Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2007-06-26T02:50:11Z

Zethon: /* Adama meeting Saul */

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 1
| number = 1
| start = July 28th, 2005
| end = November 31st, 2005
| items = {{archive-item|1|Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness}} {{archive-item|1|Home II}} {{archive-item|1|Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons}} {{archive-item|1|Untangling Season 2|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 2
| number = 2
| start = January 7th, 2006
| end = March 22nd, 2006
| items = {{archive-item|2|6 months?}} {{archive-item|2|Duration of Home, Part I}} {{archive-item|2|Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"}} {{archive-item|2|When is the Presidential Election?}} {{archive-item|2|Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes}} {{archive-item|2|The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|2|Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note}} {{archive-item|2|Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 3
| number = 3
| start = March 22nd, 2006
| end = Present
| items = {{archive-item|3|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|3|Days v. Day}} {{archive-item|3|Dating "The Captain's Hand"}} {{archive-item|3|Future Events}} {{archive-item|3|"Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians|end=y}}
|}}

== the Colonial calender ==

Since '''Hero''' has revealed how the Colonial calender counts it's years and the the "current" year is 21,356 the timeline should be updated. ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 19:27, 19 November 2006 (CST))
: I disagree with the usage of these dates, particularly in lieu of [[:Image:Execution Order Signature.png|the document Baltar signed]] in "[[Precipice]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:53, 19 November 2006 (CST)
*Indeed, the document gives that particular day as "3454-91". -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
::There's even a different (third) timekeeping system used on Adama's letter of resignation in "Hero". The Dossier is useful for pinning down relative dates, but I don't think we should read too much into the calendar system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:25, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::There's also a not-so-clear chart on Laura Roslin in "Epiphanies", which was located at the foot of her sickbay bed. We see this briefly and it is blurry enough not to make out specific numbers, but said document appears to be using a different dating structure as well. Also, given the [[Cimtar Peace Accords]] documents and [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] in the mini-series, the documents should be treated with a healthy skepticism. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Another thought... in general, I have to say that we should probably avoid using in-universe dating, and go with keeping the dating system as simple as possible (using the Fall of the Colonies as a baseline). Since there is more than enough evidence thus far proving that the in-universe dating system is inconsistently applied, I believe using this would only lead to horrible inaccuracies, the bane of any reference's existence. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Hero Continuity Discrepency==
Given the amount of discussion it has generated on other BSG websites I have been surprised to note that the enormous continuity errors in Hero haven't been discussed here. Namely the error that Adama was on board Valkyrie 1 year before the attacks and was given command of Galactica afterwards as a retirement posting, yet in You Can't Go Home Again he states that he has commanded Starbuck "On THIS ship," for more than 2 years. There's also the problem that he served with Tyrol for 5 years (and Tyrol listed all of the battlestars he served on in Resistance and Valkyrie wasn't one of them), Gaeta for 3 years prior to the attack, Boomer for 2 years and Captain Kelly for some time as well (didn't he say 2 years as well in the mini?). I can see Adama taking Tigh with him from Valkyrie to Galactica, but 5 other crewmen as well? And a fairly random selection at that (a flight operations officer, a bridge officer, a nugget, a pilot, a deckhand, assuming Tyrol was in a more junior post at that time)? Plus only Tigh and Adama knew Bulldog. Starbuck and Tyrol seemed to have no idea who he was.

To add to the chaos, Adama seems to genuinely believe that he could have sparked the Attack on the Colonies. This is impossible as Adama served with Boomer for 2 years prior to the Attack, thus the Cylons were infiltrating the Colonies 1 year before the Valkyrie mission and Adama knows this. By itself, this seems to indicate that the Valkyrie mission must take place considerably earlier than it is claimed.

Possible solutions:
1) Adama was in charge of Galactica and went to Valkyrie to do this one special mission, requesting that Bulldog and Tigh go with him. UNLIKELY: Tyrol, Starbuck and Athena should still have recognised Bulldog (they missed a trick by not having Bulldog bump into Athena, recognise her as a Cylon and freaking out btw). Bulldog definitely was not on Galactica before as he wanted to know what Adama was doing on such an old ship. This is still problematic as Boomer's presence would tell Adama that the Cylons were already infiltrating the Colonies, thus his mission had nothing to do with the Attack.

2) The producers forgot about the year on New Caprica, so the Valkyrie mission was actually 2 years before the Attack. However, this causes problems in that Adama had still served with Gaeta and Tyrol by that point. Moving it back to 3 years before the Attack (meaning the producers forgot about the year on New Caprica and nine months the series spanned before that as well, which seems ludicrous) only gives us Tyrol to worry about and that can be explained by Tyrol being on Valkyrie (and serving on the other flight pod to the one Bulldog used and being in a junior position, so he never worked with him) and going with the Old Man to Galactica (and forgetting to list Valkyrie among his previous posts). That seems to be fine. The only problem with this is that this means that Bulldog was a prisoner of the Cylons for SIX years, not three, a very considerable difference.

Solution: There isn't one. At least with the last big screw-up (Flight of the Phoenix) it was possible to come to a conclusion by saying that episode took place over two to three months. With this problem, it seems totally self-contradictory (I wonder if RDM didn't do a podcast for this episode simply because he realised how messed up the timeline was).

EDIT: I just found some discussion on the Hero episode page, which basically seems to reach the same conclusion I did: there isn't an explanation except the dialogue in this episode is plain wrong. Oh well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 16:24, 26 November 2006 (CST)
 
*If we're supposing that the current year is 21356 (based on Adama's 45 years in service beginning in 21311), this is the only explanation I've found that works in the timeline:

:*D6/21311 First commission: Battlestar Galactica fighter squadron
...
:*C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
:*C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica
...
:*''21353 Commissioned for Valkyrie mission/Bulldog captured/Adama sent back to Galactica to retire (this wouldn't be on Adama's service record)''
:*''21354 Cylons attack the 12 Colonies''
:*''21356 Bulldog returns/Adama awarded medal of distinction.''

'''Further explanation:''' Since the time frame is fuzzy, it could be explained in retrospect that Adama had already fallen out of favor with the Admiralty and been stationed on Galactica for 5 years before they gave him one final chance to return to his old ship and crew. If he succeeded, he'd resume command of the Valkyrie; if he failed, he'd gracefully retire with Galactica. He failed, but this time took Tigh with him. Bulldog was asking Tigh how ''he'' ended up on Galactica, not specifically Adama. This fits the dialogue AND the timeline, and would not appear on the service record due to it being a black-ops mission. --[[User:Empire279|Empire279]] 19:56, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Unfinished Business ==
I just got done with this episode and it confused me a little over the timeline so I came here to try to clear it up, but I find I'm just further confused.

The events at the groundbreaking were 17 months before the episode and 8 months before the Cylon occupation of New Caprica. What confused me at first was since The Resistance covered the 4 months after the occupation, the exodus from New Caprica must have taken place 12 months after the groundbreaking, meaning the fleet has been traveliing again for 5 months. This didn't seem right to me, though I don't think there's anything essentially wrong with it - I just felt like it had been a shorter time.

But when I came here to try to clear it up I ran into this:

Day 660 (380th day since settlement): Cylon forces occupy New Caprica.

If this happened a year after the order to settle New Caprica (as shown in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), that would lead me to believe that the order was given on day 300. And that the grounbreaking was on day 420 (8 months before the occupation). But the timelime has these fixed at about Day 285 and Day 315 respectively.

The date of the settlement order isn't that bad - a difference of 15 days from what I expected could easily be rounded off to 1 year. But the groundbreaking listed at day 315 doesn't make any sense to me given the jump of one year in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] and the fact that the groundbreaking was 8 months before the occupation ([[Unfinished Business]]).

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[EDIT] I thought about this a bit more, and while I was a little surprised at the dates involved, I think the biggest problem is why the groundbreaking for the colony is a full four months after the order to settle on New Caprica - something that is simply a problem from the show itself, and not something a timeline can work around.

