Editing Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

== Promo Image ==

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar.  The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut.  --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason.  If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here.  Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way.  Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup>
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five.  I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group.  They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--[[User:James968|James968]] 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's Apology ==

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a [[Downloaded|face-to-face conflict with eachother before]]. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the [[Final Five]], she would probably be pretty apologetic....[[User:Zach dax|Zach dax]] 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::So much to apologize for.  Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project).  Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list.  Beating up Anders.  Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife.  Only Foster brings nothing to mind.  However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger.  Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all?   But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::I think it was pretty obviously Anders, per Zach's comment and my own at [[Talk:Rapture#Deanna Recognition]]. One of the Five's was responsible for Tigh's eye, anyway. Can we word this more definitively now? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::That's one interpretation... Frankly, once the Final Cylon is revealed, we'd probably have a better idea on who she apologized to. However, I do agree with both Peter and Zach based on the available evidence. She did assault and try to kill Anders on Caprica, and would've succeeded had D'Anna not had her head smashed in with a rock. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 06:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== D'Anna's sketches ==
The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than [[Number Five]] meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== Ironies and references ==

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:
* On several occasions throughout the show, [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
* In "[[33]]", Tigh gives [[William Adama|Adama]] his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
* In "[[Litmus]]", [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
* In the episodes "[[Scattered]]" through "[[The Farm]]", a Cylon has been in command of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]].
* In "[[Fragged]]", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon [[Centurion]]s
* [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] has been [[Caprica Resistance|fighting the Significant Seven]] ever since the [[Fall of the Colonies]].
** When Anders' group ambushes [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
* In "[[Resistance]]", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
* After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw [[Sharon Valerii]] slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
* In "[[Home, Part II]]", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Tom Zarek|Zarek]] and Helo.
* In "[[Final Cut]]", [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] tries to implicate Tigh in the [[Gideon]] incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
* In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
* In "[[The Captain's Hand]]", [[Tory Foster|Tory]] is very closely involved in the plot to hide [[Hera]], who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the [[final five]] on some occasions.
* In "[[Downloaded]]", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
* In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", Tyrol is the first to identify [[Cavil]] as a Cylon.
* Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the [[New Caprica Resistance]].
** They were also members of [[The Circle]] that [[Collaborators|executed]] collaborators after the Second Exodus.
** Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
* In "[[Hero]]", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
* In "[[Rapture]]", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
* In "[[A Day in the Life]]", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than [[Cally Tyrol|Cally]] does.
* In "[[Dirty Hands]]", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a [[Raptor]] crashes into ''[[Colonial One]]'' close to her.
* In the same episode, Tyrol points out to [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
* The irony of ironies occurs in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.
:Great list.  I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies.  RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional.  (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-)  For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list.   We don't know if the F5 were picked during [[Collaborators]] but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies ''and references''"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

=="What about Ellen?"==
I think the line can be interpreted in ways other than how it was interpreted in this page. I for one thought he was more likely questioning whether she (along with all the other things he mentioned) were real. After all, he had just learned he was a Cylon, which meant something about his life was different. 

This is what I thought anywyas, and it makes a little more sense to me. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, we know that Ellen Tigh wasn't a false memory, but Saul Tigh has no way of knowing which parts of his life are false memories or some programmed delusion. I still think it's more likely that he was revisiting his regrets about her death or considering the possibility that Ellen may be a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:43, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::Was mostly just documenting the fact that they don't know yet about their being special Cylons, as revealed in the Podcast.  I have edited the text to be more a reporting of facts than a speculation of his motives.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Perfect! Thanks :) .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

::I believe [[Ellen Tigh]] is a [[Cylon]]. While there is evidence she has a sister in [[Valley of Darkness]], she fits being a Cylon and she is a female that can fit the profile. [[Number Three]] may have apoligized for her being killed by Tigh.--[[User:CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 20.19, 2 July 2007

