Editing Talk:Cylon Civil War/Archive 1

I think until otherwise we should not even have this page. It's only implied right now. Anyone else? [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 12:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:Plus, until it is developed further, there is nothing that isn't already said elsewhere. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Restored ==
Per discussion on the talk page of [[Talk:Battle of the Basestars]]. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

== No battle box? ==

There's definitely a battle, so why don't we have a battle box? Should we give the battle it's own page? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 21:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:It's just too large to be put in one sub section. There will be more content later. Secondly, it isn't really that useful. Why not get away from the automatism "this needs to have a battle box, because that's how we always did this"? The advantage of having this in an own article, is to put story points that are spread out over a dozen or so episodes into context and see how they relate to each other. The causes for the conflict and the participants' motivations are really far more interesting than another dry recitation of how many ships are involved and how many people die (which is only like 20 seconds screen time) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:Basically, I agree with Serenity on this. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

== Rebels? ==

<s>Is it "fair" to describe the Natalie Faction as "rebels", considering this is basically a 50/50 split of the Cylon? Perhaps we should use something like "Natalie Faction" and "Cavil Faction" as descriptive terms until we get something more concrete. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 14:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</s>

Strike my last, I just read the references [[User:OTW|OTW]] 14:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

== Natalie faction strength? ==
It seems that the Natalie faction has been reduced in strength to the single basestar. Should we note this? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 16:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
:Only one Basestar that we know of, but we can't rule out there being other survivors out there somewhere until something is said to that effect. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

