Editing Talk:Gaius Baltar/Archive 1

== You Heard It Here First (I think) ==

Things are just adding up too well in my mind that Baltar is now a Cylon. Consider his uncanny tendency to sense what turn out to be other Cylons (Doral, Boomer). I added speculation on this based on past events. In particular, a nuclear blast of the type that leveled his home would cut both Six's and his body to shreds--her body was far from sufficient protection.  Remember that such a blast turns ''everything'' (rocks, metal, wood) into a wall of death that bludgeons all, like a volcanic pyroclastic flow. Consider that we see Baltar relatively unscathed after this, with no explanation of his escape. This is a serious matter to consider since we must remember that the TOS Baltar actually joined the Cylons, becoming a commander, and became more than a mere traitor. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:16, 2 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Peter Virago has a good point where we should ask, if Baltar is a Humano-Cylon, why does she protect Baltar from the nuclear blast at his home in the first place?

Answer: For appearances. Remember that the information of a Humano-Cylon's brain is transmitted to another copy. Since a Baltar clone would need to keep a contiinuous memory (fragmented briefly by blind terror in escaping the area),  it would be a simple matter to have a new copy of Baltar "wake up" with minor wounds, where his natural tendency to be chickenshit would have him run with the rest of the groups. For Six's aims, Baltar may need to continually reminded that he is human and never reveal what might be his true nature. A lot of things that the Humano-Cylons do seems to be for show, to drive or manipulate the  remaining humans, rather than killing them outright. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:22, 3 Aug 2005 (EDT)
::OK. Feldspar makes the most convincing argument against the possibility of Baltar being a Cylon. It still doesn't eliminate the thought, however. Remember that Baltar's chain has been pulled this way and that. The idea that he is still human may also be an illusion to both the viewer and him. Remember that Galactica Boomer was just all happy and thought she, too, was an ordinary human, and look how that turned out. Despite what Six shows him in terms of a baby, it may still be a deception as a process of brainwashing his consciousness to work as a Cylon agent. I don't believe that Cylons want to make human/Cylon hybrids the default: they just need human DNA to get started on their own. Hopefully we'll get some kind of resolution to this one in this season. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:48, 22 Aug 20 05 (EDT)

Further food for thought. The standard opening sequence **continues** to remind us that Six shielded Baltar from the explosion, and that the nuclear explosion was devastating to Baltar's apartment. I can't help but thinking that this reminder is there for a reason, yet to be revealed. As well, did you notice that both Baltar and Six are shown during the part of the standard opening sequence that describes the cylons, with the back of Baltar's head facing the camera? Again, a possible clue that Baltar is not at all what he seems.

== Now THIS deserves Quality Article status ==

Mq59's addition of a publicity photo of James Callis' incredibly "crazy look" as Baltar, along with Day's and other recent edits have really refined this page. The page is very close to perfect in format, standards, sources, and balanced speculation. This is a good example of how other character articles should resemble. Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:11, 5 January 2006 (EST)

:Right, but we still don't know how that stupid "quality article" template works, and the [[Help:Template]] page isn't very instructive. Back on topic though, I do like the article.  Nice balance of the pictures. I agree with the new "crazy pic".  Do the parenthetical citations need quotes, though ("[[Gaius Baltar#Arrival of Pegasus|Gaius Baltar]]")? Otherwise, I can't find any other nits to pick offhand. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:20, 5 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, of course, like others here I view the entire "could Baltar be a Cylon?" arguement as insanity, but much of that same article also gives much evidence of how he ''couldn't be''; regardless, it's a fine article.  I'm not one to use the phrase "slam dunk" lightly, but this page...--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:04, 5 January 2006 (EST)

:::Just you wait, Ricimer, I will be proved right in the end about Baltar, even if we have to waltz through Season 5 to find out! I did try to keep the Baltar-the-Cylon section balanced, so thanks for the nit-pick. On quotes within parentheses: No, we generally don't use them unless:

:::* The items are in a sentence format within, such as here ([[Miniseries]], "[[Valley of Darkness]]", "[[Scattered]]"). Quotes should not be used in single episode notations as shown here ([[Fragged]]). When "Miniseries" is single-noted, it should not have quotes as it's not an episode name ''per se''.
:::* A certain emphasis or ''sic'' implication is needed to note an important variation. In SV's example, "Pegasus" was in quotes within ()s to differentiate it from the battlestar article. I don't know if this particular practice was made convention, but I use it, and for this episode wikilink only.