== Proper Noun or not? ==

I think we need some kind of standard here. Either it's "Final Five" or "Final five", but not both. Same with "Significant Seven". Personally I could go either way, but I think most people tend to capitalize the numbers. That would be easier then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with Final Five. Shane can probably bot-edit once we've reached consensus on the capitalization. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 16:02, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree, since they are sometimes referred only as "The Five" I think the second should be capitalized as well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:17, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Yup, Final Five. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::For consistency's sake, OK. Same for "Significant Seven" (although that is a production term and not an aired canonical one). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:As is stands the article is filled with simply "Five" or "Seven". I think this is very confusing because they can be confused with model numbers. I think they should either have the Final/Significant in front of them at all times, or be changed to lower case. Thoughts? -- [[User:Xlynx|Xlynx]] 11:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Repercussions Against the Seven ==

Once the fourth seasons of Galactica begins, I, for one, would be thrilled to see what sort of consequences would befall the Cavil models for their actions against Saul; particularly their torturing him mentally and physically.

This, of course, would be provided that whatever repressed memories/programming within them, that is Saul and the other three of five remaining, does not altogether supress the personalities we are familiar with.

And what of Sam regarding the Conoy models' mental torture of Starbuck on New Caprica?  Will retribution or amnesty befall Conoy if such a plot or subplot were contemplated by the producers?

I could only imagine how Cally and Kara would react to discovering their spouses are two of the Final Five.  I even wonder moreso how Bill (Admiral Adama) will react toward Saul's true race.

Granted, those last two paragraphs had little to do with the possible retribution or amnesty toward the known seven at the hands of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders; but they are still possibilities worth contemplating. 
- {{unsigned|Murrdawg 316}}
:Yeah, the Fantastic Four are in an awkward position. My personal prediction is that the Colonials will meet a Final Five fleet, sending a Tigh copy as a liaison (or a Tyrol/Anders/Tori copy for that matter). That Final Five fleet could appear pretty early: it could be the fleet that jumped into the Ionian System at the end of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", or they could jump in and defend the Colonials. And we almost forgot to mention Starbuck: she'll have some explaining to do as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 07:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Further Flipping of the original Battlestar Galactica's Script ==

Okay, seeing as such changes in the redefined and more immensely popular version of Battlestar Galactica have occurred as (1) gender reversals of the original Boomer, Starbuck, Cain, and -- if I am not mistaken -- Number Six, (2) making Cain superior in rank to the elder Adama, and (3) making the Cylons self-aware AND humanoid right out of the gate.  Wouldn't it also be logical to give Earth the possible advantage of not only being as advanced if not moreso than the Twelve Colonies of Kobol AND also made both peaceful and military resolutions to problems the Colonials had to learn the hard way with the Cylons where the creation of self-aware, replicated humanoids or androids of their own are concerned?

It would be fascinating to hope that Earth, like and yet unlike the Colonies, not only created artificial life, but acknowledged their sentience and right to exist as an equal and independent race either beside or separate from humans; thus being added contributors to the resolution of the Cylon/Colonial conflict as the series meets its eventual end.

Please let me know what you think.

--[[User:Murrdawg 316|Murrdawg 316]] 05:12, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

:Based on the episode events, there is some truth in your fiction. Ron uses the Original Series as a template, but has obviously grown away from most of the storylines that appeared there (and seriously "warps" what he does use). There is one premise that does permeate throughout the Re-imagined Series, whether the Cylons or humanity itself harass the Fleet: "We have seen the enemy, and they are us." Some [[Sacred Scrolls|elements of return and origin]] (a serious plotline of the show) have bigger complications, not only with [[Hera Agathon]] or the Five, but the [[The Destiny|mysterious destiny and return of Kara Thrace]] and the prophecies and involvement of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 29 April 2007 (CDT) <sup>([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])</sup>

