Editing Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/Shane

*In [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/April Arcus]] and [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/April Arcus (2)]] he initiated a string of frivolous attacks against me, in retaliation for my attempts to encourage him to pursue a more moderate behavior pattern.

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:#[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]]

:# As mentioned above, there is evidence that I've expressed my concern to Shane about his behavior. My most vehement of such expressions were in connection to his handleing of the Portals project at its inception. Since that time, I've been a bit less vocal on talk pages, etc. but have talked with Shane via the Gmail chat client and attempted to urge patience and level-headedness both in his dealings with edits and other users, as well as the specific issue if his interactions with April. I'm not certain what measures should be taken in this case, but I definately think that this issue needs some kind of official Admin response. --[[User:Day|Day]] ^{([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]])} 02:59, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

:#Yes. I agree very much with numbers 1 and 4. Shane is a good contributor, but rarely compromises and just goes ahead and does things, and gets angry and thinks we're "attacking" him when we tell him to show moderation in such matters. I mean, many times I or others here make a template change, to show how it would ''look'', as a test that is, and we're just "trying it out", but we'll change it back if it's unpopular and we haven't really implemented grand template changes on a massive scale. ---->I think the Portals project was one of the worst handled projects we've ever had. Shane made them without broad consensus but far more importantly, without planning them out far in advance. How many months were those things sitting around half finished? 2? 3? Visitors to the site probably didn't know what the heck was going on: we only just started getting a handle on the Portals. Nextly, Shane's been going into "Little Red Hen" mentality that "I made the Portals and new front page and I'm not made Administrator as a result?"--->Shane may have accumulated 5,000 edits rather quickly, but most of Shane's changes have been to the [[Wikipedia:Big Dig|Big Dig]]-like Portals project. April and myself passed 5,000 edits some time ago...the actual number doesn't mean anything towards ''Administratorship''. The Portals project and front page were not one of Shane's biggest claims to good behavior or something: they were controversial not planned out and I think a lot of you will admit caused a lot of yelling and fighting on ''BattlestarWiki''. They're nice, but in terms of "Battlestar Galactica information added" Spencerian, April, myself, Steelviper, lots of other users have contributed more, with information, with less edits. --->but moving on, '''Requests for Administratorship are sacrosanct''', and people CAN vote against you. It's actually up for Joe to determine if these votes are based on merite (that is, Spencerian pointing out that Shane has had judgement problems) vs. that loraque guy who never even comes to this wiki popping in to vote against me when he heard there was an RFC. That type of thing is up to Joe: but I think we'd all agree that April actually had "reasons" based on past behavior, for voting against Shane, and it is a ''serious sign that Shane is not yet ready to be an Administrator'', and show the moderation ability an Administrator needs, if he starts requests for comment when people vote against him. ------>Moving on, yes, an Administrator needs to be able to try to resolve disputes. I've got times I've tried to do that with other users, so has April, Spence, SV, lots of other people. Shane just gets angry when people ''disagree'' with him and acts like he's been attacked. Another aspect of the "moderation" part is deciding what to put into BSwiki--->Shane just tends to believe whatever he hears when we get rumors or new information. Case in point '''I strongly agree with April''' when it came to the Bradley Thompson thing: I'm happy it was indeed him but there's every chance it wasn't, and Shane just instantly assumed it was Thompson without confirmation...and proceeded to make more templates about official production team status and changes to his user page and such. To be honest, Shane is GREAT at making Wiki code and templates, but his contributions to the actual battlestar information *in terms of weighing options and deciding what to keep, what to concise, what to leave out and what to '''compromise with others on'''*...well he just tends to believe everything, do what he wants and then jump into a whirlwind of work without asking the rest of us. Yikes; during the Portals project's long production I remember ''several'' of us practially *Demanding* that he at least ''pause'' what he was doing, and he went on to make MORE portals. ------->I don't want to yell at Shane because he means well, but he has been pretty irresponsible. I mean I goofed up on that KR thing, but that wasn't a "behavior pattern" so much as just a big goof, and moreover, I recinded that and have been trying to come to terms with KR through PM's and other stuff on the messageboards. Six months ago I was "that hothead guy" I admit (bear in mind, in college I'm functioning on 3 hours of sleep on a regular basis and thus was predictably "short" at the time, but I'm more coherent now, and, on the whole I sohuld hope, I'm been more compromising or at least discussiing why I feel things. I don't think that in his current performance, Shane should be an Administrator so I agreed with Spencerian and April: does this mean I "hate" Shane and have a "grudge" with him? No. Nor does April. They're an Admin and they're trying to enforce our Conventions and behavior and such. Reacting to a vote against his RFA by April by making a request for comment was really a clear sign that he doesn't have the right behavior needed for Administrator status. If anything I feel that Shane's behavior "breaks even"; the portals and new front page are nice, but their creation and implementation have caused a lot of arguement here, and Shane's just seems easily bruised by comments. It took me a while to realize I couldn't respond to stuff here the way I would on a messageboard, but I ''did'' eventually. I don't think we should give Shane a warning ban or censure or such felgercarb, he's an okay guy he just needs to work on his behavior around the wiki more and show restraint a little. Six months time, who knows? things might turn around and then I'll vote for him. But right now, I dunno. I agree with April on a lot of their points, as I did with Spencerian's on the RFA. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ^{([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])} 09:51, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

