Editing Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

==Promo Pics==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:54, 27 February 2007 (CST)
: Tried to go there, but I get the following: Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 on this server. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 08:09, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
::NBC cracked down on websites publishing the highres press photos.. They are still here: http://galacticastation.com/episodes/s3guide/318.htm --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

== Predictions ==

I was too busy drooling over my favorite [[Number Three|Suicide Girl]] to spend much time in front of the ol' crystal ball this week, but I got in a little bit of quality future-gazing at the last minute.
*[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Beau]] locks the Battlestar Wiki, causing widespread panic throughout the Fleet! Without the ability to edit, how are our remaining 41,000 citizens supposed to comment on the shocking accuracy of their beloved seer's predictions? Riots! Fire! Premarital sex! And that's all just the teaser! In the end, however, they will make due and will remember that editing a wiki isn't everything. :)
*Back in February, my crystal ball told me that the trial of Baltar would begin. Obviously, the ball had a little too much [[New Caprican loco weed|Fleet wheat]] and tossed me a prediction for this episode instead. Yep, blame it on others, that's me. The Admiral would be so disappointed.
*We've all seen Caprica and Tigh exchanging bruises in the preview for this episode. This will be the only Cylon-on-human violence we see in the entire episode, and probably in the rest of the season.
*Baltar publically reveals during his trial that Roslin's cancer was cured by Hera's blood and that Hera is half-Cylon. The Fleet goes nuts. Baltar also reveals the plot to steal the Presidency and how it was covered up after the election. I've got a feeling he'll also reveal some shady goings-on during the year on New Caprica that we haven't seen.
*As the trial goes on, Tigh and Zarek are in charge of the military and civilian branches of the Fleet, respectively. They've never been fans of each other and now they're going to lock horns like never before.
*At the end of the episode, the Fleet jumps to a new system. Something sparks a huge shouting match between Zarek and Tigh, during which Gaeta detects... something. I'm not sure what it is, but it's the last marker on the road to Earth. Unfortunately, the Cylons are already there. After reorganizing in the wake of boxing an entire model, the Cylon expeditionary fleet has actually gotten ahead of the Colonials in just a few jumps. Baltar's trial is interrupted by this event and the episode ends on a cliffhanger.
After nearly half a season without them, the Cylons return in a big way this episode. While I'd personally like Baltar's trial to remain as human as possible, I'm afraid you can't have a season finale without the Cylons making a grand appearance and leaving everything hanging in the balance. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:57, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

:(*snif*) No mention of Galvatron? Is he being left to rust somewhere in space by something more evil than he: ''lawyers?'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Sorry, guys. I thought Galvatron's presence would be obvious, keeping previous predictions in mind. He's in his new Pretender disguise: Romo Lampkin. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 23:58, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'm looking forward to Cylon presence, we haven't seen any Cylons (save for Athena and Caprica-Six) since "Rapture". Or have we? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 14:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Some thoughts:
Could the strange noises and/or music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster hear be early radio waves from Earth?  Are they close enough (within 100 light years) that the earlier transmissions from 1900-present are reaching Galactica?  We have been broadcasting radio waves into space for over 100 years.  If this is in any way correct, the closer they get to Earth, the more recent the broadcast will be.  Tigh says the sounds are coming from the ship...  the only thing I can figure is if they indeed ARE radio waves, the ship would have to act as an antenna of some sort to pick up the signal.  Just a guess, but to me the sounds were old, scratchy, and very much reminiscent of earlier radio transmission.  This also does not explain why Tigh, Anders, and Foster are the only ones who hear it (unless they are 3 of the 5 cylons, of course complete with built-in AM/FM tuners).  --[[User:Captain Finlay|Captain Finlay]] 15:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with the latter option, the ship (or something in the ship) acting as an antenna is not possible AFAIK. Tigh listening to Earth broadcasts is a nice idea, but I think such signals would be extremely weak, or at least too weak for Tigh's wireless. The episode does indeed suggest that Tigh, Anders and Foster have something in common, but it would be strange if that turns out to be Cylonness. Anders and Foster can very well be Cylons, but Tigh has a confirmed history going way back. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==403 Error==
<s>I keep getting a 403 error when I try to look at the Crossroads Pt. 1 page.</s> <s>Never mind it's being cooperative now.</s> Or not. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:27, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