--[[User:Jp Corkery|Jp Corkery]] 06:16, 7 December 2006 (CST)

:Was it the groundbreaking for the colony of New Caprica City itself (which was already being settled) or for some building or structure there? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 13 December 2006 (CST)

:I too assumed it was the groundbreaking of some random building. However, the (unofficial) transcript says:
:"(Baltar breaks ground on the settlement to the sound of applause and cheers; Jammer and Duck are there.)
:Baltar: Thank you. Let this day be remembered as the day we broke ground for our new tomorrow."
:I don't know. His rhetoric definitely sounds a bit grandiose for an administration building or a hospital (not to mention having the big party that was thrown). Troubling... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:45, 13 December 2006 (CST)

:I too believe it was for the settlement as a whole and not just a building, perhaps it was a little of both. The ground breaking could had been for the first '''''permanent''''' building for the settlement on [[New Caprica]] as opposed to mere tents and huts. At any rate, we are give hard dates in which to measure the passage of time and I agree that the non flashback events of [[Unfinished Business]] takes place five months after the events of [[Collaborators]], I think that was the last time we were given a hard and fast date before Unfinished Business ("three days after the Second Exodus"). Also, I don't think it was just two days after the events of [[Hero]] that the events of Unfinished Business happened. I don't think after the bad beating Adm. Adama got at the hands of Lt. Novacek he would climb into a boxing ring just two days later, I don't think Doctor Cottle would allow it. I feel at least a week if not two seems more reasonable. And for the record I think it was more than a few days between Unfinished business and [[The Passage]]. I think two weeks at least feels more comfortable for the Colonials to detect the problem and then conduct a search while the fleets previously processed non contaminated food supply that people had in their cubbards and refrigerators a chance to deplete. From the looks at when Lee Adama, Starbuck and company wolfed down their remaining food it was a considerable amount of time between finding the problem to near starvation. It must be noted no matter what, Galactica is on a different time flow than we are. After all there have been only about 8 episodes (treat [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]] & [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|II]], [[Occupation]] & [[Precipice]] and [[Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]] as three two hour episodes each) between the events of [[Downloaded]] and the birth of [[Hera]] (aired May 2, 2006); and the events in [[The Eye of Jupiter]], when Athena learned that she was still alive (aired December 15, 2006). Only eight months have passed in our time but that is two years elapsed time in Galactica's timeline at least. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:57, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:When I watched I thought that it was the first permanent building as well, as opposed to provisional tents. And that they used that ocassion for a general celebration --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:04, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Justification of the change of the timeline==

I have just edited the time line from the benchmark Day 285 to 315 as outlined in the previous [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] timeline post. It is assumed by the previous person that posted it that the Colonials begin to land on New Caprica for permanent settlement in the thirty days between day 285 and day 315. I essentially split the difference and say they began to disembark civilians to the planet on day 300. That is day one of the settlement of New Caprica not when Baltar did the ground breaking ceremony, which I calculate to be approximately four months later or approximately day 420; that is Day 300 + 120 days=420. Now I derived this because the first flash back of [[Unfinished Business]] gave the dates "17 months ago, 8 months before the Occupation" or words to that effect. At the end of '''Lay Down your Burdens Part II''' a Doral unit said they spotted the light of Gina's nuclear blast that left the Fleet the year before. Now the Cylons may be derived from machines, computers, but they have not demonstrated that they are as exacting in speech and time measurement as the android Lt. Commander Data was or the Vulcans Spock, T'Pol, Tuvok were, or the former Borg "7 of 9" was in the various '''Star Trek''' series, so they estimate like humans. On the other hand also like humans I don't think they would round off eight months into a year. A full four months or 120 days is being chopped off doing that, so I believe when Doral said they noticed the blast of light that came from the vicinity of New Caprica a year ago (from the Colonial's perspective), I believe he means just about a year, give a week or two less or more than a year, not a full four months less than a chronological year. Also, I don't think it took four months for the Cylons to figure out where the blast came from. Just follow the flash of light and make a bee line for the source. From that, if the Cylons landed almost exactly a year later, then that ground breaking ceremony was four months after the first settlers landed on New Caprica since the occupation was stated to be eight months (240 days) in the future. From there, we know that the occupation lasted only four months (120 days) before the Exodus. That places the Exodus almost exactly one year after the ground breaking by Baltar on New Caprica. So you have 12 total months (385-365 days) of settlement in freedom on NC, then four months of occupation for a total of approximately 16 months or approximately 420 days.

In '''Unfinished Business''' it was stated that the events of '''Unfinished Business''' happened 17 months-about 510 days-after the ground breaking and eight months-240 days-before the occupation. Combine that with the total length of the occupation, four months or 120 days, that would mean that from the point of the ground breaking to the Exodus it is almost exactly 1 year or 12 months or 360-365 days in time.

Now you have approximately 17 months (approximately 510 days) from the ground breaking on New Caprica to '''Unfinished Business'''; minus approximately 12 months (365 days) from that groundbreaking to the events in [[Collaborators]] (which was three days after the Exodus); which equals approximately five months or 145-150 days left. That means that five months since the Exodus has elapsed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. Now some of the dates are not exact given that some of them are estimates, especially the two week window the previous time line gave for the settlement of NC given previously: "Between c. Day 285 and c. Day 315". I as noted settled on day 300 that the settlement started allowing for the Galactica crew to do a two week survey of the location of New Caprica City.But the start of the settlement process could had started as much as two weeks later and still be plausible to meet Doral's "we noticed the nuclear blast in the time it took for light from it to reach us" explanation. However, given the hard dates we are given. It can be safely derived that five months have passed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''.

Incidentally I do disagree with the closeness of events in episodes as outlined after '''Collaborators'''. It seems that the original person who did it thinks the episodes happen within two or three days of one another. I don't think that is the case. As I just shown there is a five moth gap of time between '''Collaborators''' and [[Unfinished Business]], plenty of room to spread out the three episodes in between-[[Torn]], [[A Measure of Salvation]] and [[Hero]]. I think there is a need for a gap particularly between '''Hero''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. I don't think Adama would climb into a ring two days after being beaten so badly by Lt. Novacek. A gap of at the very least of a week should be there; more like two weeks. Even more so, I also think that there is a wide gap between '''Unfinished Business''' and [[The Passage]]. I don't think the Fleet would reach starvation levels within a month of the discovery of the contamination. They would need time to find a suitable planet as well. However, I did leave the two day gaps between episodes since I don't have any alternative time line regarding that, just common sense. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 10:13, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:I'm sorry, I can't stand by this. The Day 385 date was better in the asbsence of any knowledge to the contrary, and "Unfinished Business" does not supply that. The groundbreaking was explicitly not for the colony, which Dualla even remarked had existed for at least a month prior. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:22, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::I happen to agree with you that New Caprica was being settled long before Baltar stuck his shovel in the ground. I thought I made that clear before, but I didn't so I am re-editing my previous post (the one you are answering). And while '''Unfinished Business''' doesn't supply an exact date as to when the first settlers landed, I think the Doral unit who answered Baltar when the Cylons arrived gave us a good idea. In '''Lay Down Your Burdens Part II''' A Doral said that they noticed the light of Gina's Nuclear blast just about then, which is why it took them a year to show up at New Caprica, given the speed of light. In other words the Cylons were about a light year away when Cloud 9 blew up. Since it is almost certain the settlement of New Caprica started soon after (the civilians were just itching to get out of the "boxes" that were the spaceships), and by settlement I mean putting up the first tents and huts with civilians living in them, that means the settlement started a year before the Cylon invasion. It took a year for the light of Gina's explosion to reach the Cylons. The ground breaking took place eight months before the Cylons came or roughly four months after the first settlers arrived. Again, I speculate that the ground breaking was for a '''''permanent''''' building in New Caprica City, perhaps the Administration/Detention Center? Maybe its original purpose was to be the New Caprica City city hall? [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:29, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Episode timeline slight adjustment ==

