Editing Talk:Deadlock/Archive 1

-- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC){{newsection link}}

==Title==
''Someone to Watch Over Me'' [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden]. I think this one has been confirmed elsewhere as well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

After the thundering pace of the past two episodes, I have to say this one left me feeling cheated and hollow.  The Ellen Tigh of "No Exit" seemed logical, thoughtful, caring, compassionate...in short, someone who we would expect to do the right thing. She seemed like someone who understood the Big Picture. This one acts just like Ellen Tigh before she was poisoned: petty, vindictive, emotional, and (as Saul put it) vile.  The entire situation of her being angry at Saul seemed forced and contrived and was quite a disappointment.  I might've expected Ellen to be surprised at Saul/Caprica, but not this.  After all, she knows Saul (a) thought she was dead, (b) originally had no idea he was a Cylon, and (c) had no idea Ellen was a Cylon.  It's logically ridiculous to hold him accountable for the decisions he made when he had no knowledge of how things really were.  The old Ellen (the one John/Cavil/One programmed to be vindictive) would've been like this, but that persona was wiped away by her resurrection.  The "real" Ellen was presumably the more logical one we saw in "No Exit."  Why the sudden shift in characterization?  What a let down.

And what's with Bill Adama agonizing over the Cylon goop being put into Galactica?  Granted it's not what he would like, but Adama has always shown himself to be a pragmatist.  He knows he has no choice. He even admits it during his drunken binge with Tigh. The Adama we know from the past hasn't agonized over forced choices once they've been made.  Again, why the sudden shift in character?  It's jarring to the point of unbelievability.

And what's Adama up to giving Baltar guns? Has he lost his mind?  Didn't we just have a bloody mutiny on Galactica over the whole idea of Cylon's integrating into the fleet?  As I recall, Adama was on the pro-Cylon side -- again, because he's a pragmatist, not out of any love of the Cylons.  Now he's acting like he fears the Cylons all over again, despite the fact his XO is one and Tyrol is once again in charge of the deck.  The rebel Cylons basically saved Roslin's life.  They are helping repair the Galactica.  They've practically prostrated themselves at the mercy of the humans.  At what point do our half-blind humans finally realize these Cylons are ''different''?  That they're trying to help?

Gaius's "last ''human'' solution" speech sounds so xenophobic I could've imagined it coming from the dear departed Gaeta.   Something ''must'' be misleading because I can't see Head Six directing Gaius on any kind of anti-Cylon agenda.  If we're just being purposefully mislead in such a ham-handed manner, it's cheap manipulation unworthy of BSG.[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 16:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
* OK, that's weird. Why is your datestamp 7 months from now? [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 01:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* Yes, totally. She does tell the gang specifically that she is still Ellen, too -- since from the Cavil conversation we know the plan for them was to download back with full memories of everything that happened. It's likely that the New Ellen we saw this episode was the writers trying to show that while she is cylon she is very much human as well (loves Saul, jealous of Six, furious that he would sleep with one of "their children" even though he couldn't have known), or that the memories/template of Old Ellen is still strongly with her and may continue to drive some of her reactions. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
== I Don't Agree ==

First of all, Baltar said what he said to Adama just to get the guns. He knew he'd only get them if he appealed to Adama's pro-human side, which he did. He probably meant none of it (Baltar, anit-Cylon? He gave one of the sixes a nuke!).

Secondly, love is far from logical, and Ellen (at least, is implied) is in love with Saul, hence she will not be logical, and cast him down. He's been unfaithful with her daughter, effectively; all logic goes out of the window.

(reply) But what could Baltar have possibly said that could've motivated Adama to give weapons to ''civilians''?  And mot just any civilians but ''brainwashed'' ones?  And while I'll readily concede love is anything but logical, if I had to describe the "No Exit" Ellen with just one adjective, it would be "rational."  But in this episode she's completely irrational.  It's like those stupid romantic comedies where everyone must misbehave in exactly the wrong way at the wrong time in order to draw the wrong conclusion and perform the wrong action...all of which is tidied up in the third act.  BSG is better than that, which is why I'm so disappointed in this episode.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 23:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

== Missing Scene(s) May Explain the Guns ==

I understand that there was at least one scene that was cut in which the problem of internal security on Galactica was discussed. (Don't have the citation handy.) The problem is that, due to loses incurred during the mutiny, the number of marines available for security duty is way below what is needed. One of the solutions discussed was to bring over centurions from the base ship to augment the security force, but that was deemed to be a bad thing (duh). So in that context, Baltar's appeal for guns to defend themselves and the other civilians might seem to Adama to be the lesser of two evils.