:::Yeah, it will be nice once we get that Quality Template working, but yes, it should be reserved for the best o f the best, and hopefully, we can update the Main Page to show the article and give it a look like Wikipedia to highlight them or an Article of the Day. '''''T-Minus 28 hours and counting...''''' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:25, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Thanks, but I didn't upload the Crazy Baltar photo.  I made some grammatical corrections, smoothed out some things, and included Baltar manhandling of Cally when she tried to blackmail him as a pre-Tyrol example of Baltar's new willingness to physically hurt others.

[[User:mq59|mq59]] 20:15, 5 January 2006 (EST)

: There ''is'' a [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions#Links to Episodes|Convention]] on episode names and citations. You can find it afore-linked, but, just to paraphrase it, if it's a parenthetical citation, then it goes like this: <nowiki>([[Episode Name]])</nowiki>. Notice the following period. If it's within a sentence it should be put in quotations, thus: Blah blah as seen in <nowiki>"[[Episode Name]]"</nowiki> when et cetera. We don't have a specific case for parenthetical lists or for the Mini, but I think Spence's gut feeling is probably good. I'll try to remember to start a discussion about it on the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions|S&C Talk]] tomorrow. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:59, 6 January 2006 (EST)

::I shouldn't post this here, but I just want to note that I dislike quotes when multiple-noting. They add clutter and don't really improve clarity or readability. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 02:04, 6 January 2006 (EST)

==A Friendly Wager, Spencerian==

Spencerian, you are adamant that the evidence points towards Baltar being a Cylon.  I, however, firmly believe that the many facts, points of evidence, and conjecture, etc. already posted up in counterarguements on this article makes it '''impossible''' for Baltar to be a Cylon.  (Note that it isn't simply "my gut feeling"; I believe that, logically, the evidence points against it).  -->Our edits on BattlestarWiki, in the Question and Analysis sections in the episode guide, and in checking and comparing various points and theories on the other articles (involving Cylons, timeline, etc, etc.) are based on such debate over the facts.-->'''I believe that this debate forms a macrocosm of this in its most concentrated form, a logical edit debate, based on facts and points of evidence (rather than flame war and childish name calling).  '''In short, I view it as the ultimate test, of our skills, our ability to make good conjecture based on evidence at hand, comparing points and counterpoints'''.--->As a result Spencerian''', because we hold these polar opposite views on this matter, I propose the following gentlemanly wager;  [U]If Baltar is proved to or revealed to be a Cylon, your edits will hold precedence over anything I write '''in perpetuity'''.  If Baltar is proven beyond any resonable doubt to be a Human and ''not'' a Cylon, ''my'' edits will hold precendence over anything you write '''in perpetuity'''.[/U]  
:For example, conditions under which Ricimer wins this wager are:
*The remaining six humanoid Cylon models are eventually revealed, and we see that NONE of the 12 models are Gaius Baltar.  
*Gaius Baltar fathers a child with a humanoid Cylon:  It has been established that it is '''impossible''' for two humanoid Cylons to procreate.

