Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-18T16:57:05Z

Zahir: /* Not ANOTHER Commander! */

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

File talk:Starbucks at starbucks.jpg

2006-01-30T16:28:44Z

Zahir:

OMG! Thank you for sharing! [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:28, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Black Market/Archive 1

2006-01-29T16:00:06Z

Zahir: /* Baltar's Treason */

==Analysis==
The criticism here needs to be toned down drastically. I personally enjoyed this episode much more than I had been expecting to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)
: I don't know exactly how to feel about this episode. Honestly, it wasn't all that bad -- it could have been much better executed, however. I can't really disagree with any of the critisms leveled at this episode, primarily because I hold them to be evident as well. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:45, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::I'm in agreement, the analysis section does need to be toned down a little. Some of the criticisms are totally justified, while other parts seem unduly harsh. It wasn't a great episode but despite its flaws in did tell an interesting story. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 10:12, 28 January 2006 (EST)

I've edited this article heavily to concise it from its overly play-by-play format, but it could still see a more concising eye. I've also toned down the analysis to provable (i.e., non-subjective) points of the episode, deleting redundant or highly subjective commentary. There was too much personal bias in the story, reading more like a review than an analysis. Despite the small story in this episode, this article is quite weighty than the others. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:50, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Thank you for editing down my Analysis. Sometimes it's hard to do a write up, so I just let myself rant, and acutally ''hoped'' that others would heavily edit it down to something more concise, depending one whether they agreed or not. I was just getting the ball rolling. Thanks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:57, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:I was about to say, the summary seems a bit lengthy. It's supposed to be a summary, not a play-by-play. I admire the fact the Noteworthy Dialogue's have been shorter lately, focusing on critical stuff. Thanks for the edit, but I still think its overly detailed. Read the summaries for "33" and "Water" and see that they focus on what happens during the episode and not why or reasoning. I feel like i'm reading an essay rather then a description, but thats just me. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:10, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::That's simply because there hasn't been as much quotable stuff in the past two episodes, while a LOT of Res Ship I and II was quoteable. Yeah, it was a little long but I was just trying to hurry and get it all on before I had to turn my computer off. I don't normally do summariies, besides; the plot was really confusing and took quite a few twists and turns. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:08, 28 January 2006 (EST)
:::Whoa, look at that summary. I saw an earlier version this morning, and its better now, but its still exceptionally long when compared to other episodes. Someone needs to take to it with a flaming chainsaw. I'd do it, but I am somewhat unsure of how much would be too much, as Ricimer is correct - it was a complicated episode. Does anyone really like it the way it is now, or can I go in there and edit it? Remember, it can always be reverted. I'd rather shorten it too much, and then have us realize that some points were exceptionally important and replace them, then leave it too long with unimportant points left in. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:18, 28 January 2006 (EST)

: I actually pared it down a bit, and made it more chronologically correct. Any hint of analysis or reasoning in the Summary's content is not my doing -- I try to keep a very sterile "This happened, then that" approach in writing. I'm sure that a few "steps" can be condensed further, but looking it over at this point, it looks like it describes what transcended fairly well. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)

== Regular vs. Guest Star ==
I noticed that someone edited this and said that they "included Leah Cairns (Racetrack)" as a Guest Star. At what point are characters considered "regulars" versus just being a spot-on "guest star"? Personally, I consider characters like Racetrack, Cat, and Hot Dog as regulars by now, albeit in the minor, second-tier category. They are existing in the "Wedge factor"... or, to put it better, they are in that role that [[Boomer (TOS)|Boomer]] and [[Jolly (TOS)|Jolly]] held in The Old Series -- that of a regularly re-occuring peripheral character that the fan can follow, and aren't getting killed off every episode like the Star Trek "Redshirt". -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 10:50, 28 January 2006 (CST)

