Editing Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive2

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==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" |  We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them. 
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother".  I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle.  With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim.  (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)).  The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid.  If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP.  -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page.  There is little evidence that he is an Cylon.  In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.  Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon.  Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all.  Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator.  He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon.  He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials.  In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon?  What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically.  He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him.  Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP.  Jammer was a dupe.  That doesn't make him a cylon.  The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon."  And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things.  The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest.  --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened?  It's a valid question.


Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves.  This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer).  He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified.  Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him.  Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical.  Have any of you been to high school?  I did.  I knew dozens of kids like that.  And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion.  She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation.  This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six."  Boomer knew this term.  Jammer didn't.  This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not.  End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird';  Jammer is just a pessimistic guy.  Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death?  And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive.  He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing.  We know he was testing Duck.  Again, not evidence.  Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple.  Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple.  He's right, not wrong.  Not a Cylon.  We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed.  Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice?  Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning.  What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too.  There isn't any.  

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page.  The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident.  And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon.  If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.  

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear.  He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out. 

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP.  You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.  

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute.  How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon?  Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.  

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor.  I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
    1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
    8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
    6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)


:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on. 

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against. 

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this.  I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section.  There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon.  So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it.  Sorry about that.  Didn't mean to be so strong.  

To the points:

1.  'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2.  'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon.  He's paranoid.  He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one.  Why not Tyrol?  And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was:  She should be mad at Boomer.  Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander.  He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.  

4.  'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it.  And he made valid points.  Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before?  No.  As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task.  Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do.  I'd be pessimistic.  His feeling were extremely valid.  But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6.  "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege?  Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans?  I agree with his statement.  It is sacrilege.  I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time.  Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it.  The kid is torn.  And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort.  His reactions are very understandable.  

8.  "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number.  I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen.  At least 50 is a good assessment.  We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP.  The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors.  Jammer just happened to be among the survivors.  I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck.  It looked like somebody else.  Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is?  He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details.  He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better.  He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show.  In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.  

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated.  Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot.  Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should.  D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet.  In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer...  The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.  

You are right about what the writers may decide to do.  Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline.  Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon.  So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