:#There is little I have to add on this matter per comments on other articles, and concur with Merv's notes (if just a bit winded :). Maturity and responsibility, knowing when NOT to do something as well as when, is critical to getting along in the real world, or here. I am not against the notion of forcing Shane to calm down by a 1-week to 1-month block, but I'd rather that he show some reflection on what others have said here before we consider such action, as, despite some of the issues that April has encountered, the majority of Shane's work is worthy and well intentioned, and our wiki will be diminished a bit while he is blocked from edits. I find it interesting and pleasant that Merv (''nee'' Ricimer) has come a long way from where he began here to where I hope Shane will also be; Merv appears more enlightened on the workings of the wiki and (most importantly) interacting with the people on it, and his comments stand to that. It may be that Shane, like Merv, also a valued contributor, needs to sit back to ''understand'' and not just ''do.'' A tougher "skin" would also be appreciated. ''If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly...then don't submit it here.''--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:36, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

# Portals where not linked. They were worked on in the background. The only time I posted when I requested comments and a "poll": [[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Portals#Vote_How.3F]]. Portal work was not done with the approvoal of the wiki, but Joe: [[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Portals#Chill.2C_Cree.21]]. As you can tell there is only one section in which I post in. Other than that it was April attacking the system. April orginially filled an RFC against me for this matter and no one supported it. (I request that be retored). I am not sure if he posted out about a new portal discussion: [[Battlestar_Wiki:Portals]]

#[[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Main_page]] There is no comments from April accept them [[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Main_page#Style_Consensus]]. I requested more comment, and April did not fully explain their intensions: [[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Main_page#More_Comment]]

#http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Shane&diff=prev&oldid=52289#Status - Ignoring does not work with April so I started doing it before this.

#[[Template_talk:Email]] i never objected to it other than stating my option on the change and from what I know. April snaped at me.

#[[Battlestar_Wiki:Requests_for_comment/Shane/All_of_GMail_Conversations_with_April|Gmail conversations with April]]

#*My favorite: [[Battlestar_Wiki:Requests_for_comment/Shane/All_of_GMail_Conversations_with_April#April_Arcus_April_9]] - ''2:56 AM April: shane, I hope you'll believe me when I say that I don't mean to be insulting by telling you this, but most of the time it's extremely difficult to understand what you're talking about. It's a serious communication barrier. Can I ask if English is your first language?''

#[[Talk:Main_Page/Friends_Section]] - No one else had a problem with this other than April. And depmanding a change before people even had a chance to comment was not in good faith.

