks like Cylons, but I never saw it as anything but Adama's inner musings and imagination. Sure, it goes beyond what one might expect, but he doesn't really have any dialogues with his wife. She talks a lot and for me that works perfectly fine as a representation of Adama's thoughts and him re-hashing things his wife told him over the years. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:10, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
::I think that anything which could be projection is something which could be a hint. A single hallucination is weak evidence, since all five of the characters on the list have hallucinated and only one of them can be a Cylon, but it adds to the other evidence. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:42, 6 November 2007 (CST)

== Current Form ==

Whoever conceived of the current form of this page, I give you a standing ovation. Brilliant. I love the layout. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:53, 5 November 2007 (CST)
:It would be better by incorporating the Baltar and Thrace sections of the [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&diff=127811&oldid=127642 old version] at the start, since those are the most important and just read more interestingly than mere bullet points. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:22, 6 November 2007 (CST)
== Season 4 spoilers ==

According to [http://roadrunnerdm.livejournal.com/84288.html this blog entry], Kara Thrace believes she is a Cylon, but Katee Sackhoff believes otherwise. Should this be mentioned in the article, or is it too vague? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:25, 27 November 2007 (CST)

I've included it in a spoiler box. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 06:06, 29 November 2007 (CST)

== Bullet points > text ==

Converted the bullet points to more readable text. I've also added a section for [[Virtual beings]] which is my favourite theory at the moment. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 05:57, 29 November 2007 (CST)
:Thanks. Looks much better now. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:52, 29 November 2007 (CST)
== Entertainment Weekly article ==

[http://community.livejournal.com/battlestar_blog/814818.html#cutid1 Entertainment Weekly #973] has an article that can be used for the speculation.

Refering to no. 10 of this article, all persons on the picture are either humans or cylons - The last cylon is not on the picture; its seat is empty. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 20:27, 5 January 2008 (CST)

:Interesting.  Perhaps in light of this (however slight) evidence to the contrary, the paragraph beginning "In terms of narrative, to prevent an anti-climax..." should be removed.  It's too speculative; there are many ways to make the reveal dramatic.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 22:38, 7 January 2008 (CST)

::Okay, that leaves Cottle, Dualla, Gaeta, Hot Dog, Racetrack, Seelix and Zarek. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:26, 8 January 2008 (CST)
:::And Cally.--[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 00:49, 8 January 2008 (CST)
::::Only if [[Nicholas Tyrol]] being ''half'' Cylon was a half-truth like Kara Thrace getting killed off. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:28, 8 January 2008 (CST)

:::It could also be something entirely out of left field, like a dead character or a previously unseen character.  It's impossible to predict what the writers have planned.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 13:22, 8 January 2008 (CST)

::::RDM does not come out and say this, he just comments that the magazine is clever to notice that.  Since "who is the final Cylon" is one of the big mysteries of the show, if not the big mystery of the show, I think it's safe to say that as he did with Starbuck's "death" that RDM has no problem lying or equivocating when asked point blank questions on the matter, or even if not asked them.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 19:05, 10 January 2008 (CST)

:::::I definitely concur with Brad here. RDM's comments are in keeping with how he deals with these sort of revelations being unveiled before the episode airs. He was particularly protective and misleading in his DS9 days as well, which is something that most people tend to forget. Regardless, I'm happy that Aaron Douglas pretty much knocked the wings out of the whole EW picture speculation. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 19:36, 10 January 2008 (CST)
== In need of some major revamping ==

The speculation of the final humanoid Cylon is definitely a hot topic for Season 4, so I'd imagine this page will be getting a decent bit of traffic. In light of that, I think in it's current state it's pretty lacking, considering the fact that, if the EW bit is to be believed, only one of the characters listed on this page could be the final Cylon. I know that article was dismissed a bit earlier in this discussion, but I think that was done a bit too hastily, particularly after Ron Moore's additional comments in his interview with Mo Ryan in the Chicago Tribune [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/04/ron-moore-on-ba.html] and the fact that, say what you want about RDM not being there to personally "direct" the picture or what not, Leonardo's The Last Supper features 13 people and BSG's last supper only features 12, despite BSG having, well, an abundance of cast to go around. Anyhow, I'm not saying we even have to remove the characters in the picture, but there's definetely room for a lot more speculation. -- [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 22:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
== Odd Coincidence ==

