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Daybreak, Part I

2009-03-18T04:32:26Z

Viperetto13: /* Analysis */

{{Episode Data
| image=FirstDaybreak.jpg
| title=Daybreak, Part I
| season= 4
| episode=19
| guests=
| writer= [[Ronald D. Moore]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production=421
| rating=
| US airdate=March 13, 2009 <ref>http://tv.ign.com/articles/920/920164p1.html</ref>
| CAN airdate=March 13, 2009
| UK airdate=March 17, 2009
| dvd=
| population=39516
| oldpopulation=39521
| prev=[[Islanded In a Stream of Stars ]]
| next=[[Daybreak, Part II]]
| forumthread= 2994
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] begins to be stripped of parts, and [[William Adama|Adama]] calls for volunteers for a final mission.''

== Summary ==

=== Act 1 ===
'''In Caprica City'''
*The Act opens with a montage, including a galaxy, a bird trapped in a skylight, water falling into a pool, and light over a planet. A shot of a city can be seen, with the words "Caprica City - Before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Fall]]".
*[[William Adama|Bill Adama]], wearing civilian clothes, is conversing with another gentleman in a shaded room. Adama talks about his combat experience, commanding billions of cubits of men and materials, but doesn't want to go through with something. The man responds that he's only asking for one hour of his time, and that "sometimes there are things that you gotta do."
*Across the city, Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] is speaking with [[Caprica-Six]] in a limo, talking briefly about having things done for you as opposed to being independent. Baltar and Caprica-Six begin fooling around in the limo, when a call comes through. Baltar is immediately shaken, he apologizes, and asks the other person to wait for him. The other person sounds ready to leave, but Baltar tells the person on the other end to wait for him, or he will sue them for abandonment.
*[[Laura Roslin]] is sending out the last guest from a baby shower she hosted for her sister. Laura and her two younger sisters then sit on the couch, celebrating and laughing together.
*In an apartment kitchen, [[Kara Thrace]] is contemplating something and preparing food when the doorbell rings. Kara is surprised, saying they're early, and greets [[Lee Adama]] at the door, carrying flowers. Kara invites him in, and calls for Zak. [[Zak Adama]] comes out and greets his brother, and introduces Kara as his girlfriend.
*Baltar pleads with Nurse Barbara to stay with his father [[Julius Baltar|Julius]] at his apartment, after she is stabbed with a steak knife, but she refuses and leaves. Caprica-Six walks in, despite Baltar's instructions to stay in the car. Baltar starts berating his father over the fact that he's driven away three nurses, at great cost to him, while his father starts talking about Baltar's past. Baltar starts yelling and hitting his father, demanding that he shut up. Baltar then sends Caprica-Six away, saying he will be spending the rest of the evening with his father.
*Laura Roslin is approached by two Caprica City Police officers at her apartment. The two inform her that the night before, her father and her sisters died in a car accident. The other driver survived, and was intoxicated at the time of the accident. Roslin, upset, calmly asks the officers to leave. She stands in her apartment, alone, thinking, and then walks to a park in her nightgown. She rests her feet in the fountain, and then wades in the water, and rests on a nearby rock, letting the splashing water wash over her. The drops of water falling into the pond match what was seen in the earlier montage.

'''Aboard [[Galactica|''Galactica'']]'''
*The scene cuts to an IV drip, overlooking Laura Roslin resting in Sickbay.
*In the Hangar Bay, Lee Adama is complaining about the amount of materials the ship captains want from ''Galactica''. Lee is signing a number of documents, when a deckhand argues over the fact that the magnetic accelerators are being stripped. While Lee points out that they can be used as autoloaders for the civilian ships, the deckhand says that "it's like tearing the old girl's heart out", as it's used in launching Vipers. Lee compromises that the accelerators will be last thing they remove from ''Galactica'', then they'll "turn out the lights, and let the old girl die in peace."

=== Act 2 ===
'''Aboard [[Galactica|''Galactica'']]'''
*The act opens with [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] finished packing the last of his belongings into boxes to be moved to the Cylon basestar. As the last of his belongings is closed, the rattling of the hull can be heard overhead.
*Paulla tells [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] that they now control a majority in at least half the ships in the fleet. While Paulla continues to cheer about their political power, Baltar looks up to see [[Virtual Six]]. Six points out that "humanity's final chapter is about to be written," with him as the author. Baltar turns back to Paulla, thinking back.
*In [[Sam Anders|Anders']] room, [[Kara Thrace|Kara]] sits with him, contemplating the notes she got from Hera ([[Someone to Watch Over Me]]). With equations and notes, Kara continues to ponder.
*In the CIC, Lt. [[Hoshi]] is cleaning up a spill, while Tigh is announcing that the Admiral will fly out the last Viper personally. He orders that the deck gang keep one launch tube intact and ready for remote activation. Tigh comments on Hoshi's inability to clean up the spill, saying "you won't make Admiral like that."
*In the brig, [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and an imprisoned [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] argue over the uniqueness of the Eights. Helo points out that Tyrol's relationship with Boomer, much like his with Athena's, are unique. Tyrol scoffs, calling himself a "frakkin' idiot" for not realizing that they're just machines, not people. The Eights are all the same "...because [[Final Five|''we'']] made them the same." Tyrol says that they can't be trusted, at which point, Helo ends the conversation abruptly.

'''In Caprica City'''
*As Baltar escorts a lovely young woman into his house, he walks in to find [[Caprica-Six]] there, sitting. Baltar shoos the young woman upstairs, while Baltar declares Caprica an intruder and orders her out. Caprica-Six mentions that she had Julius moved to the Regency, a full-time care facility. Caprica mentions that he loves his new arrangements, and that the last time she saw him, he seemed happy.

'''Inside the Colony'''
*Hera is drawing notes on a large paper, while [[Number One|Cavil]] points out that they're just "little dots." [[Number Four|Simon]] suggests that they feed Hera through tubes, while [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] insists that she's just missing her mother. Cavil rejects this idea coldly, saying Hera is just a hybrid who holds the key to Cylon salvation, nothing more. Cavil leaves as Simon prepares a large needle with Hera and Boomer in view.

=== Act 3 ===
{{expansion}}

=== Act 4 ===

=== Act 5 ===

== Notes ==

* This episode is the first part of a three hour series finale<ref>http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html</ref>.
* The episode does not have an opening teaser beyond the "Previously..." segment and a brief depiction of Galactica deckhands and several Baseship Number Eight pilots guiding passengers to ships and other ''Galactica'' bound ships from the Baseship. Nor does the opening credits include clips from the episode, the first time this has happened since the start of Season 3.
*We finally learn [[Sherman Cottle|Cottle]]'s first name: Sherman. Adama calls him by it when telling him he's too valuable for the fleet to lose.
* It is revealed that [[Laura Roslin]] had two sisters (one pregnant), and that they and her father were killed in an automobile accident at some point before she was appointed as Secretary of Education under the Adar Administration.
* Baltar's father appears for the first time, and it's confirmed that Baltar's accent is an affected one as Baltar had previously admitted to doing so in [[Dirty Hands]].
*A couple of years before the Fall it seems that Lee Adama liked to get drunk and carouse. This is in stark contrast post Fall to his sober and controlled demeanor who looked on with disdain over Kara's, Colonel Tigh's and even his own father's drinking problems.
* Baltar specifically told [[Caprica Six]] he forgot her name, albeit it is possible that he has yet to learn it, despite having a relationship with her.
* Cultural oddity: keep an eye on the rear window of Baltar's limo for a recognizable Vancouver, B.C. street sign.
* After several episodes leaving the facts open to speculation, it is confirmed that the ''Galactica'' pilots that took part in the mutiny, such as [[Racetrack]], were incarcerated and not executed. Ronald D. Moore had previously said that Racetrack, [[Skulls]] and other mutiny participants were confined on the prison ship ''[[Astral Queen]]'' in his podcast for [[Deadlock]]. Also confirmed [[Galen Tyrol]] was imprisoned for his role in unwittingly helping Boomer to escape with Hera (a scene indicating this was filmed for "[[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]" but cut from the televised version).
* For the first time in many episodes, the six surviving members of the [[Significant Seven]] appear in the same episode (albeit [[Leoben]] appears only in the opening recap). This was the first time we have seen a [[Doral]] or a [[Simon]] since [[The Hub]].
* In the flashback to Starbuck's apartment, the painting of the Eye of Jupiter can be seen behind her when she opens the door.
*As Hybrid Anders is reciting his seemingly random phrases to a listening Admiral Adama and Captain Thrace he says "Slip the surly bonds of Earth and touch the face of perfection" This is a variation of a real life quote made by [[Wikipedia:John Gillespie Magee, Jr|John Gillespie Magee, Jr.]] in his 1941 poem [[Wikipedia: High Flight|High Flight]]: "Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..." [http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/highflig.htm] The poem goes on and concludes with "Put out my hand and touched the face of God." This was quoted by Ronald Reagan much closer to Ander's rendition on January 28, 1986 when addressing the nation after the Challenger disaster "We will never forget them this morning as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God."
*At the end of the episode, Lee Adama can be seen wearing his old Major's [[Uniforms (RDM)#Regular uniform|uniform]] (with white piping), but without his [[Military Ranks (RDM)#Insignia|rank insignia]] or [[Insignia (RDM)#Pilot wings|pilot wings]].
* The known volunteers for the mission include Laura Roslin, Lee Adama, Kara Thrace, Helo, Caprica Six, the Final Five, Hoshi, Nurse Ishay, Hot Dog, Racetrack, and Skulls. Athena is presumably also on this mission despite her giving up hope her daughter is alive since she is present and remained on the starboard side with Helo. Doc Cottle initially volunteers for the mission, but stays behind at Adama's request. Although Gaius Baltar does not volunteer, he seems to be highly conflicted with himself.

