https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=SSH&feedformat=atomBattlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T21:40:42ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.40.1https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sine_Qua_Non/Archive_1&diff=162978Talk:Sine Qua Non/Archive 12008-06-11T16:45:19Z<p>SSH: /* Is Tigh definately the father? */ new section</p>
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== No promo pics ==<br />
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As far as I can tell, no promo pics for this episode were released?? -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
: I suspect that there's a reason for this... and it may relate {{spoilli|to Mary McDonnell}}. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 02:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Promo spoilers ==<br />
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{{spoilli|Romo Lampkin appears towards the end of the trailer; could this be the returning "favourite character"?}} (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dbjPNG_9Xo) --[[User:Kosh|Kosh]] 04:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Lock? ==<br />
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Considering on this side of the Atlantic we get the episode 3 days before the US does, what is the procedure going to be for locking this article (and the rest of 4.0)? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 21:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Lock it a day before the UK airing I guess. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::And keep it locked for 4 days? That would be a very long time to have an article locked. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 22:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Mhh, yeah, that is a problem. We could unlock it until the US airing and then lock it again. So there are 2-3 days to edit it. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 22:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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I feel that it'll be determined on a case-by-case basis... If the article is sufficiently developed by Friday, we may just leave it unlocked and see how the server copes. If not, then we lock on Friday and Saturday (till noon-ish). Sound good? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
: I don't see any real need to lock this article on Friday, since it's pretty fleshed out. If it becomes a performance issue, then, we'll lock it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 05:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Surviour Count ==<br />
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How are we qualifiying the count as going up?<br />
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Caprica Six has an unborn baby, which is obviously debatable in terms of counting as a surviour because the baby's parents are both Cylons and it isn't even born, but I digress as that isn't my point.<br />
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Either way, a Raptor poliot has been ''confirmed'' dead and a Viper pilot has been persumed dead, which at worst cancels the unborn baby in terms of surviours.<br />
--[[User:Syferus|Syferus]] 19:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Children are born within the Fleet. There are a couple of cases where the count just goes up or deaths are offset. In fact it probably doesn't happen often enough. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::"In universe" the teaser ends only a few hours after [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]] does, so its likely that the "battle of the resurrection hub" hadn't concluded by that point. It's interesting to note they didn't subtract all the abductees though. My guess is that the [[The Hub]] will be chronologically concurrent with Sine Qua Non, making our survivor count next week a little confusing. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 12:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Lance the Cat is not dead ==<br />
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When Romo discovers Lee Adama is the only candidate for the President he is talking to his cat, Lance. He leaves to go confront Lee and he says to the cat, "Lance, defense rests. Come on." In the next scene he claiming Lance was dead for weeks. <br />
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If this is true it fits Romo's pattern of manipulation. He used the same pattern during the trial of Balter (the use of the cane). The best explanation is that Romo is using the cat to manipulate Lee.<br />
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: The cat is dead, Jim. Lee sees the body of it in the duffel bag. Also, there are several indicators to all of this in the episode; the fact that no one else but Romo sees the pet, Lee almost tripping over an overturned, empty dish... not to mention Lampkin's general depression and ennui. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 03:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
: This confused me too, but go back and look at those scenes. One of the first scenes, the cat is sitting next to Romo on the bed, and it when it cuts away from Romo the cat is gone. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 11:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Fundamental difference? ==<br />
There is another possible explanation for Caprica-Six's pregnancy, maybe the [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfLove love theory] is correct, perhaps Cylon have some sort of biological failsafe to prevent them from breeding in the wrong circumstances. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Incorrect quote ==<br />
In re "Lampkin: Quandary is, one doesn't generally get the chance to wield political power without the ambition to actively seek it. That same ambition often compromises the unselfish motives that began the quest. In other words, in a battle of it versus ego, that ego rarely wins."<br />
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I'm pretty sure it was "ID versus ego." That's how I heard it and it makes alot more sense. Lampkin was talking about repressed desiers ( ID ) beating out our unselfish motives (ego). I didn't record the show, however, so someone who can check may want to edit this. {{unsigned|Glaucon}}<br />
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: Agreed. It's "id vs. ego". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 05:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== If / when ==<br />
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''"What exactly happened to the rebel baseship and the [[Resurrection Hub]]? Did the rebels and Colonials escape '''when/if''' their baseship was destroyed?"''<br />
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Seems its difficult to decide if it is conclusive that the rebel basestar was destroyed or not. IMO I'd go for "if", because although it looks likely, it's not certain (Adama still has hope for one). They'd probably have to have destroyed one of Cavil's basestars if they were to eliminate the Hub. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 17:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, now that you say it, that seems to be correct. Sorry. To me it initially seemed like the basestar is destroyed for sure. Which is what Tigh thinks. But Adama believes that they survived. So there is some uncertainty. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== More breaks than acts? ==<br />
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Is it my imagination, or did SkyOne throw in more commercial breaks than there are acts in this episode? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:It was hard for me to follow, particularly since the central Indiana area was dodging severe thunderstorms and tornadoes during the first broadcast, which interrupted my cable recordings and totally munged up my DVR. Ssssss... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
: Well, I'll see if I can't catch a repeat, unless someone beats me to it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Boomer/Athena's song (hum?) ==<br />
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Just wanted to let you guys know that the song Boomer/Athena both hum is a traditional Korean children's song. The title would roughly translate to "The Stream Deep in the Forest." I guess Grace Park picked the song, since she's Korean.<br />
[[User:Icenerve|Icenerve]] 17:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)icenerve<br />
:As noted at [[Flesh and Bone#Notes]] (at the very end), though the title is given a bit different there. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Where Romo confronted Lee ==<br />
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The article assumes that Romo held Lee at gunpoint in Colonial One. While it was clearly the Colonial One set, the way it was lit, shot, and the added industrial details made it seem to me that it was a redress that was supposed to be Romo's ship. -- [[User:David cgc|David cgc]] 16:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Could be either. Lampkin is alone and then goes off to see Adama. But then he runs into Adama in the hallway. That could either mean that Adama simultaneously goes to see Lampkin (the reason for which isn't explained), or that the two run into each other on ''Colonial One''. It's not like the ship is all plush and luxury. There are cargo areas in the bowels of the ships for example. Anyways, I removed, since it's a bit unclear, but not vital information -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Guys, wow... It's ''Colonial One'', since Romo just came from deliberations with the Quorum, which meets on ''Colonial One''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Erm, it doesn't say that he comes from a Quorum meeting. "We found our candidate. One the Quorum won't hesitate to approve". That doesn't sound like he actually talked to them yet. One might also say that he is just leaving his quarters and runs into Adama outside. I consider it be ''Colonial One'' as well, but I can see why people can be confused about it. But as said, it doesn't really matter. Or could Lampkin actually live somewhere on ''Colonial One''? Ah..I don't really care :p -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::: I suppose I can see where other people are coming from. Anyway, hopefully the podcast might clear that up, once one's released. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::My assumption (and it is only that) from Romo saying Laura gave him the room was that Romo's new room is on Colonial One. It's a big ship that does house some civilians on a permanent basis, and it kinda fits. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::That'd make sense. I'm sure the person or persons who had that room before him weren't too pleased to give up such a spacious piece of real estate. :P -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Battlestar leaving the fleet undefended ==<br />