:There are clues that Earth did not have a peaceful creation of its own AIs.   The writings of Pythia who "wrote of the exile and rebirth of the human race" 3,600 years BCH are ambiguous, because they are written in the past tense (implying such an exodus in her past) but also treated as prophecies by the colonials for their future.   There is not supposed to be any time travel in this show, but there is definitely a theme of repeated cycles of history.   However, RDM refuses to answer questions about what Earth is like, though he has worked it out in his internal notes.   All we actually have confirmed about Earth (as opposed to learn from colonial mythology) is that whoever took Starbuck brought her there, that its night sky was displayed in the [[Tomb of Athena]] and that it's real and not too far from the [[Ionian nebula]] on a Galactic scale.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Guys i don't know about you but i would love to see a conflict resolution similar to Issac Asimovs "Foundation". In the first 2
books, 2 major conficts resolve peacefully yet surprisingly amazing!! [[User:Bbm4n|Bbm4n]] 15:46, 5 February 2008 (CST)

== S3 cliffhanger tag ==

Is the presence of this tag still justified (now that the Four Revealed section has been added)? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 07:13, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:It would be cool to just edit it to "events are under scrutiny...". We no longer need to warn people about edit conflicts and such though. But we could also strike it entirely. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
::From my point of view, the tag used to mean the article was no longer correct and/or needed to be cleaned up in light of the [[Crossroads, Part II]] events. That issue has now been resolved. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 08:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The tag (which I created) was primarily to stem the crisis of edit-conflicts, fanwanking, and the like, especially given how the revelations made everything we know almost wrong. It can be removed if the article is now up to date. However, we need to ensure that the [[Humanoid Cylon]] article is noted and how the Final Five contrast and compare, specifically noting how "fundamentally different" they are. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

== Mevenstar's edit ==

Moved from the article. Please discuss here:

: #1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god.  There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus.   They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

== Resurrection and multiple copies ==
There's no conclusive evidence supporting multiple copies or resurrection for the Final Five, but there's no conclusive evidence refuting the possibility either. Is there an interview in which it's implied that they cannot resurrect or don't have additional copies? If not, I would prefer a more neutral statement about the lack of evidence either way. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:23, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
:Sometime in season 3([[Escape Velocity]]) is rumored that after the Significant Seven become aware that the Final Five(well, at least four) reside in the fleet, they propose to cease attacking them as it is unknown if these Cylons have the ability to resurrect.  If they were to die, no where in the Colonial Fleet or Cylon Fleet can the Five, if even, resurrect... Of course, no one knows for sure.  -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 22:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks for pointing it out, I'll add a cite and tweak the note. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Great! :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 01:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

:My theory would be that they have the ability to download, but probably there are no spare bodies waiting for them (if there were, it would be very hard for the seven to not know about them). Question is, what happens if there's a res ship in range but no matching spare body? Is the consciousness frozen, effectively boxed, until a body is provided, or is it lost? [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 13:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:: We know there's a delay between death and download, as seen in "Downloaded" or the New Caprica arc. Therefore one can assume that there is some sort of storage buffer for memories to reside in (temporary memory, a la RAM) until the consciousness can be saved to a permanent medium (the body/husk). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::The 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the F5, in fact they have programming which limits how much they can even think about them.  All they know is they don't have any other models in their resurrection facilities (now destroyed) so they would indeed wonder about whether they can resurrect.  However, *that actually tells us only about the programmed ignorance of the S7, it does not reveal anything about the F5*.  I've been taking to calling them the "original five" as that is a much more correct name, and helps avoid the confusion that comes from taking assumptions from the S7 and applying it to the original five.   As to whether there are other copies, well we see animated copies in white robes in the visions.  And somebody is out there doing stuff, so there are suggestions of other copies out there, but no proof as yet.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 19:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::True. Therefore, based on real-world analogies, it would be logical to assume they can be stored in that buffer indefinitely as long as there is no major power failure aboard the res ship. Maybe they can even be backed up in a process similar to boxing (well, we now know un-boxing is possible, so technically boxing is a kind of backup). On the other hand I think I remember Star Trek teleporter buffers being able to store living beings only for a limited amount of time (which sounds pretty much bull^H^H^H^Hunrealistic if you ask me). So I guess we're stuck with waiting for official version. [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 06:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Cylon ploy ==

The whole notion of the final five being based on the two sketches may have more weight than the musical programming but a still a far cry from being reliable. I belive the "fantasitc four" or the "quartet" (hey it's music that drives them) were manipulated by some Cylon psychic or psychological tampering. I mean how is it that now the Cylons are able to follow Galactica? And how then does the non-ressurrectable final 5 come perilously close to being killed (Tyrol about 5 times), Anders (who knows how many times), Tigh (Abused and tortured by the other cylons)...