:Conditions under which Spencerian wins this wager are:
*When all 12 humanoid Cylon models are revealed, one of them turns out to be Baltar.  
(Please add any conditions for either side which I may have forgotten).
-->'''Do you accept, Spencerian?  Or are you unsure of your position in this matter?  Speaking for myself, my belief that Baltar is ''not'' a Cylon is unwavering.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:59, 5 January 2006 (EST)

:I like the wager, but your stakes are not appropriate. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 23:44, 5 January 2006 (EST)
::What would be? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]]

:::I like the wager, too, but I wouldn't want to take precidence over your (or anyone's) edits. In fact, we all hold that power (admin rights notwithstanding, which cannot be transferred or neglected). I'd sooner buy you something else: [http://www.squaremodels.com/minigfed.html This model of the battlestar.] Or, perhaps send you a small sum to buy the beer of your choice (assuming you are 21+), or a $10 gift certificate to the iTunes Music Store (sorry, you'd have to furnish your own iPod). I will make the choice of the prize depending on my budget at the time--sorry, but the wiki's admin wages are a bit low to go crazy... :)

:::You DO realize that I added or enhanced many of the counterarguments as well as the arguments in the very section, ''right?'' Even if Starbuck, say, turned up pregnant, does that necessarily mean that Baltar is a human? No. While no information has been forwarded by the show (yet), a Cylon male might be able to ''sire'' a child through a human female, too. The only problem with this wager is that the damn show may last 7 seasons before we find out Baltar's fate!

:::Oh, and this is a big hunch, but I think there's a ''13th'' model--an overlord that's vastly more intelligent. Imagine if we're able to see who commands the basestars? ''I wonder who.'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:22, 6 January 2006 (EST)

::::Now that's friendlier. I'm on Ricimer's team for this one. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 00:58, 6 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Such material/monetary things are irrelevant to me.  But you are in luck because it so happens there is something I want, something I wanted ever since I came here, they say it cannot be taken, it have to be given...--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:07, 6 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I thought you'd figure this one out, but it may have been lost on us in the hiatus, etc.; formalizing it--> If Baltar is revealed to be a Cylon, you must aide me in becoming an Administrator (see above, where I explain how the debate is a good showcase, etc. etc.).  In the event that he is revealed to be a Cylon, I will either A) stop all attempts at being an Administrator, never running again, or B) If I am already an Administrator, quit the position permanently.  These stakes seem "free of loss of life", to say the least...--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:04, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Seems like the debate over Ellen should factor in here somewhere. (I can't stand her either, Ric. But I don't think she's a Cylon... unfortunately. Maybe we'll still be able to watch her die, though.) --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 10:30, 6 January 2006 (EST)

::::::: Thing about Ellen is, either she's an aged Six (we've not seen how Humano-Cylons age or even IF they do or if they've been around long enough to do much of it, but still) or she's human, as I see it. RDM said that the Cylons, in making their 12 models, kind of said, "You know what? There's only really 12 of you." If that's so, then they're all going to be sort of architypal and Six already fills the attractive, sexually agressive blonde slot. What we have yet to see is the Manly Warrior model (Like Anders or someone). I wonder if Cylons would made a distinction between genders in that case and maybe the Manly Warrior model could still be a woman. Anyway... that's a bit off-topic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:16, 6 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::The theory that Ellen Tigh could be an "older" Number Six is just silly to me.  As for Ellen Tigh herself, I do not believe that any of the RDM comments we have reviewed ''definatively'' point one way or the other:  I leave it as "we're not quite sure, but there's always still a possibility".  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Bio Cleanup, Portents of Doom ==

Well, Baltar's page is about to exceed the recommended size limits for an article. I will add this request for solutions to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]] project, but we will need to either truncate the cumultative history in this page, or break up the data into seasonal subarticles (which is what I recommend). Added a cleanup tag to give note to all. The Baltar-as-a-Cylon data remains (IMHO) relevant, but adds too much weight to the page and should be moved, perhaps, to the [[Humano-Cylon]] article (nevermind the debate there to work in that article into the general [[Cylons (RDM)]] main article or as a subarticle). Thoughts on this and how to deal with other main character articles that grow under their episodic weight? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:55, 31 January 2006 (EST)