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The wiki states:<br />
<blockquote><br />
Despite the fact that Galactica has left the Fleet before to engage combat, this episode marks the first time that the civilian Fleet is intentionally left without any defense. The only other time the Fleet was left without military aid was after Boomer's assassination attempt of William Adama, when Galactica accidentally jumped to different coordinates than the rest of the Fleet (Scattered).</blockquote><br />
Actually the Pegasus left the (residual) fleet undefended during the Battle of New Caprica. I added a note to this effect to the wiki, but someone edited it out. <small>—The preceding '''[[BW:SIGN|unsigned]]''' comment was added by [[User:Gmusser|Gmusser]] ([[User talk:Gmusser|talk]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Gmusser|contribs]]).</small><br />
:''Pegasus'' left its entire air wing behind to guard the residual fleet, hence the need for suicidal tactics at the Battle of New Caprica. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Exactly the reason why I removed it. At least I think it was me :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
Ah, I see your point. Thanks for setting me straight. Why don't you flesh out this part of the discusson?--[[User:Gmusser|Gmusser]] 15:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Is Tigh definately the father? ==<br />
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Tigh and Adama assume that Tigh is the father, but is that necessarily so? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 16:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Archive4&diff=119840Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive42007-04-27T07:16:02Z<p>SSH: /* Serpents Two and Ten */</p>
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<div>:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]<br />
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:''For discussions prior to March 13, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=113030 see this revision.]<br />
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{{talk page warning}}<br />
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==Archived Page==<br />
I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Romo Lampkin's entry ==<br />
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I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Statement on Death ==<br />
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I have changed the following line:<br />
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<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote><br />
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The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==<br />
I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Kara Thrace==<br />
According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Major Revision Needed==<br />
I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:<br />
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.<br />
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.<br />
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==<br />
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OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.<br />
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But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)<br />
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Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==<br />
While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.<br />
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Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:<br />
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*Boomer herself<br />
*[[D'Anna Biers]]<br />
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol<br />
*[[Saul Tigh]]<br />
*[[Tory Foster]]<br />
*[[Galen Tyrol]]<br />
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You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.<br />
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As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== article reboot ==<br />
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Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.<br />
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This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.<br />
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I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")<br />
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(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==<br />
<br />
Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) <br />
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Laura Roslin ==<br />
<br />
As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}<br />
: This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::: RDM saying he knows who the final Cylon is happened at roughly the same time as him saying Adama and Roslin weren't Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: I have not listened to the whole podcast, but I heard part where he said he ruled out Roslin and Adama, and that was referring to who the 4 revealed Cylons would be, not about who the 5th one is. Did he say it again at a later point in the podcast? If not, I count this as strong evidence against Adama and Roslin but not an absolute rule-out. He likes to equivocate on these things, remember. It could very well be that he said that Roslin would not make sense (as one of the 4) because she's already planned as the 5th, for example.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::From the Sci Fi forums:<br />
::::QUOTE<br />
:::::Do you already know who the fifth cylon of the final five is? If so, '''have you already left us some clues'''?<br />
::::Yes and '''yes'''.<br />
::::Ron<br />
:::So not only does RDM already know, he also left clues in Season 3. This was posted March 26 2007 (the day after the finale aired). [http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/04/04/bsg-podcast-recap-battlestar-galactica-frak-party-qanda/ On TV Squad] we have:<br />
::::Posted Apr 4th 2007 3:49PM by Keith McDuffee<br />
::::(...)<br />
::::While we await Ron Moore's commentary podcast for Battlestar's season finale, we were treated '''yesterday''' to a Q&A podcast between Moore, his wife and several fans at a viewing party in Berkley, CA.<br />
:::So the frak party podcast was released on April 3rd (one week after the finale), and that's the podcast in which he says (paraphrasing) "there were two people we didn't want to make Cylons: Roslin and Adama". He also says this when discussing his choices for the Fantastic Four. I think that pretty much rules out Roslin and Adama as Cylons, although if you're still not satisfied yet, you can of course always [[BW:OC|ask Brad]] to be sure. <br />
--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:49, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::His words are "We didn't want Eddie, that would rob something from the show, didn't want Mary." I will need to go back and transcribe the surrounding dialogue, because as I said, he likes to equivocate about surprises. (He says he never lied about Starbuck, only equivocated.) I just want all the folks who were sure beyond a doubt that Tigh was no Cylon to be careful when you think you're sure!--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::::This exactly what I was getting at. Revealing Roslin as a cylon at that point would take something from the series, but having the revelation late in the possibly-final series would not... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:26, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::::I'm working on transcribing the Q&A podcast, which I hope to complete over the course of next week. By then we'll have RDM's literal words and the context black on white (or white on black actually).--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 06:01, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Serpents Two and Ten ==<br />
<br />
Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Nah, 2 and 10 means 2+10, 12. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:57, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Are you sure that's all it means? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The analysis for the episode is [[The Hand of God (RDM)|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I've read it and it doesn't really answer my question --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:"Serpents Two and Ten" could refer either to the twelve serpents Roslin saw, or to the twelve Vipers in Strike Force Two attacking the Cylon base in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Those are (IMO) the most likely explanations. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 06:00, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:It's "serpents ''numbering'' two and ten" if that helps. Thats just how you say numbers in olde-prophecy language really... [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:07, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I don't doubt that ''sometimes'' it means twelve, I was just wondering if it had a double meaning.</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:SSH&diff=119810User:SSH2007-04-26T10:56:12Z<p>SSH: </p>
<hr />
<div>UK BG fan!<br />
<br />
[[Category:Wikipedians_%28UK%29]]</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Archive4&diff=119808Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive42007-04-26T10:51:16Z<p>SSH: /* Serpents Two and Ten */</p>
<hr />
<div>:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
:''For discussions prior to March 13, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=113030 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
