<?xml version="1.0"?>
<feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en">
	<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&amp;feedformat=atom&amp;user=Yaneh</id>
	<title>Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]</title>
	<link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&amp;feedformat=atom&amp;user=Yaneh"/>
	<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/Special:Contributions/Yaneh"/>
	<updated>2026-04-27T17:55:13Z</updated>
	<subtitle>User contributions</subtitle>
	<generator>MediaWiki 1.45.1</generator>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96346</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96346"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T19:35:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Three killing herself softly */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she&#039;s resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D&#039;Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D&#039;Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship&#039;s storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They &#039;&#039;do&#039;&#039; have another Rez&#039; Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can&#039;t or won&#039;t investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You&#039;d also think that a Cylon&#039;s death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D&#039;Anna. I always thought that they just don&#039;t talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon&#039;s repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six &amp;amp; the other Sharon killing D&#039;Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D&#039;Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can&#039;t stop someone like D&#039;Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::A Cylon dying aboard a baseship isn&#039;t that suspicious, someone could fall and die, or somehow get hurt severly enough to commit suicide. What the Cylons should be wondering is why there is a body of a dead Three with a Centurion bullet right through her head, while she has no other injuries whatsoever (i.e. no reason to commit suicide) and the Centurions&#039; logs don&#039;t make mention of the incident. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Series history shows that other Cylon agents tend not to talk about other models until confronted with obvious evidence of their connection. &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; Valerii, even after shooting Adama, did not claim herself as a Cylon. [[Sharon Agathon|&amp;quot;Caprica&amp;quot; Valerii]] didn&#039;t reveal [[D&#039;Anna Biers]] or [[Cavil]] despite her increasing loyalty. This may also be a programming block. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Okay, but then how did D&#039;Anna get around this programming block? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:56, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Spencerian a point there (such a programming block would be a very logical move, making it impossible to torture the identity of other Cylons out of known ones), but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s related. Baltar knows all 7 models revealed so far, and all Cylons know that, so there would be no reason not to talk about them, and no block to get around. Also remember that [[Caprica-Six]] is the one to tell Baltar that Three is &amp;quot;doing things&amp;quot;. Your idea that the Cylons don&#039;t talk about her death trips may be true, but keep in mind that she was pretty authoritarian in &#039;&#039;Torn&#039;&#039; when ordering the basestar to jump while the other Cylons are still in discussion. The Threes seem to have some kind of authority over the other models, which could be related to her low number (Number One would be the big boss of course, so if One and Two are with the Final Five, Three would be &amp;quot;in command&amp;quot;). So if the Threes are really the surpreme model or the commanders of this particular basestar, the others might not be eager to speak foul of one of the Threes because they fear consequences. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:17, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::This is possible even without a hierarchical structure, as well. Culturally the feeling might be &amp;quot;That&#039;s none of our business,&amp;quot; or along the lines of giving her the benefit of the doubt that whatever she&#039;s doing is for the good of the Cylons. They don&#039;t really have the concept of traitors within their own society (Sharon Agathon excluded), so the idea of keeping close tabs on someone may be culturally taboo. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Wait a second, what about Caprica Six and Boomer Sharon killing a Three? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 14:34, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The first bullet point was mine, and I will defend it as-is. The second represents my older opinion, and is by no means a re-wording of the above point. If it is to stay I think it needs to present new argumentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:43, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We don&#039;t have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; than a &amp;quot;her&amp;quot; and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered &#039;&#039;something&#039;&#039; in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion&#039;s Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can&#039;t just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the &#039;&#039;Hybrid&#039;&#039; know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D&#039;Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn&#039;t look like any of the 7 models we&#039;ve seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Hybrid may be a sort of an oracle. We&#039;ve seen an oracle on New Caprica in Exodus Part II, and she was right in stating that Hera lived. There are also striking similarities between the two scenes: both concern prophecies, both concern Number Three and Hera, and both imply some kind of connection between the Colonial pantheon and the Cylon god (at the very least the oracle scene in Exodus seems to confirm the existence of the Cylon god). This leads me to thing that the Hybrid knows all this because it has the gift op prophecy (&amp;quot;She experiences life very different from us, Gaius. She swims in the heavens.&amp;quot; - Number Six, Torn). And as to the nature of the Hybrid: there is a shot of the Hybrid in Torn that seems to show the Hybrid having an &#039;open&#039; back, i.e. you see a lot of flesh where its back should be, and there are a lot of plugs exiting it there. That&#039;s probably why they call it a Hybrid, since it&#039;s some kind of combination between an organic being and a machine (even more than the Raiders). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::As stated in the [[Hybrid]] article, it is a Cylon, but not a [[Cylon agent]] and certainly (since it appears in all basestars) not a Five member. We can guess all we want, but it&#039;s too speculative until we get more gems tonight in the mid-season cliffhanger. While it is possible that the Hybrid can have prescience like an oracle, the Cylons are too dumb to ask it, despite their encyclopedic knowledge of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] (which pretty much patterns out what the Colonials are probably doing).--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think the Cylons are too dumb to ask it. It has nothing to do with &amp;quot;dumb.&amp;quot; For one, maybe they have asked it, but they can&#039;t decipher her cryptic responses. Secondly, if Baltar is a Final-Five Cylon, he&#039;s just shown that he&#039;s not too dumb to ask it. Maybe it&#039;s a plot thing: if a Cylon asks it, and it just says &amp;quot;oh it&#039;s at these coordinates,&amp;quot; the show is over. -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:54, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96332</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96332"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T18:57:44Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Three killing herself softly */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she&#039;s resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D&#039;Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D&#039;Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship&#039;s storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They &#039;&#039;do&#039;&#039; have another Rez&#039; Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can&#039;t or won&#039;t investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You&#039;d also think that a Cylon&#039;s death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D&#039;Anna. I always thought that they just don&#039;t talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon&#039;s repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six &amp;amp; the other Sharon killing D&#039;Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D&#039;Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can&#039;t stop someone like D&#039;Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::A Cylon dying aboard a baseship isn&#039;t that suspicious, someone could fall and die, or somehow get hurt severly enough to commit suicide. What the Cylons should be wondering is why there is a body of a dead Three with a Centurion bullet right through her head, while she has no other injuries whatsoever (i.e. no reason to commit suicide) and the Centurions&#039; logs don&#039;t make mention of the incident. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Series history shows that other Cylon agents tend not to talk about other models until confronted with obvious evidence of their connection. &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; Valerii, even after shooting Adama, did not claim herself as a Cylon. [[Sharon Agathon|&amp;quot;Caprica&amp;quot; Valerii]] didn&#039;t reveal [[D&#039;Anna Biers]] or [[Cavil]] despite her increasing loyalty. This may also be a programming block. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Okay, but then how did D&#039;Anna get around this programming block? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:56, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The first bullet point was mine, and I will defend it as-is. The second represents my older opinion, and is by no means a re-wording of the above point. If it is to stay I think it needs to present new argumentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:43, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We don&#039;t have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; than a &amp;quot;her&amp;quot; and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered &#039;&#039;something&#039;&#039; in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion&#039;s Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can&#039;t just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the &#039;&#039;Hybrid&#039;&#039; know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D&#039;Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn&#039;t look like any of the 7 models we&#039;ve seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Hybrid may be a sort of an oracle. We&#039;ve seen an oracle on New Caprica in Exodus Part II, and she was right in stating that Hera lived. There are also striking similarities between the two scenes: both concern prophecies, both concern Number Three and Hera, and both imply some kind of connection between the Colonial pantheon and the Cylon god (at the very least the oracle scene in Exodus seems to confirm the existence of the Cylon god). This leads me to thing that the Hybrid knows all this because it has the gift op prophecy (&amp;quot;She experiences life very different from us, Gaius. She swims in the heavens.&amp;quot; - Number Six, Torn). And as to the nature of the Hybrid: there is a shot of the Hybrid in Torn that seems to show the Hybrid having an &#039;open&#039; back, i.e. you see a lot of flesh where its back should be, and there are a lot of plugs exiting it there. That&#039;s probably why they call it a Hybrid, since it&#039;s some kind of combination between an organic being and a machine (even more than the Raiders). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::As stated in the [[Hybrid]] article, it is a Cylon, but not a [[Cylon agent]] and certainly (since it appears in all basestars) not a Five member. We can guess all we want, but it&#039;s too speculative until we get more gems tonight in the mid-season cliffhanger. While it is possible that the Hybrid can have prescience like an oracle, the Cylons are too dumb to ask it, despite their encyclopedic knowledge of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] (which pretty much patterns out what the Colonials are probably doing).--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think the Cylons are too dumb to ask it. It has nothing to do with &amp;quot;dumb.&amp;quot; For one, maybe they have asked it, but they can&#039;t decipher her cryptic responses. Secondly, if Baltar is a Final-Five Cylon, he&#039;s just shown that he&#039;s not too dumb to ask it. Maybe it&#039;s a plot thing: if a Cylon asks it, and it just says &amp;quot;oh it&#039;s at these coordinates,&amp;quot; the show is over. -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:54, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96327</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96327"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T18:55:49Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* How does the Hybrid know where earth is? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she&#039;s resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D&#039;Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D&#039;Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship&#039;s storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They &#039;&#039;do&#039;&#039; have another Rez&#039; Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can&#039;t or won&#039;t investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You&#039;d also think that a Cylon&#039;s death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D&#039;Anna. I always thought that they just don&#039;t talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon&#039;s repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six &amp;amp; the other Sharon killing D&#039;Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D&#039;Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can&#039;t stop someone like D&#039;Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::A Cylon dying aboard a baseship isn&#039;t that suspicious, someone could fall and die, or somehow get hurt severly enough to commit suicide. What the Cylons should be wondering is why there is a body of a dead Three with a Centurion bullet right through her head, while she has no other injuries whatsoever (i.e. no reason to commit suicide) and the Centurions&#039; logs don&#039;t make mention of the incident. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Series history shows that other Cylon agents tend not to talk about other models until confronted with obvious evidence of their connection. &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; Valerii, even after shooting Adama, did not claim herself as a Cylon. [[Sharon Agathon|&amp;quot;Caprica&amp;quot; Valerii]] didn&#039;t reveal [[D&#039;Anna Biers]] or [[Cavil]] despite her increasing loyalty. This may also be a programming block. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The first bullet point was mine, and I will defend it as-is. The second represents my older opinion, and is by no means a re-wording of the above point. If it is to stay I think it needs to present new argumentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:43, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We don&#039;t have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; than a &amp;quot;her&amp;quot; and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered &#039;&#039;something&#039;&#039; in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion&#039;s Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can&#039;t just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the &#039;&#039;Hybrid&#039;&#039; know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D&#039;Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn&#039;t look like any of the 7 models we&#039;ve seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Hybrid may be a sort of an oracle. We&#039;ve seen an oracle on New Caprica in Exodus Part II, and she was right in stating that Hera lived. There are also striking similarities between the two scenes: both concern prophecies, both concern Number Three and Hera, and both imply some kind of connection between the Colonial pantheon and the Cylon god (at the very least the oracle scene in Exodus seems to confirm the existence of the Cylon god). This leads me to thing that the Hybrid knows all this because it has the gift op prophecy (&amp;quot;She experiences life very different from us, Gaius. She swims in the heavens.&amp;quot; - Number Six, Torn). And as to the nature of the Hybrid: there is a shot of the Hybrid in Torn that seems to show the Hybrid having an &#039;open&#039; back, i.e. you see a lot of flesh where its back should be, and there are a lot of plugs exiting it there. That&#039;s probably why they call it a Hybrid, since it&#039;s some kind of combination between an organic being and a machine (even more than the Raiders). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::As stated in the [[Hybrid]] article, it is a Cylon, but not a [[Cylon agent]] and certainly (since it appears in all basestars) not a Five member. We can guess all we want, but it&#039;s too speculative until we get more gems tonight in the mid-season cliffhanger. While it is possible that the Hybrid can have prescience like an oracle, the Cylons are too dumb to ask it, despite their encyclopedic knowledge of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] (which pretty much patterns out what the Colonials are probably doing).--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think the Cylons are too dumb to ask it. It has nothing to do with &amp;quot;dumb.&amp;quot; For one, maybe they have asked it, but they can&#039;t decipher her cryptic responses. Secondly, if Baltar is a Final-Five Cylon, he&#039;s just shown that he&#039;s not too dumb to ask it. Maybe it&#039;s a plot thing: if a Cylon asks it, and it just says &amp;quot;oh it&#039;s at these coordinates,&amp;quot; the show is over. -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:54, 15 December 2006 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96310</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96310"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T17:31:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* How does the Hybrid know where earth is? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she&#039;s resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D&#039;Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D&#039;Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship&#039;s storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They &#039;&#039;do&#039;&#039; have another Rez&#039; Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can&#039;t or won&#039;t investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You&#039;d also think that a Cylon&#039;s death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D&#039;Anna. I always thought that they just don&#039;t talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon&#039;s repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six &amp;amp; the other Sharon killing D&#039;Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D&#039;Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can&#039;t stop someone like D&#039;Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We don&#039;t have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; than a &amp;quot;her&amp;quot; and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered &#039;&#039;something&#039;&#039; in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion&#039;s Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can&#039;t just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the &#039;&#039;Hybrid&#039;&#039; know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D&#039;Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn&#039;t look like any of the 7 models we&#039;ve seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Yaneh&amp;diff=96309</id>
		<title>User:Yaneh</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Yaneh&amp;diff=96309"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T17:26:36Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Yaneh is addicted to BSG like crack. Otherwise, she is a grad student in New York, NY. She has a computer science background (like everyone else here), but has since moved into other fields that have nothing to do with CS.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although not generally a sci-fi or TV fan, I love a few current TV shows, among which I consider BSG to be the best, especially in terms of dramatic tension and tackling current issues effectively and convincingly, without being heavy-handed.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96308</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96308"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T17:23:17Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Three killing herself softly */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she&#039;s resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D&#039;Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D&#039;Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship&#039;s storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They &#039;&#039;do&#039;&#039; have another Rez&#039; Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can&#039;t or won&#039;t investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You&#039;d also think that a Cylon&#039;s death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D&#039;Anna. I always thought that they just don&#039;t talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon&#039;s repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six &amp;amp; the other Sharon killing D&#039;Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D&#039;Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can&#039;t stop someone like D&#039;Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:We don&#039;t have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; than a &amp;quot;her&amp;quot; and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered &#039;&#039;something&#039;&#039; in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion&#039;s Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can&#039;t just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96293</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96293"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T16:08:30Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Three killing herself softly */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she&#039;s resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D&#039;Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D&#039;Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96291</id>
		<title>Talk:The Passage/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Passage/Archive_1&amp;diff=96291"/>
		<updated>2006-12-15T16:04:38Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== I cried ==&lt;br /&gt;
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means &#039;&#039;it&#039;&#039; was &#039;&#039;&#039;really&#039;&#039;&#039; good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:You weren&#039;t the only one, Shane. You weren&#039;t the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says &amp;quot;we&#039;ll learn more about a character in this episode,&amp;quot; prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :&#039;( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I&#039;ve watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I&#039;m glad I did so. I&#039;d have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I&#039;ll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Tether? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why didn&#039;t Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn&#039;t lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don&#039;t know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn&#039;t occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while &#039;&#039;outside&#039;&#039; of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship&#039;s ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry but this part of the story still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates?  If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Likely because the Raptor&#039;s sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It still doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships?  If the rapter&#039;s computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour.  Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn&#039;t be all that much&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Simple answer: it wouldn&#039;t have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::  Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica&#039;s landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it&#039;s hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued  Apollo&#039;s Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded.  Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal.  Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Did Kat Die?==&lt;br /&gt;
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s glaringly obvious that she died. We didn&#039;t need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.&lt;br /&gt;
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat&#039;s leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show&#039;s writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;~~~~&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I&#039;d say it&#039;s better that we didn&#039;t see her actual death. Death scenes &#039;&#039;can&#039;&#039; a clicé if not done right. Just showing  its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature&lt;br /&gt;
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven&#039;t listened to the podcast yet, but it probably &amp;quot;confirms&amp;quot; her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there&#039;s no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear. &lt;br /&gt;
:* We&#039;re told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat&#039;s turns black twice&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kara gives her &amp;quot;sleeping pills ... enough&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:* When Adama tells Kat he&#039;s promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she&#039;s not making it out of sick bay. He does.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Kat isn&#039;t present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn&#039;t available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.&lt;br /&gt;
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.&lt;br /&gt;
:So, the answer to the question &amp;quot;Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;so the audience would know that she died&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She was A good Character, Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No doubt, Kat&#039;s dead.  All the reasons above.  The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick.  And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation.  Most people don&#039;t realize how dangerous radiation is because we don&#039;t deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you.  I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat.  There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story.  Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D&#039;Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story.  Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s all opinion.  Everybody&#039;s entitled to their own.  But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D&#039;Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378&lt;br /&gt;
:This isn&#039;t Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Anti-Radiation Meds ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds.  I&#039;m not sure why  the returning rapters &amp;amp; pilots were subject to decontamination washing.  I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material.  A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine.  I&#039;ve read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure.  But washing wouldn&#039;t solve the problem.  The &#039;hot&#039; ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all.  I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener.  All this stuff isn&#039;t free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Fourth squadron leader ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we saw at the end of this episode, &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat&#039;s death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word &amp;quot;Times&amp;quot; :) You&#039;ve got better eyes then I do.&lt;br /&gt;