I spread out the episode incidences between day 800 of [[Collaborators]] and day 950 of [[Unfinished Business]]. I left the small time gap between [[Torn]] and [[A Measure of Salvation]] sincethe latter does occur very shortly after the former. In fact, I narrowed the gap between them to only one day. Again, I am trying to use common sense to get a feel as to when the episodes happened. From this I believe there was a gap of about two weeks between [[Hero]] and Unfinished Business because it would take about two weeks for Admiral Adama to recover from the beating Lt. Novacek gave him, but I think that beating gave Adama the idea of a boxing match to get the bile out of the system of the crew, seeing how "therapeutic" it was for both Saul and Novacek. Conversely I think only a day would be needed between the events of "Torn" and "A Measure of Salvation" to access the Cylons and formulate and execute a plan to recon the disabled Baseship. They don't want to wait too long less the Cylons come back. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 13:08, 22 December 2006 (CST)
:Good in principle, but I generally don't like guessing dates when we have nothing to go on. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:18, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::I understand what your concerns are, but I think it is better than stacking them back to back to back. That is even more unrealistic IMHO. Having them back to back etc. is no more realistic a representation of when those events happened than spreading them out, in fact less so. At least some thought goes into it using common sense like my idea of not having Adama climb into a boxing ring in "Unfinished Business" allegedly two days after getting a beating from Novacek in "Hero". At least put a two weeks of daylight between the episodes to give the 60-odd year old Adm. Adama time to recover. And the five month gap between "Collaborators" and "Unfinished Business" is much more than guess work, it is using the on screen data available. Three episodes to spread out over five months leaves a lot of room (especially for those who write Battlestar Galactica novels) and if my guesstimate dates are wrong they can be moved when canon information is available. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 19:19, 24 December 2006 (CST)

:::I wasn't responsible for any of the proposed dates for the third season content, so please don't read me as defending whatever was there before you made your contributions. My only concern is that it be clear to viewers that the third season dates are complete guesswork, as opposed to some of the second season dates which can at least be inferred from dialogue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:28, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==Major Cleanup Needed==
Despite the great work many of us have put into this article, it has become bloated, fraught with inconsistancy and has failed to cite sources within its own text. I think that each of these issues need to be addressed here, and promptly. I have created subsections below for important conversations I believe we need to have. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Style Guidelines===
How should this timeline be styled? Things to consider:
*Header structure - do we want to continue using one header per episode? How do we deal with events seen in flashbacks, or alluded to in dialogue? Bear in mind that too many headers creates a cluttery table of contents, but that headers are needed for article structure.
*Summary style - how detailed should episode summaries be? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I've normally stayed clear of this article, but last week I was ready to tear this apart after trying to read it through. For one, the episode summaries should hardly exist, with only the barest mention of the timeline item and a source link for more information. With the slowness of the holidays I may still go in and start cleaning this up (we can always re-add from the archived revisions).

:A timeline ''must'' be linear or it makes no sense. As such, "flashbacks" are added in as with other data (these items are usually given some reference date for the audience anyway, making it easy to fit in). The timeline article should NOT be used for plotting continuity errors and the like. If an item has a bad fit, it should be placed in [[Continuity errors (RDM)]] in a special subsection (with a reference link on the central timeline article). The biggest problem with this article (aside from oversized episode summaries) is the fanwanking we do to try to get things to fit. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:45, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Citation===
Timeline entries ''must'' cite their sources, or when no source is available, provide or link to concise argumentation that takes into account all reasonable viewpoints (excluding patent fanwankery). How should this be done?
*Using citation templates would create a very long and complicated "notes" section, but would have the advantage of making organization easier.
*Alternatively, we could link to small articles in the Sources namespace, such as "Sources:Dates for Exodus, Part II" or "Sources:Exodus, Part II (Timeline)". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Reference notes are best handled here for extended notes, but usually an episode cite should be fine. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Consistency===
I believe that before we allow modification to existing rationalle, we should allow a reasonable window for debate (one week?) and that after modifications are made, they should be immediately promulgated to other articles which cite this one (including [[survivor count]], and the battle chronology). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Question on consistency - why are some timeline entries italicized and others not? [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 12:56, 26 December 2006 (CST)
::It looks like it started as entries with a footnote were italicized, though that only holds for the first couple entries. However, I would think that the footnote itself is sufficient indication that the entry has a footnote, and would lean towards "unitalicizing" the italicized entries (unless there's some other reason for the italics). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:08, 26 December 2006 (CST)
:::Originally the italics were to be a flag to a continuity error, but maybe there is a more marked way (an icon?) to do it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===First Revision Complete===
I've heavily concised the timeline, removing guesses and unestablished date stamps, removing unnecessary or excessive episode narrative, moving about special notes and adding a reference section. This brought the article from around 56KB to 39KB, so there is much left to do, thus the cleanup tag. The latter section should be truncated or moved to another article, if the Continuity Errors article doesn't already have this information. We should try to complete cleanup before season 3 resumes. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Two suggestions: 
1.) Removing the part about predictions that haven't come true. Not needed at all IMO. 
2.) Creating a new article called "Colonial Dates", "Colonial Dating Scheme" or something along that line, moving those paragraphs there and linking to it. 
--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:44, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Good ideas. I'll look into it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:12, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I agree with both suggestions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:44, 26 December 2006 (CST)

::Done. [[Colonial calendar]] breaks up the information. The past predictions data is already scattered about episode summaries and the like, and has been deleted. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

== I propose to shift "Lay Down Your Burdens Parts I & II" over about 10 days. ==

Why? Because I doubt very much that Sharon Agathon on losing her baby on day 270 (so she thought) and strongly suspecting Adama, Roslin, Cottle or all three of "killing" her she would be in any mood to help the colonials at that time no matter how much she wants to fit in. She may recover quickly physically for such a mission, we saw proof of that with her recovering very quickly after being bombarded with radiation in [[The Passage]], but psychologically I don't think she will bounce back as much. Indeed, in the Raptor on its way to Caprica she was still in morning. I would think that it would be at least a week for Helo to get her to agree to such a mission given her state of mind emotionally. Therefore I believe the anchor date of the mission starting should be day 280 and not day 270. This would give some realistic daylight and distance from the trauma of her loosing her baby and later agreeing to go on the mission. It will also still be in keeping with Tom Zarek's statement about the colonies being couped up in metal boxes for nine months. He may not be talking ''exactly'' nine months. If the elapsed time was really nine months and a fortnight it still would be within the human norm of estimation. Tyrol could start having his nightmares on day 266 instead of 256. Everything else can also be shifted over seven to ten days and not interfere with the beginning of settlement of New Caprica which is guesstimated to have started on day 300. Again the justification is that I doubt very much that Sharon Agathon would be in a state of mind to help the Colonials immediately after her baby dying and suspecting she was murdered. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 20:29, 2 January 2007 (CST)
:Some space is reasonable to assume here. I would only strive to ensure that all references to "nine months" fall within a +/-14 day span of the actual day 270. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:32, 3 January 2007 (CST)

==Another Colonial Date in "Precipice"==
Remember in "Hero" where we saw several dates of Adama's with a Colonial dating system? Well I was looking at the premiere, and in the Execution Forms Baltar signs the date for that day is given:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7797/datejr5.jpg

"'''Second Day of 3454-91'''"...Just thought you might want to know. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:18, 13 January 2007 (CST)

== Split Idea ==

To long. To much of a headache. Spliting this into a series is only best... [[Timeline - Season 1 (RDM)]].. etc. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:07, 2 February 2007 (CST)
: Probably the best idea for this article. However, the [[Timeline (RDM)]] article should remain as an overview of important dates, with the more detailed breakdowns in the [[Timeline - Season 1 (RDM)]], [[Timeline - Season 2 (RDM)]], and [[Timeline - Season 3 (RDM)]] pages. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 02:09, 3 February 2007 (CST)

:Agreed. Leave this page as disambiguation and to present the general idea (as well as the pre-Miniseries timeline) and then link to the sub-pages --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:53, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::I concur. This ideas show allow us to keep this page clean and straightforward with mininum discussion about timeline anomalies. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:57, 14 February 2007 (CST)

::Has this page lost its way? Towards the beginning it seems to only catalog events that can be time indexed. Towards the end of it seems more like almost like high-level episode summary. This seems redundant (outside of helping to capture where flashback events take place in the overall timeline). Maybe it's just a matter of trimming down the later summaries to fewer bullets. I'm not exactly sure what bugs me about it... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:01, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::I somewhat agree. The increasing level of detail in the summaries has been nagging me too. I just think it's unnecessary to repeat every tiny plot point --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::Absolutely agreed. When I was shepherding this article, I tried to keep summaries pithy and focused on relevant details, but later contributors have not followed suit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:51, 14 February 2007 (CST)

:So, is still split still going to happen? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:03, 19 February 2007 (CST)
::Yep. Go ahead and do it my son. :-D [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:05, 19 February 2007 (CST)
:::Ok dad. Will do it tomorrow. I should have gone to bed two hours ago :( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:07, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Done \o/ Anything left to do here? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:09, 20 February 2007 (CST)

== Ancient history ==

"2,000 years BCH: The remaining Twelve Tribes leave Kobol"

I contest this point. The THIRTEEN tribes left Kobol 2,000 years ago (for the Colonies.) The THIRTEENTH tribe also left Kobol 4,000 years ago (for Earth, but then they, or somebody else, wound up back at Kobol to restart the cycle.) A plausible inference is that the thirteenth tribe is all twelve tribes together.