{{talk page warning}}<br />
<br />
==Archived Page==<br />
I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Romo Lampkin's entry ==<br />
<br />
I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Statement on Death ==<br />
<br />
I have changed the following line:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote><br />
<br />
The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==<br />
I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Kara Thrace==<br />
According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Major Revision Needed==<br />
I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:<br />
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.<br />
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.<br />
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==<br />
<br />
OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.<br />
<br />
But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)<br />
<br />
Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==<br />
While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.<br />
<br />
Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:<br />
<br />
*Boomer herself<br />
*[[D'Anna Biers]]<br />
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol<br />
*[[Saul Tigh]]<br />
*[[Tory Foster]]<br />
*[[Galen Tyrol]]<br />
<br />
You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.<br />
<br />
As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== article reboot ==<br />
<br />
Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.<br />
<br />
This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.<br />
<br />
I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")<br />
<br />
(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==<br />
<br />
Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) <br />
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Laura Roslin ==<br />
<br />
As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}<br />
: This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::: RDM saying he knows who the final Cylon is happened at roughly the same time as him saying Adama and Roslin weren't Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: I have not listened to the whole podcast, but I heard part where he said he ruled out Roslin and Adama, and that was referring to who the 4 revealed Cylons would be, not about who the 5th one is. Did he say it again at a later point in the podcast? If not, I count this as strong evidence against Adama and Roslin but not an absolute rule-out. He likes to equivocate on these things, remember. It could very well be that he said that Roslin would not make sense (as one of the 4) because she's already planned as the 5th, for example.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::From the Sci Fi forums:<br />
::::QUOTE<br />
:::::Do you already know who the fifth cylon of the final five is? If so, '''have you already left us some clues'''?<br />
::::Yes and '''yes'''.<br />
::::Ron<br />
:::So not only does RDM already know, he also left clues in Season 3. This was posted March 26 2007 (the day after the finale aired). [http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/04/04/bsg-podcast-recap-battlestar-galactica-frak-party-qanda/ On TV Squad] we have:<br />
::::Posted Apr 4th 2007 3:49PM by Keith McDuffee<br />
::::(...)<br />
::::While we await Ron Moore's commentary podcast for Battlestar's season finale, we were treated '''yesterday''' to a Q&A podcast between Moore, his wife and several fans at a viewing party in Berkley, CA.<br />
:::So the frak party podcast was released on April 3rd (one week after the finale), and that's the podcast in which he says (paraphrasing) "there were two people we didn't want to make Cylons: Roslin and Adama". He also says this when discussing his choices for the Fantastic Four. I think that pretty much rules out Roslin and Adama as Cylons, although if you're still not satisfied yet, you can of course always [[BW:OC|ask Brad]] to be sure. <br />
--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:49, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::His words are "We didn't want Eddie, that would rob something from the show, didn't want Mary." I will need to go back and transcribe the surrounding dialogue, because as I said, he likes to equivocate about surprises. (He says he never lied about Starbuck, only equivocated.) I just want all the folks who were sure beyond a doubt that Tigh was no Cylon to be careful when you think you're sure!--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::::This exactly what I was getting at. Revealing Roslin as a cylon at that point would take something from the series, but having the revelation late in the possibly-final series would not... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:26, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Serpents Two and Ten ==<br />
<br />
Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Nah, 2 and 10 means 2+10, 12. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:57, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Are you sure that's all it means? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The analysis for the episode is [[The Hand of God (RDM)|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I've read it and it doesn't really answer my question --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:SSH&diff=119805User:SSH2007-04-26T09:33:19Z<p>SSH: New page: UK BG fan!</p>
<hr />
<div>UK BG fan!</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques&diff=119804Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques2007-04-26T09:32:57Z<p>SSH: /* Roslin and the Admiral */ sign</p>
<hr />
<div>{{project|Official Communique's|image=BSG WIKI Official CrewCast.png|shortcut=BW:OC}}<br />
<br />
Members of '''''Battlestar Wiki''''': This page is to coordinate all questions to any official members of the cast or crew of "[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]." Please sign your question after you are done. The "summary" of the question should be be first, if any, and then the questions, in short form, should be placed at the bottom. This is to not confuse people and to keep the questions distinctive.<br />
<br />
Cast/Crew: These are questions we are seeking answers to. If you have the time, please answer them as best you can. We will move these questions/answers to the correct page once they have been done. You can also check out ''[[:md:Category:Seeking Official Information|Category:Seeking Official Information]]'' for larger items - particularly pictures.<br />
<br />
All questions which have been previously answered can be found on the archive pages. Questions get moved to the archives once items and questions stemming from the issue have stopped.<br />
<br />
<br />
<div align="center"><br />
{| class="toc plainlinks" summary="Notice" <br />
|-<br />
| [[Image:BSG WIKI Caution.png]]<br />
| [[Bradley Thompson]] is very busy. It might be a while before he answers questions. <br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
{{ArchiveTOC}}<br />
<br />
{{Newsection link}}<br />
<br />
__TOC__<br />
<br />
== Question on a recurring extra ==<br />
<br />
In early Season One, there was a large Asian pilot with tattoos that appeared at a card game. As far as I remember, he disappeared after that. Then he reappeared during the partying scenes in Scar. And now he's back in a major way in Season Three, appearing in most scenes involving lots of pilots. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the man, and was wondering if there's any actual information on him. Does he have a name? And will he ever get a line? Thanks for your time. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 13:51, 6 December 2006 (CST)<br />
:Good question. Lots of pictures can be found in [http://z15.invisionfree.com/Galactica_B_S/index.php?showtopic=431 this Galactica BS thread].--[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 18:02, 6 December 2006 (CST)<br />
::I created an article about him: [[Tattooed pilot]]. When (if) Brad gives us his actual name, we can move it.[[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 06:09, 22 December 2006 (CST)<br />
:::He's getting the reputation of being BSG's counterpart to [[w:Morn|Morn from ''Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'']]. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:38, 5 January 2007 (CST)<br />
::::Now we know the name of the extra: [[Leo Li Chiang]]. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 20:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)<br />
:::::Maybe its like a running joke, that he's been in it since the beginning but still doesnt have a name? :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 08:47, 2 March 2007 (CST)<br />
<br />
::::::If we give him a name, you won't have the fun of trying to guess what it is. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 19:01, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::But... But... if he doesn't have a name then there's nothing to guess! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:22, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Props to David Weddle and Bradley Thompson ==<br />
<br />
This last episode, "[[Maelstrom]]" is some of the best storytelling I have ever seen! Give your selfs a pay-rasie and a '''high-five'''! [[Cylon Shooter]]s on me. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:24, 5 March 2007 (CST)<br />
:A good episode indeed, although it can never beat the immortal "[[Rapture]]" ;) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br />
<br />
::Thanks for liking them both! - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:59, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::You guys do downright amazing work. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Harvey Frand ==<br />
<br />
What is this guy's job exactly? He doesn't seem to be directly involved in the creative side of the show. Is he more of an administrative producer? Making sure the logistics work, sets are built, actors hired, etc. I'm not saying that that's not important, just curious :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:20, 13 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Without Harvey Frand, Galactica would not be nearly as spectacular as it is. He keeps everything on time and on budget, makes sure the scripts can be done with the resources available, finds the most efficient way to allot those resources -- and when something is necessary to make the story work -- yet is financially impossible to do, he finds a way. Harvey is the man who literally makes the show happen in the real world, which calls for tremendous creativity and risk-taking. He's the guy on Maelstrom who pointed out that we had an eight page day to shoot on location in Socrata's apartment -- and a location day can make at best six pages. It was impossible to do, even with overtime, given what we'd accomplished in seasons previous. <br />
