Editing Talk:Hadrian/Archive 1

The Joyce reference should really be removed, since a "source close to production" isn't really a verifiable source at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 21:18, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

== Insignia image ==

Does anyone have a clear image of Hadrian's insignia? --[[User:Kevin W.|<b><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color: #006400">Kevin W.</span></b>]]<sup>&bull;[[User talk:Kevin W.|<span style="color: #DC143C ">So say we all</span>]]</sup> 11:58, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/steel_viper/BSG/hadrian.jpg
:The closest I could find at BSG Media (my usual source) is [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=28&pos=81 this]. If you click on the image for the higher res pic you get a fairly good look at it. [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=28&pos=79 This] is a bit darker, but it shows that there isn't really anything too significant that the first pic isn't showing. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:31, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Sergeant or warrant officer ==

A recent edit added the following:
:* Sgt. Hadrian is mistakenly referred to as a Marine in fandom and various forums. In reality the position of Master-at-Arms is a Warrant Officer position in the Navy. The rank designation of Sergeant coincides with various military structures found throughout the world, such as the Royal Air Force which has Flight Sergeant as a Warrant Officer rank.

:* On the set of Battlestar Galactica, all departments (such as props, wardrobe, assistant directors) have designated the khaki uniforms as belonging to Warrant Officers, such as the one worn by Hadrian.

Warrant officer is a rank, not a position, function or service branch - warrant officers form a corps within a branch, along with officers and enlisted.  Given RDM's practice of largely following naval customs (and where it doesn't directly conflict the older series), sergeant rank is associated with marines.  Furthermore, in the RAF, flight sergeant is considered a senior non-commissioned officer rank<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Sergeant</ref>.

The departmental direction regarding khaki uniforms is consistent with uniform distinction given to senior non-commissioned officers, but that is not necessarily proof that Hadrian is a warrant officer.  Furthermore, there has not been any canonical mention of warrant officer ranks (at least to my knowledge).--[[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 23:05, 19 December 2007 (CST)

In some cases, yes, the rank structure in BSG follows Naval rank structure, but ultimately is a mismash of ranks.  There are no Colonels or Majors in the Navy.  Commanders are occupying the position of Naval Captains, Colonels are Commnders, Majors seem to be Lt. Cmdrs, they have no correlation for their Captains. etc.

I just know that in my experience from working on the show, that everyone in a khaki uniform is a Warrant Officer.  I mispoke when I referred to Warrant Officer as a branch of service, I was thinking of Marines vs. Colonial Fleet.--[[User:Zeppo|Zeppo]] 23:30, 19 December 2007 (CST)

:One needs to keep in mind is that BSG mirrors real-life practices to a certain extent, but doesn't follow them 100%ly. So while it's helpful to point out real-world parallels, it is simply wrong to label a deviation from that as an error. Such deviations can be noted, but they aren't errors within the show. For example the position of the CAG with the rank structure doesn't fit with US Navy practices either. That doesn't make it wrong from the show's perspective.
:Second, we need a source for that statement. It's certainly very interesting and I'm not claiming you're lying, but we need a cite I'm sorry, but "I'm working on the show" doesn't really work by our usual standards :s . As it stands it's a very tenuous challenge to something that hasn't been established on screen, even if it might be correct.
:Also, there is still the point that Tyrol's tone implies that he outranks her. The way he emphasizes her rank. Maybe it's just me. That wouldn't be the case if she were a WO. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 02:39, 20 December 2007 (CST)