== Analysis ==
*Cavil plans to use Hera to find out how she was created in order to continue the Cylon species, presumably through normal reproduction.
**It also proves Cavil intends to dissect Hera to discover the secret of procreation, confirming both Starbuck's and Athena's worst fears.
*Roslin likely feels quite protective of Hera as despite being barely able to walk, she volunteers for the rescue mission (although her love for Adama likely also played a part in her decision).
*Cottle may be either the best doctor in the fleet or one of the only ones as Adama says he's too valuable for the fleet to lose on the rescue mission.
*Baltar seems conflicted when volunteers are called. This inner conflict stems from his earlier conversation with Lee Adama where he confessed that he had never done anything for purely selfless motivations with no gain for himself. He does not, however, cross the line and join the volunteers.
** If Baltar does join, then it would seem likely that all the elements are in place to fulfill the Opera House vision: Athena, Roslin, Caprica Six and Baltar will all be in pursuit of Hera.
** Baltar's Virtual Six has told him many times that he is supposed to be Hera's guardian and "father". It seems incongruous with his destiny for him not to join a mission to rescue Hera.
*It's clear that despite his controversial choices, Adama still commands a great deal of loyalty and respect from the crew. Much of the crew - or what's left of it - volunteers for the mission. At the very least, Adama has enough people with him to take ''Galactica'' into battle.
** It should be noted that although the non-volunteers appear to outnumber the volunteers at least two-to-one, many of the non-volunteers are civilians.
** It should also be noted that almost all the Marines volunteer for the mission.
*In the brig Tyrol tells Helo-who is surprisingly civil even sympathetic toward Tyrol given his hand in the abduction-that they are all the same referring to the Eights. He says it as a word of advice and warning. That they made them the same and therefore can only expect betrayal from Athena as what happened to Tyrol at the hands of Boomer. However, given the fact that he has no first hand knowledge of making the Eights and the other seven Cylon models and the psychic pain Galen suffered at the betrayal, his opinion most likely comes from deep, deep, abiding pain and not a intellectual analysis in his disregard of the individuality of Athena and the other Eights and particularly Athena's track record of loyalty. This also maybe a case of misery loves company and Tyrol, subconsciously or knowingly, wants to see Helo and Athena split up to allay his own feelings of being duped, by saying they are all a like and putting doubt in Helo's mind. Also, by claiming that Athena and the other Eights are just machines this could mitigate the guilt for his role in the abduction and possible death of Hera. If Athena is just a machine, then she cannot be hurt emotionally. She has no emotions, just a programmed facsimile. Tyrol wouldn't have to feel responsible for such pain he caused her since, as a machine, she can't really feel it, sparing '''''himself''''' a lot of pain and guilt.
*Tyrol is himself a Cylon machine, so his rant speaks of denial and projected self-hatred as well as bitterness.
*The finale appears to be taking a character-driven approach, devoting significant screen time to pivotal flashbacks for the central characters that relate to their current circumstances.
**We see the first time Starbuck and Apollo' met, with hints alluding to their future romantic relationship.
**Roslin deals with the sudden death of her sisters and father by wading into a fountain, which she uses to disguise the tears that she shed for the lost of her family. The gushing water cuts to a shot of her IV drip as she lies dying on Galactica.
**Baltar and Caprica-Six begin their relationship with an act of compassion on Six's part towards Baltar's father. Baltar's selfishness, a theme raised repeatedly in the episode, is contrasted with Caprica Six's seemingly genuine concern for [[Julius Baltar|Julius]].
*One of the shots in the opening sequence is of a sun rising over a blue planet: daybreak. The theme may symbolize an end to the fleet's long four years of gloom and darkness.
**In that image of the planet, Antarctica is clearly seen, specifically the Ronne Ice Shelf, Queen Maud Land, and the Antarctic Peninsula. Where southern South America and southern Africa would be, the surface is covered by clouds, and the location of southern Australia/New Zealand is too dark. Although not as recognizable as the image of North America in [[Crossroads, Part II]], it is clear that the planet shown here is our Earth.
***Despite the similarities, the sun and the stars are in the wrong position for this to be our Earth. More than likely, the planet being depicted is Caprica. Especially when the sequence is taken as a whole: The Galaxy, Sun rise over a planet, In orbit over the planet, then a helicopter like fly over of Caprica City heavily implies that was Caprica as the planet we saw.
*Hera is drawing "dots", as Cavil calls them, on the Colony. These are much more numerous than the simple line that she gave Starbuck, its at least a full page long. It seems to be an entire musical score. However, not knowing that they are music notes, Cavil doesn't see this.
*Someone left a picture of Athena about to kiss Hera on the head on the now abandoned memorial wall. It may have been Athena herself, who has given up on Hera's survival.
* Baltar's reaction to Lee's accusation that he has never done a selfless thing in his life shows how much the character of Baltar has grown, especially in the Fourth Season. Previously, whenever someone called Baltar's motives or attributes(especially his loyalty) into question, he reacted very passionately, and angrily, to defend himself(and often led to him being coaxed into doing what Virtual Six wanted, to the detriment of the humans in the fleet). On this occasion, however, Baltar not only does not even attempt to defend himself, he resignedly admits that he wouldn't trust him either(tacitly admitting both that Lee is correct in his assertion and that his self-serving actions have been extremely detrimental in the past). This change in attitude visibly surprises Lee who seems quite taken aback and appears to momentarily contemplate talking to Baltar again when he returns to the Hanger Deck.
* Adama's decision to rescue Hera was prompted by Constanza's remarks about saving the photos of his fallen comrades because he didn't want to leave them behind. It should not then be surprising to see that Constanza was one of the first pilots(not counting Lee Adama) to cross the line and join in the potential suicide mission with Adama.
* Ander's flashback of his life before the War contains an interesting aspect of Anders not seen before. Though he was implanted with memories of being a "jock", but when he candidly spoke to the sports reporter, he revealed a more intellectual and artistic side of himself. This may be a hint of his former personality(probably a scientist) before Cavil blocked his memories.
**He was not implanted with memories of being a jock. He was a famous player on Caprica, probably as famous as Derick Jeter or Tiger Woods in reality. Many people in the Caprican Resistance, on ''Galactica'' in the Fleet must had been a [[Caprica Buccaneers]] fans and would had said: "I don't remember you and I followed the team religiously." He lead that life just like Saul Tigh was really a friend of Adama's for 40 years. What happened their memories of their real selves were blocked and some background information like where they were born and went to school and such implanted but the careers they lead were real, especially the very public Anders.
* In a humorous side commentary, Skulls points out that many of the dangerous or lethal Raptor missions are usually given to him and Racetrack. Historically, this has been true as the duo have been pivotal for discoveries such as New Caprica, receiving the first message from the Resistance, discovering that the Cylons were tracking the fleet to the Nebula.
* Skull's comment of "The more things change the more they stay the same." is a different twist of quoting the Pythian Prophecy that "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again." The phrase is a common proverb in English, indicating that surface changes only serve to reveal enduring underlying constants. It is derived from a French epigram by novelist Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr (1808-1890), "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

== Questions ==
{{cleanup}}
=== Flashbacks ===
* To what is Adama's flashback conversation referring?
* Who was the drunk driver that killed Roslin's sisters and father? Is he alive in the fleet today?
* Who is Sean Allison and why does his name sound familiar to Roslin?
* What is the time frame for the flashbacks, and is it the same for all characters?

===Mission to save Hera===
* How is [[Sam Anders]] able to provide the new location of [[the Colony]]? What transpired between him, Starbuck, and Adama?
* How many of the jailed mutineers volunteer to participate in the mission?
* As the episode began, ''Galactica'' was already being cannibalized for parts; does this mean it will be lacking vital components during the upcoming mission, or has Adama stopped the salvaging?

===Cavil's Plan===
* Has Cavil given up on the idea of salvaging Resurrection Technology?

===Miscellaneous===
*With [[William Adama|Commander Adama]], [[Saul Tigh|XO Tigh]], [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] and [[Lee Adama|Vice-President Lee Adama]] all joining the Hera rescue mission, who will assume military and political leadership of the Fleet?
* With [[Hotdog]] being one of the volunteers, and especially being aware that he may not return alive, who will take care of Nicholas?
*With Tyrol on the rebound from Sharon Valerii, will Tory Foster and Tyrol renew their romance despite not having their original memories?
* At the very beginning of the episode, an image of the galaxy is displayed which includes several prominent stars in bright colors... is there a connection to Hera's multicolored "dots"? Do her notes represent stars, and will the sequence provide a map that leads to somewhere?
* Will the Cylon baseship remain with the civilian fleet or will they also join in on the rescue mission to save Hera?

== Official Statements ==

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
:"No one should feel obligated to join this mission in any way. This is a decision I have made for myself. If it turns out that there are not enough personnel to crew [[Galactica|''Galactica'']], I will lead a [[Raptor]] assault with anyone who is willing to join me. Let there be no illusions; this is likely to be a one-way trip! So don't volunteer out of sentiment or emotion. There is a line running down this deck. Volunteers, move to the starboard side; Everyone else, to the port. Make your choice!"
::--[[William_Adama|Admiral Adama's]] speech to the assembled crew.

:"You didn't think you were gonna to take off without me Admiral, did you?"
::--[[Laura Roslin]] volunteering for the rescue mission despite barely being able to walk.

:"Spins and turns, angles and curves. The shape of dreams, half remembered. Slip the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of perfection - a perfect face, perfect lace. Find the perfect world for the end of Kara Thrace. End of line."
::--[[Samuel Anders|Anders]]'s hybrid-speak when powered on to speak with [[Kara Thrace]] and [[William_Adama|Admiral Adama]].

:"She’s right, Gaius. The end times are approaching. Humanity’s final chapters are about to be written. And you - you will be its author."
::--[[Virtual Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]].

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
* [[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
* [[Dean Stockwell]] as [[Number One]]
* [[Rick Worthy]] as [[Number Four]]
* [[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Number Five]]
* [[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Dr. [[Sherman Cottle]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lieutenant [[Brendan Costanza|Brenden "Hotdog" Costanza]]
* [[Kerry Norton]] as [[Layne Ishay]]
* [[Lara Gilchrist]] as [[Paulla Schaffer]]
* [[Leela Savasta]] as [[Tracy Anne]]
* [[Tobias Mehler]] as [[Zak Adama]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lieutenant [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Brad Dryborough]] as Lieutenant [[Louis Hoshi]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as Lieutenant [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Colin Corrigan]] as Marine [[Allan Nowart]]
* [[Darcy Laurie]] as [[Dealino]]
* [[Finn R. Devitt]] as [[Nicholas Tyrol]]
* [[Iliana Gomez-Martinez]] as [[Hera Agathon]]
* [[Antony Holland]] as [[Julius Baltar]]
* [[Simone Bailly]] as [[Shona]]
* [[Elan Ross Gibson]] as Nurse [[Barbara]]
* [[France Perras]] as [[Sandra]]
* [[Sarah Deakins]] as [[Cheryl]]
* [[Tiffany Burns]] as Reporter [[Carolyn]]
* [[Kevin McNulty]] as [[Frank Porthos]]
* [[Stefanie Samuels]] as Police Officer
* [[Richard Jollymore]] as Marine #1
* [[Anthony St. John]] as Marine #2
* [[Leo Li Chiang]] as the [[tattooed pilot]] (uncredited)

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 4)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Ronald D. Moore]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

Daybreak, Part I

2009-03-15T18:37:59Z

Viperetto13: /* Notes */

Daybreak, Part I

2009-03-15T18:34:47Z

Viperetto13: /* Notes */

Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn

2009-03-10T04:53:35Z

Viperetto13: /* Notes */

:''For other uses of the name, see [[Aurora]].''