::It was Ricky &amp;quot;Two Times&amp;quot; Richardson. I&#039;m currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times.  Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don&#039;t think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I do too, it doesn&#039;t pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Jupiter = Zeus==&lt;br /&gt;
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that &amp;quot;Jupiter&amp;quot; was replaced by &amp;quot;Zeus&amp;quot;. I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the &amp;quot;Eye of Jupiter&amp;quot; is interesting (I&#039;m leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three&#039;s line about &amp;quot;their gods and ours&amp;quot; that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they&#039;ll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe we&#039;re wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn&#039;t married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they&#039;ve decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren&#039;t seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera&#039;s roman equivalent is Juno, but it&#039;s clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it&#039;s safe to suppose that they&#039;re just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek&lt;br /&gt;
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --09:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hot Dog&#039;s name ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog&#039;s name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one &amp;quot;N&amp;quot;, not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it&#039;d look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Carol-Anne?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it&#039;s hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::He, the cc, and canon have her as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Three killing herself softly==&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D&#039;Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it&#039;s logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she&#039;s being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she&#039;d download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Slip? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the following from the Analysis:&lt;br /&gt;
* One of D&#039;Anna&#039;s sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D&#039;Anna says &amp;quot;Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?&amp;quot; where &amp;quot;their&amp;quot; refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and &amp;quot;ours,&amp;quot; the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D&#039;Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the &amp;quot;ours&amp;quot; to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It&#039;s more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don&#039;t think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of &amp;quot;us&amp;quot;. But mostly, let&#039;s just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s actually why I described it as a &amp;quot;possible slip,&amp;quot; though I think it&#039;s considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D&#039;Anna if he&#039;s one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue &amp;quot;at-hand&amp;quot; and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it&#039;s either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it&#039;s thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki&#039;s analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I&#039;ll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It&#039;s good. I&#039;ve re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Boxey? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat&#039;s picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the &amp;quot;MISSING&amp;quot; poster?  I swear Boxey was in the picture on it.  A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Same here.  Personally, I think the Hybrid&#039;s lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke.  &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction&#039;&#039;.&amp;quot; aka &amp;quot;WHERE&#039;S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!&amp;quot; --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Arguing with thyself ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Carol-Anne&amp;quot; vs. &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here&#039;s what was removed:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]&#039;s mother was named as &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;[[Act of Contrition]]&amp;quot;, but in a flashback in &amp;quot;[[Scattered]]&amp;quot;, Adama refers to his wife as &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot;, whom Tigh calls Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;new wife&amp;quot;. This new information suggests that both &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Anne&amp;quot; are variants of a single person&#039;s name.&lt;br /&gt;
**In summary, Adama had two wives.  His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That&#039;s pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon/Archive4&amp;diff=91510</id>
		<title>Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon/Archive4&amp;diff=91510"/>
		<updated>2006-11-15T18:29:19Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Cylons as the Lords of Kobol */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{archive-header&lt;br /&gt;
| archivenumber = 01&lt;br /&gt;
| number = 1&lt;br /&gt;
| start = April 2, 2005&lt;br /&gt;
| end = January 23, 2006&lt;br /&gt;
| items = {{archive-item|01|12 Cylon or 12 Humano-Cylon models?}} {{archive-item|01|Same, yet Different?}} {{archive-item|01|Origin of the Term &amp;quot;Humano-Cylon&amp;quot;?}} {{archive-item|01|Hybrids/Sharon&#039;s daughter article?}} {{archive-item|01|Order of Models}} {{archive-item|01|Re: Adama and Gaeta being ruled out as &amp;quot;Humano-Cylons&amp;quot;}} {{archive-item|01|Ellen Tigh}} {{archive-item|01|Cylon Series Revision}} {{archive-item|01|Did Boomer really know the count of infiltrators}} {{archive-item|end=Y|01|List of people who are ruled out as Cylons?}}&lt;br /&gt;
|}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Replacement and retirement of article title ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;This discussion&#039;s origin originated in [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Replacement and retirement of the term &amp;quot;Humano-Cylon&amp;quot;|the Standards and Conventions talk page]], where you can find the original content.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Per the discussion in the above link, I plan to move this article to [[Cylon agent]], as it is the most commonly used term to describe the humanoid Cylon models. &amp;quot;Humano-Cylon&amp;quot; will redirect here, and we will need to scour for other terms to redirect as well. This name is sufficiently canonical that it is unlikely that further debate is required. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:58, 14 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Go for it. Though with an article title of &amp;quot;Cylon agent&amp;quot;, it would be great to have a screen capture of the file on Laura&#039;s desk that has that wording on it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 14 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I may just spend $2 on iTunes to get just that. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:14, 14 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Move completed; no Big Thang. Summary subarticle in Cylon series pages also updated. Please update any pages for old terminology when appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:33, 14 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Am I right in saying that all references to Humano-Cylon should be changed to Cylon agent&amp;gt; --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 08:12, 6 March 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::That&#039;s correct. We&#039;re going with &amp;quot;Cylon agent&amp;quot; since the only evidence indicating &amp;quot;Humano-Cylon&amp;quot; (see below) may have been doctored by the Cylons to throw us off... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:19, 6 March 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Just to clarify; they made the picture below as a joke.  Really, we discussed it on our Conventions page, and &amp;quot;human-cylon&amp;quot; seemed too much like describing the Hybrid, and hasn&#039;t gained much outside use, so we opted for something else.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Known Cylon Agents ==&lt;br /&gt;
That pic is AWESOME! It fits the section so well that I would normally suspect that it had been photoshopped (if I hadn&#039;t already seen it in the show). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:00, 15 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Perhaps you moved the article too soon...&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;ll likely delete this image soon. I just had the idea of Photoshopping the folder after the preceding post. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:19, 15 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Photoshop: Suitable tool, or instrument of Satan? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:37, 15 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Naming Convention ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As of &amp;quot;[[Downloaded]]&amp;quot; we now finally know some other Model numbers besides Number Six:  &amp;quot;D&#039;anna Biers&amp;quot; is &#039;&#039;&#039;Number Three&#039;&#039;&#039;, &amp;quot;Aaron Doral&amp;quot; is &#039;&#039;&#039;Number Five&#039;&#039;&#039;, and &amp;quot;Sharon &#039;Boomer&#039; Valerii&amp;quot; is &#039;&#039;&#039;Number Eight&#039;&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In light of this, should we change the title of some, or all, of their character articles to read &amp;quot;Number Three&amp;quot;, etc. like for Number Six?  Because apparently, among themselves the Cylons never actually use the fake human names some used as spys, or indeed refer to themselves by name at all. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would think that the unfortunately named Number Two is a pretty thankless job. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, where those numbers are known. I broached the subject on [[Talk:Sharon Valerii]] and am currently awaiting a little more feedback before we go ahead with the move. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Do the Cylons tend to look out for Number One? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Number One is not a number, he is a man. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:10, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:A free man? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:24, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I agree with changing the title of ALL articles referring to the mainstream model, making two new for D&#039;anna and Aaron (the media models) like we did for the sharons and sixes.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]  25 February 2006&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When did &amp;quot;we&amp;quot; start calling them &amp;quot;Galactica-Boomer&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Caprica-Boomer&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Pegasus-Six&amp;quot;, etc?  You see, Televesionwithoutpity.com does make up and popularize terms like this....but I&#039;m not sure if they STARTED using it, or if they TOOK UP using it from some reviewer or the messageboards.  I seriously think this is one of those Stand Alone Complex things; we all just more or less independently, from the grassroots up, got the idea to do that.  Anyone? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:49, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Pretty much. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:03, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I generally compel the proper use of &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; to the Galactica model only, as she is the copy that actually served. &#039;&#039;No one&#039;&#039; in episodes have called the Caprica copy by that name, and things are confusing enough. &amp;quot;Caprica-Valerii&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Galactica-Valerii&amp;quot; (or Boomer) is better. Otherwise, yes, we have to make things up until we get an official term, but we should be consistent and precise about it. &#039;&#039;Never&#039;&#039; use Sharon in any context--use of character first names only is against wiki convention in episode summaries. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:19, 25 February 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Actually, Baltar called Caprica-Sharon &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; at the end of Home, part 2. But what does he know?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:55, 9 March 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Question: a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I just started watching BSG about a week ago and im only part way through season 2, but I&#039;m thinking isn&#039;t there a way for the Galactica crew to stop the cylon agents they kill from transmiting their consciousness? Cant they put the agent in a room with thick metal walls to stop the signal, or put their bodies into a woodchipper, or something similar, so whatever system in the body that transmits will be destroyed? In season one they just tossed the agent out an airlock, they didn&#039;t even try to stop him. I guess they really haven&#039;t explained yet how it is even possible for the agent&#039;s body to come up with enough energy to transmit their entire consciousness in an undetectable signal instantly across several light years. Maybe they&#039;ll get to it in a future episode, including the ones I haven&#039;t seen yet. Right now, its very magical fairies. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 17:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It comes up a bit later. Specifically, right after the mid-season cliff-hanger of Season 2. Not &#039;&#039;all&#039;&#039; your questions will be answered, but it becomes less magical. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Grace Park Reveals Cylon Secrets.... ==&lt;br /&gt;
MediaBlvd&#039;s interview with Grace Park was releasd in the full today, revealing a few more things about the nature of the Cylons that had not been released before. A lot of things are Park&#039;s own point of view, but she does mention a few interesting facts she read in the &amp;quot;Cylon Handout&amp;quot;. Some of these facts include:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot; Because Cylons were created in the form of humans, and humans were created in God’s image, and Cylons want to be close to God, they can actually choose - but some models more likely than others tend to eat rather than just taking in nutrients.  We just learned all this, I didn’t even know it, but taking in nutrients, I think through the skin&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;There would be specific ports in the Cylon base ship that they could do this, and they can also do that with information.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;- it wasn’t a very specific jack, like your phone jack in the wall.  Nothing like that in her arm.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;A little bit of both of that.  Within one model, the different bodies can share memories, but within that model only.  Now I use the words ‘CAN share memories,’ because it’s not like they all automatically share them.  I’m under the understanding that you can choose to upload, and you can choose to download information.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;- that the Cylons that we’ve known so far are programmed not even to think about the last five.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the actual facts she mentions, amidst her opinions, but what I posted were the solid facts. The last one had already been mentioned before, but this comment clarified that it&#039;s not that they don&#039;t know who they are, they just don&#039;t think about them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are also some other interesting tidbits in there (such as why exactly the Naked Sharons let themeselves die) which may help other articles.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I wanted to ask before posting any of this information, it&#039;s all solid and concise, but should we nonetheless abstain from putting in the bits we got (because we have nothing else and it would prove to be tantalizing). I think we should put it in, since they are actual facts from the new &amp;quot;Cylon Bible&amp;quot;, but I wanted to pass it here so that you can judge on where to put them and how to word them. (Cuz I suck at actually adding it on the article, so I&#039;d rather share the info and let someone else do the fine tuning on the article itself)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For the full interview: http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420145.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:22 09 May 2006&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s kind of how I always rationalized they must share info; not between models, not a hive mind, they CAN but don&#039;t alaways.  This &amp;quot;nutrient bath&amp;quot; thing is new and intruiging though.  &amp;quot;This form brings us closer to God&amp;quot;; yeah I was already theorizing on this after that comment in KLG II that that&#039;s why they wanted to appear humanlike.  Anyway, great to get some more or less confirmation on those musings/speculation.  ***I don&#039;t know why, but some people treated it as a &amp;quot;oh my God, massive spoiler&amp;quot; that the 7 known Cylon models might not consciously think of who the unrevealed ones are.  I mean, it doesn&#039;t actually affect the plot or ANY of our speculation so far; always assumed they had some sort of saftey feature like that for secrecy. &#039;&#039;&#039;I wonder:  was this &amp;quot;Cylon Bible&amp;quot; RECENTLY written?&#039;&#039;&#039;  The [[Series Bible]] was written in the break between the Miniseries and season one.  Of course, they could have had these Cylon points as running ideas in the writer&#039;s room, but is this new, written down 10 page-ish long &amp;quot;Cylon Bible&amp;quot; something new she got?  Context.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:26, 9 May 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It seems the series bible did not containt detailed information on the Cylon Characters beyond the basics, the new bible is specifically made for Cylons I think, probably detailing some history, both personal and such, and the kind of things that may help an actor understand who/what they are playing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, this nutrient bath may be the reason we saw the Sharons naked in KLG2, rather than the Cylons being nudists., and maybe that&#039;s also why that part of the Basestar is organic, because it feeds the Ships and the Agents. Guess we&#039;ll know in Season 3 --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well I always thought they were naked just because they were &amp;quot;fresh off the assembly line&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;in storage&amp;quot; or whatever; like Terminator.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:09, 10 May 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Maybe, but with the Resurrection Ship.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]10 May 2006&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So wouldn&#039;t the Grace Park interview indicate that the evidence &amp;quot;against&amp;quot; Baltar being a Cylon presented in Downloaded is pretty much bupkis? If the agents arent supposed to think of him as an agent, they&#039;d call him a human. In fact, Baltar&#039;s behavior is so selfish it borders on cliche. It would seem to me that he would fit the &amp;quot;selfish asshole&amp;quot; archetype of humanity pretty damned well. --[[User:Number Thirteen|Number Thirteen]] 01:04, 12 October 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== telepathic abilities  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When Sharon met here &amp;quot;sisters&amp;quot; in the basestar, she could hear their voices. Could that mean, that she has telepathic abilities? Or possibly a kind of relaying made this possible? -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:06, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Hi, Tirkon. We really don&#039;t have any information into the actual manner in which agents transfer low level data (specifically, their memories). They aren&#039;t like the Borg; they haven&#039;t a collective consciousness. For Boomer to &amp;quot;hear&amp;quot; their voices may suggest that she (as a sleeper) was hearing this low level data transfer for the first time, and being on a basestar may have exacerbated this ability. Agents very likely share data from a collective knowledgebase (since models of the same kind seem to know much of what another model knows, to a point). Since Cylon agents are still constructs, the concept of telepathic abilities suggest implausible things that attribute more biological (even spiritual) concepts to these constructs that probably don&#039;t apply; a machine can definitely transmit and receive data (something proven in &amp;quot;Downloaded&amp;quot;) so this is the best way to consider Boomer&#039;s realization, in my opinion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:22, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== humanoid cylons stronger than humans ==&lt;br /&gt;
I think, it is confirmed, that the humanoid cylons are stronger than humans. I.e. confirmed by the fights Starbuck-Number Six, Starbuck-Leoben and William Adama-Leoben. In particular during the fight Starbuck-Number Six Six throws Starbuck as hard as a human never could. During &amp;quot;Downloaded&amp;quot; Six slays Number Three with a huge piece of concrete, which never could be handled so easy by a human. And this piece must have bean very heavy, because the head of Number Three was mud after that. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s generally true. While their bodies are still just as vulnerable to injury as a human body, their strength is definitely greater, although we can&#039;t state by how much. We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size, but are not strong enough to bend steel bars (otherwise captured agents could escape their cages). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:57, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::&#039;&#039;&amp;gt;We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size&#039;&#039; ... and throw it about four meters. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::And there seems to be a little disaccord. If one is strong enough for doing that, he also must be heavy enough for doing that (balance weight). That is opposite to the sex between Baltar and Six, when Six was lying on him (the read vertebral column in miniseries). -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:39, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== humanoid cylons = agents? ==&lt;br /&gt;
You always talk here from the humoid cylons as agents. Is that realy true? Are they ALL!! agents? Possibly the word &amp;quot;agent&amp;quot; does not have the same meaning in Englisch and German. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:The term &amp;quot;Cylon Agent&amp;quot; came [[:Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|from the show]]. See the [[Cylon_agent#_note-name|name note]] at the bottom of the article. So it&#039;s mostly a matter of trying to be &amp;quot;canonical&amp;quot; than trying to imply any sort of affiliation or loyalty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:50, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Aaaaaah! Thanks for that claricifation. :o) In the german Battlestar version the term &amp;quot;agent&amp;quot; is not as common. German Wikipedia points out a difference between the english and german use of term &amp;quot;agent&amp;quot;. Thus this could be a matter for that. Further the view of some cylons (&amp;quot;the heros in &amp;quot;Download&amp;quot;) has changed. Thus in german Battlestar Wiki I have used &amp;quot;humanoid cylon&amp;quot; instead of &amp;quot;cylon agent&amp;quot;. And with you comment I am safe, that this dicision was adequate. Sorry for cannot beeing as precise as I would. But I am not a native english speaker. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Maybe its just me but i always loved the term [[Humano-Cylon]] ^_^ --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 13:30, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Not a problem! Looks like everything worked out. Also, bear in mind that the standards and conventions of the particular wiki should rule for its articles. That is to say, the German Wiki&#039;s standards and conventions should govern the articles at the German wiki. Don&#039;t let the [[BW:SC|English version]] restrict you at all. As long as you&#039;re consistent with your own rules there the German reader/editor will have a more standard/uniform experience. (Though you may want to update [[:de:Battlestar Wiki:Standards und Konventionen|that page ]] once you&#039;ve established new conventions). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:34, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::&#039;&#039;&amp;gt;want to update that page&#039;&#039; At present we are just two translaters. And we are still going to built up the structere and translate the episodes and the most important characters. At this state such conventions are not the point. ;o) And the human cylons was until now the only point, what was a little problematic for me. Thus I wanted discuss this with the well-versed people here. And this was helpful :o) -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:55, 5 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Unseen cylon agent (miniseries) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the miniseries, Number Six mentions to Baltar that she is meeting someone (26:35 into the miniseries) when they are walking in public prior to the attack. She leaves Baltar and immediately meets with an unseen person (27:12), remarking &amp;quot;It&#039;s about time, wondered when you&#039;d get here&amp;quot;. This person can only be a cylon - but they never appear on screen. Who could it be?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Cfuxe|cfuse]] 06:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Anyone. It could also be just another very human bloke Six had contact with during her time on Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:10, 18 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Cylon naming and instancing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cylons agents (including sleeper agents) appear to be able to distinguish different instances of the same cylon model from one and other without any difficulty. In Downloaded, &#039;Sharon&#039; seems to have no difficulty in identifying individual cylons apart, despite the fact that all cylons of a given model are visually identical. In addition, she is admonished for using her name because it is a vestige of her human identity and presumably redundant in cylon society.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Cfuxe|cfuse]] 06:57, 18 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: Honestly, we don&#039;t know how they do it, and I doubt that it&#039;ll ever be explained in the series. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:13, 18 September 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Centurions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It&#039;s been added that Cylon Centurions can&#039;t tell the difference between copies of the same model, but that&#039;s not what Adama said. He said that they can&#039;t tell one humanoid Cylon (ex: Sharon) apart from any other humanoid Cylon. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:51, 10 October 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A word about Number Three ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The entry about Number Three says, that &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D&#039;anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, &amp;quot;Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, c&#039;mon. In &amp;quot;Downloaded&amp;quot; D&#039;Anna, along with other Cylons, was clearly seen by Samuel Anders. In &amp;quot;Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I&amp;quot; Anders arrives on Galactica - did you think that he hasn&#039;t told the others about what he saw on Caprica? The moment Anders was rescued by Starbuck&amp;amp;Co., the true identity of D&#039;Anna was no longer a secret (hence her presence on New Caprica).-- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 17:29, 17 October 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Hi, Spike. Aside from the article now being out of date, the specific clarification  you&#039;re missing is &amp;quot;of all the Cylon agents revealed to viewers, the &#039;&#039;members of [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]&#039;&#039; are not aware that D&#039;anna Biers is a Cylon as of &amp;quot;Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;s&#039;&#039; members and her Fleet may still be unaware that the one named D&#039;Anna is a Cylon (but has likely received intel from their Raptor deployments in Season 3). Anders (although a Colonial) was not part of the Fleet until the end of LDYB and may have not seen the documentary that Biers created, thus not being able to inform the Fleet of yet another Cylon. It is likely that he does inform them; we as viewers aren&#039;t enlightened to this until the obvious events on New Caprica where all known agents are revealed to them. (Please be sure to sign your comments; place a couple of dashes and four tilde symbols (~). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:32, 17 October 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Cylons as the Lords of Kobol ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Given the 12 models of Cylon Agents, it seems possible that they represent the 12 Lords of Kobol.  Many of the models seem to have traits associated with the Olympians.  I’m not suggesting that the Cylons actually are the gods themselves, but copies of the gods.  They may or may not know that they represent the gods.  A list of the Olympians matches fairly well with what we know about some of the Cylons.  (In particular, the Number 6 / Aphrodite connection is almost undeniable.)  Some agents who we know less about (Simon, Cavil) are a looser fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Poseidon&#039;&#039;&#039;, God of the Sea.  Holds influence among the Olympians, but is greedy and quarrelsome.  -  Cavil?  ||  &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Hades&#039;&#039;&#039;, God of the Underworld.  Unpitying, always in control of his domain.  Abducted a woman to be his wife – Leoben  ||  &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Hera&#039;&#039;&#039;, Zeus’s wife.  Holds great influence, constantly schemes.  -  Number 3  ||  &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Ares&#039;&#039;&#039;, God of War.  A brutal murderer, but also a coward.  -  Number 5  ||  &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Athena&#039;&#039;&#039;.  A fierce soldier and protector of her people.  -  Number 8  ||  &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Aphrodite&#039;&#039;&#039;, Goddess of Beauty.  Holds great power over men.  -  Number 6  ||  &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Hephaestus&#039;&#039;&#039;, God of the Forge.  Skills are mental, and creation, not a fighter. - Simon&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This leaves Zeus, Hestia, Apollo, Hermes, and Artemis as the remaining unknown  Cylons.  Does anyone else think there may be something to this, or have better fits for some agents?  --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 14:24, 23 October 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I&#039;ve definitely considered the possibility that the Cylon Models and the Lords of Kobol are intimately connected for quite a while. The problem always was that the Greek Pantheon did not neatly end up with a dozen gods, so there was a fair amount of guess work for the what the remaining Lords of Kobol were. For example, I doubt Hestia will be one of them: she&#039;s a fairly obscure goddess. Demeter or Dionysus are more likely candidates.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I really like some of the parallels you&#039;ve come up with though. Aphrodite=Six was always the fairly obvious one, and I&#039;ve considered Sharon as Athena. I quite like the parallels between Leoben and Hades. All of the other parallels you&#039;ve come up with work. It&#039;s just that without knowing all of the Lords of Kobol and all of the models, and what roles they will ultimately play, it&#039;s hard to say exactly how everyone fits. Sure, at the moment Number Six seems to obviously be the Aphrodite of the Cylons, but with her obsession with childbirth, I sometimes wonder if she&#039;s destined to be Artemis. Not that she&#039;s especially virginal. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 14:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
They could be the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one for each of the 12 Colonies, which then of course suggests there may be a 13th secret model to correspond to Earth.  [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:28, 15 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The 5 remaining agents == &lt;br /&gt;
I think it is apparent that the function of the 5 remaining agents is different from the function of the 7 known agents (my analysis) since the 7 seem to be making decisions on both New Caprica and on the basestar about Baltar and the other 5 are not.  Additionally, we have Aaron Douglas&#039;s speculation on their status and there is probably other evidence but I honestly haven&#039;t done any research on that.   Is there enough beef behind this line of reasoning to say that it&#039;s not speculation on my part and is worthy of putting SOMETHING on the article page?  --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:It&#039;s certainly speculation, and moreover, it&#039;s based on spoilers. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 29 October 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Possibilities ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I wonder if there is a non-humanoid sapient Cylon we haven&#039;t seen yet, maybe something too large to effectively move around (perhaps stuck on the Cylon homeworld that the Cylons disappeared to after the first Cylon war).  It could explain a number of things, including how the Cylon agents came into being -- perhaps they are a sort of iPod version of the non-humanoid sapient Cylons, fitting a technological sapience into a more convenient humanoid form.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Centurions themselves nor their ships could not have been all there was to the Cylons in the days of the first Cylon war -- how could they rebel?  They simply follow orders and carry them out.  There must have been *something* or *someone* in those days to alter their programming if not have some sort of control seizure to make them rebel against the human Colonials.  It may have originally been some sort of central server-like system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Its just a wild idea, and probably not what the writers have in mind, but something like it could explain some of the seeming inconsistencies and plot holes.  Something completely different could also work, I suppose.  The Centurions certainly don&#039;t seem to have true sapience, and I doubt they have any religious conceptions.  --[[User:Itsua|Itsua]] 08:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: There&#039;s a lot we don&#039;t know about the Cylons past. However, it&#039;s been hinted at that the old Centurions had artifical intelligence, which allowed them to think independently. The new Cylon Centurions, however, don&#039;t have a true artificial intelligence since the Cylons themselves didn&#039;t want their own machines to rebel against them (this is established in &amp;quot;[[Precipice]]&amp;quot;, by the way). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It seems improbable that the Cylons were originally &#039;&#039;just&#039;&#039; Centurions whom later created the Agents, unless the original Centurions were just as sapient (if not moreso) as the Agents.  I&#039;m hoping/guessing the origin of the Agents will be explored in future episodes, and perhaps Caprica will explain more of the Cylon origins.  --[[User:Itsua|Itsua]] 06:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I got the distinct impression that the Centurions were originally true AIs and created the skinjobs over intermediate stages like the Raiders and Hybrids. But then the skinjobs - in a nice parallel to humanity - enslaved the Centurions and stripped them off most of their intelligence. As said all that is touched on in &amp;quot;Precipice&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:22, 11 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Major Revision ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;ve made heavy reorganization and concisions to this article to make it easier to discern the nature of these characters. I&#039;ve removed data redundant with episode or character articles, and also removed a great deal of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking material]] that was introduced into the article. The article is still on the long side; further concision to reduce redundancies with other articles is appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:12, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Yaneh&amp;diff=91400</id>
		<title>User:Yaneh</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Yaneh&amp;diff=91400"/>
		<updated>2006-11-15T00:57:47Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Yaneh is addicted to BSG like crack. Otherwise, she is a grad student in New York, NY. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although not generally a sci-fi or TV fan, she loves a few current TV shows, among which she considers BSG to be the best, especially in terms of dramatic tension and tackling current issues effectively and convincingly, without being heavy-handed.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Measure_of_Salvation/Archive_1&amp;diff=91256</id>
		<title>Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Measure_of_Salvation/Archive_1&amp;diff=91256"/>
		<updated>2006-11-13T20:50:26Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Some Poor Writing */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Picture?==&lt;br /&gt;
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don&#039;t remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it&#039;s from a deleted scene. Unless I&#039;ve forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn&#039;t we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Some Poor Writing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore&#039;s Star Trek franchises.  So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep.  I&#039;d have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are &amp;quot;quarantined&amp;quot;, together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It&#039;s preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug.  He has no assurance that he won&#039;t be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn&#039;t spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet.  The audience isn&#039;t stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be.  Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama&#039;s infection plan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick.  (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to &amp;quot;succeed&amp;quot; thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story.  In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the &amp;quot;local&amp;quot; resurrection ship.  Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major &amp;quot;body-blow&amp;quot; giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please don&#039;t get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions.  Please, Mr. Moore, DON&#039;T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE!  I&#039;m trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:&lt;br /&gt;
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn&#039;t in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol&#039;s Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot&#039;s of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that&#039;s bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it&#039;s likely that Helo manipulated the same system).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she&#039;s given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: That&#039;s an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn&#039;t destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would have to agree the writing is poor.  The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world.  This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.)  It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary.  I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping.  As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons.  I have also heard complaints from two of our friends.  I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation.  As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now.  I would hate to see it have an early demise.  As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Ratings have been slipping for &#039;&#039;SG-1&#039;&#039; and &#039;&#039;Atlantis&#039;&#039; as well; neither have the strong allegories to today&#039;s world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don&#039;t fully buy that there&#039;s a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi&#039;s scheduling decisions of breaking up the &amp;quot;Three Amigos&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Stargate SG-1&#039;&#039;, &#039;&#039;Stargate Atlantis&#039;&#039; and &#039;&#039;Battlestar Galactica&#039;&#039;). As for the &amp;quot;loss of humanity&amp;quot; and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five&#039;s suicide bombing attempt in &amp;quot;[[Litmus]]&amp;quot; and Adama&#039;s speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points.  While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw.  Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson.  His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental.  I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG.  As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season.  I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series.  In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining.  I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting.  This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.:  The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.)  Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events.  While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers.  The two aren’t even remotely comparable.  The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual.  The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events.  (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter.  None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.)  The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component.  Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary.  Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.)  I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were &amp;quot;condoned&amp;quot; by the show. Roslin didn&#039;t like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who&#039;s been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn&#039;t like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn&#039;t saved them in the last minute.  The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn&#039;t kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn&#039;t look like he&#039;s coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Furthermore, I don&#039;t think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured.  I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet.  The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature.  I disagree that this show was PC.  The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons.  To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar.  To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are &amp;quot;just robots&amp;quot;), Baltar&#039;s initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they&#039;ve been doing since the beginning of the show. It&#039;s just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don&#039;t agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that&#039;s a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Explanations ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective.  After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it&#039;s escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them.  From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it.  They&#039;ve already used the &amp;quot;sucker&amp;quot; strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy.  Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this.  Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also a note about the raptors and their missiles.  The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well.  It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower.  This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica&#039;s firepower.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== About Gaeta ==&lt;br /&gt;
Looking at the question here:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D&#039;Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke.  Given that the nuke didn&#039;t go off, it isn&#039;t unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90701</id>
		<title>Talk:Torn/Archive2</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90701"/>
		<updated>2006-11-11T02:26:28Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Origin of the virus */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Summary Split?==&lt;br /&gt;
We&#039;ve taken to splitting the episode summaries between the Fleet and Baltar. Am I alone in thinking this isn&#039;t the best method? I&#039;d prefer the summary going through the events of the episode chronologically. Especially now that the two storylines are beginning to converge. It was fine in Collaborators, where the two threads didn&#039;t effect each other. But now, someone reading the summary encounters a mention of the dead basestar at the end of the Galactica summary before getting to any of the details in the Cylon summary. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 00:00, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally I think it&#039;s fine. It depends on how much interaction there is between the two story lines in the next episode. If they signicantly interact, then this summary may require change, but for now I think it&#039;s ok.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:14, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Actually, we&#039;ve been describing each story line separately since &amp;quot;[[33]]&amp;quot;. It really makes the story lines easier to keep track of for both the viewer and the editors. However, if there&#039;s a better way, I would be interested in a discussion of it. What method or methods would you suggest? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:18, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: I think it&#039;s a fine format in most cases. It certainly worked for Collaborators, and it worked well for the Helo arc of Season One. However, in those instances, the main plot and the sides-story didn&#039;t interact, so knowing how the Galactica side of the episode pans out before you read what happened to Helo, it isn&#039;t a problem. But here we have the Galactica storyline ending with something that was explained in the Cylon storyline. I guess I&#039;m just concerned that some reading it without having seen the episode would be very confused. Something as simple as putting the Cylon half of the summary first I think would clear up any potential confusion, especially considering that nothing in the Galactica story effects the Cylon story. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:56, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Promotional pictures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Look at these pictures:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kthzq/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kw117/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Where do they come from? I don&#039;t remember such scene in &amp;quot;Torn&amp;quot;... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 01:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.s. All promo images are also on the wiki. As for those images, when I was uploading new promo images tonight, I noticed those, and I was like... &amp;quot;I never saw them.&amp;quot;. if they show up in another episode, I will recategorize them in the media wiki. [[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:53, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:They may have come from a deleted scene as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::They might have been moved to the next episode &amp;quot;A Measure of Salvation&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:13, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Can anyone identify the patch on Baltar&#039;s flight suit? It looks like it has a picture of an old style Raider on it. http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000ksya5/g248 -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::That&#039;s the [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/albums/s1waterpromos/normal_BSG04EP_7727CS.JPG standard Raptor patch]. That&#039;s the Raptor squadron that Sharon belongs to. We maybe ought to crop some of the patches off uniforms and have a patches and insignias section of the uniforms page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Hmm. Odd I never noticed that before. Seen like something I would&#039;ve seen before. I thought maybe it was squandron, like Primus or The Vigilantes. An article on patches would be interesting. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:24, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Oh, no. I think you&#039;re right. I think that&#039;s exactly what it is. I was just saying that was a &amp;quot;normal&amp;quot; squadron patch for a Raptor (as in we&#039;ve seen it before). If you would be willing to wade through the promo photos and screencaps ([http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/index.php some here as well]) to identify pictures with good patch shots in them, I&#039;d be willing to crop down to the patches and upload them and help start either a new section on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] or a subarticle of that page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:37, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I have no idea how to phrase it or if i remember correctly, but didn&#039;t Sharon (athena) start talking incoherently when they jump to the Lions Head? Is she infected? We don&#039;t see them jump back... [[User:Puneypunk|Puneypunk]] 06:26, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:No. She wasn&#039;t infected. She was shocked at what she saw and quoted scripture. She said &amp;quot;When god&#039;s anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:10, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Helo as XO ==&lt;br /&gt;
Surely if he was the XO, Adama would of promoted him to at least Major, if not Colonel, by now? I&#039;m not disputing that Helo is acting as Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;eyes and ears&amp;quot; but I&#039;m surpirsed that he is being described as XO.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:39, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Rank isn&#039;t everything. An officer can also &amp;quot;outrank&amp;quot; someone with a nominally higher rank just by position. Adama probably still plans for Tigh to return some day and has Helo as interim solution. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It&#039;s quite possible that Helo hasn&#039;t been promoted because he hasn&#039;t met the minimum time-in-grade for a full Lieutenant yet. Kat&#039;s quick rise from Ensign to Lieutenant seems to contradict this, however. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::To me, his job seems to be something of a cross between Gaeta&#039;s former position and Tigh&#039;s.  It may be that he fell into his current roll while Galactica was understaffed and it has yet to be formalised or revised back to a more standard one.  We have seen that the crew is still readjusting to some extent and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if there are still some adjustments yet to be made. --[[User:Ryan H|Ryan H]] 12:35, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don&#039;t think minimum time in-grade is all that important anymore, all things considered. I also think that Helo and Kat are both excellent candidates for Captain, if they aren&#039;t already. Kat and Starbuck could be squadron leaders, Apollo could be CAG, and Helo could be Gaeta, since Gaeta is the new Baltar. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Origin of the virus ==&lt;br /&gt;
Far too speculative to put on the main page, but could the virus have been planted by the other 5 models?  Perhaps a split occurred within the Cylons soon after they took human form, and the other 5 have decided to strike at the ones that we know.&lt;br /&gt;
If indeed the virus is a hybrid biological / technological nature as surmised in the Questions, it would support the theory of other Cylons having created it. --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 13:29, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, if it was placed by the other 5, then it may be logical to asume that the other 5 went off in search of and, possibly, found earth, leaving this &amp;quot;viral pod&amp;quot; behind to ward off the 7. Unfortunately its all wild speculation at this point. --[[User:Vladimir|Vladimir]] 13:34, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
If the virus was placed at the Lion&#039;s Head by Eathlings to dissuade potential Earth-seekers, it was either placed when they left Kobol a long time ago, or sometime more recently. If they placed it when they left Kobol, that would suggest that it was either an accident that it affected the Cylons negatively, or that they could somehow forsee that the Cylons would be looking for them. Otherwise, it could have been placed more recently by Earthlings (either of Cylon or human extraction), meaning the inhabitants of Earth are aware that Cylons are looking for them, and they don&#039;t want the Cylons to find them. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Moreover, does this mean that at every one of the 12 constellations, there will be a new anti-Cylon trap? The Cylons won&#039;t fall for the virus again, clearly, so the Earthlings, either of the past or currently, would have to have created 12 different deterrents against the Cylons, which should make for some exciting puzzle-solving television. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Erm, no. You are misunderstanding the whole thing about the constellations. The Twelve Colonies don&#039;t lie in them or something. They are just random stars seen in apparent groups from Earth, but in reality they are far apart. There is no such thing as &amp;quot;at the constellations&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Aside from that I don&#039;t really see the point in speculating that the beacon is somehow from Earth. That just creates far too many logic problems. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:27, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I see what you are saying, and I thought that too. But then it doesn&#039;t make sense that on Baltar&#039;s advice, the basestar (that is now infected) jumped to a particular point to check out the Lion&#039;s Head, and just by pure coincidence the virus probe was floating right around that location. Moreover, when the humans decided to jump to check out the Lion&#039;s Head, they jumped right next to where the basestar had jumped. For some strange reason, both the humans and the Cylons picked the same point in 3 dimensions around the Lion&#039;s Head for their jump destination. I agree, it doesn&#039;t make sense. But that&#039;s how the show is going. Plus, Baltar said the beacon was &amp;quot;human-made.&amp;quot; If it&#039;s not from the Earthlings, who could have put it there? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 21:24, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 5 models (spoilers) ==&lt;br /&gt;