<br />
::As David Weddle was trying to cut those scenes down to something we could shoot, he realized that doing so would gut their emotional impact. He brought this to the attention of Michael Nankin, who agreed - we needed all eight pages. We went to Harvey with the problem and swore that everything would go right, that the guest star would know her lines, that Michael could cut some corners on coverage to be able to make the day. If anything fell apart (camera failure, safety issue, botched lines... anything like that and we'd be hosed. We couldn't stay late. (You can't keep the trucks on the street after a certain hour in that section of Vancouver or you're busted, fined and can never shoot there again.) Not only that, but the rest of the schedule would be thrown out of whack and it wouldn't just be these critical scenes that would be unfinished... would there be budget left to do the spectacular end of the season? Or even the humungous dogfight at the end of Maelstrom? Harvey had a tough call to make.<br />
<br />
::Harvey rolled the hard six. And Dorothy had her lines down cold. And Katee was perfect. Nothing broke. And we got out of there with less than seconds to spare.<br />
<br />
::That's just one of the calls Harvey has to make every day. He's frakking awesome. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:52, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::Thanks for that detailed explanation. That's sort of what I assumed. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:20, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Billing and Contracts ==<br />
<br />
The Son Also Rises rose some questions about how billing works on Galactica. With the exception of Katee Sackhoff's departure, the main credits have remained constant, while the secondary credits for Guest Stars has been more more fluid. However, there've been some constants. Michael Hogan, Aaron Douglas, and Tahmoh Penikett were always the top dogs of the non-main cast, and, with the exception of the rare episode where one of their characters didn't appear, they always appeared in that order.<br />
<br />
However, things seem to be changing. Ever since Cally became a prominent character in Season Two, Nicki Clyne has been slowly rising in the ranks of the Guest Stars. At first, she was just getting away with supplanting Alessandro Juliano and Kandyse McClure, but now she has actually broken into the top three, as she was credited before Penikett in the last episode.<br />
<br />
I was wondering, what determines billing? I assume it's contractual, as Michael Hogan is always top billed, even in the few episodes he doesn't have any lines. So has Clyne negotiated a new contract that puts her higher in the credits?<br />
<br />
Also, I noticed that Sebastian Spense cracked the Guest Stars in The Son Also Rises. Not to speak ill of Narcho, but why has he gotten up to the front of the episode? Did he get a better contract? What makes someone only worthy of getting their credit at the end of the episode? Is Brody Olmos less able to commit to a contract, and that's why he hasn't cracked the Guest Stars?<br />
<br />
Sorry I've asked so much. Really, I just want to know how people get their names in the secondary credits, and why certain reliable, long time characters are stuck at the end of the episode. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 15:46, 13 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::That's a really good question and I don't have an answer. It is indeed contractual and that's all handled by business affairs, who tend to be a tight-lipped bunch, and rightly so. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:22, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Maelstrom Viper Mark VII==<br />
[[Image:Viper Mk VII Maelstrom.JPG|thumb]]<br />
In the excellent fighter scenes in the episode [[Maelstrom]], Apollo consistantly flies a different version of the Mk VII Viper than we've seen before. I was wondering if some light could be shed on what it was, since the changes were fairly substantial, such as one of the "home-made" Vipers from Pegasus, a modified regular Mk VII, or just a retro-active design change? --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Or is it the Viper Mk VIII? :) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 05:49, 15 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Galactica's ships are in a constant state of change. The arms race with the Cylons and shortage of parts and resources means Tyrol's knuckledraggers are constantly making improvements and jury-rigging around lacks. (At one point there were talks about making tylium tanks out of paper to extend the fighter ranges, but the idea was dropped when paper was declared a strategic material.) - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:19, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::...and when people were eating it during the food shortage ^_^ --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 05:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Intro, survivor count for Crossroads, Part I ==<br />
<br />
The latest episode, "[[Crossroads, Part I]]", did not have an intro movie (time constraints?), nor did it show a survivor count. I personally don't care much about the intro movie (since we get back actual episode content), but there are a lot of die-hard fans here eager to know the survivor count. What was the count for Crossroads, Part I? Is Part II going to have an intro and a survivor count? Have you abolished the intro movie altogether? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:15, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The survivor count was on the board during the trial. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 18:54, 23 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::No, the number of people who escaped New Caprica was on the board. "Crossroads" takes place 2 to 3 months later. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:37, 24 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Number of Season Four episodes ==<br />
<br />
I realize this was only just announced, and you may not know or be able to comment, but there seems to be confusion over what exactly the 22 episode season order entails. Alongside this announcement, there is confirmation of the made for TV movie, which Sci-Fi is describing as "a special two-hour extended episode." The thing that people are unsure of is whether the movie counts toward the 22 episode count. Will the movie count as two episodes, and then Season Four proper will be the standard 20 episode? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 17:39, 22 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Faster-Than-Light Stuff ==<br />
<br />
Hi there. We know that Ron Moore's goal for the show, as stated in his [[Naturalistic science fiction]] essay, was not to use incredulous science for the show, for instance, faster-than-light travel. We have a little debate if that applied to faster-than-light communications. Several instances appeared where Cylon downloading and communications may move faster than light. We understand that "FTL" travel is apparent-FTL through the [[FTL|wormhole theory]], but has there been a change to how writers handle, say, communications between Cylons at long range (like between one basestar to the infected one in "[[Torn]]"). Did Boomer's consciousness go to a Resurrection Ship and then to Caprica, or traveled farther, relayed, or some other process? If you like, you can see the extended debate in the [[Talk:Faster-than-light communication]] article to note our confusion. If true-FTL does not exist anywhere in the Re-imagined universe, we'll just tack it up to a continuity error that, I feel at least, is for cinematic purposes so a story doesn't get all overly technical or complicated. Thanks. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:07, 23 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Let me ask me more precise question: how do the Cylons manage to appear at the Fleet's previous position less than 12 hours after it jumped away? The Fleet must be making multi-lightyear jumps, since their destination (the Ionian nebula) is thousands of lightyears away. Does the radiation signature from the ''[[Daru Mozu]]'' travel faster than light? The radiation signature from the [[Cloud 9]] blast did travel at lightspeed. Do the Cylons have some other way of tracking the Fleet? Or is it simply a continuity error? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 03:48, 25 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Note that we can't be sure the Cylons really traced them with the radiation signature. That is only what Six suggested they "might have done." Six might even be lying -- not about the signature's presence, but about how usable it is for tracking -- to cover up the real tracking method. But most of all, the Cylon fleet at Ionia didn't track them there using the radiation signature because the Mining ship was off elsewhere as a decoy. <br />
::Now that said, since an FTL radiation signature seems unlikely, this would imply that if used, the radiation signature somehow allows the Cylons to track where a ship has jumped from its origination point. ie. that somehow the mining ship radiated its target jump coordinates. It's never said, but the colonials clearly believe it is not possible to tell where a ship jumped to, but the only ways to track a jumping ship would be either that, or an FTL transmission from the destination.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:05, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Identity of the Final Five ==<br />
<br />
Out of curosity, how long have you guys known who the final five are? I know Ron Moore's made comments that indicate that these were more recent decisions, but I was just curious at what point did you guys decide on who were going to be Cylons, and what really went into that decision. Thanks! [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 16:55, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Production numbers ==<br />
