Editing Battlestar Wiki talk:Think Tank/Ticket System

== Off topic... ==

What happened to mantis? :D LOL! (Inside joke for those who don't get it.) Why not move to the frakmedia.net domain? :o [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 13:09, 23 February 2008 (CST)
: Mantis and our Mediawiki setup didn't get along. Oh well. Anyway, we can do a ticket system for the entire FM! network. The link on the proposal page is merely an example. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup>

== On topic... ==

I really don't know how this is going to work. It just become a new place for us have to check. Yes, we get emails when something new posted, but submitting corrections over this type of system might be to cumbersome. They say "mention that x, y, z happened instead of a, b, c." Ok...[[BW:CJ]]. A ticket system for system related stuff to vistors to all FrakMedia sites lets say might be more practical than for wiki contributions. I really don't see how this is any different than opening up to non-registered users. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 13:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
: Well, four things come to mind:
# Opening up the Wiki to unregistered users would create a poisonous "RC patrol"/whack-a-mole culture that's prevalent at Wikipedia. We don't want that here.
# Through the ticket system, anonymous users would be unable to influence the articles directly, and would be an effective buffer/filter against changes. (Again, avoiding the RC "whack-a-mole" Wackopedia culture.)
# People have commented that MediaWiki's interface is difficult to understand/use. With a ticket system, users would be able to know what information they can provide. 
# It would be easier to keep track of the status of the tickets, allow multiple users (with the proper privileges), as well as allow others to comment on them.
I do agree that a general ticket system would likely be in order, that encompasses all our FM! productions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 14:29, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Joe also mentioned opening up a separate suggestions namespace to anons. What ever happened to that idea? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 14:04, 23 February 2008 (CST)
: That could work as well. For instance, Battlestar Pegasus has the "Proving Ground" namespace, which isn't used yet. But the same idea applies and its doable. Also, using the [[bsp:Submissions|Submissions]] forms, we'd be able to generate our own ticket-based system... after a fashion. I'll add that to the Ticket System proposal when I get the chance. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 14:29, 23 February 2008 (CST)

:To be honest, I don't see what's so difficult in editing articles the normal way, though getting used to all the syntax linking, pictures, citing, etc. isn't that easy. Depends on what you want to do, I guess. As for the ticket system: it depends on what it's used for. If people create tickets for typos or tiny additions, that would just create unnecessary work too. But it could be useful for significant changes and suggestions. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:54, 23 February 2008 (CST)

I'm concerned with context and complexity. Say a person wants to make a "minor" correction. If its a typo, that's OK. But what about contextual errors where a contributor in this manner wants to add something. Not only do they need to explain what to add, but where and why. In all of that explaining it would've been faster to write the edit in an account themselves. There's also the matter of placing the edit in the correct location. We the editor-in-place may not be able to understand where and why the edit is required, especially if the user can't explain it. I'm open to the notion as an alternative editing option, but MediaWiki is self-correcting (even if others consider it complicated and restricting). You have to know how to write and edit with the right tools to use any wiki. There is an intelligence and competency barrier that I don't want to try to make "better" because someone can't understand the tool. There are many people who, in my opinion, have no need for computers because they really have no competency in using them and likely don't really need one. Generally speaking, in the pre-computer days, if you couldn't write or type, you couldn't make a book. After a fashion, the notion of editing a wiki requires a certain competency as well. I'd like for things to be as open and available. But we all have our specific abilities. Creating a user account shows that a user can work with the wiki without damaging it and its content. Using the tools shows the precision necessary for an article to become and stay a quality page. To me, this seems a bit like putting training wheels on a pencil, since anon edits are primarily not to exclude but to prevent quick "whack-a-hole" vandalism. This system would allow edits from people who are, frankly, too inexperienced or too lazy to create an account and edit themselves. Hopefully I don't sound too elitist in this and got my point across. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:09, 23 February 2008 (CST)

: I don't believe you're being elitist at all. These are very good points, and we shouldn't dumb things down too much. Alleviating these issues (for those with the seeds of competency) may be as simple as clarifying how to edit a wiki, or making the help/tutorial system more noticeable or open. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:17, 23 February 2008 (CST)
: Surprisingly, I think there's still a class of users out there that are intelligent, competent, and good writers, but still scared of editing a wiki. When you first hit the "Edit" button, and see all the brackets, colons, asterisks, tildas, etc, it can be pretty intimidating, even to experience computer users. For example, the Battlestar Central peeps, responsible for the Battlestar Libra chronicles, have exhibited a reluctance to edit wikis (both this one and Battlestar Pegasus). This, despite the fact that they have proven competency (or even mastery in some cases) of BBCode, which is as complex, if not more in some cases, than WikiCode. I would be interested in capturing the input of users like them. I'll grant that creating an account and "fixing it yourself" is sometimes going to be the simpler solution than filing a ticket, but that option is still available. Hopefully the tickets would open the wiki to more people (which groks well with the more people = better wiki principle), without creating (hopefully) the same headaches and vandalism that allowing anonymous users to post can cause. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:44, 24 February 2008 (CST) 