But boy, did you see the look of lust on Paula's face as she examined her new semi-auto. That girl's going "postal" one day soon, mark my words. [[User:Strotter|Strotter]] 03:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Found ==

The one question I still can't figure out... is how the hell did Boomer find Galactica in a Raptor? If Boomer could find it so easily, couldn't Cavil?

Just thinking...
[[User:Ghostalker|Ghostalker]]
* Yeah, I agree this was too quickly skipped over, but (a) the Raptor is a colonial unit with compatible beacon/tracking equipment on board and (b) the fleet hasn't jumped yet and it still very close to Earth. So once Boomer told Ellen that the fleet was looking for Earth, Ellen would have started their search there (presumably) and found them easily enough. More to the point, while Cavil knows the Final Five extremely well, he's a child of the 12 Colonies' Centurions and honestly doesn't know where Earth is. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC){{newsection link}}
-==Okay, what happened?==
-Is this the most recent back up? God, I don't even remember all the work I did. Depressing. I supposed all the pages are this way? that is in the state they were in at the time this article was in this stage of development? [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 11:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
-I was wondering the same things.  I added a lot to the analysis and questions area before the sql dump that seemed to have occurred yesterday.  Dang, what happened?! [[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 17:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
-:See [http://battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=50875 this]. Short story: Database crashed, backup restored (but lost a couple days of work). Backups will be made more frequently now and to multiple locations. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
-:: I always Special:Export the full history of any wiki page I do significant work on, after I save any large edit. Started doing it a few months back and haven't looked back since. You'll never need to experience this frustration again, so I recommend it highly. [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 22:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 ==Title==
 ''Someone to Watch Over Me'' [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden]. I think this one has been confirmed elsewhere as well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
-==Behavior of Characters==
 After the thundering pace of the past two episodes, I have to say this one left me feeling cheated and hollow.  The Ellen Tigh of "No Exit" seemed logical, thoughtful, caring, compassionate...in short, someone who we would expect to do the right thing. She seemed like someone who understood the Big Picture. This one acts just like Ellen Tigh before she was poisoned: petty, vindictive, emotional, and (as Saul put it) vile.  The entire situation of her being angry at Saul seemed forced and contrived and was quite a disappointment.  I might've expected Ellen to be surprised at Saul/Caprica, but not this.  After all, she knows Saul (a) thought she was dead, (b) originally had no idea he was a Cylon, and (c) had no idea Ellen was a Cylon.  It's logically ridiculous to hold him accountable for the decisions he made when he had no knowledge of how things really were.  The old Ellen (the one John/Cavil/One programmed to be vindictive) would've been like this, but that persona was wiped away by her resurrection.  The "real" Ellen was presumably the more logical one we saw in "No Exit."  Why the sudden shift in characterization?  What a let down.
@@ Line 21: / Line 12: @@
 Gaius's "last ''human'' solution" speech sounds so xenophobic I could've imagined it coming from the dear departed Gaeta.   Something ''must'' be misleading because I can't see Head Six directing Gaius on any kind of anti-Cylon agenda.  If we're just being purposefully mislead in such a ham-handed manner, it's cheap manipulation unworthy of BSG.[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 16:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, that's weird. Why is your datestamp 7 months from now? [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 01:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-* * Good question.  I've no idea --[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
+* Yes, totally. She does tell the gang specifically that she is still Ellen, too -- since from the Cavil conversation we know the plan for them was to download back with full memories of everything that happened. It's likely that the New Ellen we saw this episode was the writers trying to show that while she is cylon she is very much human as well (loves Saul, jealous of Six, furious that he would sleep with one of "their children" even though he couldn't have known), or that the memories/template of Old Ellen is still strongly with her and may continue to drive some of her reactions. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-* Yes, totally . She does tell the gang specifically that she is still Ellen, too -- since from the Cavil conversation we know the plan for them was to download back with full memories of everything that happened. It's likely that the New Ellen we saw this episode was the writers trying to show that while she is cylon she is very much human as well (loves Saul, jealous of Six, furious that he would sleep with one of "their children" even though he couldn't have known), or that the memories/template of Old Ellen is still strongly with her and may continue to drive some of her reactions. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-* MORE -- Re: Baltar, had to watch it again, but what he is saying is that while the fleet in on a path to be blended, the populace isn't fully ready to accept this fate just yet. That Baltar can put together a civilian militia to keep order where the marines aren't is the last choice Adama has before he finally turns to the Baseship for mustering a police force (the implied non-human solution). And at this point he's right, there's no way the fleet would accept Cylons acting as police. So it's not an anti-Cylon agenda at all, he's just trying to buy Adama some time. Bill's agonizing because up to this point he's seen Humans and Rebel Cylons as allies, but separate nations. The hope has been that Humans ultimately rebuild the Human race, but the direction is now clearly showing both sides need each other and that instead Humans (and Cylons) will be building a new Hybrid race. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 04:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-*I see the Ellen Tigh of "No Exit" as more reserved and circumspect, and less expressive, perhaps because she is a prisoner of Cavil and knows how he detests human emotions and behavior. She has every reason to fear he might cut her brain open, or box her, and does not wish to provoke him. Once freed, however, and once she learns of Saul's affair with Six, she may simply be acting freer to express her true, inner Ellen. -- [[User:Dogger55|Dogger55]] 14:34, 17 July 2011 (EDT).
 == I Don't Agree ==
@@ Line 33: / Line 19: @@
 Secondly, love is far from logical, and Ellen (at least, is implied) is in love with Saul, hence she will not be logical, and cast him down. He's been unfaithful with her daughter, effectively; all logic goes out of the window.
-* But what could Baltar have possibly said that could've motivated Adama to give weapons to ''civilians''?  And mot just any civilians but ''brainwashed'' ones?  And while I'll readily concede love is anything but logical, if I had to describe the "No Exit" Ellen with just one adjective, it would be "rational."  But in this episode she's completely irrational.  It's like those stupid romantic comedies where everyone must misbehave in exactly the wrong way at the wrong time in order to draw the wrong conclusion and perform the wrong action...all of which is tidied up in the third act.  BSG is better than that, which is why I'm so disappointed in this episode.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 23:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
+(reply) But what could Baltar have possibly said that could've motivated Adama to give weapons to ''civilians''?  And mot just any civilians but ''brainwashed'' ones?  And while I'll readily concede love is anything but logical, if I had to describe the "No Exit" Ellen with just one adjective, it would be "rational."  But in this episode she's completely irrational.  It's like those stupid romantic comedies where everyone must misbehave in exactly the wrong way at the wrong time in order to draw the wrong conclusion and perform the wrong action...all of which is tidied up in the third act.  BSG is better than that, which is why I'm so disappointed in this episode.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 23:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 == Missing Scene(s) May Explain the Guns ==
@@ Line 40: / Line 26: @@
 But boy, did you see the look of lust on Paula's face as she examined her new semi-auto. That girl's going "postal" one day soon, mark my words. [[User:Strotter|Strotter]] 03:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-* If this is indeed a missing scene then it starts to make a little sense.  Still, I have a hard time believing Galactica's security forces were so decimated that Adama is willing to turn over weapons to untrained, unpredictable, untrusted civilians.  Galactica has over a thousand personnel.  Surely there are better options than giving guns to cultists. --[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 == Found ==
@@ Line 50: / Line 34: @@
 [[User:Ghostalker|Ghostalker]]
 * Yeah, I agree this was too quickly skipped over, but (a) the Raptor is a colonial unit with compatible beacon/tracking equipment on board and (b) the fleet hasn't jumped yet and it still very close to Earth. So once Boomer told Ellen that the fleet was looking for Earth, Ellen would have started their search there (presumably) and found them easily enough. More to the point, while Cavil knows the Final Five extremely well, he's a child of the 12 Colonies' Centurions and honestly doesn't know where Earth is. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-** (b) holds more water - if Cavil had a Raptor for Boomer to steal, and that alone were enough to find Earth, he'd have already done it. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 07:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