No I think the Cylons when they captured these at some point had implanted some tracking beacons on them. When Tigh thought the music was coming from the ship he was close, he probably thought there was a tracking device. 

I admit I can't find a good explanation for the sketches. But 2 out of 4 of them are recognizeable. And because she was a CYLON, she was not meant to see the true faces of the final 5, maybe what she saw was a distortion and false information. 

--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:41, 31 January 2008 (CST)
\
: Sorry, what source do you have for them being 'non-ressurectable?"  Or that the other seven know anything about them, other than the boxed #3?  We have not seen that in the show, and what we have seen -- placing them in the temple of five and Kobol opera house -- marks them as thousands of years old, so if there is a ploy it is almost surely the other way around.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:02, 9 February 2008 (CST)

::Yeah, see the previous section, their ability to resurrect is uncertain. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:37, 14 February 2008 (CST)

:::Well, we do know that FF replacement bodies aren't lying around in a cupboard on the resurrection ships, else D'Anna wouldn't have had to go to all that trouble killing herself over and over. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== Centurions ==
We know the Centurions have shot at members of the Final Five (or at least shot in their general direction), but have they ever actually ''hit'' one of the Final Five? In other words, is it possible that they can detect the Final Five, and are intentionally missing them? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Until the start of series 3 the ''writers'' hadn't even decided who the FF were, so anything before then is irrelevant. I don't think the FF were ever shot in S3, but that's probably more of a [[w:Character shield|Character Shield]] than anything else. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 11:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::If a Centurion harmed one of the Final Five then I think it would be safe to assume that they can't recognize them. The absence of harm would be ambiguous, but it would leave the possibility of recognition open. Either way, I believe more details should be included. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

== When did the writers decide on the final Cylon's identity? ==
IIRC it was at some point during season 2, but I can't find the source for that claim. IMO the timeframe should be mentioned in the notes if we can find a source. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:I believe your answer will be found [[Humanoid Cylon speculation#Clues from Official Sources|here]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 14:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

::My understanding is that they've known who the Fifth is since late Season 1. They had an idea that Tyrol might be one from late Season 2 onwards, hence his weird dream in the Season 2 finale. I'm pretty sure they definitely decided Tyrol was going to be one when they had him discover the Temple of Five on the algae planet. Anders and Tory I think they decided on towards the end of Season 3. According to the recent Comi-Con panel, it was a toss-up between Tigh and Gaeta for the last one, and they didn't fully commit to Tigh until they started shooting the Season 3 finale.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 00:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

== Aaron Douglas spilling the beans ==
Aaron Douglas comes right out in an interview in this month's issue of SFX Magazine (#174) in the UK and explains the backstory of the Penultimate Four in some detail, including their relationship with Earth and the Twelve Colonies. It also shines a light on the history of the 13th Colony and why they left Kobol separately to the others. It's a pretty monumental spoiler, from a viable source (print interviews are valid, right?). Is this worth mentioning in the article? Or should we hold off in case Douglas was incorrect, actively spreading disinformation or his revelations may have been invalidated by later events (the interview took place before the filming of the finale, I believe)?