== When will this article be unlocked ? ==
I know the whole site has been unlocked, but this article appears to still be in lockdown mode.  How long will we need to wait before permissions are restored?--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 15:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:[http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/?p=115 Thus spake Joe]:
:"Even after this, I expect the wiki to be slow and may even have to protect “Crossroads, Part I” from editing even after the site-wide lockdown."
:The day after an episode we've been getting hammered, and I suspect today is no exception. I expect that the traffic will die down enough such by tomorrow that Joe will unlock this page as well. If there's anything you feel needs to be added to the page while it is locked, you could add it here in the talk age (and copy & paste it later, or somebody else will), or create a subpage of your user page (or just a subsection of your user page) to store the thoughts/ideas/analysis/notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Performance is still extremely sluggish. It works as this very moment, but it's up and down all the time. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Shane unlocked the article. I was honestly going to unlock it tomorrow morning, but I don't see how that would have really helped more not. At any rate, the article's unlocked. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

==Anders in Uniform==
Hey is Anders a pilot now cause they called him a nick name in the teaser --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 17:25, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:No, they called him a [[nugget]], which is Colonial Fleet slang for a pilot trainee.  But since you've mentioned that, does anyone have a screen grab of this for Anders' page?--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 23:56, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

I know what a nugget is but you would think Anders would be a MArine considering his history in the Resistance --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 18:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378

== Act 1 item ==

Since it's not editable, I'm posting here....

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Lee Adama enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices a cup and decanter in CIC, ostensibly belonging to Col. Tigh and smells it. His expression suggests the presence of alcohol. 

I rewatched this scene, because I got something different out of it. I think this should read:

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama, Lee Adama, Col. Tigh, and President Rosline are discussing the baseships.  Someone brings Roslin a decanter of tea?  Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Roslin walk to the Weapons Control station to collect herself.   Lee Adama notices the cup belonging to Roslin; sniffs it and detects chamalla.

I think that Lee is taking Romo's lesson's to heart from the last episode and connecting Roslin's erratic behavior with her chamalla tea. -- [[User:Disputin|Disputin]] 17:31, 19 March 2007

:Agreed. At first I thought it was Tigh's too, but later it's explained as how he made the connection to Roslin still taking chamalla. That it's sweetened with sugar to mask the taste is explained by the oracle on New Caprica. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

::I haven't listened to the podcast, but I suspect that the ambiguity was intentional. You're supposed to think it's Tigh's, and then realize that it was Roslin's all along. Not that Tigh drinking on duty ought to be anything of a revelation anyway. The man likes the sauce. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:25, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:::You can see Foster handing the can and cup to Roslin. It's not that obvious, and I missed it too at first, but it's clear that it's not Tigh's. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Opening==
Has anyone been able to find out why the opening title wasn't in the episode? --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
Also, if we really want a survivor count, we could use what that lawyer gave us as a number during the trial (even though it seems a bit too low). --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 18:02, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:No, because that's too old. It's also somewhat conflicting (see my comment on Survivor Count talk). That number has to refer to the ''civilian'' population directly after the escape. But that discussion is better for the SC article.
:From the podcast transcript:
:"In case you're wondering, no we did not forget to put the pre-cap on that says, "The Cylons Were Created By Man," etc. etc. Truth is we were pressed for time on these last two and we asked for special dispensation to do away with the pre-cap, as we call it, and also with the main title. So-to give us-in order to give us more time to tell the story and really play this for all it's worth."
:So there you have it. That's what I suspected happened. It sounds like they were really crunched for time on these last two episodes (considering the opening chop running a few minutes long next week). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Is the Eight at the opening Sharon Agathon or Boomer or another Eight?  Kind of appears that Park has an expression more accustomed to Boomer on her face, as well as wearing her hair as Boomer. [[User:Huh?|Huh?]] 06:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I think it must be [[Sharon Agathon]] (Athena) since she's [[Hera]]'s mother. --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 15:02, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::A comment made by RDM in the podcast indicated that there was a moment shot (but later cut) where they saw each other in the officer's head (the bathroom) and had a moment where they weren't QUITE ready yet to talk to each other about the fact that they'd had a dream with each other in it. It's in act 1 of the podcast transcript, if you're interested. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Refinery Ship==
Did anyone here Tivo the episode?  In the scene on the refinery ship, I thought I saw Olmos in a cameo.  He looked like he had the Gaff mustache from Blade Runner.  Can anyone check this? --[[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 09:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I haven't checked it, but I doubt it. It's probably just cut footage from "Dirty Hands" or possible even copied from the aired version. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:14, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I have a copy, and the bit with the scruffy mustachioed man is about 10:35 into the episode.  It does look a little like Olmos, but it's hard to tell, and the eyes don't seem quite right.  In any case, if he is a Cylon, he could've gone a little further with avoiding looking like his admiral counterpart. :) --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 00:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I noticed it immediately when watching the scene. But I seriously doubt they that's really EJO. There is no reason for such a camo of a high-profile actor. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Unless, as Saforrest suggested, Adama is ... a Cylon! *cues Cylon theme* :D. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:22, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Disagreement on this point in the analysis ==

I took out this line from the analysis by Serenity.  There a few points that I disagree with how this is worded:

"[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger ("[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", "[[Occupation]]", "[[Torn]]"). However this time, her Raptor is actually in immediate danger of being destroyed by the Cylons and jumps away at the last moment."