[[image:AuroraFigurine.jpg|thumb|right|A figurine of Aurora.]]
'''Aurora''' is the goddess of the dawn, and possibly one of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Lords of Kobol|Lords of Kobol]].

When [[Kara Thrace]] visits the [[oracle]] [[Brenn]] in [[Dogsville]], she touches a small winged icon of the goddess, which is then given to her by the oracle.

Thrace later gives the icon to Admiral [[William Adama]] as a figurehead to place on the bow of the [[H.M.S. Glutton o' Punishment|model sailing ship]] he is building ([[Maelstrom]]).

After Thrace's mysterious return, she is given command of the ''[[Demetrius]]'' to search for Earth and Adama gives her the figurine back. She keeps it on the table in her cabin and plays with it when she is frustrated about the lack of success ("[[Six of One]]", "[[The Ties That Bind]]"). <ref>The figurine can only be seen two short scenes towards the beginning of "[[The Ties That Bind]]" and at the end of "[[Escape Velocity]]". According to the [[Podcast:The Ties That Bind#Act 1|podcast]] for the former episode, the scene where Adama gives her the figurine was cut for time. A scene where she and Gaeta discuss Aurora was also cut.</ref>

According to the book of [[Pythia]], a [[temple]] dedicated to Aurora exists on [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. When the Fleet arrives there they find a ruined city with a structure very similar to the one depicted in the book, but probably don't immediately recognize it ([[Revelations]]).

== Notes ==
* After the events of the episode "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", there may be connection between this possible Lord of Kobol and Kara Thrace. For more on this story arc, see the article ''[[The Destiny]]''.
* Aurora's Greek counterpart is [[w:Eos|Eos]].
* When Adama shows Thrace the Book of Pythia in "Revelations", he flips to a page showing the [[City of the Gods]] on Kobol, which the camera lingers on. However, this is not the Temple of Aurora, which can be briefly [[:Image:AuroraBook.jpg|seen on another page]] he flips to and which is similar to the structure later seen on Earth.
* The final episode of the series is titled ''[[Daybreak,_Part_I|Daybreak]]''.
* More on the curious references to real-world Earth mythology and theology is available in the article ''[[Mythological references]]''.

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial History]]
[[Category:Colonial History (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial Society]]
[[Category:Colonial Society (RDM)]]
[[Category:Lords of Kobol]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Deadlock/Archive 1

2009-02-23T06:54:05Z

Viperetto13: /* How Tyrol ID'd Boomer */

-- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC){{newsection link}}

==Title==
''Someone to Watch Over Me'' [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden]. I think this one has been confirmed elsewhere as well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

After the thundering pace of the past two episodes, I have to say this one left me feeling cheated and hollow. The Ellen Tigh of "No Exit" seemed logical, thoughtful, caring, compassionate...in short, someone who we would expect to do the right thing. She seemed like someone who understood the Big Picture. This one acts just like Ellen Tigh before she was poisoned: petty, vindictive, emotional, and (as Saul put it) vile. The entire situation of her being angry at Saul seemed forced and contrived and was quite a disappointment. I might've expected Ellen to be surprised at Saul/Caprica, but not this. After all, she knows Saul (a) thought she was dead, (b) originally had no idea he was a Cylon, and (c) had no idea Ellen was a Cylon. It's logically ridiculous to hold him accountable for the decisions he made when he had no knowledge of how things really were. The old Ellen (the one John/Cavil/One programmed to be vindictive) would've been like this, but that persona was wiped away by her resurrection. The "real" Ellen was presumably the more logical one we saw in "No Exit." Why the sudden shift in characterization? What a let down.

And what's with Bill Adama agonizing over the Cylon goop being put into Galactica? Granted it's not what he would like, but Adama has always shown himself to be a pragmatist. He knows he has no choice. He even admits it during his drunken binge with Tigh. The Adama we know from the past hasn't agonized over forced choices once they've been made. Again, why the sudden shift in character? It's jarring to the point of unbelievability.

And what's Adama up to giving Baltar guns? Has he lost his mind? Didn't we just have a bloody mutiny on Galactica over the whole idea of Cylon's integrating into the fleet? As I recall, Adama was on the pro-Cylon side -- again, because he's a pragmatist, not out of any love of the Cylons. Now he's acting like he fears the Cylons all over again, despite the fact his XO is one and Tyrol is once again in charge of the deck. The rebel Cylons basically saved Roslin's life. They are helping repair the Galactica. They've practically prostrated themselves at the mercy of the humans. At what point do our half-blind humans finally realize these Cylons are ''different''? That they're trying to help?

Gaius's "last ''human'' solution" speech sounds so xenophobic I could've imagined it coming from the dear departed Gaeta. Something ''must'' be misleading because I can't see Head Six directing Gaius on any kind of anti-Cylon agenda. If we're just being purposefully mislead in such a ham-handed manner, it's cheap manipulation unworthy of BSG.[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 16:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
* OK, that's weird. Why is your datestamp 7 months from now? [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 01:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* * Good question. I've no idea --[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* Yes, totally . She does tell the gang specifically that she is still Ellen, too -- since from the Cavil conversation we know the plan for them was to download back with full memories of everything that happened. It's likely that the New Ellen we saw this episode was the writers trying to show that while she is cylon she is very much human as well (loves Saul, jealous of Six, furious that he would sleep with one of "their children" even though he couldn't have known), or that the memories/template of Old Ellen is still strongly with her and may continue to drive some of her reactions. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* MORE -- Re: Baltar, had to watch it again, but what he is saying is that while the fleet in on a path to be blended, the populace isn't fully ready to accept this fate just yet. That Baltar can put together a civilian militia to keep order where the marines aren't is the last choice Adama has before he finally turns to the Baseship for mustering a police force (the implied non-human solution). And at this point he's right, there's no way the fleet would accept Cylons acting as police. So it's not an anti-Cylon agenda at all, he's just trying to buy Adama some time. Bill's agonizing because up to this point he's seen Humans and Rebel Cylons as allies, but separate nations. The hope has been that Humans ultimately rebuild the Human race, but the direction is now clearly showing both sides need each other and that instead Humans (and Cylons) will be building a new Hybrid race. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 04:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== I Don't Agree ==

First of all, Baltar said what he said to Adama just to get the guns. He knew he'd only get them if he appealed to Adama's pro-human side, which he did. He probably meant none of it (Baltar, anit-Cylon? He gave one of the sixes a nuke!).

Secondly, love is far from logical, and Ellen (at least, is implied) is in love with Saul, hence she will not be logical, and cast him down. He's been unfaithful with her daughter, effectively; all logic goes out of the window.

* But what could Baltar have possibly said that could've motivated Adama to give weapons to ''civilians''? And mot just any civilians but ''brainwashed'' ones? And while I'll readily concede love is anything but logical, if I had to describe the "No Exit" Ellen with just one adjective, it would be "rational." But in this episode she's completely irrational. It's like those stupid romantic comedies where everyone must misbehave in exactly the wrong way at the wrong time in order to draw the wrong conclusion and perform the wrong action...all of which is tidied up in the third act. BSG is better than that, which is why I'm so disappointed in this episode.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 23:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

== Missing Scene(s) May Explain the Guns ==

I understand that there was at least one scene that was cut in which the problem of internal security on Galactica was discussed. (Don't have the citation handy.) The problem is that, due to loses incurred during the mutiny, the number of marines available for security duty is way below what is needed. One of the solutions discussed was to bring over centurions from the base ship to augment the security force, but that was deemed to be a bad thing (duh). So in that context, Baltar's appeal for guns to defend themselves and the other civilians might seem to Adama to be the lesser of two evils.

But boy, did you see the look of lust on Paula's face as she examined her new semi-auto. That girl's going "postal" one day soon, mark my words. [[User:Strotter|Strotter]] 03:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

* If this is indeed a missing scene then it starts to make a little sense. Still, I have a hard time believing Galactica's security forces were so decimated that Adama is willing to turn over weapons to untrained, unpredictable, untrusted civilians. Galactica has over a thousand personnel. Surely there are better options than giving guns to cultists. --[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Found ==

The one question I still can't figure out... is how the hell did Boomer find Galactica in a Raptor? If Boomer could find it so easily, couldn't Cavil?

Just thinking...
[[User:Ghostalker|Ghostalker]]
* Yeah, I agree this was too quickly skipped over, but (a) the Raptor is a colonial unit with compatible beacon/tracking equipment on board and (b) the fleet hasn't jumped yet and it still very close to Earth. So once Boomer told Ellen that the fleet was looking for Earth, Ellen would have started their search there (presumably) and found them easily enough. More to the point, while Cavil knows the Final Five extremely well, he's a child of the 12 Colonies' Centurions and honestly doesn't know where Earth is. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

* This one had me, too, until I figured out that Ellen would know where Earth was. Sharon would've programmed a jump destination somewhere safe so she could quickly jump away. Once there, Ellen could give Sharon the coordinates for Earth and they could jump there.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Can we unlock this page now? ==

Can we unlock this page? It's been two days since the episode was aired. -- [[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 01:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
:But it is unlocked. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 01:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
::It wasn't locked when I got to it, and I've removed the spoiler and locked tags from the page. Have at it. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

== Piano in the bar ==

Kara asks the bartender "When'd you get a piano" and doesn't get an answer, just a strange look, but there is a piano in the background. Is it possible the piano and its player are just a manifestation like Baltar's head-6? In "Someone to Watch Over Me" the piano player is supposed to help her find out who she is. She also has a vision of a little girl playing a piano in a ship bay. Is the piano player Daniel, or her father, or both? [[User:Carlodrum|Carlodrum]] 04:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

== How Tyrol ID'd Boomer ==

Just in my opinion, when he saw her, he wasn't looking for some 'tell' that showed she was Boomer. ...He knew when he saw her land that Raptor. Getting her to acknowledge him was just a confirmation.