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, on the order of approximately 2,000 years.

Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.

So, in any case, it's THIRTEEN tribes, not twelve tribes, 2,000 years BCH.

--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 16:33, 21 February 2007 (CST)

:We shouldn't place too much importance in one line by one character. The date was somewhat retconned later. Previously we believed that everyone left Kobol around the same time, but for different destinations. Then they placed dates reaching further back. I don't see the need to create complicated theories because of that. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:52, 21 February 2007 (CST)
::[[BW:OC|*coughaskbradleythompsoncough*]] --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:17, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Serenity, what you're saying is that it's more likely that you are correct than that Elosha is correct. I have my money on Elosha, no offense. And the dates were "retconned?!" Cha, as if. You simply don't understand the truth.
--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 08:25, 27 February 2007 (CST)
:I just believe in Occam's Razor, which states the most simplest explanation is more likely to be correct. And I don't think every bit of information, be it visual or from dialogue should be taken as absolute, holy writ. It's just a TV show. Your theory might be nice, but it's more something for forums, as it's very speculative. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:19, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Adama meeting Saul ==

Adama and Saul have said on several occasions that they've known each other for 30 years. Why does this article say they met 20 years before the attacks? Shouldn't it be 30?

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2007-06-26T02:49:39Z

Zethon: /* Ancient history */

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 1
| number = 1
| start = July 28th, 2005
| end = November 31st, 2005
| items = {{archive-item|1|Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness}} {{archive-item|1|Home II}} {{archive-item|1|Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons}} {{archive-item|1|Untangling Season 2|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 2
| number = 2
| start = January 7th, 2006
| end = March 22nd, 2006
| items = {{archive-item|2|6 months?}} {{archive-item|2|Duration of Home, Part I}} {{archive-item|2|Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"}} {{archive-item|2|When is the Presidential Election?}} {{archive-item|2|Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes}} {{archive-item|2|The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|2|Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note}} {{archive-item|2|Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 3
| number = 3
| start = March 22nd, 2006
| end = Present
| items = {{archive-item|3|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|3|Days v. Day}} {{archive-item|3|Dating "The Captain's Hand"}} {{archive-item|3|Future Events}} {{archive-item|3|"Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians|end=y}}
|}}

== the Colonial calender ==

Since '''Hero''' has revealed how the Colonial calender counts it's years and the the "current" year is 21,356 the timeline should be updated. ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 19:27, 19 November 2006 (CST))
: I disagree with the usage of these dates, particularly in lieu of [[:Image:Execution Order Signature.png|the document Baltar signed]] in "[[Precipice]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:53, 19 November 2006 (CST)
*Indeed, the document gives that particular day as "3454-91". -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
::There's even a different (third) timekeeping system used on Adama's letter of resignation in "Hero". The Dossier is useful for pinning down relative dates, but I don't think we should read too much into the calendar system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:25, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::There's also a not-so-clear chart on Laura Roslin in "Epiphanies", which was located at the foot of her sickbay bed. We see this briefly and it is blurry enough not to make out specific numbers, but said document appears to be using a different dating structure as well. Also, given the [[Cimtar Peace Accords]] documents and [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] in the mini-series, the documents should be treated with a healthy skepticism. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Another thought... in general, I have to say that we should probably avoid using in-universe dating, and go with keeping the dating system as simple as possible (using the Fall of the Colonies as a baseline). Since there is more than enough evidence thus far proving that the in-universe dating system is inconsistently applied, I believe using this would only lead to horrible inaccuracies, the bane of any reference's existence. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Hero Continuity Discrepency==
Given the amount of discussion it has generated on other BSG websites I have been surprised to note that the enormous continuity errors in Hero haven't been discussed here. Namely the error that Adama was on board Valkyrie 1 year before the attacks and was given command of Galactica afterwards as a retirement posting, yet in You Can't Go Home Again he states that he has commanded Starbuck "On THIS ship," for more than 2 years. There's also the problem that he served with Tyrol for 5 years (and Tyrol listed all of the battlestars he served on in Resistance and Valkyrie wasn't one of them), Gaeta for 3 years prior to the attack, Boomer for 2 years and Captain Kelly for some time as well (didn't he say 2 years as well in the mini?). I can see Adama taking Tigh with him from Valkyrie to Galactica, but 5 other crewmen as well? And a fairly random selection at that (a flight operations officer, a bridge officer, a nugget, a pilot, a deckhand, assuming Tyrol was in a more junior post at that time)? Plus only Tigh and Adama knew Bulldog. Starbuck and Tyrol seemed to have no idea who he was.

To add to the chaos, Adama seems to genuinely believe that he could have sparked the Attack on the Colonies. This is impossible as Adama served with Boomer for 2 years prior to the Attack, thus the Cylons were infiltrating the Colonies 1 year before the Valkyrie mission and Adama knows this. By itself, this seems to indicate that the Valkyrie mission must take place considerably earlier than it is claimed.

Possible solutions:
1) Adama was in charge of Galactica and went to Valkyrie to do this one special mission, requesting that Bulldog and Tigh go with him. UNLIKELY: Tyrol, Starbuck and Athena should still have recognised Bulldog (they missed a trick by not having Bulldog bump into Athena, recognise her as a Cylon and freaking out btw). Bulldog definitely was not on Galactica before as he wanted to know what Adama was doing on such an old ship. This is still problematic as Boomer's presence would tell Adama that the Cylons were already infiltrating the Colonies, thus his mission had nothing to do with the Attack.

2) The producers forgot about the year on New Caprica, so the Valkyrie mission was actually 2 years before the Attack. However, this causes problems in that Adama had still served with Gaeta and Tyrol by that point. Moving it back to 3 years before the Attack (meaning the producers forgot about the year on New Caprica and nine months the series spanned before that as well, which seems ludicrous) only gives us Tyrol to worry about and that can be explained by Tyrol being on Valkyrie (and serving on the other flight pod to the one Bulldog used and being in a junior position, so he never worked with him) and going with the Old Man to Galactica (and forgetting to list Valkyrie among his previous posts). That seems to be fine. The only problem with this is that this means that Bulldog was a prisoner of the Cylons for SIX years, not three, a very considerable difference.

Solution: There isn't one. At least with the last big screw-up (Flight of the Phoenix) it was possible to come to a conclusion by saying that episode took place over two to three months. With this problem, it seems totally self-contradictory (I wonder if RDM didn't do a podcast for this episode simply because he realised how messed up the timeline was).

EDIT: I just found some discussion on the Hero episode page, which basically seems to reach the same conclusion I did: there isn't an explanation except the dialogue in this episode is plain wrong. Oh well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 16:24, 26 November 2006 (CST)
 
*If we're supposing that the current year is 21356 (based on Adama's 45 years in service beginning in 21311), this is the only explanation I've found that works in the timeline:

:*D6/21311 First commission: Battlestar Galactica fighter squadron
...
:*C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
:*C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica
...
:*''21353 Commissioned for Valkyrie mission/Bulldog captured/Adama sent back to Galactica to retire (this wouldn't be on Adama's service record)''
:*''21354 Cylons attack the 12 Colonies''
:*''21356 Bulldog returns/Adama awarded medal of distinction.''

'''Further explanation:''' Since the time frame is fuzzy, it could be explained in retrospect that Adama had already fallen out of favor with the Admiralty and been stationed on Galactica for 5 years before they gave him one final chance to return to his old ship and crew. If he succeeded, he'd resume command of the Valkyrie; if he failed, he'd gracefully retire with Galactica. He failed, but this time took Tigh with him. Bulldog was asking Tigh how ''he'' ended up on Galactica, not specifically Adama. This fits the dialogue AND the timeline, and would not appear on the service record due to it being a black-ops mission. --[[User:Empire279|Empire279]] 19:56, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Unfinished Business ==
I just got done with this episode and it confused me a little over the timeline so I came here to try to clear it up, but I find I'm just further confused.