<br />
There is a question about the actual production numbers behind the series. For instance, there is some information on the internet where the production numbers differ. For instance, some are formatted like ("T2701") -- an alleged production number for "[[Occupation]]" -- while others are formatted as 03001 (or even 301). Just wanted to know what exactly the actual "production number" should look like. Thanks Bradley! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 08:58, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
: I believe that the T27nn numbers are internal Warner Bros. numbers for the Comcast tapes that they made and fed to Comcast. I believe the 030nn numbers correspond to the production office assignments to the episodes, i.e., where 03019 is the production number for 'Crossroads, Part 2'. Thanks for helping in clearing this up.[[User:Vidiot|Vidiot]] 01:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Xeno vs Zeno Fenner (Dirty Hands) ==<br />
<br />
Currently we have him as "[[Xeno Fenner|Xeno]]", but the SciFi website lists him as "Zeno". Do you know which version is correct? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:07, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Cylon numbers ==<br />
<br />
Although we've been flooded with Cylon identities lately (we now know 11 of the 12 models), we still know only four numbers ([[Number Three|Three]], [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six|Six]] and [[Number Eight|Eight]]). Could you enlighten us as to the numbers of the other seven known Cylons? If you can't tell us that, can you at least tell us whether these numbers will be revealed in [[Season 4 (2008)|Season Four]]? It would also be interesting to know if the one remaining Cylon is indeed Number One, as we suspected. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:24, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Centurions and the final five ==<br />
<br />
We already know [[Centurion]]s are hard-coded not to hurt the Significant Seven. Does the same go for the [[final five]]? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:We've seen em shoot at Anders, so I'd say no. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:44, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::They've also shot at Athena, though in neither case have they hit the target Cylon. Also, it hasn't been stated that they are hard-coded to not hurt the Seven (unless ordered, as by Three), only that they aren't sentient enough to rebel against them. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:34, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Alright, rephrase: do the Centurions 'know' the final five? Would they take orders from them? Or are they just as ignorant as the Seven? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:17, 9 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::Well it seems logical that the Seven programmed the Centurions, so I don't think the Centurions would know what the Seven don't. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:11, 9 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::::To be fair that's actually quite the assumption; the Significant Seven don't know who programmed them, so I don't think it's a stretch to consider that they don't know who did the base program of the Centurions either. There's enough to go either way with it, so I think the question given here is a valid one. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 15:54, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::::Actually that's a good point. for some reason I assumed the Seven programmed the rest. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:44, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Adama/Tigh Meeting==<br />
Hello, Mr. Thompson. Given the recent revelations about Tigh a lot of people have become interested on when he met Adama, but when we look back we have 2 conflicting sources. So I was wondering if you could maybe tell us which is considered to be the real one? Without revealing anything of course.<br />
<br />
Now, we saw them meet in the flashbacks in “Scattered”, which are mentioned in the podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Scattered] to be 20 years before the miniseries, and this also seems to fit with how they look and such.<br />
<br />
However, in “Torn” Adama says he has known Tigh for 30 years, and though admittedly it’s now technically 22-23 years after their official meeting, “30” is still a long way. It’s quite possible that Adama was dramatizing for the purpose of connecting to Tigh, but either way it creates doubt.<br />
<br />
So my question was, is the timeline we were originally presented the official one or is it different? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:18, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Spelling of carom and meaning of DRADIS ==<br />
<br />
There has been some [[Talk:Dradis|debate]] recently as to how [[carom]] is spelled. Some say carom, some karam, and some charagm. The subtitles spell it as carom, are they right? How do the scripts spell it? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 02:32, 16 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
And for that matter, do you have consistent meaning of "DRADIS"? We currently have "Direction, RAnge and DIStance" which fits with recon photography, but is somewhat redundant. Someone suggested "Direction, Right Ascension and DISstance" which would fit as well. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:46, 16 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Roslin and the Admiral ==<br />
<br />
Following on from the discussion at [[Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation]]... in the frak party podcast, RDM said that he decided against Mary and Edward being in the four revealed Cylons because it would take something away from the series. Does this mean that unequivocally the Admiral and Roslin are not the final Cylon? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:32, 26 April 2007 (CDT)</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques&diff=119803Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques2007-04-26T09:32:27Z<p>SSH: Roslin and the Admiral</p>
<hr />
<div>{{project|Official Communique's|image=BSG WIKI Official CrewCast.png|shortcut=BW:OC}}<br />
<br />
Members of '''''Battlestar Wiki''''': This page is to coordinate all questions to any official members of the cast or crew of "[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]." Please sign your question after you are done. The "summary" of the question should be be first, if any, and then the questions, in short form, should be placed at the bottom. This is to not confuse people and to keep the questions distinctive.<br />
<br />
Cast/Crew: These are questions we are seeking answers to. If you have the time, please answer them as best you can. We will move these questions/answers to the correct page once they have been done. You can also check out ''[[:md:Category:Seeking Official Information|Category:Seeking Official Information]]'' for larger items - particularly pictures.<br />
<br />
All questions which have been previously answered can be found on the archive pages. Questions get moved to the archives once items and questions stemming from the issue have stopped.<br />
<br />
<br />
<div align="center"><br />
{| class="toc plainlinks" summary="Notice" <br />
|-<br />
| [[Image:BSG WIKI Caution.png]]<br />
| [[Bradley Thompson]] is very busy. It might be a while before he answers questions. <br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
{{ArchiveTOC}}<br />
<br />
{{Newsection link}}<br />
<br />
__TOC__<br />
<br />
== Question on a recurring extra ==<br />
<br />
In early Season One, there was a large Asian pilot with tattoos that appeared at a card game. As far as I remember, he disappeared after that. Then he reappeared during the partying scenes in Scar. And now he's back in a major way in Season Three, appearing in most scenes involving lots of pilots. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the man, and was wondering if there's any actual information on him. Does he have a name? And will he ever get a line? Thanks for your time. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 13:51, 6 December 2006 (CST)<br />
:Good question. Lots of pictures can be found in [http://z15.invisionfree.com/Galactica_B_S/index.php?showtopic=431 this Galactica BS thread].--[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 18:02, 6 December 2006 (CST)<br />
::I created an article about him: [[Tattooed pilot]]. When (if) Brad gives us his actual name, we can move it.[[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 06:09, 22 December 2006 (CST)<br />
:::He's getting the reputation of being BSG's counterpart to [[w:Morn|Morn from ''Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'']]. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:38, 5 January 2007 (CST)<br />
::::Now we know the name of the extra: [[Leo Li Chiang]]. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 20:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)<br />
:::::Maybe its like a running joke, that he's been in it since the beginning but still doesnt have a name? :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 08:47, 2 March 2007 (CST)<br />
<br />
::::::If we give him a name, you won't have the fun of trying to guess what it is. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 19:01, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::But... But... if he doesn't have a name then there's nothing to guess! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:22, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Props to David Weddle and Bradley Thompson ==<br />
<br />
This last episode, "[[Maelstrom]]" is some of the best storytelling I have ever seen! Give your selfs a pay-rasie and a '''high-five'''! [[Cylon Shooter]]s on me. [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:24, 5 March 2007 (CST)<br />
:A good episode indeed, although it can never beat the immortal "[[Rapture]]" ;) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 6 March 2007 (CST)<br />
<br />
::Thanks for liking them both! - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:59, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::You guys do downright amazing work. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Harvey Frand ==<br />