::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward?  And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)
:::I wasn't referring to you, but to Zeppo's implication that real-life structures should supersede on-screen statements in this case. I agree with you. Occam's Razor: She appears to be a sergeant, so even if it can be explained away, it makes most sense for her to be a sergeant. And as said, if everyone in a khaki uniform were a WO, wouldn't there be way too many? I thought WOs are a pretty high rank, drawn from senior NCOs. It doesn't really mesh with their numbers, or their age for that matter.
:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)
@@ Line 14: / Line 14: @@
 :* On the set of Battlestar Galactica, all departments (such as props, wardrobe, assistant directors) have designated the khaki uniforms as belonging to Warrant Officers, such as the one worn by Hadrian.
-Warrant officer is a rank, not a position, function or service branch - warrant officers form a corps within a branch, along with officers and enlisted.  Given RDM's practice of largely following naval customs (and where it doesn't directly conflict the older series), sergeant rank is associated with marines.  Furthermore, in the RAF, flight sergeant is considered a senior non-commissioned officer rank [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Sergeant].
+Warrant officer is a rank, not a position, function or service branch - warrant officers form a corps within a branch, along with officers and enlisted.  Given RDM's practice of largely following naval customs (and where it doesn't directly conflict the older series), sergeant rank is associated with marines.  Furthermore, in the RAF, flight sergeant is considered a senior non-commissioned officer rank<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Sergeant</ref>.
 The departmental direction regarding khaki uniforms is consistent with uniform distinction given to senior non-commissioned officers, but that is not necessarily proof that Hadrian is a warrant officer.  Furthermore, there has not been any canonical mention of warrant officer ranks (at least to my knowledge).--[[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 23:05, 19 December 2007 (CST)
@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 ::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward?  And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)
-:::I wasn't referring to you, but to Zeppo's implication that real-life structures should supersede on-screen statements in this case. I agree with you. Occam's Razor: She appears to be a sergeant, so even if it can be explained away, it makes most sense for her to be a sergeant. And as said, if everyone in a khaki uniform were a WO, wouldn't there be way too many? WO is a pretty high rank, and they're drawn from senior NCOs. It doesn't really mesh with their numbers, or their age for that matter.
+:::I wasn't referring to you, but to Zeppo's implication that real-life structures should supersede on-screen statements in this case. I agree with you. Occam's Razor: She appears to be a sergeant, so even if it can be explained away, it makes most sense for her to be a sergeant. And as said, if everyone in a khaki uniform were a WO, wouldn't there be way too many? I thought WOs are a pretty high rank, drawn from senior NCOs. It doesn't really mesh with their numbers, or their age for that matter.
-:::The note that "a WO can hold the rank of flight sergeant", doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The details differ greatly over time and countries, but even the British armed forces WO seems to be a rank in itself, not a position (as already noted). Also, being a Marine and a WO wouldn't be mutually exclusive. It's just a rank within a branch.
+:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)
-:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. Maybe the production crew thinks of it this way, but even if it can be proven first hand, it just doesn't make much sense. At times, I've though there are a bit too many people in khaki uniforms for all of them to be Marines (in stationed in CIC for example), but making all of them Warrant Officers isn't a satisfactory solution to that either, given that BSG tries to stay relatively close to real-life militaries. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)
-I don't know how to comment in the history log like everybody else seems to be doing so, since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here.  I'll go along with Serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant for now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definite rank because I don't.  I think that she is most likely either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant is I think it makes sense to just list her rank as "Sergeant" in the near term since that is how she is always refered to in the show.
-[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
-:Warrant officer is rank, not a position. She can't be both a sergeant and a warrant officer. WOs are basically senior NCOs who hold a status similar to officers, but are a group of their own between NCOs and officers. The staff sergeant thing came from a comparison of her rank insignia with established ones and its assumed equivalence with PO1 (sergeant would be the same as PO2 and that has a different insignia), as well the very clear implication that Tyrol outranks her. According to Joe's completely different list, she'd be "sergeant first class". It's never been stated that she's Marine actually, so if the CF used the rank of sergeant as well, that would make sense too. But yeah, for now just leaving it at "sergeant" is the best. If and when we decide to change the overall rank chart, we can still change this. You changed it over early, but that made the page inconsistent with the rank article. Though, all in all, it's a very minor issue. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
-== Any clarification yet? ==
-Since Joe now has access to production materials and staff, has anything been found to document the assertion that tan uniforms are warrant officers, what rank Hadrian is, etc.? -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 04:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
-: Tan uniforms are worn by warrant officers with the warrant officer pin. Sgt. Hadrian is the only exception to the rule, as she wears Sergeant pins. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 05:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)