On the listed on Season 3 on the front page, one of the articles contained an interview with Moore. {{spoiltext|He mentioned that the other 5 models of Cylons is a secret.  They are currently &amp;quot;boxed&amp;quot; and not in use, plus the 7 other cylon models do not know what the other 5 models look like.}}The reasons for this is unclear, but that is the info that Moore was willing to reveal during the interview.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s correct, but the answers to questions are generally supposed to be based on aired info. Until that information is shown on the air it&#039;s generally a spoiler (and is wrapped in spoiltext like I did above). That&#039;s actually something I wasn&#039;t aware of, so you just &amp;quot;spoiled&amp;quot; me. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Ooh, thanks for that, that confirms my theory on how both the Tricia/Grace/Dean spoilers and the Aaron/Tahmoh spoilers were both right at the same time. I&#039;m glad it was this :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:05, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Btw, do you have a link to this interview? It&#039;s possible to put the link (Spoiler covered) in the &amp;quot;questions&amp;quot; Section regarding this topic. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see this interview as well. I read the Aaron/Tahmoh interview and it seemed they were just speculating about the boxed thing. They&#039;re not Cylons, so how would they know? Tricia, Grace, and the other Cylons were the only actors privvy to &amp;quot;Life Aboard the Base Ship&amp;quot;, Ron Moore&#039;s Cylon bible. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:21, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Apparently there&#039;s a link on the [[Season 3]] page. I generally try to avoid spoilers, so that&#039;s the best I&#039;ve got. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:48, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My bad guys, I think I combined the spoilers from Tricia/Grace/Dean and Aarom/Tahmoh into one during my recollections. The interview I was referring to was the one done by Entertainment Weekly, in which they reveal a lot of the plot in the 2 hour pilot. I think I must have confused the actors&#039; discussion and speculations into the spoilers that Moore revealed. Sorry, guess we&#039;re just gonna have to wait and learn about the 5 models the hard way. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s looks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The hybrid&#039;s visual look was inspired by the precogs in Minority Report.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
Is that official (ie: mentioned by someone who works on the episode) or a guess? I mean, I can think of a few other things that could&#039;ve been the inspiration for the Hybrid&#039;s look - the pods the humans are placed in by the machines in [[w:The Matrix|The Matrix]] for example. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:52, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
: Barring an official source, this should be removed or reworded accordingly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It was mentioned in podcast, which this time starred Ron and an entire Cornell University class, sans cigarettes and Scotch. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:22, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I got it from the podcast. I should have mentioned that, but it was very late... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The Ship Who... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought this series was worth noting here, since it seems to predate any other notions of similar man/machine integration that I&#039;ve found. (It&#039;s certainly more relevant than a PC game.) We all know what a fan Ron Moore is of classic science fiction and I&#039;m sure he&#039;s got a few of these on his shelves. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Something from the 60s is good. It might be even older, but it&#039;s important to point out that the source of the concept lies in &amp;quot;classic&amp;quot; SciFi books and not modern television. What I really hated was a lengthy paragraph about the Shadow vessels in &amp;quot;Babylon 5&amp;quot;. I know that lots of B5 fans think that JMS invented lots of SciFi concepts and that all other shows just ripped it off, but it really gave the impression that B5 was somehow source material for the Hybrid, when in fact the shows&#039; writers draw on the same - even older - sources. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:36, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Concur with Serenity. Man/machine integration is nothing new. Here, we&#039;re technically not even talking of a &amp;quot;man&amp;quot; or even a human, but just a biologic computer. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:53, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Viral vs Biological ==&lt;br /&gt;
In the podcast for Torn RDM says:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The baseship gets there and it, lo and behold, it finds a device. A floating beacon left behind by the [[Thirteenth Tribe]]. Those Cylons pull that beacon onto their ship and an infection spreads through the Cylon baseship. Just something that was physically on the beacon, some bacteria or something that survived. And it proved deadly to everybody on the Cylon baseship.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That seems to answer the questions about its nature (biological) and about who left it. I didn&#039;t want to yank the question right away (nor resort to the forum Q&amp;amp;A format), but I thought those questions might best be moved down to analysis with this as the answer (with a podcast cite). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really see what the confusing is about anyways. People hear the Cylons &#039;&#039;speculating&#039;&#039; that it might spread to the Resurruction Ship and immediately think that speculation is fact.&lt;br /&gt;
:A more valid oberservation is that Raiders and Centurions were incapitated too without a direct vector of attack. But that can very easily be explained by their link to the Hybrid and that they got screwed up when the Hybrid died. I think RDM mentions that Hybrid link too in the podcast. And upon some further thinking, there is a vector with the Raiders, since they are stored on the baseship between deployments --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Who is vulnerable to the Virus? ==&lt;br /&gt;
First, do we actually know that it only affect Cylons?  No human has been exposed to any sort of contact, assuming the Baltar was in an airtight suit.  Presumably, if the virus were released on all ships in the Fleet, any hidden Cylon agents would keel over dead.  Putting aside the question of wiping out the Cylon race, killing all Cylon agents hidden in the Fleet seems like a good idea, except of course for Athena.&lt;br /&gt;
Would President Roslin be affected by the Virus, because of her transfusion from Hera?  Would Hera be affected? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 15:40, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d say that both humans and Cylons are vulnerable in theory. Teasers for the next episode show a Marine team going to the basestar without any protection. Either they are vulnerable or just very careless. Or more likely, they don&#039;t know what happened and don&#039;t consider a possible infection with some disease. But it remains to be seen if they&#039;ll be infected --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d also like to echo Serenity&#039;s sentiments. Also, much of the Cylons reaction to the virus is more out of fear and ignorance mixed with some common sense. For instance, it makes absolutely no logical sense that a biological virus or bacetria could be transmitted from a body into the resurrection ship, since the download process is &#039;&#039;technological&#039;&#039; in nature. (Therefore, the illness or physical sickness itself would not be transferred, merely the memory of having it.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition, Baltar was in a [[flight suit]], which is air tight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:57, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::As you said they act of fear. They don&#039;t know what they are dealing with and speculate that it might be transmitted with downloading (someone even says &amp;quot;could&amp;quot;). But they take precautions and keep the Resurrection Ship out of range. That doesn&#039;t mean that we should think that it can in fact be transmitted that way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90700</id>
		<title>Talk:Torn/Archive2</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90700"/>
		<updated>2006-11-11T02:24:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Origin of the virus */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Summary Split?==&lt;br /&gt;
We&#039;ve taken to splitting the episode summaries between the Fleet and Baltar. Am I alone in thinking this isn&#039;t the best method? I&#039;d prefer the summary going through the events of the episode chronologically. Especially now that the two storylines are beginning to converge. It was fine in Collaborators, where the two threads didn&#039;t effect each other. But now, someone reading the summary encounters a mention of the dead basestar at the end of the Galactica summary before getting to any of the details in the Cylon summary. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 00:00, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally I think it&#039;s fine. It depends on how much interaction there is between the two story lines in the next episode. If they signicantly interact, then this summary may require change, but for now I think it&#039;s ok.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:14, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Actually, we&#039;ve been describing each story line separately since &amp;quot;[[33]]&amp;quot;. It really makes the story lines easier to keep track of for both the viewer and the editors. However, if there&#039;s a better way, I would be interested in a discussion of it. What method or methods would you suggest? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:18, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: I think it&#039;s a fine format in most cases. It certainly worked for Collaborators, and it worked well for the Helo arc of Season One. However, in those instances, the main plot and the sides-story didn&#039;t interact, so knowing how the Galactica side of the episode pans out before you read what happened to Helo, it isn&#039;t a problem. But here we have the Galactica storyline ending with something that was explained in the Cylon storyline. I guess I&#039;m just concerned that some reading it without having seen the episode would be very confused. Something as simple as putting the Cylon half of the summary first I think would clear up any potential confusion, especially considering that nothing in the Galactica story effects the Cylon story. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:56, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Promotional pictures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Look at these pictures:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kthzq/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kw117/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Where do they come from? I don&#039;t remember such scene in &amp;quot;Torn&amp;quot;... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 01:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.s. All promo images are also on the wiki. As for those images, when I was uploading new promo images tonight, I noticed those, and I was like... &amp;quot;I never saw them.&amp;quot;. if they show up in another episode, I will recategorize them in the media wiki. [[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:53, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:They may have come from a deleted scene as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::They might have been moved to the next episode &amp;quot;A Measure of Salvation&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:13, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Can anyone identify the patch on Baltar&#039;s flight suit? It looks like it has a picture of an old style Raider on it. http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000ksya5/g248 -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::That&#039;s the [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/albums/s1waterpromos/normal_BSG04EP_7727CS.JPG standard Raptor patch]. That&#039;s the Raptor squadron that Sharon belongs to. We maybe ought to crop some of the patches off uniforms and have a patches and insignias section of the uniforms page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Hmm. Odd I never noticed that before. Seen like something I would&#039;ve seen before. I thought maybe it was squandron, like Primus or The Vigilantes. An article on patches would be interesting. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:24, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Oh, no. I think you&#039;re right. I think that&#039;s exactly what it is. I was just saying that was a &amp;quot;normal&amp;quot; squadron patch for a Raptor (as in we&#039;ve seen it before). If you would be willing to wade through the promo photos and screencaps ([http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/index.php some here as well]) to identify pictures with good patch shots in them, I&#039;d be willing to crop down to the patches and upload them and help start either a new section on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] or a subarticle of that page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:37, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I have no idea how to phrase it or if i remember correctly, but didn&#039;t Sharon (athena) start talking incoherently when they jump to the Lions Head? Is she infected? We don&#039;t see them jump back... [[User:Puneypunk|Puneypunk]] 06:26, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:No. She wasn&#039;t infected. She was shocked at what she saw and quoted scripture. She said &amp;quot;When god&#039;s anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:10, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Helo as XO ==&lt;br /&gt;
Surely if he was the XO, Adama would of promoted him to at least Major, if not Colonel, by now? I&#039;m not disputing that Helo is acting as Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;eyes and ears&amp;quot; but I&#039;m surpirsed that he is being described as XO.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:39, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Rank isn&#039;t everything. An officer can also &amp;quot;outrank&amp;quot; someone with a nominally higher rank just by position. Adama probably still plans for Tigh to return some day and has Helo as interim solution. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It&#039;s quite possible that Helo hasn&#039;t been promoted because he hasn&#039;t met the minimum time-in-grade for a full Lieutenant yet. Kat&#039;s quick rise from Ensign to Lieutenant seems to contradict this, however. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::To me, his job seems to be something of a cross between Gaeta&#039;s former position and Tigh&#039;s.  It may be that he fell into his current roll while Galactica was understaffed and it has yet to be formalised or revised back to a more standard one.  We have seen that the crew is still readjusting to some extent and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if there are still some adjustments yet to be made. --[[User:Ryan H|Ryan H]] 12:35, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don&#039;t think minimum time in-grade is all that important anymore, all things considered. I also think that Helo and Kat are both excellent candidates for Captain, if they aren&#039;t already. Kat and Starbuck could be squadron leaders, Apollo could be CAG, and Helo could be Gaeta, since Gaeta is the new Baltar. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Origin of the virus ==&lt;br /&gt;
Far too speculative to put on the main page, but could the virus have been planted by the other 5 models?  Perhaps a split occurred within the Cylons soon after they took human form, and the other 5 have decided to strike at the ones that we know.&lt;br /&gt;
If indeed the virus is a hybrid biological / technological nature as surmised in the Questions, it would support the theory of other Cylons having created it. --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 13:29, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, if it was placed by the other 5, then it may be logical to asume that the other 5 went off in search of and, possibly, found earth, leaving this &amp;quot;viral pod&amp;quot; behind to ward off the 7. Unfortunately its all wild speculation at this point. --[[User:Vladimir|Vladimir]] 13:34, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
If the virus was placed at the Lion&#039;s Head by Eathlings to dissuade potential Earth-seekers, it was either placed when they left Kobol a long time ago, or sometime more recently. If they placed it when they left Kobol, that would suggest that it was either an accident that it affected the Cylons negatively, or that they could somehow forsee that the Cylons would be looking for them. Otherwise, it could have been placed more recently by Earthlings (either of Cylon or human extraction), meaning the inhabitants of Earth are aware that Cylons are looking for them, and they don&#039;t want the Cylons to find them. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Moreover, does this mean that at every one of the 12 constellations, there will be a new anti-Cylon trap? The Cylons won&#039;t fall for the virus again, clearly, so the Earthlings, either of the past or currently, would have to have created 12 different deterrents against the Cylons, which should make for some exciting puzzle-solving television. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Erm, no. You are misunderstanding the whole thing about the constellations. The Twelve Colonies don&#039;t lie in them or something. They are just random stars seen in apparent groups from Earth, but in reality they are far apart. There is no such thing as &amp;quot;at the constellations&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Aside from that I don&#039;t really see the point in speculating that the beacon is somehow from Earth. That just creates far too many logic problems. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:27, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I see what you are saying, and I thought that too. But then it doesn&#039;t make sense that on Baltar&#039;s advice, the basestar (that is now infected) jumped to a particular point to check out the Lion&#039;s Head, and just by pure coincidence the virus probe was floating right around that location. Moreover, when the humans decided to jump to check out the Lion&#039;s Head, they jumped right next to where the basestar had jumped. For some strange reason, both the humans and the Cylons picked the same point in 3 dimensions around the Lion&#039;s Head for their jump destination. I agree, it doesn&#039;t make sense. But that&#039;s how the show is going. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 21:24, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 5 models (spoilers) ==&lt;br /&gt;
On the listed on Season 3 on the front page, one of the articles contained an interview with Moore. {{spoiltext|He mentioned that the other 5 models of Cylons is a secret.  They are currently &amp;quot;boxed&amp;quot; and not in use, plus the 7 other cylon models do not know what the other 5 models look like.}}The reasons for this is unclear, but that is the info that Moore was willing to reveal during the interview.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s correct, but the answers to questions are generally supposed to be based on aired info. Until that information is shown on the air it&#039;s generally a spoiler (and is wrapped in spoiltext like I did above). That&#039;s actually something I wasn&#039;t aware of, so you just &amp;quot;spoiled&amp;quot; me. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Ooh, thanks for that, that confirms my theory on how both the Tricia/Grace/Dean spoilers and the Aaron/Tahmoh spoilers were both right at the same time. I&#039;m glad it was this :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:05, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Btw, do you have a link to this interview? It&#039;s possible to put the link (Spoiler covered) in the &amp;quot;questions&amp;quot; Section regarding this topic. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see this interview as well. I read the Aaron/Tahmoh interview and it seemed they were just speculating about the boxed thing. They&#039;re not Cylons, so how would they know? Tricia, Grace, and the other Cylons were the only actors privvy to &amp;quot;Life Aboard the Base Ship&amp;quot;, Ron Moore&#039;s Cylon bible. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:21, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Apparently there&#039;s a link on the [[Season 3]] page. I generally try to avoid spoilers, so that&#039;s the best I&#039;ve got. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:48, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My bad guys, I think I combined the spoilers from Tricia/Grace/Dean and Aarom/Tahmoh into one during my recollections. The interview I was referring to was the one done by Entertainment Weekly, in which they reveal a lot of the plot in the 2 hour pilot. I think I must have confused the actors&#039; discussion and speculations into the spoilers that Moore revealed. Sorry, guess we&#039;re just gonna have to wait and learn about the 5 models the hard way. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s looks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The hybrid&#039;s visual look was inspired by the precogs in Minority Report.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
Is that official (ie: mentioned by someone who works on the episode) or a guess? I mean, I can think of a few other things that could&#039;ve been the inspiration for the Hybrid&#039;s look - the pods the humans are placed in by the machines in [[w:The Matrix|The Matrix]] for example. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:52, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
: Barring an official source, this should be removed or reworded accordingly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It was mentioned in podcast, which this time starred Ron and an entire Cornell University class, sans cigarettes and Scotch. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:22, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I got it from the podcast. I should have mentioned that, but it was very late... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The Ship Who... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought this series was worth noting here, since it seems to predate any other notions of similar man/machine integration that I&#039;ve found. (It&#039;s certainly more relevant than a PC game.) We all know what a fan Ron Moore is of classic science fiction and I&#039;m sure he&#039;s got a few of these on his shelves. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Something from the 60s is good. It might be even older, but it&#039;s important to point out that the source of the concept lies in &amp;quot;classic&amp;quot; SciFi books and not modern television. What I really hated was a lengthy paragraph about the Shadow vessels in &amp;quot;Babylon 5&amp;quot;. I know that lots of B5 fans think that JMS invented lots of SciFi concepts and that all other shows just ripped it off, but it really gave the impression that B5 was somehow source material for the Hybrid, when in fact the shows&#039; writers draw on the same - even older - sources. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:36, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Concur with Serenity. Man/machine integration is nothing new. Here, we&#039;re technically not even talking of a &amp;quot;man&amp;quot; or even a human, but just a biologic computer. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:53, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Viral vs Biological ==&lt;br /&gt;
In the podcast for Torn RDM says:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The baseship gets there and it, lo and behold, it finds a device. A floating beacon left behind by the [[Thirteenth Tribe]]. Those Cylons pull that beacon onto their ship and an infection spreads through the Cylon baseship. Just something that was physically on the beacon, some bacteria or something that survived. And it proved deadly to everybody on the Cylon baseship.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That seems to answer the questions about its nature (biological) and about who left it. I didn&#039;t want to yank the question right away (nor resort to the forum Q&amp;amp;A format), but I thought those questions might best be moved down to analysis with this as the answer (with a podcast cite). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really see what the confusing is about anyways. People hear the Cylons &#039;&#039;speculating&#039;&#039; that it might spread to the Resurruction Ship and immediately think that speculation is fact.&lt;br /&gt;
:A more valid oberservation is that Raiders and Centurions were incapitated too without a direct vector of attack. But that can very easily be explained by their link to the Hybrid and that they got screwed up when the Hybrid died. I think RDM mentions that Hybrid link too in the podcast. And upon some further thinking, there is a vector with the Raiders, since they are stored on the baseship between deployments --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Who is vulnerable to the Virus? ==&lt;br /&gt;
First, do we actually know that it only affect Cylons?  No human has been exposed to any sort of contact, assuming the Baltar was in an airtight suit.  Presumably, if the virus were released on all ships in the Fleet, any hidden Cylon agents would keel over dead.  Putting aside the question of wiping out the Cylon race, killing all Cylon agents hidden in the Fleet seems like a good idea, except of course for Athena.&lt;br /&gt;
Would President Roslin be affected by the Virus, because of her transfusion from Hera?  Would Hera be affected? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 15:40, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d say that both humans and Cylons are vulnerable in theory. Teasers for the next episode show a Marine team going to the basestar without any protection. Either they are vulnerable or just very careless. Or more likely, they don&#039;t know what happened and don&#039;t consider a possible infection with some disease. But it remains to be seen if they&#039;ll be infected --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d also like to echo Serenity&#039;s sentiments. Also, much of the Cylons reaction to the virus is more out of fear and ignorance mixed with some common sense. For instance, it makes absolutely no logical sense that a biological virus or bacetria could be transmitted from a body into the resurrection ship, since the download process is &#039;&#039;technological&#039;&#039; in nature. (Therefore, the illness or physical sickness itself would not be transferred, merely the memory of having it.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition, Baltar was in a [[flight suit]], which is air tight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:57, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::As you said they act of fear. They don&#039;t know what they are dealing with and speculate that it might be transmitted with downloading (someone even says &amp;quot;could&amp;quot;). But they take precautions and keep the Resurrection Ship out of range. That doesn&#039;t mean that we should think that it can in fact be transmitted that way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90699</id>
		<title>Talk:Torn/Archive2</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90699"/>
		<updated>2006-11-11T02:23:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Origin of the virus */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Summary Split?==&lt;br /&gt;
