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| This should probably be merged with content from [[God (RDM)]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:26, 30 December 2005 (EST) | | This should probably be merged with content from [[God]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:26, 30 December 2005 (EST) |
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| :I concur and will likely begin such at some point today if it's not done before I come back to it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:28, 30 December 2005 (EST) | | :I concur and will likely begin such at some point today if it's not done before I come back to it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:28, 30 December 2005 (EST) |
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| I know that "Cylons view the worship of multiple gods as blasphemeous against their God." is true. I believe it is specifically attested in [[33]], but I wanted to be sure before claiming such. Can anyone verify that or any other particular source? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:27, 30 December 2005 (EST) | | I know that "Cylons view the worship of multiple gods as blasphemeous against their God." is true. I believe it is specifically attested in [[33]], but I wanted to be sure before claiming such. Can anyone verify that or any other particular source? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:27, 30 December 2005 (EST) |
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| :[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/mov/bsg_del_112_regret.mov Deleted scene], Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:34, 30 December 2005 (EST) | | :[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/mov/bsg_del_112_regret.mov Deleted scene], Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:34, 30 December 2005 (EST) |
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| :Also noted as "false gods" by Sharon Valerii in [[Home, Part I]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:39, 30 December 2005 (EST) | | :Also noted as "false gods" by Sharon Valerii in [[Home, Part I]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:39, 30 December 2005 (EST) |
| ::Part II, FWIW. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:05, 31 December 2005 (EST) | | ::Part II, FWIW. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 31 December 2005 (EST) |
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| ==Quote Collecting== | | ==Quote Collecting== |
| At present, I think the best thing to do here to ensure an accurate and well-cited entry is to scan episode transcripts for relevant comments and group them by topic and source, similar to the way we did [[Sacred Scrolls]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:47, 30 December 2005 (EST) | | At present, I think the best thing to do here to ensure an accurate and well-cited entry is to scan episode transcripts for relevant comments and group them by topic and source, similar to the way we did [[Sacred Scrolls]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:47, 30 December 2005 (EST) |
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| ===Natasi=== | | ===Natasi=== |
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| *If the Cylons have access to more historical documents than the Colonials, they must have received them from a third party. Who? | | *If the Cylons have access to more historical documents than the Colonials, they must have received them from a third party. Who? |
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| --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 20:03, 1 January 2006 (EST) | | --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:03, 1 January 2006 (EST) |
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| : Perhaps they wrote their own? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:00, 1 January 2006 (EST) | | : Perhaps they wrote their own? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:00, 1 January 2006 (EST) |
| ::I do not believe that at any time during "Home, Part II" we ever heard the Cylons say that they "have access to a broader set of documents and scripture than the Colonials". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 January 2006 (EST) | | ::I do not believe that at any time during "Home, Part II" we ever heard the Cylons say that they "have access to a broader set of documents and scripture than the Colonials". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 January 2006 (EST) |
| :::Boomer: "I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures." --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:29, 2 January 2006 (EST) | | :::Boomer: "I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:29, 2 January 2006 (EST) |
| ::::It's also possible that she was simply referring to historical evidence available to the Colonials but ignored by the more religious of them (a situation similar to many fundamentalists of today). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 10:53, 2 January 2006 (EST) | | ::::It's also possible that she was simply referring to historical evidence available to the Colonials but ignored by the more religious of them (a situation similar to many fundamentalists of today). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 10:53, 2 January 2006 (EST) |
| :::::Fair point. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:46, 2 January 2006 (EST) | | :::::Fair point. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:46, 2 January 2006 (EST) |
| ::Further, they do not "have a somewhat opaque ontology"; just because someone didn't understand what he was saying doesn't make it "opaque"; what Leoben was saying were in fact Gnostic and/or vaguely Buddhist ideas, etc. And remember, the Cylons believe that "God is love". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 January 2006 (EST) | | ::Further, they do not "have a somewhat opaque ontology"; just because someone didn't understand what he was saying doesn't make it "opaque"; what Leoben was saying were in fact Gnostic and/or vaguely Buddhist ideas, etc. And remember, the Cylons believe that "God is love". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 January 2006 (EST) |
| :::If you can explain Leoben's stream-imagery to me in terms of Gnostic and/or Buddhist ideas, I would be delighted. I find them impenetrable. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:31, 2 January 2006 (EST) | | :::If you can explain Leoben's stream-imagery to me in terms of Gnostic and/or Buddhist ideas, I would be delighted. I find them impenetrable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:31, 2 January 2006 (EST) |
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| == Why couldn't they just mass-produce? ==
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| I think the Cylons were a bit stupid if they thought they could only reproduce biologicaly. They're robots, so why didn't they just decided to follow the 'be fruitful and mutiply' commandment by just mass-producing themselves using factories? That would fufill that commandment very well. And why do they have a reilgon in the first place? That's not very robot-like. Surely industrial production could too count as a form of reproduction? I can't see the logic behind this.