:This is a real problem, and one that we haven't really had to face until now. The TOS pages don't have enough material to run into this limit, and are relatively static. These pages, on the other hand, will only keep getting bigger. I like the idea of the season-based subarticles. Enough info on the main page for somebody to get the drift, with detailed episode by episode analysis only if they choose to drill down to the subpage. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:04, 31 January 2006 (EST)

::I may use Baltar's page to begin such a transition as an example soon, although I'm still trying to wrap my head around a similar issue with the complexities of the [[Miniseries]] and related subarticles. I'll have to review other articles to see how best this can work. Perhaps a central [[Gaius Baltar]] page, with links to [[Gaius Baltar/Season 1]] and similar successive subarticles (no character template? or add template per page, adjusting data as of each season end?). Does that work from a wiki standpoint? I trust your wiki skills better, SV; my strengths are editing, identifying and elaborating on insightful stuff from the show (as he shamelessly promotes the [[Case Orange]] and [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] pages), and admin negotiation skills (no need to explain there :). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:32, 31 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's how I imagined it. I'd lean towards one character template for the parent article (in the event of catasrophic need to change all character templates, we only have to worry about one per character). The tricky part would be how to categorize the child articles. Leave them with no category, and they show up on the "uncategorized articles" report. (Not a problem, other than my OCD.) If we put them in a category then they would just up next to baltar on the category pages.
:::* Gaius Baltar
:::* Gaius Baltar/Season1
:::* Gaius Baltar/Season2
:::That might look a little goofy. I'll look to Wikipedia and see if I can find a pattern to follow. (My pattern-following skills are what pass for wiki-skills). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:40, 31 January 2006 (EST)

:::Example: [[Wikipedia:Isaac Newton|Main Page (summary)]] and [[Wikipedia:Isaac Newton's early life and achievements|Detail Page]]. The category on the subpage is "Isaac Newton", which is sort of odd. I guess in our case the category would be Gaius Baltar. (And you'd end up with a category for each major character. I guess the "major character" category would be a subcategory of Characters... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:53, 31 January 2006 (EST)


Rather than hastily spliting Baltar's bio article into two separate ones, why don't we move the entire, Controversial, "Baltar is a Cylon" arguement to it's own page?  That would shave off like a third of this pages' information, and I think that we can all agree that it doesn't need to be right here.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:51, 31 January 2006 (EST)

: I agree that we should move the "Baltar is a Cylon" section to its own subpage. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:27, 31 January 2006 (EST)

::Done. See the new [[Cylon agent speculation]] article. I've also managed to work in the qualifiers that increase or decrease the probability. I also moved the speculations from the Humano-Cylon article here as well. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:16, 31 January 2006 (EST)

I think season-based subarticles are a horrible idea. There is no reason this article cannot be drastically summarized. See one of the longer biography articles on Memory Alpha for an example of the style we should be shooting for - [http://memory-alpha.org/en/index.php/Jean-Luc_Picard Jean-Luc Picard], for example - and note that this covers seven seasons and four movies worth of material. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 21:11, 31 January 2006 (EST)
::The man has a point. We'll need to take lessons from that wiki, perhaps move to bullet points in some bios. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:14, 31 January 2006 (EST)
:::I agreee utterly with Farago and Spencerian.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:45, 31 January 2006 (EST)
::::So the consensus appears to be: "Conventionizing and concising"? (With emphasis on the consising.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 23:19, 31 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I recently, for reasons I can no longer recall, read the entirety of [[MemoryAlpha:Leonard McCoy|Bones']] Memory Alpha entry. They seemed to hit on some of the high points of his career, but not go into great detail. So we would mention that Gaius invented the flightprogram thing that went so badly, was elected Vice President, invented and then covered up a reliable (if slow) Cylon detector, etc, without going into great detail. What do others think of this? If we need to discuss some specific incidents in particular, we could make sub pages on the topics (like "Might Be a Cylon" analyses or other things that might need to cite specifics about various episodes). --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:35, 31 January 2006 (EST)

