Editing Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive1

'''DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.'''

This archive page covers approximately the dates between September 10th, 2005 and the present.

Post replies to the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions|main talk page]], copying the section you are replying to if necessary.  (See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]].)

Please add new archivals to the bottom of this page, or to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02]] if this page exceeds 32 kilobytes. Thank you. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:35, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

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==Verb Tense==
:''(moved from [[Battlestar Wiki:Characters]])''
What about it? Some pages are written in the present tense, some in the past and some switch. I, personally, prefer past tense. That way, in ten years, it doesn't sound like the show just aired. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:24, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:I favor present tense, which is traditional for discussing fictional characters ("Achilles '''kills''' Hector in Book 22 of the Illiad, not "Achilles '''killed''' Hector in Book 22 of the Illiad".)

:The battle summaries would be a possible exception to this - as histories, the narrative flows best in the past tense, but as fiction, the events are "always" occurring every time the viewer watches - but that should be dealt with elsewhere. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:29, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

::Hrm. Point. I was thinking, though, that when you read, for instance, the Lord of the Rings, "Gandalf said" rather than "says" and "Frodo did" rather than "does." However, this is a concern to more than just character pages... So where do we put it? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:31, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

When speaking of works of fiction, technically either past or present is correct, as long as one stays uniform.  More traditionally, you would speak of a fictional work in the present tense (if you were giving a book report, for example) beacuse the work is considered timeless. If I review The Illiad today, someone who reads my review 50 years from now can read the book. I feel the same applies here. 

In response to [[User:Day|Day]]'s concern about where to put it, there seems to be no central point for the guideline once it's decided. We could have a general "BSG Wiki Standards" page that would outline the preferred methods for future editors. Anyone else have any thoughts? [[User:Colonial one|Colonial one]] 21:25, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:A good future idea, but I'm not ready to go there yet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:30, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

::Okay, I'm game. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:24, 9 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Check this out, then: [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]]. I hope no one beat me to the punch. I've not put much on it, but I'll move this discussion to it's talk page, at least. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:07, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

==Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards==

I find myself a stickler on the use of "Twelve Colonies" or "the Colonies" rather than "12 Colonies" as it appears more as a country's name, such as "United States." Other items, I feel, should be reviewed, such as placing ship names in italics per print convention (such as ''Galactica''), the use of "Mark" when referring to the Vipers ("Viper Mark VII" and not "mk. VII" or "Mk. VII"). Likewise, "Colonial" should always be capitalized thusly, although "colony" remains uncapitalized for the same reason we do not capitalize "state" when referring to one of the United States. Perhap military rank abbreviations should also be looked into. Any more of these for debate or discussion? [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:02, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

: I agree on the Twelve Colonies. I have no opinion on the italicization or not of ship names and will go with whatever the consensus is without complaint. I'm not sold on the issue of "Mark" vs. "Mk." I like the way "Viper Mark VII" looks, but I think we should go with whatever current military notation is for things like this. I can't come up with any current tech off hand that uses the "mark" version numbering, but if it's common in the US (or whatever other) military to use the abbreviation, then I think we should also allow it. I agree on Colonial and colony. Could you elaborate on what about military rank abbreviations should be looked into? You mean just to make sure we've got the right ones and to make note of them on this page for reference, or... what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:42, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

