Editing Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy/Archive01

'''DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.'''

This archive page covers approximately the dates between July 17th, 2005 and September 23rd, 2005.

Post replies to the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy|main talk page]], copying the section you are
replying to if necessary.  (See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]].)

Please add new archivals to the bottom of [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy/Archive02|Archive 02]]. Thank you. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 14:36, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
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== Complaints and Concerns ==

I hate the spoiler policy. I don't want to be spoiled. I won't be using or contributing to the site significantly until after the end of the season and before you start spoiling season 3.

Character summaries in particular should be free of spoilers like "died in tbe episode Scattered," (before it aired), especially when the character doesn't die in Scattered after all when it finally airs.

Socinus lives!

-MHall

: I personally go by group consensus. If the consensus is that spoiler information is used, then that's the consensus; if it is vice-versa, then spoiler information isn't used (or packaged so as not to spoil the casual reader).  As we're an '''information resource and episode guide''', spoilers are a necessary evil.  Some of the spoiler information changes from script to shooting, hence the inaccurate statement of Socinus' death in "Scattered"; it doesn't preclude him dying later on due to his injuries, so he may still die this season.  

: For instance, I noted that details often change from the initial script to the final shooting. Permit me to use Boomer as an example: her being a human Cylon was never in the previous versions of the mini-series script, but changed -- indirectly -- after one of Ron Moore's friends made a quip about there not being a "By your command" line in the script. (That information came from the mini-series DVD commentary track.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:41, 17 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Actually, I think that there is no way of making a spoiler-free version for everybody and making it work, too - because some country will always be the last to air the show, and by then, parts of the rest of the world will have forgotten about it already.

There is however one exception: There should really be no spoilers for shows that have not even aired, or at least not anywhere but that episode's summary. Otherwise, there is really no way one can enjoy this wiki ''and'' the show. (Happened for me with Home II.) I would even go as far as extending the no-spoilers for not-yet-aired shows for 24 hrs after the show, again, with the exception of the episodes's page. Because, let's fact it, lots of people will use P2P to see the show, because otherwise it would be years until they get to see it. (And if they are unlucky, they would have to see a synchronised version, too.) So the latter suggestion would enable them to look up things here while not having to wait for the show to arrive.

And one final thing: Spoiling from the scripts does not even make much sense - as the first poster on this page points out; and the audio comments imply the same. So my guess would be that spoiling not-yet aired shows will put off users from using this site, which is hardly a good thing, and it doesn't make much sense in the first place to do so, because the scripts will not air the way they were written, anyway. So I really would suggest a <u> No spoilers for unaired shows</u> policy. -- [[User:Still not king|Still not king]] 12:32, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

::I agree. We gain very little by jumping the gun on upcoming episode spoilers - for example, I didn't need to know that spoileriffic note on the episode summary for [[Resurrection Ship]] at all. There's no reason not to be patient with these things. I do not agree, however, with a 24 hour injunction against posting episode details - we should be able to start wiki-ing as soon as it airs in our respective timezones. If we want to stay spoiler free on the west coast, we can always just not log on during the three hour window. Likewise, when the brits start getting Season 2, Part II before we do, we shouldn't force ourselves to wait for the U.S. airings. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:45, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

:::I was intentionally proposing ''just'' 24 hours - that is what it might take to get to see the show if you have to get it by P2P, and in the meantime, one might still want to check out something -- not the episode summary, of course, but a plain page about a character. It's a minor part of my proposal, though -- the important one is No spoilers of unaired shows. -- [[User:Still not king|Still not king]] 20:13, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