== Civil War and the battles box ==

For consistency, I think it would be best if we:
* moved the information about the [[Battle of the Basestars]] (or whatever we're gonna call it, [[Cylon Rebel Ambush]] could also work) to that article
* put that battle, along with the [[Battle of the Resurrection Hub]] we're likely to get, in the "Cylon Civil War" section of the battles template
* reserve this article for information about the Civil War itself and {{tl|mainarticle}} the individual battles (there might very well be more of them in the second half of Season 4: with the Cylons being mortal and the Colonials controlling a baseship, they might adopt a more aggressive style of warfare)
--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 18:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
:The thing is that there doesn't need to be an article about the first battle. It would just have a battle box and two lines (though I agree I that "Cylon rebel ambush" is infinitely better than "Battle of the basestars"). That's the reason why it was consolidated into this article. We don't need an automatism to create a new battle page every time two shots are fired. I'm not saying that it's not important, just that there isn't much to write about it. I agree that any substantial engagement down the line can have an own article that can be linked to here. It just depends on how much there is to say about it. Just like with any other off-short article really. Things get own articles when they become too big for the main article.
:Another point is that battle pages by themselves aren't that interesting. They just retell plot, albeit in more detail. Reading in detail about ''real'' battles is something different, because you don't see them on screen and often only know the surrounding circumstances. But with fictional battles, those circumstances and the context of the battles is generally the meat. And in this case, there is a narrative that clearly connects all of them. Which is what this page is about. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
::You're right that the Cylon rebel ambush would have very little meat because we didn't see the actual battle and therefore know little about it, so it's better off as a section of this article. I expect the Battle of the Resurrection Hub to result in more text than other battles (even the planned ones such as the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]] or the [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid]]), because the mission involves boarding the Hub (in addition to putting the Vipers in the baseship, taking out the Hub's FTL, battling the hostile basestars and destroying the Hub), and [[:Image:4x09 - The Hub - Promo 1 - cropped.jpg|this picture]] suggests that's not gonna happen without trouble. But I guess we'll have to wait till after that battle before deciding whether to give it its own article or make this page span the whole thing, à la [[Battle of Kobol (RDM)]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 20:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 24: / Line 24: @@
 For consistency, I think it would be best if we:
-* moved the information about the [[Battle of the Basestars]] (or whatever we're gonna call it, Cylon Rebel Ambush could also work) to that article
+* moved the information about the [[Battle of the Basestars]] (or whatever we're gonna call it, [[Cylon Rebel Ambush]] could also work) to that article
 * put that battle, along with the [[Battle of the Resurrection Hub]] we're likely to get, in the "Cylon Civil War" section of the battles template
 * reserve this article for information about the Civil War itself and {{tl|mainarticle}} the individual battles (there might very well be more of them in the second half of Season 4: with the Cylons being mortal and the Colonials controlling a baseship, they might adopt a more aggressive style of warfare)
@@ Line 31: / Line 31: @@
 :Another point is that battle pages by themselves aren't that interesting. They just retell plot, albeit in more detail. Reading in detail about ''real'' battles is something different, because you don't see them on screen and often only know the surrounding circumstances. But with fictional battles, those circumstances and the context of the battles is generally the meat. And in this case, there is a narrative that clearly connects all of them. Which is what this page is about. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 ::You're right that the Cylon rebel ambush would have very little meat because we didn't see the actual battle and therefore know little about it, so it's better off as a section of this article. I expect the Battle of the Resurrection Hub to result in more text than other battles (even the planned ones such as the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]] or the [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid]]), because the mission involves boarding the Hub (in addition to putting the Vipers in the baseship, taking out the Hub's FTL, battling the hostile basestars and destroying the Hub), and [[:Image:4x09 - The Hub - Promo 1 - cropped.jpg|this picture]] suggests that's not gonna happen without trouble. But I guess we'll have to wait till after that battle before deciding whether to give it its own article or make this page span the whole thing, à la [[Battle of Kobol (RDM)]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 20:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::Yeah. I'm certainly not saying that we need to include all the battles of the war on this page. If others have some more substance, they should get an own article. We'll see about that when it comes to it :) But the point of the initial ambush isn't really the fighting in of itself, but the reasons for it, which are in turn the reasons for the whole conflict. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 20:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
-== Stars not relevant? ==
-Just taking what we see as is, the star pattern either mans the Cylon battle takes place at Jupiter, or that the graphics crew, after 3.5 years of using random stars, just decided to throw in Earth stars for this battle.     We don't know which yet, but for now we should take it at face value.  The only reddish gas giant from which those star patterns appear is Jupiter, no other planet is even remotely possible.    For now, we should document what we see, and leave interpretations about graphics department mistakes for when they can be confirmed.  Not that they don't make such mistakes, the map in "Torn" has to be one, but that's because we now know they weren't here in that episode.   We don't know that yet for the battle.
-And based on that, the fact that Cavil picks Jupiter as the site of the battle seems about as relevant to the story of the cylon civil war as you can get.  So why edit it out?--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 01:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
-:The observation seems more specific to an episode, rather than contributing to an explanation or narrative of the subject at hand, the Cylon Civil War.  Are we sure it is Jupiter?  There have been a lot of Earth-like planets, such as the Twelve Colonies, Kobol, New Caprica, so it's not unreasonable to think that there are other gas giants that bear resemblences to our own, such as Neptune, Uranus, and yes, Jupiter.  The planet has not been identified to have been in the same solar system as Earth, so this assertion is a matter of inference, and such observations, if included in the article, have been in practice put in a separate notes or interpretation section in the majority of articles.  Now, if you can tie the significance of Jupiter to the Cylon Civil War itself, that would be another story.  As it is, your observation would surely be relevant in an article chronicling the journey to Earth, for example.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 02:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
-:: No, there is only one planet that looks vaguely like that and has those stars, and it is Jupiter.  As I said, no other planet is remotely possible, no way, no how.  The only other explanation is a mistake by the graphics dept.  It is not a matter of inference.   The reason it applies to the war is that Cavil selected the site, and even said there was an accessible server there.   That's quite mysterious, and even more mysterious are the fact that Starbuck is given a vision of this planet before the battle, and that she's sitting just a very short distance away just after the battle.   It's too much of a coincidence, Cavil must have chosen Jupiter for a reason.   Or it's a graphics mistake, but if so, it's an odd one.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 06:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
-:::I think the question of the star patterns and Jupiter skirts the main question: whether or not it is Jupiter, how does it relate to the Cylon Civil War.  If you can explain it in the article, rather than just mention it as an aside, then feel free to do so.  If it figures in Cavil's plans, then how and why? -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 09:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
-::::We don't know.  However, if, as shown, it is Jupiter, and Cavil picked it, then that's no coincidence, which is why it seems appropriate to document it.   Cavil saying, "Let's meet up for an ambush, I dunno, how about this spot which happens to be the ancient homeworld" is just too strange to not document.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 02:30, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
-:::::The star pattern has been noted in the analysis section of the article for the episode "[[The_Ties_That_Bind#Analysis|The Ties That Bind]]". -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 04:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)