We&#039;ve taken to splitting the episode summaries between the Fleet and Baltar. Am I alone in thinking this isn&#039;t the best method? I&#039;d prefer the summary going through the events of the episode chronologically. Especially now that the two storylines are beginning to converge. It was fine in Collaborators, where the two threads didn&#039;t effect each other. But now, someone reading the summary encounters a mention of the dead basestar at the end of the Galactica summary before getting to any of the details in the Cylon summary. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 00:00, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally I think it&#039;s fine. It depends on how much interaction there is between the two story lines in the next episode. If they signicantly interact, then this summary may require change, but for now I think it&#039;s ok.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:14, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Actually, we&#039;ve been describing each story line separately since &amp;quot;[[33]]&amp;quot;. It really makes the story lines easier to keep track of for both the viewer and the editors. However, if there&#039;s a better way, I would be interested in a discussion of it. What method or methods would you suggest? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:18, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: I think it&#039;s a fine format in most cases. It certainly worked for Collaborators, and it worked well for the Helo arc of Season One. However, in those instances, the main plot and the sides-story didn&#039;t interact, so knowing how the Galactica side of the episode pans out before you read what happened to Helo, it isn&#039;t a problem. But here we have the Galactica storyline ending with something that was explained in the Cylon storyline. I guess I&#039;m just concerned that some reading it without having seen the episode would be very confused. Something as simple as putting the Cylon half of the summary first I think would clear up any potential confusion, especially considering that nothing in the Galactica story effects the Cylon story. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:56, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Promotional pictures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Look at these pictures:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kthzq/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kw117/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Where do they come from? I don&#039;t remember such scene in &amp;quot;Torn&amp;quot;... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 01:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.s. All promo images are also on the wiki. As for those images, when I was uploading new promo images tonight, I noticed those, and I was like... &amp;quot;I never saw them.&amp;quot;. if they show up in another episode, I will recategorize them in the media wiki. [[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:53, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:They may have come from a deleted scene as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::They might have been moved to the next episode &amp;quot;A Measure of Salvation&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:13, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Can anyone identify the patch on Baltar&#039;s flight suit? It looks like it has a picture of an old style Raider on it. http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000ksya5/g248 -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::That&#039;s the [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/albums/s1waterpromos/normal_BSG04EP_7727CS.JPG standard Raptor patch]. That&#039;s the Raptor squadron that Sharon belongs to. We maybe ought to crop some of the patches off uniforms and have a patches and insignias section of the uniforms page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Hmm. Odd I never noticed that before. Seen like something I would&#039;ve seen before. I thought maybe it was squandron, like Primus or The Vigilantes. An article on patches would be interesting. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:24, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Oh, no. I think you&#039;re right. I think that&#039;s exactly what it is. I was just saying that was a &amp;quot;normal&amp;quot; squadron patch for a Raptor (as in we&#039;ve seen it before). If you would be willing to wade through the promo photos and screencaps ([http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/index.php some here as well]) to identify pictures with good patch shots in them, I&#039;d be willing to crop down to the patches and upload them and help start either a new section on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] or a subarticle of that page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:37, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I have no idea how to phrase it or if i remember correctly, but didn&#039;t Sharon (athena) start talking incoherently when they jump to the Lions Head? Is she infected? We don&#039;t see them jump back... [[User:Puneypunk|Puneypunk]] 06:26, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:No. She wasn&#039;t infected. She was shocked at what she saw and quoted scripture. She said &amp;quot;When god&#039;s anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:10, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Helo as XO ==&lt;br /&gt;
Surely if he was the XO, Adama would of promoted him to at least Major, if not Colonel, by now? I&#039;m not disputing that Helo is acting as Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;eyes and ears&amp;quot; but I&#039;m surpirsed that he is being described as XO.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:39, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Rank isn&#039;t everything. An officer can also &amp;quot;outrank&amp;quot; someone with a nominally higher rank just by position. Adama probably still plans for Tigh to return some day and has Helo as interim solution. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It&#039;s quite possible that Helo hasn&#039;t been promoted because he hasn&#039;t met the minimum time-in-grade for a full Lieutenant yet. Kat&#039;s quick rise from Ensign to Lieutenant seems to contradict this, however. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::To me, his job seems to be something of a cross between Gaeta&#039;s former position and Tigh&#039;s.  It may be that he fell into his current roll while Galactica was understaffed and it has yet to be formalised or revised back to a more standard one.  We have seen that the crew is still readjusting to some extent and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if there are still some adjustments yet to be made. --[[User:Ryan H|Ryan H]] 12:35, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don&#039;t think minimum time in-grade is all that important anymore, all things considered. I also think that Helo and Kat are both excellent candidates for Captain, if they aren&#039;t already. Kat and Starbuck could be squadron leaders, Apollo could be CAG, and Helo could be Gaeta, since Gaeta is the new Baltar. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Origin of the virus ==&lt;br /&gt;
Far too speculative to put on the main page, but could the virus have been planted by the other 5 models?  Perhaps a split occurred within the Cylons soon after they took human form, and the other 5 have decided to strike at the ones that we know.&lt;br /&gt;
If indeed the virus is a hybrid biological / technological nature as surmised in the Questions, it would support the theory of other Cylons having created it. --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 13:29, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, if it was placed by the other 5, then it may be logical to asume that the other 5 went off in search of and, possibly, found earth, leaving this &amp;quot;viral pod&amp;quot; behind to ward off the 7. Unfortunately its all wild speculation at this point. --[[User:Vladimir|Vladimir]] 13:34, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
If the virus was placed at the Lion&#039;s Head by Eathlings to dissuade potential Earth-seekers, it was either placed when they left Kobol a long time ago, or sometime more recently. If they placed it when they left Kobol, that would suggest that it was either an accident that it affected the Cylons negatively, or that they could somehow forsee that the Cylons would be looking for them. Otherwise, it could have been placed more recently by Earthlings (either of Cylon or human extraction), meaning the inhabitants of Earth are aware that Cylons are looking for them, and they don&#039;t want the Cylons to find them. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Moreover, does this mean that at every one of the 12 constellations, there will be a new anti-Cylon trap? The Cylons won&#039;t fall for the virus again, clearly, so the Earthlings, either of the past or currently, would have to have created 12 different deterrents against the Cylons, which should make for some exciting puzzle-solving television. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Erm, no. You are misunderstanding the whole thing about the constellations. The Twelve Colonies don&#039;t lie in them or something. They are just random stars seen in apparent groups from Earth, but in reality they are far apart. There is no such thing as &amp;quot;at the constellations&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Aside from that I don&#039;t really see the point in speculating that the beacon is somehow from Earth. That just creates far too many logic problems. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:27, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I see what you are saying, and I thought that too. But then it doesn&#039;t make sense that on Baltar&#039;s advice, the basestar (that is now infected) jumped to a particular point to check out the Lion&#039;s Head, and just by pure coincidence the virus probe was floating right around that location. Moreover, when the humans decided to jump to check out the Lion&#039;s Head, they jumped right next to where the basestar had jumped. For some strange reason, both the humans and the Cylons picked the same point in 3 dimensions around the Lion&#039;s Head for their jump destination. I agree, it doesn&#039;t make sense. But that&#039;s how the show is going.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 5 models (spoilers) ==&lt;br /&gt;
On the listed on Season 3 on the front page, one of the articles contained an interview with Moore. {{spoiltext|He mentioned that the other 5 models of Cylons is a secret.  They are currently &amp;quot;boxed&amp;quot; and not in use, plus the 7 other cylon models do not know what the other 5 models look like.}}The reasons for this is unclear, but that is the info that Moore was willing to reveal during the interview.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s correct, but the answers to questions are generally supposed to be based on aired info. Until that information is shown on the air it&#039;s generally a spoiler (and is wrapped in spoiltext like I did above). That&#039;s actually something I wasn&#039;t aware of, so you just &amp;quot;spoiled&amp;quot; me. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Ooh, thanks for that, that confirms my theory on how both the Tricia/Grace/Dean spoilers and the Aaron/Tahmoh spoilers were both right at the same time. I&#039;m glad it was this :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:05, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Btw, do you have a link to this interview? It&#039;s possible to put the link (Spoiler covered) in the &amp;quot;questions&amp;quot; Section regarding this topic. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see this interview as well. I read the Aaron/Tahmoh interview and it seemed they were just speculating about the boxed thing. They&#039;re not Cylons, so how would they know? Tricia, Grace, and the other Cylons were the only actors privvy to &amp;quot;Life Aboard the Base Ship&amp;quot;, Ron Moore&#039;s Cylon bible. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:21, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Apparently there&#039;s a link on the [[Season 3]] page. I generally try to avoid spoilers, so that&#039;s the best I&#039;ve got. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:48, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My bad guys, I think I combined the spoilers from Tricia/Grace/Dean and Aarom/Tahmoh into one during my recollections. The interview I was referring to was the one done by Entertainment Weekly, in which they reveal a lot of the plot in the 2 hour pilot. I think I must have confused the actors&#039; discussion and speculations into the spoilers that Moore revealed. Sorry, guess we&#039;re just gonna have to wait and learn about the 5 models the hard way. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s looks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The hybrid&#039;s visual look was inspired by the precogs in Minority Report.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
Is that official (ie: mentioned by someone who works on the episode) or a guess? I mean, I can think of a few other things that could&#039;ve been the inspiration for the Hybrid&#039;s look - the pods the humans are placed in by the machines in [[w:The Matrix|The Matrix]] for example. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:52, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
: Barring an official source, this should be removed or reworded accordingly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It was mentioned in podcast, which this time starred Ron and an entire Cornell University class, sans cigarettes and Scotch. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:22, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I got it from the podcast. I should have mentioned that, but it was very late... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The Ship Who... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought this series was worth noting here, since it seems to predate any other notions of similar man/machine integration that I&#039;ve found. (It&#039;s certainly more relevant than a PC game.) We all know what a fan Ron Moore is of classic science fiction and I&#039;m sure he&#039;s got a few of these on his shelves. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Something from the 60s is good. It might be even older, but it&#039;s important to point out that the source of the concept lies in &amp;quot;classic&amp;quot; SciFi books and not modern television. What I really hated was a lengthy paragraph about the Shadow vessels in &amp;quot;Babylon 5&amp;quot;. I know that lots of B5 fans think that JMS invented lots of SciFi concepts and that all other shows just ripped it off, but it really gave the impression that B5 was somehow source material for the Hybrid, when in fact the shows&#039; writers draw on the same - even older - sources. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:36, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Concur with Serenity. Man/machine integration is nothing new. Here, we&#039;re technically not even talking of a &amp;quot;man&amp;quot; or even a human, but just a biologic computer. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:53, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Viral vs Biological ==&lt;br /&gt;
In the podcast for Torn RDM says:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The baseship gets there and it, lo and behold, it finds a device. A floating beacon left behind by the [[Thirteenth Tribe]]. Those Cylons pull that beacon onto their ship and an infection spreads through the Cylon baseship. Just something that was physically on the beacon, some bacteria or something that survived. And it proved deadly to everybody on the Cylon baseship.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That seems to answer the questions about its nature (biological) and about who left it. I didn&#039;t want to yank the question right away (nor resort to the forum Q&amp;amp;A format), but I thought those questions might best be moved down to analysis with this as the answer (with a podcast cite). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really see what the confusing is about anyways. People hear the Cylons &#039;&#039;speculating&#039;&#039; that it might spread to the Resurruction Ship and immediately think that speculation is fact.&lt;br /&gt;
:A more valid oberservation is that Raiders and Centurions were incapitated too without a direct vector of attack. But that can very easily be explained by their link to the Hybrid and that they got screwed up when the Hybrid died. I think RDM mentions that Hybrid link too in the podcast. And upon some further thinking, there is a vector with the Raiders, since they are stored on the baseship between deployments --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Who is vulnerable to the Virus? ==&lt;br /&gt;
First, do we actually know that it only affect Cylons?  No human has been exposed to any sort of contact, assuming the Baltar was in an airtight suit.  Presumably, if the virus were released on all ships in the Fleet, any hidden Cylon agents would keel over dead.  Putting aside the question of wiping out the Cylon race, killing all Cylon agents hidden in the Fleet seems like a good idea, except of course for Athena.&lt;br /&gt;
Would President Roslin be affected by the Virus, because of her transfusion from Hera?  Would Hera be affected? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 15:40, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d say that both humans and Cylons are vulnerable in theory. Teasers for the next episode show a Marine team going to the basestar without any protection. Either they are vulnerable or just very careless. Or more likely, they don&#039;t know what happened and don&#039;t consider a possible infection with some disease. But it remains to be seen if they&#039;ll be infected --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d also like to echo Serenity&#039;s sentiments. Also, much of the Cylons reaction to the virus is more out of fear and ignorance mixed with some common sense. For instance, it makes absolutely no logical sense that a biological virus or bacetria could be transmitted from a body into the resurrection ship, since the download process is &#039;&#039;technological&#039;&#039; in nature. (Therefore, the illness or physical sickness itself would not be transferred, merely the memory of having it.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition, Baltar was in a [[flight suit]], which is air tight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:57, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::As you said they act of fear. They don&#039;t know what they are dealing with and speculate that it might be transmitted with downloading (someone even says &amp;quot;could&amp;quot;). But they take precautions and keep the Resurrection Ship out of range. That doesn&#039;t mean that we should think that it can in fact be transmitted that way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90659</id>
		<title>Talk:Torn/Archive2</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90659"/>
		<updated>2006-11-10T23:17:53Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Origin of the virus */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Summary Split?==&lt;br /&gt;
We&#039;ve taken to splitting the episode summaries between the Fleet and Baltar. Am I alone in thinking this isn&#039;t the best method? I&#039;d prefer the summary going through the events of the episode chronologically. Especially now that the two storylines are beginning to converge. It was fine in Collaborators, where the two threads didn&#039;t effect each other. But now, someone reading the summary encounters a mention of the dead basestar at the end of the Galactica summary before getting to any of the details in the Cylon summary. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 00:00, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally I think it&#039;s fine. It depends on how much interaction there is between the two story lines in the next episode. If they signicantly interact, then this summary may require change, but for now I think it&#039;s ok.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:14, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Actually, we&#039;ve been describing each story line separately since &amp;quot;[[33]]&amp;quot;. It really makes the story lines easier to keep track of for both the viewer and the editors. However, if there&#039;s a better way, I would be interested in a discussion of it. What method or methods would you suggest? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:18, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: I think it&#039;s a fine format in most cases. It certainly worked for Collaborators, and it worked well for the Helo arc of Season One. However, in those instances, the main plot and the sides-story didn&#039;t interact, so knowing how the Galactica side of the episode pans out before you read what happened to Helo, it isn&#039;t a problem. But here we have the Galactica storyline ending with something that was explained in the Cylon storyline. I guess I&#039;m just concerned that some reading it without having seen the episode would be very confused. Something as simple as putting the Cylon half of the summary first I think would clear up any potential confusion, especially considering that nothing in the Galactica story effects the Cylon story. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:56, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Promotional pictures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Look at these pictures:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kthzq/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kw117/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Where do they come from? I don&#039;t remember such scene in &amp;quot;Torn&amp;quot;... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 01:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.s. All promo images are also on the wiki. As for those images, when I was uploading new promo images tonight, I noticed those, and I was like... &amp;quot;I never saw them.&amp;quot;. if they show up in another episode, I will recategorize them in the media wiki. [[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:53, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:They may have come from a deleted scene as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::They might have been moved to the next episode &amp;quot;A Measure of Salvation&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:13, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Can anyone identify the patch on Baltar&#039;s flight suit? It looks like it has a picture of an old style Raider on it. http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000ksya5/g248 -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::That&#039;s the [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/albums/s1waterpromos/normal_BSG04EP_7727CS.JPG standard Raptor patch]. That&#039;s the Raptor squadron that Sharon belongs to. We maybe ought to crop some of the patches off uniforms and have a patches and insignias section of the uniforms page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Hmm. Odd I never noticed that before. Seen like something I would&#039;ve seen before. I thought maybe it was squandron, like Primus or The Vigilantes. An article on patches would be interesting. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:24, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Oh, no. I think you&#039;re right. I think that&#039;s exactly what it is. I was just saying that was a &amp;quot;normal&amp;quot; squadron patch for a Raptor (as in we&#039;ve seen it before). If you would be willing to wade through the promo photos and screencaps ([http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/index.php some here as well]) to identify pictures with good patch shots in them, I&#039;d be willing to crop down to the patches and upload them and help start either a new section on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] or a subarticle of that page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:37, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I have no idea how to phrase it or if i remember correctly, but didn&#039;t Sharon (athena) start talking incoherently when they jump to the Lions Head? Is she infected? We don&#039;t see them jump back... [[User:Puneypunk|Puneypunk]] 06:26, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:No. She wasn&#039;t infected. She was shocked at what she saw and quoted scripture. She said &amp;quot;When god&#039;s anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:10, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Helo as XO ==&lt;br /&gt;
Surely if he was the XO, Adama would of promoted him to at least Major, if not Colonel, by now? I&#039;m not disputing that Helo is acting as Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;eyes and ears&amp;quot; but I&#039;m surpirsed that he is being described as XO.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:39, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Rank isn&#039;t everything. An officer can also &amp;quot;outrank&amp;quot; someone with a nominally higher rank just by position. Adama probably still plans for Tigh to return some day and has Helo as interim solution. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It&#039;s quite possible that Helo hasn&#039;t been promoted because he hasn&#039;t met the minimum time-in-grade for a full Lieutenant yet. Kat&#039;s quick rise from Ensign to Lieutenant seems to contradict this, however. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::To me, his job seems to be something of a cross between Gaeta&#039;s former position and Tigh&#039;s.  It may be that he fell into his current roll while Galactica was understaffed and it has yet to be formalised or revised back to a more standard one.  We have seen that the crew is still readjusting to some extent and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if there are still some adjustments yet to be made. --[[User:Ryan H|Ryan H]] 12:35, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don&#039;t think minimum time in-grade is all that important anymore, all things considered. I also think that Helo and Kat are both excellent candidates for Captain, if they aren&#039;t already. Kat and Starbuck could be squadron leaders, Apollo could be CAG, and Helo could be Gaeta, since Gaeta is the new Baltar. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Origin of the virus ==&lt;br /&gt;
Far too speculative to put on the main page, but could the virus have been planted by the other 5 models?  Perhaps a split occurred within the Cylons soon after they took human form, and the other 5 have decided to strike at the ones that we know.&lt;br /&gt;
If indeed the virus is a hybrid biological / technological nature as surmised in the Questions, it would support the theory of other Cylons having created it. --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 13:29, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, if it was placed by the other 5, then it may be logical to asume that the other 5 went off in search of and, possibly, found earth, leaving this &amp;quot;viral pod&amp;quot; behind to ward off the 7. Unfortunately its all wild speculation at this point. --[[User:Vladimir|Vladimir]] 13:34, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
If the virus was placed at the Lion&#039;s Head by Eathlings to dissuade potential Earth-seekers, it was either placed when they left Kobol a long time ago, or sometime more recently. If they placed it when they left Kobol, that would suggest that it was either an accident that it affected the Cylons negatively, or that they could somehow forsee that the Cylons would be looking for them. Otherwise, it could have been placed more recently by Earthlings (either of Cylon or human extraction), meaning the inhabitants of Earth are aware that Cylons are looking for them, and they don&#039;t want the Cylons to find them. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Moreover, does this mean that at every one of the 12 constellations, there will be a new anti-Cylon trap? The Cylons won&#039;t fall for the virus again, clearly, so the Earthlings, either of the past or currently, would have to have created 12 different deterrents against the Cylons, which should make for some exciting puzzle-solving television. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 5 models (spoilers) ==&lt;br /&gt;
On the listed on Season 3 on the front page, one of the articles contained an interview with Moore. {{spoiltext|He mentioned that the other 5 models of Cylons is a secret.  They are currently &amp;quot;boxed&amp;quot; and not in use, plus the 7 other cylon models do not know what the other 5 models look like.}}The reasons for this is unclear, but that is the info that Moore was willing to reveal during the interview.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s correct, but the answers to questions are generally supposed to be based on aired info. Until that information is shown on the air it&#039;s generally a spoiler (and is wrapped in spoiltext like I did above). That&#039;s actually something I wasn&#039;t aware of, so you just &amp;quot;spoiled&amp;quot; me. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Ooh, thanks for that, that confirms my theory on how both the Tricia/Grace/Dean spoilers and the Aaron/Tahmoh spoilers were both right at the same time. I&#039;m glad it was this :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:05, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Btw, do you have a link to this interview? It&#039;s possible to put the link (Spoiler covered) in the &amp;quot;questions&amp;quot; Section regarding this topic. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see this interview as well. I read the Aaron/Tahmoh interview and it seemed they were just speculating about the boxed thing. They&#039;re not Cylons, so how would they know? Tricia, Grace, and the other Cylons were the only actors privvy to &amp;quot;Life Aboard the Base Ship&amp;quot;, Ron Moore&#039;s Cylon bible. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:21, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Apparently there&#039;s a link on the [[Season 3]] page. I generally try to avoid spoilers, so that&#039;s the best I&#039;ve got. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:48, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My bad guys, I think I combined the spoilers from Tricia/Grace/Dean and Aarom/Tahmoh into one during my recollections. The interview I was referring to was the one done by Entertainment Weekly, in which they reveal a lot of the plot in the 2 hour pilot. I think I must have confused the actors&#039; discussion and speculations into the spoilers that Moore revealed. Sorry, guess we&#039;re just gonna have to wait and learn about the 5 models the hard way. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s looks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The hybrid&#039;s visual look was inspired by the precogs in Minority Report.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