<br />
What is this guy's job exactly? He doesn't seem to be directly involved in the creative side of the show. Is he more of an administrative producer? Making sure the logistics work, sets are built, actors hired, etc. I'm not saying that that's not important, just curious :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:20, 13 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Without Harvey Frand, Galactica would not be nearly as spectacular as it is. He keeps everything on time and on budget, makes sure the scripts can be done with the resources available, finds the most efficient way to allot those resources -- and when something is necessary to make the story work -- yet is financially impossible to do, he finds a way. Harvey is the man who literally makes the show happen in the real world, which calls for tremendous creativity and risk-taking. He's the guy on Maelstrom who pointed out that we had an eight page day to shoot on location in Socrata's apartment -- and a location day can make at best six pages. It was impossible to do, even with overtime, given what we'd accomplished in seasons previous. <br />
<br />
::As David Weddle was trying to cut those scenes down to something we could shoot, he realized that doing so would gut their emotional impact. He brought this to the attention of Michael Nankin, who agreed - we needed all eight pages. We went to Harvey with the problem and swore that everything would go right, that the guest star would know her lines, that Michael could cut some corners on coverage to be able to make the day. If anything fell apart (camera failure, safety issue, botched lines... anything like that and we'd be hosed. We couldn't stay late. (You can't keep the trucks on the street after a certain hour in that section of Vancouver or you're busted, fined and can never shoot there again.) Not only that, but the rest of the schedule would be thrown out of whack and it wouldn't just be these critical scenes that would be unfinished... would there be budget left to do the spectacular end of the season? Or even the humungous dogfight at the end of Maelstrom? Harvey had a tough call to make.<br />
<br />
::Harvey rolled the hard six. And Dorothy had her lines down cold. And Katee was perfect. Nothing broke. And we got out of there with less than seconds to spare.<br />
<br />
::That's just one of the calls Harvey has to make every day. He's frakking awesome. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:52, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:::Thanks for that detailed explanation. That's sort of what I assumed. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:20, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Billing and Contracts ==<br />
<br />
The Son Also Rises rose some questions about how billing works on Galactica. With the exception of Katee Sackhoff's departure, the main credits have remained constant, while the secondary credits for Guest Stars has been more more fluid. However, there've been some constants. Michael Hogan, Aaron Douglas, and Tahmoh Penikett were always the top dogs of the non-main cast, and, with the exception of the rare episode where one of their characters didn't appear, they always appeared in that order.<br />
<br />
However, things seem to be changing. Ever since Cally became a prominent character in Season Two, Nicki Clyne has been slowly rising in the ranks of the Guest Stars. At first, she was just getting away with supplanting Alessandro Juliano and Kandyse McClure, but now she has actually broken into the top three, as she was credited before Penikett in the last episode.<br />
<br />
I was wondering, what determines billing? I assume it's contractual, as Michael Hogan is always top billed, even in the few episodes he doesn't have any lines. So has Clyne negotiated a new contract that puts her higher in the credits?<br />
<br />
Also, I noticed that Sebastian Spense cracked the Guest Stars in The Son Also Rises. Not to speak ill of Narcho, but why has he gotten up to the front of the episode? Did he get a better contract? What makes someone only worthy of getting their credit at the end of the episode? Is Brody Olmos less able to commit to a contract, and that's why he hasn't cracked the Guest Stars?<br />
<br />
Sorry I've asked so much. Really, I just want to know how people get their names in the secondary credits, and why certain reliable, long time characters are stuck at the end of the episode. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 15:46, 13 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::That's a really good question and I don't have an answer. It is indeed contractual and that's all handled by business affairs, who tend to be a tight-lipped bunch, and rightly so. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:22, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Maelstrom Viper Mark VII==<br />
[[Image:Viper Mk VII Maelstrom.JPG|thumb]]<br />
In the excellent fighter scenes in the episode [[Maelstrom]], Apollo consistantly flies a different version of the Mk VII Viper than we've seen before. I was wondering if some light could be shed on what it was, since the changes were fairly substantial, such as one of the "home-made" Vipers from Pegasus, a modified regular Mk VII, or just a retro-active design change? --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Or is it the Viper Mk VIII? :) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 05:49, 15 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
::Galactica's ships are in a constant state of change. The arms race with the Cylons and shortage of parts and resources means Tyrol's knuckledraggers are constantly making improvements and jury-rigging around lacks. (At one point there were talks about making tylium tanks out of paper to extend the fighter ranges, but the idea was dropped when paper was declared a strategic material.) - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 18:19, 20 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::...and when people were eating it during the food shortage ^_^ --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 05:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Intro, survivor count for Crossroads, Part I ==<br />
<br />
The latest episode, "[[Crossroads, Part I]]", did not have an intro movie (time constraints?), nor did it show a survivor count. I personally don't care much about the intro movie (since we get back actual episode content), but there are a lot of die-hard fans here eager to know the survivor count. What was the count for Crossroads, Part I? Is Part II going to have an intro and a survivor count? Have you abolished the intro movie altogether? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:15, 21 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The survivor count was on the board during the trial. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 18:54, 23 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::No, the number of people who escaped New Caprica was on the board. "Crossroads" takes place 2 to 3 months later. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:37, 24 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Number of Season Four episodes ==<br />
<br />
I realize this was only just announced, and you may not know or be able to comment, but there seems to be confusion over what exactly the 22 episode season order entails. Alongside this announcement, there is confirmation of the made for TV movie, which Sci-Fi is describing as "a special two-hour extended episode." The thing that people are unsure of is whether the movie counts toward the 22 episode count. Will the movie count as two episodes, and then Season Four proper will be the standard 20 episode? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 17:39, 22 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Faster-Than-Light Stuff ==<br />
<br />
Hi there. We know that Ron Moore's goal for the show, as stated in his [[Naturalistic science fiction]] essay, was not to use incredulous science for the show, for instance, faster-than-light travel. We have a little debate if that applied to faster-than-light communications. Several instances appeared where Cylon downloading and communications may move faster than light. We understand that "FTL" travel is apparent-FTL through the [[FTL|wormhole theory]], but has there been a change to how writers handle, say, communications between Cylons at long range (like between one basestar to the infected one in "[[Torn]]"). Did Boomer's consciousness go to a Resurrection Ship and then to Caprica, or traveled farther, relayed, or some other process? If you like, you can see the extended debate in the [[Talk:Faster-than-light communication]] article to note our confusion. If true-FTL does not exist anywhere in the Re-imagined universe, we'll just tack it up to a continuity error that, I feel at least, is for cinematic purposes so a story doesn't get all overly technical or complicated. Thanks. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:07, 23 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Let me ask me more precise question: how do the Cylons manage to appear at the Fleet's previous position less than 12 hours after it jumped away? The Fleet must be making multi-lightyear jumps, since their destination (the Ionian nebula) is thousands of lightyears away. Does the radiation signature from the ''[[Daru Mozu]]'' travel faster than light? The radiation signature from the [[Cloud 9]] blast did travel at lightspeed. Do the Cylons have some other way of tracking the Fleet? Or is it simply a continuity error? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 03:48, 25 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Note that we can't be sure the Cylons really traced them with the radiation signature. That is only what Six suggested they "might have done." Six might even be lying -- not about the signature's presence, but about how usable it is for tracking -- to cover up the real tracking method. But most of all, the Cylon fleet at Ionia didn't track them there using the radiation signature because the Mining ship was off elsewhere as a decoy. <br />