::5)  We kept waiting for you to say "this is finished", or to work on it more, and then we'd critique it....this is a hard thing to do to something perpetually half finished.  April was just doing their job.  SteelViper and I even started toying around with a mockup alternate new Main page based on MemoryAlpha's, as your's was dragging on and did not appear to be making progress.   

::7)  This is the first I've heard of you talking with [[Bradley Thompson]].  This is your own matter and you don't have to, but would you be willing to tell us what you talked about?  Why have you been doing this without telling us?  Or did you tell April & Co, how have g-mail, as I myself don't make use of it?  ***MOST IMPORTANTLY***, if you *already knew it was Bradley Thompson*, because you searched his username on Google mail (which I didn't think of as I simply do not possess a G-mail account) '''Why didn't you announce this on his user talk page?  Why did you keep it to yourself?  Even when I made a post there specifically asking for confirmation of his identity?'''  April had to call the production office themself (I do not know the specifics of this).  ---->Thompson in fact e-mailed ME, directly, telling me that I shouldn't try to confirm his identity through asking Ron Moore's wife on the messageboard, but he gave me the phone number for the production office and everything:  however, by the time I checked my e-mail, he must have given similar information to April who then phoned and confirmed it (good), so I didn't need to make mention of his e-mail anymore because it was a moot point by then--->but had April not done so first, I would have told everyone else about this when someone publicly asked for confirmation of this.

**'''Ignoring all else, can you please tell us why you did not post confirmation that this was Bradley Thompson, but instead April had to go and phone the production office itself, if you already had such information?'''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ^{([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])} 17:14, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

****Without evidence, I would have doubted it no more or less than I doubted if Ngarenn was actually Thompson based solely on his word.  But don't you think you should have....passed on this information to at least JOE, of all people?  He could try and talk to the production office or something.  You just didn't mention it at all, even when in the open I was asking "is there any way to confirm this is Thompson"-------------->Even in the e-mail he sent me (I assume April got a similar one) he said he didn't know if I'd accept an e-mail as proof, and that I should phone the production office, so he gave me the number.  Did you get a phone number, or did you trust a HOTMAIL e-mail account?  If you trusted just an e-mail from a free e-mail site....that's not really different from our initial problem that you believed "Ngarenn" at face value without (as we thought) confirming if it was Thompson or not...and on the other hand, if you didn't just trust an e-mail but actually got into a phone conversation with the production office....why didn't you foward the number to Joe, our trusted site owner, for total confirmation?  Either way...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ^{([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])} 17:23, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

::8)  "Ignoring does not work"...what does that mean?  Shane disappeared for a few days, people were asking if he was still even here or not...how does this reflect poorly on April or anyone?

* Blocked them on GTalk.

* Joe did not agree with the delete, but he thought the use of it was misused, as april did with a few pages with {{tl|Character Data}}

**...because we only have rudimentary Spanish and German versions, and several users here don't speak those or English as a native language?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]]^{([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])} 17:25, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

***Did you even see where I was born when I first joined? I don't have access to my old user page because I requedted it deleted because of [[Wikipedia:SSBI]] problems, but it stated I was born in NY. And that is discrimination. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ^{([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])} 17:28, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

::13)  Again, Shane never made it clear when he was done, I have already some time ago replied to the discussion on that page, agreeing with April and asking Shane to stop asking petulant.  Frak, every single time something's wrong "The Administrators are ganging up on me".  Sometimes people are just wrong.  Sometimes I'm wrong.  Does this mean the Administrators shouldn't correct me?  Regardless April wasn't acting as an administrator but a user.  ****"NO one comments on templates", no because "they agree", but because for many templates Shane rushes them and finishes them before people can see how they function or if they're worth keeping.  And when we said we didn't like something, such as the locations template, he overeacted.   