::::I really like the idea of not posting regarding unaired shows. There's no way to avoid spoilers for shows that have aired already, but the show doesn't really exist until it's aired, in a way (insofar that it might be changed). I also really like the idea of a 24-hour wait period after the first (and thus, British, right?) air time. A day isn't that long, really, and I'm not sure about anyone else, but these episodes make my mind race and I'd probably be too excited if I went straight from the sofa to the computer after watching. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:35, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:::::One of the nice things about the wiki system is that if you post something innacurate or overzealous, someone else can come along and tone it down a bit. I'm starting a vote. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 15:03, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:This is rediculous. You come onto a site that has a quite obvious spoiler policy on the front fage, you go to read about upcoming episodes, and then you cry about being spoiled. Gee, obviously the best way to solve this is to stop people from posting new information. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 08:51, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:The whole debate is a bit odd to me.  "Spoilers" by definition have to do with un-aired episodes, and anything written about un-aired episodes is, by definition, speculation.  That speculation may be more informed or less, but it's still just that, ''speculation''.  You have to watch the episode to find out what actually happens.  If anything maybe there should be a reminder on un-aired ep pages that the information may or may not be accurate.  Back in the day, there was another sci-fi show, "Babylon 5" which had/has a website much like this one - "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5." The Lurker's Guide, while being an accurate and detailed guide to the show, was also a haven for every kind of spoilage and speculation imaginable, which I and many others found only enhanced our enjoyment of the show. --[[User:Astarte|Astarte]] 05:22, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

::I was also a fan of the lurker's guide. I think an important difference here is that the production staff of B5 (ie, JMS) were very tight-lipped and conscious of avoiding big spoilers. The staff of the Re-imagined series have been much looser, and credible spoilers for various production details have been leaked far and wide throughout the first half of the second season. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 13:25, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

== Spoiler Warning ==

How about episode pages that have not been aired yet get a spoiler tag, so that people that can contribute to them knowing full well that they'll likely be spoiled? Same can be done with character and event pages, so that information introduced to them from episodes not yet aired can also be used on this Wiki without fear of spoiling those that do not wish it.  Thoughts?-- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:39, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:I'm afraid it wouldn't do me much good, since I read the diffs on everything on the recent edits page anyway. Maybe we could allow spoilers on episode summary pages but discourage them elsewhere? Avoiding the episode summaries isn't very hard. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:11, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I found this problem with the Pegasus ep and related data. I wanted to keep the Fall of the Twelve Colonies page accurate with what we knew about surviving Battlestars, but this is still a spoiler, so the data there is left a bit vague unless someone digs for it. Still, a spoiler is a spoiler. The talk page would satisfy both spoiler-hunter and seeker on an episode article. We'd just need to add a "Spoiler" topic there, and note to people that if you are going to see an episode page for a show that hasn't aired, you are asking for it, literally. At least the talk page has an extra layer for avoiders to have, but because of the nature of this wiki, eliminating spoilers takes away a lot of the research fun. Data's gotta go somewhere and we can't commit the juicy bits for the main page to memory until the ep is aired. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

::This is going to be awkward, but I feel like we should add this as an option in the vote. Also adding a note on approval voting. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:::I dislike the thought of having to move massive amounts of text. So far, I've been avoiding pages to do with unaired episodes. That's easy enough. My main concern is someone clicking through and wondering, "Who the ''heck'' is Gina?", thinking it's some pilot who's name they missed or some small character. Then they read about an episode they didn't want to. Or, in another case, someone reading all about Lee and the information going on, at the end, past the most recent episode. I think keeping character pages clear is the better idea. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

=== Subpage? ===

How about comitting spoilers to a subpage of an article? For instance, [[Pegasus (episode)]] would have a subpage called [[Pegasus (episode)/Spoilers]]? I believe that would be fairly straight forward, given the title of the subpage. :-)  

Then, after the episode airs, we can simply merge the contents together from the spoiler page into the main page of the article in question. Just my view. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:48, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:This sounds like a lot of work. I actually agree with Spencerian that anyone who clicks on the episode page for an unaired episode is explicitly asking for it. Additionally, those are easy edits to avoid reading. I'm going to go and complicate things now... --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:: It does, but my intent was to just throw this out there to see what everyone else thought. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:01, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:::See my note above for my thoughts on having to merge things. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