:There are seven regulars - Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Jamie Bamber, Katee Sakhoff, and Grace Park. They are contracted on a per-season basis. Everyone else is a guest star, paid on a per-episode basis. There are two types of guest star - those listed during the opening of Act 1, after the intro sequence, and those listed in the credits at the end of the episode. I'm not entirely sure what the difference is, but the larger roles tend to be the ones listed earlier. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:It's a bit of a grey area; officially, there are 7 "regular cast" members, as stated above. There's also "recurring characters", in legalize, these are "guest stars" that appear in most episodes. Case in point, Colonel Tigh has been in every episode but ins't counted as a main cast member (something to do with salaries, etc) and Chief Tyrol has appeard in all but two episodes (he grew more as they went along), so he's kind of also a recurring character too. Cally kind of also grew into that, as well. So the line between "regular" and "recurring" is blurry for Col. Tigh and Tyrol. Similarly, there is a blurry line between "guest" and "recurring". Several "guest" characters reappear more than once (Elosh, Dr. Cottle, Cain and Fisk I guess). Meanwhile, Kat and Hot Dog were originally intended as one-shot guests, but according to the DVD commentary, RDM was surprised that other writers would then script them in whenever "another pilot" was required, and they've been building up Kat. Likewise, Racetrack was just a "guest" but I think has advanced to "recurring" becase of all the character development she got in Final Cut and Flight of the Phoenix and she's also appeared alot. At any rate, there's a blurry line and it's really subjective.
:That said, I do want to add "Helo and Tyrol do not appear in this episode" to the notes for easy referrence, because even though they aren't "regulars", they have each only missed one maybe two episodes before this. Tyrol wasn't in "Home, Part I", and Helo wasn't in "Fragged". So I think that makes it significant enough to put down there.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13:33, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::BSG also makes the distinction of "co-stars" which appear at the beginning of Act 1 but without the heading of "Guest Star" that all the other guest stars do. I think Racetrack, Kat, and Hot Dog are still listed as actual guest stars, though. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:26, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::I still disagree. There's no expectation that guest characters like Helo and Tyrol will appear in every episode, so their absence here is really unremarkable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:00, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Given that both of them have each appeared in all but one of the previous episodes, I would actually find it ''quite'' remarkable. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:06, 28 January 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Treason ==
Seems to me there's a lot of "jumping the gun" vis-a-vis Baltar. For one thing, he did not knowingly have anything to do with the Cylon attack. While his actions were unethical, he clearly had no intention of committing genocide. He was a dupe in that respect. Nor is there any reason for the President to think him working with the Cylons on the basis of his having been with '''Six''' prior to the attack unless she also had some motive for believing he knew this woman to be a Cylon (which he did not). If confronted with this fact, he can (with complete honesty even) say: "Madame President, no less than two crewmembers of the Galactica fell in love with a Cylon. So did I. I admit this. And, like them, I did not know she was a Cylon. Nor can I say in total candor my feelings for the woman I knew are not still...tender. As well as not a little bit confused. This was not a matter I would share willingly. But if you examine the facts, you will realize it likely I was neither the first, the tenth, or even the hundredth human being to be so deceived by the nature of our enemy."

She may think him a selfish, unethical wild card (and I'd agree). She may dislike him personally and think he'd best be as far from any kind of political power as possible. That seems to me totally reasonable. But what reason has anyone to think he's an actual traitor? A Cylon himself? Ah, that would at least make some sense, as far as suspicions go. But how to prove it? And besides, what if he isn't? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 12:21, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:You're also talking about a woman who had an epiphany during a very traumatic situation, and like most of the people in the Fleet, Laura is human...and humans make mistakes. She might be "on the ball" in every way when it comes to her work as President, but her dislike of Baltar is on a personal level, and personal feelings, no matter how much people try to prevent it, will come into play in other aspects of their dealing with the situation. I suspect that will crystalize more as we go towards the season finale.

:There is also the fact that while Baltar may have been a dupe in the beginning, he's cleaning perilously close to the pit of darkness now, and today's dupe may well end up being season three's traitor.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 19:34, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::RDM notes in his podcast for ''Epiphanies'' and implies in his podcast for ''Black Market'' that it was his intention that the viewer understand Roslin's reaction in ''Epiphanies'' as her realization that Baltar "had something to do with it." "It" being the Cylon Attack. Whether RDM pulled that off or not is, of course, up to the viewer. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:39, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Regardless, she doesn't have physical "evidence" against him, so acting on what she remembered might be harder to do. --'''''[[User_talk:Ricimer|Ricimer]]''''' 20:11, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::::Not to mention that in a case of law, it's merely "he said, she said". Yeah, few in the fleet like him, and they'd probably love to bounce him out the first airlock sans space suit, but as long as they have courts, laws and a (slightly flagging) desire for order, he's got the law on his side.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 03:53, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Baltar could even confirm every single fact Roselyn might offer, yet still realistically claim innocence. The simple facts are that, while there is something fishy going on, no one has any real evidence that Baltar is guilty of anything. And I still suspect he's going to end up in a real sense saving the day--because life is like that. Some of the greatest leaders have had repellant qualities while sometimes those with nothing but good intentions really frak things up. Besides, look at it this way. This war has only three possible ends: (1) Humanity is wiped out, very possible. (2) The Cylons are wiped out, highly unlikely. (3) Cylons and Humans find a way to share the universe. Between them, Baltar seems to be working for option number three.