::14)  Finally, '''Shane never implemented the Featured Article system after creating it, and didn't make an announcement to start using it or that it was done:  I had to kick start it'''.  Check the history tags:  last week of May I realized "The Featured Article and Picture sections aren't being used at all, and the Portals are NOT being regularly updated.  I then went around trying to actually START the process of nominating these:  Shane made a shiny looking template, with many rules and policies written on its implementation, but ultimately didn't put it to use after "finishing" it.  So I tried to just nominate "Galactica (RDM)" as a featured article, but it turns out that the "Featured Article" *process*, not just a code template, obviously wasn't ''finished'' as after I made the simple request for "Galactica" Shane and April got into a raging arguement about it's implementation.  I'm not taking sides too much on that one (though I think I agreed to April, with caveats).  Either way, the "Featured Article" project was not one of Shane's high points, but something we had to kick-start into actually USING after he wrote more code and templates and policies.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ^{([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])} 16:42, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

===Joe's proposal ===

It is sad that this has to happen, but there is a definite problem here that doesn't seem to have a neat solution to it. I'm not going to lie when I say that the situation is messy. I'm not going to reply point-by-point to either April's or Shane's bulletpoints, as that wouldn't be utterly beneficial to the community. For some time now, I have attempted to moderate and deal with the issues between Shane and April; I try not to choose a side. (If there is a side I am on, it is that of ''consensus'' and ''compromise''.) As I have indicated before, and as many of you have seen here, Shane and April represent a dichotomy: one is quick to action without full consideration of the potential consequences of said actions, the other inquires as to why the changes are necessary and how they will benefit "the big picture".  

 

Thus far, I've failed in getting Shane to understand this. And I'll be quite honest, I don't know how exactly this situation should be handled. So this RFC is necessary, because it gives the community a chance to voice in on how to address the issue. I do have an idea, but I'll get to that further on.

 

After reviewing the months of activities, contributions and issues between the two, I believe that April has demonstrated restraint and emotional control. (If they've blown up, it's been in private -- before now.) Anyone without April's respectible patience would have said "fuck this, I have better things to do" long before this point. And, really, April ''does'' have better things that they could be doing. And so does Shane. And so do I. And so do we all.

 

 

 

 

First, there is the issue of snapping back at people and using the RFCs in an inappropriate way, as a form of personal attack. RFCs are not to be used on people you don't like personally, or that you have personal problems with. These things should be handled off-wiki. Secondly, the issue is that there needs to be a cooldown period for Shane, because of his history of reacting without thinking the issue through. Despite my understanding that this reactionary response didn't just appear out of nowhere, this still needs to be addressed. Therefore, I propose that Shane will not edit the wiki for '''seven days''' after the decision is finalized. I am hoping that this break will be taken voluntarily; however, should it not be, I will place a seven day block on the account.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*If I create a policy, template and it's tagged correctly (i.e. {{tl|Proposed Policy}} and or not implemented) but created here, because the policy is and is like what I am doing and there is no [[technobable]] or a teamplate and in the template itself I explain what it's function is using the <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> along with the examples, and then post it on this "'''Think Tank'''" for comments, is this going to be an infractions?

*Do '''PROJECTS''' count? (i.e. [[BW:NEW]], [[BW:Tem]], [[BW:OC]])

 

 

 

 

 

::Other people's major ideas aren't the issue at present. However, I am going to begin work on the Think Tank and will encourage its use for other members. Right now, this is a plan tailored for this specific situation. Should it grow organically into policy, then that's what shall happen.

::: ''(I'd feel better if this were less well defined, actually. I feel that Shane has demonstrated a pattern where he wants to know exactly where the "line" is, so that he can stand right up against it. When someone points out that his behavior is unaaceptable, he claims he is following the "letter of the law". I'd rather pay more attention to the spirit with which policies were written and are understood, than having to spell everything out to ensure there are no loop holes. This is not a Battlestar Nomic. I'm not trying to set a trap, I just feel that part of this needs to be about learning to judge this kind of thing for himself. In any case, I think an Admin consensus should have final rule over whether a given change or set of changes is "major". --[[User:Day|Day]] ^{([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]])} 11:19, 26 June 2006 (CDT))

:::: You've made a good point here, Day. Therefore, I agree that consensus is necessary to determine what major is and what major looks like. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] ^{[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]} 11:32, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

 

::Again, the think tank isn't Wiki-wide policy. Yet. It is meant to address the issues that were brought up during this RFC.

