Editing Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive5

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== Summary issue ==

Starting from "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]", I've noticed that we've broken down the episodes by acts, instead of summaries. Is this something we want to continue doing? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:13, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:It was done in "The Eye of Jupiter" because that episode really needed a chronological summary instead of breaking it down by places. Now that the baseship storyline is over, it's not necessary to deal with each plotline seperately anymore. So yes, we can keep it that way --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:29, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:: Right, so that means we have to go through and re-summarize "[[Rapture]]" and "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:::Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant we can keep the breakdown by acts IMO. No re-organizing needed. Before EoJ many episodes had "On Galactica" and "On a baseship", but that was largely because there were really widely different settings that weren't connected at all (or the Fleet and Caprica in Season 1). 
:::However, even before that some episodes had different sections with "On Colonial One" if a recall correctly. But I don't think that's very useful if the scenes are just set on another ship in the Fleet. So I'd say we only break apart episodes by locations if there are really two or more unconnected plotlines. Otherwise a breakdown by acts is fine. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:08, 30 January 2007 (CST)
: Actually, what I was referring to was that we have each act broken down in its own section under "summary", such as in "[[Rapture]]" (Teaser, Act 1, Act 2, etc.). In earlier episode guides, such as "[[33]]", we merely created sections for "On ''Galactica''" and "On Caprica". I see the point for doing the act-by-act breakdown in "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]", since there was a lot there story-wise. However, "Rapture" and "Taking a Break..." don't have this issue, and I was merely wondering if we wanted to have an act-by-act summary instead of an overall episode summary. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 17:23, 30 January 2007 (CST)
::Oh yeah. Not a big issue then, but listing the acts helps to break up such a huge chunk of text. You'll also notice that the earlier summaries were also far less detailed. These days we summarize every single scene instead of just the most important ones (though some like "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" would really benefit from some expansion). I find that the use of "Act.." headers makes it a bit easier to read than just a long stream of bullet points --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:47, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:::I concur. The more of them I've made lately, the better that using Acts work. Easier to write too, chronologically. I'll add it to my to-do list to rewrite summaries for better cohesion. Do we want to do TOS articles in the same fashion? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

O.K., let's see what everyone else thinks before we go off and rewrite summaries, though. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:15, 30 January 2007 (CST)

:Way back in the day, I suggested that we do it by acts, however, I can see where this might not be usefull. Interlaced acts that have nothing to do might be better by location. Just like the early episodes where Helo was on Caprica and Galactica was in space, I can see where it is useful. Acts are good for intercrossed locations. (i.e. "Occupation", "Exodus, Part II"). The advantage is with acts is that we can follow Podcasts better. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 22:29, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:The problem with doing it by acts is that on DVD there are no breaks. People might be unsure what bit is the end of act two or the beginning of act three --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 03:48, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::I believe that even on the DVDs, you can skip between acts, the player display's number increments for every act, and there should be a short fade to black. Even if there isn't, a wide shot of the fleet often announces a new act.--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:On topic, I think that breaking up summaries in acts should actually be the '''default''' way to do stuff, unless we have a good reason not to do so (i.e. completely seperate storylines, like Season 1, early Season 2 and the first half of Season 3). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::Is this just for RDM episode summaries, or is it retroactive to include TOS and 1980? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::: I would make it retroactive and universal. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 17:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::While the 1980 episodes I have are broadcast (and so we've got acts to go by), I only have TOS on DVD's. Will we just guestimate act breaks based on scenes? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:01, 15 February 2007 (CST)

Just a couple of comments: For new episodes, it could be discussed and decided before the editing freeze is lifted. May want to write-up a Think-tank proposal (or maybe just a policy page) just to get organized and set guidelines. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 1 February 2007 (CST)

=== Vote ===

I guess I should just put this to a formal vote. Using {{tl|support}}, {{tl|oppose}} or {{tl|neutral}}, please vote below:

To summarize, we are voting on changing the summaries to act-by-act summary breakdowns, unless there are two distinct storylines (such as the Fleet and Cylon-Occupied Caprica storyline in season 1 and in the first half of season 2 -- or "Season 2.0"). 