::I believe that Mk. and Mark can be used interchangably but, at least in the Royal Air Force, Mark was always abbreviated Mk. in the official designations eg. Spitfire Mk. 1. Now they just drop the Mark altogether, like Vampire FB.4. Definitely agree ship names should be in italics. The rank abbreviations should just be like the modern US military eg. Cpt (Captain), CPO (Chief Petty Officer), etc. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:::I like the way "Mark" looks, but I wouldn't mind "Mk", either. Maybe future episodes will reveal which they use in the BSG universe. I agree on the other points under discussion. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:52, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
::::Well, in the mini, the signs in the Galactica museum say Viper Mk. 2. Personally, I feel that Mk. II looks better. In the RAF, the aircraft designations in the years around WWII used Roman numerals until about 20 so Spitfire Mk. VII, Seafire F. Mk. 32. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:00, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::: I think we should do it the way it's done on the show, but we don't have to go by one sign in one scene. I'm really of no opinion on this at the moment. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 22:48, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::: In my capacity as resident Concision Fairy, I obviously prefer Mk. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:59, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::::So say we all. "Mk." it should be, O Concision Fairy (though that title sounds a bit painful to me...) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:46, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::::Updated the Viper page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:22, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ship names should be italicized. Commercial vessels are referred to with a definitive article ("The ''Rising Star''"), but military vessels are not ("''Galactica''"). There are grey areas - the ''Astral Queen'' has been referred to both ways, I think. Question: in the series, is ''Galactica'' a "she" or an "it"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::Well, in the miniseries, Tyrol refers to the hanger deck as a she, "Let's get the old girl ready to go and..." The ''Galactica'' is probably a she, at least in my opinion. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:19, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::"She" appears to be the common way that all capital naval ships are deemed, and Galactica seems not to be an exception. Unless there's any further objection, I call for these standards to be added to the project page by our Concision Fairy. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:46, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: I'm no Concision Fairy, but I went ahead and added the above mentioned guidelines to Spelling and Ships. Did I miss anything? Should we make a note about rank abbreviations, too? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::Yeah, seriously. You can always do it yourself, Spence :-) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::::I wrote a list of the abbreviations on the BSG rank page, I'll add it to the talk page there for now. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::: For quick reference, Talos' rank abbreviation idea is here: [[Talk:Military Ranks]] --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:04, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

PLEASE NOTE: Use of "Mk." is not ''mandated'' just ''acceptable''. So don't feel compelled to go changing all the instances of "Viper Mark II" to "Viper Mk. II." Both are fine, so don't make more work for yourself than you have to. That is all. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:56, 16 September 2005 (EDT)
:It's mostly in the titles and captions like the pictures in the Viper page. I'm also cleaning up the mks and such. I think there was a really bad mkVII I fixed. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:40, 16 September 2005 (EDT)

Should we use the definate article or not?  That is, is it "The Galactica" or "Galactica"?  Characters say both throughout the series.  Is there indeed a standard convention or not?  There is an actual way of solving this without just guesswork:  seeing as BSG is grounded in realism by RDM, I think it should use whatever standard they US Navy uses.  But I don't know how to look up something like that.  Still, do US Navy ships get referred to by the definate article?   (I really only started noticing this on Star Trek around the time of Voyager and Enterprise:  Next Gen referred to the ship as "The Enterprise" and DS9 called their ship "The Defiant".  However, Voyager routinely called the ship just "Voyager" not "The Voyager" and Enterprise switched to calling the ship "Enterprise" constantly.  Why this was done I don't know.  What is the proper standard?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]], 19 Sept, 2005
:In response to this I went to the official websites of several US Navy ships. None of them used the definate article. This is a quote from Enterprise.navy.mil, "Enterprise is currently undergoing an extensive yard period in Northrop Grumman Newport News Shipyard in Newport News, Va." --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:22, 19 September 2005 (EDT)
::That was what we concluded in the earlier conversation on this topic, and is reflected in the current guideline. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:33, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

== Signing Your Work ==

I've noticed some pages are signed by the "Colonial Archivist" which is actually a pipe-link to someone's user page. I can't recall if it's always the same person or not, but--This is not preferred, right? If I see an article (episode guide or anything), I can take this out without fear of reprisal, yes? --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:39, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:I've been deleting it. No article or section of article belongs to any one person. Cheers, [[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:41, 13 September 2005 (EDT).

==Spelling==
:''(moved from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Welcome, newcomers]])''
Do we want to prefer Americah or British English spelling in this Wiki?  I am seeing a confusing mix of both in many pages.
--[[User:Laven|Laven]] 02:40, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)
: American spelling, whenever possible. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:24, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Single-name Address==
There are two currently active characters who share the same last name: Bill and Lee Adama; and Saul and Ellen Tigh.