::No, I don't agree.  I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind.  I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences.  Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone".  What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission.  It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish.  He was going to die!  Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns?  That was the point of that pass by.  I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck.  I don't know how you think that he's too obvious.  He seems so typical of a kid his age.  Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon).  All these agents were planted in places of significance.  Jammer... is a deckhand.  All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places.  And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery.  The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect.  In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility.  The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon.  This is in the least bit evidence.  In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon.  Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term.  "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff).  i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games.  -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.
:::::::And now he have a dead character with a really good chance of being a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:27, 5 March 2007 (CST)
::::::::But again, Starbuck has been shown, on screen, to have died. The chances she had before hear death do not matter at this point. She is dead. Until she shows up in present time in corporeal form (There seemed to be hints at some kind of spiritual thing, maybe Kara becomes the first Being Of Light in the reimagined series), she is eliminated from the possibility of being a Cylon.  --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:28, 5 March 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Starbuck has not been shown as dying on screen.  What we saw is her hand on her ejection switch, and her body bathed in intense white light, and a Cylon raider seen from Lee's POV, and a mental visitation from an angelic being who is not Leoben, and no sign of any body.  She might well be dead, but in no way is she confirmed dead like a Billy or Ellen.  And the circumstances of her "death" are closely tied to the mysteries of the show -- the Mandala, the angelic beings in your head, etc.  If she's dead it's under such radically different terms from the others that I can't imagine taking her off the speculation list.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:53, 5 March 2007 (CST)
::::::::::We must go by the ''character's'' viewpoint and from the official podcast information to fill this in. The characters believe her dead. The physics support her demise (exploding fighter, immense pressures that would easily crush/freeze a human, even in a flight suit), and RDM details the death without equivocation. Sure, the writers will do something with the character later in some form, but for now, she is unquestionably dead and should be removed from speculation by definition. Anything else is fanwanking. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:53, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::Why would we go from the character's viewpoint in examining a death that's not really a death?  Buffy was dead at the end of season 5 in her show, from the characters' viewpoint.    And indeed, if she isn't really dead, and the producers plan to bring her back, just exactly what would you expect RDM to say in his podcast?   You have to concede this is a highly mysterious no-body-found "death" and you know what those mean for 99.9% of TV major characters who have them, no? In fact, how many major SF characters can you cite who "died" in a manner like this and didn't come back?  --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:52, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:I agree Starbuck's death is probably not the end of Starbuck, but since she's considered dead, let's write that here. If she returns in [[Crossroads, Part II]] (which I think will happen), we'll have something conclusive, if not, I suggest we consider her dead. As Spencerian pointed out, there's no way a human (or a Cylon, for that matter) could've survived those extreme circumstances, so unless she returns as a Cylon or in some weird place "between life and death", she's plain dead. The same applies to Billy, Ellen, Kat and everyone else who died on the  show. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:19, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::We don't get any "bonus points" for correctly guessing that she isn't (or is) permanently dead. I can't dispute that '''I think''' she's coming back, but that and a dollar (Canadian) will buy you a Coke (in some places, but probably not an airport). Let's just document the fact that she appears to have died, which, unless proven otherwise, eliminates her. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:24, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:::I agree. The circumstances of her death are so dodgy that "appears to have died" is a good description. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:26, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::While I think she's really dead and not a Cylon, I agree. Unless something more substantial is offered, everything else is just excessive speculation and wishful thinking. People can think what they want, but here she - and everyone else - should be dead until proven otherwise. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:34, 6 March 2007 (CST)
::::I say look at the history of dramatic Fantasy/SF.  What are the examples of characters who died in manners like this -- no body, see their ship destroyed but don't see them, mystical lights, illusory other ships, hands on ejector, actor not trying to leave the show -- and who stayed dead?  It's very rare.  In fact, the hard truth is when a major character is shown to die in an SF show, the correct assumption is that they are not dead, and the crazy assumption would be that they are.  That sounds silly, but it's true.   Not that she might not be truly dead, but that's not the way to bet.   In fact, it's gotten so bad that today when they kill somebody for real, they have to go extra distance to show it's real.  This is not a death, this is an "SF character apparent death" with all the trappings.   RDM might well want to shock us by bucking the cliche, but again, until he does that, what do you feel is the correct assumption?  (Note that this assumption is true even on shows where characters are not routinely ressurecting as they do on this show.) --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 6 March 2007 (CST)
:::::You say that look it's a good thing. Aside from the Cylons, people should stay dead and not be brought back with more or less outrageous excuses. Starbuck was one of my favorite characters, but I'd like her to stay dead. I don't wish for her to be a Cylon just to bring her back. And I hope that's an area of BSG where it also distinguishes itself from traditional sci-fi stereotypes. 
:::::But my point was that for the purpose of a Wiki it's just better to assume that she's dead for now and not go into too much speculation on how she could survive. This isn't a forum for personal theories. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:16, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::::::It's not a good thing.  I'm just pointing out that this is the way it is.  I don't know if Starbuck is dead or alive, and in fact I would accept either answer.   A wiki documenting an SF show, should however do so in line with our experience with how SF shows tend to work.  And the truth -- not a good thing -- is that in SF shows, when a major character "dies" this ambiguously -- in fact often far less ambiguously than this -- the rule is that they will come back.   It's a stupid norm, but does anybody dispute that it is the norm?  As such a Wiki should not reflect the way we think it should be, or hope it will be, but the reality of SF shows.  We've certainly seen nothing that would reduce her chances of being a member of the Final Five.  (We've even seen things that would increase them, though I personally don't think she is a very likely candidate, I actually rate it as slightly more likely now, not less, and certainly not eliminated.)
:::::::Yet BSG has specifically tried to avoid being a formulaic SF show, and that is, I think, why it is so great. Standard patterns of SF do not apply to BSG, generally. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:45, 7 March 2007 (CST)
::::::::Sure, but that doesn't alter this main statement.  Assuming she's alive is a bad assumption.  Assuming she's dead is a bad assumption.   We should not want rules based on either assumption.  Does anybody disagree that we just plain don't know enough to call it? {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

'''EVERYONE:''' '''[[BW:NOT|Battlestar Wiki IS NOT a chat forum]] or a place for debate.''' Unless any contributor has a clarification to make on aired material that hasn't been already noted by official sources (the episode itself, and Ron Moore's [[Podcast:Maelstrom|podcast]], we need to end further discussion about Starbuck's fate on this page. ''Please move your discussions elsewhere on the internet''; I recommend the Sci Fi forums, or email. Please keep this (and any) talk page to discussion relevant to the content of the article. Discussing what Starbuck has become (or not) is irrelevant in '''this article.''' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:17, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:Yes sir. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:30, 7 March 2007 (CST)
:We're discussing what the best procedure is for eliminating a character from the page for which this is the talk page, and in particular if an ambiguous death qualifies as a reason for removal from the page.  It is difficult to see how any other place would be the place to make cases on that issue.  I'm honestly trying to avoid having chat about whether Starbuck is/is not alive, as we can't answer that.  I'm just one of those making the case that the removal from the main page doesn't fit with the history of SF shows.   I realize there is a danger that this question can devolve into show chat, however I would maintain it is a valid issue for a talk page, nonetheless.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 00:57, 8 March 2007 (CST)
::OK. Based on the article's objectives and the criteria, we must remove Kara Thrace from the list as she is deceased. We cannot and must not use other SF as a qualifier in this, and that is a topic for some other article or site. Only aired BSG material can be used in this discussion (as well as the article's qualifiers) to keep us on topic and perform the wiki's mission as an encyclopedia. The series executive producer does not elaborate at all on any future Starbuck developments, which leaves this discussion on this topic at an end. I recommend going to the "Kara Thrace DEAD" article at [[Talk:Kara Thrace]] if anyone cares to add their 2 cents to her possible return in some fashion. Just keep in mind that wiki software isn't designed for long discussions and we can't have long threads that choke a talk page. Brevity is good. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:29, 8 March 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)


== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come). 

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.  

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to  get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her.  That's downright odd).  

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::Well, she ain't a cylon (for now), but she IS dead. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:32, 5 March 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster (2) ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all.  Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons.  It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show.  They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol.  This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't.  They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5.  Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5.   As could anybody, except for the 7.  D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them."   Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues.   For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there.  Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will.  That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar.  The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter.  If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the  Temple of five.  All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests.  It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real.   Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established).  It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5.   If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7.  Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either.  I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid.  This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before.  It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation.  It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif.  The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them.  We don't know what they know but it's not much.  They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named)  It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that.   Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings.  That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there.   If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old.   Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons.  That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being.  The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him.  D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans.   Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense.  Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it.  On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology.  At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god.  But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know.  5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken.  To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god.   Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5.  However, my point at the start of this thread remains true.  We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past.   Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them.  It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::The secret of the final 5 is a secret -- even from the 7 revealed Cylons, that much we do know.  They have some sort of reason (programming) to not wish to discuss them and seek them out, and D'anna's violation of that is enough to get her whole line boxed, a drastic and as far as we know unprecedented move.  I suspect its programming because boy, would I be damn curious about the 5 if I were as theological as these Cylons are.   The numbering, anyway, could easily be deliberately intended to deceive.    They are special in some way, that we know, so their random number doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective.   Were there once 12 models all together?  What made the 7 forget they had ever seen the 5, then?  Were they created independently?  That seems to be the only other way (besides memory erasure) that the 7 would not have seen the 5, but that means either the 5 created the 7, or a 3rd party created both for 2 purposes.   The 5 have certainly seen the 7 (on New Caprica if nowhere else.)  One explanation that has the 5 still be recent is the 5 priests or their lord are still around and they helped create the humanoid cylons or the 5 in particular.  We still don't know how the cylons got their biotech. --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::Couldn't the Final 5 be earlier messed up or aged versions of 5 of the S7? And D'Anna was apologizing to Cavil? Huh? Did I just blow your collective minds?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:07, 8 February 2007 (CST) 
:::::::::::::Nope.  To quote D'anna.  "There are five *other* Cylons, brother.  One day you will see them."--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:47, 9 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::::Damn the facts.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:17, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::I'm not saying it can't be, but the final five being significantly different from the surviving seven (significantly older, or progenitors of the seven) seems to go against some of the information we have. For example, RDM once talked about the twelve models being based on twelve human archetypes. That seems to imply a common origin/creation for the twelve models. That doesn't mean that's the case or that RDM couldn't have changed his mind. This is a stretch, but could it be possible that when the Cylons refer to the "final five", they are ''not'' talking about the five models unknown to the colonials? Could the number five just be a coincidence? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:40, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::The twelve archetypes (which is BS anyway) go back much further than the Cylons.  Anyway, I don't see how it can be that "All this has happened before" if these Cylons are the very first Cylons.   The Kobolians and the Earthlings appear to have much more advanced technology than the colonials have now or had at the time of the creation of the toaster models.  It would be very odd to me (not just because of the scrolls) if the show's Cylons are the first Cylons.  What we had not seen until the Temple of Five was a definite connection between the earlier generation beings and the modern Cylons and their final 5.   Now we have one, unless it was a hallucination.   The final 5 have some big secret, and we don't know what it is, but it seems to be related to the Kobol or Earth eras.
::::::::::::::BS? Care to elaborate on that? I think you may be taking the "All this has happened before..." prophecy a bit too literally. "If you believe in the gods, then you believe in the cycle of time that we are all playing our parts in a story that is told again, and again, and again throughout eternity". That doesn't mean everything will be repeated in the exact same way over and over, just in general. "All this has happened before..." does not mean that Cylons existed before. I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't think that's what the prophecy means.  --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:57, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::::The BS is the idea that there are only 12 human archetypes worth creating.  Yes, we don't know what "all this" means, but the Kobolians and Earthlings are more advanced than the colonials (holodecks, living demigods, temple of 5 vision generator, Cylons afraid of Kobol) so it would seem pretty odd that they would not have created (or been) AIs/Cylons.   The Cylons keep hinting they know a big secret about the Kobol times and scrolls.  So perhaps the AIs of the past never rebelled, but it would be odd if they had not been there.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 19:19, 13 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::::::Well, I'm not saying the 12 archetypes idea is accurate, but that *is* what RDM said in an interview. I haven't thought it through enough to know if it fits with the information we have, but I've been wondering if it's possible that the final five previously broke from the other Cylons and went in search of Earth on their own. Perhaps they are the ones that set up these advanced technology "clues" to lead the other Cylons and/or Humans to follow after them. They could have easily constructed things to fit the prophecies. Just a thought. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 19:32, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season?   She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probably suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