# {{support}} -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 17:21, 31 January 2007 (CST)
# {{support}} --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:26, 31 January 2007 (CST)
# {{support}} --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:47, 31 January 2007 (CST)
# {{support}} [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:05, 31 January 2007 (CST)
# {{support}} We need to mark which is which before diving in, but otherwise, it's cool. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:21, 1 February 2007 (CST)
# {{support}} --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:40, 1 February 2007 (CST)
# {{support}} Don't forget about Season 3.0. @Spencerian: I think in most cases it will be clear which is which, and if the summary-writer(s) get(s) it wrong, we can always call a vote. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:00, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== stating the ship type all the time ==

What I mean is that a lot of articles start with or contain sentences like "...is a pilot assigned to battlestar ''Galactica''". Maybe it's just me, but it sounds odd, and most of all very repetitive.

I don't think that in real life many people say "assigned to aircraft carrier so and so". If anything I feel it should say "...the battlestar ''Galactica''", with a definite article.

But all in all, I think that it is unnecessary to specify the ship type every single time. Everyone knows it's a battlestar. It doesn't have to be repeated ad nauseum. The succession boxes is another place where that is not needed. I don't know how this developed, but it seems to be some kind of quasi-standard. And I've removed it many of my latest edits, only leaving it where it has really a point. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:12, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:A lot of contributors appear to like doing that. I allow it once in an article with full wiki links to both "battlestar" and "Galactica", and remove any others. Similarly, some editors want to wikify "Galactica" every time. I'm ambivalent of the use of "the battlestar ''Galactica''" but I definitely crack down on the use of "the ''Galactica''." We can add a simple line to the definite articles section about the overuse and recommending not to. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:30, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Yeah, I'm against "the ''Galactica''" too (it's used on the show, but it sounds a bit odd there too). But "the battlestar Galactica" is ok for me. It sounds right to me because the "the" refers to the ship type. Just "...battlestar ''Galactica''" makes it sound like "battlestar" is part of ship's name -- though oddly, that is alright in the role field of character boxes. 
::I can't really bring forth many real arguments though; it's mainly a feeling. Though even with that, I think it's unnecessary to automatically use it, unless there is a really good reason to say that it's a battlestar.  --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:50, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::One of the reasons you might see battlestar appended to ''Galactica'' is that it is the name of the show, and so I think in some people's mind that might sound a bit more dramatic (coming full circle with the name of the show). What they may not see, however, is all the other places where it is also done, and how the effect (if there was one to begin with) quickly loses its effect when repeated ad infinitum throughout the site. I don't really feel too strongly on the issue myself, other than to note that the redundant use of battlestar is less concise, which might anger (or sadden) the "concision fairy". And we don't want that. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:59, 15 February 2007 (CST)

::::IMO "the Battlestar ''Galactica''" is OK in some cases, but in all other cases "''Galactica''" should be used. "The ''Galactica''" is said only in the Miniseries, IIRC. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:18, 15 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Am I the only one who doesn't really have any problem with using "the ''Galactica''?" --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:15, 15 February 2007 (CST)
::::::It's not REALLY that big of a deal, and they used to do it all the time back in TOS. However, in order to provide a uniform viewing/reading experience we needed to pick one way and stick with it. We chose to go with the US Navy writing convention of not using the "the" in front. Also (although this didn't factor into the decision, I don't think) if you count up the characters saved by NOT using "the" in front of every instance, you're probably saving a startling amount of storage space (maybe even several kilobytes... :P) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:31, 15 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::Those saved KBs will allow two extra visitors before the server crashes (if we ever get Slashdotted :P). Seriously, we chose a convention to go with, so for the sake of consistency we should use it everywhere. BTW, is this particular convention mentioned in [[BW:SAC]]? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:42, 15 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::Yeah, the use - or not - of the definite article is mentioned --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:47, 15 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::But the use of the ship class (which this entire section is about, see its title) is not mentioned --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:57, 15 February 2007 (CST)

All, this argument has been already discussed, ad nauseum, over a year ago. The primary reason, as noted by many, is for consistency here for the wiki. Characters in both shows say "Galactica" or "the Galactica." But here, to keep an article from sounding like it's written in many voices, we stick to one constant. Yes, this is already an established policy. See [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Standards_and_Conventions/Archive01#Ship_Naming.2C_Abbrevation_and_Capitalization_Standards this link] for the previous archived discussion on this talk page, and the subarticle of the parent, "Ships". The only time that "battlestar" should be capitalized is in the show name, although a sentence that begins (and appears) like "Battlestar ''Galactica'' hit a pothole near the Ionian system" is acceptable. I used to capitalize it myself, it seemed more "dramatic." But since I become of the Body, I know I'll be stoned if I say otherwise--and not in a good way. We should have a really good reason to change an established policy; it's gone through the crucible once already. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:03, 15 February 2007 (CST)
:The sidetracking above aside, this is neither about using the definite article, nor is about capitalizing the word "battlestar". Both things which I'm well aware of and agree with. It's about the constant use of the word in front of ship names. Though I removed it in many articles by now --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:18, 15 February 2007 (CST)
:<nowiki><toomuchcoffee></nowiki>OK, I understand. I recommend that we add to the Ship section: "It is unnecessary to use the modifier of "battlestar" (as in "battlestar ''Galactica''") more than once (and only at the start of the article) for the same reason it is unnecessary to say "starship ''Enterprise''" or "battleship ''Yamato''" throughout any text. Using the ship's classification repetitively in this fashion is distracting and also adds unnecessarily to the size of an article." <nowiki></toomuchcoffee></nowiki> --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:40, 15 February 2007 (CST)
::Support. Keep it up with the coffee. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:44, 15 February 2007 (CST)
::Done. It says everything that needs to be said. But I removed the part about "only at the start of an article", as there can be instances when it's alright or even necessary to use it later too. For example you're writing about a character and need to say "was transferred to the battlestar..." halfway down. Or it could say "The Fleet was joined by the battlestar ''Pegasus''".

== Episode Guide Sections ==

Current convention is Questions, Analysis, Notes. I think this should be reversed to Notes, Analysis, Questions. Rationalle:

Notes are simple pieces of noteworthy information that do not require explication. Analysis discusses inferences and ramifications of aforesaid notes, and Questions explores missing information which cannot be covered in Analysis. The logical reading order is from most factually established information to least, not the other way around. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:42, 17 February 2007 (CST)
:It's sensible, and may prevent repetitive data as the most imformative stuff is more to the forefront of the article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:45, 17 February 2007 (CST)
:Add Official Statements after notes? Otherwise Ditto. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 14:53, 17 February 2007 (CST)
::Could go either way on that. On the one hand, they often answer questions that the audience would otherwise be left wondering about, so they should be located beforehand. On the other, they aren't actual episode content, so it makes sense to demote them to the end of the article with a "see official statements" link in the relevant question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:06, 17 February 2007 (CST)
:I think that analysis and notes are the most important and interesting. Questions aren't that important and often too trivial IMHO. Putting them more towards the end makes sense from both an objective and my subjective point of view. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:56, 17 February 2007 (CST)
::I support Peter Farago's plan, but I do propose we postpone it until after the end of this season. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:35, 18 February 2007 (CST)
:::Why? It's a three-hour project at most. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:52, 18 February 2007 (CST)
::::You'd be surprised how much difficulty we have in getting the regular podcasts done before the next one appears. Currently, we're still missing Act 4 from [[Podcast:The Woman King|The Woman King]], while the podcast for [[A Day In The Life]] is probably up already. Steelviper and I are doing what we can, but we appear not to have enough spare time. More stuff to transcribe is the last thing we want right now. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:08, 18 February 2007 (CST)
:::::All we're talking about doing is changing the order of sections in an episode guide - it has nothing whatever to do with transcription. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:37, 18 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I'm sorry, I typed my reply in a hurry and mixed up this discussion with the one about transcribing Q&A's. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:34, 19 February 2007 (CST)
: Sensible. I'm go for it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 17:34, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Is this still on? It's something that could be done now. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:17, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:Yep. It's on the "[[Battlestar_Wiki:Community_Portal/Goals|List]]". I even solicited for members of "Project Rewatch" on scifi.com to lend a hand with this (since they'll be rewatching them all anyway), though I haven't seen anything come of that yet. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:29, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
::You are referring to a conversion of everything to act breakdowns. This is about a re-ording of the different subsections like Analysis, Notes and Questions. But I can do that later today. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:37, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