The events at the groundbreaking were 17 months before the episode and 8 months before the Cylon occupation of New Caprica. What confused me at first was since The Resistance covered the 4 months after the occupation, the exodus from New Caprica must have taken place 12 months after the groundbreaking, meaning the fleet has been traveliing again for 5 months. This didn't seem right to me, though I don't think there's anything essentially wrong with it - I just felt like it had been a shorter time.

But when I came here to try to clear it up I ran into this:

Day 660 (380th day since settlement): Cylon forces occupy New Caprica.

If this happened a year after the order to settle New Caprica (as shown in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), that would lead me to believe that the order was given on day 300. And that the grounbreaking was on day 420 (8 months before the occupation). But the timelime has these fixed at about Day 285 and Day 315 respectively.

The date of the settlement order isn't that bad - a difference of 15 days from what I expected could easily be rounded off to 1 year. But the groundbreaking listed at day 315 doesn't make any sense to me given the jump of one year in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] and the fact that the groundbreaking was 8 months before the occupation ([[Unfinished Business]]).

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[EDIT] I thought about this a bit more, and while I was a little surprised at the dates involved, I think the biggest problem is why the groundbreaking for the colony is a full four months after the order to settle on New Caprica - something that is simply a problem from the show itself, and not something a timeline can work around.

--[[User:Jp Corkery|Jp Corkery]] 06:16, 7 December 2006 (CST)

:Was it the groundbreaking for the colony of New Caprica City itself (which was already being settled) or for some building or structure there? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 13 December 2006 (CST)

:I too assumed it was the groundbreaking of some random building. However, the (unofficial) transcript says:
:"(Baltar breaks ground on the settlement to the sound of applause and cheers; Jammer and Duck are there.)
:Baltar: Thank you. Let this day be remembered as the day we broke ground for our new tomorrow."
:I don't know. His rhetoric definitely sounds a bit grandiose for an administration building or a hospital (not to mention having the big party that was thrown). Troubling... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:45, 13 December 2006 (CST)

:I too believe it was for the settlement as a whole and not just a building, perhaps it was a little of both. The ground breaking could had been for the first '''''permanent''''' building for the settlement on [[New Caprica]] as opposed to mere tents and huts. At any rate, we are give hard dates in which to measure the passage of time and I agree that the non flashback events of [[Unfinished Business]] takes place five months after the events of [[Collaborators]], I think that was the last time we were given a hard and fast date before Unfinished Business ("three days after the Second Exodus"). Also, I don't think it was just two days after the events of [[Hero]] that the events of Unfinished Business happened. I don't think after the bad beating Adm. Adama got at the hands of Lt. Novacek he would climb into a boxing ring just two days later, I don't think Doctor Cottle would allow it. I feel at least a week if not two seems more reasonable. And for the record I think it was more than a few days between Unfinished business and [[The Passage]]. I think two weeks at least feels more comfortable for the Colonials to detect the problem and then conduct a search while the fleets previously processed non contaminated food supply that people had in their cubbards and refrigerators a chance to deplete. From the looks at when Lee Adama, Starbuck and company wolfed down their remaining food it was a considerable amount of time between finding the problem to near starvation. It must be noted no matter what, Galactica is on a different time flow than we are. After all there have been only about 8 episodes (treat [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]] & [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|II]], [[Occupation]] & [[Precipice]] and [[Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]] as three two hour episodes each) between the events of [[Downloaded]] and the birth of [[Hera]] (aired May 2, 2006); and the events in [[The Eye of Jupiter]], when Athena learned that she was still alive (aired December 15, 2006). Only eight months have passed in our time but that is two years elapsed time in Galactica's timeline at least. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:57, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:When I watched I thought that it was the first permanent building as well, as opposed to provisional tents. And that they used that ocassion for a general celebration --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:04, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Justification of the change of the timeline==

I have just edited the time line from the benchmark Day 285 to 315 as outlined in the previous [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] timeline post. It is assumed by the previous person that posted it that the Colonials begin to land on New Caprica for permanent settlement in the thirty days between day 285 and day 315. I essentially split the difference and say they began to disembark civilians to the planet on day 300. That is day one of the settlement of New Caprica not when Baltar did the ground breaking ceremony, which I calculate to be approximately four months later or approximately day 420; that is Day 300 + 120 days=420. Now I derived this because the first flash back of [[Unfinished Business]] gave the dates "17 months ago, 8 months before the Occupation" or words to that effect. At the end of '''Lay Down your Burdens Part II''' a Doral unit said they spotted the light of Gina's nuclear blast that left the Fleet the year before. Now the Cylons may be derived from machines, computers, but they have not demonstrated that they are as exacting in speech and time measurement as the android Lt. Commander Data was or the Vulcans Spock, T'Pol, Tuvok were, or the former Borg "7 of 9" was in the various '''Star Trek''' series, so they estimate like humans. On the other hand also like humans I don't think they would round off eight months into a year. A full four months or 120 days is being chopped off doing that, so I believe when Doral said they noticed the blast of light that came from the vicinity of New Caprica a year ago (from the Colonial's perspective), I believe he means just about a year, give a week or two less or more than a year, not a full four months less than a chronological year. Also, I don't think it took four months for the Cylons to figure out where the blast came from. Just follow the flash of light and make a bee line for the source. From that, if the Cylons landed almost exactly a year later, then that ground breaking ceremony was four months after the first settlers landed on New Caprica since the occupation was stated to be eight months (240 days) in the future. From there, we know that the occupation lasted only four months (120 days) before the Exodus. That places the Exodus almost exactly one year after the ground breaking by Baltar on New Caprica. So you have 12 total months (385-365 days) of settlement in freedom on NC, then four months of occupation for a total of approximately 16 months or approximately 420 days.

In '''Unfinished Business''' it was stated that the events of '''Unfinished Business''' happened 17 months-about 510 days-after the ground breaking and eight months-240 days-before the occupation. Combine that with the total length of the occupation, four months or 120 days, that would mean that from the point of the ground breaking to the Exodus it is almost exactly 1 year or 12 months or 360-365 days in time.

Now you have approximately 17 months (approximately 510 days) from the ground breaking on New Caprica to '''Unfinished Business'''; minus approximately 12 months (365 days) from that groundbreaking to the events in [[Collaborators]] (which was three days after the Exodus); which equals approximately five months or 145-150 days left. That means that five months since the Exodus has elapsed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. Now some of the dates are not exact given that some of them are estimates, especially the two week window the previous time line gave for the settlement of NC given previously: "Between c. Day 285 and c. Day 315". I as noted settled on day 300 that the settlement started allowing for the Galactica crew to do a two week survey of the location of New Caprica City.But the start of the settlement process could had started as much as two weeks later and still be plausible to meet Doral's "we noticed the nuclear blast in the time it took for light from it to reach us" explanation. However, given the hard dates we are given. It can be safely derived that five months have passed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''.