::I think noticability is the right word here. Right now, you can only find them by clicking the [[BW:TUT]] link in your welcome message, but you'll only get that message after creating an account, which you usually only do when facing the "you must log in to edit pages" message. Catch-22. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 16:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::You also get there by clicking on "help" in the navigation box on the left. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:33, 23 February 2008 (CST)
::::Maybe instead of "help" to "Help/Tutorial" and also "New User?" :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 18:35, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::::Well, I was thinking along the lines of two different tutorials. One for new contributors, and a second for people who merely use the wiki. (For instance, how do I change skins? Where's the search bar? Etc.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:39, 23 February 2008 (CST)
@@ Line 23: / Line 23: @@
 : I don't believe you're being elitist at all. These are very good points, and we shouldn't dumb things down too much. Alleviating these issues (for those with the seeds of competency) may be as simple as clarifying how to edit a wiki, or making the help/tutorial system more noticeable or open. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:17, 23 February 2008 (CST)
 : Surprisingly, I think there's still a class of users out there that are intelligent, competent, and good writers, but still scared of editing a wiki. When you first hit the "Edit" button, and see all the brackets, colons, asterisks, tildas, etc, it can be pretty intimidating, even to experience computer users. For example, the Battlestar Central peeps, responsible for the Battlestar Libra chronicles, have exhibited a reluctance to edit wikis (both this one and Battlestar Pegasus). This, despite the fact that they have proven competency (or even mastery in some cases) of BBCode, which is as complex, if not more in some cases, than WikiCode. I would be interested in capturing the input of users like them. I'll grant that creating an account and "fixing it yourself" is sometimes going to be the simpler solution than filing a ticket, but that option is still available. Hopefully the tickets would open the wiki to more people (which groks well with the more people = better wiki principle), without creating (hopefully) the same headaches and vandalism that allowing anonymous users to post can cause. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:44, 24 February 2008 (CST)
-::Ooh! What about a page that explicitly shows "translations" between BBCode and wikicode? That might be helpful to experienced forum users... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:48, 24 February 2008 (CST)
-:::That would work! I can generate something tonight, hopefully. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 09:54, 24 February 2008 (CST)
-:::Oh, and I just found [http://mediawiki.fckeditor.net/index.php/Main_Page this "what you see is what you get" editor would work]. Looks like it'd work! I may try it out on BSP first. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 09:58, 24 February 2008 (CST)
-::::Neat! A lot of forums use that to generate BBCode (though I find I like Battlestar Forum's, because it prompts for the web address when doing urls instead of forcing you to put it in the leading url tag manually). That might be a big win for usability. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:25, 24 February 2008 (CST)
-:::::Agreed. I've deployed it on BSP. Also, what's cool about it is that you can disable the rich editor depending on the namespace via the [http://www.battlestarpegasus.com/wiki/Special:Preferences Special:Preferences] ''and'' people can easily switch between wikitext and the WYSIWYG. The only downside is that it appears to convert interwiki links into external links, like [[bsp:Portal:Time Machine/Script archive|here]]. Oh, and unfortunately, it does disrupt [http://dev.fckeditor.net/ticket/1882 interlanguage links]... :( However, seeing as BSP isn't i18n-lized like BW, this isn't a problem there. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 21:03, 24 February 2008 (CST)
 ::I think noticability is the right word here. Right now, you can only find them by clicking the [[BW:TUT]] link in your welcome message, but you'll only get that message after creating an account, which you usually only do when facing the "you must log in to edit pages" message. Catch-22. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 16:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)
 :::You also get there by clicking on "help" in the navigation box on the left. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:33, 23 February 2008 (CST)
 ::::Maybe instead of "help" to "Help/Tutorial" and also "New User?" :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 18:35, 23 February 2008 (CST)
 :::::Well, I was thinking along the lines of two different tutorials. One for new contributors, and a second for people who merely use the wiki. (For instance, how do I change skins? Where's the search bar? Etc.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:39, 23 February 2008 (CST)
-:What's the 411 on this project?  I know a lot of things got put on hiatus because of our Props Project and guess this is one such example.--[[User:Jonathan|Jonathan]] 00:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)