::Now that said, since an FTL radiation signature seems unlikely, this would imply that if used, the radiation signature somehow allows the Cylons to track where a ship has jumped from its origination point. ie. that somehow the mining ship radiated its target jump coordinates. It's never said, but the colonials clearly believe it is not possible to tell where a ship jumped to, but the only ways to track a jumping ship would be either that, or an FTL transmission from the destination.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:05, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Identity of the Final Five ==<br />
<br />
Out of curosity, how long have you guys known who the final five are? I know Ron Moore's made comments that indicate that these were more recent decisions, but I was just curious at what point did you guys decide on who were going to be Cylons, and what really went into that decision. Thanks! [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 16:55, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Production numbers ==<br />
<br />
There is a question about the actual production numbers behind the series. For instance, there is some information on the internet where the production numbers differ. For instance, some are formatted like ("T2701") -- an alleged production number for "[[Occupation]]" -- while others are formatted as 03001 (or even 301). Just wanted to know what exactly the actual "production number" should look like. Thanks Bradley! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 08:58, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
: I believe that the T27nn numbers are internal Warner Bros. numbers for the Comcast tapes that they made and fed to Comcast. I believe the 030nn numbers correspond to the production office assignments to the episodes, i.e., where 03019 is the production number for 'Crossroads, Part 2'. Thanks for helping in clearing this up.[[User:Vidiot|Vidiot]] 01:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Xeno vs Zeno Fenner (Dirty Hands) ==<br />
<br />
Currently we have him as "[[Xeno Fenner|Xeno]]", but the SciFi website lists him as "Zeno". Do you know which version is correct? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:07, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Cylon numbers ==<br />
<br />
Although we've been flooded with Cylon identities lately (we now know 11 of the 12 models), we still know only four numbers ([[Number Three|Three]], [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six|Six]] and [[Number Eight|Eight]]). Could you enlighten us as to the numbers of the other seven known Cylons? If you can't tell us that, can you at least tell us whether these numbers will be revealed in [[Season 4 (2008)|Season Four]]? It would also be interesting to know if the one remaining Cylon is indeed Number One, as we suspected. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:24, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Centurions and the final five ==<br />
<br />
We already know [[Centurion]]s are hard-coded not to hurt the Significant Seven. Does the same go for the [[final five]]? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 11:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:We've seen em shoot at Anders, so I'd say no. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:44, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::They've also shot at Athena, though in neither case have they hit the target Cylon. Also, it hasn't been stated that they are hard-coded to not hurt the Seven (unless ordered, as by Three), only that they aren't sentient enough to rebel against them. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:34, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Alright, rephrase: do the Centurions 'know' the final five? Would they take orders from them? Or are they just as ignorant as the Seven? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:17, 9 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::Well it seems logical that the Seven programmed the Centurions, so I don't think the Centurions would know what the Seven don't. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:11, 9 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::::To be fair that's actually quite the assumption; the Significant Seven don't know who programmed them, so I don't think it's a stretch to consider that they don't know who did the base program of the Centurions either. There's enough to go either way with it, so I think the question given here is a valid one. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 15:54, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::::Actually that's a good point. for some reason I assumed the Seven programmed the rest. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:44, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Adama/Tigh Meeting==<br />
Hello, Mr. Thompson. Given the recent revelations about Tigh a lot of people have become interested on when he met Adama, but when we look back we have 2 conflicting sources. So I was wondering if you could maybe tell us which is considered to be the real one? Without revealing anything of course.<br />
<br />
Now, we saw them meet in the flashbacks in “Scattered”, which are mentioned in the podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Scattered] to be 20 years before the miniseries, and this also seems to fit with how they look and such.<br />
<br />
However, in “Torn” Adama says he has known Tigh for 30 years, and though admittedly it’s now technically 22-23 years after their official meeting, “30” is still a long way. It’s quite possible that Adama was dramatizing for the purpose of connecting to Tigh, but either way it creates doubt.<br />
<br />
So my question was, is the timeline we were originally presented the official one or is it different? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:18, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Spelling of carom and meaning of DRADIS ==<br />
<br />
There has been some [[Talk:Dradis|debate]] recently as to how [[carom]] is spelled. Some say carom, some karam, and some charagm. The subtitles spell it as carom, are they right? How do the scripts spell it? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 02:32, 16 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
And for that matter, do you have consistent meaning of "DRADIS"? We currently have "Direction, RAnge and DIStance" which fits with recon photography, but is somewhat redundant. Someone suggested "Direction, Right Ascension and DISstance" which would fit as well. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:46, 16 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Roslin and the Admiral ==<br />
<br />
Following on from the discussion at [[Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation]]... in the frak party podcast, RDM said that he decided against Mary and Edward being in the four revealed Cylons because it would take something away from the series. Does this mean that unequivocally the Admiral and Roslin are not the final Cylon?</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Archive4&diff=119795Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive42007-04-26T09:26:35Z<p>SSH: /* Laura Roslin */</p>
<hr />
<div>:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
:''For discussions prior to March 13, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=113030 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
{{talk page warning}}<br />
<br />
==Archived Page==<br />
I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Romo Lampkin's entry ==<br />
<br />
I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Statement on Death ==<br />
<br />
I have changed the following line:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote><br />
<br />
The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==<br />
I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Kara Thrace==<br />
According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Major Revision Needed==<br />
I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:<br />
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.<br />
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.<br />
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==<br />
<br />
OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.<br />
<br />
But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)<br />
<br />
Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==<br />
While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.<br />
<br />
Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:<br />
<br />
*Boomer herself<br />
*[[D'Anna Biers]]<br />
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol<br />
*[[Saul Tigh]]<br />
*[[Tory Foster]]<br />
*[[Galen Tyrol]]<br />
<br />
You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.<br />
<br />
As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== article reboot ==<br />
<br />
Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.<br />
<br />
This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.<br />
<br />
I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")<br />
<br />
(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==<br />
<br />
Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) <br />
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Laura Roslin ==<br />
<br />
As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}<br />
: This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::: RDM saying he knows who the final Cylon is happened at roughly the same time as him saying Adama and Roslin weren't Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: I have not listened to the whole podcast, but I heard part where he said he ruled out Roslin and Adama, and that was referring to who the 4 revealed Cylons would be, not about who the 5th one is. Did he say it again at a later point in the podcast? If not, I count this as strong evidence against Adama and Roslin but not an absolute rule-out. He likes to equivocate on these things, remember. It could very well be that he said that Roslin would not make sense (as one of the 4) because she's already planned as the 5th, for example.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::From the Sci Fi forums:<br />
::::QUOTE<br />
:::::Do you already know who the fifth cylon of the final five is? If so, '''have you already left us some clues'''?<br />
::::Yes and '''yes'''.<br />
::::Ron<br />
:::So not only does RDM already know, he also left clues in Season 3. This was posted March 26 2007 (the day after the finale aired). [http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/04/04/bsg-podcast-recap-battlestar-galactica-frak-party-qanda/ On TV Squad] we have:<br />