I was discussing the Fantastic Four with a friend of mine when we realized that each of the Four have a name that begins with a "T": Saul '''T'''igh, '''T'''ory Foster, Galen '''T'''yrol, and Samuel '''T'''. Anders.  On that nome, if the Final Cylon follows the same pattern, it seems that Starbuck (Kara '''T'''hrace) would move to the top of list.  [[User:AarrowOM|AarrowOM]] 04:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
: I wouldn't put too much stock in ''that'' theory. (I've read a lot of crazy, off-the-wall theories. Frankly, if you look at something long enough, you can find a "pattern" in almost anything; like glorified inkblots.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 14:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
== To <s>quote</s> paraphrase Bill Pullman from ''ID4''... "Let's nuke the bastard." ==

To offer a different perspective from ColonelKevin's point, I think this article really needs to be airlocked and approached in a completely different light. I've really felt this way from the get go, but my feelings are reinforced by the fact that this is the last and final season, and the article will then enter a state of total and complete obsolescence, particularly from an "out of universe perspective". 

What I am proposing is that the article be written to detail "in universe" Cylon speculation and how they've dealt with the threat of Cylons looking human. I'm looking at documenting the overall human reaction to this, which would include things like [[Sesha Abinell]]'s conspiracy theories, the Colonials attempts at a Cylon detector, the Fleet leadership's concerns about releasing the information before "[[Litmus]]", etc. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:I think it's "Nuke 'em. Let's nuke the bastards.". And.. I agree. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:: You're right, Mr. Quotables... I meant "paraphrasing". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Seems like a good idea. From what I can infer, most, if not all, of the in-universe early-S4 speculation will be on Starbuck, so we might need to decide where we draw the lines between this article, [[Kara Thrace]] and [[The Destiny]]. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 00:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:I agree somewhat. We know that many people love this speculation and the survey also shows that some people expect it here. But IMHO, it's just inane and verges on the annoying. There are so many fan theories floating around out there, it's flat out impossible to reflect even a good part of it. The problem is also, that what started out as interesting and ''grounded'' speculation, has deteriorated into complete bullshit by now, also due to the introduction of the Final Five. Especially with the latter, we can't really know which criteria even imply for potential cylonicity. In that regard, I've always felt that this wiki is a place for fact, analysis and some well-founded speculation here and there; and that complete speculation - like this - is a matter for forums. There are dozens of forums with endless threads of Final Five speculation, so why does this have to be rehashed on a wiki?
:That said, the article has finally approached a state where it's readable and worthy of the wiki, by excising most of the specious speculation and concentrating on a few likely characters. However, as Joe said, its validity in light of the upcoming revelations - and also the uncertain basis for the arguments - is somewhat questionable. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
::While I do think it's possible to do a speculation page properly, there's no doubt that it's a huge task to produce one that's relatively grounded and well sourced, particularly considering how just about anyone could be the final cylon. It's hard to say if such a task is really worth the effort. If I had to chose between leaving the page as it is now or nuking it, I'd definetely say nuke it. Maybe take the best bits (the comment from Bradley Thompson and the Hybird prophecy, maybe the last supper picture, none of the speculation) and just place it on the section for the Final Cylon on the Humanoid Cylon article? -- [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 16:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I think collecting the pro/anti cylon clues for the characters is worthwhile.  But perhaps it should be just done as two sets of bullet points per character -- reasons why, and why not they could be a Cylon.  Tell people to stick to itemizing information from canon/official, leave it to the reader to judge what it means.   Then add one broad section on non-character specific information (like the last supper etc.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

This article used to be a load of bullet points, but people didn't like that so we changed it to its current state. Despite writing about half of the article as it stands, I'm not a big fan of it. The problem is mainly with the in-universe clues, someone, somewhere will have some reason why pretty much any arbitrary scene means some character being a Cylon. There are some relatively good things to consider [Baltar's hallucinations, Starbuck's return from the dead], but eventually you have to draw the line somewhere [Some people take Leoben saying "Adama's a Cylon" as a clue, is that justified?]. It's all terribly subjective and messy and not really for an encyclopaedia. Having a comprehensive coverage of fan speculation is both impossible and undesirable. 