*This isn't the first time that Racetrack has escaped from imminent danger.  In "[[Dirty Hands]]", she and her ECO barely escaped from the Raptor before it collided with Colonial One and probably exploded because of the impure tylium fuel.
*She was not running at the first sign of danger in "[[Occupation]]", they had reached their daily time limit on waiting for contact from New Caprica and yes had begun to pick up some Cylon activity.  The last thing that they want is the Cylons to know that a Raptor is constantly waiting for a signal.  She stayed long enough to send back the message to the resistance and then left to report the good news.
*In "[[Torn]]", we are not told that she and Athena immediately ran away once they saw the dying baseship.  She was freaked out as any pilot would, but once they realized that the baseship and the other fighters were immobile, she had more of a expression of confusion than fear.
*In "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", it was the first time we were introduced to Racetrack.  Her expression of fear I would think is natural as no human had ever been inside a new Cylon baseship.  Considering that the nuke did not dislodged as planned and that Boomer went outside unexpectedly, it probably would freak out anyone.

Anyhows, we can put this line back in later, but I think it needs to be rewritten.  I honestly don't think that this character trait is just to Racetrack alone.  Boomer in the mini-series did the same thing once she and Helo realized that the Vipers were being destroyed.  I would think any smart Raptor pilot would know when to bug out since their ship isn't the most fighter capable.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:-sigh- In how many places do you want to bring this up? I mentioned it on your talk page, because you have an issue with it and then you replied to it on mine. Now you discuss it here as well. That's completely unnecessary.
:People can think that she's a coward or that she's doing her job. It doesn't say anything either way. I agree that "Occupation" isn't really a good example as the time is merely up, but the others are not cases of her running away from ''immediate'' danger. Except for "Dirty Hands" which doesn't fall into this pattern and thus isn't even mentioned. You are the one bringing that into this. Let's just remove it, as your attempts at rewording just twisted into something wrong. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

== Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. ==

It seems that the events in Episode "Six Degrees of Seperation" just dont matter anymore. I notice a lack of continuity with the events and their relevance in any further episodes with Baltar being potentially implicated in the initial genocide. Also, no one seems to acknowledge that Six looked like the same Six that was in that episode. Finally, the story arc of her dissappearing so quickly has never been explored. Somehow I had imagined these final two episodes might explain the plot holes (or dangling plot lines if you will) of that episode. Any thoughts? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 18:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:Could you explain that a bit more? I just rewatched Six Degrees (Hmm, anyone think that the title could be a reference to the Cylon?), and I don't see it contradicting this at all. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Well, Six interacted with Roslyn and Adama and pictures were shown implicating him. Although later those pictures were shown to be doctored up, what makes no sense is why the interaction has not been linked to any of the trial now. For example, no one seems to remember Six being there and everyone is remembering her for the first time being captured as "Caprica" and no mention of "Shelly Godfrey". Has Roslyn, Adama, or anyone else asked "Hey, aren't you the same Cylon we met a year ago who accused Baltar of giving access to the colonial defensive grid?".  Anyway, so I just find that episode to be an orphan in this series. It's unique aspects not fitting in at all with the plot. I don't know what the comment about the title referring to Six is supposed to mean. Obviously we all all know it's referring to Six, I certainly see no reason to doubt that. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:31, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:I haven't seen any contradiction. As [[Cassidy]] said to [[Tory Foster]] at the beginning of this episode, they couldn't go after Baltar about his involvement with Six before the fall of the Colonies because they had no solid evidence, other than Roslin's claim. They went after him with what they had: his collaboration with the Cylons on New Caprica, which includes the signed execution order. Also, while Shelly Godfrey's "disappearing" at the end of "Six Degrees of Separation" isn't explained, it doesn't really have any bearing on the storyline whatsoever. (She more than likely spaced herself, thus killing herself and removing her body from the fleet, but that's utterly academic now.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:31, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Case in point. You're speaking of them "needing proof". I'm speaking of the storyline, not just the trial. Roslyn nor Adama are responding to the connection to the events in Six degrees. What about that photograph of Baltar in the defense mainframe? What about "Shelly Godfrey"? What about her interaction despite being obviously responsive to Baltar's own choices. And finally, the idea that she just "spaced" herself (whatever that means) is totally not working. You can't kill yourself and then remove your own body, let alone so quickly that you turn a corner with Marines hot on your trail and accomplish this feat. It's far from academic, it's a plot hole that I noticed when that episode first aired and I suspected that this episode would be ignored plotwise. Name one scene in season 2 or 3 where any evens in Six Degrees had any relevance. At the very least, when they were interrogating Baltar and they had him doped up... they never asked him about her. Why? Because that episode stretched the limits of credibility. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Shelly Godfrey appeared and disappeared with no explanation and no further event like this has happened again. Cylons have not been known to disappear (or space out as you call it). I can make a stretch that Baltar's "divine" abilities may be related to some greater plotline that simply has not been established. Maybe Baltar is one of the first five. But Shelly certainly is not Caprica Six. Shelly certainly did not "die". She was not resurrected on any basestar. Her interaction with Baltar does not carry over to any of the other sixes. No, She represents some greater unexplained phenomonon surrounding Baltar (or the episode was a plot orphan).
*Roslyn remembered vaguely seeing Baltar with Six, but oops, Shelly looks just like her. Roslyn never asks "Baltar, was the woman on board last year the same woman I saw you with? She accused you of being behind the destruction of the 12 colonies, now what happened to her, and how did she disappear"... something! Again, when Six Degrees ended, I had a feeling that they would just hope we all forgot about that episode. 
*Adama wanted an investigation on how she dissappeared... what ever happeend with that?
* This site even tries to explain the plot-hole. From calling her a Cylon-Related Hallucination...which comes with doctored footage that computers can reverse analyze to dialogue which tends to line up with disjointed events... 
*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amorak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::: When I say "spaced", I mean she threw herself out into space (more specifically, she probably found an airlock on ''Galactica'', jumped into it, and vented herself out into space). It's not the magical phenomenon you believe it to be, apparently... And I'm gonna have a chill run down my back when I say this, but it's spelled [[Laura Roslin]] not Laura Roslyn. ::cringe:: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 05:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::: It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. So it's possible this Six that accused Baltar really looked completely different but Baltar hallucinated her as being a Six. This episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. In fact attempting these actions in the real world would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of the baby and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.)--[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 09:51, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
@@ Line 17: / Line 17: @@
 :(*snif*) No mention of Galvatron? Is he being left to rust somewhere in space by something more evil than he: ''lawyers?'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
-::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
+::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
 :::Sorry, guys. I thought Galvatron's presence would be obvious, keeping previous predictions in mind. He's in his new Pretender disguise: Romo Lampkin. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 23:58, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