The spoilers essentially are:

{{spoiltext|That the 13th Tribe consisted of a race of artificial lifeforms who would be the ancient Kobolian equivalent of Cylons. Their relationship to the other 12 tribes on Kobol is not made clear. These Cylons left and settled on, "or made," Earth. Several decades ago, they destroyed themselves in a war and the four survivors made their way to the Twelve Colonies to find out more about the Cycle of Time and to investigate the self-destructive streak that humans have, and passed down to their creations. After infiltrating the Colonies, the P4 shut off their Cylon sides, programming them only to wake up if they were brought close to Earth again. It's tempting to add tons of extrapolation to this, but that's the essence of what he says. No mention is made of the Final Cylon, who it is or why they remain anonymous. No mention is made of a relationship between the P4 and the S7 other than that the S7 hold them in awe, although it could be extrapolated that the P4 were involved in the creation of the S7, or at least in the programming of the humanoid models if not the creation of the modern Cylons (or, in this case, the recreation of the original Cylons). There is also no comment on how the P4 just happened to survive the destruction of Earth, or how they ended up either in the Fleet or among the survivors on Caprica. There is also no information given on how the P4 have simultaneously survived for thousands of years - assuming they are the same as the priests who built the Temple of Five - yet Tigh has noticeably aged during his acquaintence with Adama. Douglas' only further comment was that the P4 do not have multiple copies. Interestingly, I heard a spoiler a while back that Tyrol starts receiving memories from a 'prior incarnation' in the last few episodes: perhaps the P4 don't have copies but they can download into new bodies? Maybe they can download into and take over human bodies, explaining why Tyrol and Anders remember their parents?}}

Anyway, much food for thought there. Just wanted to know if it's a good idea or within the wiki policy to be able to mention this anywhere? --[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 00:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

: Printed interviews are valid. We just need thorough referencing of what was said, however. Further, since these are considered spoilers, they do need to be encased in the proper tags. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 01:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

::Maybe they used to have other copies. Anyway, IMO the main articles this would be relevant to would be [[Final Five]], [[Humanoid Cylon]], [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)]] and [[Cylon History]]. It's also relevant to [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 87: / Line 87: @@
 ::So much to apologize for.  Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project).  Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list.  Beating up Anders.  Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife.  Only Foster brings nothing to mind.  However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger.  Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all?   But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
-:::I think it was pretty obviously Anders, per Zach's comment and my own at [[Talk:Rapture#Deanna Recognition]]. One of the Five's was responsible for Tigh's eye, anyway. Can we word this more definitively now? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
+:::I think it was pretty obviously Anders, per Zach's comment and my own at [[Talk:Rapture#Deanna Recognition]]. One of the Five's was responsible for Tigh's eye, anyway. Can we word this more definitively now? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 ::::That's one interpretation... Frankly, once the Final Cylon is revealed, we'd probably have a better idea on who she apologized to. However, I do agree with both Peter and Zach based on the available evidence. She did assault and try to kill Anders on Caprica, and would've succeeded had D'Anna not had her head smashed in with a rock. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 06:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 240: / Line 240: @@
 ::Maybe they used to have other copies. Anyway, IMO the main articles this would be relevant to would be [[Final Five]], [[Humanoid Cylon]], [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)]] and [[Cylon History]]. It's also relevant to [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
-== Boomer's count of Cylons in fleet ==
-From the article:
-<blockquote>The Boomer copy of Number Eight, interrogated by Baltar, declares there are eight Cylons in the Fleet. Given that these Seven do not interact (or are unwilling to interact) with the Five at the time, the number that Boomer gives is likely other copies of the Seven in disguise.</blockquote>
-At least as likely, it seems to me, is that she was telling the truth when she said she didn't know, and the 8 was just a made up number to save Galen's life. [[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 01:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
-:Hi, Capedia. This is one of those questions we may never fully know because, basically, it's not very relevant to the overall plot of the show (save, maybe, [[Final Five|the last Cylon]].) Your premise, however, is very likely. At the time of the episode's airing, we had yet to know of [[D'Anna Biers]] and [[Brother Cavil]], and [[Saul Tigh]], [[Tory Foster]] and [[Galen Tyrol]] were not yet "outed." [[Samuel Anders]] was not with the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] until the end of season 2, so it's a fair assumption that other copies of the Significant Seven (particularly a [[Number Six]] or so, who are great at disguise, like [[Gina Inviere]], or [[Simon]]s, who were not known by the Fleet except by [[Kara Thrace]] and the [[Caprica Resistance]]) were hiding about.  So, after a fashion, it seems Boomer's "guess" was likely the truth. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)