Talk:Sacred Scrolls/Archive 1

2006-01-29T07:16:04Z

Zahir: /* Cycle of Time */

Greetings, Jzanjani. I welcome you to the battlestar wiki and want you to know that I appreciate your desire to contribute here. However, your edits to this article baffle me. At present, it has been meticulously arranged to provide the most comprehensive information possible in an objective, well-cited manner with separate sections for interpretation and commentary. If you feel this layout is mistaken, or that there's information which needs to be incuded in this article which we've missed, I would like you to make your case here, on the talk page, before comitting another revision. Thank you for your consideration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:03, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==On the Format of Character Quotes==

I think we should agree on a standard format for character quotes. If you look up similar pages to this one on other Wiki databases, for example [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Babylon_5 this one] on Babylon 5, you can see they have a much more attractive quote format. Personally, I find the following quote format to be most attractive:

:"That thing put two rounds into my father's chest!" - ''[[Lee Adama|Captain Lee "Apollo" Adama]], "[[Home, Part I]]"''

or, more directly:

:<tt>Indent, Double Quote, QUOTATION, /Double Quote, dash, italic, NAME, comma, Double Quote, EPISODE, /Double Quote, /italic</tt>

I'm not sure if this comment should be somewhere else, but I think the Sacred Scrolls article in particular could definitely use some cleanup. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 16:08, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:31, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I would be extatic if you'd post this comment for discussion on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] project page. That's really the best place to discuss such sweeping things.

:: As for using that format here, I don't think it would do for multiple-character exchanges, such as are seen in this article. That format would be fine, though, for, say, the Quote of the Day. That's under discussion at Standards and COnvention, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:34, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==Cycle of Time==
I'm just a little surprised that folks haven't made a correlation between the whole idea of the "Cycle of Time" and another popular science fiction series--Lexx! From the very first movie of that series, the Time Prophet played an important role. The Time Prophet says that the Universe goes through cycles, repeating itself endlessly. She sees the future, not by looking forward, but by looking back into the distant past to previous cycles (but "not clearly"). At one point, Stanley (the incredible loser who is the "hero" of Lexx) comes across a recording from thousands of years ago that the Time Prophet left for him, telling precisely how to get out of the terrible situation he was in at that moment. Likewise, the Time Prophet told the great warrior Kai that the last of his people would one day overthrow a tyrant (His Divine Shadow), but that he himself would be the last of them to fall, murdered by that same tyrant. Weirdly, that is precisely what happened. She says "Time begins and then time ends, and then time begins once again.
It is happening now, it has happened before, it will surely happen again." Sound kinda familiar? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 19:37, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Actually a lot of shows do that, i.e. Bablyon 5, others, etc. and it's nothing new; Lexx wasn't very original with that.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:13, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: The idea of time in eternal cycles certainly is not an original one, as noted in the article. But where was that even hinted at on Babylon 5? Or, for that matter, any other science fiction show? Well, there was a hint of it on Red Dwarf once. Really, I'm curious. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 02:16, 29 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Sacred Scrolls/Archive 1

2006-01-29T00:37:58Z

Zahir:

User:Zahir

2006-01-28T23:20:22Z

Zahir:

[[Image:Zahir sigil.jpg|thumb|Sigil of Zahir]]
Hello. 

Zahir is the name. Well, not my real name, but my nom-de-net 

What to say about myself? Well, I'm a sagittarius born in the year of the boar (make of that what you will). I live in Los Angeles. My BA is in theatre arts. My fiancee died in November, 2005 (she designed my sigil which you see) and no, I am not recovered from that. I am a fraternal twin.

The original Battlestar Galactica was for me a fun piece of fluff with some nice touches. Having been a science fiction fan most of my life (watched ''Star Trek'' when it first aired--ohdearjustgaveawaymyage) it was some much-enjoyed entertainment amid a desert. The interim since then has seen a much higher standard arise, as a direct result of shows like Blake's Seven and Farscape as well as Babylon 5 and Firefly. The new BG is meeting that standard very nicely indeed.

One other thing to mention. Well, two. I am in particular a fan of space opera--starting way back with Doc Smith's Lensmen series and up through David Brin's Uplift, Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga and Alister Reynolds' very impressive trilogy-plus-one. I am writing my own in fact. Wish me luck!

[[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 18:20, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Number Eight/Archive 1

2006-01-28T17:45:12Z

Zahir: /* Ragnar Valerii */

== Was Sharon a real person, once? ==

Caprica Boomer notes that humano-Cylons are not wired into each other's brains, so they don't share knowledge directly. However, she was aware of events in the fleet, which means some level of data from Galactica Boomer was received. She also recollects to Starbuck on the first time they met in the Delphi Museum. Could the Sharon that Starbuck knew was a real human, her consciousness cloned into a series of Cylon copies? Food for thought. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:52, 22 Aug 2005 (EDT)

No. Baltar's Cylon detector showed that she physically was not not a human (I forget how exactly the detector works; something like the artificial, silicon based cells of humanoid Cylons can't hold up to radiation to well and after prolonged exposure degenerate a little). They still have to explain to us the exact nature of the humanoid Cylons, but it is apparent that they aren't fully biological creatures: I think they're made of synthetic chemicals bases (silicon, etc) and they have Silica Relays running through their body; I mean they can transmit their consciousness and thoughts over vast distances just using whatever's in their brain.
Are *ANY* of the humanoid Cylons based on real people? We don't know. But the Galactica-Boomer was definately not an original. -- Ricimer, 11 Sept, 2005.