 :I'm looking forward to Cylon presence, we haven't seen any Cylons (save for Athena and Caprica-Six) since "Rapture". Or have we? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 14:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)
@@ Line 70: / Line 70: @@
 :"In case you're wondering, no we did not forget to put the pre-cap on that says, "The Cylons Were Created By Man," etc. etc. Truth is we were pressed for time on these last two and we asked for special dispensation to do away with the pre-cap, as we call it, and also with the main title. So-to give us-in order to give us more time to tell the story and really play this for all it's worth."
 :So there you have it. That's what I suspected happened. It sounds like they were really crunched for time on these last two episodes (considering the opening chop running a few minutes long next week). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
-::I disagree about the survivor count. I think the survivor count has always been and still refers to the number of humans known to exist and/or are independent of Cylon control regardless of military or Civilian status. That is the point, the survival of humanity, so the number after the escape refers to both civilian and military. Also, did anyone take into account the estimated 8,000 people killed when the ''Cloud Nine'' and surrounding too close ships blew up near the end of the episode Lay Down Your Burdens part II which of course happened after the episode survivor count was displayed? After the ''Cloud Nine'' blew we got the number of people who went down to New Caprica. The loss of the ''Clould Nine'' would skew the numbers [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:04, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-:::''Cloud Nine'' is accounted for at [[Survivor Count]]. It's factored into the drop between "Lay Down Burdens, Part II" and the population of New Caprica City  (plus those left in orbit). And you're right that generally it refers to ''all'' humans. The one at the start of the episode does anyways. But I see no other way to explain Cassidy's numbers. It's really a writing error. Even with that explanation it's inconsistent. I'll reword it a bit to clarify that's a writing error --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
 Is the Eight at the opening Sharon Agathon or Boomer or another Eight?  Kind of appears that Park has an expression more accustomed to Boomer on her face, as well as wearing her hair as Boomer. [[User:Huh?|Huh?]] 06:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
@@ Line 99: / Line 97: @@
 :-sigh- In how many places do you want to bring this up? I mentioned it on your talk page, because you have an issue with it and then you replied to it on mine. Now you discuss it here as well. That's completely unnecessary.
 :People can think that she's a coward or that she's doing her job. It doesn't say anything either way. I agree that "Occupation" isn't really a good example as the time is merely up, but the others are not cases of her running away from ''immediate'' danger. Except for "Dirty Hands" which doesn't fall into this pattern and thus isn't even mentioned. You are the one bringing that into this. Let's just remove it, as your attempts at rewording just twisted into something wrong. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
-::In any event I agree with Life Star's issue of the (mis)characterization of Racetrack. In none of the incidents in which her personal bravery is questioned are an instance of cowardice. I don't know how can anyone get that looking at the scenes.She had a legit reason to get the hell out of Dodge in all of them, including and especially after getting the signal from NC after lurking in the nebula near the planet. The line "[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger.." implies cowardice. Implying a character is a coward when he/she really is not would not be reporting the facts accurately in this 'pedia. It has to be supported by the facts or at least logical argument like everything else.[[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
 == Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. ==
@@ Line 115: / Line 112: @@
 *Adama wanted an investigation on how she dissappeared... what ever happeend with that?
 * This site even tries to explain the plot-hole. From calling her a Cylon-Related Hallucination...which comes with doctored footage that computers can reverse analyze to dialogue which tends to line up with disjointed events...
-*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amarak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
+*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amorak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
 ::: When I say "spaced", I mean she threw herself out into space (more specifically, she probably found an airlock on ''Galactica'', jumped into it, and vented herself out into space). It's not the magical phenomenon you believe it to be, apparently... And I'm gonna have a chill run down my back when I say this, but it's spelled [[Laura Roslin]] not Laura Roslyn. ::cringe:: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 05:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-:::: Yes Godfrey "spacing" herself .i.e ejecting herself out of an airlock voluntarily (as opposed to Leoben ejected out by Roslin and Athena almost being so) is the most logical explanation as to why they never found her. As to we not seeing her resurrected anywhere if you accept that most likely she walked out of an airlock she was resurrected since at the time (as it is now) the Cylon Fleet was tracking the RTF and their resurrection ships were close. We did not see Leoben resurrect anywhere either, but we know from soken references, most recently when Caprica Six told Roslin when she was first captured in the deleted scene, he did resurrect. So while admittedly we have no hard or testimonial evidence as to her disappearance and resurrection, it can be safely assumed that since she hasn't been seen in the fleet for almost two years, especially after the occupation of New Caprica when the seven known Cylons blew their cover so to speak, Shelly Godfrey spaced herself and was resurrected elsewhere. Also, we haven't heard any references to D'anna Biers either (although D'anna judging from the dream/vision she had was killed by Marines on Galactica.) so Shelly Godfrey isn't the only Cylon that infiltrated the fleet that they haven't talked about. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-*It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. Basiclly, this episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. Many of the events appear to be impossible in the real world. For example Shelly appears allmost immediatly after Baltar angers Virtual Six with his disbelief in her divine connection. Virtual Six would have to have knowledge Baltar was about to call her on her "abilities" making her precognizant since it's likely even Baltar didn't know he was going to snap at her at that moment, yet Shelly's appearence is timed perfectly to the minute. Also the allmost Dues Ex Machina way Baltar is redeemed is perfectly timed with his confession to Virtual Six and occurs due to Gaeta acting seemingly independent of Virtual Six's control. In short Virtual Six either has to be Omnipotent or at least precognizant to pull this off in the real world (unlikely given her later reaction in regards to Hera's "death".) Also even if she could attempt these actions in the real world they would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of Hera, and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.) --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
+::: It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. So it's possible this Six that accused Baltar really looked completely different but Baltar hallucinated her as being a Six. This episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. In fact attempting these actions in the real world would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of the baby and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.)--[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 09:51, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-*Possible alternative. For this alternative we'll assume that Virtual Six is what she claims to be, a divine being serving an omnipotent Being. When you include an onimpotent God in the equation all of a sudden you can throw the physics rule book out the airlock. The issues with Shelly's past and disappearence are now moot as Shelly was most likely also an angel of God having taken human form for this appearence. Likewise all the other improbable events and perfect timings are explained(thats what God wanted therefore thats what happened "Let There Be Framing"). Another required assumption is that God either is incapable or unwilling to affect the free will of humans (and possibly cylons) directly but has no qualms with influencing them. The purpose behind this charade remains the same as my earlier theory(to scare Baltar into compliance.) That being said Shelly's resemblence to a Six could simply be an extra tack on the board to scare or confuse Baltar. Likewise this resemblence is something that may only be evident to Baltar (ie. the other characters see her as a different person with no resemblence to a Six.) It is possible that it is part of Gods overall plan that the humans never believe that the cylons were behind the attempt to frame Baltar. There is no evidence that God wanted the humans to think that cylons attempted this frame and it is possible that God specifically did not want that. That would explain the lack of this information during Baltar's trial. The evidence is proven false. Why would Roslin and Adama want evidence that proves Baltar was FRAMED for treason surfacing during a trial where THEY charged him with treason, it would SUPPORT Baltar's case.
---[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-:Whoa! Slow down, cowboy! I'm happy that you have many ideas, JonesJ3599, but keep in mind that [[BW:NOT|this isn't a chat forum]]; it's hard to read and long blocks of text will dilute your point. I'll try to parse what points you have.
-:One thing to read is the article on [[virtual beings]], specifically on the points we have gleaned from aired content about virtual Six and Baltar. We still don't know what they really are, if they are delusions or angels, but the fact that two real beings have imaginary friends floating with them means a lot. The virtual beings aren't copies of the actual ones; their personalities are more militant versions. Shelley was just another Six; her appearance and disappearance is coincidental to virtual Six's actions (as far as we can tell). The fact that the virtual beings have insight and knowledge that often seems to match and exceed that of its host is obvious. When virtual Baltar showed up, however, we can't now assume that virtual Six is a Cylon plot; Caprica-Six was (and is) very confused about her vBaltar. For now, what they are and who they tap into is a mystery. Keep in mind as you read up that Battlestar Wiki enjoys plausible speculation [[BW:FANW|ONLY if it has an official reference from the show]]. Personal theories aren't good here, although you can always ask about the plausibilities of something you noted (briefly) here on a talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-I will try to briefly address these responses. Also, the reason why is because I really believe this episode deserves better treatment in the whole story arc than it has been treated. Secondly, the reasons and responses I have read simply do not meet a comforting sense of credibility. It's like the third matrix movie... it just didn't work with the first two. :)
-* Overall, Baltar's perspective was not solely how the episode was shot. Especially the part that is most pertinent. When Adama called the marines to track her, and Tigh reported that she dissappeared around a corner. Baltar was not present. Adama flipped out "FIND HER!" he shouted!
-* There is no way she could have ejected herself into space without causing some decompression damage or alarm or at the very least attracting the attention of some monitoring system.(This is where credibility and plot holes come to play). If the goal was just to say she ejected to space... well, that would have been the more sensible way by showing it. For her to "dissappear" implies that they want us to think there is more to her than just moving at the speed of light, unlocking an airlock, floating out in space and somehow doing all of this in one second. No, that's called a plot hole. The writers do not intend on us thinking she ejected herself and I reject that entirely. She turned a corner with Marines right behind her. She was being watched closely. She didn't have time to open an airlock, eject, then CLOSE it. Who closed the airlock then... from the inside? One of the Marines?
-* Shelly is a projection of Baltar's (and his virtual Six's) consciousness, or related to it. She was not working in tandem with the Cylons. If she was, it's a coiencidence (or providence) that she came by and did what she did. I could acknowledge that she worked ignorantly of Baltar's own virtual six... sort of how Baltar chose the right place to attack in "Hand of God", or how Virtual Six predicted that there would be a new cylon-hybrid child born at the end of Season 1. But you can't have Shelly be both in league with the Cylons and also working consciously as an extension of Baltar's conscioiusness.