Is that official (ie: mentioned by someone who works on the episode) or a guess? I mean, I can think of a few other things that could&#039;ve been the inspiration for the Hybrid&#039;s look - the pods the humans are placed in by the machines in [[w:The Matrix|The Matrix]] for example. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:52, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
: Barring an official source, this should be removed or reworded accordingly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It was mentioned in podcast, which this time starred Ron and an entire Cornell University class, sans cigarettes and Scotch. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:22, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I got it from the podcast. I should have mentioned that, but it was very late... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The Ship Who... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought this series was worth noting here, since it seems to predate any other notions of similar man/machine integration that I&#039;ve found. (It&#039;s certainly more relevant than a PC game.) We all know what a fan Ron Moore is of classic science fiction and I&#039;m sure he&#039;s got a few of these on his shelves. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Something from the 60s is good. It might be even older, but it&#039;s important to point out that the source of the concept lies in &amp;quot;classic&amp;quot; SciFi books and not modern television. What I really hated was a lengthy paragraph about the Shadow vessels in &amp;quot;Babylon 5&amp;quot;. I know that lots of B5 fans think that JMS invented lots of SciFi concepts and that all other shows just ripped it off, but it really gave the impression that B5 was somehow source material for the Hybrid, when in fact the shows&#039; writers draw on the same - even older - sources. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:36, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Concur with Serenity. Man/machine integration is nothing new. Here, we&#039;re technically not even talking of a &amp;quot;man&amp;quot; or even a human, but just a biologic computer. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:53, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Viral vs Biological ==&lt;br /&gt;
In the podcast for Torn RDM says:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The baseship gets there and it, lo and behold, it finds a device. A floating beacon left behind by the [[Thirteenth Tribe]]. Those Cylons pull that beacon onto their ship and an infection spreads through the Cylon baseship. Just something that was physically on the beacon, some bacteria or something that survived. And it proved deadly to everybody on the Cylon baseship.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That seems to answer the questions about its nature (biological) and about who left it. I didn&#039;t want to yank the question right away (nor resort to the forum Q&amp;amp;A format), but I thought those questions might best be moved down to analysis with this as the answer (with a podcast cite). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really see what the confusing is about anyways. People hear the Cylons &#039;&#039;speculating&#039;&#039; that it might spread to the Resurruction Ship and immediately think that speculation is fact.&lt;br /&gt;
:A more valid oberservation is that Raiders and Centurions were incapitated too without a direct vector of attack. But that can very easily be explained by their link to the Hybrid and that they got screwed up when the Hybrid died. I think RDM mentions that Hybrid link too in the podcast. And upon some further thinking, there is a vector with the Raiders, since they are stored on the baseship between deployments --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Who is vulnerable to the Virus? ==&lt;br /&gt;
First, do we actually know that it only affect Cylons?  No human has been exposed to any sort of contact, assuming the Baltar was in an airtight suit.  Presumably, if the virus were released on all ships in the Fleet, any hidden Cylon agents would keel over dead.  Putting aside the question of wiping out the Cylon race, killing all Cylon agents hidden in the Fleet seems like a good idea, except of course for Athena.&lt;br /&gt;
Would President Roslin be affected by the Virus, because of her transfusion from Hera?  Would Hera be affected? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 15:40, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d say that both humans and Cylons are vulnerable in theory. Teasers for the next episode show a Marine team going to the basestar without any protection. Either they are vulnerable or just very careless. Or more likely, they don&#039;t know what happened and don&#039;t consider a possible infection with some disease. But it remains to be seen if they&#039;ll be infected --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d also like to echo Serenity&#039;s sentiments. Also, much of the Cylons reaction to the virus is more out of fear and ignorance mixed with some common sense. For instance, it makes absolutely no logical sense that a biological virus or bacetria could be transmitted from a body into the resurrection ship, since the download process is &#039;&#039;technological&#039;&#039; in nature. (Therefore, the illness or physical sickness itself would not be transferred, merely the memory of having it.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition, Baltar was in a [[flight suit]], which is air tight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:57, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::As you said they act of fear. They don&#039;t know what they are dealing with and speculate that it might be transmitted with downloading (someone even says &amp;quot;could&amp;quot;). But they take precautions and keep the Resurrection Ship out of range. That doesn&#039;t mean that we should think that it can in fact be transmitted that way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90658</id>
		<title>Talk:Torn/Archive2</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Torn/Archive2&amp;diff=90658"/>
		<updated>2006-11-10T23:15:31Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Origin of the virus */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Summary Split?==&lt;br /&gt;
We&#039;ve taken to splitting the episode summaries between the Fleet and Baltar. Am I alone in thinking this isn&#039;t the best method? I&#039;d prefer the summary going through the events of the episode chronologically. Especially now that the two storylines are beginning to converge. It was fine in Collaborators, where the two threads didn&#039;t effect each other. But now, someone reading the summary encounters a mention of the dead basestar at the end of the Galactica summary before getting to any of the details in the Cylon summary. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 00:00, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally I think it&#039;s fine. It depends on how much interaction there is between the two story lines in the next episode. If they signicantly interact, then this summary may require change, but for now I think it&#039;s ok.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:14, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Actually, we&#039;ve been describing each story line separately since &amp;quot;[[33]]&amp;quot;. It really makes the story lines easier to keep track of for both the viewer and the editors. However, if there&#039;s a better way, I would be interested in a discussion of it. What method or methods would you suggest? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:18, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: I think it&#039;s a fine format in most cases. It certainly worked for Collaborators, and it worked well for the Helo arc of Season One. However, in those instances, the main plot and the sides-story didn&#039;t interact, so knowing how the Galactica side of the episode pans out before you read what happened to Helo, it isn&#039;t a problem. But here we have the Galactica storyline ending with something that was explained in the Cylon storyline. I guess I&#039;m just concerned that some reading it without having seen the episode would be very confused. Something as simple as putting the Cylon half of the summary first I think would clear up any potential confusion, especially considering that nothing in the Galactica story effects the Cylon story. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:56, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Promotional pictures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Look at these pictures:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kthzq/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kw117/g248&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Where do they come from? I don&#039;t remember such scene in &amp;quot;Torn&amp;quot;... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 01:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.s. All promo images are also on the wiki. As for those images, when I was uploading new promo images tonight, I noticed those, and I was like... &amp;quot;I never saw them.&amp;quot;. if they show up in another episode, I will recategorize them in the media wiki. [[User:Shane|Shane]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:53, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:They may have come from a deleted scene as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::They might have been moved to the next episode &amp;quot;A Measure of Salvation&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:13, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Can anyone identify the patch on Baltar&#039;s flight suit? It looks like it has a picture of an old style Raider on it. http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000ksya5/g248 -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 11:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::That&#039;s the [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/albums/s1waterpromos/normal_BSG04EP_7727CS.JPG standard Raptor patch]. That&#039;s the Raptor squadron that Sharon belongs to. We maybe ought to crop some of the patches off uniforms and have a patches and insignias section of the uniforms page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Hmm. Odd I never noticed that before. Seen like something I would&#039;ve seen before. I thought maybe it was squandron, like Primus or The Vigilantes. An article on patches would be interesting. -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:24, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Oh, no. I think you&#039;re right. I think that&#039;s exactly what it is. I was just saying that was a &amp;quot;normal&amp;quot; squadron patch for a Raptor (as in we&#039;ve seen it before). If you would be willing to wade through the promo photos and screencaps ([http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/index.php some here as well]) to identify pictures with good patch shots in them, I&#039;d be willing to crop down to the patches and upload them and help start either a new section on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] or a subarticle of that page. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:37, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions? ==&lt;br /&gt;
I have no idea how to phrase it or if i remember correctly, but didn&#039;t Sharon (athena) start talking incoherently when they jump to the Lions Head? Is she infected? We don&#039;t see them jump back... [[User:Puneypunk|Puneypunk]] 06:26, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:No. She wasn&#039;t infected. She was shocked at what she saw and quoted scripture. She said &amp;quot;When god&#039;s anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall&amp;quot; --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:10, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Helo as XO ==&lt;br /&gt;
Surely if he was the XO, Adama would of promoted him to at least Major, if not Colonel, by now? I&#039;m not disputing that Helo is acting as Adama&#039;s &amp;quot;eyes and ears&amp;quot; but I&#039;m surpirsed that he is being described as XO.--[[User:Cohnee|Cohnee]] 06:39, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Rank isn&#039;t everything. An officer can also &amp;quot;outrank&amp;quot; someone with a nominally higher rank just by position. Adama probably still plans for Tigh to return some day and has Helo as interim solution. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It&#039;s quite possible that Helo hasn&#039;t been promoted because he hasn&#039;t met the minimum time-in-grade for a full Lieutenant yet. Kat&#039;s quick rise from Ensign to Lieutenant seems to contradict this, however. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::To me, his job seems to be something of a cross between Gaeta&#039;s former position and Tigh&#039;s.  It may be that he fell into his current roll while Galactica was understaffed and it has yet to be formalised or revised back to a more standard one.  We have seen that the crew is still readjusting to some extent and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if there are still some adjustments yet to be made. --[[User:Ryan H|Ryan H]] 12:35, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don&#039;t think minimum time in-grade is all that important anymore, all things considered. I also think that Helo and Kat are both excellent candidates for Captain, if they aren&#039;t already. Kat and Starbuck could be squadron leaders, Apollo could be CAG, and Helo could be Gaeta, since Gaeta is the new Baltar. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Origin of the virus ==&lt;br /&gt;
Far too speculative to put on the main page, but could the virus have been planted by the other 5 models?  Perhaps a split occurred within the Cylons soon after they took human form, and the other 5 have decided to strike at the ones that we know.&lt;br /&gt;
If indeed the virus is a hybrid biological / technological nature as surmised in the Questions, it would support the theory of other Cylons having created it. --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 13:29, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, if it was placed by the other 5, then it may be logical to asume that the other 5 went off in search of and, possibly, found earth, leaving this &amp;quot;viral pod&amp;quot; behind to ward off the 7. Unfortunately its all wild speculation at this point. --[[User:Vladimir|Vladimir]] 13:34, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
If the virus was placed at the Lion&#039;s Head by Eathlings to dissuade potential Earth-seekers, it was either placed when they left Kobol a long time ago, or sometime more recently. If they placed it when they left Kobol, that would suggest that it was either an accident that it affected the Cylons negatively, or that they could somehow forsee that the Cylons would be looking for them. Otherwise, it could have been placed more recently by Earthlings (either of Cylon or human extraction), meaning the inhabitants of Earth are aware that Cylons are looking for them, and they don&#039;t want the Cylons to find them. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 18:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
Moreover, does this mean that at every one of the 12 constellations, there will be a new anti-Cylon trap? The Cylons won&#039;t fall for the virus again, clearly, so the Earthlings, either of the past or currently, would have to have created 12 different deterrents against the Cylons, which should make for some exciting puzzle-solving television.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 5 models (spoilers) ==&lt;br /&gt;
On the listed on Season 3 on the front page, one of the articles contained an interview with Moore. {{spoiltext|He mentioned that the other 5 models of Cylons is a secret.  They are currently &amp;quot;boxed&amp;quot; and not in use, plus the 7 other cylon models do not know what the other 5 models look like.}}The reasons for this is unclear, but that is the info that Moore was willing to reveal during the interview.  --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:That&#039;s correct, but the answers to questions are generally supposed to be based on aired info. Until that information is shown on the air it&#039;s generally a spoiler (and is wrapped in spoiltext like I did above). That&#039;s actually something I wasn&#039;t aware of, so you just &amp;quot;spoiled&amp;quot; me. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Ooh, thanks for that, that confirms my theory on how both the Tricia/Grace/Dean spoilers and the Aaron/Tahmoh spoilers were both right at the same time. I&#039;m glad it was this :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:05, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Btw, do you have a link to this interview? It&#039;s possible to put the link (Spoiler covered) in the &amp;quot;questions&amp;quot; Section regarding this topic. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see this interview as well. I read the Aaron/Tahmoh interview and it seemed they were just speculating about the boxed thing. They&#039;re not Cylons, so how would they know? Tricia, Grace, and the other Cylons were the only actors privvy to &amp;quot;Life Aboard the Base Ship&amp;quot;, Ron Moore&#039;s Cylon bible. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:21, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Apparently there&#039;s a link on the [[Season 3]] page. I generally try to avoid spoilers, so that&#039;s the best I&#039;ve got. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:48, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My bad guys, I think I combined the spoilers from Tricia/Grace/Dean and Aarom/Tahmoh into one during my recollections. The interview I was referring to was the one done by Entertainment Weekly, in which they reveal a lot of the plot in the 2 hour pilot. I think I must have confused the actors&#039; discussion and speculations into the spoilers that Moore revealed. Sorry, guess we&#039;re just gonna have to wait and learn about the 5 models the hard way. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Hybrid&#039;s looks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The hybrid&#039;s visual look was inspired by the precogs in Minority Report.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
Is that official (ie: mentioned by someone who works on the episode) or a guess? I mean, I can think of a few other things that could&#039;ve been the inspiration for the Hybrid&#039;s look - the pods the humans are placed in by the machines in [[w:The Matrix|The Matrix]] for example. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:52, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
: Barring an official source, this should be removed or reworded accordingly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::It was mentioned in podcast, which this time starred Ron and an entire Cornell University class, sans cigarettes and Scotch. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:22, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I got it from the podcast. I should have mentioned that, but it was very late... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The Ship Who... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I thought this series was worth noting here, since it seems to predate any other notions of similar man/machine integration that I&#039;ve found. (It&#039;s certainly more relevant than a PC game.) We all know what a fan Ron Moore is of classic science fiction and I&#039;m sure he&#039;s got a few of these on his shelves. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Something from the 60s is good. It might be even older, but it&#039;s important to point out that the source of the concept lies in &amp;quot;classic&amp;quot; SciFi books and not modern television. What I really hated was a lengthy paragraph about the Shadow vessels in &amp;quot;Babylon 5&amp;quot;. I know that lots of B5 fans think that JMS invented lots of SciFi concepts and that all other shows just ripped it off, but it really gave the impression that B5 was somehow source material for the Hybrid, when in fact the shows&#039; writers draw on the same - even older - sources. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:36, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Concur with Serenity. Man/machine integration is nothing new. Here, we&#039;re technically not even talking of a &amp;quot;man&amp;quot; or even a human, but just a biologic computer. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:53, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Viral vs Biological ==&lt;br /&gt;
In the podcast for Torn RDM says:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The baseship gets there and it, lo and behold, it finds a device. A floating beacon left behind by the [[Thirteenth Tribe]]. Those Cylons pull that beacon onto their ship and an infection spreads through the Cylon baseship. Just something that was physically on the beacon, some bacteria or something that survived. And it proved deadly to everybody on the Cylon baseship.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That seems to answer the questions about its nature (biological) and about who left it. I didn&#039;t want to yank the question right away (nor resort to the forum Q&amp;amp;A format), but I thought those questions might best be moved down to analysis with this as the answer (with a podcast cite). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don&#039;t really see what the confusing is about anyways. People hear the Cylons &#039;&#039;speculating&#039;&#039; that it might spread to the Resurruction Ship and immediately think that speculation is fact.&lt;br /&gt;
:A more valid oberservation is that Raiders and Centurions were incapitated too without a direct vector of attack. But that can very easily be explained by their link to the Hybrid and that they got screwed up when the Hybrid died. I think RDM mentions that Hybrid link too in the podcast. And upon some further thinking, there is a vector with the Raiders, since they are stored on the baseship between deployments --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 9 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Who is vulnerable to the Virus? ==&lt;br /&gt;
First, do we actually know that it only affect Cylons?  No human has been exposed to any sort of contact, assuming the Baltar was in an airtight suit.  Presumably, if the virus were released on all ships in the Fleet, any hidden Cylon agents would keel over dead.  Putting aside the question of wiping out the Cylon race, killing all Cylon agents hidden in the Fleet seems like a good idea, except of course for Athena.&lt;br /&gt;
Would President Roslin be affected by the Virus, because of her transfusion from Hera?  Would Hera be affected? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 15:40, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d say that both humans and Cylons are vulnerable in theory. Teasers for the next episode show a Marine team going to the basestar without any protection. Either they are vulnerable or just very careless. Or more likely, they don&#039;t know what happened and don&#039;t consider a possible infection with some disease. But it remains to be seen if they&#039;ll be infected --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I&#039;d also like to echo Serenity&#039;s sentiments. Also, much of the Cylons reaction to the virus is more out of fear and ignorance mixed with some common sense. For instance, it makes absolutely no logical sense that a biological virus or bacetria could be transmitted from a body into the resurrection ship, since the download process is &#039;&#039;technological&#039;&#039; in nature. (Therefore, the illness or physical sickness itself would not be transferred, merely the memory of having it.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition, Baltar was in a [[flight suit]], which is air tight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:57, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
::As you said they act of fear. They don&#039;t know what they are dealing with and speculate that it might be transmitted with downloading (someone even says &amp;quot;could&amp;quot;). But they take precautions and keep the Resurrection Ship out of range. That doesn&#039;t mean that we should think that it can in fact be transmitted that way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 10 November 2006 (CST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Humanoid_Cylon&amp;diff=90058</id>
		<title>Humanoid Cylon</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Humanoid_Cylon&amp;diff=90058"/>
		<updated>2006-11-08T18:02:13Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Notes */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:CyAg.jpg|thumb|300px|Cylon copies of [[Number Five]], [[Number Six]], and [[Leoben Conoy]] at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Cylon agents&#039;&#039;&#039; are [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] that mimic human form so completely that they are nearly undetectable to current Colonial technologies. Cylon agents can either be actively aware of their origins as Cylons or can be programmed to believe that they are truly human, resulting in a &amp;quot;sleeper agent&amp;quot;. These types of Cylons were responsible for aiding in the complete destruction of the Twelve Colonies through their use of sabotage and infiltration. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Origins == &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Following the end of the [[Cylon War]], the Cylons withdrew from Colonial space to a planet of their own. For some 40 years, nothing was heard of them, and no apparent attempt was made by the Colonials to keep an eye on them. The only contact expected between the two was created by the Colonial government through planned annual diplomatic meetings at [[Armistice Station]]. However, while the Colonials sent a repesentative to the station every year, the Cylons did not ([[Miniseries]]). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Season 3 Female Cylons.jpg|thumb|150px|Numbers [[Number Six|Six]], [[Number Three|Three]], and [[Number Eight|Eight]]]]&lt;br /&gt;
During their forty years of isolation, the Cylons developed or evolved into a &#039;&#039;humanoid form&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;humanoids&amp;quot;&amp;gt;The idea of Cylons in humanoid form is not new. This concept appeared over 25 years earlier in the episode &amp;quot;[[The Night the Cylons Landed, Part I|The Night the Cylons Landed]]&amp;quot; in the short-lived spinoff of the Original Series, &#039;&#039;[[Galactica 1980]]&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; that is indistinguishable with the human form, down to the cellular level, but not completely at a molecular level. These &#039;&#039;&#039;Cylon agents&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;name&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Viewers initially lacked an authentic term to call the humanoid Cylons during season 1 of the series. Here on the &#039;&#039;Battlestar Wiki&#039;&#039;, the descriptive term &amp;quot;Humano-Cylon&amp;quot; was used for a time. Dialogue in several episodes throughout season 2 have consistently used &amp;quot;Cylon agent&amp;quot; to describe the humanoid Cylons. Other names are also used, such as &amp;quot;humanoid Cylons&amp;quot; (which [[Tricia Helfer]] often uses in interviews, but apparently more for convenience than an official name), or &amp;quot;Bio-Cylons&amp;quot; which is sometimes used derisively by fans of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]].&lt;br /&gt;