== [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Article Size|Wikipedia:Article Size]], Part 2 ==

:''[[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Standards_and_Conventions/Archive4#Wikipedia:Article_Size|Archived Location]] on discussion.

We need to implement this. Bios are getting to big to handle on one page. Look at [[Lee Adama]] and [[Galen Tyrol]]. There are over 24 subheadings on bio between the two of them. Now, thank god I read fast, but if I wanted to get to the point real quick, I have to read each characters by day. I expect "lists" pages to be long (i.e. [[Special:Longpages]]) but not bios. So... what should we do? [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 08:45, 26 February 2007 (CST)

:I don't see the problem just yet. Yeah, some of the character bios are getting very long, but for now I can live with it. The headers help to break up the text into smaller chunks. But how do you propose to break it up into smaller articles? Going by seasons would probably work best. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:57, 27 February 2007 (CST)

:I still say summarize. Not every last activity about a character is important - for example, who cares about Kara Thrace's activities in the last episode, "Dirty Hands"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:06, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Proper nouns (or not) ==

For technical reasons all articles need to start with capital letters. What I noticed quite a bit is that people then treat it as a proper noun instead of recognizing the technical limitation. "Algae planet" for example. Or worse "Algae Planet", as often the second word is also capitalized for no reason. So, should we mentioned that article names should only have one capitalized word and that the links should not be capitalized either (unless it's really a proper noun of course). Or would that just create more red tape, as we already have tons of rules about small stuff? Might seem like too much for new people. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:52, 27 February 2007 (CST)
:Easier to fix, than to implement. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 11:02, 27 February 2007 (CST)
::Doesn't [[BW:TERM]] already implement this? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:04, 27 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not really. That just lists terms for stuff that hasn't been given a name. But Shane is probably right, that it's easier just to edit articles than make a rule about it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:13, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Book titles ==

The advice in this project page to put quotes around book titles (and "other publications" to the extent that it refers to complete publications, not articles or other subcomponents of a publication) not only conflicts with itself (because it says later to italicize newspaper titles and those of other "larger works"), but also conflicts with pretty much every English-language style guide ever published.  Book titles are italicized, as are magazine names, and other titles/names of self-complete publications and productions (movies, stage plays, TV series).  Book chapters, TV show episodes, newspaper/magazine articles, named stage play acts, and other such subcomponents of larger works get quotation marks. Having book titles in quotes in here looks very amateurish and sloppy. :-(  17:49, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
:True. Books are generally italicized. But don't we do this already sometimes? Case in point [[Encyclopedia Galactica]]. Or the footnotes in [[Filming locations (RDM)]] for example. Though some other articles (about the books themselves) use neither quotes nor italics. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:53, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

== Date Standard ==

We we talking about this before, somewhere else, can't remember where, but any-who -- we should come up with a date standard. most of our stuff has 3 different date types. Broadcast data, episode guide (mostly BIO), and then the template in which we have for broadcast information with links and time of the broadcaster. So.. uniformed dates. Any ideas throw them out. I follow the consenus because I am almost ready to work on a new set of these broadcast templates from the redesigned [[md:Template:Master screencap|Template:Master screencap]] on the media wiki. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 03:28, 28 January 2008 (CST)
: For infoboxes and templates, I would prefer the use of '''YYYY-MM-DD'''. For citations and regular prose, I would prefer that we stick to '''DD Month YYYY''', thus getting rid of the comma. Although it's common to do the reverse, it simply reads better. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 13:29, 16 February 2008 (CST)