Editing Talk:Characters eliminated from suspicion/Archive 1

{{deletion discussion}}

I don't get why death disproves a character as a Cylon.  We're talking about the final five here.  If one of them died, they would of course not reappear on board the fleet, but could very well appear as one of the final five later. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}
:As noted (ad nauseum) on the talk page of the Humanoid Cylon speculation article, death removes a character from suspicion because ONLY a Cylon can return from the dead. If the character returns, they are obviously a Cylon. Until the other Cylon characters are actually revealed on-air, however, we don't know who has returned (and cannot speculate further--that's fanwanking). Thus, dead is dead unless the character is truly revealed in a show. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 3 March 2007 (CST)

== Why are any of these eliminated ==

I've said it before, but Saul Tigh as Cylon seems to confirm it.   I don't see how any of these characters can be eliminated.   Based on Tyrol, it seems likely that Final Five cylons can breed without trouble.  I see nothing in the show to indicate they are at risk from the virus.   Age and having fought in the Cylon war are not barriers -- the Final Five are, as is now clear, a different breed of Cylon that, like Tigh, are older than the Cylons we have seen in the show.   I see nothing that says they can't breed, can't be somebody's child (Tigh was a teenage warrior, Tyrol remembers his childhood though that could be a fake memory) can't handle the virus, can't have brothers and sisters or have long associations.   It's very likely (I would even say close to confirmed) that they are older than the colonies themselves.

Alas, even the above rule that a character that returns from death must be a Cylon is now false.  We certainly aren't sure that the returned Starbuck is the final Cylon, and there's evidence she is not.

I suspect we need to rethink the page about the remaining member of the Final 5.  Nobody (except the 11 known Cylons) is eliminated from suspicion.  It's worth documenting unusual events which might point the finger at any given character, but the old rules are gone.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:56, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:Cally and Helo are eliminated because they were able to successfully breed with Cylons, Lee and Kacey are eliminated because they have living human parents, Hot Dog, Racetrack and Erin Mathias are eliminated due to exposure to the lymphocyic encephalopathy. William Adama and Lee Adama are eliminated because they have verified character histories dating back to birth. Laura Roslyn and Tom Zarek are the only living characters on this list who are still candidates. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:43, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
::We don't know that Cylons can't breed with other Cylons, only that they haven't been able to do it yet.  Wasn't love pointed out as a missing ingredient in one of the episodes?  Tom Zarek and Laura are fair game as you pointed out as well.  The "dead" characters shouldn't be on this list, because obviously if we included every crewmember that was killed we'd have a pretty long list (even if you only included characters on Tory's level).  We don't even know if the final five are susceptible to that virus that killed the others, because we've not seen them exposed to it.  Basically, I agree with Bradtem that until we see/hear differently the Final Five break all the rules, and only a few exceptions (Bill Adama and high profile people who had children before Hera.  If he was a Cylon it was possible he could have children, but the cylons not knowing about their most high profile sleeper agent breeding is unlikely.) can be discounted.--[[User:Dev|Dev]] 12:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
:There is also the fact that I mentioned on another page: that in the case of the Final Five, there does not necessarily have to mean that the rules are the same.  For example, even though Galen's a Cylon, that does not necessarily mean he's lying about his parents, nor that they were made up - bear in mind, he may have been adopted (though I won't go into more detail to avoid fanwanking).  For that matter, we're still not even sure that the "returned" Starbuck is actually Kara back in action and not just Lee going insane in the membrane.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 22:29, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
::I still think that we should assume that any rule which applies to the other Cylons applies equally to the final five until that individual rule has been refuted. The only rules which Crossroads invalidated are the 2 year rule and the Ragnar Anchorage radiation rule. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:43, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Actually, the Ragnar radiation rule was never truly invalidated, since Boomer was never affected by it either... Also, it took time for [[Aaron Doral]] to start exhibiting symptoms before the other Cylons rescued him. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:15, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Sorry, but this assumption that any rule that applies to the other Cylons applies to the #1 Cylon until refuted is exactly the assumption which made the previous speculation page _completely worthless_.   Not only has the show not told us the rules are the same, it has very explicitly told us the rules are very, very different.   I tried, with no success, to get people to realize they were making big assumptions that were not confirmed in the show.   Is it really necessary to say that again?   Before, the show was just suggesting that the F5 are under entirely different rules, now it's screaming it and RDM is saying it in interviews.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:26, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::::As another option, we could could treat each of the remaining rules a character violates as evidence suggesting they may not be a Cylon rather than definitive proof that they are not a Cylon. The last Cylon might violate some of the remaining rules, but I don't think he or she is going to violate all the remaining rules like William Adama. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 16:18, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::You might not think that, but the mistake of the previous page was people assumed (even in the face of counter-arguments) things that were not specified in the show.  I think Adama is a prime candidate myself.  He and Roslin are the ones that would most inspire the words "I had no idea" from Three, in my view.  But that's simply what I think.  I was hoping that people would realize what a giant mistake the qualifiers listed were.  Assumptions can guide your thinking on the show, but you would be unwise to lay down a rule that refuses to accept anybody, including Adama, as a candidate, because Moore has clearly showed you he will show your assumptions to be wrong unless you pay careful attention.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 20:38, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::William Adama has confirmed contact with Joseph Adama, Joseph Adama has had confirmed contact with Lee Adama and it has been officially stated that the humanoid Cylons are not copies of specific humans. It's extremely unlikely that a Cylon could have secretly killed and replaced William Adama without his family noticing. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:53, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Trying not to argue things here, but you're making assumptions shown not to be true in the show.  Tigh, who fought in the first Cylon war (confirmed by RDM) is an F5.  F5s have no problem having kids.  F5s age with time.  Adama is similar age to Tigh.  As RDM says, these are a very different kind of Cylon.  I know many people assumed they were the same type but they are just plain not, we have it from the show, we have it from RDM.  They are from a prior generation, not from the generation of Cylons made by the colonials, or they could hardly have fought in the war.  Yes, if Adama is Cylon then Lee and Zack are possibly half-Cylon, just as Nicholas Tyrol is.  Nothing in the show contradicts this.  Until we learn more about the F5 there are few rules on who #1 is or is not, so justify your proposals with canon and have at it.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:36, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::::Adama could very possibly be a Cylon.  I thought he was ruled out because of his high profile, but then I remembered that the other 7 DONT KNOW WHO THE FINAL FIVE ARE.  At least if you can take D'Anna's reaction to seeing one of their faces as typical.  I don't think ANYBODY can be ruled out as of now, since apparently they break all the rules.  Somebody edited the page to keep the "3 year" and Cylon war rules in place, yet with Tigh we know that's invalid.  