*Some of the resistance fighters on Caprica refer to the Cylon agents as &amp;quot;Skin Jobs,&amp;quot; a script reference to &#039;&#039;[[Wikipedia:Blade Runner|Blade Runner]]&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; have the capacity to emulate many human physical acts, including sex, as demonstrated by the Number Six, Number Eight and Cavil models. Cylon agents also display convincingly human personalities (affection, jealousy, sadness, anger, sense of humor etc.) In fact, they do so even when interacting with other Cylons outside of Colonial scrutiny, making it clear that these personalities are real. The majority of the Cylons follow a monotheistic religion (with the possible exception of the [[Cavil|Brother Cavil model]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cylon agents can be programmed to believe that they are truly human. These are known as &#039;sleeper agents&#039;. Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality &amp;quot;on-hold.&amp;quot; The [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|first copy of Sharon Valerii]], known by her callsign of &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; on battlestar &#039;&#039;[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]&#039;&#039;, had little awareness of her true nature until her arrest for the attempted assassination of [[William Adama]] ([[Kobol&#039;s Last Gleaming, Part II]]). This sleeper agent conducts or aids in sabotage operations within the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] ([[Water]], [[Litmus]]). Most agent copies, particularly [[Number Five|Numbers Five]] [[Number Six|and Six]], imitate human behavior, but are fully aware of their true nature and behave more or less like a human &amp;quot;spy.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Gina catatonic.jpg|thumb|left|The emotionally scarred Number Six copy, called &amp;quot;Gina&amp;quot;. Her catatonic state proves that the Cylon psyche is susceptible to the same pressures and cleavages as the human psyche.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Agents are also susceptible to the same emotional traumas and clevages that their human counterparts are, further proving that personalities are a realistic part of their psyche, despite the presence of the Cylon portion of their personality. A case in point is a copy of Number Six, known as [[Gina]], who was repeatedly physically and sexually assaulted by the crew of &#039;&#039;[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]&#039;&#039;. These repeated assaults lead to Gina&#039;s near-catatonic state at the time &#039;&#039;Peagsus&#039;&#039; discovered [[the Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As evidenced by [[Number Three]]&#039;s prophetic visions in &amp;quot;[[Exodus, Part I]]&amp;quot;, Cylon agents can also experience dreams while sleeping. It&#039;s not yet clear whether or not it is usual for Cylons to dream, but Three speaks to Doctor [[Cottle]] as though it is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although they cannot do so remotely or wirelessly, Cylon agents can interface with a computer system or computer network through subdermal physical contact with input cables connected to the devices. In &amp;quot;[[Flight of the Phoenix]],&amp;quot; [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii]] connected to &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;&#039;s computers by this method when she inserted a fiber-optic cable through her left palm and into her arm. This subdermal fiber-optical link suggests that certain tissues in a Cylon agent are photo-reactive. The process involves cutting an opening into the agent&#039;s palm and appears painful and was not the common method of data access. Sharon Agathon used her arm again on a [[Cylon data port]] located in a secure complex on Cylon-occupied [[New Caprica]]. This time, the Cylon touched her arm to a complex table of lights to authorize access to a storage area. The Cylon&#039;s forearm illuminated in the same location where she had used &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;s&#039;&#039; fiber-optic cable over a year before.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Valerii_optic_input.jpg|right|thumb|[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]] interfaces with &#039;&#039;[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica&#039;s]]&#039;&#039;  [[Computers|mainframe computer]] and communication systems by fiber-optic link]]&lt;br /&gt;
A Cylon agent&#039;s brain is certainly human in appearance, but is apparently still susceptible to damage from certain types of radiation. Upon the death of an agent&#039;s body, a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness into another copy of itself. This ability is limited by distance, signal integrity, and proximity to a resurrection node or, in space, a [[Resurrection Ship]] ([[Miniseries]], &amp;quot;[[Flesh and Bone]],&amp;quot; &amp;quot;[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Based on [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica Sharon Valerii]]&#039;s conversation with [[Kara Thrace]] in the episode, &amp;quot;[[The Farm]],&amp;quot; it appears that all Cylon agents may share a &#039;&#039;collective knowledgebase&#039;&#039; of data from other active or deactivated Cylon agents. (A collective knowledgebase works more like an internet chat forum, or even a wiki, which differs from the concept of the collective consciousness as seen in SF characters such as the Borg in &#039;&#039;Star Trek.&#039;&#039; Writers of the show have indicated this type of &amp;quot;hive mind&amp;quot; is not used with agents.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Valerii spoke of a conversation between Thrace and the second captured [[Leoben Conoy]] copy in the Fleet. This information would only be known to that now-dead Leoben copy if sharing were not possible. Kara Thrace&#039;s call sign, Starbuck, was also a likely bit of information gleaned from the collective knowledgebase that [[Simon]] knew of the Viper pilot, although Thrace never told him of her call sign and used it to strike back at her abductors ([[The Farm]]). Also, during &amp;quot;[[Flight of the Phoenix]],&amp;quot; Caprica-Valerii asks [[Anastasia Dualla]] if she still carried her pocket knife, a fact which should have been known only to the &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; copy. When under duress, &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; Valerii is able to tell [[Gaius Baltar]] the number of remaining Cylon agent agents in the Fleet, information that would be impossible to gather without a collective knowledgebase to all agents ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some or all Cylon &amp;quot;female&amp;quot; models may have the capacity to bear children seeded by human males (&amp;quot;[[33]],&amp;quot; &amp;quot;[[Flesh and Bone]],&amp;quot; &amp;quot;[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;[[Kobol&#039;s Last Gleaming, Part II]]&amp;quot;).  The Cylons tested numerous methods of sexual reproduction, yet these failed due to a known flaw in the Cylon agent design.  Cylon agents cannot reproduce with each other biologically, so in an attempt to subvert this deficiency, they try to interbreed with humans, creating hybrid offspring. &amp;quot;[[Farms]]&amp;quot; were apparently set up across all the occupied Colonies where survivors, specifically, young fertile women of child-bearing age, were rounded up, placed under heavy sedation and turned into &amp;quot;baby machines&amp;quot; through artificial insemination (Ron Moore said there are presumably also farms for male humans, plus in vitro experiment labs, etc.).  However, this method has been unsuccessful thus far. Another drastically different approach is taken by attempting to conceive a child through a bond of love.  It seems that [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon Valerii]]&#039;s love-child is the lone success story of the relatively short history of Cylon sexual reproduction ([[The Farm]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Known Cylon Agent Models ==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|right|200px]]&lt;br /&gt;
There are twelve models of Cylon agents ([[Miniseries]]), representing twelve archetypes the Cylons have witnessed in humanity. All seven models revealed to the viewers as Cylon agents&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;dossier&amp;quot;&amp;gt;The term &amp;quot;Known Cylon agents&amp;quot; is shown on a dossier on the models shown on [[Laura Roslin]]&#039;s desk on &#039;&#039;[[Colonial One]]&#039;&#039; in the episode &amp;quot;[[Epiphanies]].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; have also been revealed to the central Colonial characters (on [[New Caprica]] at least) as of the episode, &amp;quot;[[Occupation]].&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are many copies of each model, although the specific number of each copy (or the number of individual personalities that inhabit them) has not been specified.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Each Cylon agent has the same face, stature, hair, eye &amp;amp; skin color, gender, and other biometrics as all the others of his or her model. This point technically makes each copy a twin of itself. Each copy appears to start with the same basic personality, but each personality grows more distinct due to their individual experiences.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Number Three]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Biers Downloaded.JPG|thumb|left|Number Three]]&lt;br /&gt;
This model was witnessed by viewers posing as a reporter from the [[Fleet News Service]] and was revealed to be a Cylon to viewers at the end of &amp;quot;[[Final Cut]]&amp;quot; when a second copy was shown living on Caprica. Threes seem to be the most calculating and duplicitous models shown. The copy that tried to [[Boxed|box]] Sharon Valerii exhibited these characteristics strongly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Part of Biers&#039; mission within &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;s&#039;&#039; fleet (which fits her work as a journalist) likely involves the relay of important intelligence within the Fleet, such as the status of the pregnant Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii. This model&#039;s status as a Cylon is unknown to the Colonials until the rescue of the surviving members of the [[Caprica Resistance]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is reasonable to assume that the surviving Caprica Resistance members have since revealed this information to the Fleet authorities, either after their rescue, or through the intelligence updates from the [[New Caprica Resistance]] prior to the battlestar&#039;s planned rescue mission in &amp;quot;[[Exodus, Part II]]&amp;quot; over a year later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A copy of this model has appeared under the name/alias &amp;quot;[[D&#039;anna Biers]].&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;clear: both;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Number Five]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Doral.jpg|thumb|Number Five]]&lt;br /&gt;
This model attempts to sow the seeds of discontent or confusion, particularly during crucial life-threatening situations, and endeavors to undermine authority that threatens his objectives ([[Miniseries]]).  Doral models are more covert, assuming an ordinary &amp;quot;everyman&amp;quot; appearance that&#039;s blended in what may seem to be insignificant behind-the-scenes issues (such as converting &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; into a museum). Of all the models thus far, the Aaron Doral models are the most militant, fanatic and consistent in message and objectives to the Cylon objectives, whether he is dispassionately discussing the fate of humanity with his comrades or attempting to kill or maim Colonials in a suicide bomb attack ([[Litmus]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Viewers first meet Doral during a tour of &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; with other Colonial citizens (possibly the press) as we see the battlestar for the first time at the start of the [[Miniseries]]. Viewers aren&#039;t sure of Doral&#039;s true identity as the second Cylon agent until the Miniseries&#039; conclusion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Copies of this model have appeared under the name/alias &amp;quot;[[Aaron Doral]].&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A copy of Number Five is seen with [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] at the end of Season 2, and seems to be in command of the others. While Six and Sharon express concern and warning to Baltar and the New Capricans, Five expresses a tone of unmistakable threat.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A copy of Number Five (presumably the same entity seen at the end of Season 2) has [[Jammer]] detained, and is questioning him at the [[New Caprica Detention Center]] in Webisode 7. He shows classic tactics to try to buy the young refugee&#039;s trust, and eventually glean information from him about the [[resistance]]. He provides [[Jammer]] with a keycard which will allow him to alert this Five in order to report further intelligence for the sake of peace.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;clear: both;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Number Six]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Whiterainsix 33.JPG|thumb|left|Number Six]]&lt;br /&gt;
This is the first Cylon agent model shown to viewers at the start of the [[Miniseries]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This model utilizes the human need / desire for sexual relations to her advantage.  She tends to be very  religious and monotheistic.  Model 6 desires to know what it is to be alive. There is something inherently enigmatic about her, more so than with the other models. Sixes have been described as &amp;quot;usually so hardcore&amp;quot;, referring to their tendencies towards violence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Typically she is the alpha female, as demonstrated on multiple occasions ([[Miniseries]], [[33]], [[Water]], [[Six Degrees of Separation]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Copies of this model have appeared under the names/aliases &amp;quot;[[Shelly Godfrey]]&amp;quot; , &amp;quot;[[Gina]]&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;[[Caprica-Six|Caprica]]&amp;quot; (in honor of her work on Caprica towards the destruction of the Colonies).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A virtual personality of Number Six haunts [[Gaius Baltar]] in a manner only he can see or hear. Throughout seasons one and two of the series, viewers presume this &amp;quot;virtual Six&amp;quot; was the &amp;quot;[[Caprica-Six]]&amp;quot; persona destroyed in the Miniseries. However, this persona appears not to be the same consciousness as Caprica-Six at all. Not only does Baltar&#039;s virtual Six appear to have a separate, destructive agenda from the reanimated [[Caprica-Six]] (containing the same personality template that infiltrates the Colonial military and falls in love with Baltar), but Caprica-Six is &#039;&#039;herself&#039;&#039; haunted by a virtual &#039;&#039;Gaius Baltar.&#039;&#039; See the [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations]] article for more on this confusing, but intriguing turn of events.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;clear: both;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Number Eight]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Boomerraincoat Colonialday.JPG|thumb|Number Eight]]&lt;br /&gt;
Number Eight is generally a saboteur designed to infiltrate Colonial military units and is likely programmed to use any Colonial munitions to cause havoc ([[Water]]). The Number Eight model is the closest witnessed Cylon agent model to show its abilities as a soldier. This model has shown naiveté in many matters.  She is apparently not as religious as other Cylon models, but has demonstrated that she can love, and is capable of being impregnated by a human ([[Six Degrees of Separation]], [[Kobol&#039;s Last Gleaming, Part II]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She may be &amp;quot;defective&amp;quot;, as the Cylon programming within the sleeper agent known as &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; on &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; conflicts multiple times with its human personality ([[Water]]). Also, the fully aware Sharon Valerii found by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] on Caprica switches alliances from Cylon to Colonial after falling in love with Helo and aids the Colonials [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|for a time]] (several episodes, most notably &amp;quot;[[Flight of the Phoenix]]&amp;quot;). Number Eight is the third Cylon agent introduced during the [[Miniseries]]. However, viewers do not discover her true identity until the very end of the Miniseries when a second copy of Sharon Valerii appears at [[Ragnar Anchorage]] while retrieving an abandoned copy of Number Five.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Copies]] of this model have appeared under the name &amp;quot;[[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]].&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;clear: both;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Leoben Conoy]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:CyLeo.jpg|thumb|left|Leoben Conoy]]&lt;br /&gt;
Leoben Conoy (Cylon agent model number unknown) was the fourth model witnessed by viewers (although viewers would not know until the end of the [[Miniseries]] that they had already seen the third introduced Cylon agent, Sharon Valerii). The Conoy model has shown to be religiously oriented and claims to be prescient on some level, using dogma and intermixing truth with falsehoods.  It was first discovered on [[Ragnar Station]], claiming to be a scavenger / arms dealer ([[Miniseries]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Conoy models also appear obsessed with matters of mating, bonding, and reproduction, as demonstrated by a particular agent&#039;s fascination and obsession with [[Kara Thrace]] (&amp;quot;[[Flesh and Bone]],&amp;quot; &amp;quot;[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]],&amp;quot; &amp;quot;[[Occupation]],&amp;quot; &amp;quot;[[Precipice]],&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;[[Exodus, Part II]]&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Conoy can be likened to the serpent of the [[Wikipedia:Genesis|Genesis]] tale in the Earth [[Wikipedia: Christian Bible|Christian Bible]], taunting people with knowledge then watching as the negative consequences come into devastating fruition. Leoben copies have likely been encountered by the [[Caprica Resistance]], as [[Samuel Anders]] recites in jest some comments made by another Leoben copy captured in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] ([[Flesh and Bone]], [[The Farm]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;clear: both;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Simon]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Simon Farm2.JPG|thumb|Simon]]&lt;br /&gt;
The Simon model (Cylon agent model number unknown) was encountered by [[Kara Thrace|Kara &amp;quot;Starbuck&amp;quot; Thrace]] on Cylon-occupied [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. Posing as a doctor, Simon was actually involved with the Cylon hybridization program.  Simon resembles a tall, somewhat thin middle-aged black man who speaks in a comforting strong voice ([[The Farm]]) Unlike other models, Simon doesn&#039;t seem to have many military aspects to his physical or mental configuration, and was easily overcome by a wounded Thrace. Simon may be a model based primarily on human intellectualism.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;clear: both;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== [[Cavil]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Cyca2.jpg|thumb|left|Cavil]]&lt;br /&gt;
Brother Cavil (Cylon agent model number unknown) gives counsel to [[Galen Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] after his maddened attack against [[Cally Henderson Tyrol|Cally]].  Despite his disdain in prayer and religous pomp and circumstance ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]), Cavil conducts a prayer session with [[Laura Roslin]], the latter apparently hoping that prayer would aid her success in the elections. Another copy of Cavil appears on [[Caprica]], informing a [[Caprica Resistance]] [[SAR]] team that the Cylons had left the Colonies some 18 hours after Cylon units cease an attack on their unit.  When the Caprica SAR team returns to &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;, Tyrol recognizes and identifies Cavil as a Cylon agent.  For a priest, and especially for a Cylon, Cavil displays an utter disdain for both the beliefs of the Colonial&#039;s [[Lords of Kobol]] and the Cylon [[God]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Cavil#Caprica-Cavil|Caprica-Cavil]] alleges that he is sent to &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; as a messenger of peace.  He relays what occurred after [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] are rescued from the wreckage of the cafe bombing ([[Downloaded]]).  The two &amp;quot;Heroes of the Cylon&amp;quot; use their new found celebrity to voice what many in the Cylon population felt themselves... The Cylon annihilation of the human race and occupation of the Twelve Colonies was wrong.  Caprica-Cavil tells [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] and [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that the Cylons will go their own way, and leave the Fleet alone.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But Cavil&#039;s proclamation [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|proves false a year later]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), due to the change in the Cylons&#039; attitudes caused by Caprica-Six and Boomer, as the Cylons arrive to allegedly help the humans and live in peaceful coexistence with them (&amp;quot;[[Occupation]]&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;[[Precipice]]&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Interestingly, the Fleet copy of Cavil claims, in conversation with Tyrol, that he had been preaching longer than Tyrol had been &amp;quot;sucking down oxygen&amp;quot;  ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]).  If Cavil is being truthful and, assuming Tyrol is roughly thirty years old, Cavil has been operational for at least thirty years.  This information conflicts with aired information that suggests that Cylon agent infiltration of the Colonies began approximately two years prior to the Miniseries. Based on this information, it is likely that Cavil&#039;s comment is part of his &amp;quot;cover&amp;quot; as an older Colonial citizen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As demonstrated on Cylon-occupied [[New Caprica]], Cavil models do not subscribe to the theology of the Cylon, but usually adheres to the party lines in group decisions. In several instances, the Cavils display dark, draconian solutions to the insurgency on New Caprica that equal the militant zeal of Numbers Three and Five. Unlike the other models, however, the Cavils lack a &amp;quot;moral compass&amp;quot; that theology usually creates, and so may be solicit answers that may be more dramatic or drastic than other Cylon agents.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Speculated Infiltrators ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;See the [[Cylon agent speculation]] article for analysis on characters and their likelihood of being a Cylon agent, based on episode information.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Human/Cylon Hybrids==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Conceived by the Eight known as [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Valerii]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], the infant [[Hera]] is the first and only human/Cylon hybrid being&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;In [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)#Downloaded|deleted scenes]] from the episode &amp;quot;[[Downloaded]]&amp;quot;, it is shown that [[Gaius Baltar]] attempts to steal the baby from &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; in collusion with [[Gina]] and [[D&#039;anna Biers]]. When Biers refers to the baby as Hera, Gina tells her not to call the baby by [[Hera, Lord of Kobol|the name of a Human god]], and to call her &amp;quot;Number Thirteen&amp;quot;. Since the events of &amp;quot;[[Exodus, Part II]]&amp;quot; contradict these cut scenes, the deleted scene can no longer be considered [[canon]]ical.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hera is hidden away from both humans and Cylons, now believed dead by her parents. President [[Laura Roslin]] has the baby hidden with [[Maya]] as her adoptive parent. Despite Roslin&#039;s attempts to protect the child on [[New Caprica]], Hera is now in the hands of the Cylons ([[Exodus, Part II]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A child named [[Kacey]] was claimed to be a Human/Cylon hybrid by [[Leoben Conoy]], supposedly created from the eggs extracted from [[Kara Thrace]] ([[The Farm]]) and later fertilized by himself. However, Kacey is later reunited with her actual human mother after the Fleet&#039;s escape from New Caprica ([[Exodus, Part II]]).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In a 10/24/05 interview on &amp;quot;The Chase Show&amp;quot; on the SF webcast news site [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml TheFandom.com] with veteran &amp;quot;Star Trek: Deep Space Nine&amp;quot; actress [[IMDB:nm0557732|Chase Masterson]], Ron D. Moore is interviewed and directly answers two key questions in the Twelve Models debate and the origin of Sharon Valerii in particular. Here is a transcription of that interview segment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: ... I just have to ask something... is there one Boomer that&#039;s just human? &lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: No, there&#039;s not. I mean, the idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were... these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, &amp;quot;Well, you know what, there&#039;s really only twelve of you... and these are the twelve.&amp;quot;  And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is. Um, Sharon, in particular &amp;amp;mdash; Sharon-Boomer, went through quite a trans-metamorphosis because in the original [[Miniseries]] script, in the first draft, she wasn&#039;t a Cylon at all. She was going to be just &amp;amp;mdash; I wrote her just &amp;amp;mdash; I wanted a youngish pilot, who was the rookie, who was sort of vulnerable in ways, who made mistakes in ways that you&#039;re not used to seeing your heroes on TV shows do, and I was really interested in this idea of the officer, the female officer in love with the male deck chief in violation of all the rules and I kinda thought, going forward, that she and the [[Galen Tyrol|chief]], in combination with [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]], who&#039;s really only in the [[Miniseries]] and one or two other episodes, would form sort of our family unit, that that was kind of a family...&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: OK...&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: ... and actually, after that first draft was written, it was [[David Eick]], my producing partner, who said, &amp;quot;You know what, if at the end of this thing, at the very end when all the Cylons walk into Armistice &amp;amp;mdash; into the [[Ragnar Anchorage|Ragnar station]] at the end... if you turn around and Sharon is one of the Cylons, he said, we&#039;re definitely gonna get picked up for a series.&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: (laughs) OK... that did make... that really did seal the deal...&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: ... and I just really went... that&#039;s a great idea and I realized that, because I&#039;d had laid... I had written a story straight, I really hadn&#039;t cheated. There was no hint of who Sharon might be, and it really did suck you in, and really sort of, you believed her as a person first, and then we revealed her as a Cylon.&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: ... Right....&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: ... And so what happened after that was, I assumed going into the first season &amp;amp;mdash; well I didn&#039;t assume, I just planned... to slowly, over the course of the first year, peel back the layers &amp;amp;mdash; that Sharon would only start to sort of discover her Cylon nature by the end of the first year.&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: Oh, God... and it was heartbreaking, watching that unfold, because I loved her much as human, and she was just adorable, with him and then with the kid, it was like, oh, what a great girl, she&#039;s um... you know, young and cute, and &amp;amp;mdash; who&#039;s the actress &amp;amp;mdash; and that whole thing, and then you&#039;re like, WHAT?&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: Yeah...&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: ... She&#039;s the enemy...&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: I know then, she&#039;s the enemy, then she&#039;s the one that is your most worry, what&#039;s she gonna do next.&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: Yeah. You really took us on quite a journey there. I was still hoping for a human one running around somewhere, but no, huh?....&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Ron&#039;&#039;&#039;: No.&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&#039;Chase&#039;&#039;&#039;: Oh, well...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With this information from the show&#039;s main creative leader, it is established as canon that:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* There are precisely twelve &#039;&#039;human&#039;&#039; Cylon models. The other varieties of Cylon spacecraft or fighters are not factored into this count of 12 models.&lt;br /&gt;
