Editing Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name.  The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree.  Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)


== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes".  I checked and it is not in "Pegasus".  We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb.  They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me.  Oh the pain the pain the pain!  How could they (the writers) do this?  Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others.  Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of  flying two "Vipers against Baseships."  But this woman makes my skin crawl.  Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman.  But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally  out in left field.  There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect  from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude.  The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear.  No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral.  The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it.  The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it.   And this isn't the first illegal order she's given.  She should have been relived when she murdered her XO.  You don't obey illegal orders.  What the hell is going on here?  I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple.  They're going too darn far!  Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::What you are asking is difficult -- at best.  Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga.  TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS).  However, it still exists as a concept.  And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space!  Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi.  Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic.  They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Play nice Centuri.  If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?"  And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility".  You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself.  I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone.  '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character.  I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there.  I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites.  "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)
	
::::1 - who is Ricimer?
::::2 - what is he talking about?
::::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
:::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians.  They were lined up against a wall and executed.  There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that.  Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Not just Adama -- his entire command.  That means all senior officers and crew.  She ordered him to kill EVERYONE in CIC and the personel in key areas throughout the ship. You know, this has gotten a little afield of my original inquiry. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 21:59, 10 January 2006 (EST)

: Coming into this one late, a few points. Firstly, I disagree that [[Helena Cain]] is all that different from [[Cain (TOS)]]. Both characters had become laws unto themselves, by virtue of honestly believing they were the last of humanity. Both characters were prepared to do whatever they believed was necessary to continue to prosecute the war, even if they stood no chance of ultimately bringing the Cylons down entirely. Neither character actually adjusted well to being re-integrated with a larger body of survivors, the main difference being that [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] didn't actually outrank [[Adama (TOS)]]; [[Adama (TOS)|Adama]] was willing to defer to him somewhat, because he saw [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] as a tactical genius, but the two were equals. The other difference is that TOS was made in the 1970s and was seen as family programming (witness their refusal to allow [[Cassiopeia]] to remain a [[socialator]] for the series). [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] could be portrayed as a maverick, a hard-ass, and a bit touched, but not a murderer of his own crew, let alone someone who would conscript civilians, steal the remainder's supplies, and run. I don't believe it's actually out of character for [[Cain (TOS)]], they just couldn't say he did it. Frankly, I think the real reason it comes across creepier is because [[Helena Cain]] is a woman, and even in 2006 we still have cultural ideas that tell us that women don't do that sort of thing. Which is almost certainly why RDM chose that particular gender swap.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)


===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right.  Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series.  As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting.  But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pegasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out.  Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series.  I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse.  Only curiosity about the conclusion has me going now.  I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who.  As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Londo's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered.  This will mean that Adama will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge.  If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The opportunity never comes for either order to be carried out.  Like the original Pegasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and dropping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders.  Fisk's conscience finally can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original.  A lot can and can not be said about it.  When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead.  But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable.  Like the comparisons between the various versions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,''  or any other redone work.  Sorry, but I did have my hopes up.  Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''?  It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)


::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

== 800 deaths ==

When was it it mentioned that Gina caused the 800 deaths? I'm not skeptical, but I dont recall it being mentioned in the show. Was it cut out for time in "Pegaus" and just mentioned in the podcasts?

Also, would anyone mind tuning up Cain's entry on Wikipedia? Im not asking for an exact copy, but maybe adding a little more  detail (including her origins and the 800 deaths). --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 18:34, 15 January 2006 (EST)

:This was spurious information based on a spoiler someone provided before the episode aired. Confer [[Talk:Pegasus (episode)#Gina killed 800?]]. I thought we'd expurgated those references from the wiki, but apparently this is a tenacious bit of misinformation. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:20, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually in the Extended Cut it's mentioned that Gina helped Cylon Centurion to get aboard Pegasus which caused over 800 deaths. But saying "over 700" would still be correct ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:22, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

==Rank==

Since it is stated in this article [[http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques/Archive04#Pegasus_.28Extended_Version.29]] that the extended episode of [[Pegasus_(episode)|Pegasus]] should be considered [[canon]], shouldn't Cain's rank be listed as "Rear Admiral"? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 09:02, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

== Biblical? ==

did anyone get a Cain and Abel vibe between Cain and Adama when president Laura Roslin orders (suggests?) that Adama kill Cain?
or am i the only one feeling the vibe? --[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:42, 05 October 2006 (AWST)
:That's a good catch. If you like, add it to the Notes section of the article, [[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
::Cain is taken from the commander of the original Pegasus. As there was no conflict between adama then i doubt that its the case. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 11:46, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
:The reference is pretty obvious, but as Mercifull notes, the name ultimately derives from the TOS character who was featured in considerably different circumstances. It is also evocative of [[Wikipedia:Citizen Kane|Citizen Kane]] and [[Wikipedia:The Caine Mutiny|The Caine Mutiny]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:53, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

== Picture Update Needed ==

This picture is neither flattering, is incorrectly named, and could stand an update. Anyone have their DVDs handy? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:10, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
:Possible candidates from BSG Media:
:* [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=53&pos=3 Can you hear me now?]
:* [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=128&pos=2 OK... who farted?]

:Those are the promos... I'll check the episode caps they have too. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:18, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
:: From Pegasus:
:: * [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=44&pos=389 Nothing Freudian to see here...]
:: * [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=44&pos=395 *Glower*]
:: * [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=44&pos=691 Move all zig]
:: --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:23, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

:::For great justice, I'd go with "move all zig". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:28, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
::::"What you say?!" I just used a version of that one... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:37, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
::::The others are better in quality, however, so swap and share as desired by taste. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
:::::I can get a screen cap from Pegasus or Res Ship if you still need one. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 17:10, 9 May 2007 (CDT)