::::Posted Apr 4th 2007 3:49PM by Keith McDuffee<br />
::::(...)<br />
::::While we await Ron Moore's commentary podcast for Battlestar's season finale, we were treated '''yesterday''' to a Q&A podcast between Moore, his wife and several fans at a viewing party in Berkley, CA.<br />
:::So the frak party podcast was released on April 3rd (one week after the finale), and that's the podcast in which he says (paraphrasing) "there were two people we didn't want to make Cylons: Roslin and Adama". He also says this when discussing his choices for the Fantastic Four. I think that pretty much rules out Roslin and Adama as Cylons, although if you're still not satisfied yet, you can of course always [[BW:OC|ask Brad]] to be sure. <br />
--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:49, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::His words are "We didn't want Eddie, that would rob something from the show, didn't want Mary." I will need to go back and transcribe the surrounding dialogue, because as I said, he likes to equivocate about surprises. (He says he never lied about Starbuck, only equivocated.) I just want all the folks who were sure beyond a doubt that Tigh was no Cylon to be careful when you think you're sure!--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::::This exactly what I was getting at. Revealing Roslin as a cylon at that point would take something from the series, but having the revelation late in the possibly-final series would not... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:26, 26 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Serpents Two and Ten ==<br />
<br />
Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Nah, 2 and 10 means 2+10, 12. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:57, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The analysis for the episode is [[The Hand of God (RDM)|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Archive4&diff=119398Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive42007-04-23T14:46:31Z<p>SSH: /* Laura Roslin */ but but but</p>
<hr />
<div>:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
:''For discussions prior to March 13, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=113030 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
{{talk page warning}}<br />
<br />
==Archived Page==<br />
I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Romo Lampkin's entry ==<br />
<br />
I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Statement on Death ==<br />
<br />
I have changed the following line:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote><br />
<br />
The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==<br />
I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Kara Thrace==<br />
According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Major Revision Needed==<br />
I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:<br />
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.<br />
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.<br />
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==<br />
<br />
OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.<br />
<br />
But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)<br />
<br />
Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==<br />
While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.<br />
<br />
Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:<br />
<br />
*Boomer herself<br />
*[[D'Anna Biers]]<br />
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol<br />
*[[Saul Tigh]]<br />
*[[Tory Foster]]<br />
*[[Galen Tyrol]]<br />
<br />
You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.<br />
<br />
As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== article reboot ==<br />
<br />
Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.<br />
<br />
This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.<br />
<br />
I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")<br />
<br />
(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==<br />
<br />
Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) <br />
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Laura Roslin ==<br />
<br />
As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}<br />
: This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:: But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Serpents Two and Ten ==<br />
<br />
Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Archive4&diff=119397Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive42007-04-23T14:43:30Z<p>SSH: Serpents Two and Ten</p>
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<div>:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]<br />
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:''For discussions prior to March 13, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=113030 see this revision.]<br />
<br />
{{talk page warning}}<br />
<br />
==Archived Page==<br />
I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Romo Lampkin's entry ==<br />
<br />
I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Statement on Death ==<br />
<br />
I have changed the following line:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote><br />
<br />
The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==<br />
I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Kara Thrace==<br />
According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Major Revision Needed==<br />
I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:<br />
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.<br />
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.<br />
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==<br />
<br />
OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.<br />
<br />
But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)<br />
<br />
Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==<br />
While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.<br />
<br />
Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:<br />
<br />
*Boomer herself<br />
*[[D'Anna Biers]]<br />
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol<br />
*[[Saul Tigh]]<br />
*[[Tory Foster]]<br />
*[[Galen Tyrol]]<br />
<br />
You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.<br />
<br />
As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== article reboot ==<br />
<br />
Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.<br />
<br />
This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.<br />
<br />
I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")<br />
<br />
(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==<br />
<br />
Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) <br />
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Laura Roslin ==<br />
<br />
As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}<br />
: This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Serpents Two and Ten ==<br />
<br />
Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)</div>SSHhttps://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Archive4&diff=119387Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive42007-04-23T14:08:18Z<p>SSH: Laura Roslin</p>
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<div>:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]<br />
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:''For discussions prior to March 13, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=113030 see this revision.]<br />
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{{talk page warning}}<br />
<br />
==Archived Page==<br />
I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Romo Lampkin's entry ==<br />
<br />
I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
== Statement on Death ==<br />
<br />
I have changed the following line:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote><br />
<br />
The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==<br />
I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Kara Thrace==<br />
According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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==Major Revision Needed==<br />
I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:<br />
*Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.<br />
*Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.<br />
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==<br />
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OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.<br />
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But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)<br />
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Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==<br />
While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.<br />
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Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:<br />
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*Boomer herself<br />
*[[D'Anna Biers]]<br />
*The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol<br />
*[[Saul Tigh]]<br />
*[[Tory Foster]]<br />
*[[Galen Tyrol]]<br />
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You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.<br />
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As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== article reboot ==<br />
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Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.<br />
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This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.<br />
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I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")<br />
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(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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: I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==<br />
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Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT) <br />
:RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
:::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)<br />
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== Laura Roslin ==<br />
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As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion.</div>SSH