: I'm betting that Gaius was real -- [[Gaius Baltar#Speculation: The Real Baltar?|once]]. :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

::RDM said in that interview from thefandom.com that "there was never an original 'Sharon Valerii'" so I think that settles it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:04, 6 November 2005 (EST)

:::It has indeed, and the Twelve Models page is now moot. Answer moved to main Humano-Cylon page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]

== Keeping Track of the Valeriis ==

I recommend that we use "Boomer" as the name of the now-dead Galactica copy we first encounter in the mini-series in the article as applicable. The Caprica version can be "Sharon Valerii" or "Valerii" provided that the context where the copy is found is made clear in that part of the article. Remember that Galactica's crew doesn't see the Caprica copy as "Boomer" and we shouldn't call her as such. I've also broken up the text here to make reading and information easier to find. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:20, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

:Problematic. Although only the Galactica copy is properly "Boomer", both of them are Sharon Valerii. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

::That it is. But it is worse to use "Boomer" for all of the copies, and since it may be a cold day in hell before Adama allows any Valerii copy to fly again in the service of the Colonials, using the callsign is inappropriate as "Boomer" is dead. Hopefully we won't find any more Valeriis to disambiguate. I'm trying to treat things as we did the Ellen Tigh/Saul Tigh matter. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

=== Disambig? ===

Actually, how about creating an article for each of the two major Valerii's -- [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]], for instance -- and using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/information page for the Valerii model line? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:05, 6 November 2005 (EST)

*I am unsure that that would be the best option. Perhaps by the end of season 3 we might make that choice, but that's 30 episodes from now. Right now, I just think they should be under one article, though it is a valid point. --->On top of this, we keep calling them "Galactica-Boomer" and "Caprica-Boomer". Someone then pointed out that we shouldn't call "Caprica-Boomer" 'Boomer' because it's a military callsign and she was never ''really'' in the military. However, I feel that originally this was a wise choice because Helo ''thought'' she was "Boomer" as she was ''posing'' as Galactica-Boomer. Also, we need to check if anyone calls her "Boomer" anymore after she is brought to ''Galactica''. Anyway, I approve of the prevailing tendency to refer to her post-"Home" as "Caprica-Sharon"--->Regardless, we have indeed encountered a problem now that we have this information from RDM: "Caprica-Sharon" is now on ''Galactica'', and "Galactica-Sharon" is now going to wake up in a new body on or near Caprica. We '''cannot''' refer to them as "Boomer 1" and her counterpart "Boomer 2" because that would imply that "Galactica-Boomer is the "original", and she is not; RDM said there is ''no'' "original", and "Caprica-Sharon" has equal claim to this. Perhaps we could use "Boomer 1" and "Boomer A"--->no, wait, that would be only more confusing. In addition to this, there are also other 'generic' "evil" standard-Cylon Sharons, like the one introduced at the end of "Final Cut". Maybe we could use the less-often prefered nomenclature: "Tyrol-Boomer" for Chief Tyrol's Boomer (Galactica-Boomer) and "Helo-Boomer" for the one that got impregnated by Helo ("Caprica-Boomer"). Of course, there is always the possibility of some crazy soap-opera love triangle and Tyrol falling for Caprica-Boomer because he thinks Galactica-Boomer is dead only to find that Galactica-Boomer has become the new Caprica-Boomer leading to a tense standoff with the standard Caprica-Six who is taking orders from Baltar-Six the angel of God who is in turn having a love triangle with Pegasus-Six a.k.a. Gina who will be supplied with a nuclear weapon and Raptor by Galactica-Jammer which will be preceded by Cally-Selix being outed by Galactica-D'Anna when in fact she is not a Cylon throwing blame off of Galactica-D'Anna even as Caprica-D'Anna is trying to indoctrinate Galactica-Caprica-Galactica Boomer into the Cylon religion only to be saved by Anders but not before being impregnated with Starbuck's missing egg cells. This could take a while. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:53, 6 November 2005 (EST)

:Wow. Wow. Wow. WOW. Ricimer. Good LORD, man. There is some part loose in your head and I like it. Wow. Anyway, I actually kind of like the idea of sing Tyrol-Sharon (or, more properly, Tyrol-Valerii?) and Helo-Sharon (Agathon-Valerii? Ouch.). That's a bit odd, perhaps, to those of us who've been watching from the start, but what if someone missed the parts where Caprica-Sharon was on Caprica and so only know of this one that, as far as they know, has always been on ''Galactica''--and why the hell don't these wiki-morons get their facts straight about Galactica-Boomer and her pregnancy and all? ;) Or maybe we should call the one of them Preggers-Boomer or Mama-Boomer or something and the other, uh... Dead-Boomer or Sleeper-Boomer. Or maybe not. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 17 December 2005 (EST)

::I don't. Galactica-Valerii and Caprica-Valerii are still unambiguous, and with "Downloaded" indefinitely shelved, it appears they will remain that way. I find identifying them by their S.O.'s tasteless and no less confusing than our current system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:50, 17 December 2005 (EST)