Before the episode even aired, I envisioned a scene where Tyrol and maybe Kelly watched an approaching Raptor come in with furrowed brows, then when it landed, cursed and called for security.

Talk:Deadlock/Archive 1

2009-02-23T06:43:29Z

Viperetto13: /* How Tyrol ID'd Boomer */ new section

-- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC){{newsection link}}

==Title==
''Someone to Watch Over Me'' [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden]. I think this one has been confirmed elsewhere as well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

After the thundering pace of the past two episodes, I have to say this one left me feeling cheated and hollow. The Ellen Tigh of "No Exit" seemed logical, thoughtful, caring, compassionate...in short, someone who we would expect to do the right thing. She seemed like someone who understood the Big Picture. This one acts just like Ellen Tigh before she was poisoned: petty, vindictive, emotional, and (as Saul put it) vile. The entire situation of her being angry at Saul seemed forced and contrived and was quite a disappointment. I might've expected Ellen to be surprised at Saul/Caprica, but not this. After all, she knows Saul (a) thought she was dead, (b) originally had no idea he was a Cylon, and (c) had no idea Ellen was a Cylon. It's logically ridiculous to hold him accountable for the decisions he made when he had no knowledge of how things really were. The old Ellen (the one John/Cavil/One programmed to be vindictive) would've been like this, but that persona was wiped away by her resurrection. The "real" Ellen was presumably the more logical one we saw in "No Exit." Why the sudden shift in characterization? What a let down.

And what's with Bill Adama agonizing over the Cylon goop being put into Galactica? Granted it's not what he would like, but Adama has always shown himself to be a pragmatist. He knows he has no choice. He even admits it during his drunken binge with Tigh. The Adama we know from the past hasn't agonized over forced choices once they've been made. Again, why the sudden shift in character? It's jarring to the point of unbelievability.

And what's Adama up to giving Baltar guns? Has he lost his mind? Didn't we just have a bloody mutiny on Galactica over the whole idea of Cylon's integrating into the fleet? As I recall, Adama was on the pro-Cylon side -- again, because he's a pragmatist, not out of any love of the Cylons. Now he's acting like he fears the Cylons all over again, despite the fact his XO is one and Tyrol is once again in charge of the deck. The rebel Cylons basically saved Roslin's life. They are helping repair the Galactica. They've practically prostrated themselves at the mercy of the humans. At what point do our half-blind humans finally realize these Cylons are ''different''? That they're trying to help?

Gaius's "last ''human'' solution" speech sounds so xenophobic I could've imagined it coming from the dear departed Gaeta. Something ''must'' be misleading because I can't see Head Six directing Gaius on any kind of anti-Cylon agenda. If we're just being purposefully mislead in such a ham-handed manner, it's cheap manipulation unworthy of BSG.[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 16:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
* OK, that's weird. Why is your datestamp 7 months from now? [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 01:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* * Good question. I've no idea --[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* Yes, totally . She does tell the gang specifically that she is still Ellen, too -- since from the Cavil conversation we know the plan for them was to download back with full memories of everything that happened. It's likely that the New Ellen we saw this episode was the writers trying to show that while she is cylon she is very much human as well (loves Saul, jealous of Six, furious that he would sleep with one of "their children" even though he couldn't have known), or that the memories/template of Old Ellen is still strongly with her and may continue to drive some of her reactions. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
* MORE -- Re: Baltar, had to watch it again, but what he is saying is that while the fleet in on a path to be blended, the populace isn't fully ready to accept this fate just yet. That Baltar can put together a civilian militia to keep order where the marines aren't is the last choice Adama has before he finally turns to the Baseship for mustering a police force (the implied non-human solution). And at this point he's right, there's no way the fleet would accept Cylons acting as police. So it's not an anti-Cylon agenda at all, he's just trying to buy Adama some time. Bill's agonizing because up to this point he's seen Humans and Rebel Cylons as allies, but separate nations. The hope has been that Humans ultimately rebuild the Human race, but the direction is now clearly showing both sides need each other and that instead Humans (and Cylons) will be building a new Hybrid race. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 04:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== I Don't Agree ==

First of all, Baltar said what he said to Adama just to get the guns. He knew he'd only get them if he appealed to Adama's pro-human side, which he did. He probably meant none of it (Baltar, anit-Cylon? He gave one of the sixes a nuke!).

Secondly, love is far from logical, and Ellen (at least, is implied) is in love with Saul, hence she will not be logical, and cast him down. He's been unfaithful with her daughter, effectively; all logic goes out of the window.

* But what could Baltar have possibly said that could've motivated Adama to give weapons to ''civilians''? And mot just any civilians but ''brainwashed'' ones? And while I'll readily concede love is anything but logical, if I had to describe the "No Exit" Ellen with just one adjective, it would be "rational." But in this episode she's completely irrational. It's like those stupid romantic comedies where everyone must misbehave in exactly the wrong way at the wrong time in order to draw the wrong conclusion and perform the wrong action...all of which is tidied up in the third act. BSG is better than that, which is why I'm so disappointed in this episode.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 23:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

== Missing Scene(s) May Explain the Guns ==

I understand that there was at least one scene that was cut in which the problem of internal security on Galactica was discussed. (Don't have the citation handy.) The problem is that, due to loses incurred during the mutiny, the number of marines available for security duty is way below what is needed. One of the solutions discussed was to bring over centurions from the base ship to augment the security force, but that was deemed to be a bad thing (duh). So in that context, Baltar's appeal for guns to defend themselves and the other civilians might seem to Adama to be the lesser of two evils.

But boy, did you see the look of lust on Paula's face as she examined her new semi-auto. That girl's going "postal" one day soon, mark my words. [[User:Strotter|Strotter]] 03:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

* If this is indeed a missing scene then it starts to make a little sense. Still, I have a hard time believing Galactica's security forces were so decimated that Adama is willing to turn over weapons to untrained, unpredictable, untrusted civilians. Galactica has over a thousand personnel. Surely there are better options than giving guns to cultists. --[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Found ==

The one question I still can't figure out... is how the hell did Boomer find Galactica in a Raptor? If Boomer could find it so easily, couldn't Cavil?

Just thinking...
[[User:Ghostalker|Ghostalker]]
* Yeah, I agree this was too quickly skipped over, but (a) the Raptor is a colonial unit with compatible beacon/tracking equipment on board and (b) the fleet hasn't jumped yet and it still very close to Earth. So once Boomer told Ellen that the fleet was looking for Earth, Ellen would have started their search there (presumably) and found them easily enough. More to the point, while Cavil knows the Final Five extremely well, he's a child of the 12 Colonies' Centurions and honestly doesn't know where Earth is. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

* This one had me, too, until I figured out that Ellen would know where Earth was. Sharon would've programmed a jump destination somewhere safe so she could quickly jump away. Once there, Ellen could give Sharon the coordinates for Earth and they could jump there.--[[User:Prisoner881|Prisoner881]] 05:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Can we unlock this page now? ==

Can we unlock this page? It's been two days since the episode was aired. -- [[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 01:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
:But it is unlocked. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 01:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
::It wasn't locked when I got to it, and I've removed the spoiler and locked tags from the page. Have at it. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

== Piano in the bar ==

Kara asks the bartender "When'd you get a piano" and doesn't get an answer, just a strange look, but there is a piano in the background. Is it possible the piano and its player are just a manifestation like Baltar's head-6? In "Someone to Watch Over Me" the piano player is supposed to help her find out who she is. She also has a vision of a little girl playing a piano in a ship bay. Is the piano player Daniel, or her father, or both? [[User:Carlodrum|Carlodrum]] 04:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

== How Tyrol ID'd Boomer ==

Just in my opinion, when he saw her, he wasn't looking for some 'tell' that showed she was Boomer.

...He knew when he saw her land that Raptor.

Getting her to acknowledge him was just a confirmation.

The Son Also Rises

2007-03-17T07:05:59Z

Viperetto13: /* Notes */

{{Episode Data
| title= The Son Also Rises
| image= 3x18-TheSonAlsoRises-ApolloBaltarLampkin.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 18
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| production= 318
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-03-11
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| podcast = y
| population= 41399
| oldpopulation= 41400
| prev= [[Maelstrom]]
| next= [[Crossroads, Part I]]
| itunes= http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D219074621%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==
:''With [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial merely two weeks away, [[Lee Adama]] is tasked with protecting [[Romo Lampkin]], Baltar's second lawyer, which finds himself going up against [[William Adama|his own father]], who himself is appointed as one of the five judges in Baltar's trial.''

== Summary ==

=== Teaser ===

[[Image:Adama's b-day card.jpg|thumb|right|Adama happens upon an old, self-made birthday card from [[Kara Thrace]], while reviewing her jacket.]]
* [[William Adama]] reviews [[Kara Thrace]]'s service record file, which includes various disciplinary notices, commendations, and citations.
* Meanwhile, on ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Laura Roslin]] presides over a drawing of ship captains who will comprise of the five judges of [[Gaius Baltar]]'s tribunal. [[Tory Foster]] picks up a folded card from the bowl, handing it to Roslin. It reads: Captain [[Elias Meeker]], ''[[Gideon]]''.
* Adama happens upon more records, including a commendation for bravery regarding her actions in recovering the civilians from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]].
* Foster draws out one last name from the bowl. When Roslin opens it, she initially begins to read the card aloud, but stops herself as she reads the name, clearly shocked.
* As Adama continues to slowly run through the jacket, he happens across a self-made birthday card she made for him. The cover reads: "You were always like a father to me...". Upon opening the card, he sees a picture of Thrace, who is wearing his glasses and has a hand-drawn mushdache. Above the picture are the words: "See the resemblance?"; below: "Happy birthday, young man" signing it with "much love, Kara". This elicits a laugh from Adama, who begins to tear up and sniffle.
* On the flight deck, a grieving and inebriated [[Samuel Anders]] stands on top of a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]], who is tossing a coined-[[cubit]], calling "heads" correctly for the fourth time in a row. Watching him are [[Anthony Figurski]], [[Hamish McCall]] and [[Margaret Edmondson]].
* In the [[memorial hallway]], [[Lee Adama]] stands in front of the section containing [[Louanne Katraine|Kat's]] picture. He thumbs with a photo of Thrace, keeping it close to his belly, then pocketing it as he hears the sound of Racetrack's footsteps. Edmondson then gets his attention by calling Adama by his rank.
* Still standing above the cockpit of the Viper, Anders holds out the cubit, saying that his "girl is too lucky to check out". Adama and Edmondson approach; Adama joins Anders on top of the Viper and attempts to talk him down. Emotionally distraught, he initially sits down, then jumps up, saying he has somewhere to go, but he doesn't complete his words as he slips and falls from the Viper. Adama climbs down from the Viper as some of the spectators begin to cluster near the fallen Anders, who says "I think I fell".
* As Adama checks Anders over for injuries, Anders asks him: "She's still alive, right?" Adama replies in the negative, which Anders tearfully claims he knows.
* In [[CIC]], Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] tells Adama he's been selected as one of the five ship captains that form Baltar's tribunal.
* On the hangar deck, Racetrack complains about having to fly [[Alan Hughes|Baltar's lawyer]] back and forth from the ''[[Zephyr]]'', saying he whispers into her ear and takes his shoes off on board.
* Skulls wonders why Baltar is even given a trial while he's obviously guilty, to which Cally replies it's justice.
* An explosive charge detonates aboard the [[Raptor]]. Racetrack walks out unharmed, but Baltar's lawyer is dead.