Incidentally I do disagree with the closeness of events in episodes as outlined after '''Collaborators'''. It seems that the original person who did it thinks the episodes happen within two or three days of one another. I don't think that is the case. As I just shown there is a five moth gap of time between '''Collaborators''' and [[Unfinished Business]], plenty of room to spread out the three episodes in between-[[Torn]], [[A Measure of Salvation]] and [[Hero]]. I think there is a need for a gap particularly between '''Hero''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. I don't think Adama would climb into a ring two days after being beaten so badly by Lt. Novacek. A gap of at the very least of a week should be there; more like two weeks. Even more so, I also think that there is a wide gap between '''Unfinished Business''' and [[The Passage]]. I don't think the Fleet would reach starvation levels within a month of the discovery of the contamination. They would need time to find a suitable planet as well. However, I did leave the two day gaps between episodes since I don't have any alternative time line regarding that, just common sense. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 10:13, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:I'm sorry, I can't stand by this. The Day 385 date was better in the asbsence of any knowledge to the contrary, and "Unfinished Business" does not supply that. The groundbreaking was explicitly not for the colony, which Dualla even remarked had existed for at least a month prior. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:22, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::I happen to agree with you that New Caprica was being settled long before Baltar stuck his shovel in the ground. I thought I made that clear before, but I didn't so I am re-editing my previous post (the one you are answering). And while '''Unfinished Business''' doesn't supply an exact date as to when the first settlers landed, I think the Doral unit who answered Baltar when the Cylons arrived gave us a good idea. In '''Lay Down Your Burdens Part II''' A Doral said that they noticed the light of Gina's Nuclear blast just about then, which is why it took them a year to show up at New Caprica, given the speed of light. In other words the Cylons were about a light year away when Cloud 9 blew up. Since it is almost certain the settlement of New Caprica started soon after (the civilians were just itching to get out of the "boxes" that were the spaceships), and by settlement I mean putting up the first tents and huts with civilians living in them, that means the settlement started a year before the Cylon invasion. It took a year for the light of Gina's explosion to reach the Cylons. The ground breaking took place eight months before the Cylons came or roughly four months after the first settlers arrived. Again, I speculate that the ground breaking was for a '''''permanent''''' building in New Caprica City, perhaps the Administration/Detention Center? Maybe its original purpose was to be the New Caprica City city hall? [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:29, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Episode timeline slight adjustment ==

I spread out the episode incidences between day 800 of [[Collaborators]] and day 950 of [[Unfinished Business]]. I left the small time gap between [[Torn]] and [[A Measure of Salvation]] sincethe latter does occur very shortly after the former. In fact, I narrowed the gap between them to only one day. Again, I am trying to use common sense to get a feel as to when the episodes happened. From this I believe there was a gap of about two weeks between [[Hero]] and Unfinished Business because it would take about two weeks for Admiral Adama to recover from the beating Lt. Novacek gave him, but I think that beating gave Adama the idea of a boxing match to get the bile out of the system of the crew, seeing how "therapeutic" it was for both Saul and Novacek. Conversely I think only a day would be needed between the events of "Torn" and "A Measure of Salvation" to access the Cylons and formulate and execute a plan to recon the disabled Baseship. They don't want to wait too long less the Cylons come back. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 13:08, 22 December 2006 (CST)
:Good in principle, but I generally don't like guessing dates when we have nothing to go on. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:18, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::I understand what your concerns are, but I think it is better than stacking them back to back to back. That is even more unrealistic IMHO. Having them back to back etc. is no more realistic a representation of when those events happened than spreading them out, in fact less so. At least some thought goes into it using common sense like my idea of not having Adama climb into a boxing ring in "Unfinished Business" allegedly two days after getting a beating from Novacek in "Hero". At least put a two weeks of daylight between the episodes to give the 60-odd year old Adm. Adama time to recover. And the five month gap between "Collaborators" and "Unfinished Business" is much more than guess work, it is using the on screen data available. Three episodes to spread out over five months leaves a lot of room (especially for those who write Battlestar Galactica novels) and if my guesstimate dates are wrong they can be moved when canon information is available. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 19:19, 24 December 2006 (CST)

:::I wasn't responsible for any of the proposed dates for the third season content, so please don't read me as defending whatever was there before you made your contributions. My only concern is that it be clear to viewers that the third season dates are complete guesswork, as opposed to some of the second season dates which can at least be inferred from dialogue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:28, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==Major Cleanup Needed==
Despite the great work many of us have put into this article, it has become bloated, fraught with inconsistancy and has failed to cite sources within its own text. I think that each of these issues need to be addressed here, and promptly. I have created subsections below for important conversations I believe we need to have. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Style Guidelines===
How should this timeline be styled? Things to consider:
*Header structure - do we want to continue using one header per episode? How do we deal with events seen in flashbacks, or alluded to in dialogue? Bear in mind that too many headers creates a cluttery table of contents, but that headers are needed for article structure.
*Summary style - how detailed should episode summaries be? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I've normally stayed clear of this article, but last week I was ready to tear this apart after trying to read it through. For one, the episode summaries should hardly exist, with only the barest mention of the timeline item and a source link for more information. With the slowness of the holidays I may still go in and start cleaning this up (we can always re-add from the archived revisions).

:A timeline ''must'' be linear or it makes no sense. As such, "flashbacks" are added in as with other data (these items are usually given some reference date for the audience anyway, making it easy to fit in). The timeline article should NOT be used for plotting continuity errors and the like. If an item has a bad fit, it should be placed in [[Continuity errors (RDM)]] in a special subsection (with a reference link on the central timeline article). The biggest problem with this article (aside from oversized episode summaries) is the fanwanking we do to try to get things to fit. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:45, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Citation===
Timeline entries ''must'' cite their sources, or when no source is available, provide or link to concise argumentation that takes into account all reasonable viewpoints (excluding patent fanwankery). How should this be done?
*Using citation templates would create a very long and complicated "notes" section, but would have the advantage of making organization easier.
*Alternatively, we could link to small articles in the Sources namespace, such as "Sources:Dates for Exodus, Part II" or "Sources:Exodus, Part II (Timeline)". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Reference notes are best handled here for extended notes, but usually an episode cite should be fine. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Consistency===
I believe that before we allow modification to existing rationalle, we should allow a reasonable window for debate (one week?) and that after modifications are made, they should be immediately promulgated to other articles which cite this one (including [[survivor count]], and the battle chronology). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Question on consistency - why are some timeline entries italicized and others not? [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 12:56, 26 December 2006 (CST)
::It looks like it started as entries with a footnote were italicized, though that only holds for the first couple entries. However, I would think that the footnote itself is sufficient indication that the entry has a footnote, and would lean towards "unitalicizing" the italicized entries (unless there's some other reason for the italics). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:08, 26 December 2006 (CST)
:::Originally the italics were to be a flag to a continuity error, but maybe there is a more marked way (an icon?) to do it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===First Revision Complete===
I've heavily concised the timeline, removing guesses and unestablished date stamps, removing unnecessary or excessive episode narrative, moving about special notes and adding a reference section. This brought the article from around 56KB to 39KB, so there is much left to do, thus the cleanup tag. The latter section should be truncated or moved to another article, if the Continuity Errors article doesn't already have this information. We should try to complete cleanup before season 3 resumes. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Two suggestions: 
1.) Removing the part about predictions that haven't come true. Not needed at all IMO. 
2.) Creating a new article called "Colonial Dates", "Colonial Dating Scheme" or something along that line, moving those paragraphs there and linking to it. 
--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:44, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Good ideas. I'll look into it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:12, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I agree with both suggestions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:44, 26 December 2006 (CST)

::Done. [[Colonial calendar]] breaks up the information. The past predictions data is already scattered about episode summaries and the like, and has been deleted. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

== I propose to shift "Lay Down Your Burdens Parts I & II" over about 10 days. ==

Why? Because I doubt very much that Sharon Agathon on losing her baby on day 270 (so she thought) and strongly suspecting Adama, Roslin, Cottle or all three of "killing" her she would be in any mood to help the colonials at that time no matter how much she wants to fit in. She may recover quickly physically for such a mission, we saw proof of that with her recovering very quickly after being bombarded with radiation in [[The Passage]], but psychologically I don't think she will bounce back as much. Indeed, in the Raptor on its way to Caprica she was still in morning. I would think that it would be at least a week for Helo to get her to agree to such a mission given her state of mind emotionally. Therefore I believe the anchor date of the mission starting should be day 280 and not day 270. This would give some realistic daylight and distance from the trauma of her loosing her baby and later agreeing to go on the mission. It will also still be in keeping with Tom Zarek's statement about the colonies being couped up in metal boxes for nine months. He may not be talking ''exactly'' nine months. If the elapsed time was really nine months and a fortnight it still would be within the human norm of estimation. Tyrol could start having his nightmares on day 266 instead of 256. Everything else can also be shifted over seven to ten days and not interfere with the beginning of settlement of New Caprica which is guesstimated to have started on day 300. Again the justification is that I doubt very much that Sharon Agathon would be in a state of mind to help the Colonials immediately after her baby dying and suspecting she was murdered. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 20:29, 2 January 2007 (CST)
:Some space is reasonable to assume here. I would only strive to ensure that all references to "nine months" fall within a +/-14 day span of the actual day 270. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:32, 3 January 2007 (CST)