In summary, while we don't yet have conclusive evidence to date the final five as thousands of years old (though it is suggested) one thing we do know is that the 7 have not seen the final 5.  The 7 pursued their war on the colonies without the 5, and the infiltration program of the 7, which began about 2 years before the war does not put any bounds on when the infiltration program of the final 5 began.  I would be interested in any arguments on what why the final 5's infiltration program could not have begun many years earlier, unknown to the 7 or the colonies.  As such, I have added a note weakening the 2 year constraint rule for members of the final 5.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:15, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:We don't have ANY information on the nature of the Five (other than the fact that there are five beings, and one Cylon recognized a face among them, but again that data is lost) to warrant a change in this criterion. While I know this is a popular thread, there is little else to go on. Not even the h-Cylons themselves know who their creators are, only what they were created from ("Rapture" noted that gem). The two-year rule applies to every character unless we get confirmed information that suggests Cylon infiltration in the Colonies before then, and there has not been. Remember, everyone, that Battlestar Wiki is not a chat forum. Talk only on the needs of the article so that we stay on-topic as much as possible. I will need to archive this talk page soon because of excessive speculation and discussion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup>
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case."  --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection. 

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

== Everybody's a Cylon ==

This is a speculation that violates all the rules, yet I've seen a number of people support as interesting on the Galactica newsgroup, do people feel it's out of place on the main speculation page:

Everybody in the show is a Cylon.  All this has happened before.  AI beings were created before, by earlier generations of humans, on Kobol or Earth, and those AIs rebelled and took human form.   "Some of them are programmed to think they are human."   In this case the "some of them" is the 12 tribes, created on Kobol, and then banished as a result of battles among their creators, their memories of their origins wiped or altered before they were  sent out into the stars with altered sacred scrolls.  Athena kills herself over it but leaves clues back to Earth for them -- presumably she was one of the main creators of this new race of artificial humanoids.

So the artificial humanoids, thinking they were evolved natural beings (though they have no evidence for that on their own planets) rebuilt a civilization, and then created their own AI robots which rebelled.  (Possibly on their own, possibly with guidance from watchers).

After all, we're told "Some of them are programmed to think they are human" at the start of every S1 episode, but only one character has been revealed to have been in that state.   There's a lot more other stuff involved in these theories about what this might have meant about Kobol, Earth, the Final 5, the Temple etc. but I just wanted to stick to the broadest humanoid Cylon speculation of all -- that everybody is a Cylon, of an earlier generation.   Obviously these earlier generation Cylons are able to breed, etc.

The evidence is still circumstantial for this (as it is for all the Cylon speculations) but it's growing, especially as the appearance of the fianl five in the [[Temple of Five]] strongly suggests that there are earlier generation Cylons of some type--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:59, 9 February 2007 (CST)

: This is my favorite theory so far. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:21, 12 February 2007 (CST)

:It's an interesting thought; however, the "some of them are programmed to think they are human" line was removed for a reason. I don't know what that reason was, but it could simply be that all of the sleeper agents have been revealed, so the line isn't really accurate any longer. Also, it may not be true that "only one character has been revealed to have been in that state." The initial Doral on Galactica was probably a sleeper. Shelly Godfrey also acted like she may have believed she was human. I guess we don't know for sure, but I feel that at least the Doral was. Still, it's a good thought. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 19:53, 13 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that this cycle's humans may be descended from both the previous cycle's humans and the previous cycle's Cylon equivalent. As for "some of them are programmed to think they are human", I believe it was taken out because there weren't any more ''confirmed'' sleeper agents and they didn't want to outright state "there's another sleeper agent in the fleet", or because they couldn't use any clips for that line that wouldn't be either out of date or a huge spoiler. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:51, 13 February 2007 (CST)