*I think we should go with Joes idea and split the article with the Galactica/Caprica convention (though I have no problem with the Helo/Tyrol one either). If at some point in the series it becomes clear that a different convention makes more sense, we could change it then. Else we could be waiting a long time with one massive, confusing Valerii article (its only going to get bigger after all).--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 21:43, 28 December 2005 (EST)

====The Best Laid Plans, Sometimes Best Left Buried====

Four months, three new episodes, and [[Downloaded|a lot of Spoilers]] later, I feel that the time has come to disambiguate [[Galactica-Sharon]] and [[Caprica-Sharon]] into two separate characters pages, as Joe agreed. Obviously, following the model of the Humano-Cylon page, there will be "stubs" for Galactica and Caprica-Sharon on this page, leading to full articles (other models of Sharon, like the "The Hand of God" one, Ragnar copy, "Final Cut" copy, etc. will have their entire entry here (that is, just leave their info as is). I'll use the names "Galactica-Sharon" and "Caprica-Sharon" because those are the names which were ''not'' developed by me, but which developed ''ad hoc'' on the internet to tell the two apart (notably on Televisionwithoutpity, though I can tell you that it didn't ''start'' there, but on the messageboards for the show, etc.) Nextly, we aren't using "Caprica-Boomer", etc. because "Boomer" is a military callsign and after they found out she was a Cylon she wasn't part of their unit anymore. Come to think of it, I think they've ''never'' called her Boomer since Caprica-Sharon got to Galactica. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:14, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm inclined to agree with the split, (with the caveat that the articles should be located at [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica Copy)]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica Copy]]), along with the various Number Six identities, but I feel like I should point out one thing: None of the cylon characters have actually received more screen time than any human character. If their articles are so large and ungainly that they demand to be split, this cries out of summary and concision. We will not have this recourse with the human character articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::The two Boomers have each separetly had more development than several recurring characters; Cally, Racetrack, etc. Galactica-Boomer got about as much development as Tyrol, and Caprica-Boomer got about as much development as Helo, yet the experiences of each were unique. '''And the evidence speaks for itself'''; I mean just look at the article; quite a LARGE amount of information, for each separately, and you can see that they require no summary or concision. They've just both led...shall we say, "colorful"?...lives? That's kind of what makes "Sharon" one of the more intriguing characters. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:59, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I would also note that this is bound to generate some discussion and require some thought beforehand. We shouldn't jump the gun until we have broad consensus. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:24, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Truth. Yet this is a special case; it was already largely agreed that they ''should'' be separated, but it was decided to wait a while longer until they were known to be truly distinct characters (at the time, we were unaware of spoilers that Galactica-Sharon would come back and we thought she was dead for good. In light of this, I see the need as more pressing than ever). Many agreed ''already'' that this was the wiser choice. I want to get the ball rolling, let others play around with the idea to get used to it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::: I don't know that I agree with a split. I don't know that I ''disagree'' either, though. I just thought I'd post that I have some reservations. I don't have the time to look too closely at it right now, so I'll try to meditate on it and post an actual decision tonight (unless I'm too tired from work or something). --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:26, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm torn on a split because of the confusion that it can create. Yet at the same time, as time goes on, ALL of the character bio pages will become too large and cumbersome. Perhaps we should apply a process similar to what we did for the Cylon (RDM) and Twelve Colonies (RDM) pages--create a parent with child subarticles.
::::*A master page on the Valerii model that summarizes the model, VERY brief links to subarticles, and notes on other models encountered (minor or in-passing encounters).
::::*A series link that gives distinct subarticles for each major Valerii encountered (All two)

::::So the [[Sharon Valerii]] page is the parent, with [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica)]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Boomer)]] as subarticles. Another example, [[Number Six]] would be the parent, with [[Natasi]], [[Number Six (Virtual)]], [[Shelly Godfrey]] and [[Gina]] as subarticles.