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| : They mimic human form -- and thus everything about it, right down to how we reproduce -- because they believe that it will bring them closer to their God. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)
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| ::"Not very robot-like"? Anything that gains a high enough level of sentience will ponder such questions as the existence of the soul and life after death. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:07, 6 March 2006 (CST)
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| ==Historical Comparison==
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| The Merovingian removed this passage: "One observer can easily compare the religious conflict between the Colonials and the Cylons to the rise and spread of Christianity and Judaism in Europe during the final days of the [[Wikipedia: Roman Empire | Roman Empire]] and the dethronement of the religious beliefs the Greeks and the Romans believed in." because he felt it was a bit too POV. I don't agree, though it could certainly use cleaning-up grammatically speaking. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:13, 10 April 2006 (EST)
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| :In my opinion, it's not that it's POV; it's just a very poor analogy. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 19:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
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| ::I think it should be removed, because it is a POV poor analogy. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:14, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
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| == View of Humanity ==
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| The view of humanity stuff needs to be cited (obviously I know where it came from, and it is mentioned in edit summary, but it needs to be in the article). Also, it's missing the later parts about "Maybe we were wrong about that", and the co-existing, and then the Earth quest. Just leaving the parts about killing the humans off is an incomplete picture. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:44, 9 November 2006 (CST)
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| Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies.
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| Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
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| suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
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| Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
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| Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
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| or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.
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| 12 cylons = 12 olympians
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| Final Five - Temple of Five
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| The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
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| that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
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| like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.
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| Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
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| enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
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| With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
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| the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
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| Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
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| would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
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| but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
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| Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
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| while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.
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| For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
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| and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
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| and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.
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| While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
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| Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
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| refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
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| My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
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| perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
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| lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
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| refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
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| developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.
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| And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
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| leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
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| fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
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| yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
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| cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
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| heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
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| member of a known pantheon of gods.
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| Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
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| (greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
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| But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
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| Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
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| heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
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| hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
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| space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
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| Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
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| Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
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| where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
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| flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
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| Wonder Woman.
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| The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
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| wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
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| advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
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| Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
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| higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
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| realism of the show.
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| The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
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| new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
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| metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
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| sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man.
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| ==Different religous viewpoints per model?==
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| Ok we know the Cavil models are atheist. We know Sixes are particularly devout. Three's seem to question their faith. Leoben makes comments like we are all god (gnosticism?). I think Boomer implied Simon (or was it Doral) couldn't bear to speak God's name. I think none of the models actually agree on what their god is. Cavil's are cynical, Simon's are empirical, Sixes are zealots, Leoben's are into mysticism or some such, Three's seemed to be in spiritual turmoil. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 25 January 2007.
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| Cavil, his atheism sounds more like a speech from Lucifer discrediting god. The idea that the "jealous god" and the "one whose name cannot be spoken" are one and the same, and perhaps the Cylon God is a fun line to pursue. Why would the human then have such reverence for the temple of Five and those five priests, if they were followers of a fallen go? If I'm not mistaken isn't the name "Yahweh" or "Jahovah" sort of not supposed to be spoken?
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| I'm of the faith we have 10 cylon models that represent these archetypes of humanity, aka the gods or Lords of Kobol. Makes perfect sense for the colonies gods to be archetypes as well. You see that all the time in mythology. But in the series the two "top spots" of this a-typical archetype pantheon have human avatars Zeus/Adama and Laura/Hera. So the two leading cylon positions are based on judeo christian "super powers" that they would call God and Satan. And if that is the case...then Cavil, as #2, is number two, to you know who.
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| Different religious view points are hitting you from every possible angle on this show.
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| Now Has anyone taken to to the worship of RDM I wonder? {{unsigned|Mevenstar}}
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| :Hi, Mevenstar. You're seeing another layer that the Cylons didn't appear to anticipate. They moved to human form and modeled themselves to twelve human archetypes to become closer to God. However, they didn't take into account that each archetype would have differing ''interpretations'' on the nature of God. As a result (among other things, I'm sure), there is a mysterious rift with five Cylons ([[Final five]]), and increasing [[Number Three|discord between machines]] that are no longer just machines, but individuals. As you saw in "[[Downloaded]]" and in "[[Rapture]]", the Cylons have only one answer to when a fellow Cylon does not meet the status quo of behavior, who behaves way outside what that model does characteristically: [[boxing|box 'em.]] (Be sure to sign your comments!) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:56, 22 February 2007 (CST)
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| :FWIW, Yahweh's name is indeed not supposed to be spoken, except once a year by the High Priest. It ''is'' written out, but Jewish people substitute it for Adonai (=Lord) or other names. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:33, 22 February 2007 (CST)
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| == To Merge with God... ==
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| ...is surely a good thing (like [[memoryalpha:V'Ger|V'Ger]] did), but in this case I'm asking about combining [[God (RDM)]] (recently disambig-ed) with this article. I think to avoid confusion we should use [[God (RDM)]] as the article, with this article name as a redirect. I don't see a lot of difference between them, although there is some analysis here that could be added or omitted altogether. Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:00, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
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| :It's a somewhat large article though. Combining them could make it a bit overloaded. However, we could also cut down on the listing of mentions of ´"God" as that doesn't really do much anyways. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:00, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
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| ::I've generally thought that the quotes were a hedge not to discuss the subject, too. I'll make a more detailed comparison and try to excise or swap about data between the articles to keep them on-topic and over-repetitive. Unless the quotes have any direct significance to how the Cylons view or worship him, I'll likely start striking some things for concision. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:12, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
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| :::Update on [[God (RDM)]] done. I moved a section from there to here as it was more apropos for the comparisons between God and Colonial polythesism. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:09, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
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