== Six in his Head ==

At this point, RDM has made fairly clear (in the Downloaded podcast) that the Six in Baltar's head is, in fact, a psychotic hallucination. The implication is that even when Baltar correctly divines Cylon motives and Cylon nature (for example, coming up with the Cylon detector based on Six-in-his-head's lead of using a nuclear warhead), it's really just two sides of his own established genius talking in a kind of multiple-personality-disorder situation. I suppose it's possible that RDM is trying to mislead, but that seems needlessly conspiratorial.

As a result, an awful lot of what '''appears''' to be Cylon manipulation is actually all Baltar, all the time. Some of it (like the case of the ''Olympic Carrier'', for example) can be construed as either coincidence or the Cylons having a sufficiently good handle on Baltar's psychology that they can guess he'll be manipulable without knowing he's hallucinating Six and that, in turn, is making him more susceptible.

That said, Baltar himself doesn't seem to fully realise Six is an hallucination.

I guess what I'm getting at is, the article currently reflects the ambiguity from Baltar's POV (and the viewer's early-series POV), rather than the certainty provided by the producer :-) Should we fix this?

--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

: I think that RDM's comments should be noted in the appropriate section with the equally appropriate context.  However, I would be very, very leery of believing his comments as the "holy writ", since (by his own admissions in the podcasts, commentaries, and other venues), there were many things that were thrown in later on. (Boomer being a Cylon in the Mini, Cally's salvation in Bastille Day, Boxey being scrapped entirely, et al.). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:54, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:: Point taken. I'm pretty sold on the hallucination idea to begin with, but I'll agree that they've changed their minds before. This show is clearly '''not''' being run like ''Babylon 5'', with a pre-definined beginning, middle and end, and even B5 saw changes from Joe's original vision when better ideas surfaced or vagaries of casting and network politics demanded.

:: Should there be a separate section discussing this aspect, separate from the overt and indisputable manipulations by the Cylons?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:I also feel that that is just '''the way he's talking'''; Number Six could still be a hallucination or an organic chip. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:21, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== 'Running" for office ==

In the VP election, Roslin put him in over Wallace Gray, to defeat Zarek.  In the presidential election, Zarek put him in over himself, to defeat Roslin.  Ironic, eh?--[[User:KoopaTroopa211|KoopaTroopa211]] 10:48, 7 March 2006 (CST)
: It's just another part of the "you reap what you sow" theme in BSG. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:29, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Cleanup? ==
Does this article still need cleanup? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:15, 14 March 2006 (CST)
: I think so, although right at the moment I can't quite pin down exactly what still feels rough about the page (don't have time right now to really read it over in depth). Also, it probably needs to be updated to take into account "Lay Down Your Burdens"...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:18, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:: Done :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 01:44, 18 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon Detector Mechanism ==
"which functions by exposing cell samples to the warhead's radiation, because it has already been demonstrated (Miniseries) that Cylons are more susceptible to certain kinds of radiation."
Are we sure that's how it works? It seems that the warhead is not so integral to the operation of the detector after LDYB (that or he didn't think it'd be needed again). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:57, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
:Yeah, I'm also skeptical. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:36, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

:It works by exposing cells to radiation; Cylons are affect by that as we saw in the Miniseries.  He said that.  When he gave Gina the nuke, he sabotaged his own detector; the detector didn't work after that.  Of course, Baltar was just saying that everyone was "green" anyway, so no one noticed.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 15:24, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

:Dialogue is "by suspending the [warhead's] plutonium in a carbon nanotube matrix, I can create a filter that will preferentially ionize synthetic molecules." [[User:Jewpiterjones|Jewpiterjones]] 00:40, 2 January 2008 (CST)