===Act 1===
*A press conference on Baltar's fate on ''[[Colonial One]]'' asks questions about the trial, a lawyer replacement, and other matters. Roslin stands firm against any terrorist acts affecting the trial.
*In the [[Pilot ready rooms|pilot ready room]], the mood is also somber. Major Adama is making mistakes and distracted. A reconnaissance operation is planned.
*After a joke, Adama says "Starbuck" and not "Racetrack" after the [[Raptor]] pilot makes a joke to [[Sharon Agathon]] about checking under her seat, and an overwhelming awkwardness settles within the room. Adama dismisses the group hurriedly.
*Roslin interviews the new attorney, [[Romo Lampkin]] with Admiral Adama present. Lampkin abruptly introduces the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet leaders]] to his [[Lampkin's cat|cat]], who is in a foul mood.
*Adama asks his son to aid with attorney's affairs. When the younger Adama objects to being grounded as [[CAG]] and indicating that he's "okay", the admiral tells him that he knows that his son isn't okay because the admiral himself is also still in grief over Thrace's death.
*Lampkin is given his quarters and asks to see Baltar. Lampkin wants to choose a room that is unlikely to be wired for surveillance. He tells Major Adama that he was a student of his grandfather, [[Joseph Adama]].
*The scene shifts to see someone's hands preparing explosive charges.

===Act 2===
*Baltar, in a bulletproof vest, is escorted by [[marine]]s to his attorney in Major Adama's quarters. The major is present under client confidentiality.
*Baltar is agitated as he writes more quick notes for his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]]. He knows that the tribunal will use [[Caprica Six]] against him.
*When Lampkin asks to be taken to ''Colonial One'', Adama objects. When he insults Adama, the major reacts violently, his stress over the events of the last two weeks coming forth briefly.
*Adama manages to convince Captain [[Aaron Kelly]] to fly the Raptor with [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] and Lampkin aboard, despite the admiral's grounding order for the major.
*As the Raptor's door is almost closed, Lampkin's cat escapes through the hatchway, and the door is reopened while other deckhands scramble to chase the cat.
*As Chief Tyrol crawls under the Raptor to reach the cat, he discovers the bomb, and everyone madly scrambles away.
*Later, Admiral Adama is infuriated at his son for disobeying orders, noting how everyone is out of sorts since Thrace's death two weeks prior. The admiral orders his son to do his job, properly, for he will be on the other side of the courtroom as a tribunal member.

===Act 3===
*The bomb is dissected and analyzed. Deck crew and officers discuss the problem: One of them is a conspirator. [[Cally Tyrol]] states her opinion, and accuses the Cylons, and more indirectly Sharon Agathon, for the bombings and inciting the riots within the Fleet.
*Major Adama warns Lampkin to watch himself, but Lampkin is philosophical, realizing that someone will eventually get to him, no matter what.
*On ''Colonial One'', Roslin grants Lampkin permission to interview [[Caprica-Six]] in the usual interrogation room. [[Tory Foster]] apologizes to Apollo for the difficulty and delay in getting the files Lampkin requested shipped to him.
*As Lampkin interviews Six, she notes her love for him. Lampkin relates his experiences in love, which moves Six. On asking if Baltar asked about her, Lampkin removes his glasses and shows Baltar's pen, telling her that his sacrifice of his one limited freedom is an expression of his love.
*Lampkin tells her, that unlike Baltar, she won't get a trial.
*Later, [[Anthony Figurski]] delivers the papers Lampkin requested from ''[[Colonial One]]'', noting that Captain Kelly had inspected them. The [[marine]] escort is suspicious, and both they and Lampkin inspect the paper box to their satisfaction.
*As Lampkin enters his key code for opening his quarter's hatch, marine [[Cheadle]] notices a screw on the floor, and realizes that the key lock had been tampered with. He tackles Lampkin, pushing him to safety just as the hatchway explodes, taking the full force of the explosion.

===Act 4===
*Lampkin survives the bomb attack, but is in [[sickbay]]. Major Adama speaks with him and has brought a bag containing Lampkin's possessions.
*Lampkin states that he is a kleptomaniac, and master slight-of-hand thief. Major Adama begins to remove the items with Lampkin commenting on the signifigance of each: Roslin's glasses, a shoe from the prosecuting attorney, a button from the admiral's jacket. "I borrow things," he says. When the major asks what Lampkin took from him, he tells him that he found Thrace's picture, but didn't take it.
*Adama discovers a special object that could only come from an officer. He asks who Lampkin burgled to get this object.
*Major Adama interview Captain Kelly, who admits to be the bomber, warning that he would continue the attacks if left on duty.
*The admiral reinstates his son as [[CAG]], but the younger Adama wants to help Lampkin, to his father's repeated objections. Eventually, the admiral, furious with the major, orders that the major be removed from the board and re-instate [[Helo]] as temporary CAG.
*Thrace's picture makes it on the memorial board as she requested, next to [[Kat]]. Anders, on crutches and with his left leg in a cast, comes in. The two come to terms with Thrace's death and possibly mend a friendship.
*Baltar finds an envelope with his pen, and a note from his attorney.
*The note contains a poetic line, telling Baltar that there is no more powerful ally than a son who decides to step away from his father's shadow.

===Bonus Scene===

*The scene begins with Athena and Cally Tyrol in the hangar deck while the rest of the deck gang is away.
*Athena begins to ask Cally why she accused her of being the bomber, upon which Cally denies ever making a direct accusation.
*Athena responds that she didn't accuse or even indirectly imply that Cally is the bomber, even though Cally was the last deck hand to inspect the Raptor.
*Athena allows Cally to take her gun and hold it to her chest, while Athena states why she knows Cally, despite her intense hatred for the Cylons, wouldn't shoot her. It is because she knows Athena loves her husband, her daughter, and ''Galactica''. Cally, according to Athena, would never dare take a child's mother away.
*After a few tense moments, Athena grabs the gun, points it next to Cally's head and states in unambiguous terms that if Cally is discovered to be the bomber, Athena will kill Cally herself.

== Questions ==
* Is Lampkin's statement to Roslin and Adama that he is seeking the fame (or infamy) of being Baltar's lawyer true, or is there an ulterior motive?

* Will Captain Kelly be punished and if yes, how?

* Besides the attacks caused by Kelly, have there been any other incidents of violence on the scale that Zarek warned Roslin about?

* Will the death of Thrace bring Lee Adama and Sam Anders closer as friends in the future?

* Would the bomb on the Raptor have gone off if Tyrol hadn't discovered it? Is Kelly telling the truth that he would not have triggered it with Lee Adama inside?

* Is Cally's hatred of the Cylons truly towards all Cylons or is she afraid of Athena because of her connection to Tyrol's former lover, Boomer?

* Why does Lampkin wear sunglasses in most of his encounters with people?

* What caused the rift between William Adama and his own father?

* Given Karl Agathon's temporary promotion to CAG, does he have previous flight experience as a Viper pilot?

* Given the reappearance of [[Playa Palacios]] in this episode, what of her other fellow "[[The Colonial Gang]]" correspondents, [[James McManus]] and [[Sekou Hamilton]], or the program itself?

== Analysis ==
* A noticeable pattern between the two Adamas can be seen whenever both are going through a stressful or traumatic situation. Whereas the [[William Adama|elder Adama]] has the experience and the desire to focus on the job that he has to do, the [[Lee Adama|younger Adama]] consistently displays an inability to cope and process his emotions. This difference between the two has often led to sharp divisions, causing another tear in their damaged relationship:
** In the [[Miniseries]], Bill Adama is trying to get on with his life after the loss of his son Zak, but Lee is still full of rage over the incident and quite unambiguously holds his father responsible for what happened.
** When the two Adamas do not agree on the same method of coping with the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier'' in "[[33]]". This eventually leads to Lee Adama becoming [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]]'s military adviser and eventual co-conspirator during the hunt of Arrow of Apollo.
** During the planning for the [[Battle of New Caprica]], the two Adamas butt heads again over strategy and whether it is worth the risk of losing the last remnants of humanity that were with [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] and [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] at the time.

* Lee Adama has consistently shown a tendency to prove that he is not like his father, even though both are described as stubborn by [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] and [[Carolanne Adama]]. This tendency is evident in the last argument between the two when Apollo accuses Adama of not wanting him to become like his grandfather.

* When Lee Adama mistakenly calls [[Racetrack]] "Starbuck", his mental state is reminiscent of "[[Black Market]]" when he constantly found himself recollecting events on Caprica before the genocide.

* William Adama's failure to listen to Carolanne Adama's pleas and advice to tell his son how proud he is of him comes back with a vengeance when Apollo repeatedly asks his father if he is giving him an order, the implication being that Apollo wanted to know if his father is treating him as a son or as a soldier. Adama's refusal to ask Apollo to obey his orders as his son will probably lead to further dissension between the two.