::::::::We don't know that the final five aren't immune to the virus as are humans.  Apparently they've been around for awhile.  They could be old enough to have developed an immunity to it.  Not old as in how long they've been conscious or how old they look, but how long ago they were built.  It seems the F5 weren't build by the current residents of the 12 Colonies, and they hold some religious correlation to the 5 priests from the temple.  If they're that old, there's no reason they couldn't have developed an immunity just like the humans.

::::::::As I said above, we don't know that Cylons are unable to breed, just that they haven't been able to breed with each other thus far.  They seemed to think they lacked love was the reason, which is why Helo/Boomer and Tyrol/Cally were able to reproduce.  It seems irrational scientifically speaking, but there are many irrational things in the BSG universe.  --[[User:Dev|Dev]] 12:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::::::::I still don't see how or when Cylons had the opportunity to capture or kill the real William Adama and replace him with a Cylon who could successfully assume his identity without some member of his family becoming suspicious. We're talking about the only character with a confirmed history predating the Cylon War. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 17:27, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Or, just a silly thought, we could always ask Bradley whether or not the Final Five are from the same genetic pool that the Significant Seven are... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:50, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== A Measure of Salvation ==

I'm kind of surprised that no one noted that Adama and others met with the [[Lymphocytic encephalitis]]-infected [[Simon]] without quarantine procedures. Also, Doc Cottle should really be here as well, since he is exposed to [[Lymphocytic encephalitis]] as well (from checking on the prisoners), but does not fall ill from it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:08, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:True. I hadn't considered that. However, what was the established transmission mechanism of the illness (if any)? Airborne? Fluid? Funky-bio-Cylon-electronsmission? (Just bounce the tetrion beam off the deflector dish, silly.) That is to say, even if they were standing in the same room wouldn't necessarily mean that the illness could have been transmitted to them. Though if Cottle had been infected, I suppose he could still be giving himself injections of the vaccine (indefinitely). If anybody else were infected, though, it'd be awfully suspicious if they needed frequent injections of the stuff. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:41, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I don't recall there being any. But it more than likely was airborne, seeing as the entire ship was affected by it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::I'd tend to agree, but it could just as easily have been fluid based (what with all the liquid based control interfaces), or even sexually transmitted (uh... yeah). The fact that the Raiders and Centurions also appear to have been affected may have been a factor of the Hybrid/entire basestar being knocked out, but may also point to a more electronic/networking transmission (which potentially would be even more virulent than airborne, and wouldn't even need direct contact.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:08, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Right. It'd be nice if we actually see some Cylons getting the freak on just for fun (after all dolphins and humans do the same thing). ;-) Back to the issue though, I imagine that physical content or bodily fluids would be likely as well. (After all the encephalitis was carried by rats, much like the [[w:Black Plague|Black Plague]] in the 14th century.) So, on second thought, it could go either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 11:25, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::::[[Crossroads, Part II#Teaser|We just did]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:15, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::LOL, true. Actually, far [[Miniseries|earlier than]] that if you consider Tyrol and Boomer. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:31, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Deletion ==