== Major Pre-Season 3 Revision ==

As with the [[William Adama]] article, I've heavily concised this article (removing mostly unneeded and redundant episode narrative) in the same format to prepare for additional material in season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:18, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

== Succession box ==

Why is the scientific adviser succession box gone? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:08, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:It's not really a formal position, is it? ''Galactica'' must have many qualified scientists, who contribute to varying degrees. Gaeta didn't formally succeed Baltar in that capacity. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 11:11, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
::True. Just noticed [[Felix Gaeta]] doesn't have this box either. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:32, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I remove this and other informal titling (which, to me, is fanwanking) with extreme prejudice. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:15, 17 April 2007 (CDT) <sup>([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])</sup>
::::It looks ugly and the content is debatable... lose it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 13:20, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

== Is he a Cylon - Human Cross ? ==

Gaius is in my mind obviously a human cylon cross.
If a man the age of Saul Tigh is a cylon then there is the potential for there to be offspring.
We learn than Gaius is not from Caprica and actually grew up on Aerelon which he left turning his back on family etc so he is effeectively without family.
This is similar to Sharon Valeri who had memorys of a family who had died but there is no family or family that anyone has known to prove where they come from.

When Gaius went aboard the Cylon ship that was infected with a virus that killed Cylons he was wondering if he was a Cylon himself and he wasn't affected by the virus but we also learn that Sharon who had been pregnant to Helo was resistant because of something she recived from carrying a half human child.

Cylons have some method of sending signals at times like when they reincarnate half Cylons may also have a similiar ability so perhaps the Caprica six's signal somehow found it's way in to Gaius's head.
This seems to me a much more likely thing to happen to a Cylon or a Cylon cross than for a human to imagine it or to somehow be connected to a Cylon.

Add to this Gaius's ability to day dream very vividly which sounds a lot like Cylons projecting and the fact that he can live with the guilt of playing a large part in the initial attack against the colonies.
These things do not seem to be very human traits.

I think that there would definatly be some human-Cylon cross's alive if Saul Tigh is a Cylon because surely alcoholic old Saul has had a few wild nights and could have done a bit of impregnating himself.

Also in the episode Tigh me up, Tigh me down there is opera music playing in Gauis's  lab and it is sung in Italian, it translates to 

"Woe upon your Cylon heart / There's a toaster in your head/ And it wears high heels / Number Six calls to you / The Cylon Detector beckons / Your girlfriend is a toaster / Woe upon your Cylon heart / Alas, disgrace! Alas, sadness and misery! / The toaster has a pretty dress / Red like its glowing spine / Number Six whispers / By your command"

The first sentence "Woe upon your Cylon heart" is a pretty big clue ! {{unsigned|YMMS}}

== Roslin's General Pardon ==

Anyone have any thoughts as to why Baltar didn't claim relief under Roslin's general pardon following the Second Exodus? I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't apply to him. [[User:Jewpiterjones|Jewpiterjones]] 22:26, 1 January 2008 (CST)
:Well, Baltar wasn't in the Fleet at the time the pardon was issued, so it might not apply to him. Also, Baltar wouldn't know about the pardon unless anyone told him. Roslin and friends obviously didn't, and his lawyer may have forgotten about the pardon or not even have known about it in the first place. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 05:52, 2 January 2008 (CST)
::Doesn't Lee point out the pardon in his rant? (blah blah blah... FORGIVEN!... blah blah blah FORGIVEN!... etc) [[User:OTW|OTW]]
:::Yeah, he does. Not sure whether Romo knew about it though. Also, since it was an executive order from the President, it can be applied at her discretion, I guess. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:13, 2 January 2008 (CST)
::::I went back to the episode (thank you, LimeWire) and listened more closely to Roslin's press conference: <br><br>"We are all victims of the Cylons and none of us can be impartial. I certainly can't [be]. So today I am forming a commission on truth and reconciliation to hear our stories and reecord them for posterity. There will be no prosecutions. I am issuing a general pardon for every human in this fleet."<br><br> Assuming the the actual written order said something along the lines of "this only applies if you're on a ship in the fleet right now," I would argue it totally applies to Baltar if I were his lawyer. And even if it did specifically exclude Baltar, I would sure make a fuss over Roslin's dedication to prosecuting Baltar in the face of her "There will be no prosecutions" comment. Either way, it still seems like an incredible oversight on the writers' part for not mentioning this during the trial.[[User:Jewpiterjones|Jewpiterjones]] 18:05, 4 January 2008 (CST)
:::::Yeah, that was always something that suck in my craw as well. However, I believe they all assumed that the Cylons killed Baltar once they left, since they didn't have any reason to keep him around. (After all, none of them knew that the Cylons were searching for Earth as well.) In any event, I happen to agree that this point should've been brought up by Baltar's lawyer during the proceedings, well before Lee's "blah blah blah ... FORGIVEN!" speech. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 18:15, 4 January 2008 (CST)