 

 

 

: This is more or less a risk you have to take. Again, contributing to Battlestar Wiki is not compulsory -- this ultimately a volunteer effort. Anyone at any time can decide that contributing to the Wiki is no longer desirable. Additionally, part of the issue is that "sweeping changes" without debate is detrimental to a Wiki, hence the Think Tank. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] ^{[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]} 11:32, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

 

 

: The fact that you have to ask this is telling. Any idea so large that it needs a project page to organize is ''very'' clearly large enough to warrant mention on the Think Tank. And, I'd say, mention ''before'' creating said project page. The way I understand it, this is not a place to link things you're working on, but a place for you to outline ideas before beginning work. I remember discussing (on Wiki, of course) whether or not to make a S&C page with April for some time before actually making it. That is, in my mind, exactly the way things should work. In actuality, I felt like I might have been rushing things in making the page when I did, so I immediately asked he most prolific editors (at the time Joe was the only Admin and I was new) I could find for input and guidance. --[[User:Day|Day]] ^{([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]])} 23:16, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

 

==== Outside views and commentary on this proposed action ====

 

::A "Major idea" would be something affecting a wiki-wide template, policy, or anything relating to something on our Standards and Conventions page.  Specifically the templates.  I mean if we're figuring out sources and stuff, that's low-level things that can be changed on the fly even though they affect large parts of the wiki.  In short, the answer is obvious:  things like changes to a "Portals" system, a new front page (both water under the bridge, now I guess), and most pertinently, new templates or changes to old ones.  Just based on empirical evidence....I don't think any of us have ever made as "major" changes to templates, in one sitting, as you ever have, and I cannot think of any day to day stuff that would actually require this:  the few times in the past everyone else has changed something massive, we brought it up on standards and conventions or whatnot.  In short, no, this is not a policy ''per se'', you're a special case.  Joe could simply snap, ban you for a week and tell you to hush up, but instead is trying to customize this situation and compromise and give you room to continue to work.  ---"affects my style", what?  This is not a policy, only administrators are voting, and I'm just putting in my two cents.  But frankly it doesn't need to be a Policy, you're really the only person we're holding this out for.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ^{([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])} 01:11, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

 

::From an outside view, I think that Joe's proposal is fair. What is needed right now is a break for everyone. It would show me a lot if Shane voluntarily takes a week off. I think that the Think Tank idea is great and is generally needed, NOT just for Shane. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 08:04, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

 

 

Has anyone ever watch [[Wikipedia:Pleasantville (film)|Pleasantville]]? I feel like this is happening  to me and a few other people who decided. Bud fights the rules because he don't beleive in them. This  lands him jail. The point is that you guys have treated me not as an equal because I am not an admin or see things differenlty from you does that mean. Put yourself in my shoes. How do you think I feel? Would you want to be the one alone to see your point? You debate. None of April's "points" indicate bad debating? Just for "judgement" of trying to improve the wiki I get critized and insulted. Take stuff at face value. Don't see it as harm otherwise you start to see, like the Mayor stared doing because you just don't know what it is or what to make of it yet. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ^{([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])} 19:48, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

 

*Per Shane's request, I have restored my initial RFC from some months ago [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/Shane (old)|here]]. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:46, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

**Following that, a one-month probationary period during which that block may be reinstated with the consensus of a majority of administrators. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 12:46, 25 June 2006 (CDT)

::All I seen is "ban". I don't see any suggestions. I am posting my respones to what people write to defend myself. I have even '''tried''' in the past few contribs to be "Correct". Me and April were battleing over "[[BW:CITE]]" on one of the articles. A "ban" does not change me nor options. You are saying I want you to do it more "auguementive" that most people. I am not the one who posted something ont he SciFi boards making fun of someone. At least I say it outloud. And reposting it on BSG is not an excuess. You see where my anger comes at? You have never appologized EVEN to me. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ^{([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])} 17:14, 25 June 2006 (CDT)