-* This one had me, too, until I figured out that Ellen would know where Earth was. Sharon would've programmed a jump destination somewhere safe so she could quickly jump away.  Once there, Ellen could give Sharon the coordinates for Earth and they could jump there.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
-== Can we unlock this page now? ==
-Can we unlock this page?  It's been two days since the episode was aired. -- [[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 01:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
-:But it is unlocked. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 01:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
-::It wasn't locked when I got to it, and I've removed the spoiler and locked tags from the page. Have at it. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
-== Piano in the bar ==
-Kara asks the bartender "When'd you get a piano" and doesn't get an answer, just a strange look, but there is a piano in the background. Is it possible the piano and its player are just a manifestation like Baltar's head-6? In "Someone to Watch Over Me" the piano player is supposed to help her find out who she is. She also has a vision of a little girl playing a piano in a ship bay. Is the piano player Daniel, or her father, or both? [[User:Carlodrum|Carlodrum]] 04:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
-== How Tyrol ID'd Boomer ==
-Just in my opinion, when he saw her, he wasn't looking for some 'tell' that showed she was Boomer. ...He knew when he saw her land that Raptor.  Getting her to acknowledge him was just a confirmation.
-Before the episode even aired, I envisioned  a scene where Tyrol and maybe Kelly watched an approaching Raptor come in with furrowed brows, then when it landed, cursed and called for security.
-== Dialog Correction ==
-In Act 4, there is a mistake in the summary, as well in the closed captioning done for the show, in the scene with Tigh and Adama.  It is described as:   Tigh says that "it's not like that." Adama agrees, embraces and comforts him.   Listening closely reveals that Tigh says "It's not like '''Zack'''" refering to Lee's brother/Adama's other son, who died in adulthood during military training.
-:I'll update it. In the future, [[BW:BOLD|be bold]]; feel free to make the change yourself. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 15:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
-:Closed captioning can be VERY inaccurate. Better to wait for DVD subtitles than to rely on them. I still don't understand why Tigh would bring Zack up. You know who he is, and I do, but wouldn't that probably lose the average viewer? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
-:The text from the script says:
-::"'''Tigh''': "It's not like with Zak. It's not. I know that. But ... it's ..."
-:So I was wrong. I still think that's a reach for most people to follow, but I guess they didn't dumb it down. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:16, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
-== Why was a random Eight and Six urging Ellen to go to the Baseship and jump away and not Caprica Six and Athena? ==
-In my opinion, the answer that Athena would never agree to abandon the fleet is not the main reason that Athena was not at Anders's site.
-I think that the random Eight and Six were representives from the rebel basestar and came to the Battlestar Galactica along with Tory Foster when the first meeting of the Final Five was organized. I think they just didn't invite Caprica Six and Athena, because the rebel cylons had already made their decision and asked only the Final Five to join them and abandon the fleet.
-Later when Ellen Tigh confronted Saul Tigh, in my opinion, Ellen wanted Caprica Six to be present because she needed Caprica Six for her plot to humiliate and hurt Saul Tigh by pretending to vote for abandoning the fleet. [[User:JohnJ|JohnJ]] 19:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
-== Significance of the name "Gaius?" ==
-I was reading this article -
-http://www.portfolio.com/views/columns/2007/10/15/Charity-Makes-Wealth
-"Old Honest poses this riddle to the innkeeper Gaius: “A man there was, tho’ some did count him mad, / The more he cast away, the more he had.” Gaius solves the riddle thus: “He that bestows his Goods upon the Poor / Shall have as much again, and ten times more.”"
-Somehow I remember our Gaius saying something similar when he was handing out food.
-== Act Break? ==
-Is the podcast act break wrong, or is the summary? In transcribing the podcast the stuff with the meeting of the final five at the top of act two (in the summary) is still in act one of the podcast. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 23:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
-:The act 2-3 break appears to be different as well. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
-::If somebody could check this (on Hulu maybe?), I'd appreciate it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 01:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)