== What is a spoiler? ==
In response to Day's query below ("So what constitutes a spoiler for this new voting catagory?"): I believe a spoiler is anything from an as-yet-unaired show.  Examples: Lucy Lawless's character, Cain, Gina, etc. I think the revelation about Boomer is fair game, as that was the end of the Mini-Series.  It's hard to escape that fact when most press articles now refer to her as a Cylon.  For the purposes of my argument and vote, a "spoiler" is any information that has not yet been broadcast. Is that a fair assessment? -- [[User:Ryq|ryq]] 16:40, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I concur with this definition. I just thought it would pay to be absolutely clear. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:56, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:What about various countries using this page?  What an Australian considers a spoiler may already be known via broadcast in the states.  Using this logic, spoiler pages could end up lasting for literally months after an original broadcast. --[[User:adedward|Adedward]] 16:15, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Which is a problem with a "no spoiler" spoiler policy... Different countries see episodes at different times. Fact of the matter remains that there will always be spoilers within the wiki, so there will always be an "all spoilers permitted" policy -- in that way. The current discussion, however, is more towards spoiling episodes that haven't aired ''anywhere''. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:37, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Precisely. Once an episode has aired for the first time somewhere, then it can be said what's really in it. Before it's aired anywhere, stuff "known" about it can change and so could very well be ''dis''information. Also, regardless of what the MPAA (or whatever the acronym is) wants, once an episode airs in one place, it is very soon available via download on the internet. I don't think this site should condone such downloading, but it's a reality and, as I understand it, Australia is the leader in downloading TV programs. There's also some behavioral patterns that indicate that the SciFi Channel and SkyOne and the peroduction staff might very well be tacitly embracing this method of dissemination with the idea that it actually raises viewership numbers when the things air for the first time in an area. They've, of course, not made any official statement.

::: All that being said, I think the first air date, whether that's in the UK, the US, Australlia or [http://www.google.com/search?q=Kamchatka Kamchatka], should be that date after which comprehensive information about an episode should no longer be considered a spoiler with respect to character pages. Episode pages are, really, a finer-grained debate. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:15, 6 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I concur with Day in that I believe nothing is canon until a) the episode is legitimately broadcast anywhere, or b) TPTB declare some aspect of the show as canon.  It has been proven that scenes or characters or plots are moved, re-written or deleted between the page and the screen.  I'm concerned that some "spoilers" (ie, rumours, hear-say, etc) may reflect poorly on this wiki, and therefore spoilers should be left out of the main article (and on the Talk page) unless and until they are proven correct. For example, I do not disagree with Lucy Lawless' character having an article at this time (we know she was part of the cast), but I believe what her character says and does, and what plots involve her, should be kept on the Talk page until they are broadcast. On a related note, I am amazed at all the info you guys find about unaired shows. :) -- [[User:Ryq|ryq]] 16:08, 6 September 2005 (EDT)

==Vote==

: ''Please note that this vote is '''closed''', as of 23 September 2005.''

Vote for as many options as you agree with. Voting method is [[Wikipedia:Approval Voting|approval voting]] - place your name under every policy which would be acceptable to you; the policy acceptable to the most users wins.

Spoilers in this vote refer to details of unaired episodes. As an encyclopedia, cataloging information from already aired episodes is what we do, and is not in question. 

===All spoilers permitted (current policy)===
# [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 08:47, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 21:38, 1 September 2005 (EDT) This a reference, let's act like it.  If we have reliable information, share it with others.
# --[[User:Astarte|Astarte]] 04:50, 3 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:adedward|Adedward]] 04:11pm, 3 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:50pm, 3 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Laven|Laven]] 06:00, 5 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Howlader|Howlader]] 1622, 5 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:finnulf|Finnulf]] 1523, 8 September 2005 (EDT) Visitors should be permitted to use their judgement pertaining to spoilers; banning spoilers amounts to censorship.
# --[[User:Lone Odessan]] 1820, 11 September 2005 (EDT) 
# --[[User:Bactram]] 1400 23 September 2005 (EDT) 