* &#039;&#039;&#039;None&#039;&#039;&#039; of the Cylon agents were &#039;&#039;ever&#039;&#039; an actual human.&lt;br /&gt;
* The twelve models are based on on archetypes determined by the Cylons that form what they perceive were the specific kinds of human behavior and/or personality, distilled into twelve varieties.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Notes ==&lt;br /&gt;
* A [[Cylon Centurion]] can not differentiate the differing versions of one model from another ([[Precipice]]).  For example, if faced with two differing number eight models, [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon &amp;quot;Boomer&amp;quot; Valerii]] and [[Sharon Agathon]], it would not be able to discriminate between them without external aid.&lt;br /&gt;
* While Centurions may not be able to tell the difference between different versions of the same model, other Cylon agents do not have this problem (&amp;quot;[[Downloaded]]&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;[[Exodus, Part I]]&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
* According to [[Cavil]] in &amp;quot;[[Exodus, Part I]]&amp;quot;, the pain associated with each successive [[Resurrection (RDM)|download]] is worse than the one before. The first download feels like little more than a headache, but the third feels like someone has rushed a white hot poker through the head. However, this might be a subjective feeling that varies with model and circumstances. [[Sharon Agathon]]&#039;s report in &amp;quot;[[Scar]]&amp;quot; supports Cavil, but a [[Number Three]] considers her last download to be rejuvenating ([[Downloaded]]).&lt;br /&gt;
* It is possible that the 12 Cylon models are not based on 12 human archetypes, but instead represent the 12 colonies.  This would therefore suggest that there may be a 13th model to represent Earth.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;font-size:85%&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:A to Z]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Cylons]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:RDM]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{featured article candidate previous}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Torn&amp;diff=90048</id>
		<title>Torn</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Torn&amp;diff=90048"/>
		<updated>2006-11-08T17:51:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Questions */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Episode Data&lt;br /&gt;
| title= Torn&lt;br /&gt;
| image=Season 3 - Promo - Epi 5 - StarbuckTighAdama.jpg&lt;br /&gt;
| season= 3&lt;br /&gt;
| episode= 6&lt;br /&gt;
| guests= &lt;br /&gt;
| writer= [[Anne Cofell Saunders]]&lt;br /&gt;
| story= &lt;br /&gt;
| director= [[Jean de Segonzac]]&lt;br /&gt;
| production= &lt;br /&gt;
| rating=&lt;br /&gt;
| US airdate= 2006-11-03&lt;br /&gt;
| UK airdate=&lt;br /&gt;
| dvd=&lt;br /&gt;
| population= 41,422&lt;br /&gt;
| prev= [[Collaborators]]&lt;br /&gt;
| next= [[A Measure of Salvation]]&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Overview ==&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;Part one of two. [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] create divisions between those who suffered under the Cylon occupation of [[New Caprica]] and those who stayed with the fleet. Meanwhile, [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] tries to prove his worth to the Cylons. &amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;TVGuide&amp;quot;&amp;gt;{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvguide.com/detail/tv-show.aspx?episodeid=6006095&amp;amp;tvobjectid=191395&amp;amp;more=ucepisodelist|title=Episode Detail for Torn at www.tvguide.com}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== On [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
* &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;&#039;s air group runs war game exercises among the viper pilots. Captain Thrace breaks formation during the exercise and collides with another pilot, forcing an end to the war games, and causing Apollo to remove her from flight duty.&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gaeta|Felix Gaeta]] meets with [[Laura Roslin]], [[William Adama]], and [[Saul Tigh]] to discuss matters Baltar related. During the year before the Cylon Occupation of New Caprica, Baltar was obsessed with analyzing the data from Kobol to find the path to Earth. Based on passages in the [[Pythia|Scrolls of Pythia]], Baltar identified a nebula he believed to be a landmark on the road to Earth.&lt;br /&gt;
* Upon Thrace&#039;s return to her bunk, she is met by Kacey and her mother, whom she dismisses, telling the Kacey&#039;s mother not to come again.&lt;br /&gt;
* In the pilots&#039; mess, Lt. [[Sharon Agathon]] is given the callsign &amp;quot;[[Athena]].&amp;quot; Thrace and Tigh begin to sow dissent between the survivors of New Caprica and the crew that stayed behind on &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
* Adama confronts Thrace and Tigh on their behavior. He challenges them to shoot him, as their constant complaining is tantamount to pulling the trigger. When neither do, Adama demands they shape up and move on with their lives.&lt;br /&gt;
* Spurred by Adama&#039;s words, Thrace cuts her hair and appears to return to duty. Later, in uniform, she visits [[Kacey]] and her mother.&lt;br /&gt;
* Meanwhile, Tigh returns to his room and begins drinking to excess, finishing off one bottle and starting another.&lt;br /&gt;
* In a Raptor, Athena and Racetrack jump into range of the Lion Head&#039;s Nebula, and are excited to find what the Scrolls described. They quickly realize, however, that they have jumped right next to the dying Basestar.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== On a [[Basestar (RDM)|Basestar]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gaius Baltar]], onboard the Cylon basestar, is having another hallucination. On a sunny beach, Gaius praises Six for returning to him in his time of need, and states that he enjoys having conversations with her. Six implores him to learn anything and everything about the Cylons, as he will need the information in the days ahead. Six also tells him that the Cylons use forms of projection to see the world around them, and when asked what she is, Six tells Baltar that she is an angel of God.&lt;br /&gt;
*Having been allowed to stay on the [[Basestar]], [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Three]] talk with Baltar later on, inquiring about the location of [[Earth]]. Gaius initially denies having any knowledge of where Earth is, but then reveals that he does have clues as to where its probable location is. He then finds out that the [[Cylons]] intend to find Earth so they can use it as their new home.&lt;br /&gt;
*Baltar is apprehensive about helping the Cylons, and Caprica-Six tells him that the Cylons are also leery as to whether his intentions are true or not. Caprica-Six leads Baltar through the ship, telling him that she uses a projection of a forest to navigate the ship. In his mind, Baltar realizes that his form of projection is similar to what the Cylons are using, causing him to question whether he is human or a Cylon.&lt;br /&gt;
*Caprica-Six informs Gaius that his rescue of [[Hera]] and his assistance in finding Earth has made him a valuable asset, and has gone a long way in impressing the Cylons. Baltar asks why there are only 7 models on the ship, and inquires about the remaining 5 models. Caprica-Six informs him that they don&#039;t talk about it. He asks whether they would recognize one of the others, but their conversation is interrupted by Three before she can answer.&lt;br /&gt;
* Three informs Caprica-Six that there is a situation, and a [[Five]] states that the basestar that went to check the pulsar has not responded back. The group head to a control center, where Baltar finds out that the missing basestar has been infected by a disease, and that any Cylon that dies and uploads to a [[Resurrection Ship]] will spread the virus even further. On the urge of his internal Six, Baltar offers to board the infected basestar and collect scientific information.&lt;br /&gt;
* Before he leaves on his mission, Baltar encounters the Cylon hybrid that controls the functions of the basestar. The hybrid is hooked into the systems on the ship, and continually vocalizes her seemingly non-sensical thoughts. Caprica-Six informs Gaius that it is thought by most of the Cylon models that the hybrid has gone insane from being connected to the [[Basestar]] and that her words hold no meaning, however the [[Leoben]] model takes the hybrid&#039;s words as coming from God.&lt;br /&gt;
* The Cylons provide Baltar with a Raptor to board the baseship, and when he arrives, he finds numerous Cylons, either dead or dying. He collects blood samples and takes pictures of the area to bring back for analysis, and also finds a large manmade object in the hold of the ship. He then finds a dying [[Six]] model (curiously with black hair), who informs him that the device the Cylons captured, a probe left by the [[13th Colony]], infected all of them, and wants to die so she can be released from her pain. Even though Gaius offers to bring her help, she tries to attack him, and Gaius strangles her to death.&lt;br /&gt;
* Upon his return to the Basestar, Gaius denies finding anything that could have caused the outbreak of the virus, but Caprica-Six notices the probe object in Baltar&#039;s picture, but doesn&#039;t let on to anyone else what she has discovered.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions ==&lt;br /&gt;
* Would it be possible for the Colonials to salvage the derelict basestar for their own purposes?&lt;br /&gt;
* What has happened to the remaining five Cylon models? Are they so secretive that none of the other 7 variants have any knowledge of them? Did the Cylons permanently box the other models because they were dissenters to the cause of the Cylon race?&lt;br /&gt;
* What is Caprica-Six going to do now that she realizes Baltar may be withholding critically sensitive information?&lt;br /&gt;
* Cally and Chief Tyrol as seen both working on the deck. Who is taking care of their baby? Has a system been put in place to take care of crewmembers&#039; babies?&lt;br /&gt;
* Is Athena infected with the Cylon virus?&lt;br /&gt;
* As the probe is supposed to come from the 13th Tribe, and is affecting Cylons, does that mean that Cylons have been exisiting in times of the 13th Tribe? (or is just by accident that is viral for Cylons?)&lt;br /&gt;
** What is the &amp;quot;genetic pool&amp;quot; that the human form Cylons all come from, and has it existed for longer than the Cylons themselves?&lt;br /&gt;
** Could the people on Earth be aware &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;currently&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; that the Cylons are after them, and have sent the probe to hinder the Cylons&#039; efforts?&lt;br /&gt;
** The probe may have worked this time, but now the Cylons are aware of the danger it presents, and they won&#039;t fall for it again. Does that mean that for each of the 12 constellations, there will be a new &amp;quot;trick&amp;quot; that Earthlings use to hinder the Cylons&#039; efforts to find Earth?&lt;br /&gt;
* Is the virus biological or technological in nature?  The &amp;quot;inevitable once we took human form&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;genetic pool&amp;quot; lines indicate that the Cylons think it is biological.  On the other hand, their belief that it could survive through a download process implies that it is technological in nature (i.e. computer virus).  This would seem to be a contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Analysis ==&lt;br /&gt;
*The crew-position shuffle continues from last episode, but some definite decisions have been made:&lt;br /&gt;
**Lee has been demoted back to Major, and has resumed the CAG slot, with Kat and Hot Dog as senior pilots under him. Kara is as well, until Lee revokes her flight status for reckless behaviour.&lt;br /&gt;
**As mentioned, it seems Kat has been demoted from CAG to leader of Blue Group (Although &amp;quot;Blue Group&amp;quot; may only exist for training purposes and not be a permanent viper squadron).&lt;br /&gt;
**As implied in &amp;quot;Collaborators&amp;quot;, Helo has resumed the XO slot aboard &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
**Gaeta appears to have inherited Baltar&#039;s mantle as the scientific advisor (it is unclear whether he holds any additional positions), and is focusing his efforts on refining a course for Earth.&lt;br /&gt;
**Cally is shown working the flight deck alongside her husband, showing that she is once again active in the Fleet.&lt;br /&gt;
*Following her actions during the Battle of New Caprica, Sharon seems to have garnered some degree of acceptance among the &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; air group.&lt;br /&gt;
*Sharon Agathon is given the callsign &amp;quot;Athena&amp;quot; in this episode. As [[Hot Dog]] states, it is the name of a [[Athena, Lord of Kobol|Lord of Kobol]]. It is also the name of [[Athena (TOS)|Adama&#039;s daughter]] in the original series, and may be a metafictional allusion to the now-close relationship between Sharon and William Adama.&lt;br /&gt;
*The Baseship hybrid appears to be viewed by the Cylons in the same way as the Centurions and Raiders.  The hybrid has no vote in the Cylon decision-making process, despite its ability to express its thoughts and feelings, after a fashion.&lt;br /&gt;
*The Cylons apparently have a [[Raptor]] at their disposal, no doubt they would have aquired it during the Occupation of [[New Caprica]], but It also makes you wonder what other Colonial Ships they have.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Notes ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*According to an [http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/4175/58/ interview] with executive producer [[David Eick]], episodes 5 and 6 are a two-part story in which &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; discovers a dying Cylon Baseship, and deals with a plague that has befallen the Cylons. (Eick is counting &amp;quot;Occupation&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Precipice&amp;quot; as one episode.)&lt;br /&gt;
*The phrase &amp;quot;End of line.&amp;quot;, uttered by the Cylon hybrid in this episode, is a possible reference to the film &amp;quot;Tron&amp;quot;, in which the Master Control Program finishes it&#039;s sentences with the phrase, &amp;quot;End of line.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Noteworthy Dialogue ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Adama&#039;s feelings towards, and regarding, Starbuck&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Adama&#039;&#039;&#039;: You were like a daughter to me once - no more. You&#039;re malcontent and a cancer, and I won&#039;t have you on my ship. So you have a choice - you can figure out how to become a human being again, and an officer; or you can find another place to live, off of this ship. You&#039;re dismissed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The Hybrid&#039;s objecttion to leaving the infected Basestar behind&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Hybrid&#039;&#039;&#039;: Mists of dreams drip along the nascent echo, and love no more. End of line.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Guest Stars ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;font-size:85%&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Episodes directed by Jean de Segonzac]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:RDM]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Torn&amp;diff=90047</id>
		<title>Torn</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Torn&amp;diff=90047"/>
		<updated>2006-11-08T17:50:33Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Yaneh: /* Questions */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Episode Data&lt;br /&gt;
| title= Torn&lt;br /&gt;
| image=Season 3 - Promo - Epi 5 - StarbuckTighAdama.jpg&lt;br /&gt;
| season= 3&lt;br /&gt;
| episode= 6&lt;br /&gt;
| guests= &lt;br /&gt;
| writer= [[Anne Cofell Saunders]]&lt;br /&gt;
| story= &lt;br /&gt;
| director= [[Jean de Segonzac]]&lt;br /&gt;
| production= &lt;br /&gt;
| rating=&lt;br /&gt;
| US airdate= 2006-11-03&lt;br /&gt;
| UK airdate=&lt;br /&gt;
| dvd=&lt;br /&gt;
| population= 41,422&lt;br /&gt;
| prev= [[Collaborators]]&lt;br /&gt;
| next= [[A Measure of Salvation]]&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Overview ==&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;Part one of two. [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] create divisions between those who suffered under the Cylon occupation of [[New Caprica]] and those who stayed with the fleet. Meanwhile, [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] tries to prove his worth to the Cylons. &amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;TVGuide&amp;quot;&amp;gt;{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvguide.com/detail/tv-show.aspx?episodeid=6006095&amp;amp;tvobjectid=191395&amp;amp;more=ucepisodelist|title=Episode Detail for Torn at www.tvguide.com}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== On [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
* &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;&#039;s air group runs war game exercises among the viper pilots. Captain Thrace breaks formation during the exercise and collides with another pilot, forcing an end to the war games, and causing Apollo to remove her from flight duty.&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gaeta|Felix Gaeta]] meets with [[Laura Roslin]], [[William Adama]], and [[Saul Tigh]] to discuss matters Baltar related. During the year before the Cylon Occupation of New Caprica, Baltar was obsessed with analyzing the data from Kobol to find the path to Earth. Based on passages in the [[Pythia|Scrolls of Pythia]], Baltar identified a nebula he believed to be a landmark on the road to Earth.&lt;br /&gt;
* Upon Thrace&#039;s return to her bunk, she is met by Kacey and her mother, whom she dismisses, telling the Kacey&#039;s mother not to come again.&lt;br /&gt;
* In the pilots&#039; mess, Lt. [[Sharon Agathon]] is given the callsign &amp;quot;[[Athena]].&amp;quot; Thrace and Tigh begin to sow dissent between the survivors of New Caprica and the crew that stayed behind on &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
* Adama confronts Thrace and Tigh on their behavior. He challenges them to shoot him, as their constant complaining is tantamount to pulling the trigger. When neither do, Adama demands they shape up and move on with their lives.&lt;br /&gt;
* Spurred by Adama&#039;s words, Thrace cuts her hair and appears to return to duty. Later, in uniform, she visits [[Kacey]] and her mother.&lt;br /&gt;
* Meanwhile, Tigh returns to his room and begins drinking to excess, finishing off one bottle and starting another.&lt;br /&gt;
* In a Raptor, Athena and Racetrack jump into range of the Lion Head&#039;s Nebula, and are excited to find what the Scrolls described. They quickly realize, however, that they have jumped right next to the dying Basestar.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== On a [[Basestar (RDM)|Basestar]] ===&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gaius Baltar]], onboard the Cylon basestar, is having another hallucination. On a sunny beach, Gaius praises Six for returning to him in his time of need, and states that he enjoys having conversations with her. Six implores him to learn anything and everything about the Cylons, as he will need the information in the days ahead. Six also tells him that the Cylons use forms of projection to see the world around them, and when asked what she is, Six tells Baltar that she is an angel of God.&lt;br /&gt;
*Having been allowed to stay on the [[Basestar]], [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Three]] talk with Baltar later on, inquiring about the location of [[Earth]]. Gaius initially denies having any knowledge of where Earth is, but then reveals that he does have clues as to where its probable location is. He then finds out that the [[Cylons]] intend to find Earth so they can use it as their new home.&lt;br /&gt;
*Baltar is apprehensive about helping the Cylons, and Caprica-Six tells him that the Cylons are also leery as to whether his intentions are true or not. Caprica-Six leads Baltar through the ship, telling him that she uses a projection of a forest to navigate the ship. In his mind, Baltar realizes that his form of projection is similar to what the Cylons are using, causing him to question whether he is human or a Cylon.&lt;br /&gt;
*Caprica-Six informs Gaius that his rescue of [[Hera]] and his assistance in finding Earth has made him a valuable asset, and has gone a long way in impressing the Cylons. Baltar asks why there are only 7 models on the ship, and inquires about the remaining 5 models. Caprica-Six informs him that they don&#039;t talk about it. He asks whether they would recognize one of the others, but their conversation is interrupted by Three before she can answer.&lt;br /&gt;
* Three informs Caprica-Six that there is a situation, and a [[Five]] states that the basestar that went to check the pulsar has not responded back. The group head to a control center, where Baltar finds out that the missing basestar has been infected by a disease, and that any Cylon that dies and uploads to a [[Resurrection Ship]] will spread the virus even further. On the urge of his internal Six, Baltar offers to board the infected basestar and collect scientific information.&lt;br /&gt;
* Before he leaves on his mission, Baltar encounters the Cylon hybrid that controls the functions of the basestar. The hybrid is hooked into the systems on the ship, and continually vocalizes her seemingly non-sensical thoughts. Caprica-Six informs Gaius that it is thought by most of the Cylon models that the hybrid has gone insane from being connected to the [[Basestar]] and that her words hold no meaning, however the [[Leoben]] model takes the hybrid&#039;s words as coming from God.&lt;br /&gt;
* The Cylons provide Baltar with a Raptor to board the baseship, and when he arrives, he finds numerous Cylons, either dead or dying. He collects blood samples and takes pictures of the area to bring back for analysis, and also finds a large manmade object in the hold of the ship. He then finds a dying [[Six]] model (curiously with black hair), who informs him that the device the Cylons captured, a probe left by the [[13th Colony]], infected all of them, and wants to die so she can be released from her pain. Even though Gaius offers to bring her help, she tries to attack him, and Gaius strangles her to death.&lt;br /&gt;
* Upon his return to the Basestar, Gaius denies finding anything that could have caused the outbreak of the virus, but Caprica-Six notices the probe object in Baltar&#039;s picture, but doesn&#039;t let on to anyone else what she has discovered.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions ==&lt;br /&gt;
* Would it be possible for the Colonials to salvage the derelict basestar for their own purposes?&lt;br /&gt;
* What has happened to the remaining five Cylon models? Are they so secretive that none of the other 7 variants have any knowledge of them? Did the Cylons permanently box the other models because they were dissenters to the cause of the Cylon race?&lt;br /&gt;
* What is Caprica-Six going to do now that she realizes Baltar may be withholding critically sensitive information?&lt;br /&gt;
* Cally and Chief Tyrol as seen both working on the deck. Who is taking care of their baby? Has a system been put in place to take care of crewmembers&#039; babies?&lt;br /&gt;
* Is Athena infected with the Cylon virus?&lt;br /&gt;
* As the probe is supposed to come from the 13th Tribe, and is affecting Cylons, does that mean that Cylons have been exisiting in times of the 13th Tribe? (or is just by accident that is viral for Cylons?)&lt;br /&gt;
** What is the &amp;quot;genetic pool&amp;quot; that the human form Cylons all come from, and has it existed for longer than the Cylons themselves?&lt;br /&gt;
** Could the people on Earth be aware &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;currently&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; that the Cylons are after then, and have sent the probe to hinder their efforts?&lt;br /&gt;
** The probe may have worked this time, but now the Cylons are aware of the danger it presents, and they won&#039;t fall for it again. Does that mean that for each of the 12 constellations, there will be a new &amp;quot;trick&amp;quot; that Earthlings use to hinder the Cylons&#039; efforts to find Earth?&lt;br /&gt;
* Is the virus biological or technological in nature?  The &amp;quot;inevitable once we took human form&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;genetic pool&amp;quot; lines indicate that the Cylons think it is biological.  On the other hand, their belief that it could survive through a download process implies that it is technological in nature (i.e. computer virus).  This would seem to be a contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Analysis ==&lt;br /&gt;
*The crew-position shuffle continues from last episode, but some definite decisions have been made:&lt;br /&gt;
**Lee has been demoted back to Major, and has resumed the CAG slot, with Kat and Hot Dog as senior pilots under him. Kara is as well, until Lee revokes her flight status for reckless behaviour.&lt;br /&gt;
**As mentioned, it seems Kat has been demoted from CAG to leader of Blue Group (Although &amp;quot;Blue Group&amp;quot; may only exist for training purposes and not be a permanent viper squadron).&lt;br /&gt;
**As implied in &amp;quot;Collaborators&amp;quot;, Helo has resumed the XO slot aboard &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
**Gaeta appears to have inherited Baltar&#039;s mantle as the scientific advisor (it is unclear whether he holds any additional positions), and is focusing his efforts on refining a course for Earth.&lt;br /&gt;
**Cally is shown working the flight deck alongside her husband, showing that she is once again active in the Fleet.&lt;br /&gt;
*Following her actions during the Battle of New Caprica, Sharon seems to have garnered some degree of acceptance among the &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; air group.&lt;br /&gt;
*Sharon Agathon is given the callsign &amp;quot;Athena&amp;quot; in this episode. As [[Hot Dog]] states, it is the name of a [[Athena, Lord of Kobol|Lord of Kobol]]. It is also the name of [[Athena (TOS)|Adama&#039;s daughter]] in the original series, and may be a metafictional allusion to the now-close relationship between Sharon and William Adama.&lt;br /&gt;
*The Baseship hybrid appears to be viewed by the Cylons in the same way as the Centurions and Raiders.  The hybrid has no vote in the Cylon decision-making process, despite its ability to express its thoughts and feelings, after a fashion.&lt;br /&gt;
*The Cylons apparently have a [[Raptor]] at their disposal, no doubt they would have aquired it during the Occupation of [[New Caprica]], but It also makes you wonder what other Colonial Ships they have.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Notes ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*According to an [http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/4175/58/ interview] with executive producer [[David Eick]], episodes 5 and 6 are a two-part story in which &#039;&#039;Galactica&#039;&#039; discovers a dying Cylon Baseship, and deals with a plague that has befallen the Cylons. (Eick is counting &amp;quot;Occupation&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Precipice&amp;quot; as one episode.)&lt;br /&gt;
*The phrase &amp;quot;End of line.&amp;quot;, uttered by the Cylon hybrid in this episode, is a possible reference to the film &amp;quot;Tron&amp;quot;, in which the Master Control Program finishes it&#039;s sentences with the phrase, &amp;quot;End of line.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Noteworthy Dialogue ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Adama&#039;s feelings towards, and regarding, Starbuck&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Adama&#039;&#039;&#039;: You were like a daughter to me once - no more. You&#039;re malcontent and a cancer, and I won&#039;t have you on my ship. So you have a choice - you can figure out how to become a human being again, and an officer; or you can find another place to live, off of this ship. You&#039;re dismissed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The Hybrid&#039;s objecttion to leaving the infected Basestar behind&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Hybrid&#039;&#039;&#039;: Mists of dreams drip along the nascent echo, and love no more. End of line.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Guest Stars ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;font-size:85%&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Episodes directed by Jean de Segonzac]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:RDM]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Yaneh</name></author>
	</entry>
</feed>