* [[Romo Lampkin]], though he appears to be a lawyer with little courtroom experience, has demonstrated a deep understanding of the human psyche. He takes Roslin's glasses to prevent her from being taken seriously during the trial. His other feats such as raising doubt and bringing out [[Caprica-Six]]'s feelings for [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]], and his slow but sure persuasion of Lee Adama into helping with Baltar's case, give hints to a man who obviously has immense experience with the art of manipulation.

* Lee Adama honors [[Kara Thrace|Thrace]]'s request of having her photo posted next to [[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]'s. His inability to let go of the photo may represent a possible marriage conflict with Dualla if he is unable to truly move on.

* [[Cally Tyrol]] correctly states that the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] wouldn't need to even fire one shot because they may find the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] had torn itself apart because of humanity's tendency towards self-destruction. However, it is also clear that she has not realized that she and the many workers are just as much a part of the problems when they essentially risked the existence of the Fleet with their work strikes, refusal to refine [[tylium]], and disobedience toward military orders ([[Dirty Hands]]). The summary of all those acts cannot be attributed to Cylon intervention as Cally Tyrol is implying that Athena is responsible for the bombings.

* Two weeks have passed since the events of "[[Maelstrom]]". During this time, Adama apparently has been mulling over his memories of Starbuck, including a review of her military record. The audience sees, amongst the items in the folder, a hand-made birthday card which Thrace gave Adama for his birthday once. It jokingly shows Thrace with a color pen mustache and glasses, and asks if Adama can see the resemblance. This moment reinforces the theme that Starbuck was very much a daughter to Adama, even though he stated otherwise in "[[Torn]]". It is very clear that he still sees Thrace as a daughter to him.

* After the events of "[[The Woman King]]", Helo has been reinstated amongst the pilots of ''Galactica'', as the original purpose of assigning him to [[Dogsville]] was in response to his objections and sabotage of the Cylon biological weapon. Starting with "[[Dirty Hands]]", Helo is present at briefings in the ready room, and by the implications of this episode, he appears to be one of the four squadron leaders. Thus, once Apollo's flight status is revoked it is only natural for Adama to promote Helo to the CAG position because of seniority and trust.

* It is unclear whether Helo has experience with a Viper, but numerous Viper pilots have been flying Raptors so far. Whether this goes both ways it yet to be seen, but with Helo's position as head of a squadron and now CAG, it appears that he has at least enough operational and tactical knowledge to do the necessary organizational and administrative duties. His previous experience as Galactica's [[XO]] may also have been a factor in his appointment.

* Though Kelly tells Apollo that he would have never detonated the bomb with him inside, the fact that the bomb had been planted and that Kelly couldn't anticipate Apollo's impromptu decision to join Lampkin, makes it clear that Kelly's original intention was to kill Lampkin ''and'' Athena. Whether this is an indirect statement on Kelly's view on Athena's Cylon heritage or his desire to raise the stakes by not only killing Baltar's lawyer, but sacrifice a member of the crew, is unclear.

* This is the first episode since the end of Season 2 that any member of the "[[The Colonial Gang]]", specifically [[Playa Palacios]] has been seen in the series. This episode and the nature of the remaining episodes may indicate a return to the President-news press relationship that the audience has seen in the past.

== Notes ==
*This episode's title is a pun on the title of the 1926 [[w:Ernest Hemingway|Ernest Hemingway]] novel "[[w:The Sun Also Rises|The Sun Also Rises]]".
*Starting with this episode, [[Katee Sackhoff]]'s name is no longer listed in the opening credits.
*The population count at the start of this episode is 41,399, accounting for [[Kara Thrace]]'s death in "[[Maelstrom]]". At least one birth must have occurred to set off [[Alan Hughes]]'s death in the teaser. Assuming that marine [[Cheadle]] died in the explosion that almost kills Lampkin, the population count would be 41,398, a number that does not take into account any births or other deaths that occurred off-screen.
*[[Karl Agathon]] is temporarily assigned as [[CAG]], despite not having any previously known experience as a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] pilot. This might have been done for production reasons. After Apollo, Helo is the highest-ranking established pilot left. In-universe [[Marcia Case]] or [[Ricky Richardson]] are probably better qualified for the position. [[Hotdog]], who has at least as much experience as former CAG [[Kat]], is also passed over.
*The model ship which [[William Adama|Adama]] destroyed in [[Maelstrom|the previous episode]] is still sitting on a shelf in his quarters.
*[[Romo Lampkin]] exhibits symptoms of [[w:Kleptomania|kleptomania]]. Over the course of the episode he steals many objects Lampkin views as important to their owner from a psychological perspective, and thus provides him with knowledge of a person. Among the objects stolen:
** Gaius Baltar's worn fountain pen
** Laura Roslin's glasses
** Admiral Adama's uniform button, which Adama first searches for when Lampkin talks to [[Caprica-Six]]
** Ms. [[Cassidy]]'s sandal
** [[Aaron Kelly]]'s magnetic component, used in his bomb-making
* The door code to Romo Lampkin's temporary quarters on ''Galactica'' is 1234.
* [[Samuel Anders|Sam Anders]]' flipping a coin and continually coming up with heads is reminiscent of the early moments of Tom Stoppard's play ''Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead'', in which Rosencrantz has the same result on a coin flip over a dozen times. This leads Guildenstern to comment "Consider - One: Probability is a factor which operates within natural forces. Two: Probability is not operating as a factor. Three: We are now held within un-, sub-, or supernatural forces." The moral is that two minor characters within a play (namely, ''Hamlet'') have no control over their fate, and are condemned to carry out their role in the story regardless of their desperate attempts to change events.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''[[Romo Lampkin]] replies to [[William Adama]]'s question regarding his qualifications for defending [[Gaius Baltar]]:''
: '''Lampkin:''' I was born for this. That, and the fact I have a pulse.

* ''Lampkin's cat jumps on [[Laura Roslin]]'s desk:''
: '''Lampkin:''' Lance belonged to my wife. Don't worry, he doesn't scratch or bite like she did. If it's any comfort, I despise him as much as you do, having to hire me. So, there it is. Shall we get started?

* ''Admiral Adama rips [[Lee Adama]] another one:''
: '''William Adama:''' What the hell were you doing out there? I gave you an order. To do a job.
: '''Lee Adama:''' Excuse me, I was ''doing my job''.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah, being led around by the nose! This [[Romo Lampkin|bastard]] yanks your chain and you jump.
: '''Lee:''' He wanted files from ''[[Colonial One]]''–
: '''Bill:''' It was the middle of the night.
: '''Lee:''' Well, you assigned me to security.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah. And there was a bomb on [[Raptor|that ship]]. And you ''missed it''. Security? I gave you ''explicit orders''.
: '''Lee:''' [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] was piloting.
: '''Bill:''' You coulda died. Plain and simple. ''You're a soldier. Live like one. Start acting like one!''
: '''Lee:''' [[Kara Thrace|She]]'s [[Maelstrom|been gone]] two weeks. I didn't realize the clock was running.
: '''Bill:''' (softly) Stop.
: '''Lee:''' No, I'm sorry. Maybe because we're just built differently.
: '''Bill:''' You stop. Don't you dare quantify my loss.
: '''Lee:''' You have no idea. ''You have no frakking idea.''
: '''Bill:''' What, you think yours is deeper?
: '''Lee:''' Well–
: '''Bill:''' Yours is greater? (Lee doesn't respond) ''In two weeks, there's going to be a trial. And I'm going to do what I was chosen to do, and so are you! You build a frakking nest around this man and you '''protect his ass'''!''

* ''[[Aaron Kelly]] opines on shuttling [[Gaius Baltar]]'s [[Romo Lampkin|lawyer]]:''
: '''Kelly:''' Every day I wave jocks out there. A lot of them are my friends. People I care for and love. It's hard enough watching them die in battle, but rickshawing Baltar's frakking attorney around? Frak that.

* ''[[Cally Tyrol]] apparently learns from her [[Dirty Hands|mistakes]]:''
: '''Tyrol:''' I believe that the Cylons want us to destroy ourselves and this is how they're doing it. By planting bombs, making us suspicious of each other. You know what's funny? By the time the Cylons catch up with us, they won't even have to attack. They'll just clean up the mess we made.

* ''Baltar muses over adding to his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]], before discovering his pen has gone missing:''
: '''Baltar:''' The nature of modern life is obsession.

* ''Lee Adama discovers Lampkin's kleptomania:''
: '''Adama:''' So what did you take from me?
: '''Lampkin:''' I was thinkin' the photograph that you carry. [[Kara Thrace|The girl. The pilot.]] The one you carry [in your pocket]. But... you've had enough stolen from you already.

* ''Lee Adama confronts Kelly about the bomb:''
: '''Kelly:''' I would have never let [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] airborne with you on the Raptor. I would have stopped it. You know that.
: '''Adama:''' Yeah, I know that.
: '''Kelly:''' You better lock me up. And I don't want any trial. I won't stop. I will keep trying. I'll keep at it, I will. I did my job, sir. And I have done my job for two years. Every day I've sent people out to fight. I cleared them all to die. So many people... I just got tired of living with that. You ask that man, if you had to choose between giving up his life for a Cylon or human, what do you think he'd say? I had to do somethin'.

* ''Baltar reads a note from Lampkin, after retrieving his pen from the envelope:''
: '''Lampkin:''' There's no greater ally, no force more powerful, no enemy more resolved than [[Lee Adama|the son]] who chooses to step from [[William Adama|his father's shadow]].

== Official Statements ==

Information from the podcast:
* Ron Moore admits that it's a stretch to have both Adamas involved intimately in the trial and even on opposite sides. But the writers decided to go for increased drama, since the trial would otherwise only be carried by guest stars with the show's main characters sidelined. Moore also believes that Admiral Adama is capable to make fair and rational decisions.
* Romo Lampkin's cat was supposed to be run out of the Raptor, but when shooting the cat only strolled. Since it's difficult to teach cats what to do, the film was sped up instead.
* That Lampkin always wears sunglasses was a decision made by the writer that was ultimately supported, despite concern on the part of the actor and the director.