===No spoilers except for episode pages===
# --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --Zareck Rocks 15:00, 31 August 2005 (EDT)--
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:57, 1 September 2005 (EDT) (I'm apparently being convinced).
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:16, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 19:55, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:21, 4 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 15:04, 6 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:17, 7 September 2005 (EDT). It could be that people surfing through an episode list would not know that a certain episode has not yet aired. Another example would be folks using the "Random page" button. Thus I suggest putting a spoiler warning at the top of any such articles. But let the speculation flow; it's half the fun.
# --[[User:JohnReese|John Reese]] 11:21, 8 September 2005 (PDT)

===No spoilers except for episode talk pages===
# --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:35, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (To compromise, make the episode's <b>TALK</b> page fair game for spoiler data.)
# --[[User:Ryq|ryq]] 19:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (I agree with Spencerian's addendum)

===No spoilers until after first episode airdate===
# --[[User:cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 22:49, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:35, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (To compromise, make the episode's <b>TALK</b> page fair game for spoiler data.)
# --[[User:Ryq|ryq]] 19:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (I agree with Spencerian's addendum)
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:45, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (So what constitutes a spoiler for this new voting catagory? Does this mean in the Mini-Series episode article, we have to take out the revelation about Boomer's heritage and move it to the talk page? Or does this new thing mean that information about unaired episodes goes on their talk pages until they've aired (or 24 hours after) when we can then move it to the main page? This new thing confuses me, which I think is apparent.)
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:06, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:15, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:BillCook|BillCook]], 6 September 2005
# --[[User:JohnReese|John Reese]] 11:21, 8 September 2005 (PDT)
# --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11 Sept, 2005
# --[[User:dhaelis|dhaelis]] Sept 13, 2005
# --[[User:Bactram]] 1400 23 September 2005 (EDT) 

===No spoilers until after first episode airdate + 24 hours===
# --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:19, 30 August 2005 (EDT)
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:06, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:15, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

==When does this vote close?==

When does this vote close? The vote is pretty close, but it's been up for a while. I don't want to propose it close right... NOW, because it could look like I'm pushing an agenda (as of this writring one of my acceptable categories is winning), but if we don't make this call ahead of time, it could always look that way. Who has the final say on policy like this, anyway? Is it Joe? If so, does he get to say when the vote ends? I'm not demanding action... just andwers. ^_^ --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:19, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:Of the three leading options, they're all within a vote of each other. I don't believe that constitutes an acceptable margin of victory to call it. If a consensus fails to emerge, we should probably throw out the results (which means we retain the status quo, ie, all spoilers permitted) and engage in another round of debate. I say this all with an eye toward pissing as few people off as possible, although at the moment the issue appears quite contentious. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 21:27, 12 September 2005 (EDT)
::Another round of debate? I would object, but there are only 2 more new episodes, and after that we have a few months to debate. I *would* like to get this decided soon, but it appears there isn't a majority. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 22:36, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Unfortunately, if there were an obvious compromise position it would have revealed its self by now. We could possibly call for a re-vote among the three tied "winners" using a [[Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_Choice_Voting|ranked voting system]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 22:52, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: I kinda thought "Spoilers on Episode Pages only" was a compromise and voted accordingly, but that's obviously subjective. I like the ranked voting idea. I've had a positive experience using what's called a Smith//Minmax system. Note I said "using" though. I have only the slightest idea how those are actually set up. My main concern, really, is character pages. I don't care if Gina has a page now, or not, but I'd rather not have a bit about how Kara will get pregnant by ''Felix'' in three episodes. If you take my meaning. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:51, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

::::: Yes, but you're one of only about three people who gave approval to both Episode pages and post-airdate. If the other voters were willing to take one or the other, I assume they'd have said so. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 23:55, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: I agree with Peter, a solution would have come up by now.  Thus, I am officially ending the vote -- though the issue is, by not means, settled. Instead, I have come up with a [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy/Compromise|draft of a revised spoiler policy]] (a compromise, if you will) that I would like to run by our users. I believe it will help piss off as few people as humanly possible. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:56, 13 September 2005 (EDT)