Since the Final Five are "fundamentally different" from the Significant Seven, I propose that the article be deleted, since no characters, at this point in time, are feasibly capable of being eliminated from suspicion. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:05, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
:I concur with proposal for deletion. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 14:45, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
::I concur as well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:03, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
:::As do I. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 08:59, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::::It would do to remove this line of speculation now. I concur with deletion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:24, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:Oppose -- but it should be started as a clean slate.  We do have confirmation on a very small number of characters from RDM, such as Cally, since he has stated Nik is a human-Cylon hybrid.  The key is to make people be more careful about their assumptions.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:06, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::Actually, I wouldn't be opposed to that either. But the page as is should be deleted, none the less, and "rebooted" like [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|its parent]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:35, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:I concur. So say we all. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 11:03, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

==Took out irrelevant "Flesh and Bone" references==

This page is supposed to give the reasons why these characters absolutely cannot be Cylons. However, both Adamas had irrelevant information in them. In fact, the Lee entry had absolutely no information that excused him from suspicion. I reduced William Adama's entry to be in line with Roslin, as they are cleared on the same grounds, and I rewrote Lee's, although I think he has the weakest case of any of these five. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:51, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Sitrep ==

Has this page been cleaned up enough to remove the deletion and cleanup tags? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:49, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
: Yeah, it looks cleaned up now. But... there does seem to be a consensus for its deletion, per the discussion above.... We can put it to a revote, if desired. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 09:21, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
::It looks alot better now than it did. I can go either way, keep or delete. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 10:53, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The main argument for deletion was that since the Final Five were "different", the old rules didn't apply any more. However, this page in its current form does manage to eliminate some characters. For instance, since Nicolas Tyrol is '''half'''-Cylon (confirmed by RDM), Cally cannot be a Cylon since Galen already is one. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:17, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

== Bill and Laura ==

As far as I remeber in the [[Podcast:Frak Party Q and A]], RDM said that he did not want [[William Adama|Bill]] or [[Laura Roslin|Laura]] to be in the final FOUR. Also consider this alongside that [[BW:OC#Identity_of_the_Final_Five|Bradley Thomson has told us]] the identity of the fifth has "been kicking around since about the end of Season One". Therefore Laura and Bill are certainly not eliminated. Indeed (for myriad reasons), my money's on Laura. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 17:11, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

OK, I've read the Podcast transcript and its very clear that RDM was talking about which characters were not going to be part of that FOUR. Thus, Bill and Laura are still in the game (and this page is basically defunct). [[User:OTW|OTW]] 13:03, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

:There was much information removed from William Adama's entry here, and I'm wondering why. Keep in mind that this article still has relevance because not everyone can be the last one, therefore it remains a good guessing game based on episode data, no matter how twisted the outcome. The page still has relevance; if other qualifiers hold up, Helo and Cally can NOT be Cylons as they cannot reproduce Cylon-Cylon offspring. Laura's cancer leaves a great deal in question since the Cylons appear to be genetically perfect and without any issues in inherited or mutation-created diseases. For drama and history, my guess ''would'' be Bill, but we need to let events continue, and this page is germane until we know for sure, in my opinion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:19, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

::The article brief says that this is a list of those we know '''for certain''' are not Cylons. As far as I see it this is limited to Cally and Helo (as we know their kids are hybrids) and Lee (who must have at least one human parent). Apart from that, everyone else is fair game. The article title needs to be changed if this is the page for "reasons why people probably aren't Cylons". [[User:OTW|OTW]] 15:18, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

== Deletion Nomination ==

I've nominated this page for deletion.

The main reason being that [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] covers the pros and cons of each character being a Cylon, this page just rehashes half of that information. It's name also suggests that we have ''eliminated'' characters from suspicion, and post-[[Crossroads Part II]], apart from Helo and Cally, ''anyone'' could be a Cylon.

So I propose we merge anything useful into [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] then set this page to redirect to that one. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 14:47, 7 December 2007 (CST) 

Furthermore, the page is an [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Characters_eliminated_from_suspicion|orphan]]. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 14:49, 7 December 2007 (CST)
:{{Vd}} You make a good case. Redundancy is bad enough, but orphaned redundancy...? Wasted space. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:00, 7 December 2007 (CST)
:{{vd}} Agreed. This already presented well enough on the speculation article itself. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 7 December 2007 (CST)