-* JonesJ correctly points out, Gaeta acts independant of a hallucination, or any control of Virtual Six. So either Virtual Six is either of another "faction" (not cylon, not human) or Baltar is unconsciously creating these circumstances. Which leads me to this point:
-Six Degrees would be a great episode to introduce the omniscence of the "final five". But more importantly is that we need to get more clarity that the Virtual beings are neither on the cylon nor the human side. And guess what, the final five... I am more and more convinced are behind this, and the final five are not cylons. So what if the other cylons think they are. To say Shelly is just another Six is not sufficient. She does not work in the frame of the cylon power structure. She came, wasted some time and left. You all gotta admit, if we took that episode out... because it has not been really canonized in further episodes... nothing would be missing. Nothing would be lo
-st continuity wise. But I'm appealing that that episode be given more attention than it has.  --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-Oh and what does this have to do with this episode? Baltar is being revered as a god with godlike powers. Shelly is forgotten in the whole trial. Shelly is a good, very good link between Virtual Six and Caprica. Remember, Virtual Six is Baltar's projection of Caprica Six, and Shelly is an extension of Virtual Six. And now only a select few are hearing strange but interesting noises on the ship.. and Caprica leads them on a goose chase... just like Shelly did! Yes, I'm speculating, but it is much more intriguing than "SHelly spaced herself and closed the door on the way out". --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:36, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-: I follow Occam's Razor on this. Simply put, she probably evaded the marines (not a hard thing to do, seeing as they are [[Resistance (episode)|virtually incompetent]] when the story suits it), utilizing her knowledge of the battlestar, then (utilizing her knowledge of computers) overrides any alarms and jettisons herself to space.
-:: I don't think you read my points above. You can't jettison yourself into space, and then close the door behind you. The Marines, even if they were as incompetent as Brownies couldn't be so dullwitted as to miss an airlock opening 2 seconds. Sorry, I do not buy it. Someone would have noticed a draft. Occam's razor requires at the very least for the explanation to work. The theory has to be complete and credible, not just simpler.  Which one of the dumb marines who were right behind her as she "turned a corner" (not "went through an airlock") closed the airlock door behind her? And keep in mind, two seconds is not enough time for any of this you explain to work. Decompression alone refutes this. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
-::: I did read your points. Interesting as they are, I find that it is more likely that she evaded the marine, hid for a bit, then spaced herself. It's not hard for a Cylon to program the computer to de-pressurize an airlock, open the airlock door (they're not manual doors, as "[[A Day in the Life]]" proved), close the door, and re-pressurize. Of course, the episode did leave open the other possibility that you mentioned as well, though I find it less likely now. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup>
-: The ultimate point of the episode in question is to discredit any claims of Baltar's collusion with the Cylons prior to the fall of the colonies, thus only further strengthening the Fleet's trust in Baltar. That's it. Anything else is over-rated fanwanking. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:52, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-::But this episode is (or should be) crucial to NOW determining where Baltar's credibility will go, and how Six's and Virutal Six really interact with him. This episode has been swept under the rug.--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
-::: Hold it... How would Baltar's defense even ''know'' about Virtual Six? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 21:17, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
-::::Even if the defense did find out about Virtual Six, the only thing they could really use the information for is the [[Wikipedia:insanity defense|insanity defense]], which I don't think is likely. It doesn't serve the prosecution's case either, as being insane or the victim of Cylon mental manipulation would mitigate his culpability. The only way Virtual Six is going to affect the trial is if Baltar starts interacting with her during his testimony. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:57, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
-* Good points, I agree that Shelly is most likely not a cylon. As for what this has to do with this episode, the entire fact that Shelly has been "Forgotten" is what makes this so strange. I mean someone attempted to frame Baltar for treason. Thats HUGE evidence for someone trying to defend Baltar from the same charge. However, I still feel the only explanation (other than omnipotence of VSix) is to call the ENTIRE "Six Degrees" episode an hallucination of Baltar. The fact that an attempted framing of Baltar by a "Six" is NEVER brought up later in the series seems good proof of this. Also as I pointed out having proof of an attempted framing of himself would be a MAJOR boon to Baltar's defense. So why hasn't Baltar brought it up? VSix would sub-conciously influence Baltar to not even realize the connection, as it would expose Six's subterfuge having the other characters telling Baltar that the event never happened . In addition the entire episode is too "perfect" for VSix there are far too many variables for even a precognizant to pull off this perfectly. As for the parts of the episode that Baltar could not see it's possible that Six caused him hallucinated those and Baltar was in such an unstable emotional condition and never thought how he was seeing the events. Keep in mind that Baltar is and has been since the attack in a VERY fragile mental position. Many things that a rationale person would notice and question (such as how he saw things he shouldn't have, and not realizing the connection between the attempted frame and his defense) Baltar will simply miss. I understand this is extremely iffy however I can't think of any other possiblities that explain the seeming vow of silence eveyrone has taken on the subject. {{unsigned|Jonesj3599|21:01, 22 March 2007}}