I think the best thing about the article is that it stopped speculation spilling into other parts of the Wiki. An '''in'''-universe look at the issue would be better, and probably quite pertinent for season 4. Nevertheless, fan speculation on who is and isn't a Cylon has been an important part of the viewing experience (whenever I meet a Galactica fan the fisrt question I always ask is "Who do you think the last Cylon is?")

Consequently, it is worth considering if we can find a way to cover, out-of-universe, that element of the viewing experience in an encyclopaedic manner without necessarily joining in. At the very least we could include a line like: "Since the outset of the show fans have speculated on who could be a Cylon. Theories for practically every character exist, with fans drawing justification from  events in both aired content and comments from cast and crew."

Also we need to consider what happens to [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]], which is a very detailed essay, but probably not encyclopaedic. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:So, what's the plan? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 23:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, as you noted, the problem is that we'll never be able to cover fan theories in an encyclopedic format... Fan theories are really a dime a dozen, and to cover even 10% of them would be extremely biased. It seems quite apparent to me that the best bet would be to put the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]] page to pasture, and redo the "humanoid Cylon speculation" page from an in-universe perspective, as I had suggested. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:::What do you have in mind exactly? There isn't really any in-universe speculation for the final Cylon, expect for Baltar, which is covered in the other article. I guess we could cover the entire series and list people who were suspects at one time, which would be Boomer, Cmd. Adama, Ellen Tigh and Tyrol I guess. Maybe some more, but not a lot, and not really that interesting as it's common knowledge. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm more interested in how the humans have grappled with identifying "who's a Cylon?" throughout the series then the search for the "Last Cylon", which I really don't find that interesting. When all is said and done, finding out "who's a Cylon" isn't as interesting as people make it out to be. So, as I've stated before: 
::::"What I am proposing is that the article be written to detail 'in universe' Cylon speculation and how they've dealt with the threat of Cylons looking human. I'm looking at documenting the overall human reaction to this, which would include things like [[Sesha Abinell]]'s conspiracy theories, the Colonials attempts at a Cylon detector, the Fleet leadership's concerns about releasing the information before '[[Litmus]]', etc." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, covering all that would be good and goes beyond the tired "who is a Cylon?" guessing. I agree that that's way overrated. Good TV in general isn't so much about what happens as how it affects the characters. I didn't know you wanted to go into that direction, which is why I asked. A different article name might be appropriate then, though. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::With the addition of "one will be revealed" as the core of the main titles, I have to say I differ.  It seems remiss not to have a page collecting the clues to what the producers themselves have declared is the central event and mystery of the season.   And there's a lot of material around this -- the debate over the last supper page, various official statements etc.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I've drafted a rebooting of this article, sticking to canonical clues with minimal speculation.  The word "could" barely appears.  What's the best way to introduce the new article?  Created a rebooted page and later rename it if people like it?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
: Yeah, you can create a rebooted version of the page... We can always rename it later. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
: Create it as subpage of this article. Like [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot]] -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

With the in-show revelation that the final Cylon is not in the fleet (at least according to Three), Ron Moore's comment about the final Cylon not being in the picture seems to have been given much more credence.  That would seem to suggest profound implications for this page, which is premised around a major character being the most likely revelation.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 00:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

== Karl ==

We were actually told that Hera and Nicky '''are''' hybrid children by Mr Moore (and Baltar tests Hera's blood for her hybrid nature in [[Epiphanies]]), hence Karl (and Cally) are definitely humans. This is unless RDM is just plain lying to us, which is quite possible. Nevertheless, I have a little faith, so I'm going to revert this edit.

