Talk:Cylons (RDM)/Archive 1

Doesn't the "twelve models of Cylons" that Six referred to mean only twelve humanoid models, not metal kinds as well?

If she really meant "twelve kinds of Cylons altogether" then you'd have to include Old/New Raiders, Recon Drones, and Old/New basestars - leaving only one more type of Cylon to be discovered. And with RDM saying that "two new Cylons will be revealed this [second] season," that's obviously not the case. Kuralyov 19:39, 15 Apr 2005 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be that there are 12 models of Humano-Cylon. Although I do understand the confusion, particularly in light of the note that Adama read at the end of the Mini-Series. -- Joe Beaudoin 22:57, 15 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Zarek Rocks' Edits

Zarek Rocks added the following on August 8th:

In the reimagined series, Cylons are a creation of man, used primarily for dangerous work. However, they were eventually intended to be used by humans for all production continuing the colonial's Golden Age. The Cylons revolted against their masters, eventually killing off all but approximately 50,000 humans. Their creation for enslavement is likely their reasoning for choosing the name for their species. Cyone is a character from Greek mythology that was raped by her father and then sacrificed him on an altar in a nearby temple. The obvious parallels to the human-cylon relationship, the Colonial's religion being closely similar to the Greek Gods, and the similarity in the spelling: cylon cyone are all conclusive evidence of the origin of the name cylon.

I have a number of concerns:

1. What is this Golden Age to which you refer?
2. The name Cylon comes from the original series, in which the Cylons are the robotic creations of a race of malevolent lizard-men. Allthough the Cyone/Cylon naming coincidence is a tempting avenue of thought, it would probably be better to note it as an odd coincidence than claim it as "conclusive evidence" for a name which antedates this version of Cylon history by over twenty-five years.
3. I can't find more than a one-sentence reference to a character from greek mythology by the name of "Cyone" anywhere online. Do you have a reference to the legend that you could point us at for discussion?

Please leave the previous content intact when you make future additions unless you find it impertinent, redundant or factually innacurate.

--Peter Farago 00:21, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

I apologize for my lack of background for my articles. I must confess to being much more concerned with the re-imagined BSG and so therefore have been using it as a reference point for my articles. TOS and the re-imagined series have been so different that you almost can't connect the two because of the many differences. Everyone will agree that the characters are completely different, as has the background info. The Golden Age I refer to takes place before the Cylon War. The article I used for this was found on this site, History of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol. I realize this is not canon, but it seems close enough to be considered factual. Besides, the two series are so different one could not find a 100% bulletproof article anyways, unless it referred to a tiny specific (and probably therefore uninteresting) piece of information anyways. The one sentence online you refer to about Cyone, I assume is on the same website I found it, http://www.pantheon.org/. This is a reliable website that is valid to cite in reference to Greek mythology; the information on it is reliable and in depth enough to be quoted. Please let me know if you have any questions, as I realize all of your previous ones were completely valid.

I completely agree about the re-imagined series having very little to do with (and being far superior to) the original, but about the only thing that is clearly sourced from the original are the various character and technology names. I find the Encyclopedia Mythica entry to be a bit lacking to be worth noting here, but if you feel compelled it would be perfectly fine to note the coincidence in a "Notes" section

P.S., to sign your comments with your name and a time stamp, use this string: --~~~~. --Peter Farago 18:37, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Thanks, and I agree the Re-imagined series is far superior. SHould we restore my edits to the article or shall we leave as is? --Zareck Rocks 18:49, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)--

I don't personally feel it's worthwhile, but as I said above, there would be nothing wrong with pointing out the coincidence along with a citation. --Peter Farago 19:05, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)

The Late Unpleasantness

I'll begin. Since philwelch admits that the various Cylon craft may not count as Cylon models, it seems that the main point of controversy is whether to count the two models of Cylon Centurion. Would it be acceptable to both of you to make a note concerning the ambiguity of both the "twelve models of cylon" note and Six's assertion that "those models [the chrome toasters] still have their uses", and provide separate counts depending on which assumptions are made?

After this sticking point has been resolved, I recommend restoring the non-controversial edits lost in Ricimer's recent revert. --Peter Farago 11:49, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

I don't count the earlier model because it's a 40 year old model and there's no evidence that it exists anymore. Anyway, I've made a compromise edit. Philwelch 13:10, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

Philwelch's disclaimer in the "Twelve Models" section seems like a balanced reading to me, based on the available information. Ricimer, do you still object to it? --Peter Farago 14:05, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

Philwelch I must commend you on your recent excellent compromise edit. The main point of contention I had is that sometimes on messageboards you see people that say that "there are 12 Cylons, so counting centurions there must be 11 "human-looking" Cylons. However, I think there are 12 models of humanoid Cylon, as well as the Centurion model. I don't know if Raiders, etc. count as a "model" or not, unless they say that in a later episode. I thought it ambiguous as to how "organic" they are; i.e. their internal muscles, ligaments, nerves were more obviously synthetic; they looked like artificial skin and muscle like you'd use on burn victims. I mean, they looked more obviously silicon-based on not vat-grown; the line were "organic" and "machine" blurs (if we consider animals to be just a complex bio-chemical machine). Anyway, I really like the current edit. ---Ricimer. 1 Sept, 2005

That's called "limited special effects", I think. Philwelch 20:18, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

Something to take note. When Boomer recently told Gaius Baltar that there were 8 more cylons within the fleet, that added up to the 12 stated long ago by Number 6. The fleet has seen Boomer, Number 6 (as Godfrey), Darol, and Leoben Conoy. They hadn't seen the 8 other models (who logically would only have 1 of each in the fleet). We've discussed D'anna Biers and we know about Simon both will show up. In the recent show, Baltar was talking to Six about other cylons aboard- that they could be anywhere. My tv was a bit dark but I swear I saw Simon pass by in military khakis when he said that. As for Ellen Tigh, look at the show where Baltar says "She's green!" when he checks her out in the test. If you zoom into the computer, it does show green. Then again, everybody was there to watch his testing so he may have covered it up. --QuintusCinna

Baltar altered the program when he tested Ellen. Anyway, you're assuming (a) that Boomer was right (b) There's only 1 of each (c) Godfrey isn't there. The question was "how many Cylons are left in the fleet?" and the answer was "eight". Godfrey isn't known to be a Cylon quite yet and may be in hiding. Also, why can't there be Cylon "identical twins" or Cylon doppelgangers? And how do we know Boomer is a reliable source? You're making a lot of assumptions—assumptions that I think can be abandoned just as easily if not more easily than the assumption that there are only twelve Cylon models. Philwelch 20:18, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

By the way, Peter's more recent edits to the article pretty much turned my exposition of the issue into an argument for his side. I went ahead and fixed it, and right now it's just an examination of all the related assumptions one could make regarding this issue and how they apply. Philwelch 20:51, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

I don't really have a "side", Phil, and frankly if you and Ricimer agree on your previous version, I don't mind if you revert it. I think the current exposition here is rather monstrous. --Peter Farago 21:28, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

It seemed a little biased to me, and removed a bunch of stuff that didn't need to be. Philwelch 21:33, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

I'll just say I'd like to think that afer Adama read the note, he had a similar debate: 12 Human models, or 12 all together. Life imitates Art. Sorta

Re-imagined Series definition: Battlestar Group (TRS: "Water"). It also doubles as an acronym for the television series itself.