==Another Colonial Date in "Precipice"==
Remember in "Hero" where we saw several dates of Adama's with a Colonial dating system? Well I was looking at the premiere, and in the Execution Forms Baltar signs the date for that day is given:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7797/datejr5.jpg

"'''Second Day of 3454-91'''"...Just thought you might want to know. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:18, 13 January 2007 (CST)

== Split Idea ==

To long. To much of a headache. Spliting this into a series is only best... [[Timeline - Season 1 (RDM)]].. etc. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:07, 2 February 2007 (CST)
: Probably the best idea for this article. However, the [[Timeline (RDM)]] article should remain as an overview of important dates, with the more detailed breakdowns in the [[Timeline - Season 1 (RDM)]], [[Timeline - Season 2 (RDM)]], and [[Timeline - Season 3 (RDM)]] pages. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 02:09, 3 February 2007 (CST)

:Agreed. Leave this page as disambiguation and to present the general idea (as well as the pre-Miniseries timeline) and then link to the sub-pages --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:53, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::I concur. This ideas show allow us to keep this page clean and straightforward with mininum discussion about timeline anomalies. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:57, 14 February 2007 (CST)

::Has this page lost its way? Towards the beginning it seems to only catalog events that can be time indexed. Towards the end of it seems more like almost like high-level episode summary. This seems redundant (outside of helping to capture where flashback events take place in the overall timeline). Maybe it's just a matter of trimming down the later summaries to fewer bullets. I'm not exactly sure what bugs me about it... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:01, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::I somewhat agree. The increasing level of detail in the summaries has been nagging me too. I just think it's unnecessary to repeat every tiny plot point --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::Absolutely agreed. When I was shepherding this article, I tried to keep summaries pithy and focused on relevant details, but later contributors have not followed suit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:51, 14 February 2007 (CST)

:So, is still split still going to happen? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:03, 19 February 2007 (CST)
::Yep. Go ahead and do it my son. :-D [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:05, 19 February 2007 (CST)
:::Ok dad. Will do it tomorrow. I should have gone to bed two hours ago :( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:07, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Done \o/ Anything left to do here? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:09, 20 February 2007 (CST)

== Ancient history ==

"2,000 years BCH: The remaining Twelve Tribes leave Kobol"

I contest this point. The THIRTEEN tribes left Kobol 2,000 years ago (for the Colonies.) The THIRTEENTH tribe also left Kobol 4,000 years ago (for Earth, but then they, or somebody else, wound up back at Kobol to restart the cycle.) A plausible inference is that the thirteenth tribe is all twelve tribes together.

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, on the order of approximately 2,000 years.

Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.

So, in any case, it's THIRTEEN tribes, not twelve tribes, 2,000 years BCH.

--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 16:33, 21 February 2007 (CST)

:We shouldn't place too much importance in one line by one character. The date was somewhat retconned later. Previously we believed that everyone left Kobol around the same time, but for different destinations. Then they placed dates reaching further back. I don't see the need to create complicated theories because of that. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:52, 21 February 2007 (CST)
::[[BW:OC|*coughaskbradleythompsoncough*]] --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:17, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Serenity, what you're saying is that it's more likely that you are correct than that Elosha is correct. I have my money on Elosha, no offense. And the dates were "retconned?!" Cha, as if. You simply don't understand the truth.
--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 08:25, 27 February 2007 (CST)
:I just believe in Occam's Razor, which states the most simplest explanation is more likely to be correct. And I don't think every bit of information, be it visual or from dialogue should be taken as absolute, holy writ. It's just a TV show. Your theory might be nice, but it's more something for forums, as it's very speculative. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:19, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Adama meeting Saul ==

Adam and Saul have said on several occasions that they've known each other for 30 years. Why does this article say they met 20 years before the attacks? Shouldn't it be 30?

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2007-06-17T20:42:15Z

Zethon: /* Count */

If this episode has been dropped so Resurrection can be split into two, then aren't we still missing an episode? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 00:06, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Yes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:: I've heard new rumors that this ISN'T the Cylon POV episode; that this episode covers the fate of Galactica-Sharon, but the "totally" Cylon POV episode was another one entirely. There may be hope yet. Besides, I think at the least Lawless has actually filmed scenes for it; I don't know if the one that was scrapped ever went past script phase.

:::RDM says in the downloaded that this '''is''' the cylon POV episode. Plus, theres no time left for one this season, the season finale starts next week. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 17:52, 26 February 2006 (EST)

However, new developments: I got a link to a scan of the February edition of Scifi Magazine, in which they answer questions from the official messageboard: http://pics.livejournal.com/reedfem/pic/0008a1hf ---->I can't tell if Grace Park is being SARCASTIC or if she was serious. (BTW, like 5 of these questions are from me, notably the Blade Runner one, the Geena Davis one, and the "new evil Sharon?" one). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:51, 5 December 2005 (EST)
::For those interested, the full set of scans can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/reedfem/158883.html?page=1 --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:34, 5 December 2005 (EST)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I saw a copy of Simon in the cafe on Caprica. I'm removing the "possibly archival footage" thing. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:24, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:They're saying it was a body double on TWOP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::It's possible it might have been a different actor. What does TWOP stand for? --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)

This episode was very good. I have one problem with it: Not Enough Leoben Conoy. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I was suprised we didn't see him on Caprica. I mean, they even had Simon (or at least who I believe is Simon).

:Someone claimed Leoben was on Caprica: where? I did not see him, though I will rewatch it. I will delete this info until it can be confirmed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:58, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::You're totally right... he wasn't there. Not sure why, but he wasn't. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::The TWOPers found a body double wearing his miniseries costume [http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9672/cap0118pd.png here]. ([http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3136156&view=findpost&p=4607381 link to post]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 25 February 2006 (EST)
*He was there. He walked by 6 several times, and was sitting in the cafe. You don't see his face because they couldn't get the actor. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 01:15, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Blade Runner reference
I about fell off the couch when the cylons were referred to as "skin jobs"--George w chomsky

:Trust me, they know that we know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Is it really Apollo in the picture of the Galactica crew that Sharon holds in her appartment? Because it's so small I can't be sure. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:30, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Yes, it is Apollo. The picture is from a scene of the episode "[[Water]]", after Boomer found water and returned to ''Galactica''. Practically this picture cannot exist. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 16:27, 20 January 2007 (CST)

Can we get Roslin's "if I wanted to airlock a baby..." comment in the dialogue section? (both for its hilarity and the likelihood of it coming up later) I'd do it myself but I don't have a tape for the exact wording. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 14:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Added that quote. Maybe these two questions should be added as well, but I'd like to know how others think about it: - Why did Roslin eventually decide to have the baby adopted instead of killing it? Why Was Baltar not notified of the baby being kept alive? Roslin never shared her suspicions of Baltar being a Cylon sympathizer. Were Admiral Adama and Col. Tigh even notified of this? --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 16:26, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Check the Analysis sections: Roslin has no real "evidence" against Baltar, so she's not going to bring her suspicions into the open yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:48, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::That's my point, really. Roslin didn't even inform her vice-president. Even if she's doing it because of the presidential elections it wouldn't make sense, because Baltar seems opposed to abortion (and so he could use the accusation of Roslin being a baby killer against her).... --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 06:01, 26 February 2006 (EST)
:::Actually, I think Roslin didn't tell Baltar far more because she suspects he's involved with the Cylons, than because she's worried about the election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:59, 2 March 2006 (CST)

After viewing the episode I have one serious question, where did they get a "fake" baby to fool Sharon 2 and Helo? A parent would notice if the body wasn't their own child. While a friend of mine suggested body used was resultant of the offscreen abortion from "The Captains Hand", this wouldn't work, as that fetus was only 4 months along, and would have been far less developed, and only 1/3rd the size (approx.) of baby Hera. Is their a master Wax Sculpter somewhere in the fleet?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:I don't think there's a canonical answer yet (and there may never be one). Some people have speculated that they use the baby of Hera's new adoptive mother (who mentioned that she had recently lost a child). At any rate, I think at this point they're all guesses (though the [[fumarella leaf]] origami theory hasn't gained much headway recently). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:22, 2 March 2006 (CST)