Oh, yeah, weren't we planning to completely overhaul this article anyway? -- 09:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

: Yeah, but go ahead and revert it. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

== New theory about the final one: Benjamin "Ben" Linus from Lost ==

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=15994&postcount=280 (posted into forum as suggested)

{{unsigned|Karamanthos}}

: Hi there, Karamanthos! If I might make a suggestion, you're better off adding your theories to the [http://www.battlestarforum.com Battlestar Forum]. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 02:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

== The Hybrids ==

It's a bit of a stretch, but they seem to meet most of the criteria.
*There are no Hybrids in the fleet.
*[[Tiffany Lyndall-Knight]] was not in the [[The Last Supper|Last Supper image]].
*They are definitely Cylons.
*They don't have a model number.
*Redemption can mean either atonement or liberation.
*They are arguably "still in shadow".
*The "howl of terrible suffering" could refer to how the Hybrid screamed before becoming lucid in [[Faith]].
*The Hybrids played a significant role in leading the Colonials and Cylons to Earth.
There are, however, a few problems.
*The Hybrids coming from Earth seems like a stretch.
*Although we don't know how long the Hybrid concept has been around, the Hybrids weren't introduced until early season 3, and IIRC they decided on the identity of the final Cylon in season 2.
Is there enough evidence to include the Hybrids under ''others''? What about under ''more esoteric theories''? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think "more esoteric theories" is quite applicable here. The purpose of the section is to list some of the more out-of-the-box ideas that people might have. I think it would be best to simply state it, rather than include the justification above, else the section will get cluttered (like the rest of the article). [[User:OTW|OTW]] 00:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

== Article [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|rebooted]] ==

Ok, so I've written up a reboot of the article based on the information presented in "[[Revelations]]". That can be located [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. If there aren't any major objections I'd like to move the reboot to the main article space no later than the end of this week. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:Looks good :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::Definitely an improvement.  I don't know that I'd privilege the final cylon being on the basestar as a "main theory" above some of the other options like dead or unseen characters returning as the final cylon.  It seems very unlikely to me that Three's words can be taken so literally, and implausible that she completely ignored a Final Five cylon already on the basestar.  Debate over minor issues like that can wait until after the article is rebooted, however.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
::: True. Obviously, I have no problem with people modifying it for other speculation, such as dead characters or the like.  The last permutations of this article went completely overboard, IMHO, and I really want to restrict that here as much as humanly possible. (Or at least find a balance between the two extremes.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Looks fine to me, too. The esoteric section is a bit "blogish", however. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
: While an improvement, it gives too much attention to Boomer (who is largely ruled out by D'Anna's declaration to Cavil that "There are five OTHER Cylons, Brother") and not enough attention to the dead characters, who seem to be all that is left.   Now, I agree the article should focus only on real clues, and not "suspicious circumstances" and "wouldn't it be cool ifs" I do have a [http://ideas.4brad.com/battlestar/what-minor-character-final-cylon speculative article which you might find useful as source material on the dead characters].   Actual true clues (at the level of Tyrol's compulsion to seek the temple or his superior response to being spaced) of the sort we've seen before are few and far between, yet RDM promises they are there.  Yet we see none for non-eliminated characters--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 06:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::That post is a very interesting read, Bradtem, and could I think be adapted to wiki-article form with very little revision.  
::Another way to go with this article, which is looking better to me all the time, would be to limit it to providing background information - everything from the rebooted article up to and including "General Factors for Consideration" - but not including any specific theories.  As Bradtem points out, there is really very little to base plausible speculation on.  The options all seem equally unlikely: a dead returning to the bewilderment of most viewers?  Number Three having some hidden reason to ignore the fifth's presence on the basestar or in the fleet?  A special copy of a Cylon model?  A completely new character being offered as a satisfactory conclusion to a series-long mystery in the final episode?  
::I actually have faith in the writers' narrative abilities to pull off any of the above, and to do so well, but I don't think at this point we have enough information to make plausible guesses as to what they ''will'' do.  It's all "More esoteric ideas" at this point.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 22:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:::And that is the problem.  RDM has told us he's left clues, and he did -- for characters now eliminated by him.  All that stuff in the draft article is "could be" style speculation -- as is also the case with my post linked to above.  Right now it may be that all an article can do is list the general clues (specific, dramatic or offscreen), most of which eliminate characters.  The stuff about Boomer is not only another round of "isn't this suspicious" that can be applied to almost any character, but goes against two elimination clues.  Right now I am hard pressed to come up with actual clues on the order of the ones I cite above for Tyrol.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Sadly, this is the problem... you've nailed it right on the head. If I may be blunt, RDM has clearly pulled a lot of things out of his ass—such as the "Final Five", and the fact that those Cylons do not have numbers—which leaves a lot of inconsistencies in the overall story, which include the inaccuracy in the number scheme (no "Number Seven"?), the whole "Cylon Resurrection Hub", and that horrendous piece of PR garbage, "The Last Supper". A lot of this show is off the cuff, and it shows ''very'' badly. Frankly, I really wish they would've called J. Michael Straczynski or some ''B5'' alumni so that the show could be properly plotted storywise. (I'd be interested to see how well this series ages in 30 years; I don't think it'll age well at all in terms of storytelling, which is very hit or miss. As you can tell, I have a very "love/hate" relationship with this series, in addition to the original.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 02:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Another, broader reboot ==