-: RIGHT! See Jonesj gets it. Somehow, someway they dropped the ball on this episode and we are sitting here trying to make the episode fit like a square peg in a round hole. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
-: Shelly is ultimately inconsequential, since she was not involved at New Caprica. Again, Baltar is being tried for what they can prove -- which is his involvement with the Cylon occupying force on New Caprica. Bringing up Shelly would be the equivalent of showing us [[w:Chekhov's gun|Chekhov's gun]] and not firing it by act 3, since all she did was to discredit those who may have known about [[Amarak]]'s evidence about a "traitor in their midst". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:27, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-:: Read what I said you're right that Shelly is inconsequential to the PROSECUTION but it is NOT inconsequential to the DEFENSE. Also the standard of evidence is much slacker for a defense (that's based on our legal system but then colonial law seem similar.) Showing this evidence could point to a conspiracy within the fleet against Baltar (whether thats true or not doesn't matter.) The point is it would be a viable tactic for the defense to persue, and an important tatic as well. --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 20:52, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-::: How do you see the defense pursuing the Godfrey angle, then? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 21:17, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
-::: Ok I'll use an analogy with the O.J Simpson trial (simply as an example.) Say (Hypothetically) that 2 years before Nicole is killed, Simpson had a Girlfriend that was murdered and evidence planted to implicate him. The evidence is PROVEN to be false AND planted. Now Nicole is killed. Don't you think that an eariler framing of Simpson would look suspicious, and wouldn't the defense want to point out that someone out there wanted to frame Simpson 2 years ago and may just be trying to finish the job? Well Baltar is the same way, he was framed earlier for treason and now he's on trial for treason. He could state that that whoever was trying to frame him is back. Also I agree that Balastar may be right that this episode was simply a mistake and that my wierd explanation isn't true, but it's still the only explanatino that seems to fit the square hole (as far as I can think of). --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 02:52, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
-:I disagree, and this is where the point is. Shelly is the link between Virtual Six and Caprica Six. I'm not merely interested in the trial, I am more interested in the possibility that the final five are another faction, (likely some human prophets who actually controlled the Cylons to instigate the first war). Remember, the Oracles interact on a "spiritual" level with the Cylons. Proof: An Oracle gave prophecy to Biers. That prophecy lead to and foretold her boxing. My comments on this are actually being vindicated by the new "Who is a cylon" page that came up. Sorry I'm too lazy to link it. I'll end my comments about this here and carry it on to the Talk:Crossroads Part 2 section, because it's very relevant. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
-== Tory's Lack of Sleep and "the look" ==
-The following excerpt from the podcast transcript not only helps explain Tory and Anders' sleep troubles, but also the weird look she gives him when he's all cuddly with Seelix:
-"Y'know notice how frazzled  Tory is starting to look here. There was more of an awareness actually in the follow up scene that's coming-that there was a line that was dropped where Laura essentially confro-where she confronts Tory in the scene coming up in th quarters she out-she tells Tory pretty directly, she knows she's sleeping with  Anders at that point. Because that that secret was out in the fleet. And Laura was saying, "Y'know your spending more time with Mr. Anders." And Tory kind of blanches. And Laura says, "Y'know that won't, his wife was a hero to a lot of people in this fleet and this isn't looking good and what the F*#$ are you thinking.""
-So apparently there's more soap opera action going on than they had time to give coverage to? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:20, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-:The little over-talkative birds that haunt my online dreams appear to concur with your assessment, but I'll wait for the Truth. It's Out There. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-::I'm sure if anything is to come of it we'll see it Sunday. It just helped make sense for me of the WTF moment for me when Tory gave Anders that look. The lack of sleep I attributed to the orbital mind control lasers (or whatever that radio stuff is), but the look was just odd. If it helps, RDM's podcast was my only source on the matter, as I generally avoid online birds (especially near the finale) due to their tendency to sing spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:16, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
-== D'Anna's cameraman? ==
-I could have sworn that at one point we see him in the courtroom scenes operating one of the cameras. He even has the same hair and sideburns. Can anyone confirm if this is indeed actor Flick Harrison? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 06:02, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
-: When i was watching the DVDs, I thought so... I'll see if I can snag a shot tomorrow. (If no one beats me to it!)-- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 05:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
-:: Ok, I've confirmed it. An image is on the guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 06:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
-== Unanswered Questions: Colonel Tigh and Ellen ==
-I think the unanswered question of "Why did Tigh say, "What about Ellen?" can probably removed as his comment is simply meant to indicate that he believes his killing to be baseless now that he knows he's a cylon - what value is there in a cylon killing someone for collaborating with the cylons?
---[[User:That Damned Cat|That Damned Cat]] 10:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
-==Resignation of Lee Adama==
-I think this page should mention that Lee Adama was the first person to resign from the military which is referenced in Final Cut when D'Anna says that Gaeta informed her that not one member of the military has resigned.
-==Roslyn's trial testimony==
-Roslyn mentions "Captain Apollo" and how it has a nice ring which is what she said in the Mini-Series when Lee tells her that his call sign is Apollo but that his real name is Lee Adama.