==Lucy Lawless character's name==
Last episode, she was "D'Anna Biers"; this episode we find out that her Cylon name is "Number Three". In dialog, she actually constantly refers to herself as "Three" "Number Three", etc. (well, they don't actually say "Number" aloud, but still). The scifi.com episode guide credits her for "Downloaded" as "D'Anna" but I think that's just miscommunication/they're easing into calling her "Number Three". Either way, I think we here on the wiki consider her "Number Three" now more because A) it is cooler, B) individual Cylons can have fake human names, but this refers to the individual, not the model. I.e. "Galactica-Three" = D'anna, but other Threes do not. Thoughts?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:42, 2 March 2006 (CST)
: I see you noticed my change. :) My thought on this was that we should refer to the specific character (i.e. the model with Galactica's fleet) as D'anna. ALl others should be Three or Number Three (the single number would bemore preferable). I liked how in the beginning of the episode synopsis she is referred to by her "D'anna" guise, but as soon as we find out her model number, she's referred to by that exclusively. It lets our reader know that THIS was the moment of change. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 14:53, 2 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, that's what I intended when I wrote it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:55, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:::An excellent plan... [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 15:00, 2 March 2006 (CST)

== Cars inside the parking lot ==

About the cars parked on the building, one of them is a DS, of course, but I think that the one that is seen on the left when you see the parking the first time is a Citroen SM. You can compere the car on the movie (21:15 inside the chapter, without commercials) with this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_P6 and this other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_SM. As you can see, P6 wing is narrower on the side that is close to the front door. Front doors of both cars are very similar, of course. There is another car at the right of the DS, parked in a shadow zone, that could be the P6, but I'm not sure. you can have a better look at it at 24:48. About the 3 headlamp thingie (4 cars parked there?) I don't remember to have seen it on the citroen prototype pictures I have seen (you can see a lot of them at http://62.95.94.132/gallery/Citroen-Conservatoire). Front side of the car looks like VW Beetle. Of course there was a Citroen 2CV prototype with central headlamp, but it has only one headlamp, not three. --[[User:citroengs|Joaquin Gallardo]] 0:43, 3 March 2006 (CET)

The 3 headlamp vehicle seems most likely to ba a Tatra 87 as displayed here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_(car)

Perhaps they thought that if there were European cars they would look Alien! --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 14:22, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:That's not too far from the [[Podcast:Downloaded#Act 2|truth]]. They sort of got the idea from GATTACA. (It's nice to be able to cite a transcribed podcast). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:36, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== Sharon is handcuffed to the resurrection tub ==

Did you notice that sharon is actually handcuffed to the resurrection tub, while number six is not?--Thomask77
:Yes, most likely because Sharon was a sleeper agent and they thought she'd take the shock of downloading and being a Cylon a little bad....which, what with all the screaming, is exactly what happened. She could have done more danage if not restrained. Makes sense entirely, not a goof.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:58, 3 March 2006 (CST)

==Cylons and Age==
Philwelch writes:
:Based on the assumption that model number corresponds with age, Leoben Conoy — whose age is close to that of D'anna Biers — is probably Number Two or Number Four, while Simon is likely either Number Four or Number Seven.

I removed this because I don't consider this a productive or interesting line of questioning - we just don't have enough data to make that age assumption. If it turns at that Brother Cyvill is #2 or something, then your argument would be bolstered enough to revisit (in my opinion), but at present, we really have no reason to believe it. Cylon copies are clearly created fully grown anyway - if they wanted to make a copy of #11 as an old man, it stands to reason that they could do it just as easily as making #6 a fully grown woman. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:31, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:The idea of Cylon model number corresponding with apparent age isn't anything I made up, it's plainly in the Analysis section already. If we already have that idea in the Analysis, I see no reason *not* to use it for further speculation. You're being inconsistent. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:50, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:As for "not enough data", as the Analysis says, Number Three is apparently older than Number Five, who appears older than Number Six, who appears older than Number Eight. That's four confirming data points. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:55, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::They are all fairly young, in their 20s and 30s. This does not indicate a strong correlation to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:52, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::And what if TPTB completely go against this speculative convention and cast a teenager as Number Two, or cast someone Dr. Cottle's age (or, worse, Dr. Cottle!) as Number Ten? Where will your theory stand? I don't see the Article Page as being the locale for speculation and conjecture... that's what this Talk page is for. Let the series unravel as the writers write it, and let's take it in enjoyably, rather than galavanting off on theories that are tentatively founded at best, and the writers are under no obligation to uphold. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::If we're not allowed to speculate, than let's go back and delete most of the Analysis and Questions sections. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 14:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)

: I think people are forgetting that we are talking about ''Cylons'' here, not humans. Age has nothing to do with it; being as that may, I honestly doubt the Cylons have a gerontocracy here. It is far more likely that the whole number scheme is what model was first off the production line, which makes logical sense from the Cylon POV. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:27, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::There's still *apparent* age--Boomer appears to be a 22-24 year old woman while Leoben Conoy appears to be in his late 30's. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:38, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::That doesn't make any difference at all. In fact, the actor who portrays Leoben Conoy (Number ?a) is the oldest of the KCA (Known Cylon Agents) at 45/46. The actor portraying Simon (Number ?b) is 38/39... and just months older than Lucy Lawless at 37/38 (and Lucy Lawless has a bod & appearance that can put most 22-year-olds to shame). So, based on your theory, that ''forces'' the storyline to put Leoben Conoy at Number 2 (or 1) and Simon at ... wow. Will you look at that? Where ''do'' you put Simon in this, based on the idea that he's older than Number 3?
:::I'm not saying that you're/we're ''not allowed'' to speculate, I'm just of the emphatic opinion that it's counterproductive and unnecessary. This isn't "our" series, it's the writers' series, to do with as they warrant. I don't think half of the Analysis and Questions material on the episode pages should be there, but the moderators of this Wiki feel it should be there, so who am I to defy them? The basis of the Wiki is to make sure the information is '''''right''''', not who is right first, whether in speculation or fact. And, the only source of "right-ness" is the writers... and they don't feel it necessary to divulge this information yet. No amount of speculation, conjecture, or deduction on our parts is going to change that. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:11, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon Models Present on Caprica ==

I removed the following entry/question from the Question section:
: Why does Caprica only have 4 cylon models on it? Would you not expect all 12 models to be cohabitating the planet?

Firstly, the question in and of itself is incorrect, because there are 5 models seen (in fact, RDM insinuates that all 6 models are visible by using computer-generated-effects projections and composites of the two actors who could not be in attendance for the episode's shooting). Secondly, RDM goes into great length to explain that it would incise into the storyline's drama and tension to reveal the other six models of Cylon on Caprica. He concedes that it doesn't make much sense to ''not'' see all twelve models, but that it is ultimately a writer's/producer's decision for the good of the story/show. Thirdly, and with that point in mind, it is not our place to explain or conject why the other six models are not present — it might be revealed later in following episodes, or it may never be — since any answer on our parts is either unfounded, speculative, or flat-out wrong. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:37, 6 March 2006 (CST)

I noticed in the background a white male, with a bald head. As we do not currently know of a Cylon that is bald this adds a little bit of possible speculation. Just something to think about. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No, that was just bad lighting/glare.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 10 March 2006 (CST)

You sure about that? Hmmm, I'll have to watch the episode again, and pay more closer attention. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 00:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)

I just listened to the podcast for "Downloaded," Ron Moore confirms that it's a Simon (whichever number that is). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 19:08, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Count ==

I noticed the survior count has not increased at all in either this episode or Lay Down your Burdens Part I. What's up with the baby? She doesn't count?
:Cylon's don't get counted, as has been previously established, and everyone but Helo and Baltar clearly consider the baby a Cylon.--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 16:25, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::That's probably true, but then technically the Survivor Count should have gone down by one after "[[Final Cut]]" after it was revealed that Biers was a Cylon agent and not a human survivor.
:::How do we know it ever included her in the first place? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::The survivor count doesn't go down for civilians the Fleet doesn't know are Cylons, does it? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 08:40, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::The count shown during the opening credits mirrored the count on the whiteboard, up until the point where Baltar removed it from his office in LDYB II. Therefore if Roslin's folk didn't know about D'anna Biers' being a Cylon then that wouldn't be reflected in the count. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:50, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Music ==

Does anyone know the music that Sharon is listening to when Number Six shows up at her apartment on Caprica?