It is often tempting to refer to Lee and Ellen by their first names, and (Bill) Adama and (Saul) Tigh by their last. I personally find this somewhat condescending. Jeanne Cavelos, author of the only good Babylon 5 tie-in novel "The Shadow Within", had this to say on the matter:

:''I used first names ... to differentiate between Anna Sheridan and John Sheridan. If I'd called them both Sheridan, that would have been a bit confusing. One person who read an early draft didn't understand why I didn't called John Sheridan "Sheridan" and Anna Sheridan "Anna." To him, this seemed the obvious way this issue should be handled. This, unfortunately, has been the standard for a long time. The man is known by his last name while the woman is known by her first. I found this totally inappropriate. Anna and John are equals, and should be dealt with on an equal level.''

In my opinion, especially on their own bio pages, characters are entitled to use their last names alone to refer to themselves. Elsewhere, I would advocate disambiguation by using first names, as Cavelos suggests. Evidently [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] disagrees with me, based on his recent edit to [[Ellen Tigh]]. I'd like to hear his opinion on the matter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:31, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:I definitely agree that addressing women by their first names is totally inappropriate. Come on, we live in the 21st century.  Characters should always be referred to by their last names, except in cases of ambiguity (as you mentioned). --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 22:46, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I have the same intuition as Cavelos' friend. Doesn't mean I'm right. Just noting. I agree that on Lee's page, he's Adama and on Bill's page, ''he's'' Adama. However, I think Saul gets more weight than Ellen on the name Tigh for one reason: He's Colonel Tight. She's... uh... Mrs. Tigh, I guess. And, if I had to pick something, I'd say that Bill gets precedence because he's older than Lee and because he outranks his son. However, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, here. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:59, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I understand the convention that Peter states and appreciate Fang Aili's thoughts as well. But Ellen is a secondary character, so the level of ambiguity between she and her husband was mashing me in the face as I read the page. But, if we go by the same standard that Fang Aili stated on the inappropriateness of using the first name for a female, then using Saul's first name alone is equally inappropriate unless we have a double-standard on this. So, to satisfy both conditions, I recommend we use "Saul Tigh" or "Colonel Tigh" in full whenever he is mentioned in the article, with "Tigh" referring to his wife. If we get an consensus, one of us can edit those changes in, unless there's another option that needs more discussion here. Normally on the Adama pages, I use first name or rank to differentiate the two Adamas. Since Ellen has no rank, her last name is all we have beyond using pronouns. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::So we'll change her back to just "Tigh" in the dialog snippets? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:23, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::: You and I understood Fand differently, Spence. I took the inappropriateness remark to be refering to women by their first names ''because'' they're women, not that it was inappropriate for other reasons. Thus, we can call Ellen Tigh "Ellen" as long as we also call Saul Tigh "Saul". Take my meaning? I mean--half the time I call Starbuck "Kara" without any need for disambiguation at all. I don't feel that's inappropriate (obviously), but I also don't think Fang was asserting it was. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::: The page [[Ellen Tigh]] contains a number of exchanges between her and Tom Zarek. Right now it takes the pattern Elllen (Tigh), (Tom) Zarek. My point is that it should be Ellen and Tom, or Tigh and Zarek. Since the page belongs to Ellen Tigh explicitly, there's no need to disambiguate when referring to her by her last name - it should be the default assumption. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::::: I concur. Those should be Tigh and Zarek. I think we should use last names in all cases where it's unambiguous and on a character's own page and only use first names when there is a possibility for confusion. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: If we have a consensus, I'd like to add this to the main page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:18, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

== Episode Links and Formatting ==

We're frequently inconsistent with how episode names are shown in pages. In episode synopses, we usually place the name in parentheses ([[Final Cut|Like This]]). The period should be after the parentheses, not before if I remember my English style correctly. When we're talking about an episode in a sentence, such as in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" when Starbuck gives Racetrack's face a crash into a table. There are quotations around the episode name sometimes, sometimes not. Early on, I placed my episode names in italics but stopped that when I realized very few others did. Any thoughts on how this should be done? [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:49, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:I've been using the same convention as you. It seems to work well --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:08, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Cool. I don't think I've had occasion to mention episode names much, but these conventions seem good to me. I kinda like italics, but I'm easy. So... After a few days of this being up in case someone wants to dissent, I think we should go ahead and add it to the actual page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:43, 22 September 2005 (EDT)