::::This idea actually works better with Six (who has had four separate significant characters). For Colonials, we will have to look into something like this as well or severely truncate their bios over time as the show progresses. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Er, that's actually what I just suggested (the first option). The second option you listed is what we already do; have subarticles about the different copies. What I want is to do what we did on the humanoid Cylon page: brief description and a link, leading off to another article about that character in detail. My key point is that not ALL of them need their own pages, i.e. copies of Number Six with a "standard" personality don't need separate pages, just keep their info on the main page. I'm not sure of Natasi-Six and ChipSix are separate characers, though they probably are. Gina definately is, as is Shelley Godrey (I'm still not sure if she was a self-aware Six, or honestly acting out fake memories).--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:40, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::As there's been the call for a consensus, I'll put my two bits in: yes! I've been keen to see this for a while. Are we going to do the same with Conoy and Doral? (I wouldn't). As for Natasi and ChipSix, I think we should just have them in the main Number Six article, as they don't have different personalities and seperate articles would confuse. Also, I agree with Farago that the articles should be titiled like [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica Copy)]] and not [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica)]].--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 20:43, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::Some final thoughts - I would not like to see Doral and Conoy's articles sectioned off either, as there really isn't enough content to justify it. The main articles should be more than disambig pages, with notes on the model as a whole, perhaps borrowed from [[Humano-Cylon]] - which I feel probably ought to be deleted soon anyway, in favor of [[Cylon Models]], along with stubs for the articles with their own pages, and full discussions for less-notable copies (such as the overseer six models, or Ragnar Valerii). I would also like to use series boxes for Valerii and Six, and categories as well (which can also be subcategories of "Characters (RDM)"). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:49, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::Farago I think you are jumping to conclusions of brobdingnagian proportions. Our pages for Conoy and Doral are ''already'' sectioned off with subheadings. No, (dragging in the debate over humanoid Cylon nomenclature) I feel that humanoid Cylons and "Cylons" are distinct. We should do what we have done before. Have a main "Cylon" page, with a separate "Humanoid Cylon" or "Cylon Agent" or whatever page, on which there are short descriptions of the known models of the 12, and links to their pages. (EXACTLY what it already done now, simply changing the *title*). I don't know what you mean by "series boxes". If I could be permitted, I'd like to do a "test" example in the future of what I envision it as, so we can all more clearly see it. Basically, I just think that the TITLE of the existing humanoid Cylon article be changed, and that Caprica-Sharon, Galactica-Sharon, and Gina get their own articles. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:28, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::: Ricimer. The comment about Conoy and Doral was regarding sectioning their articles off into different ''pages''. I felt that was perfectly clear, but you seem to'vve misunderstood bother Peter's and Undc23's comments. They were both advocating no change to how those two articles stand now. Just thought I'd sum that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] 07:06, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Done! Hope everyone's happy with the results (if not, you can always say so or adjust it yourself). I will do the same to [[Number Six]] in a day or two, unless someone beats me to it.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:44, 27 January 2006 (EST)

==Ricimer's spoilers==

Ricimer, we need to link to that interview if we're going to cite it here. Is [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml this] the one? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:55, 6 November 2005 (EST)

:Yay, the very same. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:40, 6 November 2005 (EST)

== Why "Apparently 'Asian' Extraction"? ==

I glanced over a number of the human character bios (Helo, both Adamas, Starbuck, Roslin, and Dualla) and all the Humano-Cylon bios, and none of them make reference to their apparent Earth racial extractions. Why mention it for Sharon, much less put it at the top of the article? No one in the show talks about race (the closest they get to it is Colony reference, and Dualla and Zarek both being Saggitarons seems to nullify racial parallels). We're not even sure there were, or will be, any verified direct connection between the Earth races of today and Colonial humans. Unfortunately, the words "apparently 'Asian' extraction" come across more as an over-fixation on her Asian characteristics than anything else.

Could we get rid of the words? Or at least, in the interest of balance, make comparable comments in all the bios ("apparently 'Caucasian' extraction," "apparently 'African' extraction," etc.)? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:35, 9 November 2005 (EST)

:You have a point and couldn't make it more clear. Comments from the rest of the peanut gallery? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 November 2005 (EST)

::I say we nix the "apparent" note, the only significant and consistent physiological notes that have been made on characters have dealt with accents (ie. Baltar), not appearance. Racial origin should be left to the cast bios, if noted at all. Colonial heritage, IMHO, is what matters to this wiki. Señor Peanut: --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 21:01, 9 November 2005 (EST)

:::I wouldn't mind getting rid of it. We have [[Race and Ethnicity in the Twelve Colonies]] to talk about this stuff. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:47, 10 November 2005 (EST)

==Rank==
[[Image:Starbuckboomerinsignia.jpg|frame|Screen captures show that Starbuck, Boomer, and Helo all wear the same rank insignia. Helo is known to be a Lieutenant JG, Starbuck is almost definitely a full Lieutenant, and Boomer's status is disputed.]]
The article lists her as a Lieutenant JG, but according to [http://galactica.emedian.net/ep1.12.html these pictures] she wears the same rank insignia as Starbuck. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:38, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:Does anyone have a source on the Lt. J.G. business? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:46, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::Per Moore's blog entry, the rank seems to exist, and in the miniseries, Starbuck notes Helo's "flying with rooks", indicating that Boomer is a new pilot. Then again, by the time she's done with basic officer training and flight school she very well may have made it all the way up to full Lieutenant. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:11, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:::Kat is definitely an Lt. J.G., as per her caption in "[[Final Cut]]". Maybe someone can get a capture of her insignia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:16, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::::Boomer was a Lieutenant Junior Grade, because she was a new pilot and Lt. J.G. was the lowest officer rank (all pilots are officers). We knew Starbuck is a full Lieutenant because she's the highest ranking pilot after Apollo. I don't know what the frak you're talking about with these 'pictures'; you can't make out a clear shot of their rank insignia in any of them. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:59, 7 December 2005 (EST)