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally Tyrol]]
* [[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Capt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Kandyse McClure]] as Lt. [[Anastasia Dualla]]
* [[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
* [[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as Lt. [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Mark Sheppard]] as [[Romo Lampkin]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Ty Olsson]] as Cpt. [[Aaron Kelly]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Costanza]]
* [[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
* [[Tyler McClendon]] as [[Alan Hughes]]
* [[Stephen Holmes]] as Reporter #1
* [[Christina Schild]] as [[Playa Palacios]]
* [[Alison Matthews]] as [[Karen Fallbrook|Fallbrook]]
* [[Chris Boyd]] as Marine [[Cheadle]]
* [[Colin Corringan]] as Marine [[Nowart]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Leoben Conoy (New Caprica copy)/Archive 1

2006-12-28T04:26:49Z

Viperetto13: /* Note on Cylon Numbers */

== Note on Cylon Numbers ==

I don't know what other people think, but now that four of the twelve Cylon model numbers are accounted for, can we put a note on Conoy saying something to the effect of, "Leoben Conoy is either Number 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, or 10? I couldn't figure out how to place it.--[[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 18:34, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:There's no way to word it without that being clumsy. We shouldn't make a note of it until we know for certain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:40, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't bother doing anything saying "well, it's one of these 8 numbers" is just too complicated.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:11, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I'm betting on Leoben being number 4. Anyone else want to venture a guess (just for fun)? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I don't know, he could be number 2--[[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 20:21, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:My bets are on Leoben 7, Simon 4, Cavil 2. Lower numbers seem more administrative in bearing, more practical than intuitive, and their simulation of humanity more based on cynical experience than gut (not to mention the actors are older - sorry Lucy). Leoben seems more of an intuitive, younger (for a male cylon), rogue individual. More like Sharon 8 than Doral 5, Cavil or D'Anna 3.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:24, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Hi. I feel I should point out that both the DVD cover and an entry in RDM's Blog at Scifi.com refer to this Cylon as 'Leobon', not 'Leoben'.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 4 March (EST)

:The official site is notriously bad on exact spelling; IMDB lists it with an e.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:41, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Spelling? ==
I don't mean to be dense here, but just why is Leoben's surname consistently spelled "Conoy" when Roslin distinctly pronounces it as "Conroy" in [[Flesh and Bone]]? I've poked around a bit and this is the only instance that I can find of the name actually being spoken in the series. Did Roslin mispronounce it or is this a misspelling that has gotten way out of hand? Just wondering about that for a while now...--[[User:grugnir|Grugnir]]

:Apparently this is a topic of [http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=4282 debate]. Can anybody listen to the episode in question to confirm definitively on the "Conoy" vs. "Conroy"? Information from the episode would definitely trump the imdb credits. (But credits from the show itself would be valuable...) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 18 April 2006 (CDT)

::Well, we always new it as Conoy for over a year after the mini (somehow) before Roslin open the controversy by saying "Conroy", but keep in mind she isn't exactly reliable since it was the first time she'd heard the name, at least in a long time. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18 April 2006

:I'll work on some spectrograms ASAP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:18, 18 April 2006 (CDT)

::If you go to the skiffy discussion of it, someone found the proof we had back when the mini aired, the credits:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/clivex/mini_credits_01.jpg

Credit: Clivex

--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:50 18 April 2006

==Siblings==
Should we mention that all humanoid Cylons are technically siblings, as has been mentioned on screen is thus canon?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:59, 17 March 2006 (EST)

:It would be nice I think. After all, the Cavil's referred to each other as "Brother", and not because of G-Cavil's role as a priest. Six also called Sharon "little sister". This in itself supports not only what they call one another but also possibly supporting the age theory. I just agree that it would be good to add. --[[Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17 March 2006

::It's an "attitude" but not really true; no it should not be included. I mean, Sharon actually said she "thought of" ''Starbuck'' as her "big sister". It should not be put into a character template like that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:47, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:Absolutely not. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:48, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::Don't they say "We are gods childeren." at one point? I have to go back to find the excat wording and when it's said, but I am pretty sure Six (In Guais's Head) says something like this at one point when Eight and the good doctor are together. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::Shane, it doesn't matter. The term "siblings" does not apply to Cylons in the conventionally understood sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:18, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Mine was just a comment.. Just a comment. But if you want my option.. [[Wikipedia:Sibbling]] defines it as 

::::'''A family is a domestic group of people (or a number of domestic groups), typically affiliated by birth or marriage, or by comparable legal relationships — including domestic partnership, adoption, surname and (in some cases) ownership (as occurred in the Roman Empire).'''

::::'''Although many people (including social scientists) have understood familial relationships in terms of "blood", many anthropologists have argued that one must understand the notion of "blood" metaphorically, and that many societies understand 'family' through other concepts rather than through "blood."''' 

::::Blood or in our case is Synthic Pathways. They are all the same. They seems to have a common bond in which they were formed. They were rasied together, they were "[[Downloaded]]" together, they even have could be considered a [[Wikipedia:Clan]] which falls under Family. As long as one has an understanding of where they came from, in this case God, to them, they have a system of Heiarchy. Even stated right here in [[Cylon_agent]] does it say, "''Cylon agents can be programmed to believe that they are truly human. These are known as "sleeper" agents. Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality "on-hold". The first copy of Sharon Valerii, known by her callsign of "Boomer" on battlestar Galactica, had little awareness of her true nature until her arrest for the attempted assassination of William Adama (Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II). This sleeper agent conducted or aided in sabotage operations within the Fleet ("Water", "Litmus"). Most agent copies, particularly Numbers Five and Six, imitate human personalities, but are fully aware of their true nature.''". This gives me proof that we do beleive that they are somewhat connected and they do feel like Siblings. If this is cause to go against this, we should change that page to say, "They are not connected to one another. No Cylons ever hangs out with another due to the fact they are not related." Not to mention that Cavil says "Hello Brother" as he enters the cell. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:32, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Shane just let it '''go''', it's not supported. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::By two people out of a little over 1,000 people on the Wiki? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::The most it deserves is the (possible) note that they appear to think of eachother as siblings. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::I put that note in the Cylon History article. I thought it might be nice to add them as Siblings, but if the majority is against it I don't mind. Just an idea.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:14, 20 March 2006 (EST)
::::::::: My count from this is... --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:40, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::::It's really not that important.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:48, 20 March 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::Although it can provide a useful guideline, this wiki is not run on a majority rules basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:19, 28 March 2006 (CST)

To chime in... I believe the whole "brother" or "sister" thing is analogous with groups of friends calling each other "brother" or "sister". They're not related by bloodlines, but rather by friendship. Also, the whole "brother" and "sister" terminology has more religious over tones, given the Cylon's creation of a monotheistic religion. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:03, 28 March 2006 (CST)

== Straw Vote ==
I motion to kill the vote, or at least archive it, as it is kind of an eyesore and consensus has likely long since been imposed on the configuration of the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:30, 18 April 2006 (CDT) 
'''Support'''
# [[User:Shane|Shane]]
# [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]
# Minor - [[User:Durandal|Durandal]]
#Minor- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]
'''Not Support'''
# [[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]]
# [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]]
# [[User:Mrxerox|Mrxerox]]
# [[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) (This is kind of silly, no?)
# [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] (yep)
'''Neutral'''

==Merge "Gemenon Traveller Copy" and "New Caprica Copy"==
I think it's pretty clear, and more than implied with several lines on screen, that the Leoben who captures Kara in New Caprica is the same one whom she interrogated before. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:37, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
:I want to agree, but didn't the Leoben in "Flesh and Bone" explicitly acknowledge that he was out of download range?
::Thrace: …I think that you're afraid. You're afraid that we're a long way from home. What if you don't transfer all the way back? What if, when you die here, you really die? It's your chance to find out if you're really god or just a bunch of circuits with a bad haircut.
::Conoy: I'm not afraid of dying.
:Later:
::Conoy: The warhead doesn't exist. I made it up. The lieutenant was right; I was too far out. I didn't wanna die, so when I got caught I made up a story to buy some time.
:Of course, and I must resist the urge to slip into outright fanwankery, it's possible that this Leoben simply ''didn't know'' that a Resurrection Ship had been dispatched the follow the fleet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:19, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
::My favorite theory is that, like he usually is, he is just BSing them. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:26, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I mean, he did also say Adama was a Cylon....The fact that NC Leoben says "To know the face of God is to know madness" in a way that seemed to point him out as the GT copy. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:29, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
::::OK, I think we can say that you can't take anything that Leoben Conoy says as truth. He's says whatever he says simply to play with your mind. But the fact is that it was the Gemenon Traveller Copy, not the Ragnar Anchorage Copy or any other copy that was connected to Starbuck. It's a matter of making sense. Why would any other copy of Leoben be chasing after Starbuck? 1/12 of the Cylon race doesn't have it out specifically for Starbuck, just the 1 nut.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::Apparently, they ''all'' have it out for Starbuck, as we learned in "The Farm":
::::::Caprica-Valerii: They know who you are, Kara. You're special. Leoben told you that. You have a destiny.
:::::In the end, even though we might suspect it, I don't think we can safely assume that New Caprica-Conoy and Gemenon Traveller-Conoy are the same person. He never explicitly mentioned having memories of their previous encounter, and the Cylons appear to be fascinated with Kara for reasons entirely apart from Conoy, who didn't even appear in "The Farm". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:There will never be much certainty, since this grey area leads to better plotlines. In my opinion it is clear that they are the same. Which leads me to believe that there has been interrmittent communication with the Cylon fleet: Cylon Consciousness Communications Protocol (Connection oriented or connectionless??). Anyways the new Cylon fleet was recently shown to have another resurrection ship. [[User:Luis F. Gonzalez|Luis F. Gonzalez]] 16:14, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
::Hehe, I'd wonder what might happen if Leoben accidentally leaves hi "love memories" of Kara in the general database for all Leobens to download and then all of them have a thing for Kara. It would be....creepy, yet interesting. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:37, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

==Main Image==
Hey, I've been thinking about Leoben's main image, and I last updated it with a promo pic from "TEOJ", but we recently got one of thim as well from "Rapture", and I think they're both quite good, so I wanted to know which might be generally preferred....