== Baltar's Presidency ==

Why isn't Baltar still president at the conclusion of his trial? If presidential succession in the Colonies is anything like it is in the US (see 25th amendment), Baltar technically is still president. If the same thing had occurred to a sitting US president, the VP would be president as long as the elected president is incapacitated. There appear to be some parallels between the US and Colonial succession policies, as it falls to acting president Zarek to nominate a VP (presumably to be confirmed by the Quorum of 12 the way a VP would be confirmed by the Senate). However if I understand my Con Law right, as soon as the captured/incapacitated president returned, any appointments of the acting president would be nullified and the elected president would resume office.

In other words, can anyone think of a reason why Baltar isn't entitled to serve out the rest of his term? [[User:Jewpiterjones|Jewpiterjones]] 17:59, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

: The same reason that [[Tom Zarek]] realized he had to step down as president... the government is reliant on the military in order to maintain Fleet coherency. Frankly, Adama would have blown a hole in Baltar's head.  -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:49, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

::If Baltar declared that he was still president and Adama, Roslin and Zarek decided to do things by the book rather than throwing a bloodless coup with owerwhelming public support against the most hated president in Colonial history, he could still be forced to resign through protests, or get assassinated. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:35, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Yeah, but this seems like exactly the kind of legal technicality that would make Apollo do something stupid, or at least cause Baltar to make a fuss. Roslin is currently serving out the remainder of Baltar's term, afterall. Then again, it was never explained past her hallucination/flashback of Baltar and Caprica Six how Roslin went from "None of us can be impartial. There will be no prosecutions" to "KILL BALTAR RAWWWWWWWWR!" so I suppose this level of legal specificity (uhh, she pardoned everyone!) is too much for Mr. Moore. Then again again, this seems like a very viable storyline for season 4. Baltar's crazy cult ladies are gonna need a project![[User:Jewpiterjones|Jewpiterjones]] 02:17, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

::::If you rewatch "Collaborators" very carefully, you'll note that Roslin was very specific in her wording for the pardon. In her wording, it is for every person currently in the Fleet; Baltar is ''not'' in the Fleet. Hell, they don't think he's alive, until Simon the Cylon tells them in "[[A Measure of Salvation]]". Then they get pissed off because he's helping them find Earth, which is a big pet peeve for El Presidente... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 08:58, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Ya, I realize that. I'm the one who authored the "Roslin's General Pardon" section above. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he's still technically president, though. And like I said, her wording in the speech is likely different from the wording of the pardon order itself, which would likely include language along the lines of "all citizens of the Colonies" as opposed to "people who happen to be on board the ships of the fleet this very moment." And I continue to maintain it's a huge oversight on the producers' part to not specifically explain how/why the pardon doesn't apply to Baltar. I'll keep my fingers crossed this becomes an issue next week!!!![[User:Jewpiterjones|Jewpiterjones]] 22:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)