It's difficult but definitely possible if you look at enough. Besides, Ensign is the lowest officer rank (Ensign Davis is apparently infatuated with Crashdown in Season 1, and Ron Moore mentions the rank of Ensign in his blog post). Furthermore, the collar of Sharon's uniform jacket in "Water" gives her rank simply as "Lieutenant", not "Lieutenant Junior Grade". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Starbuck's insignia is visible in the picture where she's staring down Baltar. Sharon's is visible in one of the cockpit shots of her and Crashdown. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:OH come on, don't we all remember then endless rank-pip mix ups on ''Star Trek''?; in '''no way''' should we alter PRE-EXISTING biographical information due to insignia on their collars in a stray scene or two. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::Yeah, but we still need a ''source'' on Sharon's Lt. J.G. status if we're going to argue against on screen evidence. Has she ever actually be referred to as such? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:29, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::It's not a stray scene or two—it's every scene. Someone with HD captures or the DVDs should verify but in every picture I've seen, Boomer wears that same insignia, and so does Starbuck. And it's not just the insignia—it's the label on her uniform collar.
::Ricimer, I learned from the "twelve models" thing that when we fans make seemingly reasonable extrapolations from incomplete evidence, we screw things up. There is no direct evidence that Boomer is a JG. None. (Kat is a J.G.—if we can get a screen capture of her insignia perhaps we could compare to Boomer and Starbuck). Yes, it's slightly implausible that a rook pilot could already be an O-3, but not out of the question. For all we know she was a retrained ECO.
::Oooh, I just realized, Helo's a JG too. (in 33 he gives his "name, rank, and serial number"). I'm gonna check out his insignia. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

That's strange. Helo wears the same insignia too as far as I can determine. So apparently both grades of Lieutenant wear the same insignia, unless there's a very subtle difference. (There might be—Adama's and Tigh's insignia are hard to tell apart in some photos.) Also, what rank is Helo according to his caption in Final Cut? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:24, 8 December 2005 (EST)

[[Image:Valeriisharonlt.png|frame|right|The collar of Lt. Valerii's uniform jacket is labeled with her name, serial number, and rank. ("[[Water]]")]]I updated the picture. I'd still say that the preponderence of evidence (considering Boomer's uniform collar in "Water") indicates she's a full Lieutenant, barring any additional evidence to the contrary. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:34, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:If the full Lt. and Lt. J.G. insignia are the same, then what do we have to go on? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:43, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::This image. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 15:48, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Which image? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:56, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::::Sorry, got it uploaded now. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::::Seems credible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)
:Boomer's insignia in the picture above (left side) looks different. On all the other Lt. pins, there is a diamond and the ends of the chevron protrude beyond it but on the pin of Boomer's right side (our left) it looks like the chevron doesn't protrude, leaving it a plain diamond. One other thing is in the Mini, Boomer's Raptor is marked "JRLIEUTENANT SHARON VALERII." --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:36, 14 December 2005 (EST)
::In "Water" before Sharon launches to find water, at 0:26:16, her rank insignia catches the light and you can see that the insignia is a diamond with no protrusions from the chevrons. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:59, 14 December 2005 (EST)
:::That had occurred to me, but the protrusions are difficult to see, yet in some shots they are visible. Furthermore, have you checked Helo's insignia for protrusions? The Raptor markings might be considered a retcon since the rank was established in "33" as "Lieutenant J.G.". Overall the evidence seems inconclusive at best, which is one reason I really, really want HD screen captures. (Word of mouth is one thing, pictures are better). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 17:02, 15 December 2005 (EST)
:::Oh yeah: Helo's chevron definitely DOES protrude, and it's completely confirmed that he's a J.G. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 17:03, 15 December 2005 (EST)
::::You should be able to see what I mean here.--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 16 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:Boomer insig.JPG|thumb|Boomer's insignia ([[Water]]).]]

OK. I agree it looks like that, but I can bring up just as many images that make it look like the edges on Adama's insignia aren't there. More importantly, there are images that clearly show Sharon and Helo's chevrons protruding. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:26, 17 December 2005 (EST)

:I agree that the collars are inconclusive. They're hard to see even on DVDs and BSG has notoriously dark lighting, shakey cameras, etc. All this, plus the ease of this a rank pin might be bothced by the costum guys makes me think that we should treat those as secondary evidence. Unless we can get a really good shot (like the Helo and Starbuck ones above) of Boomer's pin, I think we should act on the hypothesis that all Lieutenants wear the same pin, with the chevron protruding.