<gallery>
Image:Le0ben.jpg|Picture 1
Image:Leoben2.jpg|Picture 2
</gallery>

What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:16, 24 December 2006 (CST)
:I'd go with #2. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:21, 24 December 2006 (CST)
::I don't know, I'd go with either, #1 is more of a head-on (no pun intended) view which I think is better for the main image of an article. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:02, 24 December 2006 (CST)
:::I dunno, I too was leaning towards #2...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:47, 24 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:Leoben Conoy (New Caprica copy)/Archive 1

2006-12-28T04:24:00Z

Viperetto13: /* Note on Cylon Numbers */

== Note on Cylon Numbers ==

I don't know what other people think, but now that four of the twelve Cylon model numbers are accounted for, can we put a note on Conoy saying something to the effect of, "Leoben Conoy is either Number 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, or 10? I couldn't figure out how to place it.--[[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 18:34, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:There's no way to word it without that being clumsy. We shouldn't make a note of it until we know for certain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:40, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't bother doing anything saying "well, it's one of these 8 numbers" is just too complicated.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:11, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I'm betting on Leoben being number 4. Anyone else want to venture a guess (just for fun)? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I don't know, he could be number 2--[[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 20:21, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:My bets are on Leoben 7, Simon 4, Cavil 2. Lower numbers seem older, more administrative, and their simulation of humanity more based on practicality than intuition. Leoben seems more of an intuitive, younger (for a male cylon), rogue individual. More like Sharon 8 than Doral 5, Cavil or D'Anna 3.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:24, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Hi. I feel I should point out that both the DVD cover and an entry in RDM's Blog at Scifi.com refer to this Cylon as 'Leobon', not 'Leoben'.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 4 March (EST)

:The official site is notriously bad on exact spelling; IMDB lists it with an e.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:41, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Spelling? ==
I don't mean to be dense here, but just why is Leoben's surname consistently spelled "Conoy" when Roslin distinctly pronounces it as "Conroy" in [[Flesh and Bone]]? I've poked around a bit and this is the only instance that I can find of the name actually being spoken in the series. Did Roslin mispronounce it or is this a misspelling that has gotten way out of hand? Just wondering about that for a while now...--[[User:grugnir|Grugnir]]

:Apparently this is a topic of [http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=4282 debate]. Can anybody listen to the episode in question to confirm definitively on the "Conoy" vs. "Conroy"? Information from the episode would definitely trump the imdb credits. (But credits from the show itself would be valuable...) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 18 April 2006 (CDT)

::Well, we always new it as Conoy for over a year after the mini (somehow) before Roslin open the controversy by saying "Conroy", but keep in mind she isn't exactly reliable since it was the first time she'd heard the name, at least in a long time. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18 April 2006

:I'll work on some spectrograms ASAP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:18, 18 April 2006 (CDT)

::If you go to the skiffy discussion of it, someone found the proof we had back when the mini aired, the credits:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/clivex/mini_credits_01.jpg

Credit: Clivex

--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:50 18 April 2006

==Siblings==
Should we mention that all humanoid Cylons are technically siblings, as has been mentioned on screen is thus canon?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:59, 17 March 2006 (EST)

:It would be nice I think. After all, the Cavil's referred to each other as "Brother", and not because of G-Cavil's role as a priest. Six also called Sharon "little sister". This in itself supports not only what they call one another but also possibly supporting the age theory. I just agree that it would be good to add. --[[Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17 March 2006

::It's an "attitude" but not really true; no it should not be included. I mean, Sharon actually said she "thought of" ''Starbuck'' as her "big sister". It should not be put into a character template like that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:47, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:Absolutely not. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:48, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::Don't they say "We are gods childeren." at one point? I have to go back to find the excat wording and when it's said, but I am pretty sure Six (In Guais's Head) says something like this at one point when Eight and the good doctor are together. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::Shane, it doesn't matter. The term "siblings" does not apply to Cylons in the conventionally understood sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:18, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Mine was just a comment.. Just a comment. But if you want my option.. [[Wikipedia:Sibbling]] defines it as 

::::'''A family is a domestic group of people (or a number of domestic groups), typically affiliated by birth or marriage, or by comparable legal relationships — including domestic partnership, adoption, surname and (in some cases) ownership (as occurred in the Roman Empire).'''

::::'''Although many people (including social scientists) have understood familial relationships in terms of "blood", many anthropologists have argued that one must understand the notion of "blood" metaphorically, and that many societies understand 'family' through other concepts rather than through "blood."''' 

::::Blood or in our case is Synthic Pathways. They are all the same. They seems to have a common bond in which they were formed. They were rasied together, they were "[[Downloaded]]" together, they even have could be considered a [[Wikipedia:Clan]] which falls under Family. As long as one has an understanding of where they came from, in this case God, to them, they have a system of Heiarchy. Even stated right here in [[Cylon_agent]] does it say, "''Cylon agents can be programmed to believe that they are truly human. These are known as "sleeper" agents. Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality "on-hold". The first copy of Sharon Valerii, known by her callsign of "Boomer" on battlestar Galactica, had little awareness of her true nature until her arrest for the attempted assassination of William Adama (Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II). This sleeper agent conducted or aided in sabotage operations within the Fleet ("Water", "Litmus"). Most agent copies, particularly Numbers Five and Six, imitate human personalities, but are fully aware of their true nature.''". This gives me proof that we do beleive that they are somewhat connected and they do feel like Siblings. If this is cause to go against this, we should change that page to say, "They are not connected to one another. No Cylons ever hangs out with another due to the fact they are not related." Not to mention that Cavil says "Hello Brother" as he enters the cell. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:32, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Shane just let it '''go''', it's not supported. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::By two people out of a little over 1,000 people on the Wiki? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::The most it deserves is the (possible) note that they appear to think of eachother as siblings. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::I put that note in the Cylon History article. I thought it might be nice to add them as Siblings, but if the majority is against it I don't mind. Just an idea.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:14, 20 March 2006 (EST)
::::::::: My count from this is... --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:40, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::::It's really not that important.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:48, 20 March 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::Although it can provide a useful guideline, this wiki is not run on a majority rules basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:19, 28 March 2006 (CST)

To chime in... I believe the whole "brother" or "sister" thing is analogous with groups of friends calling each other "brother" or "sister". They're not related by bloodlines, but rather by friendship. Also, the whole "brother" and "sister" terminology has more religious over tones, given the Cylon's creation of a monotheistic religion. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:03, 28 March 2006 (CST)

== Straw Vote ==
I motion to kill the vote, or at least archive it, as it is kind of an eyesore and consensus has likely long since been imposed on the configuration of the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:30, 18 April 2006 (CDT) 
'''Support'''
# [[User:Shane|Shane]]
# [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]
# Minor - [[User:Durandal|Durandal]]
#Minor- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]
'''Not Support'''
# [[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]]
# [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]]
# [[User:Mrxerox|Mrxerox]]
# [[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) (This is kind of silly, no?)
# [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] (yep)
'''Neutral'''

==Merge "Gemenon Traveller Copy" and "New Caprica Copy"==
I think it's pretty clear, and more than implied with several lines on screen, that the Leoben who captures Kara in New Caprica is the same one whom she interrogated before. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:37, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
:I want to agree, but didn't the Leoben in "Flesh and Bone" explicitly acknowledge that he was out of download range?
::Thrace: …I think that you're afraid. You're afraid that we're a long way from home. What if you don't transfer all the way back? What if, when you die here, you really die? It's your chance to find out if you're really god or just a bunch of circuits with a bad haircut.
::Conoy: I'm not afraid of dying.
:Later:
::Conoy: The warhead doesn't exist. I made it up. The lieutenant was right; I was too far out. I didn't wanna die, so when I got caught I made up a story to buy some time.
:Of course, and I must resist the urge to slip into outright fanwankery, it's possible that this Leoben simply ''didn't know'' that a Resurrection Ship had been dispatched the follow the fleet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:19, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
::My favorite theory is that, like he usually is, he is just BSing them. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:26, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I mean, he did also say Adama was a Cylon....The fact that NC Leoben says "To know the face of God is to know madness" in a way that seemed to point him out as the GT copy. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:29, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
::::OK, I think we can say that you can't take anything that Leoben Conoy says as truth. He's says whatever he says simply to play with your mind. But the fact is that it was the Gemenon Traveller Copy, not the Ragnar Anchorage Copy or any other copy that was connected to Starbuck. It's a matter of making sense. Why would any other copy of Leoben be chasing after Starbuck? 1/12 of the Cylon race doesn't have it out specifically for Starbuck, just the 1 nut.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::Apparently, they ''all'' have it out for Starbuck, as we learned in "The Farm":
::::::Caprica-Valerii: They know who you are, Kara. You're special. Leoben told you that. You have a destiny.
:::::In the end, even though we might suspect it, I don't think we can safely assume that New Caprica-Conoy and Gemenon Traveller-Conoy are the same person. He never explicitly mentioned having memories of their previous encounter, and the Cylons appear to be fascinated with Kara for reasons entirely apart from Conoy, who didn't even appear in "The Farm". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:There will never be much certainty, since this grey area leads to better plotlines. In my opinion it is clear that they are the same. Which leads me to believe that there has been interrmittent communication with the Cylon fleet: Cylon Consciousness Communications Protocol (Connection oriented or connectionless??). Anyways the new Cylon fleet was recently shown to have another resurrection ship. [[User:Luis F. Gonzalez|Luis F. Gonzalez]] 16:14, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
::Hehe, I'd wonder what might happen if Leoben accidentally leaves hi "love memories" of Kara in the general database for all Leobens to download and then all of them have a thing for Kara. It would be....creepy, yet interesting. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:37, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

==Main Image==
Hey, I've been thinking about Leoben's main image, and I last updated it with a promo pic from "TEOJ", but we recently got one of thim as well from "Rapture", and I think they're both quite good, so I wanted to know which might be generally preferred....

<gallery>
Image:Le0ben.jpg|Picture 1
Image:Leoben2.jpg|Picture 2
</gallery>

What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:16, 24 December 2006 (CST)
:I'd go with #2. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:21, 24 December 2006 (CST)
::I don't know, I'd go with either, #1 is more of a head-on (no pun intended) view which I think is better for the main image of an article. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:02, 24 December 2006 (CST)
:::I dunno, I too was leaning towards #2...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:47, 24 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-26T04:58:48Z

Viperetto13: /* Human Nicknames */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lucifer/Archive 1

2006-12-24T07:26:07Z

Viperetto13:

Given Six's reference to herself as "An Angel of God" and reference to Sharon Agathon as a "minor demon" in interpretation of her role assisting the Colonials, could the yet-unseen Model One humaniform cylon be anaogou to TOS-Lucifer. He is first among the "Angels" of the Cylon God, but also appears to be (unless Cavil, Leoben or Simon are "One") among the remaining Five, who appear to be on the outs with cylon culture (ala Rebel Angels) . --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 01:26, 24 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-23T08:16:16Z

Viperetto13: /* D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)