I have provided another form of reboot for the article [[Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/ColdBoot|here]].  The thrust is to constrain clues to three types I outline -- actual extrahuman events, dramatic mentions of cylonhood, and outside sources.   I've largely stuck to it, though I have got one or two clues that go outside it, such as noting how Ellen's arrival with the fleet was extremely suspicious.

What I hope to remove are "clues" of the sort I've seen before, that say, "Dualla has been keeping herself close to the seats of power" and other activity which is suspicious, but not actually extrahuman or Cylon related.  I've also abstained from clues of the "It would be really cool if Cally were the Cylon because Tory murdered her."  While these sorts of dramatic hints may well be clues, the show is too full of them.   If Dualla's not close to power, then somebody else is.   So I do think it's OK to bend the rules for the extremely suspicious, or the very obviously dramatic foreshadowings.

To help people understand this more, I have included a list of the clues from the past that turned out to be real clues.  They are very few, but people can add if they saw some others.

Different tone from Joe's, but let me know what you think, and if you like it, let's promote it to replace the old one. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

: I like this one. I do thing a merging of the two is in order, since I personally believe there should be an "in-universe" POV for how the Fleet dealt with their own suspicions on who a Cylon could be (Baltar's detector, the paranoia concerns in the first season, etc.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah, the basics look good, but it still needs some tweaking here and there to fine-tune sentences, points, cites and such. And please, can we stop giving so much credence to Leoben's lie in "Flesh and Bone". At least it should be mentioned that it's most likely just BS instead of some "clue". -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh, absolutely. Could use more cites and some cleanup here and there. However, I do rather think the more obvious false clue should be mentioned "Adama is a Cylon", since it does lead to in-universe speculation—and rather humorously dark moments between Roslin and Adama in "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

So are we just going to leave this old article up and have people keep updating it, or go with my reboot or one of the other reboots?  Soon it will have been a waste of effort...--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 02:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

: It sadly already is. My earlier recommendation for an "in-universe" perspective still stands. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

== Starbuck As A Cylon ==

'''''However she was also physically abused as a child and still carries the scars; Cylons seem to be more robust than humans and possibly may not carry such long-term injuries. The same may be said of the knee injury which put a stop to Thrace's Pyramid playing ambitions.''''' 

What about Tigh's eye? He's a Cylon and his injury hasn't healed. that's a long-term injury that he still carries.

Starbuck can have scars and still be a Cylon. 

: Yes, true. Well, this whole page will face a massive rewrite after S4.5 begins airing anyway. I'm just ready to delete this page, to be honest, since it's so bad as to be funny... and that's being generous. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

== After the final Cylon is revealed ==

Once the final Cylon is revealed, I feel that this article should cover the following:
*In-universe speculation within the show's storyline, such as the speculation on Baltar and Starbuck.
*Plausible clues that characters are Cylons at least one episode before they are revealed as such.
*Confirmed intentional hints that characters may be Cylons, including red herrings and remnants of abandoned plotlines.
-- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

: Sounds a lot better than what we have at present. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)