:So, discounting jewelry, we have the Mini-series which, according to Talos, marks her ship as JRLIEUTENANT (which is suppose is the same as Lt. J.G.), and then ''Water'' which, as seen in the screen cap above, has her uniform marked "LIEUTENANT". I'd think that her uniform would have her full rank and not just part of it, so I think we can count these as contradictory. Talos, can you give us a screen cap or a rough time that the mini shows this marking? Until we can verify that, what do we do if they're both equally clear? I mean--make a note, obviously, but which is right? I'd vote that Season 1 takes precedence over the mini since this would not be the first retconn from mini to Season 1. Thoughts? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:52, 17 December 2005 (EST)

::Furthermore, the rank of "Junior Lieutenant" has been retconned to "Lieutenant J.G." [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:36, 17 December 2005 (EST)

::: I'm not even sure if we need to call that a retconn. Might just have been some short hand or whatever. The meaning is pretty clearly the same. Unless someone wants to argue something about her being named after her (alleged) father or something. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:54, 17 December 2005 (EST)
::::Here's the pic of the Raptor. Also, I added a pic of couple shots from the Mini-series that show a plain diamond insignia. It seems pretty consistant that the right pin is plain but the left one has the protruding chevron like in the picture at the top of this discussion (the triple one with the Starbuck/Boomer/Helo shots). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:24, 17 December 2005 (EST)

[[Image:Boomer Raptor.JPG|thumb|Boomer's Raptor nameplate ([[Mini-Series]]).]]
[[Image:Boomer insig2a.JPG|thumb|Boomer's insignia part 2 ([[Mini-Series]]).]]

Those have a pretty apparent chevron, Talos. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 02:02, 18 December 2005 (EST)

: I think you're missing the finer distinction that's under debate, Phil. THe question is not whether she's got a chevron. It is two fols: a) Does the chevron poke out of the bottom of the pin like Starbucks and b) Does that actually mean anything? If I get some free time (maybe Teusday, I think), I'll try to get a shot of Boomer/Crashdown's Raptor from my Season 1 DVDs to see if it reads the same as the Miniseries' version of the prop or not. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:23, 18 December 2005 (EST)
::Without HD captures or similar high-resolution images, we can't easily tell. Furthermore, it's an entirely settled point, because we have images showing that Helo's chevron does protrude from the edge, and Helo is indisputably a Lieutenant J.G. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 04:12, 18 December 2005 (EST)
:::I know, that's the problem. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 08:41, 18 December 2005 (EST)
::::In several instances, it appears that Lt. Gaeta has a rank insignia with non-protruding chevrons (at least the Mini and "Hand of God"). The interesting thing is, in Hand of God during the planning session around 10 minutes into the episode, Starbuck's insignia is visible and doesn't show a protruding chevron either but it does in other episodes. Weird. Sorry about the lower resolution pics, the only way I can get screenshots right now is by turning off the hardware acceleration but if you look at the edge of the insig in the new picture I just posted (the Gaeta and Starbuck one), you can't see where it should be protruding. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:18, 18 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:Gaeta Thrace Insig.JPG|thumb|Gaeta and Starbuck rank insignia ([[Hand of God]]).]]

==Ragnar Valerii==
On re-viewing, it seems to me that Ragnar Valerii is almost certainly Caprica Valerii. Why else would she be wearing a Colonial flight suit? On the other hand, what is she doing all the way at Ragnar rather than preparing for her mission on Caprica? Are there so few of her that she had to pull double duty that week? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:36, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:That shes wearing the uniform is more likely a mistake, they hadn't thought of Caprica Valerii when they made the mini-series. Still, the two being one and the same is a good way to explain away said mistake. Her Caprica misson wouldn't really take any preparation, and the Cylons would probably make very efficient use of personnel.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 19:18, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I disagree on this one. We know that there are dozens, nay, hundreds of duplicates of each Cylon model. Plus we don't know how they can share information. Further, Team Anders said that they had seen Cylons in uniform before, implying that it is ''not'' an uncommon sight or rare to see them in one. This combined with the other evidence leads me to thing that there is no real reason to '''assume''' one way or the other that it's the same one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:06, 30 December 2005 (EST)

::Yeah, good points.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 23:47, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:::Sharon just likes to wear Colonial flight suits, just like Doral likes to wear Colonial professional attire and Six likes to wear sexy Colonial dresses. I mean, it's really an affectation for Cylons to wear *any* sort of human clothing—and given comfortable enough conditions, such as those on the interior of a Basestar, they don't. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:55, 31 December 2005 (EST)
::::Actually, I got the impression that the Sharons on the Basestar were all naked because they were "fresh off the assembly line", as it were.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:49, 31 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Basestars produce Cylons? I thought only the Resurrection Ship could do that (oops :-X) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:27, 1 January 2006 (EST)
::::::I guess there are some consequences for making it all up as you go. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:19, 1 January 2006 (EST)

Or--Humano-Cylons are individuals and dress (or not) as individuals and groups. Those aboard the Basestar had formed a community of sorts which saw no particular reason for clothes. The Sharon at Ragnar was one of those who--for reasons of her own (identification with her "sleeper" sister perhaps?) decided to wear a flight suit. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 12:45, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Black Market/Archive 1

2006-01-28T17:21:32Z

Zahir: