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The Son Also Rises

2007-03-16T15:17:44Z

UncleMikey: /* Notes */

{{Episode Data
| title= The Son Also Rises
| image= 3x18-TheSonAlsoRises-ApolloBaltarLampkin.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 18
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| production= 318
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-03-11
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41399
| oldpopulation= 41400
| prev= [[Maelstrom]]
| next= [[Crossroads, Part I]]
| itunes= http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D219074621%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==
:''With [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial merely two weeks away, [[Lee Adama]] is tasked with protecting [[Romo Lampkin]], Baltar's second lawyer, which finds himself going up against [[William Adama|his own father]], who himself is appointed as one of the five judges in Baltar's trial.''

== Summary ==

=== Teaser ===

[[Image:Adama's b-day card.jpg|thumb|right|Adama happens upon an old, self-made birthday card from [[Kara Thrace]], while reviewing her jacket.]]
* [[William Adama]] reviews [[Kara Thrace]]'s service record file, which includes various disciplinary notices, commendations, and citations.
* Meanwhile, on ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Laura Roslin]] presides over a drawing of ship captains who will comprise of the five judges of [[Gaius Baltar]]'s tribunal. [[Tory Foster]] picks up a folded card from the bowl, handing it to Roslin. It reads: Captain [[Elias Meeker]], ''[[Gideon]]''.
* Adama happens upon more records, including a commendation for bravery regarding her actions in recovering the civilians from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]].
* Foster draws out one last name from the bowl. When Roslin opens it, she initially begins to read the card aloud, but stops herself as she reads the name, clearly shocked.
* As Adama continues to slowly run through the jacket, he happens across a self-made birthday card she made for him. The cover reads: "You were always like a father to me...". Upon opening the card, he sees a picture of Thrace, who is wearing his glasses and has a hand-drawn mushdache. Above the picture are the words: "See the resemblance?"; below: "Happy birthday, young man" signing it with "much love, Kara". This elicits a laugh from Adama, who begins to tear up and sniffle.
* On the flight deck, a grieving and inebriated [[Samuel Anders]] stands on top of a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]], who is tossing a coined-[[cubit]], calling "heads" correctly for the fourth time in a row. Watching him are [[Anthony Figurski]], [[Hamish McCall]] and [[Margaret Edmondson]].
* In the [[memorial hallway]], [[Lee Adama]] stands in front of the section containing [[Louanne Katraine|Kat's]] picture. He thumbs with a photo of Thrace, keeping it close to his belly, then pocketing it as he hears the sound of Racetrack's footsteps. Edmondson then gets his attention by calling Adama by his rank.
* Still standing above the cockpit of the Viper, Anders holds out the cubit, saying that his "girl is too lucky to check out". Adama and Edmondson approach; Adama joins Anders on top of the Viper and attempts to talk him down. Emotionally distraught, he initially sits down, then jumps up, saying he has somewhere to go, but he doesn't complete his words as he slips and falls from the Viper. Adama climbs down from the Viper as some of the spectators begin to cluster near the fallen Anders, who says "I think I fell".
* As Adama checks Anders over for injuries, Anders asks him: "She's still alive, right?" Adama replies in the negative, which Anders tearfully claims he knows.
* In [[CIC]], Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] tells Adama he's been selected as one of the five ship captains that form Baltar's tribunal.
* On the hangar deck, Racetrack complains about having to fly [[Alan Hughes|Baltar's lawyer]] back and forth from the ''[[Zephyr]]'', saying he whispers into her ear and takes his shoes off on board.
* Skulls wonders why Baltar is even given a trial while he's obviously guilty, to which Cally replies it's justice.
* An explosive charge detonates aboard the [[Raptor]]. Racetrack walks out unharmed, but Baltar's lawyer is dead.

===Act 1===
*A press conference on Baltar's fate on ''[[Colonial One]]'' asks questions about the trial, a lawyer replacement, and other matters. Roslin stands firm against any terrorist acts affecting the trial.
*In the [[Pilot ready rooms|pilot ready room]], the mood is also somber. Major Adama is making mistakes and distracted. A reconnaissance operation is planned.
*After a joke, Adama says "Starbuck" and not "Racetrack" after the [[Raptor]] pilot makes a joke to [[Sharon Agathon]] about checking under her seat, and an overwhelming awkwardness settles within the room. Adama dismisses the group hurriedly.
*Roslin interviews the new attorney, [[Romo Lampkin]] with Admiral Adama present. Lampkin abruptly introduces the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet leaders]] to his [[Lampkin's cat|cat]], who is in a foul mood.
*Adama asks his son to aid with attorney's affairs. When the younger Adama objects to being grounded as [[CAG]] and indicating that he's "okay", the admiral tells him that he knows that his son isn't okay because the admiral himself is also still in grief over Thrace's death.
*Lampkin is given his quarters and asks to see Baltar. Lampkin wants to choose a room that is unlikely to be wired for surveillance. He tells Major Adama that he was a student of his grandfather, [[Joseph Adama]].
*The scene shifts to see someone's hands preparing explosive charges.

===Act 2===
*Baltar, in a bulletproof vest, is escorted by [[marine]]s to his attorney in Major Adama's quarters. The major is present under client confidentiality.
*Baltar is agitated as he writes more quick notes for his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]]. He knows that the tribunal will use [[Caprica Six]] against him.
*When Lampkin asks to be taken to ''Colonial One'', Adama objects. When he insults Adama, the major reacts violently, his stress over the events of the last two weeks coming forth briefly.
*Adama manages to convince Captain [[Aaron Kelly]] to fly the Raptor with [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] and Lampkin aboard, despite the admiral's grounding order for the major.
*As the Raptor's door is almost closed, Lampkin's cat escapes through the hatchway, and the door is reopened while other deckhands scramble to chase the cat.
*As Chief Tyrol crawls under the Raptor to reach the cat, he discovers the bomb, and everyone madly scrambles away.
*Later, Admiral Adama is infuriated at his son for disobeying orders, noting how everyone is out of sorts since Thrace's death two weeks prior. The admiral orders his son to do his job, properly, for he will be on the other side of the courtroom as a tribunal member.

===Act 3===
*The bomb is dissected and analyzed. Deck crew and officers discuss the problem: One of them is a conspirator. [[Cally Tyrol]] states her opinion, and accuses the Cylons, and more indirectly Sharon Agathon, for the bombings and inciting the riots within the Fleet.
*Major Adama warns Lampkin to watch himself, but Lampkin is philosophical, realizing that someone will eventually get to him, no matter what.
*On ''Colonial One'', Roslin grants Lampkin permission to interview [[Caprica-Six]] in the usual interrogation room. [[Tory Foster]] apologizes to Apollo for the difficulty and delay in getting the files Lampkin requested shipped to him.
*As Lampkin interviews Six, she notes her love for him. Lampkin relates his experiences in love, which moves Six. On asking if Baltar asked about her, Lampkin removes his glasses and shows Baltar's pen, telling her that his sacrifice of his one limited freedom is an expression of his love.
*Lampkin tells her, that unlike Baltar, she won't get a trial.
*Later, [[Anthony Figurski]] delivers the papers Lampkin requested from ''[[Colonial One]]'', noting that Captain Kelly had inspected them. The [[marine]] escort is suspicious, and both they and Lampkin inspect the paper box to their satisfaction.
*As Lampkin enters his key code for opening his quarter's hatch, marine [[Cheadle]] notices a screw on the floor, and realizes that the key lock had been tampered with. He tackles Lampkin, pushing him to safety just as the hatchway explodes, taking the full force of the explosion.

===Act 4===
*Lampkin survives the bomb attack, but is in [[sickbay]]. Major Adama speaks with him and has brought a bag containing Lampkin's possessions.
*Lampkin states that he is a kleptomaniac, and master slight-of-hand thief. Major Adama begins to remove the items with Lampkin commenting on the signifigance of each: Roslin's glasses, a shoe from the prosecuting attorney, a button from the admiral's jacket. "I borrow things," he says. When the major asks what Lampkin took from him, he tells him that he found Thrace's picture, but didn't take it.
*Adama discovers a special object that could only come from an officer. He asks who Lampkin burgled to get this object.
*Major Adama interview Captain Kelly, who admits to be the bomber, warning that he would continue the attacks if left on duty.
*The admiral reinstates his son as [[CAG]], but the younger Adama wants to help Lampkin, to his father's repeated objections. Eventually, the admiral, furious with the major, orders that the major be removed from the board and re-instate [[Helo]] as temporary CAG.
*Thrace's picture makes it on the memorial board as she requested, next to [[Kat]]. Anders, on crutches and with his left leg in a cast, comes in. The two come to terms with Thrace's death and possibly mend a friendship.
*Baltar finds an envelope with his pen, and a note from his attorney.
*The note contains a poetic line, telling Baltar that there is no more powerful ally than a son who decides to step away from his father's shadow.

===Bonus Scene===

*The scene begins with Athena and Cally Tyrol in the hangar deck while the rest of the deck gang is away.
*Athena begins to ask Cally why she accused her of being the bomber, upon which Cally denies ever making a direct accusation.
*Athena responds that she didn't accuse or even indirectly imply that Cally is the bomber, even though Cally was the last deck hand to inspect the Raptor.
*Athena allows Cally to take her gun and hold it to her chest, while Athena states why she knows Cally, despite her intense hatred for the Cylons, wouldn't shoot her. It is because she knows Athena loves her husband, her daughter, and ''Galactica''. Cally, according to Athena, would never dare take a child's mother away.
*After a few tense moments, Athena grabs the gun, points it next to Cally's head and states in unambiguous terms that if Cally is discovered to be the bomber, Athena will kill Cally herself.

== Questions ==
* Is Lampkin's statement to Roslin and Adama that he is seeking the fame (or infamy) of being Baltar's lawyer true, or is there an ulterior motive?

* Will Captain Kelly be punished and if yes, how?

* Besides the attacks caused by Kelly, have there been any other incidents of violence on the scale that Zarek warned Roslin about?

* Will the death of Thrace bring Lee Adama and Sam Anders closer as friends in the future?

* Would the bomb on the Raptor have gone off if Tyrol hadn't discovered it? Is Kelly telling the truth that he would not have triggered it with Lee Adama inside?

* Is Cally's hatred of the Cylons truly towards all Cylons or is she afraid of Athena because of her connection to Tyrol's former lover, Boomer?

* Why does Lampkin wear sunglasses in most of his encounters with people?

* What caused the rift between William Adama and his own father?

* Given Karl Agathon's temporary promotion to CAG, does he have previous flight experience as a Viper pilot?

* Given the reappearance of [[Playa Palacios]] in this episode, what of her other fellow "[[The Colonial Gang]]" correspondents, [[James McManus]] and [[Sekou Hamilton]], or the program itself?

== Analysis ==
* A noticeable pattern between the two Adamas can be seen whenever both are going through a stressful or traumatic situation. Whereas the [[William Adama|elder Adama]] has the experience and the desire to focus on the job that he has to do, the [[Lee Adama|younger Adama]] consistently displays an inability to cope and process his emotions. This difference between the two has often led to sharp divisions, causing another tear in their damaged relationship:
** In the [[Miniseries]], Bill Adama is trying to get on with his life after the loss of his son Zak, but Lee is still full of rage over the incident and quite unambiguously holds his father responsible for what happened.
** When the two Adamas do not agree on the same method of coping with the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier'' in "[[33]]". This eventually leads to Lee Adama becoming [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]]'s military adviser and eventual co-conspirator during the hunt of Arrow of Apollo.
** During the planning for the [[Battle of New Caprica]], the two Adamas butt heads again over strategy and whether it is worth the risk of losing the last remnants of humanity that were with [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] and [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] at the time.

* Lee Adama has consistently shown a tendency to prove that he is not like his father, even though both are described as stubborn by [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] and [[Carolanne Adama]]. This tendency is evident in the last argument between the two when Apollo accuses Adama of not wanting him to become like his grandfather.

* When Lee Adama mistakenly calls [[Racetrack]] "Starbuck", his mental state is reminiscent of "[[Black Market]]" when he constantly found himself recollecting events on Caprica before the genocide.

* William Adama's failure to listen to Carolanne Adama's pleas and advice to tell his son how proud he is of him comes back with a vengeance when Apollo repeatedly asks his father if he is giving him an order, the implication being that Apollo wanted to know if his father is treating him as a son or as a soldier. Adama's refusal to ask Apollo to obey his orders as his son will probably lead to further dissension between the two.

* [[Romo Lampkin]], though he appears to be a lawyer with little courtroom experience, has demonstrated a deep understanding of the human psyche. He takes Roslin's glasses to prevent her from being taken seriously during the trial. His other feats such as raising doubt and bringing out [[Caprica-Six]]'s feelings for [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]], and his slow but sure persuasion of Lee Adama into helping with Baltar's case, give hints to a man who obviously has immense experience with the art of manipulation.

* Lee Adama honors [[Kara Thrace|Thrace]]'s request of having her photo posted next to [[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]'s. His inability to let go of the photo may represent a possible marriage conflict with Dualla if he is unable to truly move on.

* [[Cally Tyrol]] correctly states that the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] wouldn't need to even fire one shot because they may find the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] had torn itself apart because of humanity's tendency towards self-destruction. However, it is also clear that she has not realized that she and the many workers are just as much a part of the problems when they essentially risked the existence of the Fleet with their work strikes, refusal to refine [[tylium]], and disobedience toward military orders ([[Dirty Hands]]). The summary of all those acts cannot be attributed to Cylon intervention as Cally Tyrol is implying that Athena is responsible for the bombings.

* Two weeks have passed since the events of "[[Maelstrom]]". During this time, Adama apparently has been mulling over his memories of Starbuck, including a review of her military record. The audience sees, amongst the items in the folder, a hand-made birthday card which Thrace gave Adama for his birthday once. It jokingly shows Thrace with a color pen mustache and glasses, and asks if Adama can see the resemblance. This moment reinforces the theme that Starbuck was very much a daughter to Adama, even though he stated otherwise in "[[Torn]]". It is very clear that he still sees Thrace as a daughter to him.

* After the events of "[[The Woman King]]", Helo has been reinstated amongst the pilots of ''Galactica'', as the original purpose of assigning him to [[Dogsville]] was in response to his objections and sabotage of the Cylon biological weapon. Starting with "[[Dirty Hands]]", Helo is present at briefings in the ready room, and by the implications of this episode, he appears to be one of the four squadron leaders. Thus, once Apollo's flight status is revoked it is only natural for Adama to promote Helo to the CAG position because of seniority and trust.

* It is unclear whether Helo has experience with a Viper, but numerous Viper pilots have been flying Raptors so far. Whether this goes both ways it yet to be seen, but with Helo's position as head of a squadron and now CAG, it appears that he has at least enough operational and tactical knowledge to do the necessary organizational and administrative duties. His previous experience as Galactica's [[XO]] may also have been a factor in his appointment.

* Though Kelly tells Apollo that he would have never detonated the bomb with him inside, the fact that the bomb had been planted and that Kelly couldn't anticipate Apollo's impromptu decision to join Lampkin, makes it clear that Kelly's original intention was to kill Lampkin ''and'' Athena. Whether this is an indirect statement on Kelly's view on Athena's Cylon heritage or his desire to raise the stakes by not only killing Baltar's lawyer, but sacrifice a member of the crew, is unclear.

* This is the first episode since the end of Season 2 that any member of the "[[The Colonial Gang]]", specifically [[Playa Palacios]] has been seen in the series. This episode and the nature of the remaining episodes may indicate a return to the President-news press relationship that the audience has seen in the past.

== Notes ==
*This episode's title is a pun on the title of the 1926 [[w:Ernest Hemingway|Ernest Hemingway]] novel "[[w:The Sun Also Rises|The Sun Also Rises]]".
*Starting with this episode, [[Katee Sackhoff]]'s name is no longer listed in the opening credits.
*The population count at the start of this episode is 41,399, accounting for [[Kara Thrace]]'s death in "[[Maelstrom]]". At least one birth must have occurred to set off [[Alan Hughes]]'s death in the teaser. Assuming that marine [[Cheadle]] died in the explosion that almost kills Lampkin, the population count would be 41,398, a number that does not take into account any births or other deaths that occurred off-screen.
*[[Karl Agathon]] is temporarily assigned as [[CAG]], despite not having any previously known experience as a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] pilot. This might have been done for production reasons. After Apollo, Helo is the highest-ranking established pilot left. In-universe [[Marcia Case]] or [[Ricky Richardson]] are probably better qualified for the position. [[Hotdog]], who has at least as much experience as former CAG [[Kat]], is also passed over.
*The model ship which [[William Adama|Adama]] destroyed in [[Maelstrom|the previous episode]] is still sitting on a shelf in his quarters.
*[[Romo Lampkin]] exhibits symptoms of [[w:Kleptomania|kleptomania]]. Over the course of the episode he steals many objects Lampkin views as important to their owner from a psychological perspective, and thus provides him with knowledge of a person. Among the objects stolen:
** Gaius Baltar's worn fountain pen
** Laura Roslin's glasses
** Admiral Adama's uniform button, which Adama first searches for when Lampkin talks to [[Caprica-Six]]
** Ms. [[Cassidy]]'s sandal
** [[Aaron Kelly]]'s magnetic component, used in his bomb-making
* The door code to Romo Lampkin's temporary quarters on ''Galactica'' is 1234.
* [[Samuel Anders|Sam Anders]]' flipping a coin and continually coming up with heads is reminiscent of the early moments of Tom Stoppard's play ''Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead''.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''[[Romo Lampkin]] replies to [[William Adama]]'s question regarding his qualifications for defending [[Gaius Baltar]]:''
: '''Lampkin:''' I was born for this. That, and the fact I have a pulse.

* ''Lampkin's cat jumps on [[Laura Roslin]]'s desk:''
: '''Lampkin:''' Lance belonged to my wife. Don't worry, he doesn't scratch or bite like she did. If it's any comfort, I despise him as much as you do, having to hire me. So, there it is. Shall we get started?

* ''Admiral Adama rips [[Lee Adama]] another one:''
: '''William Adama:''' What the hell were you doing out there? I gave you an order. To do a job.
: '''Lee Adama:''' Excuse me, I was ''doing my job''.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah, being led around by the nose! This [[Romo Lampkin|bastard]] yanks your chain and you jump.
: '''Lee:''' He wanted files from ''[[Colonial One]]''–
: '''Bill:''' It was the middle of the night.
: '''Lee:''' Well, you assigned me to security.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah. And there was a bomb on [[Raptor|that ship]]. And you ''missed it''. Security? I gave you ''explicit orders''.
: '''Lee:''' [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] was piloting.
: '''Bill:''' You coulda died. Plain and simple. ''You're a soldier. Live like one. Start acting like one!''
: '''Lee:''' [[Kara Thrace|She]]'s [[Maelstrom|been gone]] two weeks. I didn't realize the clock was running.
: '''Bill:''' (softly) Stop.
: '''Lee:''' No, I'm sorry. Maybe because we're just built differently.
: '''Bill:''' You stop. Don't you dare quantify my loss.
: '''Lee:''' You have no idea. ''You have no frakking idea.''
: '''Bill:''' What, you think yours is deeper?
: '''Lee:''' Well–
: '''Bill:''' Yours is greater? (Lee doesn't respond) ''In two weeks, there's going to be a trial. And I'm going to do what I was chosen to do, and so are you! You build a frakking nest around this man and you '''protect his ass'''!''

* ''[[Aaron Kelly]] opines on shuttling [[Gaius Baltar]]'s [[Romo Lampkin|lawyer]]:''
: '''Kelly:''' Every day I wave jocks out there. A lot of them are my friends. People I care for and love. It's hard enough watching them die in battle, but rickshawing Baltar's frakking attorney around? Frak that.

* ''[[Cally Tyrol]] apparently learns from her [[Dirty Hands|mistakes]]:''
: '''Tyrol:''' I believe that the Cylons want us to destroy ourselves and this is how they're doing it. By planting bombs, making us suspicious of each other. You know what's funny? By the time the Cylons catch up with us, they won't even have to attack. They'll just clean up the mess we made.

* ''Baltar muses over adding to his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]], before discovering his pen has gone missing:''
: '''Baltar:''' The nature of modern life is obsession.

* ''Lee Adama discovers Lampkin's kleptomania:''
: '''Adama:''' So what did you take from me?
: '''Lampkin:''' I was thinkin' the photograph that you carry. [[Kara Thrace|The girl. The pilot.]] The one you carry [in your pocket]. But... you've had enough stolen from you already.

* ''Lee Adama confronts Kelly about the bomb:''
: '''Kelly:''' I would have never let [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] airborne with you on the Raptor. I would have stopped it. You know that.
: '''Adama:''' Yeah, I know that.
: '''Kelly:''' You better lock me up. And I don't want any trial. I won't stop. I will keep trying. I'll keep at it, I will. I did my job, sir. And I have done my job for two years. Every day I've sent people out to fight. I cleared them all to die. So many people... I just got tired of living with that. You ask that man, if you had to choose between giving up his life for a Cylon or human, what do you think he'd say? I had to do somethin'.

* ''Baltar reads a note from Lampkin, after retrieving his pen from the envelope:''
: '''Lampkin:''' There's no greater ally, no force more powerful, no enemy more resolved than [[Lee Adama|the son]] who chooses to step from [[William Adama|his father's shadow]].

== Official Statements ==

Information from the podcast:
* Ron Moore admits that it's a stretch to have both Adamas involved intimately in the trial and even on opposite sides. But the writers decided to go for increased drama, since the trial would otherwise only be carried by guest stars with the show's main characters sidelined. Moore also believes that Admiral Adama is capable to make fair and rational decisions.
* Romo Lampkin's cat was supposed to be run out of the Raptor, but when shooting the cat only strolled. Since it's difficult to teach cats what to do, the film was sped up instead.
* That Lampkin always wears sunglasses was a decision made by the writer that was ultimately supported, despite concern on the part of the actor and the director.

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally Tyrol]]
* [[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Capt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Kandyse McClure]] as Lt. [[Anastasia Dualla]]
* [[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
* [[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as Lt. [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Mark Sheppard]] as [[Romo Lampkin]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Ty Olsson]] as Cpt. [[Aaron Kelly]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Costanza]]
* [[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
* [[Tyler McClendon]] as [[Alan Hughes]]
* [[Stephen Holmes]] as Reporter #1
* [[Christina Schild]] as [[Playa Palacios]]
* [[Alison Matthews]] as [[Karen Fallbrook|Fallbrook]]
* [[Chris Boyd]] as Marine [[Cheadle]]
* [[Colin Corringan]] as Marine [[Nowart]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The Son Also Rises

2007-03-16T15:17:01Z

UncleMikey: /* Notes */

{{Episode Data
| title= The Son Also Rises
| image= 3x18-TheSonAlsoRises-ApolloBaltarLampkin.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 18
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| production= 318
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-03-11
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41399
| oldpopulation= 41400
| prev= [[Maelstrom]]
| next= [[Crossroads, Part I]]
| itunes= http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D219074621%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==
:''With [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial merely two weeks away, [[Lee Adama]] is tasked with protecting [[Romo Lampkin]], Baltar's second lawyer, which finds himself going up against [[William Adama|his own father]], who himself is appointed as one of the five judges in Baltar's trial.''

== Summary ==

=== Teaser ===

[[Image:Adama's b-day card.jpg|thumb|right|Adama happens upon an old, self-made birthday card from [[Kara Thrace]], while reviewing her jacket.]]
* [[William Adama]] reviews [[Kara Thrace]]'s service record file, which includes various disciplinary notices, commendations, and citations.
* Meanwhile, on ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Laura Roslin]] presides over a drawing of ship captains who will comprise of the five judges of [[Gaius Baltar]]'s tribunal. [[Tory Foster]] picks up a folded card from the bowl, handing it to Roslin. It reads: Captain [[Elias Meeker]], ''[[Gideon]]''.
* Adama happens upon more records, including a commendation for bravery regarding her actions in recovering the civilians from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]].
* Foster draws out one last name from the bowl. When Roslin opens it, she initially begins to read the card aloud, but stops herself as she reads the name, clearly shocked.
* As Adama continues to slowly run through the jacket, he happens across a self-made birthday card she made for him. The cover reads: "You were always like a father to me...". Upon opening the card, he sees a picture of Thrace, who is wearing his glasses and has a hand-drawn mushdache. Above the picture are the words: "See the resemblance?"; below: "Happy birthday, young man" signing it with "much love, Kara". This elicits a laugh from Adama, who begins to tear up and sniffle.
* On the flight deck, a grieving and inebriated [[Samuel Anders]] stands on top of a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]], who is tossing a coined-[[cubit]], calling "heads" correctly for the fourth time in a row. Watching him are [[Anthony Figurski]], [[Hamish McCall]] and [[Margaret Edmondson]].
* In the [[memorial hallway]], [[Lee Adama]] stands in front of the section containing [[Louanne Katraine|Kat's]] picture. He thumbs with a photo of Thrace, keeping it close to his belly, then pocketing it as he hears the sound of Racetrack's footsteps. Edmondson then gets his attention by calling Adama by his rank.
* Still standing above the cockpit of the Viper, Anders holds out the cubit, saying that his "girl is too lucky to check out". Adama and Edmondson approach; Adama joins Anders on top of the Viper and attempts to talk him down. Emotionally distraught, he initially sits down, then jumps up, saying he has somewhere to go, but he doesn't complete his words as he slips and falls from the Viper. Adama climbs down from the Viper as some of the spectators begin to cluster near the fallen Anders, who says "I think I fell".
* As Adama checks Anders over for injuries, Anders asks him: "She's still alive, right?" Adama replies in the negative, which Anders tearfully claims he knows.
* In [[CIC]], Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] tells Adama he's been selected as one of the five ship captains that form Baltar's tribunal.
* On the hangar deck, Racetrack complains about having to fly [[Alan Hughes|Baltar's lawyer]] back and forth from the ''[[Zephyr]]'', saying he whispers into her ear and takes his shoes off on board.
* Skulls wonders why Baltar is even given a trial while he's obviously guilty, to which Cally replies it's justice.
* An explosive charge detonates aboard the [[Raptor]]. Racetrack walks out unharmed, but Baltar's lawyer is dead.

===Act 1===
*A press conference on Baltar's fate on ''[[Colonial One]]'' asks questions about the trial, a lawyer replacement, and other matters. Roslin stands firm against any terrorist acts affecting the trial.
*In the [[Pilot ready rooms|pilot ready room]], the mood is also somber. Major Adama is making mistakes and distracted. A reconnaissance operation is planned.
*After a joke, Adama says "Starbuck" and not "Racetrack" after the [[Raptor]] pilot makes a joke to [[Sharon Agathon]] about checking under her seat, and an overwhelming awkwardness settles within the room. Adama dismisses the group hurriedly.
*Roslin interviews the new attorney, [[Romo Lampkin]] with Admiral Adama present. Lampkin abruptly introduces the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet leaders]] to his [[Lampkin's cat|cat]], who is in a foul mood.
*Adama asks his son to aid with attorney's affairs. When the younger Adama objects to being grounded as [[CAG]] and indicating that he's "okay", the admiral tells him that he knows that his son isn't okay because the admiral himself is also still in grief over Thrace's death.
*Lampkin is given his quarters and asks to see Baltar. Lampkin wants to choose a room that is unlikely to be wired for surveillance. He tells Major Adama that he was a student of his grandfather, [[Joseph Adama]].
*The scene shifts to see someone's hands preparing explosive charges.

===Act 2===
*Baltar, in a bulletproof vest, is escorted by [[marine]]s to his attorney in Major Adama's quarters. The major is present under client confidentiality.
*Baltar is agitated as he writes more quick notes for his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]]. He knows that the tribunal will use [[Caprica Six]] against him.
*When Lampkin asks to be taken to ''Colonial One'', Adama objects. When he insults Adama, the major reacts violently, his stress over the events of the last two weeks coming forth briefly.
*Adama manages to convince Captain [[Aaron Kelly]] to fly the Raptor with [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] and Lampkin aboard, despite the admiral's grounding order for the major.
*As the Raptor's door is almost closed, Lampkin's cat escapes through the hatchway, and the door is reopened while other deckhands scramble to chase the cat.
*As Chief Tyrol crawls under the Raptor to reach the cat, he discovers the bomb, and everyone madly scrambles away.
*Later, Admiral Adama is infuriated at his son for disobeying orders, noting how everyone is out of sorts since Thrace's death two weeks prior. The admiral orders his son to do his job, properly, for he will be on the other side of the courtroom as a tribunal member.

===Act 3===
*The bomb is dissected and analyzed. Deck crew and officers discuss the problem: One of them is a conspirator. [[Cally Tyrol]] states her opinion, and accuses the Cylons, and more indirectly Sharon Agathon, for the bombings and inciting the riots within the Fleet.
*Major Adama warns Lampkin to watch himself, but Lampkin is philosophical, realizing that someone will eventually get to him, no matter what.
*On ''Colonial One'', Roslin grants Lampkin permission to interview [[Caprica-Six]] in the usual interrogation room. [[Tory Foster]] apologizes to Apollo for the difficulty and delay in getting the files Lampkin requested shipped to him.
*As Lampkin interviews Six, she notes her love for him. Lampkin relates his experiences in love, which moves Six. On asking if Baltar asked about her, Lampkin removes his glasses and shows Baltar's pen, telling her that his sacrifice of his one limited freedom is an expression of his love.
*Lampkin tells her, that unlike Baltar, she won't get a trial.
*Later, [[Anthony Figurski]] delivers the papers Lampkin requested from ''[[Colonial One]]'', noting that Captain Kelly had inspected them. The [[marine]] escort is suspicious, and both they and Lampkin inspect the paper box to their satisfaction.
*As Lampkin enters his key code for opening his quarter's hatch, marine [[Cheadle]] notices a screw on the floor, and realizes that the key lock had been tampered with. He tackles Lampkin, pushing him to safety just as the hatchway explodes, taking the full force of the explosion.

===Act 4===
*Lampkin survives the bomb attack, but is in [[sickbay]]. Major Adama speaks with him and has brought a bag containing Lampkin's possessions.
*Lampkin states that he is a kleptomaniac, and master slight-of-hand thief. Major Adama begins to remove the items with Lampkin commenting on the signifigance of each: Roslin's glasses, a shoe from the prosecuting attorney, a button from the admiral's jacket. "I borrow things," he says. When the major asks what Lampkin took from him, he tells him that he found Thrace's picture, but didn't take it.
*Adama discovers a special object that could only come from an officer. He asks who Lampkin burgled to get this object.
*Major Adama interview Captain Kelly, who admits to be the bomber, warning that he would continue the attacks if left on duty.
*The admiral reinstates his son as [[CAG]], but the younger Adama wants to help Lampkin, to his father's repeated objections. Eventually, the admiral, furious with the major, orders that the major be removed from the board and re-instate [[Helo]] as temporary CAG.
*Thrace's picture makes it on the memorial board as she requested, next to [[Kat]]. Anders, on crutches and with his left leg in a cast, comes in. The two come to terms with Thrace's death and possibly mend a friendship.
*Baltar finds an envelope with his pen, and a note from his attorney.
*The note contains a poetic line, telling Baltar that there is no more powerful ally than a son who decides to step away from his father's shadow.

===Bonus Scene===

*The scene begins with Athena and Cally Tyrol in the hangar deck while the rest of the deck gang is away.
*Athena begins to ask Cally why she accused her of being the bomber, upon which Cally denies ever making a direct accusation.
*Athena responds that she didn't accuse or even indirectly imply that Cally is the bomber, even though Cally was the last deck hand to inspect the Raptor.
*Athena allows Cally to take her gun and hold it to her chest, while Athena states why she knows Cally, despite her intense hatred for the Cylons, wouldn't shoot her. It is because she knows Athena loves her husband, her daughter, and ''Galactica''. Cally, according to Athena, would never dare take a child's mother away.
*After a few tense moments, Athena grabs the gun, points it next to Cally's head and states in unambiguous terms that if Cally is discovered to be the bomber, Athena will kill Cally herself.

== Questions ==
* Is Lampkin's statement to Roslin and Adama that he is seeking the fame (or infamy) of being Baltar's lawyer true, or is there an ulterior motive?

* Will Captain Kelly be punished and if yes, how?

* Besides the attacks caused by Kelly, have there been any other incidents of violence on the scale that Zarek warned Roslin about?

* Will the death of Thrace bring Lee Adama and Sam Anders closer as friends in the future?

* Would the bomb on the Raptor have gone off if Tyrol hadn't discovered it? Is Kelly telling the truth that he would not have triggered it with Lee Adama inside?

* Is Cally's hatred of the Cylons truly towards all Cylons or is she afraid of Athena because of her connection to Tyrol's former lover, Boomer?

* Why does Lampkin wear sunglasses in most of his encounters with people?

* What caused the rift between William Adama and his own father?

* Given Karl Agathon's temporary promotion to CAG, does he have previous flight experience as a Viper pilot?

* Given the reappearance of [[Playa Palacios]] in this episode, what of her other fellow "[[The Colonial Gang]]" correspondents, [[James McManus]] and [[Sekou Hamilton]], or the program itself?

== Analysis ==
* A noticeable pattern between the two Adamas can be seen whenever both are going through a stressful or traumatic situation. Whereas the [[William Adama|elder Adama]] has the experience and the desire to focus on the job that he has to do, the [[Lee Adama|younger Adama]] consistently displays an inability to cope and process his emotions. This difference between the two has often led to sharp divisions, causing another tear in their damaged relationship:
** In the [[Miniseries]], Bill Adama is trying to get on with his life after the loss of his son Zak, but Lee is still full of rage over the incident and quite unambiguously holds his father responsible for what happened.
** When the two Adamas do not agree on the same method of coping with the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier'' in "[[33]]". This eventually leads to Lee Adama becoming [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]]'s military adviser and eventual co-conspirator during the hunt of Arrow of Apollo.
** During the planning for the [[Battle of New Caprica]], the two Adamas butt heads again over strategy and whether it is worth the risk of losing the last remnants of humanity that were with [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] and [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] at the time.

* Lee Adama has consistently shown a tendency to prove that he is not like his father, even though both are described as stubborn by [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] and [[Carolanne Adama]]. This tendency is evident in the last argument between the two when Apollo accuses Adama of not wanting him to become like his grandfather.

* When Lee Adama mistakenly calls [[Racetrack]] "Starbuck", his mental state is reminiscent of "[[Black Market]]" when he constantly found himself recollecting events on Caprica before the genocide.

* William Adama's failure to listen to Carolanne Adama's pleas and advice to tell his son how proud he is of him comes back with a vengeance when Apollo repeatedly asks his father if he is giving him an order, the implication being that Apollo wanted to know if his father is treating him as a son or as a soldier. Adama's refusal to ask Apollo to obey his orders as his son will probably lead to further dissension between the two.

* [[Romo Lampkin]], though he appears to be a lawyer with little courtroom experience, has demonstrated a deep understanding of the human psyche. He takes Roslin's glasses to prevent her from being taken seriously during the trial. His other feats such as raising doubt and bringing out [[Caprica-Six]]'s feelings for [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]], and his slow but sure persuasion of Lee Adama into helping with Baltar's case, give hints to a man who obviously has immense experience with the art of manipulation.

* Lee Adama honors [[Kara Thrace|Thrace]]'s request of having her photo posted next to [[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]'s. His inability to let go of the photo may represent a possible marriage conflict with Dualla if he is unable to truly move on.

* [[Cally Tyrol]] correctly states that the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] wouldn't need to even fire one shot because they may find the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] had torn itself apart because of humanity's tendency towards self-destruction. However, it is also clear that she has not realized that she and the many workers are just as much a part of the problems when they essentially risked the existence of the Fleet with their work strikes, refusal to refine [[tylium]], and disobedience toward military orders ([[Dirty Hands]]). The summary of all those acts cannot be attributed to Cylon intervention as Cally Tyrol is implying that Athena is responsible for the bombings.

* Two weeks have passed since the events of "[[Maelstrom]]". During this time, Adama apparently has been mulling over his memories of Starbuck, including a review of her military record. The audience sees, amongst the items in the folder, a hand-made birthday card which Thrace gave Adama for his birthday once. It jokingly shows Thrace with a color pen mustache and glasses, and asks if Adama can see the resemblance. This moment reinforces the theme that Starbuck was very much a daughter to Adama, even though he stated otherwise in "[[Torn]]". It is very clear that he still sees Thrace as a daughter to him.

* After the events of "[[The Woman King]]", Helo has been reinstated amongst the pilots of ''Galactica'', as the original purpose of assigning him to [[Dogsville]] was in response to his objections and sabotage of the Cylon biological weapon. Starting with "[[Dirty Hands]]", Helo is present at briefings in the ready room, and by the implications of this episode, he appears to be one of the four squadron leaders. Thus, once Apollo's flight status is revoked it is only natural for Adama to promote Helo to the CAG position because of seniority and trust.

* It is unclear whether Helo has experience with a Viper, but numerous Viper pilots have been flying Raptors so far. Whether this goes both ways it yet to be seen, but with Helo's position as head of a squadron and now CAG, it appears that he has at least enough operational and tactical knowledge to do the necessary organizational and administrative duties. His previous experience as Galactica's [[XO]] may also have been a factor in his appointment.

* Though Kelly tells Apollo that he would have never detonated the bomb with him inside, the fact that the bomb had been planted and that Kelly couldn't anticipate Apollo's impromptu decision to join Lampkin, makes it clear that Kelly's original intention was to kill Lampkin ''and'' Athena. Whether this is an indirect statement on Kelly's view on Athena's Cylon heritage or his desire to raise the stakes by not only killing Baltar's lawyer, but sacrifice a member of the crew, is unclear.

* This is the first episode since the end of Season 2 that any member of the "[[The Colonial Gang]]", specifically [[Playa Palacios]] has been seen in the series. This episode and the nature of the remaining episodes may indicate a return to the President-news press relationship that the audience has seen in the past.

== Notes ==
*This episode's title is a pun on the title of the 1926 [[w:Ernest Hemingway|Ernest Hemingway]] novel "[[w:The Sun Also Rises|The Sun Also Rises]]".
*Starting with this episode, [[Katee Sackhoff]]'s name is no longer listed in the opening credits.
*The population count at the start of this episode is 41,399, accounting for [[Kara Thrace]]'s death in "[[Maelstrom]]". At least one birth must have occurred to set off [[Alan Hughes]]'s death in the teaser. Assuming that marine [[Cheadle]] died in the explosion that almost kills Lampkin, the population count would be 41,398, a number that does not take into account any births or other deaths that occurred off-screen.
*[[Karl Agathon]] is temporarily assigned as [[CAG]], despite not having any previously known experience as a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] pilot. This might have been done for production reasons. After Apollo, Helo is the highest-ranking established pilot left. In-universe [[Marcia Case]] or [[Ricky Richardson]] are probably better qualified for the position. [[Hotdog]], who has at least as much experience as former CAG [[Kat]], is also passed over.
*The model ship which [[William Adama|Adama]] destroyed in [[Maelstrom|the previous episode]] is still sitting on a shelf in his quarters.
*[[Romo Lampkin]] exhibits symptoms of [[w:Kleptomania|kleptomania]]. Over the course of the episode he steals many objects Lampkin views as important to their owner from a psychological perspective, and thus provides him with knowledge of a person. Among the objects stolen:
** Gaius Baltar's worn fountain pen
** Laura Roslin's glasses
** Admiral Adama's uniform button, which Adama first searches for when Lampkin talks to [[Caprica-Six]]
** Ms. [[Cassidy]]'s sandal
** [[Aaron Kelly]]'s magnetic component, used in his bomb-making
* The door code to Romo Lampkin's temporary quarters on ''Galactica'' is 1234.
* [[Samuel Anders|Sam Anders]]'s flipping a coin and continually coming up with heads is reminiscent of the early moments of Tom Stoppard's play ''Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead''.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''[[Romo Lampkin]] replies to [[William Adama]]'s question regarding his qualifications for defending [[Gaius Baltar]]:''
: '''Lampkin:''' I was born for this. That, and the fact I have a pulse.

* ''Lampkin's cat jumps on [[Laura Roslin]]'s desk:''
: '''Lampkin:''' Lance belonged to my wife. Don't worry, he doesn't scratch or bite like she did. If it's any comfort, I despise him as much as you do, having to hire me. So, there it is. Shall we get started?

* ''Admiral Adama rips [[Lee Adama]] another one:''
: '''William Adama:''' What the hell were you doing out there? I gave you an order. To do a job.
: '''Lee Adama:''' Excuse me, I was ''doing my job''.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah, being led around by the nose! This [[Romo Lampkin|bastard]] yanks your chain and you jump.
: '''Lee:''' He wanted files from ''[[Colonial One]]''–
: '''Bill:''' It was the middle of the night.
: '''Lee:''' Well, you assigned me to security.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah. And there was a bomb on [[Raptor|that ship]]. And you ''missed it''. Security? I gave you ''explicit orders''.
: '''Lee:''' [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] was piloting.
: '''Bill:''' You coulda died. Plain and simple. ''You're a soldier. Live like one. Start acting like one!''
: '''Lee:''' [[Kara Thrace|She]]'s [[Maelstrom|been gone]] two weeks. I didn't realize the clock was running.
: '''Bill:''' (softly) Stop.
: '''Lee:''' No, I'm sorry. Maybe because we're just built differently.
: '''Bill:''' You stop. Don't you dare quantify my loss.
: '''Lee:''' You have no idea. ''You have no frakking idea.''
: '''Bill:''' What, you think yours is deeper?
: '''Lee:''' Well–
: '''Bill:''' Yours is greater? (Lee doesn't respond) ''In two weeks, there's going to be a trial. And I'm going to do what I was chosen to do, and so are you! You build a frakking nest around this man and you '''protect his ass'''!''

* ''[[Aaron Kelly]] opines on shuttling [[Gaius Baltar]]'s [[Romo Lampkin|lawyer]]:''
: '''Kelly:''' Every day I wave jocks out there. A lot of them are my friends. People I care for and love. It's hard enough watching them die in battle, but rickshawing Baltar's frakking attorney around? Frak that.

* ''[[Cally Tyrol]] apparently learns from her [[Dirty Hands|mistakes]]:''
: '''Tyrol:''' I believe that the Cylons want us to destroy ourselves and this is how they're doing it. By planting bombs, making us suspicious of each other. You know what's funny? By the time the Cylons catch up with us, they won't even have to attack. They'll just clean up the mess we made.

* ''Baltar muses over adding to his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]], before discovering his pen has gone missing:''
: '''Baltar:''' The nature of modern life is obsession.

* ''Lee Adama discovers Lampkin's kleptomania:''
: '''Adama:''' So what did you take from me?
: '''Lampkin:''' I was thinkin' the photograph that you carry. [[Kara Thrace|The girl. The pilot.]] The one you carry [in your pocket]. But... you've had enough stolen from you already.

* ''Lee Adama confronts Kelly about the bomb:''
: '''Kelly:''' I would have never let [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] airborne with you on the Raptor. I would have stopped it. You know that.
: '''Adama:''' Yeah, I know that.
: '''Kelly:''' You better lock me up. And I don't want any trial. I won't stop. I will keep trying. I'll keep at it, I will. I did my job, sir. And I have done my job for two years. Every day I've sent people out to fight. I cleared them all to die. So many people... I just got tired of living with that. You ask that man, if you had to choose between giving up his life for a Cylon or human, what do you think he'd say? I had to do somethin'.

* ''Baltar reads a note from Lampkin, after retrieving his pen from the envelope:''
: '''Lampkin:''' There's no greater ally, no force more powerful, no enemy more resolved than [[Lee Adama|the son]] who chooses to step from [[William Adama|his father's shadow]].

== Official Statements ==

Information from the podcast:
* Ron Moore admits that it's a stretch to have both Adamas involved intimately in the trial and even on opposite sides. But the writers decided to go for increased drama, since the trial would otherwise only be carried by guest stars with the show's main characters sidelined. Moore also believes that Admiral Adama is capable to make fair and rational decisions.
* Romo Lampkin's cat was supposed to be run out of the Raptor, but when shooting the cat only strolled. Since it's difficult to teach cats what to do, the film was sped up instead.
* That Lampkin always wears sunglasses was a decision made by the writer that was ultimately supported, despite concern on the part of the actor and the director.

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally Tyrol]]
* [[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Capt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Kandyse McClure]] as Lt. [[Anastasia Dualla]]
* [[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
* [[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as Lt. [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Mark Sheppard]] as [[Romo Lampkin]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Ty Olsson]] as Cpt. [[Aaron Kelly]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Costanza]]
* [[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
* [[Tyler McClendon]] as [[Alan Hughes]]
* [[Stephen Holmes]] as Reporter #1
* [[Christina Schild]] as [[Playa Palacios]]
* [[Alison Matthews]] as [[Karen Fallbrook|Fallbrook]]
* [[Chris Boyd]] as Marine [[Cheadle]]
* [[Colin Corringan]] as Marine [[Nowart]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-05-12T22:15:06Z

UncleMikey: /* Massive Reedit on 5/12/06 */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)
::::: I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::::: Regardless, that degree of detail probably didn't belong on the encyclopedic page before the episode had actually aired anywhere...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:57, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:: I'm just so happy that I have no idea what's going to happen next. What a fantastic finale. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 1:48, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because '''I''' certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:Perhaps they accounted for the losses on Caprica? One raptor jumped into '''SOLID ROCK''' (as emphasized on the podcast), and there was quite a bit of shooting before the end of the last episode. Of course, if this is the case, then I would hope the number would have gone up, as they should also account for the Caprica refugees they have joined up with.--[[User:Mxg75|Mxg75]] 16:22, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::My argument was that the figures mentioned have very little bearing on the actual body count caused by Gina's detonation of the nuke. There is no way to know based upon the information as presented in this episode how many were killed in that explosion. The only thing even remotely possible to conclude from those figures is an rough absolute cap. We are not informed of deaths/births between the explosion and the next available population count. The way it was origionally stated in the Questions section (as reprinted above) leads to a conclusion otherwise which leaves out important facts. Untill it is explicitly stated, or much more information on what currently composes the crew in the fleet (as of the second Cylon occupation), it is not possible to say X people died in the destruction of Cloud Nine Et Al.
::: Also, I mean argument in the debate sense, not the 'you stupid idiot' kinda sense. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 21:19, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just <s>unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)</s> Correction: Extremely Unheatlthy and Unproductive Obsession. Thanks SV. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:24, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::: Um, Joe...we're a bunch of geeks spending our time creating an encyclopedia for a TV show. We're all '''about''' unhealthy obsession, aren't we? That said, this particular debate '''is''' pointless and silly. If there's a real story-based reason for the seal being missing, we'll eventually find out what it is. If there isn't (which is most likely), we won't. Making one up is silly. Fanfic is one thing, but this crack can be easily walked over; it doesn't have to be filled in with crap :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)
:::: On one of David Eick's video blogs (my apologies that I can't remember which one or even if it were Ron Moore's), it is stated that there were 2 mock-ups of Colonial One done in CGI and used and reused in the show, one bearing the presidential seal, and one not. And if you look closely as they reuse footage, in various episodes during the season, the seal isn't present on Colonial One. You can't fandangle this obvious glitch. It is jus that, a production glitch that only the most hard-core Scifi nuts would worry about. Ok, I did notice it too. :) --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 23:48, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:: Just to clarify, Merv must've meant that "both Firefly and <del>Lord of the Rings</del> [Battlestar] named something after Legolas." Easy-to-make thought-o. I just didn't want anyone to complain at Merv that he didn't know what he was talking about. Now... This could be an homage to Tolkien, or it could just be a cool name. Has it been mentioned in any blog or podcast or whatever, that anyone knows of? I am always wary of saying this or that is a nod to something else unless it's painfully obvious (like the appearance of ''Serenity'' in the Miniseries). --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:58, 14 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:::But they did not say this bit about Olmos in the same manner or even quite the same time-frame. Also, they were clearly joking about the "CGI Adama", but not necessarily about Olmos not coming back. I have listened to this segment a few times now... It doesn't strike me as a joke. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]]

:::: It's possible that this was an inadvertant leak, but usually, if that sort of major cast change was going to happen, there'd be a lot more hubub about it, and that is the only place I've seen it mentioned. Every bit of news so far for S3 is that the cast is being augmented (with Lucy Lawless slated to show up several times as Number Three, and presumably Dean Stockwell as Cavil), but not reduced, and certainly not by one of its headliners. SciFi's [http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=0&id=34893 blurb about S3] from a couple days ago still mentions Olmos as a star. I think we have to assume that this is a red herring.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::::That's because you're American and don't understand or appreciate irony. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 19:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

* Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:: I assert that it cannot possibly be Gina. In order for it to have been Gina, there would have had to've been a second Res Ship (which is possible, though speculation) and it would have had to've been near enough to New Caprica to pick up Gina's signal (which is presumably transmited in the instant of death). However, if that had happenned, she'd have woken up in a vat somewhere and told the other Cylons what she'd been doing. They wouldn't have needed to rely on an accidental discovery of radiation from Gina's explosion to find the Fleet. As for whether or not Boomer and Caprica-Six would "join the Cylon fleet": I think that this is a new fleet, not the same one that's been harrying our heros the entire series to date. I think that fleet was recalled to wherever (the Cylon homeworld, maybe) and a new expedition, with a different intent, was put together. It might be largely the same ships, even, but it's not the same fleet, ideologically, since it's a "pretection" fleet so that the Cylons can "love" the freedom out of us. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 14 March 2006 (CST)

== Questions Section ==
It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/012.html#UQ "Unanswered Questions"] on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

: As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

: My feelings run something like this:
# If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
# If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
# If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
# Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

: I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.
--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Concur. Actually, when I tackled the questions portions of earlier episodes, I would alays post a link to the question's "answer". For instance, from "[[Water]]"'s page:

:*Why do the Cylons want to keep Helo on Caprica? ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II|Answer 1]], [[The Farm|Answer 2]])

: This presents a cleaner look than:

:*Question 1?
::* Possibility 1.
:::* Sub-Possibility/Retort
::* Possibility 2.

: Plus, if you will note, the questions section on the earlier eps is a lot cleaner and orderly than our most recent entries. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::I recognize part of that is the wiki-magic at work. The newest episode always gets a lot of traffic, and you end up with the "too many cooks" effect, to some extent. This will probably sort itself out in the long run, as people begin to whittle away and classify/sort/clean all the stuff that has been added. I was just thinking it might be a good idea to quantify this concept into the comment that goes at the beginning of the questions section in the Episode Guide template (so that people can ignore it, and things can continue the way they work anyway). Mostly I'm just glad that I'm not the only one. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:12, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::: So, do we start going through and cleaning things up to fit these criteria?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:56, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::::Just want to add that I agree with all of you, and thank you for tackling this issue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:48, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::::I would proceed to add this bit on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] page. Then get to work. So say we all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:27, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::::: I've taken the liberty of adding a clarified (I hope :-) ) version of the guidelines I propose above to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:03, 13 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Nicely done! The new S&C stuff is concise, and descriptive. The questions section looks a lot better! I still don't like the all the multiple levels of bullets in the (newly moved to) analysis section. If we could make that more narrative-ish (hey look, I'm inventing words) and less bulleted it might look cleaner. Thanks for tackling that! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:25, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::::::: Actually, I've been wondering why we use bullet-point rather than narrative style in general :-) The synoposes, in particular....--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 22:23, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::I also agree that removing the direct response to questions make it cleaner, but some identifier may be needed in the analysis sections to link question to response. Short of that, nicely done! --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 01:10, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::I thought about that, actually, flipped a coin and decided against it. When I made similar changes to Part I, I decided in fact to simply remove any question for which an answer could be provided in analysis, and to use analysis as a way of highlighting points that are answered in the episode but may be obscure. I'm not sure this is really what "Analysis" should be for in the long run, but "Notes" is already very crowded on these pages. One disaster at a time is my motto: clean up "Questions" for now, find adequate if not perfect homes for answers that are built from evidence in the episode, delete rampant speculation, and move on, resolving to clean up the rest later.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:55, 15 March 2006 (CST)
== Adama's Inferno ==
By allowing Baltar to be president and the resulting events, Adama has (unintentionally) create a Dante's Inferno, a crucible lesson and test that if humans can pass and survive, may mean we are worthth of survival. He didn't overthrow the election because of the questions of "worthy of survival" This idea is what has drove him the last half of the season. I hope this makes some sense? --[[User:Gougef:FrankieGouge]] 15 March 2006 10:30 PM EST
:I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with the idea that Adama is consciously 'testing' humanity in this way, but I can certainly believe it's a part of his unconscious motivations. On a more practical, political, and risky note, he may have realised that the only way to expose Baltar for the loony he was to let him take charge and then fail, and hope that there was little damage his failure could do in the long term, compared the damage that had already been done. Of course, that gamble didn't count on the Cylons finding them....--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 21:09, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== quotes are inconsistant ==

some have quote marks around them, some don't. some are a different structure. maybe someone with authority should decide on a structure and clean that up. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 02:14, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: This is discussed on [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:31, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Massive Reedit on 5/12/06 ==

This article was filled with inconsistencies in conventions, and was also far too large. To bring the page below 32kb, I've removed the blog entry (leaving the link), excessive quotes, and truncated and trimmed many comments and summaries, particularly those redundant with entries already on other articles.

Please remember to follow wiki conventions (except for verb tense) throughout this and similiar articles in Analysis and other related subarticles of an episode page. Do not write responses to analyses in conversational/argumentative format; make your comments neutral in voice and try to fit the response to give the article a uniform voice. Otherwise the article appears to be less encyclopaedic and more bi-polar (talking to itself). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:32, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
: Kudos! Good work! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:49, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
: Excellent. I've been insanely busy lately and have obviously missed some developments (I note the change in the sources policy in the banner, now, for example). I'm hoping to get back to helping with editorial duties soon.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:15, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki:Chiefs' noticeboard

2006-04-11T19:15:54Z

UncleMikey: /* Spoiler policy */

This noticeboard is a location to discuss and coordinate administrative tasks for the Battlestar Wiki.

It is my hope that this place can serve as a location for administrators to coordinate their efforts on the maintenance tasks of the Wiki (it's not ALL fun and games), as well as a spot for our contributors to be able to bring things to the attention of the admins if something needs to be done. Need a protected page edited? An article or picture deleted? Admins will watchlist this page so that your request won't get lost in the shuffle.

== Tasks ==

Special pages that could use some attention include:
* [[Special:Lonelypages|The Article Orphanarium]]
* [[Special:Deadendpages|Dead-end Pages]] - usually a sign that there are no citations
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Community Portal]] - [[User:Steelviper/CommunityPortal|ideas]] to develop a "portal" for the wiki community

= General =

== David Larson Screen Capture ==
Hi

I am new to the site and wanted to say that it is one of the best Galactica sites on the web. I have used it as a reference source on many, many occassions. Thanks to all the contributors.

A few of weeks from now, I have an opportunity to get an autograph from David Larson (Baby Walker from TOS and one of the Super Scouts). Does anyone have a screen capture of him that I could get him to autograph? Thanks Larrydale140

:Hi, Larry. A number of folks that work on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Original Series Article Development Project]] have the DVD collection and have contributed many screenshots. I would direct your request on [[The Super Scouts]] article to request this picture. Oh, in the future, to sign and date/timestamp your talk entries, just place a couple of hyphens and four tilde ("~") symbols. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:12, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:The [[Walker]] article has the best shot that I could find in Greetings From Earth. I could take a shot of the whole scene (that includes Sarah holding him), though, if you wanted something bigger to print out. You might ask [[User:Mokwella|Mokwella]] about the Galactica 1980 stuff, as he's been the ONLY source of screenshots and information from that series that we've really had. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:30, 8 February 2006 (EST)

[[Image:SarahWalker.jpg|thumb|right]]
:If you click through the thumbnail on the right you should find the full 640x480 screenshot. It's the best pic of Walker that I could easily identify from Greetings from Earth. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:18, 8 February 2006 (EST)

Thank you. The screen capture is perfect. --[[User:Larrydale140|Larrydale140]] 12:18, 9 February 2006 (EST)

== Home, Part II ==
[[Home, Part II]] lacks a summary section in the episode summary. I JUST deleted that episode from my DVR last night (was cleaning things up), so if somebody who has a copy of that could take that on that'd be great. It'd be a shame to have a gap in our RDM episode coverage. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:12, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:Ah, hell, I can probably do that one from memory. I'll look into it if someone doesn't beat me to it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:22, 8 February 2006 (EST)

::Fire continuously? Thanks for looking into it.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== Toaster revision ==

I have proposed a large-scale revision in [[Talk:Toaster]]--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:16, 20 February 2006 (EST)

=== Billy ===

Does anyone know why Billy was killed off? I have been unable to find an official statement on this issue. Did the actor Paul Campbell transfer to a different show or was his death solely story oriented? Is it possible he may come back as a cylon?
:Paul Campbell will be starring in another show, I forget the name.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:26, 8 March 2006 (EST)
:According to RDM's podcast for [[Sacrifice]], the decision to off him was done to let Campbell take advantage of the leading roles he had been offered in other series. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:25, 8 March 2006 (CST)
:It's a shame because I liked the Billy character, and Paul Campbell is pretty funny. See David Eick's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/bts/videoblog Video Blog Number 11: Billy Gets No Respect]. I just watched it last night and am still smiling. -- [[User:Laineylain|Laineylain]] 14:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noticed an uptick in the amount of spamming recently, all linking to the same sites (looks like some sort of a prescription drug outfit).
Examples:
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=The_Gun_on_Ice_Planet_Zero%2C_Part_II&diff=36566&oldid=36465 Redhook]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Howard_Kim&curid=1809&diff=36723&oldid=26771&rcid=34228 Punchcard]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=The_Gun_on_Ice_Planet_Zero%2C_Part_II&diff=prev&oldid=36747 Amanda]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Jolly_%28TOS%29&curid=1455&diff=36759&oldid=34826&rcid=34264 Koharski]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Hydronic_mushies&curid=1581&diff=36765&oldid=36035&rcid=34271 Sh0t]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Jolly_%28TOS%29&curid=1455&diff=36776&oldid=36762&rcid=34283 Pearl]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Hydronic_mushies&curid=1581&diff=36788&oldid=36767&rcid=34296 Mrmortisland]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Hydronic_mushies&curid=1581&diff=36806&oldid=36789&rcid=34315 Eldron]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Jolly_%28TOS%29&curid=1455&diff=36815&oldid=36780&rcid=34324 Davie]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=The_Gun_on_Ice_Planet_Zero%2C_Part_II&curid=2075&diff=36838&oldid=36821&rcid=34349 Smcn]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=The_Gun_on_Ice_Planet_Zero%2C_Part_II&curid=2075&diff=36843&oldid=36839&rcid=34356 Scofco]
# [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User:The_Merovingian&curid=3332&diff=36910&oldid=35836&rcid=34424 Fraseyboy]
...
(I'm going to stop updating this list. It's redundant with the IP block list right now. If we don't do a range block by then I may copy-n-paste the current "week" block people to make sure they get a longer stint.)

I don't have access to their IP addresses, but it appears from the IP block log that they are trying to repeat offend. Just wanted to let you guys know so you can be on the lookout. These persons (if there are, in fact, multiple), have been amply warned and the "leniency window" is quickly slamming shut. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:26, 9 March 2006 (CST)
:I wonder if they're targeting the TOS pages just to aggravate me. Or maybe they're trying to target lower-traffic pages. I don't understand the strategy, but there's not hiding from the Recent Changes (even if they mark their changes as minor). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:10, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::The idea is that they chose short articles on the assumption they have low traffic, I believe; they probably aim for stubs linked by 2-3 well-linked pages, as a trade-off for higher Google returns vs. visibility to wiki-users.
::By the way, is there a way to run a script to pass/fail edits? If so, simple blocking of any edit that adds over, say, 10 URI's to a page would fix the problem until the attacking bots got updated. ...I hesitate to suggest a long-term solution of requiring membership in a group (to which users with 2-3 valid edits are routinely added) to add external links at all.
::On the other hand, a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha Captcha] for all edits seems more feasible; captchas for non-members of a group would allow for maintenance bots and not annoying high-edit-count humans, too. [I posted this 11:34, 2006-03-10 (CST) and appear to have forgotten to sign it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 00:10, 5 April 2006 (CDT)]
:::Captchas are a good idea but unfortunatly easily broken, its best to use a very strong captcha in conjunction with other forms of spam control. On my forum for example i have a hidden field on the forms that means a registration is only made when a person psysically loads the page to sign up. Spammers generall use automated programs to just call the scripts and dont actually load the site. Perhaps a similar idea to this would work? [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:53, 28 March 2006 (CST)

= SPAMER ALERT =

Lpkserj <--- Right now. Block! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Already on it, Red Leader. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:01, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:: There are a few of them now... --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::: Now they just keep coming... this is going to be a longgggggggg night. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:07, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: There is another one know, Joe. Moria, like the wife of Jack Ryan. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:17, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Thanks for the alert, Shane. Maybe this onslaught might merit another look at the checkuser function (for the purposes of doing some ip range blocks)? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:47, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Actually, I just implemented [http://www.elearninglab.it/?page_id=25 MediaWiki anti-spam patch]. It's similar to what I had done before, but when I upgraded the Wiki software the customized files I created were overwritten as well. (Which is why this happened in the first place.) My bad. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)

= Constant Vigilance =
It has come to my attention that vandals are planning a massive attack against all wikis on Easter (April 16th), having started at Wikipedia-Prime as well as MemoryAlpha, etc. Stay sharpe. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:27, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: *sigh* Maybe it would be easier to close down on Easter or something. "Lord[s]! What [frakkin' idiots] these mortals be!" (almost) William Shakespear --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 23:33, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

::"The multiplying villanies of nature do ''swarm'' upon him!" --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:38, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Any links Merv? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:29, 5 April 2006 (CDT)
::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Long_term_abuse/Wikipedia_is_Communism#.22Announcements.22 Vandal] notice board at Wikipedia-Prime. That's the guy. Been pulling stunts at MemoryAlpha, too.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:14, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

:: Can we do admin account activation here? Then you could lookup the username and ip to see if its the same as any of the spammers on the other sites before letting them in? Purely as a temporary measure of course --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 09:33, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::: We could. Temporarily, of course. (This wouldn't be such an issue as I have that day off anyway -- obviously.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:42, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

=Amazon referral links=
Perhaps as a means of raising a little bit of funding that Joe should register as an amazon.com and .co.uk affiliate and change the links in all the merch pages accordingly so that if anyone chooses to purchase any dvds, books or music from a link on this site at least a bit of credit goes towards running this place? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 10:10, 5 April 2006 (CDT)
: I was toying around with that idea. I was also toying around with the idea of Google ads -- only in my delerium because I really don't care for ''that'' idea all that much. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:20, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

=Spoiler policy=
I would like BattlestarWiki's Standards and Conventions page to address the following re: Spoilers. You see, I think that a cast member mentioning something happening in an upcoming episode is a spoiler which we can post on BattlestarWiki. However, as you may recall Ron Moore warning in his blog, in the days leading up to the season 2 finale one guy got his hands on an advanced DVD of the show and posted a lot of screencaps giving away most of the major plot points. RDM was not pleased, nor was I. We should not include such news into our updates of BSwiki. Actually, what I wanted to bring up was something else more important: From time to time, people post what they CLAIM are "advanced script fragments" from upcoming episodes. More often than not, they're actually either fake, or (rarely) from such an early version of the script that it has little to do with the finalized story. The idea which lends a shade of credibility to this (instead of just instantly thinking "someone made this up") is that logically, they send out early fragments of the script for potential guest stars to audition with. Still '''almost all of these things I've ever seen are faked, while the others were from such early draft versions that they did not resemble the story at all.''' You could count on one hand the times these things are actually what appeared in the show. ---->Also, they're not exactly sourced. As a result of this lack of sourcing, many are faked. I mean, there is that handful which might actually have been "demo scripts" for guest actors, but as I said, these are rarely relevant to the actual plot. As a combination of their generally fake nature and lack of sourcing, '''I propose that we add to our Standards and Conventions a rule clarifying our spoiler sourcing policy, that such "advanced script fragments" found on messageboards and such should not be used as a source of information to be put onto BattlestarWiki in any form whatsoever. The only acceptible "spoilers" we use are cast and crew interview information, etc. ''''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:25, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
: For the sake of clarity, I would be fine with this being noted in S&C. However, I believe "script fragments" and message board postings don't qualify as sources and would be eradicated due to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
::Indeed. It's just that several people have been circulating these things and new users (infuriatingly) take them as fact over there. I mean that D3u5 user probably saw it and assumed it was fact and tried to write it up here. That's why I brought it up. But I actually think our current spoiler policies cover this very well, I just felt it should be re-iterated. Thanks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

::: I think that's not unreasonable. Maybe a shortened, kind of condensed blurb on S&C with a link to the full text of the Spoiler policy. Unless you would rather someone else do it, Merv, I'd like to see how you would realize this (i.e. go ahead and do it, unless you don't have the time or whatever). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 19:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:Our current policy is that rumors and spoilers need to be sourced, and should be hidden by spoiltext when not on episode pages. I don't think we need to ban references to non-production sources - that would rule out the accurate and helpful Patriot Resource, among other things. Do I misunderstand your intention? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:45, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:The policy I would like to see, personally is something like this: "Encyclopedic pages should contain only officially released (press release, TV listing) or definitifely sourced (producer's blog or podcast, detailed interview) information. After the episode airs, the episode itself is of course definitive. No detailed synopsis, no matter how credible the source, should be posted on an encyclopedic page before an episode has aired in one of its major markets."
:I deliberately chose '''not''' to batten that down to "...aired in the US..." on the chance that some scheduling oddity might lead to, say, the UK seeing an episode before SciFi ran it. That sort of thing happened all the time with B5, but I don't actually know if it '''can''' happen with BSG.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:15, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

= See also =

* [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators|A list of all admins on Battlestar Wiki]]

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-04-05T16:42:50Z

UncleMikey: /* Something a bit cool... */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

==Design Improvements==
Just a few minor design improvements.
*1. On the image pages the mime/type text is white font on white background. The text of this or background box colour should be changed in the css to be black. http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4151/bsgdesignimprovements11xv.png
*2. The tiny little logon man perhaps changed to something more relevant, bgs logo or viper insignia http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2377/bsgdesignimprovements27up.png
*3. Redirect image should be inverted, this is how it look right now http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1546/bsgdesignimprovements30lv.png
* [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:13, 29 March 2006 (CST)

: When considering design changes, please keep in mind that not everyone reads the site using the default theme. I, for one, find the black background with bright text extraordinarily hard -- downright painful -- on the eyes, particularly in contrast with just about every other program and web site I use. I'm using the straight Monobook theme in my preferences. As a result, there are already some boxes that are all but unreadable unless I highlight the text in them.
: (Ironically, I used to feel just the opposite, but the predominance of white-background websites and GUIs has shifted my preferences. It's easier to go with the flow than to find ways to change every single GUI system I use). --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:20, 29 March 2006 (CST)
::Would it help on the boxes if we specified the white foreground? Granted, this would go against the rest of the text on the page, but I'd think that it'd make it look closer to how it is intended. However, you still have the blue links (unless that can be specified as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:12, 29 March 2006 (CST)
:::Might help. It seems to me that there ought to be some way to make sure that template boxes &c integrate with the theme (using style-sheet names for things, &c), but I haven't messed enough with Mediawiki themes to know exactly how you'd do it portably.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:16, 29 March 2006 (CST)
::::You're absolutely right. That would be the correct way to do it. I too, however, lack that [[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_styles|knowledge]], and so I end up reaching for the quick/easy/ugly hack. Day has mentioned looking into such things in the past. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:25, 29 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I'm pretty good with CSS. I'll look into this, but I don't want to commit to a project I won't have time to see through properly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:52, 29 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: I would feel comfortable commiting to this project, time-wise. I feel confident enough in my CSS skills that I either know or know how to find out anything that would be needed to be done... I just need to remember to email Joe about which files do what and that kind of thing. Then... Do we put the CSS labels in spans and divs in the Wikicode, then? Or somehow mesh it into the XHTML generated by MediaWiki? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 01:34, 30 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: I'm not too pro in the likes of CSS but perhaps in the meantime something like the redirect image could be made as a red arrow with a transparent png background then it would ok on both a white and a black background? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:38, 30 March 2006 (CST)

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:I posted up something in [[Battlestar_Wiki:Bots]]. I am currenly going over a bot's code to make sure all the changed that would be needed are done. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:19, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::Make "Task Bot" with the bot flag. :) Getting it all setup with the cookies it needs on my end. Also sent you an e-mail on setup procedures. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:12, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Ack, sorry about that. Alien bimbos took my brain, since they lost Spock's. (As you can see, it has been returned.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:58, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Alien bimbo brain thieves happen :-) When the wiki is ready for customers, I'll post the link in my user page :-) Thanks for the help!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:45, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Shane's Departure==
I received the following in private comunication from Shane this morning:
:10:03:38 AM shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com: I have left the wiki because of your comments with merv about the RFC. You knew that was not an approved way, and Joe had already said so. So say we all.
:shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com disconnected (10:03:51 AM)

The comments he referred to can be found [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Succession Boxes|here]]. I am unaware of any comments by you to that effect, but felt that I should bring the matter to your attention in the event that I overlooked something. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: I might have missed something as well... because I don't recall ruling one way or the other. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:20, 27 March 2006 (CST)

:: You didn't. Shane is overreacting. There's far too much drama on both sides of this particular tiff, but Shane is overreacting badly, here.
:: Peter, for what it's worth, I don't see anything '''you've''' done that would constitute a reason someone should leave. Perhaps Shane was expecting more "protection" from what he saw as an unjust series of personal attacks, but I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation '''anywhere''' on the 'Net, let alone in a loosely-moderated universe such as this.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 27 March 2006 (CST)

::: You are indeed correct, UncleMikey, when it comes to the drama on both sides of this issue. Both sides are at fault. I believe that it would be best if both sides shed the negativity, take a deep breath, and start anew from the same page, as it were. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: On second thought, I believe he thinks that the RFC process is something that I had apparently not approved of. (Quite contrary, seeing as I imported it from the English Wikipedia to deal with future issues, should they arise.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:27, 27 March 2006 (CST)

== On Gmail ==

Need to talk please. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:20, 31 March 2006 (CST)

== Something a bit cool... ==

The traffic comparison links you posted are impressive, Joe. Memory Alpha still beats us handily, but we're not THAT far behind. And we're neck and frakin' neck with BattlestarGalactica.com. Amazing. Go us! --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:44, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
: To quote Teal'c: Indeed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:50, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:I have two things: First, what day was BSWiki originally created? Because the thing there lists when the new location was moved to, but not the original creation date. Second, Joe, not a lot of people use BattlestarGalactica.com, relatively speaking. On the various dozen fansites and messageboards I'm always checking, most rely on GalacticaStation.com.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:16, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
::Admittedly the numbers on GS aren't as high, but it's a lot better organized and updated on a daily basis, while BS.com has never been my first pic for up to date news. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:20, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:::My best guess would fall somewhere around "22:48, 17 November 2004" based on [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Main_Page/Archive&diff=prev&oldid=742 this diff], which is the oldest diff under Joe's account. That's not really definitive proof, but given the content of the edit (and other edits around that time) it seems like that's when things were first getting off the ground. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:26, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:: In reply to Merv: I launched the site early November 2004; it didn't really hit the ground running until February 2005 in my mind. As for GS, we blow GS out of the water from the look of things. I did want to compare us to Wookieepedia, but it only compares the whole domain (wikia.org), not the individual folder's under theat domain. It would be interesting how we spar with the Star Wars wiki though. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:28, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well Star Wars simply has a greater amount of material. I mean it's not just six movies it's an ever expanding book series. I guarantee it's bigger than anything Star Trek could ever make on an encyclopedia; not a matter of quality, simply in terms of numbers of names, places, events and so forth that make up an encyclopedia. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])
::::I'm not too sure about that. 3+7+7+7+3 = 27 seasons of television + 10 movies + a whole bunch of novels? Star Trek has a lot of material too, although less of it is "canon". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:50, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Over 700 episodes. But there's a LOAD of information in the EU books. I don't even read the Star Trek books, but the Star Wars books are a really good continuation of the universe.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:51, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::My understanding is that the "Expanded Universe" series of Star Wars books aren't exactly canon themselves. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:52, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::[[Wikipedia:Star Wars canon|It's complicated and involves code letters, holocrons, and a madman]]; anyway, the novels are canon, just 2nd tier.
:::::::: I'm sorry. That just makes my teeth itch. If George Lucas would feel free to ignore it if he wrote any more ''Star Wars'' stories -- which I'm pretty sure he would, given that he ignores his '''own''' continuity on occasion -- then it's not canon. It doesn't matter how authors, publishers, and fanboys dress it up they can make themselves feel better about it, it's still not canon.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:42, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Scattered/Archive 1

2006-04-04T22:47:36Z

UncleMikey: /* New Analysis Format Thoughts */

== Concern Regarding the Quote from "BSG Insider" ==

Can we have a source URL (or two) for the following:

:''"So much for all the hype about Alonzo's acting convincing Ron Moore to "resurrect" Socinus from the Pilot Movie, only to kill him off at the start of the 2nd season. Guess they're trimming the fat to account for those main cast salary increases, huh?" - Anonymous BSG Insider, April 18th, 2005.''

Otherwise, I don't feel that it should be added to this page, unless there are other people out there who would like to vote for its amendment to the [[Scattered]] page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:01, 1 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Well, I usually like to see evidence of this. I don't suppose that there is place for a rumors section with regards to these yet unseen episodes?--[[User:67.136.143.139|67.136.143.139]] 23:04, 10 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::: I would add it to the regular page, except that I need a source URL (such as a news report from some place like GateWorld, etc.) with this quote. Otherwise, I have no problem with it. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:38, 11 Jun 2005 (EDT)

----
Shouldn't season openers be somewhat interesting? Like, say, spend for that 5 minutes TOTAL on every single major plot point left open from the previous season?
This felt like a filler episode to me. Don't filler episodes usually wait till mid season or something?

== Questionable Questions ==
We saw Captain Kelly in the mini-series, but yeah, not much of anywhere else. Still, he was around before. Gaius also did Boomer's test before he ever began testing on a large scale. I doubt he would've released his info based on his behavior in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. Also, I just think Tigh hate Baltar for being flirtatious with his wife in that same episode. All speculation...but y'know...makes sense stuff. Oh yes, and in the podcast, RDM says that they didn't check out the ship wreckage in the flight pod because they were too busy and the flight pod was unused. He also says that they speculated that the ship was destroye don impact because there was no fire. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 21:17, 16 July 2005 (EST)
:I think the reason Kelly wasn't seen in season 1 was due to the fact that by the time they decided to have a season 1, the actor was unavailable at the time.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:18, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)
:: Well, realistically, we know that... but obviously, in the BSG universe, there's got to be a reason why we haven't seen him before. Also, quick question, did we actually ''see'' Cylons firing from behind the foliage? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)
:: No we don't. All they saw was muzzle flash, but the audience can recognize the sound of the Centurions' arm cannons. Though, that could be turned against us. Perfect example of the use of non-dramatic irony in this show that makes it so good. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 0:31, 17 July 2005 (EST)
=== The Significance of "3" ===
As for the "three" question, you may want to see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_%28number%29#In_human_culture . I'm thinking that it has something to do with the holy trinity... (or maybe a family unit, such as one created by Helo and Valerii -- or Baltar and Six). -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

: RDM just said that the door with the "3" on it was just a motif for that ep. We never saw what was behind it until the final act and seeing Tigh about to kill himself. The door is the one that leads into his quarters and where his death was prevented by Adam's actions. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 0:33, 17 July 2005 (EST)

== Medic guest star? ==

RDM mentioned on the podcast that the medic who performed surgery on Commander Adama in this episode was portrayed by Jamie Bamber's wife. AFAIK she is not mentioned under Guest Stars nor anywhere else on this page. Anyone know what her name is? Should we add some mention here?
--[[User:Laven|Laven]] 01:52, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Episode Screen Capture==
While the current screen capture is quite visually appealing, the episode guide template guidelines promote the use of a 16:9 (or 4:3) ratio shot. If a good shot of that aspect ratio could be found, ideally we would replace this one. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:13, 19 January 2006 (EST)
:Is it ok now? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 07:33, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::Fine by me! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== New Analysis Format Thoughts ==
Bold. ('''Bold?''') I like it, but my only reservation is that I doubt the analysis section would be able to unfold in that format. What we may have is a format that people use around the time the show airs, and then a later format imposed later that categorizes/sorts/etc. the analysis that has been left. Which is sort of how the "Questions" thing looks to have sorted itself out as well. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:56, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:Exactly so -- I'm not expecting all users to fall into this pattern, and I don't expect the Questions section to stop collecting initial speculations and analysis. The purpose behind this project is basically post-filtering. This page is a good example of why allowing user questions (as opposed to dangling-thread questions) to initially be answered is not entirely evil. The result was several good analysis points, once it was boiled down. At some point, I may rephrase the section on the Standards page to suggest that using Questions for Q&A/speculation is OK '''initially''' but that it '''will''' eventually get cleaned up to follow the guidlines.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:47, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

I disagree with your whole attempt to change the Questions and Analysis sections. Some concision and minor editing tweaks to streamline it are always a plus, but a change in the format itself I oppose. More on this as I get to it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:58, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
: -->***However, upon further examination (I'm "much to hasty"), I have no problem with what you specifically just did here: I don't have any real concern with shifting things around from Questions to Analysis, as long as nothing gets actually removed. This page seems like a good change, and I'd hold this up as an example of "good" concision: not destroying any of the detailed analysis and stuff we've been doing, just shifting it around for formatting, etc. Btw, minor quibble, does everyone think that they should be bolded like that? I don't care one way or the other. --->As for the computers issue....yes I actually think that the networking was responsible for this and I never had a problem with that. In it's current form, this sounds POV. Perhaps you could heavily edit it around to include interlinks to our discussions on Computers and Science in the Re-Imagines Series? (I'd erase it if I did it).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

::If you're OK with this page, then you and I are really much closer in our opinions of this reform than you have seemed to think. My aim in all of this is not to lose real information or analysis from the pages, but to edit out the forum-like bickering, crosstalk, and speculation and keep things focused on providing that information in an encyclopedic format.
::The section on the networked computers was original to the article and is mostly unchanged, but could use some cleanup/revision. Actually, being a born and bred geek, I find most of that section unnecessary and redundant. The simple answer would be: "If any component that receives '''any''' external input -- including, say, DRADIS -- were made part of the network, then the resulting network is vunerable. The annals of real-world networked computing abound with tales of vunerabilities exploited through unexpected means."--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:41, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Scattered/Archive 1

2006-04-04T22:41:58Z

UncleMikey: /* New Analysis Format Thoughts */

== Concern Regarding the Quote from "BSG Insider" ==

Can we have a source URL (or two) for the following:

:''"So much for all the hype about Alonzo's acting convincing Ron Moore to "resurrect" Socinus from the Pilot Movie, only to kill him off at the start of the 2nd season. Guess they're trimming the fat to account for those main cast salary increases, huh?" - Anonymous BSG Insider, April 18th, 2005.''

Otherwise, I don't feel that it should be added to this page, unless there are other people out there who would like to vote for its amendment to the [[Scattered]] page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:01, 1 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Well, I usually like to see evidence of this. I don't suppose that there is place for a rumors section with regards to these yet unseen episodes?--[[User:67.136.143.139|67.136.143.139]] 23:04, 10 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::: I would add it to the regular page, except that I need a source URL (such as a news report from some place like GateWorld, etc.) with this quote. Otherwise, I have no problem with it. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:38, 11 Jun 2005 (EDT)

----
Shouldn't season openers be somewhat interesting? Like, say, spend for that 5 minutes TOTAL on every single major plot point left open from the previous season?
This felt like a filler episode to me. Don't filler episodes usually wait till mid season or something?

== Questionable Questions ==
We saw Captain Kelly in the mini-series, but yeah, not much of anywhere else. Still, he was around before. Gaius also did Boomer's test before he ever began testing on a large scale. I doubt he would've released his info based on his behavior in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. Also, I just think Tigh hate Baltar for being flirtatious with his wife in that same episode. All speculation...but y'know...makes sense stuff. Oh yes, and in the podcast, RDM says that they didn't check out the ship wreckage in the flight pod because they were too busy and the flight pod was unused. He also says that they speculated that the ship was destroye don impact because there was no fire. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 21:17, 16 July 2005 (EST)
:I think the reason Kelly wasn't seen in season 1 was due to the fact that by the time they decided to have a season 1, the actor was unavailable at the time.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:18, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)
:: Well, realistically, we know that... but obviously, in the BSG universe, there's got to be a reason why we haven't seen him before. Also, quick question, did we actually ''see'' Cylons firing from behind the foliage? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)
:: No we don't. All they saw was muzzle flash, but the audience can recognize the sound of the Centurions' arm cannons. Though, that could be turned against us. Perfect example of the use of non-dramatic irony in this show that makes it so good. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 0:31, 17 July 2005 (EST)
=== The Significance of "3" ===
As for the "three" question, you may want to see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_%28number%29#In_human_culture . I'm thinking that it has something to do with the holy trinity... (or maybe a family unit, such as one created by Helo and Valerii -- or Baltar and Six). -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

: RDM just said that the door with the "3" on it was just a motif for that ep. We never saw what was behind it until the final act and seeing Tigh about to kill himself. The door is the one that leads into his quarters and where his death was prevented by Adam's actions. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 0:33, 17 July 2005 (EST)

== Medic guest star? ==

RDM mentioned on the podcast that the medic who performed surgery on Commander Adama in this episode was portrayed by Jamie Bamber's wife. AFAIK she is not mentioned under Guest Stars nor anywhere else on this page. Anyone know what her name is? Should we add some mention here?
--[[User:Laven|Laven]] 01:52, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Episode Screen Capture==
While the current screen capture is quite visually appealing, the episode guide template guidelines promote the use of a 16:9 (or 4:3) ratio shot. If a good shot of that aspect ratio could be found, ideally we would replace this one. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:13, 19 January 2006 (EST)
:Is it ok now? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 07:33, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::Fine by me! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== New Analysis Format Thoughts ==
Bold. ('''Bold?''') I like it, but my only reservation is that I doubt the analysis section would be able to unfold in that format. What we may have is a format that people use around the time the show airs, and then a later format imposed later that categorizes/sorts/etc. the analysis that has been left. Which is sort of how the "Questions" thing looks to have sorted itself out as well. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:56, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

I disagree with your whole attempt to change the Questions and Analysis sections. Some concision and minor editing tweaks to streamline it are always a plus, but a change in the format itself I oppose. More on this as I get to it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:58, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
: -->***However, upon further examination (I'm "much to hasty"), I have no problem with what you specifically just did here: I don't have any real concern with shifting things around from Questions to Analysis, as long as nothing gets actually removed. This page seems like a good change, and I'd hold this up as an example of "good" concision: not destroying any of the detailed analysis and stuff we've been doing, just shifting it around for formatting, etc. Btw, minor quibble, does everyone think that they should be bolded like that? I don't care one way or the other. --->As for the computers issue....yes I actually think that the networking was responsible for this and I never had a problem with that. In it's current form, this sounds POV. Perhaps you could heavily edit it around to include interlinks to our discussions on Computers and Science in the Re-Imagines Series? (I'd erase it if I did it).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

::If you're OK with this page, then you and I are really much closer in our opinions of this reform than you have seemed to think. My aim in all of this is not to lose real information or analysis from the pages, but to edit out the forum-like bickering, crosstalk, and speculation and keep things focused on providing that information in an encyclopedic format.
::The section on the networked computers was original to the article and is mostly unchanged, but could use some cleanup/revision. Actually, being a born and bred geek, I find most of that section unnecessary and redundant. The simple answer would be: "If any component that receives '''any''' external input -- including, say, DRADIS -- were made part of the network, then the resulting network is vunerable. The annals of real-world networked computing abound with tales of vunerabilities exploited through unexpected means."--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:41, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

Scattered

2006-04-04T20:25:15Z

UncleMikey: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data|
Image =[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|250px]]
| Title=Scattered
| Series=[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the Re-imagined Series]]
| Season=[[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode=1
| Guests=
| Writer=[[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=2.01 '''(Season 2.0 Premiere)'''
| Rating= 2.6
| US Airdate=July 15 2005
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=Dec 20 2005 (US Season 2.0)
| Population=47,875
| Prev=[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]
| Next=[[Valley of Darkness]]
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Chaos is rampant as paramedics try to save [[William Adama|Commander Adama]]'s life after he is shot, and the ''[[Galactica]]'' is separated from the fleet.''

: '''Note''': This is part one of a two-part episode. See the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]," for the conclusion.

== Summary ==

===On ''Galactica''===

*Moments after the shooting of [[William Adama|Adama]], a [[Cylon Basestar|basestar]] ambushes the Colonial fleet, prompting [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] to execute an emergency [[FTL]] jump procedure for the fleet to rendezvous at another point. After ''[[Galactica]]'' jumps, it finds itself stranded from the rest of the fleet, in the middle of nowhere.
*After being shot by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], Commander Adama is rushed to the ship's infirmary. As Dr. [[Cottle]] is not onboard, a team of [[Layne Ishay|medics]] work to stabilize Adama's condition.
*Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]] devises a plan to find the co-ordinates of the fleet: he networks the [[FTL]] computer to the Navigation, Damage Control, and Fire Control [[computers]] aboard ''Galactica'', so it will only take 10 minutes to compute the fleet's location. The only problem is that ''Galactica'' will have to jump back to [[Kobol]] to their last position, where the Cylons emerged, and keep both their fighters as well as the Cylon computer viruses at bay until the calculations are finished.
[[Image:201 02.jpg|thumb|Tigh brutalizes Valerii during her interrogation.]]
*[[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] visits the incarcerated Valerii, who insists she knows nothing about what's going on. She asks about Adama's condition.
*[[Lee Adama]] is given permission to leave the brig on a provisional basis by [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] and helps lead the squadron that will attack the basestar.
*Once ''Galactica'' jumps back to Kobol, the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]]s manage to hold off the oncoming waves of [[Cylon Raider]]s. A [[Heavy Raider]] makes it way towards ''Galactica''. It is shot down and crashes into the starboard [[flight pod]], depressuring it.
*Gaeta manages to calculate the fleet location, and ''Galactica'' jumps to meet them.
*The medics successfully stabilize [[William Adama|Adama]]'s condition, although he remains in serious condition.
*The crashed Heavy Raider seems completely destroyed as it lay on ''[[Galactica]]'s'' starboard flight deck, but multiple sets of red sensors soon light up from inside, and a group of [[Cylon Centurion]]s make their way out of the craft.

===On Caprica===

* In the [[Delphi Museum]], [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Kara Thrace]] meet after she recovers the [[Arrow of Apollo]]. Thrace attempts to shoot the [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii]].

* Helo stops Thrace and tells her that Valerii is pregnant. Kara refuses to accept it.
* After Kara's attempt to shoot Valerii, she escapes from the Delphi Museum's grounds in Kara's captured Cylon Raider. (Exclaims Starbuck: "Bitch took my ride.")

===On Kobol===

*On Kobol, the survivors of the Raptor crash escape into the forest to avoid the Cylons.
*With [[Socinus]] dying, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]], [[Cally]], and a crewmember named [[Tarn]] return to the crash site to retrieve a medkit. On their way back, the trio are ambushed by Cylons, and only Tyrol and Cally manage to escape.

== Summary from scifi.com ==

With Commander Adama fighting for his life after being shot by the Cylon infiltrator Sharon, and President Roslin languishing in the ''Galactica's'' brig after losing the power struggle with Adama, Colonel Tigh is thrust into the unfamiliar role of the sole leader in a time of crisis.

The situation worsens quickly. First, Tigh sends Lee to the brig for siding with Roslin against Commander Adama. Then an emergency jump to escape an incoming Cylon force goes wrong, leaving Galactica alone in space, separated from the rest of the fleet — and from the medical help needed to save Adama's life.

As Tigh struggles to come to terms with this crisis, he thinks back on his relationship with Adama, who saved him from oblivion and from his own fierce temper, and tries to tap into some of the wisdom that his old friend offered him.

It soon becomes clear that to reconnect with the fleet, ''Galactica'' must jump back into danger over Kobol and network its computers, a highly risky move that will make the ship vulnerable to attack from both the Cylon fighters and their crippling computer viruses.

Meanwhile, on the surface of Kobol, Chief Tyrol and the rest of the downed Raptor crew fight for their lives against an unseen enemy while Vice President Baltar seeks solace in his visions of Number Six, only to find those visions turn dark and haunting.

Light-years away, on Cylon-occupied Caprica, Kara and Helo must find some way to bring the Arrow of Apollo back to the fleet — but first they have to get it back from the avatar of Number Six who has found it in the Delphi Museum. 
--This section ©2005, [http://www.scifi.com SCI FI]. All rights reserved.

== Questions ==

* Does Tigh recall that [[Gaius Baltar]] first tested his [[Cylon detector]] on Valerii? Or did he know in the first place? ([[Resistance|Answer]])
* Regarding the firewall status display: What is not to say that the Cylons programmed the display, or more accurately the GUI interface for it, to show a false reading on their intrusion progress? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]] for related topic)
* Just how many aboard the ''Galactica'' agree with Adama's decision to jail Roslin?
* What is the significance of the number "3"? It is prominently shown on a door that a younger William Adama enters (in Colonel Tigh's flashbacks); when Lieutenant Gaeta arranges 3 bars of soap beside each other after washing his hands in the bathroom, and is also shown during the sequence with the firewall (that Lieutenant Gaeta devises to slow down the infiltration of the Galactica's network by Cylon forces), that has 4 levels of encryption, with 3 sub-encryption codes for each barrier.

== Analysis ==
*'''Visual evidence of the data security breach''': If you look really hard, the instant that Gaeta leans away from the status display to the floor to yank out the cable networking the computers (while he's not looking), the display does show that the last firewall was breached for a split second (probably why the Cylons weren't able to infiltrate a few but not all of Galactica's computers).
[[Image:Virus Scattered.JPG|thumb|The Cylon Virus breaches Gaeta's firewalls in the upper-left corner of picture ([[Scattered]]).]]

*'''Kelly as third-in-command''': In this episode, we discover that [[Aaron Kelly|Captain Aaron Kelly]] is third-in-command, but we haven't really seen that much of him since the [[Miniseries]] (although we see him doing his job as [[Landing Signal Officer]] in "[[Final Cut]]"), which makes this seem contrived. However, in the [[Miniseries]], Kelly gives Tyrol an order to aid the stricken port flight pod rescue after Tigh hesitates to give an order (himself following Adama's command to tend to the matter). Giving such an order with the second-in-command standing there is something only a third-in-command would have the guts or authorization to do. Tigh did countermand him moments later to order the venting of the pod, but did not suggest he was out-of-line for stepping in. This strongly suggests that Kelly already was third-in-command, either at the time of decommissioning or as a direct result of casualties taken in the attack.

*'''Time placement relative to "[[Valley of Darkness]]"''': Considering that Colonel Tigh is still sitting at Commander Adama's bedside as [[Valley of Darkness]] opens, and that the Vipers deployed in this episode have just arrived in the flight deck, and the pilots are getting out of their aircraft, it is plausible to assume that [[Valley of Darkness]] takes place either directly after the events of this episode, or at the most, a couple of hours.

*'''Starboard Flight Pod''': The starboard flight pod is significantly damaged in this episode. However, as RDM reminded us in audio commentary (podcast) for this episode, this landing pod - originally set up as a museum - is not in active use.

*'''The networked-computer vunerability''': Computers simply being networked is not a sufficient condition to allow foreign interference - why would any of the systems [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] linked be connected to [[wireless]] channels? Was the infiltration that he detected most likely originating from within ''[[Galactica]]''?

:No and yes. As with any other Colonial ship, ''Galactica'' receives data all the time from exterior sources. In addition to its mainframe computer, ''Galactica'' primary computers include the FTL, Navigation, Damage Control, and Fire Control systems. The mainframe ostensibly handles wireless communications (Note Caprica-Valerii's request for access to the mainframe with its communications channels in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]"). The mainframe probably ''did'' come under attack by the Cylon virus but was able to avoid infection because a Colonial mainframe may have been what the Colonials believed would be the central lynchpin in stopping any Cylon computer cracking.

:While the Colonial Fleet was lax in their computer defenses since the [[Cylon War]], they probably believed that a networked computer system would be acceptable provided that their battlestar's mainframe computer or a robust avionics package and programming would be able to block or stop any electronic incursion. That fact might have been true--where it not for the [[Command Navigation Program]], which gave the Cylons a backdoor to any Colonial flight computer system. Instead of ramming the main door (mainframe) down, the Cylons used the "window", entering through a lesser computer (or opening a hole in their network) to achieve the same effect. The CNP helped to bypass the defenses of the mainframe, where normal communications were probably screened and electronic attacks thwarted, to enter through another system.

:''Galactica's'' computers may have never been networked in her history before this episode. Her computers may also not be as robust as her sister battlestars. But her computers were designed to be networked or run separately since Gaeta was able to set up a network at all. It was very likely that the mainframe was part of Gaeta's ad hoc network since the other computers would not be able to gather any data from the mainframe's wireless communications. Once the connections were made, the other computers (all of which probably had less resistance or defenses to Cylon viruses) were likely more susceptible to infection than the mainframe as these computers could now "hear" the same things that the mainframe heard normally in its business (such as Cylon electronic attack sequences), but was far more able to thwart. The lesser computers became infected quickly. After a time, even the mainframe in whole or in part would be infected since the Cylon virus is remarkably adaptable and polymorphic, even turning later into a [[Logic bomb]] after learning and probing ''Galactica's'' hardware.

== Notes ==

*The second season introduced the practice of showing the current fleet population in the opening credits. Throughout this episode, that population is 47,875. That represents 12 total casualties since "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II".
* [[Socinus]]'s lungs are filling with fluid.
* Captain Kelly is now the third in the chain of command, after Tigh.
** '''Note:''' It is possible that Kelly is only third in command because of the malefactions of Apollo, and that, typically as fourth it is not a surprise that we have not seen him before. The sudden incapacity of two superiors has bumped him up the ladder. It is also worth noting that Doc Cottle holds the rank of Major, as stated in "[[Bastille Day]]", which would make him third in command, were it not for his absence from Galactica when Adama was shot.
** '''Note:''' Another possibility is that Dr. (Major) Cottle might not even be in "Galactica's Line of Sucession" at all (he is a medical officer, not a combat officer); in the United States military there are times when a lower ranking person will be in "Operational Command" of people who are technically higher in rank. For example, the United States Navy makes a distinction between Line Officers and Staff Officers. Line officers are those officers in general military specialties, and are eligible to command ships and other units. Staff Officers, however, are only permitted to command units within their specialty. Aboard ships, the senior Line Officer is in command, no matter the rank of any embarked Staff Officer.
* Adama and Tigh served on a merchant freighter together after leaving the military; Adama was responsible for bringing Tigh back into the military when he reentered.
* This episode marks the first (known) attempt at networking ''Galactica'''s computer systems, at least under William Adama's command.
* Tigh's distrust of Baltar seems evident in this episode, particularly in the reply he made to [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] regarding the trust he had in the Lieutenant's programming abilities over Baltar's.
* Tigh's wife has taken residence in Tigh's quarters.
* Starbuck seems to incorrectly assume that there is a "real" Sharon and that the Sharon on Caprica is just a copy of her.
* This episode introduces the first combat depiction of the Cylon [[Heavy Raider]], previously seen during [[Colonial Day]].
* This episode showed the first change in the intro sequence, including subtitles, a lack of the "episode clip" sequence, and the use of the theme music previously used only in the UK showings of the first season.
*Kerry Norton (Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]) is the wife of Jamie Bamber (Lee `Apollo` Adama)

== Bloopers ==

* During the scene on Caprica, Helo exclaims "for God Sakes" instead of the more Colonial "for Gods' Sakes" or Cylon "for God's Sake".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''In the Galactica's sickbay:''
*:Colonel Tigh: (to Commander Adama) You never should have brought me back into the service. If you had just let me be, I'd have died back there on Caprica along with everyone else, and been happier for it. I don't want a command. I never did. Don't you dare die on me now.

* ''During a flashback sequence:''
*:Saul Tigh: So, how'd you do it? How'd you get off this frakking freighter?
*:William Adama: Connections. Anne's father has a friend in the Defensive Committee.
*:Saul Tigh: So the new wife comes through for you. I wish I had in-laws with pull.
*:William Adama: Give me a couple years, and I'll have some pull. You watch me. I'll have my own Battlestar someday.

* ''In the Galactica's brig:''
*:President Laura Roslin: (to Tigh) Colonel, once we find the fleet, I'd like to have a word with you.
*:Colonel Tigh: There's nothing to talk about. You went up against the old man and you lost.

* ''Tigh's pep talk to the CIC crew:''
*: '''Tigh''': This is his command. His orders are still the word of the Gods on board this ship. Just so we're clear. This will be Adama's command until the day he dies. And we are not going to let him die. So say we all.

* ''On Caprica Sharon being "right":''
*: '''Starbuck''': She's right, huh? Sharon the Cylon is right. Let's all just listen to Sharon the Cylon. Do whatever she says. Because that's a good idea.
*: '''Helo''': Hey, Kara, she helped me get this far.
*: '''Starbuck''': OK. I get it. I get it, Helo. You and I go way back, so I get it. All right? I remember how you felt about her, but she is not the real Sharon. That is some cheap, knock-off copy.

* ''After Starbuck shoots at Caprica Sharon:''
*: '''Helo''': I'm not going to let you kill her. She's carrying my child.
*: '''Starbuck''': My Gods, men are so painfully stupid sometimes! How do you know that?
*: '''Helo''': I know, all right? She's not lying.
*: '''Starbuck''': They lie about ''everything'', Helo. Their entire existence is a ''lie''. They're not human, Helo, they're machines. You can't have a baby with a ''machine''.
*: '''Helo''': I don't know what to tell you, OK? But I believe her. It's hard to describe, we've been together for a long time. I mean, I know what she is, but she's not like the others! Look at me, she is not.

* ''Lee gives his word to Tigh regarding his parole:''
*: '''Lee''': All right, you have my parole. When I'm on duty, I will make no attempt to free her or sow insurrection among the crew. When I'm not on duty, I'll report back to this cell.
*: '''Tigh''': (matter-of-factly) Pre-flight brief is underway in the ready room.
*: '''Lee''': Right.

* ''Starbuck, upon the realization that Caprica Boomer has just stolen her Cylon Raider:''
*: '''Starbuck''': Bitch took my ride...

== Official Statements ==



* "We shot a scene where I’m in the brig, and [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] is trying to get in my face, and I’m all, 'Just shoot me now, you pussy.' It was great." -- [[Grace Park]], [http://scifi.about.com/od/bgsonscifi/a/parkinter2_2.htm]

* We've almost completed shooting the opening of Season Two, with [[Michael Rymer]] back at the helm filming a two-parter written by [[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]] called 'Scattered' and '[[Valley of Darkness]].' Things have been going well so far, with a good mood on the set and a feeling of satisfaction and pride running through the whole team at their accomplishments in year one and anticipation for year two." -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

=== From [[Podcast]] ===

* ''Regarding the bar room scenes (i.e. how [[Saul Tigh]] and [[William Adama]] met) that were filmed, but weren't fully utilized:''
*: "We were going to open this show, with just that scene, to show how the two men met. And then come into this scene we're watching now, where Tigh takes command of ''Galactica'', and Adama's been shot, and there's all this chaos. And the episode was going to continue to sort of flashback onto their relationship. On the early days of Tigh and Adama. [...] And we shot those sequences. And edited it together, and we looked at them, but ultimately we didn't like them. We just didn't feel -- they weren't quite the show. [...] You can't really put your finger on any particular person, except maybe me, because it is my concept. [...] I don't know if I created, or had the writers of this episode, [[Bradley Thompson]] and [[David Weddle]], I don't know if I really gave them a rich enough environment to tell that backstory. "
* ''On splitting the original "Scattered" into "Scattered" and "[[Valley of Darkness]]".''
*: "We've always struggled with the length of our scripts, the length of our episodes. If you look at it, there's only 40 minutes in change of actual program content. And our scripts tend to run, in the early drafts, in the 50s or low 50s. [...] 60 page scripts are not unheard of. An ideal page script for us, going into shooting, is usually around 46-47 pages. Sometimes we make that, sometimes we don't. [...] And I think we did on 'Scattered', I think in the final draft it was around 47-48 pages. The shows are still too huge. They're still too long. The style of storytelling -- I might have talked about this before -- just requires spending more time on character, creating moments, really, sort of, taking your time as you go through the show. [...] So we essentially divided it into two and created another action storyline for part two."

== Guest stars ==
[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] (CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] (SPL [[Cally]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1489668/ Leah Cairns] ([[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1382781/ Luciana Carro] ([[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1406239/ Warren Christie] ([[Tarn]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0647453/ Bodie Olmos] ([[Brendan Constanza|Hot Dog]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0648153/ Ty Olsson] ([[Aaron Kelly|CPT Aaron Kelly]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0654640/ Alonso Oyarzun] ([[Socinus]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0851898/ Michael Tayles] ([[Flyboy]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0894690/ Kate Vernon] ([[Ellen Tigh]]) Chris Shields (CPL [[Venner]]) Jennifer Halley ([[Seelix]]) Kerry Norton (Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]) Kurt Evans (Paramedic [[Howard Kim]]) Nicholas Treeshin (SGT Watkins) Aleks Paunovic (SGT [[Fischer]])

== Statistics ==


* USA [[Wikipedia:Nielsen Ratings|Nielsen Ratings]]: 3,053,000 viewers; 2.6 household rating

== External Links ==
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/201/ "Scattered"] at scifi.com

{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]] [[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]] [[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

[[es:Dispersos]]

Scattered

2006-04-04T20:22:50Z

UncleMikey: /* Analysis */

Scattered

2006-04-04T20:21:27Z

UncleMikey: /* Analysis */

{{Episode Data|
Image =[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|250px]]
| Title=Scattered
| Series=[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the Re-imagined Series]]
| Season=[[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode=1
| Guests=
| Writer=[[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=2.01 '''(Season 2.0 Premiere)'''
| Rating= 2.6
| US Airdate=July 15 2005
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=Dec 20 2005 (US Season 2.0)
| Population=47,875
| Prev=[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]
| Next=[[Valley of Darkness]]
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Chaos is rampant as paramedics try to save [[William Adama|Commander Adama]]'s life after he is shot, and the ''[[Galactica]]'' is separated from the fleet.''

: '''Note''': This is part one of a two-part episode. See the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]," for the conclusion.

== Summary ==

===On ''Galactica''===

*Moments after the shooting of [[William Adama|Adama]], a [[Cylon Basestar|basestar]] ambushes the Colonial fleet, prompting [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] to execute an emergency [[FTL]] jump procedure for the fleet to rendezvous at another point. After ''[[Galactica]]'' jumps, it finds itself stranded from the rest of the fleet, in the middle of nowhere.
*After being shot by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], Commander Adama is rushed to the ship's infirmary. As Dr. [[Cottle]] is not onboard, a team of [[Layne Ishay|medics]] work to stabilize Adama's condition.
*Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]] devises a plan to find the co-ordinates of the fleet: he networks the [[FTL]] computer to the Navigation, Damage Control, and Fire Control [[computers]] aboard ''Galactica'', so it will only take 10 minutes to compute the fleet's location. The only problem is that ''Galactica'' will have to jump back to [[Kobol]] to their last position, where the Cylons emerged, and keep both their fighters as well as the Cylon computer viruses at bay until the calculations are finished.
[[Image:201 02.jpg|thumb|Tigh brutalizes Valerii during her interrogation.]]
*[[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] visits the incarcerated Valerii, who insists she knows nothing about what's going on. She asks about Adama's condition.
*[[Lee Adama]] is given permission to leave the brig on a provisional basis by [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] and helps lead the squadron that will attack the basestar.
*Once ''Galactica'' jumps back to Kobol, the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]]s manage to hold off the oncoming waves of [[Cylon Raider]]s. A [[Heavy Raider]] makes it way towards ''Galactica''. It is shot down and crashes into the starboard [[flight pod]], depressuring it.
*Gaeta manages to calculate the fleet location, and ''Galactica'' jumps to meet them.
*The medics successfully stabilize [[William Adama|Adama]]'s condition, although he remains in serious condition.
*The crashed Heavy Raider seems completely destroyed as it lay on ''[[Galactica]]'s'' starboard flight deck, but multiple sets of red sensors soon light up from inside, and a group of [[Cylon Centurion]]s make their way out of the craft.

===On Caprica===

* In the [[Delphi Museum]], [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Kara Thrace]] meet after she recovers the [[Arrow of Apollo]]. Thrace attempts to shoot the [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii]].

* Helo stops Thrace and tells her that Valerii is pregnant. Kara refuses to accept it.
* After Kara's attempt to shoot Valerii, she escapes from the Delphi Museum's grounds in Kara's captured Cylon Raider. (Exclaims Starbuck: "Bitch took my ride.")

===On Kobol===

*On Kobol, the survivors of the Raptor crash escape into the forest to avoid the Cylons.
*With [[Socinus]] dying, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]], [[Cally]], and a crewmember named [[Tarn]] return to the crash site to retrieve a medkit. On their way back, the trio are ambushed by Cylons, and only Tyrol and Cally manage to escape.

== Summary from scifi.com ==

With Commander Adama fighting for his life after being shot by the Cylon infiltrator Sharon, and President Roslin languishing in the ''Galactica's'' brig after losing the power struggle with Adama, Colonel Tigh is thrust into the unfamiliar role of the sole leader in a time of crisis.

The situation worsens quickly. First, Tigh sends Lee to the brig for siding with Roslin against Commander Adama. Then an emergency jump to escape an incoming Cylon force goes wrong, leaving Galactica alone in space, separated from the rest of the fleet — and from the medical help needed to save Adama's life.

As Tigh struggles to come to terms with this crisis, he thinks back on his relationship with Adama, who saved him from oblivion and from his own fierce temper, and tries to tap into some of the wisdom that his old friend offered him.

It soon becomes clear that to reconnect with the fleet, ''Galactica'' must jump back into danger over Kobol and network its computers, a highly risky move that will make the ship vulnerable to attack from both the Cylon fighters and their crippling computer viruses.

Meanwhile, on the surface of Kobol, Chief Tyrol and the rest of the downed Raptor crew fight for their lives against an unseen enemy while Vice President Baltar seeks solace in his visions of Number Six, only to find those visions turn dark and haunting.

Light-years away, on Cylon-occupied Caprica, Kara and Helo must find some way to bring the Arrow of Apollo back to the fleet — but first they have to get it back from the avatar of Number Six who has found it in the Delphi Museum. 
--This section ©2005, [http://www.scifi.com SCI FI]. All rights reserved.

== Questions ==

* Does Tigh recall that [[Gaius Baltar]] first tested his [[Cylon detector]] on Valerii? Or did he know in the first place? ([[Resistance|Answer]])
* Regarding the firewall status display: What is not to say that the Cylons programmed the display, or more accurately the GUI interface for it, to show a false reading on their intrusion progress? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]] for related topic)
* Just how many aboard the ''Galactica'' agree with Adama's decision to jail Roslin?
* What is the significance of the number "3"? It is prominently shown on a door that a younger William Adama enters (in Colonel Tigh's flashbacks); when Lieutenant Gaeta arranges 3 bars of soap beside each other after washing his hands in the bathroom, and is also shown during the sequence with the firewall (that Lieutenant Gaeta devises to slow down the infiltration of the Galactica's network by Cylon forces), that has 4 levels of encryption, with 3 sub-encryption codes for each barrier.

== Analysis ==
*'''Visual evidence of the data security breach''': If you look really hard, the instant that Gaeta leans away from the status display to the floor to yank out the cable networking the computers (while he's not looking), the display does show that the last firewall was breached for a split second (probably why the Cylons weren't able to infiltrate a few but not all of Galactica's computers).
[[Image:Virus Scattered.JPG|thumb|The Cylon Virus breaches Gaeta's firewalls in the upper-left corner of picture ([[Scattered]]).]]

*'''Kelly as third-in-command''': In this episode, we discover that [[Aaron Kelly|Captain Aaron Kelly]] is third-in-command, but we haven't really seen that much of him since the [[Miniseries]] (although we see him doing his job as [[Landing Signal Officer]] in "[[Final Cut]]"), which makes this seem contrived. However, in the [[Miniseries]], Kelly gives Tyrol an order to aid the stricken port flight pod rescue after Tigh hesitates to give an order (himself following Adama's command to tend to the matter). Giving such an order with the second-in-command standing there is something only a third-in-command would have the guts or authorization to do. Tigh did countermand him moments later to order the venting of the pod, but did not suggest he was out-of-line for stepping in. This strongly suggests that Kelly already was third-in-command, either at the time of decommissioning or as a direct result of casualties taken in the attack.

*'''Time placement relative to "[[Valley of Darkness]]"''': Considering that Colonel Tigh is still sitting at Commander Adama's bedside as [[Valley of Darkness]] opens, and that the Vipers deployed in this episode have just arrived in the flight deck, and the pilots are getting out of their aircraft, it is plausible to assume that [[Valley of Darkness]] takes place either directly after the events of this episode, or at the most, a couple of hours.

*'''Starbord Flight Pod''': The starbord flight pod is significantly damaged in this episode. However, as RDM reminded us in audio commentary (podcast) for this episode, this landing pod - originally set up as a museum - is not in active use.

*'''The networked-computer vunerability''': Computers simply being networked is not a sufficient condition to allow foreign interference - why would any of the systems [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] linked be connected to [[wireless]] channels? Was the infiltration that he detected most likely originating from within ''[[Galactica]]''?

:No and yes. As with any other Colonial ship, ''Galactica'' receives data all the time from exterior sources. In addition to its mainframe computer, ''Galactica'' primary computers include the FTL, Navigation, Damage Control, and Fire Control systems. The mainframe ostensibly handles wireless communications (Note Caprica-Valerii's request for access to the mainframe with its communications channels in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]"). The mainframe probably ''did'' come under attack by the Cylon virus but was able to avoid infection because a Colonial mainframe may have been what the Colonials believed would be the central lynchpin in stopping any Cylon computer cracking.

:While the Colonial Fleet was lax in their computer defenses since the [[Cylon War]], they probably believed that a networked computer system would be acceptable provided that their battlestar's mainframe computer or a robust avionics package and programming would be able to block or stop any electronic incursion. That fact might have been true--where it not for the [[Command Navigation Program]], which gave the Cylons a backdoor to any Colonial flight computer system. Instead of ramming the main door (mainframe) down, the Cylons used the "window", entering through a lesser computer (or opening a hole in their network) to achieve the same effect. The CNP helped to bypass the defenses of the mainframe, where normal communications were probably screened and electronic attacks thwarted, to enter through another system.

:''Galactica's'' computers may have never been networked in her history before this episode. Her computers may also not be as robust as her sister battlestars. But her computers were designed to be networked or run separately since Gaeta was able to set up a network at all. It was very likely that the mainframe was part of Gaeta's ad hoc network since the other computers would not be able to gather any data from the mainframe's wireless communications. Once the connections were made, the other computers (all of which probably had less resistance or defenses to Cylon viruses) were likely more susceptible to infection than the mainframe as these computers could now "hear" the same things that the mainframe heard normally in its business (such as Cylon electronic attack sequences), but was far more able to thwart. The lesser computers became infected quickly. After a time, even the mainframe in whole or in part would be infected since the Cylon virus is remarkably adaptable and polymorphic, even turning later into a [[Logic bomb]] after learning and probing ''Galactica's'' hardware.

== Notes ==

*The second season introduced the practice of showing the current fleet population in the opening credits. Throughout this episode, that population is 47,875. That represents 12 total casualties since "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II".
* [[Socinus]]'s lungs are filling with fluid.
* Captain Kelly is now the third in the chain of command, after Tigh.
** '''Note:''' It is possible that Kelly is only third in command because of the malefactions of Apollo, and that, typically as fourth it is not a surprise that we have not seen him before. The sudden incapacity of two superiors has bumped him up the ladder. It is also worth noting that Doc Cottle holds the rank of Major, as stated in "[[Bastille Day]]", which would make him third in command, were it not for his absence from Galactica when Adama was shot.
** '''Note:''' Another possibility is that Dr. (Major) Cottle might not even be in "Galactica's Line of Sucession" at all (he is a medical officer, not a combat officer); in the United States military there are times when a lower ranking person will be in "Operational Command" of people who are technically higher in rank. For example, the United States Navy makes a distinction between Line Officers and Staff Officers. Line officers are those officers in general military specialties, and are eligible to command ships and other units. Staff Officers, however, are only permitted to command units within their specialty. Aboard ships, the senior Line Officer is in command, no matter the rank of any embarked Staff Officer.
* Adama and Tigh served on a merchant freighter together after leaving the military; Adama was responsible for bringing Tigh back into the military when he reentered.
* This episode marks the first (known) attempt at networking ''Galactica'''s computer systems, at least under William Adama's command.
* Tigh's distrust of Baltar seems evident in this episode, particularly in the reply he made to [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] regarding the trust he had in the Lieutenant's programming abilities over Baltar's.
* Tigh's wife has taken residence in Tigh's quarters.
* Starbuck seems to incorrectly assume that there is a "real" Sharon and that the Sharon on Caprica is just a copy of her.
* This episode introduces the first combat depiction of the Cylon [[Heavy Raider]], previously seen during [[Colonial Day]].
* This episode showed the first change in the intro sequence, including subtitles, a lack of the "episode clip" sequence, and the use of the theme music previously used only in the UK showings of the first season.
*Kerry Norton (Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]) is the wife of Jamie Bamber (Lee `Apollo` Adama)

== Bloopers ==

* During the scene on Caprica, Helo exclaims "for God Sakes" instead of the more Colonial "for Gods' Sakes" or Cylon "for God's Sake".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''In the Galactica's sickbay:''
*:Colonel Tigh: (to Commander Adama) You never should have brought me back into the service. If you had just let me be, I'd have died back there on Caprica along with everyone else, and been happier for it. I don't want a command. I never did. Don't you dare die on me now.

* ''During a flashback sequence:''
*:Saul Tigh: So, how'd you do it? How'd you get off this frakking freighter?
*:William Adama: Connections. Anne's father has a friend in the Defensive Committee.
*:Saul Tigh: So the new wife comes through for you. I wish I had in-laws with pull.
*:William Adama: Give me a couple years, and I'll have some pull. You watch me. I'll have my own Battlestar someday.

* ''In the Galactica's brig:''
*:President Laura Roslin: (to Tigh) Colonel, once we find the fleet, I'd like to have a word with you.
*:Colonel Tigh: There's nothing to talk about. You went up against the old man and you lost.

* ''Tigh's pep talk to the CIC crew:''
*: '''Tigh''': This is his command. His orders are still the word of the Gods on board this ship. Just so we're clear. This will be Adama's command until the day he dies. And we are not going to let him die. So say we all.

* ''On Caprica Sharon being "right":''
*: '''Starbuck''': She's right, huh? Sharon the Cylon is right. Let's all just listen to Sharon the Cylon. Do whatever she says. Because that's a good idea.
*: '''Helo''': Hey, Kara, she helped me get this far.
*: '''Starbuck''': OK. I get it. I get it, Helo. You and I go way back, so I get it. All right? I remember how you felt about her, but she is not the real Sharon. That is some cheap, knock-off copy.

* ''After Starbuck shoots at Caprica Sharon:''
*: '''Helo''': I'm not going to let you kill her. She's carrying my child.
*: '''Starbuck''': My Gods, men are so painfully stupid sometimes! How do you know that?
*: '''Helo''': I know, all right? She's not lying.
*: '''Starbuck''': They lie about ''everything'', Helo. Their entire existence is a ''lie''. They're not human, Helo, they're machines. You can't have a baby with a ''machine''.
*: '''Helo''': I don't know what to tell you, OK? But I believe her. It's hard to describe, we've been together for a long time. I mean, I know what she is, but she's not like the others! Look at me, she is not.

* ''Lee gives his word to Tigh regarding his parole:''
*: '''Lee''': All right, you have my parole. When I'm on duty, I will make no attempt to free her or sow insurrection among the crew. When I'm not on duty, I'll report back to this cell.
*: '''Tigh''': (matter-of-factly) Pre-flight brief is underway in the ready room.
*: '''Lee''': Right.

* ''Starbuck, upon the realization that Caprica Boomer has just stolen her Cylon Raider:''
*: '''Starbuck''': Bitch took my ride...

== Official Statements ==



* "We shot a scene where I’m in the brig, and [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] is trying to get in my face, and I’m all, 'Just shoot me now, you pussy.' It was great." -- [[Grace Park]], [http://scifi.about.com/od/bgsonscifi/a/parkinter2_2.htm]

* We've almost completed shooting the opening of Season Two, with [[Michael Rymer]] back at the helm filming a two-parter written by [[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]] called 'Scattered' and '[[Valley of Darkness]].' Things have been going well so far, with a good mood on the set and a feeling of satisfaction and pride running through the whole team at their accomplishments in year one and anticipation for year two." -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

=== From [[Podcast]] ===

* ''Regarding the bar room scenes (i.e. how [[Saul Tigh]] and [[William Adama]] met) that were filmed, but weren't fully utilized:''
*: "We were going to open this show, with just that scene, to show how the two men met. And then come into this scene we're watching now, where Tigh takes command of ''Galactica'', and Adama's been shot, and there's all this chaos. And the episode was going to continue to sort of flashback onto their relationship. On the early days of Tigh and Adama. [...] And we shot those sequences. And edited it together, and we looked at them, but ultimately we didn't like them. We just didn't feel -- they weren't quite the show. [...] You can't really put your finger on any particular person, except maybe me, because it is my concept. [...] I don't know if I created, or had the writers of this episode, [[Bradley Thompson]] and [[David Weddle]], I don't know if I really gave them a rich enough environment to tell that backstory. "
* ''On splitting the original "Scattered" into "Scattered" and "[[Valley of Darkness]]".''
*: "We've always struggled with the length of our scripts, the length of our episodes. If you look at it, there's only 40 minutes in change of actual program content. And our scripts tend to run, in the early drafts, in the 50s or low 50s. [...] 60 page scripts are not unheard of. An ideal page script for us, going into shooting, is usually around 46-47 pages. Sometimes we make that, sometimes we don't. [...] And I think we did on 'Scattered', I think in the final draft it was around 47-48 pages. The shows are still too huge. They're still too long. The style of storytelling -- I might have talked about this before -- just requires spending more time on character, creating moments, really, sort of, taking your time as you go through the show. [...] So we essentially divided it into two and created another action storyline for part two."

== Guest stars ==
[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] (CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] (SPL [[Cally]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1489668/ Leah Cairns] ([[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1382781/ Luciana Carro] ([[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1406239/ Warren Christie] ([[Tarn]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0647453/ Bodie Olmos] ([[Brendan Constanza|Hot Dog]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0648153/ Ty Olsson] ([[Aaron Kelly|CPT Aaron Kelly]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0654640/ Alonso Oyarzun] ([[Socinus]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0851898/ Michael Tayles] ([[Flyboy]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0894690/ Kate Vernon] ([[Ellen Tigh]]) Chris Shields (CPL [[Venner]]) Jennifer Halley ([[Seelix]]) Kerry Norton (Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]) Kurt Evans (Paramedic [[Howard Kim]]) Nicholas Treeshin (SGT Watkins) Aleks Paunovic (SGT [[Fischer]])

== Statistics ==


* USA [[Wikipedia:Nielsen Ratings|Nielsen Ratings]]: 3,053,000 viewers; 2.6 household rating

== External Links ==
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/201/ "Scattered"] at scifi.com

{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]] [[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]] [[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

[[es:Dispersos]]

Scattered

2006-04-04T20:20:48Z

UncleMikey: /* Questions and Analysis */ Cleanup. Trying a new format in Analysis to make it visually easier to pick out topics. Comments welcome.

{{Episode Data|
Image =[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|250px]]
| Title=Scattered
| Series=[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the Re-imagined Series]]
| Season=[[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode=1
| Guests=
| Writer=[[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=2.01 '''(Season 2.0 Premiere)'''
| Rating= 2.6
| US Airdate=July 15 2005
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=Dec 20 2005 (US Season 2.0)
| Population=47,875
| Prev=[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]
| Next=[[Valley of Darkness]]
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Chaos is rampant as paramedics try to save [[William Adama|Commander Adama]]'s life after he is shot, and the ''[[Galactica]]'' is separated from the fleet.''

: '''Note''': This is part one of a two-part episode. See the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]," for the conclusion.

== Summary ==

===On ''Galactica''===

*Moments after the shooting of [[William Adama|Adama]], a [[Cylon Basestar|basestar]] ambushes the Colonial fleet, prompting [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] to execute an emergency [[FTL]] jump procedure for the fleet to rendezvous at another point. After ''[[Galactica]]'' jumps, it finds itself stranded from the rest of the fleet, in the middle of nowhere.
*After being shot by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], Commander Adama is rushed to the ship's infirmary. As Dr. [[Cottle]] is not onboard, a team of [[Layne Ishay|medics]] work to stabilize Adama's condition.
*Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]] devises a plan to find the co-ordinates of the fleet: he networks the [[FTL]] computer to the Navigation, Damage Control, and Fire Control [[computers]] aboard ''Galactica'', so it will only take 10 minutes to compute the fleet's location. The only problem is that ''Galactica'' will have to jump back to [[Kobol]] to their last position, where the Cylons emerged, and keep both their fighters as well as the Cylon computer viruses at bay until the calculations are finished.
[[Image:201 02.jpg|thumb|Tigh brutalizes Valerii during her interrogation.]]
*[[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] visits the incarcerated Valerii, who insists she knows nothing about what's going on. She asks about Adama's condition.
*[[Lee Adama]] is given permission to leave the brig on a provisional basis by [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] and helps lead the squadron that will attack the basestar.
*Once ''Galactica'' jumps back to Kobol, the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]]s manage to hold off the oncoming waves of [[Cylon Raider]]s. A [[Heavy Raider]] makes it way towards ''Galactica''. It is shot down and crashes into the starboard [[flight pod]], depressuring it.
*Gaeta manages to calculate the fleet location, and ''Galactica'' jumps to meet them.
*The medics successfully stabilize [[William Adama|Adama]]'s condition, although he remains in serious condition.
*The crashed Heavy Raider seems completely destroyed as it lay on ''[[Galactica]]'s'' starboard flight deck, but multiple sets of red sensors soon light up from inside, and a group of [[Cylon Centurion]]s make their way out of the craft.

===On Caprica===

* In the [[Delphi Museum]], [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Kara Thrace]] meet after she recovers the [[Arrow of Apollo]]. Thrace attempts to shoot the [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii]].

* Helo stops Thrace and tells her that Valerii is pregnant. Kara refuses to accept it.
* After Kara's attempt to shoot Valerii, she escapes from the Delphi Museum's grounds in Kara's captured Cylon Raider. (Exclaims Starbuck: "Bitch took my ride.")

===On Kobol===

*On Kobol, the survivors of the Raptor crash escape into the forest to avoid the Cylons.
*With [[Socinus]] dying, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]], [[Cally]], and a crewmember named [[Tarn]] return to the crash site to retrieve a medkit. On their way back, the trio are ambushed by Cylons, and only Tyrol and Cally manage to escape.

== Summary from scifi.com ==

With Commander Adama fighting for his life after being shot by the Cylon infiltrator Sharon, and President Roslin languishing in the ''Galactica's'' brig after losing the power struggle with Adama, Colonel Tigh is thrust into the unfamiliar role of the sole leader in a time of crisis.

The situation worsens quickly. First, Tigh sends Lee to the brig for siding with Roslin against Commander Adama. Then an emergency jump to escape an incoming Cylon force goes wrong, leaving Galactica alone in space, separated from the rest of the fleet — and from the medical help needed to save Adama's life.

As Tigh struggles to come to terms with this crisis, he thinks back on his relationship with Adama, who saved him from oblivion and from his own fierce temper, and tries to tap into some of the wisdom that his old friend offered him.

It soon becomes clear that to reconnect with the fleet, ''Galactica'' must jump back into danger over Kobol and network its computers, a highly risky move that will make the ship vulnerable to attack from both the Cylon fighters and their crippling computer viruses.

Meanwhile, on the surface of Kobol, Chief Tyrol and the rest of the downed Raptor crew fight for their lives against an unseen enemy while Vice President Baltar seeks solace in his visions of Number Six, only to find those visions turn dark and haunting.

Light-years away, on Cylon-occupied Caprica, Kara and Helo must find some way to bring the Arrow of Apollo back to the fleet — but first they have to get it back from the avatar of Number Six who has found it in the Delphi Museum. 
--This section ©2005, [http://www.scifi.com SCI FI]. All rights reserved.

== Questions ==

* Does Tigh recall that [[Gaius Baltar]] first tested his [[Cylon detector]] on Valerii? Or did he know in the first place? ([[Resistance|Answer]])
* Regarding the firewall status display: What is not to say that the Cylons programmed the display, or more accurately the GUI interface for it, to show a false reading on their intrusion progress? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]] for related topic)
* Just how many aboard the ''Galactica'' agree with Adama's decision to jail Roslin?
* What is the significance of the number "3"? It is prominently shown on a door that a younger William Adama enters (in Colonel Tigh's flashbacks); when Lieutenant Gaeta arranges 3 bars of soap beside each other after washing his hands in the bathroom, and is also shown during the sequence with the firewall (that Lieutenant Gaeta devises to slow down the infiltration of the Galactica's network by Cylon forces), that has 4 levels of encryption, with 3 sub-encryption codes for each barrier.

== Analysis ==
*'''Visual evidence of the data security breach''': If you look really hard, the instant that Gaeta leans away from the status display to the floor to yank out the cable networking the computers (while he's not looking), the display does show that the last firewall was breached for a split second (probably why the Cylons weren't able to infiltrate a few but not all of Galactica's computers).
[[Image:Virus Scattered.JPG|thumb|The Cylon Virus breaches Gaeta's firewalls in the upper-left corner of picture ([[Scattered]]).]]

*'''Kelly as third-in-command''': In this episode, we discover that [[Aaron Kelly|Captain Aaron Kelly]] is third-in-command, but we haven't really seen that much of him since the [[Miniseries]] (although we see him doing his job as [[Landing Signals Officer]] in "[[Final Cut]]"), which makes this seem contrived. However, in the [[Miniseries]], Kelly gives Tyrol an order to aid the stricken port flight pod rescue after Tigh hesitates to give an order (himself following Adama's command to tend to the matter). Giving such an order with the second-in-command standing there is something only a third-in-command would have the guts or authorization to do. Tigh did countermand him moments later to order the venting of the pod, but did not suggest he was out-of-line for stepping in. This strongly suggests that Kelly already was third-in-command, either at the time of decommissioning or as a direct result of casualties taken in the attack.

*'''Time placement relative to "[[Valley of Darkness]]"''': Considering that Colonel Tigh is still sitting at Commander Adama's bedside as [[Valley of Darkness]] opens, and that the Vipers deployed in this episode have just arrived in the flight deck, and the pilots are getting out of their aircraft, it is plausible to assume that [[Valley of Darkness]] takes place either directly after the events of this episode, or at the most, a couple of hours.

*'''Starbord Flight Pod''': The starbord flight pod is significantly damaged in this episode. However, as RDM reminded us in audio commentary (podcast) for this episode, this landing pod - originally set up as a museum - is not in active use.

*'''The networked-computer vunerability''': Computers simply being networked is not a sufficient condition to allow foreign interference - why would any of the systems [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] linked be connected to [[wireless]] channels? Was the infiltration that he detected most likely originating from within ''[[Galactica]]''?

:No and yes. As with any other Colonial ship, ''Galactica'' receives data all the time from exterior sources. In addition to its mainframe computer, ''Galactica'' primary computers include the FTL, Navigation, Damage Control, and Fire Control systems. The mainframe ostensibly handles wireless communications (Note Caprica-Valerii's request for access to the mainframe with its communications channels in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]"). The mainframe probably ''did'' come under attack by the Cylon virus but was able to avoid infection because a Colonial mainframe may have been what the Colonials believed would be the central lynchpin in stopping any Cylon computer cracking.

:While the Colonial Fleet was lax in their computer defenses since the [[Cylon War]], they probably believed that a networked computer system would be acceptable provided that their battlestar's mainframe computer or a robust avionics package and programming would be able to block or stop any electronic incursion. That fact might have been true--where it not for the [[Command Navigation Program]], which gave the Cylons a backdoor to any Colonial flight computer system. Instead of ramming the main door (mainframe) down, the Cylons used the "window", entering through a lesser computer (or opening a hole in their network) to achieve the same effect. The CNP helped to bypass the defenses of the mainframe, where normal communications were probably screened and electronic attacks thwarted, to enter through another system.

:''Galactica's'' computers may have never been networked in her history before this episode. Her computers may also not be as robust as her sister battlestars. But her computers were designed to be networked or run separately since Gaeta was able to set up a network at all. It was very likely that the mainframe was part of Gaeta's ad hoc network since the other computers would not be able to gather any data from the mainframe's wireless communications. Once the connections were made, the other computers (all of which probably had less resistance or defenses to Cylon viruses) were likely more susceptible to infection than the mainframe as these computers could now "hear" the same things that the mainframe heard normally in its business (such as Cylon electronic attack sequences), but was far more able to thwart. The lesser computers became infected quickly. After a time, even the mainframe in whole or in part would be infected since the Cylon virus is remarkably adaptable and polymorphic, even turning later into a [[Logic bomb]] after learning and probing ''Galactica's'' hardware.

== Notes ==

*The second season introduced the practice of showing the current fleet population in the opening credits. Throughout this episode, that population is 47,875. That represents 12 total casualties since "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II".
* [[Socinus]]'s lungs are filling with fluid.
* Captain Kelly is now the third in the chain of command, after Tigh.
** '''Note:''' It is possible that Kelly is only third in command because of the malefactions of Apollo, and that, typically as fourth it is not a surprise that we have not seen him before. The sudden incapacity of two superiors has bumped him up the ladder. It is also worth noting that Doc Cottle holds the rank of Major, as stated in "[[Bastille Day]]", which would make him third in command, were it not for his absence from Galactica when Adama was shot.
** '''Note:''' Another possibility is that Dr. (Major) Cottle might not even be in "Galactica's Line of Sucession" at all (he is a medical officer, not a combat officer); in the United States military there are times when a lower ranking person will be in "Operational Command" of people who are technically higher in rank. For example, the United States Navy makes a distinction between Line Officers and Staff Officers. Line officers are those officers in general military specialties, and are eligible to command ships and other units. Staff Officers, however, are only permitted to command units within their specialty. Aboard ships, the senior Line Officer is in command, no matter the rank of any embarked Staff Officer.
* Adama and Tigh served on a merchant freighter together after leaving the military; Adama was responsible for bringing Tigh back into the military when he reentered.
* This episode marks the first (known) attempt at networking ''Galactica'''s computer systems, at least under William Adama's command.
* Tigh's distrust of Baltar seems evident in this episode, particularly in the reply he made to [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] regarding the trust he had in the Lieutenant's programming abilities over Baltar's.
* Tigh's wife has taken residence in Tigh's quarters.
* Starbuck seems to incorrectly assume that there is a "real" Sharon and that the Sharon on Caprica is just a copy of her.
* This episode introduces the first combat depiction of the Cylon [[Heavy Raider]], previously seen during [[Colonial Day]].
* This episode showed the first change in the intro sequence, including subtitles, a lack of the "episode clip" sequence, and the use of the theme music previously used only in the UK showings of the first season.
*Kerry Norton (Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]) is the wife of Jamie Bamber (Lee `Apollo` Adama)

== Bloopers ==

* During the scene on Caprica, Helo exclaims "for God Sakes" instead of the more Colonial "for Gods' Sakes" or Cylon "for God's Sake".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''In the Galactica's sickbay:''
*:Colonel Tigh: (to Commander Adama) You never should have brought me back into the service. If you had just let me be, I'd have died back there on Caprica along with everyone else, and been happier for it. I don't want a command. I never did. Don't you dare die on me now.

* ''During a flashback sequence:''
*:Saul Tigh: So, how'd you do it? How'd you get off this frakking freighter?
*:William Adama: Connections. Anne's father has a friend in the Defensive Committee.
*:Saul Tigh: So the new wife comes through for you. I wish I had in-laws with pull.
*:William Adama: Give me a couple years, and I'll have some pull. You watch me. I'll have my own Battlestar someday.

* ''In the Galactica's brig:''
*:President Laura Roslin: (to Tigh) Colonel, once we find the fleet, I'd like to have a word with you.
*:Colonel Tigh: There's nothing to talk about. You went up against the old man and you lost.

* ''Tigh's pep talk to the CIC crew:''
*: '''Tigh''': This is his command. His orders are still the word of the Gods on board this ship. Just so we're clear. This will be Adama's command until the day he dies. And we are not going to let him die. So say we all.

* ''On Caprica Sharon being "right":''
*: '''Starbuck''': She's right, huh? Sharon the Cylon is right. Let's all just listen to Sharon the Cylon. Do whatever she says. Because that's a good idea.
*: '''Helo''': Hey, Kara, she helped me get this far.
*: '''Starbuck''': OK. I get it. I get it, Helo. You and I go way back, so I get it. All right? I remember how you felt about her, but she is not the real Sharon. That is some cheap, knock-off copy.

* ''After Starbuck shoots at Caprica Sharon:''
*: '''Helo''': I'm not going to let you kill her. She's carrying my child.
*: '''Starbuck''': My Gods, men are so painfully stupid sometimes! How do you know that?
*: '''Helo''': I know, all right? She's not lying.
*: '''Starbuck''': They lie about ''everything'', Helo. Their entire existence is a ''lie''. They're not human, Helo, they're machines. You can't have a baby with a ''machine''.
*: '''Helo''': I don't know what to tell you, OK? But I believe her. It's hard to describe, we've been together for a long time. I mean, I know what she is, but she's not like the others! Look at me, she is not.

* ''Lee gives his word to Tigh regarding his parole:''
*: '''Lee''': All right, you have my parole. When I'm on duty, I will make no attempt to free her or sow insurrection among the crew. When I'm not on duty, I'll report back to this cell.
*: '''Tigh''': (matter-of-factly) Pre-flight brief is underway in the ready room.
*: '''Lee''': Right.

* ''Starbuck, upon the realization that Caprica Boomer has just stolen her Cylon Raider:''
*: '''Starbuck''': Bitch took my ride...

== Official Statements ==



* "We shot a scene where I’m in the brig, and [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] is trying to get in my face, and I’m all, 'Just shoot me now, you pussy.' It was great." -- [[Grace Park]], [http://scifi.about.com/od/bgsonscifi/a/parkinter2_2.htm]

* We've almost completed shooting the opening of Season Two, with [[Michael Rymer]] back at the helm filming a two-parter written by [[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]] called 'Scattered' and '[[Valley of Darkness]].' Things have been going well so far, with a good mood on the set and a feeling of satisfaction and pride running through the whole team at their accomplishments in year one and anticipation for year two." -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

=== From [[Podcast]] ===

* ''Regarding the bar room scenes (i.e. how [[Saul Tigh]] and [[William Adama]] met) that were filmed, but weren't fully utilized:''
*: "We were going to open this show, with just that scene, to show how the two men met. And then come into this scene we're watching now, where Tigh takes command of ''Galactica'', and Adama's been shot, and there's all this chaos. And the episode was going to continue to sort of flashback onto their relationship. On the early days of Tigh and Adama. [...] And we shot those sequences. And edited it together, and we looked at them, but ultimately we didn't like them. We just didn't feel -- they weren't quite the show. [...] You can't really put your finger on any particular person, except maybe me, because it is my concept. [...] I don't know if I created, or had the writers of this episode, [[Bradley Thompson]] and [[David Weddle]], I don't know if I really gave them a rich enough environment to tell that backstory. "
* ''On splitting the original "Scattered" into "Scattered" and "[[Valley of Darkness]]".''
*: "We've always struggled with the length of our scripts, the length of our episodes. If you look at it, there's only 40 minutes in change of actual program content. And our scripts tend to run, in the early drafts, in the 50s or low 50s. [...] 60 page scripts are not unheard of. An ideal page script for us, going into shooting, is usually around 46-47 pages. Sometimes we make that, sometimes we don't. [...] And I think we did on 'Scattered', I think in the final draft it was around 47-48 pages. The shows are still too huge. They're still too long. The style of storytelling -- I might have talked about this before -- just requires spending more time on character, creating moments, really, sort of, taking your time as you go through the show. [...] So we essentially divided it into two and created another action storyline for part two."

== Guest stars ==
[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] (CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] (SPL [[Cally]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1489668/ Leah Cairns] ([[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1382781/ Luciana Carro] ([[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1406239/ Warren Christie] ([[Tarn]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0647453/ Bodie Olmos] ([[Brendan Constanza|Hot Dog]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0648153/ Ty Olsson] ([[Aaron Kelly|CPT Aaron Kelly]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0654640/ Alonso Oyarzun] ([[Socinus]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0851898/ Michael Tayles] ([[Flyboy]]) [http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0894690/ Kate Vernon] ([[Ellen Tigh]]) Chris Shields (CPL [[Venner]]) Jennifer Halley ([[Seelix]]) Kerry Norton (Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]) Kurt Evans (Paramedic [[Howard Kim]]) Nicholas Treeshin (SGT Watkins) Aleks Paunovic (SGT [[Fischer]])

== Statistics ==


* USA [[Wikipedia:Nielsen Ratings|Nielsen Ratings]]: 3,053,000 viewers; 2.6 household rating

== External Links ==
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/201/ "Scattered"] at scifi.com

{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]] [[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]] [[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

[[es:Dispersos]]

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-04-04T19:27:11Z

UncleMikey: /* The Great Questions Section Attack... */

Nobody talks about me :-)

: Not on your talk page anyway. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:01, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:: Aigh!! Conspiracy! Paranoia! They're all out to get me!
:: Wait...there's nothing new about that. Never mind :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 18:13, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Umm... maybe Mikey was the one who talked with 6 on the planet right before it was nuked.. Never thought about that before. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:16, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: I deny everything. I have an alibi. I was hangin' with my buddy Aaron D. at the time...oh...wait...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:31, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::::: I have recieved footage from a [[D'anna Biers|trusted source in the media]] that says otherwise [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 15:37, 23 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: ROFL! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:49, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== The Great Questions Section Attack... ==

...will resume shortly. My attention has been elsewhere this last week or so. :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:52, 2 April 2006 (CDT)

:As has mine. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:54, 2 April 2006 (CDT)

::Clueless new girl can't help but wonder what a "Great Questions Section Attack" might entail. Sounds painful. --[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]]

::: The "Questions" Section on many of the episodic pages has gotten overgrown. It's frequently used by readers to ask questions of the community -- the way one might in a forum -- and thus especially more recent episodes (which have not already been cleaned up) get filled with questions and answers, and reubttals to answers, and rejoinders to rebuttals, and snark about what a dumb rebuttal that was, and so on. :-)

::: But that's not really what the section is for. The section is to describe the questions the episode itself raises but leaves unanswered, the dangling threads we hope will get tied off by later episodes. [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]] now has a section describing the criteria we're trying to apply to these sections. So far, only two eps ("Lay Down Your Burdens" I and II) have had this particular chain-saw taken to them. I'm hoping to get some time this week to get back to it.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:27, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-04-02T16:52:33Z

UncleMikey: The Great Questions Section Attack...

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-29T22:16:51Z

UncleMikey: /* Design Improvements */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

==Design Improvements==
Just a few minor design improvements.
*1. On the image pages the mime/type text is white font on white background. The text of this or background box colour should be changed in the css to be black. http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4151/bsgdesignimprovements11xv.png
*2. The tiny little logon man perhaps changed to something more relevant, bgs logo or viper insignia http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2377/bsgdesignimprovements27up.png
*3. Redirect image should be inverted, this is how it look right now http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1546/bsgdesignimprovements30lv.png
* [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:13, 29 March 2006 (CST)

: When considering design changes, please keep in mind that not everyone reads the site using the default theme. I, for one, find the black background with bright text extraordinarily hard -- downright painful -- on the eyes, particularly in contrast with just about every other program and web site I use. I'm using the straight Monobook theme in my preferences. As a result, there are already some boxes that are all but unreadable unless I highlight the text in them.
: (Ironically, I used to feel just the opposite, but the predominance of white-background websites and GUIs has shifted my preferences. It's easier to go with the flow than to find ways to change every single GUI system I use). --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:20, 29 March 2006 (CST)
::Would it help on the boxes if we specified the white foreground? Granted, this would go against the rest of the text on the page, but I'd think that it'd make it look closer to how it is intended. However, you still have the blue links (unless that can be specified as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:12, 29 March 2006 (CST)
:::Might help. It seems to me that there ought to be some way to make sure that template boxes &c integrate with the theme (using style-sheet names for things, &c), but I haven't messed enough with Mediawiki themes to know exactly how you'd do it portably.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:16, 29 March 2006 (CST)

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:I posted up something in [[Battlestar_Wiki:Bots]]. I am currenly going over a bot's code to make sure all the changed that would be needed are done. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:19, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::Make "Task Bot" with the bot flag. :) Getting it all setup with the cookies it needs on my end. Also sent you an e-mail on setup procedures. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:12, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Ack, sorry about that. Alien bimbos took my brain, since they lost Spock's. (As you can see, it has been returned.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:58, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Alien bimbo brain thieves happen :-) When the wiki is ready for customers, I'll post the link in my user page :-) Thanks for the help!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:45, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Shane's Departure==
I received the following in private comunication from Shane this morning:
:10:03:38 AM shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com: I have left the wiki because of your comments with merv about the RFC. You knew that was not an approved way, and Joe had already said so. So say we all.
:shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com disconnected (10:03:51 AM)

The comments he referred to can be found [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Succession Boxes|here]]. I am unaware of any comments by you to that effect, but felt that I should bring the matter to your attention in the event that I overlooked something. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: I might have missed something as well... because I don't recall ruling one way or the other. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:20, 27 March 2006 (CST)

:: You didn't. Shane is overreacting. There's far too much drama on both sides of this particular tiff, but Shane is overreacting badly, here.
:: Peter, for what it's worth, I don't see anything '''you've''' done that would constitute a reason someone should leave. Perhaps Shane was expecting more "protection" from what he saw as an unjust series of personal attacks, but I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation '''anywhere''' on the 'Net, let alone in a loosely-moderated universe such as this.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 27 March 2006 (CST)

::: You are indeed correct, UncleMikey, when it comes to the drama on both sides of this issue. Both sides are at fault. I believe that it would be best if both sides shed the negativity, take a deep breath, and start anew from the same page, as it were. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: On second thought, I believe he thinks that the RFC process is something that I had apparently not approved of. (Quite contrary, seeing as I imported it from the English Wikipedia to deal with future issues, should they arise.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:27, 27 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-29T16:20:02Z

UncleMikey: /* Design Improvements */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

==Design Improvements==
Just a few minor design improvements.
*1. On the image pages the mime/type text is white font on white background. The text of this or background box colour should be changed in the css to be black. http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4151/bsgdesignimprovements11xv.png
*2. The tiny little logon man perhaps changed to something more relevant, bgs logo or viper insignia http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2377/bsgdesignimprovements27up.png
*3. Redirect image should be inverted, this is how it look right now http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1546/bsgdesignimprovements30lv.png
* [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:13, 29 March 2006 (CST)

: When considering design changes, please keep in mind that not everyone reads the site using the default theme. I, for one, find the black background with bright text extraordinarily hard -- downright painful -- on the eyes, particularly in contrast with just about every other program and web site I use. I'm using the straight Monobook theme in my preferences. As a result, there are already some boxes that are all but unreadable unless I highlight the text in them.
: (Ironically, I used to feel just the opposite, but the predominance of white-background websites and GUIs has shifted my preferences. It's easier to go with the flow than to find ways to change every single GUI system I use). --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:20, 29 March 2006 (CST)

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:I posted up something in [[Battlestar_Wiki:Bots]]. I am currenly going over a bot's code to make sure all the changed that would be needed are done. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:19, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::Make "Task Bot" with the bot flag. :) Getting it all setup with the cookies it needs on my end. Also sent you an e-mail on setup procedures. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:12, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Ack, sorry about that. Alien bimbos took my brain, since they lost Spock's. (As you can see, it has been returned.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:58, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Alien bimbo brain thieves happen :-) When the wiki is ready for customers, I'll post the link in my user page :-) Thanks for the help!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:45, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Shane's Departure==
I received the following in private comunication from Shane this morning:
:10:03:38 AM shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com: I have left the wiki because of your comments with merv about the RFC. You knew that was not an approved way, and Joe had already said so. So say we all.
:shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com disconnected (10:03:51 AM)

The comments he referred to can be found [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Succession Boxes|here]]. I am unaware of any comments by you to that effect, but felt that I should bring the matter to your attention in the event that I overlooked something. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: I might have missed something as well... because I don't recall ruling one way or the other. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:20, 27 March 2006 (CST)

:: You didn't. Shane is overreacting. There's far too much drama on both sides of this particular tiff, but Shane is overreacting badly, here.
:: Peter, for what it's worth, I don't see anything '''you've''' done that would constitute a reason someone should leave. Perhaps Shane was expecting more "protection" from what he saw as an unjust series of personal attacks, but I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation '''anywhere''' on the 'Net, let alone in a loosely-moderated universe such as this.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 27 March 2006 (CST)

::: You are indeed correct, UncleMikey, when it comes to the drama on both sides of this issue. Both sides are at fault. I believe that it would be best if both sides shed the negativity, take a deep breath, and start anew from the same page, as it were. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: On second thought, I believe he thinks that the RFC process is something that I had apparently not approved of. (Quite contrary, seeing as I imported it from the English Wikipedia to deal with future issues, should they arise.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:27, 27 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-27T16:25:03Z

UncleMikey: /* Shane's Departure */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:I posted up something in [[Battlestar_Wiki:Bots]]. I am currenly going over a bot's code to make sure all the changed that would be needed are done. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:19, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::Make "Task Bot" with the bot flag. :) Getting it all setup with the cookies it needs on my end. Also sent you an e-mail on setup procedures. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:12, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Ack, sorry about that. Alien bimbos took my brain, since they lost Spock's. (As you can see, it has been returned.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:58, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Alien bimbo brain thieves happen :-) When the wiki is ready for customers, I'll post the link in my user page :-) Thanks for the help!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:45, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Shane's Departure==
I received the following in private comunication from Shane this morning:
:10:03:38 AM shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com: I have left the wiki because of your comments with merv about the RFC. You knew that was not an approved way, and Joe had already said so. So say we all.
:shane.WITHHELD@gmail.com disconnected (10:03:51 AM)

The comments he referred to can be found [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Succession Boxes|here]]. I am unaware of any comments by you to that effect, but felt that I should bring the matter to your attention in the event that I overlooked something. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:07, 27 March 2006 (CST)

: I might have missed something as well... because I don't recall ruling one way or the other. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:20, 27 March 2006 (CST)

:: You didn't. Shane is overreacting. There's far too much drama on both sides of this particular tiff, but Shane is overreacting badly, here.
:: Peter, for what it's worth, I don't see anything '''you've''' done that would constitute a reason someone should leave. Perhaps Shane was expecting more "protection" from what he saw as an unjust series of personal attacks, but I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation '''anywhere''' on the 'Net, let alone in a loosely-moderated universe such as this.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 27 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2006-03-27T03:43:38Z

UncleMikey: /* Analysis is ''not'' limited to episode guides... */

We should add some more specific examples of what the hallucinations have done. A picture of Internal-Baltar with Six would also be good.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:48, 14 March 2006 (EST)

Aside from marking the page as primarily speculative, I agree this page should stay. This is one of the things that people immediately notice when watching this series, and therefore deserves a place here. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 01:02, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== "Most likely" ==

The article suggests that Six is "most likely" an actual, downloaded personality on a chip in his head. I disagree with this, in part because RDM himself has stated otherwise in his podcasts, but also because I think they've been very careful, for the most part, to leave the question balanced. Gaius Baltar is a genius. If Internal-Six is an hallucination, then he's officially a mad genius, but he's a genius, nonetheless. Almost all of his insights into Cylon motives, actions, and character can be explained simply by his being a genius with multiple personality disorder.

And example, from the miniseries: Six points out the device (later revealed to be a kind of transponder) on the underside of the DRADIS console. Baltar (like Gaeta, who admitted having seen it) has undoubtedly seen this device out of the corner of his eye the whole time he's been in CIC, and it is pretty obviously out of place with the rest of the ship's tech. A "normal" person would either ignore it (as Gaeta did, thinking it was part of the transformation of the ship into a museum) or start speculating silently to themselves what it might be and how it got there. The difference is that Baltar now has a dissociative personality that closely resembles his Cylon lover to talk these things through. Everything he knows or speculates that's related to the Cylons now comes from this split personality, because he's desperately trying to evade his own complicity.

In short, it's just as likely (if not more) that Baltar diagnosed himself correctly from the beginning. He's basically gone mad. And since he's not being treated, he will undoubtedly get worse before he gets better.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:Clarified.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 14 March 2006 (EST)

:I think this page is redundant and should be removed.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:56, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::Why? It discusses both Internal-Six and Internal-Baltar, who constitute a single phenomenon or two closely related phenomena, so it doesn't belong under either Number Six or Gaius Baltar. All the information from the Internal-Six section of the Six article has been removed and put here. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:26, 14 March (EST)
:::I disagree with Merv that it's redundant, but I do think a lot of it is speculative. We've been tightening the standards on speculation in episode articles, but I'm not certain what the standard is outside them.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:12, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::Since little concrete is known about the hallucinations the page about them is of course full of speculation, but they're too important not to have a page. The changes in prevailing theories as new evidence airs is noted. I agree that episode articles should not be speculative. Also, most of this content was already on this site, it has merely been moved to this more appropriate page.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:46, 14 March 2006 (EST)
:::::A fair point, and I'm not even sure I would have noticed the speculative aspects as worthy of mention until yesterday, when the policy for "Questions" in episode articles shifted. Now, tho', I'm sensitive to the question of which articles should be strictly encyclopedic and which can and should be more speculative. I'm not saying I'm certain this article should be heavily edited to strip out speculation. I'm saying I'm not certain either way.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:28, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It sounds like Uncle Mikey might be ripe for [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|recruitment]]. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::Thou shalt not make a machine mind in the image of a human mind. Oh, wait, that's the '''Butlerian''' Jihad... :-D --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Nonetheless, there are only two instances of this. Further, Baltar was definately a hallucination by Caprica-Six, clean and simple. Meanwhile, we still don't know what virtual Six is, but that goes on her own page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:43, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:How so? Is it just a coincidence that she has an inner Baltar and he has an inner Six? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 06:06, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:Further, and this is my biggest arguement against this (practicality): most of the information here is actually cut and pasted from other arguements. The entire last paragraph is just taken from the virtual Six article.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::I don't necessarily see that as an argument to eliminate this article. Having a single article that consolidates information about a particular topic is not a bad thing, and this topic is certainly one of wide interest.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

::Mikey you've only got two "hallucinations". It is hard to consolidate ''two'' things. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:38, 15 March 2006 (CST)

This article is useful, and is not redundant in the least. It is speaking of a particular occurence of a character, which plays an important role and appears to be separate from all other instances of Number Six. It is silly to say that it is mere coincidence that both Baltar and Six are having hallucinations of each other, so it is a topic that should have a page listing information on each sighting of the hallucinations. After all, we have articles about marines who only have their names mentioned...considering the importance of virtual Six and virtual Baltar in influencing events, I think they more than qualify in importance in having their own article. As for the speculation, I would argue that an article about something that is as confusing as this will have a fair amount of speculation, until later episodes clear things up (if they ever do). I see nothing wrong with paragraphs beginning, "Thus far, it appears..." --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 19:48, 17 March 2006 (CST)
: I am seeing no problems with this page. It works! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:10, 19 March 2006 (CST)

This page is extremely important. It is the only category in which Internal Six and Baltar (one of which is extremely important to the entire story) and all the hallucinations brought by six can fit. They don't fit anywhere else and to delete the page is to simply through these two and their "special effects" away. They are the reason behind everything that is going on. Face it, they are basically gods in the show, shaping the decisions of both sides. I wouldn't be surprise if they did indeed turn up being a part of the Cylon God. My point is, it is important to differentiate them from normal Baltar or any Six, they are not Cylons or humans, they are manipulative Hallucinations that have shaped things in their image. Arguing that they are only two is unfair, hallucinations refers to the entire set of hallucinations, the whole topic of mental six and mental baltar and basically the whole Six-Baltar story line. Its even more important to the story than one of the main characters like Thrace. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20 March

No. In the podcasts RDM stated that the Baltar hallucination was just a hallucination, while they have been consistently ambiguous on ChipSix. Meanwhile, you even ''used'' the phrase "delete the thread"--->this is not a ''forum''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:That was a mistake. No point in making attacks on a simple error, they don't really help. And RDM did not say Batlar was "just a hallucination", he said he was a hallucination, but then we already knew that, both are, by definition, hallucinations, whether aided by a foreign device or not. You interpreted to mean that baltar six was absolutley nothing more than madness. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19 March 2006
::In this one The Merovingian, you are out numbered. There are more people here and '''you''' are the only one who thinks this should be deleted. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:45, 20 March 2006 (CST)

If we have such a problem with this, let me pose a solution: virtual-Six and virtual-Baltar aren't the only hallucinations, technically. They're just the only hallucinations that talk back. Baltar also hallucinated that Six brought him to the Opera House on Kobol. Maybe this should be a category, not an article, and Six, Baltar, and the Opera House couls have their own articles. Also, if more hallucinations are introduced, it would be pretty silly to have deleted this only to have to put it back. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 13:29, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:I think it is important to note that theatrically these hallusinations are treated characters in their own rights. The hallucination of the baby in the crib on Kobol is essentially a prop and whereas the hallucination of at-the-time-Commander William Adama was a character in his own right, it was a one-shot deal that was part of the scene. Also, Roslin's dreams of Adar were just dreams and not an interactive character but Adar still gets his own page because of historical notes. Hallucination-Six is a re-occurring interacting character thru many episodes and may just be Baltar's hallucination due to his psychosis, but there has to be a back story involved with her knowledge of events involving the birth of Hera. I believe this will come out in season 3 and therefore this article should be here in preparation of this revalation. Hallucination-Balter may earn his own article piece in the same revalations. We will see. I think the jury is out depending on the re-occurance of that character. [[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 09:21, 21 March 2006 (MST)

== Establishing a Pattern ==
I was watching an episode of DS9 the other day ([[MemoryAlpha:Waltz|Waltz]]), and was struck by the similarity of the interactions between (the increasingly insane) Dukat and his mental apparitions. Towards the beginning he is able to hold it together like Baltar and Six do, playing off comments or looks that he makes to them. It doesn't take too long before he's trying to blast them with a phaser, though. I was not surprised when I hit the memory-alpha site to find that RDM did the story on it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:39, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:Dukat, betrayer of the Alpha Quadrant. Baltar, betrayer of humanity.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:43, 21 March 2006 (EST)

==Should we Delete "Analysis and Questions"?==
Well, recently many people have been complaining about the supposed speculation based info in this article. I've read it well, and though they are obviousley exaggerating (its only one section), it is still possible for them to continue the arguement (which is hence started being used to describe the wiki, and its editors (unjustly at times). Perhaps if we deleted this it would ease the comments which may soon start to go more unjustly than just this article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23 March 2006
:For goodness sake, it's a marked section. If someone doesn't want to read speculation they can just ignore that part. It's starting to sound to me like we have obsessed people out there. Edit: I don't mean you, Sauron 18, but of course that's obvious.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:36, 25 March 2006 (EST)
::For the record, I personally have no objection to speculation in a marked-off section, particularly on a topic-specific page (as opposed to an episode guide page). I think that, when the series eventually comes to an end, speculations should be segregated out even further, so that a part of the site can be considered a solid reference work for the series, but hopefully we've got a while before we have to worry about that :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:48, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:::I concur on all points.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:57, 25 March 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I would rather leave it there (especially if something turns up right), but I was just making a sort of plan b, if the wiki begins being attacked on a larger scale. Of course, people would have to be kind of stupid to not notice it says "Analysis and Questions", but, well people do tend to be a bit like this. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 March 2006

We should delete this page because A) the "ChipSix" section was better when on the main "Number Six" article; indeed, MOST of "Cylon related Hallucinations" is just a cut'n'paste of that old page's material B) the "Hallucinatory Baltar" stuff is just a copy paste of a paragraph from the episode guide. And even if they're re-written, there simply isn't much to say. And RDM STATED that Baltar was just a hallucination. ''BattlestarWiki'' is not a forum, and this page is really just a sloppy mistake. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:30, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:You are out gunned Merv. Also this page shows that this exists, shows that these do happen. Delete it, but it would be back in another form or another because these Hallucinations are creating story plot and twists and they should be addressed all together. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:I don't know why you think Internal-Six would be better on the Number Six article when she clearly isn't one. Also, RDM's exact words were that Caprica-Six is seeing her own idea of who Baltar is. He said the same of Baltar seeing his idea of who Six is. In neither case does this preclude something else acting like the person's idea of their former lover. For your information we've added details on many visions that weren't mentioned in the old, incorrectly-placed Internal-Six section. And indeed, even if if one or both of the Internals does turn out to be just a hallucination: (A) We don't know it yet so don't count your chickkens before they're hatched, (B) Who cares? They're still a plot-driving phenomenon even if it is just insanity. I also don't know what you mean with your "TV Guide' reference with the Internal-Baltar section.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:50, 26 March 2006 (EST)

::Please bring up something relevant instead of vague threats of a revert war. No, you have not brought up an official vote. The place for this is in the Analysis section of the '''Episode Guides''' as opposed to just making up a new page for random thoughts; this is not a forum, and on a more established mediawiki like MemoryAlpha, this page would have been deleted quite some time ago. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:17, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::: Then call for a vote. Until then, it shouldn't even be deleted then or dreamed of being deleted. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:18, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::: [[Battlestar_Wiki:Tutorial_%28Keep_in_mind%29#Subject_matter]] - Should be taking a look at. Notable Subject Matter is something I like to point out before people check out this link. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:45, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::: I'm not sure what part of that linked section you think supported your case. I vote with Merv. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:11, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:I thank you, CalculatinAvatar. But Shane; encyclopedias are not a democracy; this is not a matter of informational content (we vote on things like that), but a question of wiki article standards, of "what justifies having an article" which is one of the more basic questions we run into. For example, someone could have a page devoted to "Does Cally Enjoy Cornmuffins?"; such a page could actually be based on things seen on screen, but would it justify an article? No. This is whole thing is just cut and pastes from other articles, or "Analysis" which should be put into the ''Episode Guide'' articles for analysis. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:50, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::As for adding the link to "Notable subject matter"; Shane this didn't prove anything; everyone if you click on the link it just leads to a page saying "subject content and what constitutes and article is a hotly debates issue"--->this does not support or go against your position either way, Shane. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:52, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:: Does it have anything to do with the plot? No, then it should not be included. However, periods of this {{PAGENAME}} happen because of the plot and effect the plot of the story. If I were to ask if brushing my teeth keep me away from having cavaities, I would say that is part of my plot. Something simple but part of my own plot. This is on a much grander scale. Also, just relizing this now, this takes down some of the size of Episode Guides. They are getting to long, and placing them on a sperate page, is what a Wiki does to conserve space so anyone can read it, even those people I know who still run a 56k modem. You keep saying no. If they didn't show it, then I would agree, but for some odd reasons they seem to a) change the music when Six shows up, b) have a real dramtic pan left or right shot to show Six has showen up again. These would be deleted scenes! As a fact, they are not. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:57, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:::The article has it's importance, in the three main types of hallucinations which do not really fit any category but this and are rather important to the plot, if not directly responsible for it. Despite some user's attempts to make it seem like foolish speculation, there is really none but in the section of analysis and questions, which is after all, for analysis and questions. It goes here because the episode guide is for episodes, not phenomena in them, though a small mention to point in the direction of the more explicit article dedicated solely to documenting the appearance and effects of the phenomena themeselves.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 27 March 2006

== Analysis is ''not'' limited to episode guides... ==

Just want to point out that analysis, contrary to the beliefs of some, is not limited to episode guides. In fact, as the series continues, I do not doubt that common themes will have their own articles. For instance, someone could conceivably come along and create an article on [[You reap what you sew]], which is a common theme in BSG. On such an article, they can describe the cause and effect of this theme. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:35, 26 March 2006 (CST)

: Joe -- thank you for stating this point clearly. Pages that focus on recurring themes or distinctive phenomena, and draw together information from various episodes about those themes or phenomena on a single page, make perfect sense to me, '''even if the information in them is made up entirely of copies from episode pages'''. This page qualifies, IMO. And now, I'm really tempted to write (or at least get started) the article you suggest as an example, but I don't know if I'll have the time :-D--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 21:43, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-03-27T01:49:15Z

UncleMikey: /* Succession Boxes */

Because of their length, individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.
As further discussions are concluded, please move them to the archive as well, in order to keep this page topical and readable. If the first archive threatens to exceed 32 kilobytes, please create a new one. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]] for details.

'''Previous discussions:'''

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Verb Tense|Verb Tense]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards|Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Signing Your Work|Signing Your Work]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Spelling|Spelling]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Single-name Address|Single-name Address]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Episode Links and Formatting|Episode Links and Formatting]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters|Proposed Guidelines / Speculative Matters]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Quorum of Twelve|Quorum of Twelve]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Namespaces|Namespaces]]

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02|Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02#Disambiguation|Disambiguation]]


----

== Image Sizes ==

I tend to think that images that are whole-screen captures (and thus letterbox dimensions) should be about 300px wide. This is, however, based entirely on how that looks on my browser window, which is pretty large, but not maximized on a 1280x1026 resolution. So that might look horrid on some other screen. Anyway, with that in mind, I resize all my full-screen captures to be 600px wide since that's a nice two times what I think they should be viewed at. Should I be even thinking this way, or should I just be telling the articles to be thumbs and set my preferences for larger thumbs? In the case of cropped screen-caps, though, I think 300px is too wide, or rather, often too tall. How do others think on this? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:21, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:Yes, use your preference settings for this. FWIW, I'm a fan of judicious cropping. It helps make smaller thumbs more legible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:28, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:: If you're trying to illustrate something specific, sure, cropping is needed in most cases. However, for episode pages and, I think, when trying to show a scene, the whole screen is good for its sense of context. I could be wrong. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:09, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Image Credit ==

Okay... Most images are gonna be screen caps we get from the shows. In which case the credit should go directly to the SciFi Channel, SkyOne Network or Universal Studios. The question is, which one? Or should it be all three? Or does Universal own the two channels and so saying "Cedit: SciFi/SkyOne" is enough? Or... What do you guys think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 21 September 2005 (EDT)
: Universal Studios. They own the copyright. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:26, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
:: Following wikipedia's example, we don't need to credit image copyrights in-text, do we? It should be enough to note copyright status on the image's description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:27, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic ==

It's not very -o-Matic, is it? ;o) Anyway, I think we need a standard for how they're formatted. I prefer the following:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."

:--''Rank and Name in Italics'' ("Episode Name")

It would also be nice to figure out how to go and look at quotes entered for days other than the current day. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:00, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

::As far as looking at previous quotes, that's a Joe question, though it would be welcome. Joe mentioned that the template info has to be added manually, but a creative wikipedia might work something out from a large database. At first I added at most 2 lines as a quote, but now I stick to one quote. I think the style you noted worked well (it did for my two contributions this week), so let's see if we all say so. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:50, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, if you want to keep track of all the quotes, why not just add them to [[:Category:Quotes]]? Theoretically, every quote should then be linked from that category page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:44, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: However, it's a bit late for quotes already put up, no? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:49, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Wait. Is [[Quotes|this page]] automated somehow? If so, then a Quotes category is kind of moot. I remember looking at it a while ago, though, and it having no date information and just a single quote in it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:04, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

On second thought, I prefer this:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."
:--Rank and Name in Normal (''Episode Name'')

For full exchanges I think something like this would work:

:'''Rank and Name 1:''' Humorous battle banter aimed at Speaker 2.
:'''Rank and Name 2:''' Scathing insult.
:'''Name 1:''' Pithy retort.
:--''Episode Name''

What do you guys think of this? If no one replies in a few days, I'll start soliciting opinions on people's talk pages and via AIM. After a few more days, I'll simply make an executive decision and put this policy up. I think it would be best to link it at the head of the [[Quotes]] page, too. When the time comes. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:05, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

::Day, I've been adapting that format (per your original thoughts) and I find it works well. My only problem is insuring a proper break between the quote(s) and the name and episode for single-quotation blocks. I think this thing has languished long enough to put up a quick vote or 5-day consensus/no-objection period, where we can make this the practice (and retrofit all recorded quotes to match if necessary). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 1 November 2005 (EST)

::: COnsider this that period. Also, do you mean you like the break, but you're concerned about adding it for some reason that I do not understand, or do you mean that your dislike tags? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:46, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:::: Okay. I'm about to put my above policy up. I think I'll have to play with it for a bit to get the display format the way I want it for ease of copying and for users who know nothing of HTML. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:02, 11 November 2005 (EST)

::::: I would suggest putting this policy (when it is finalized) and a note about not repeating quotes right on the [[Quotes]] page where the "This is a list of quotes..." statement is. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 19:59, 17 November 2005 (EST)

I noticed that people have started putting in quotes from the original series. I think this is great but in terms of standardization I would follow the same idea as used on the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha wiki]:
* If it is an original series episode, quote as [[TOS]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a 1980 series episode, quote as [[1980]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a re-imagined series episode, quote as [[RDM]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
[[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 13:46, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Not a bad idea, Nwobkwr, but it might get cumbersome. Might I suggest we use only the "TOS" flag for TOS and 1980 episodes, and leave the RDM episodes as-is? This gives a slant to the current series, but then, we will have many more quotes from RDM than from the old series since transcripts of the TOS/80 shows are far less available than the current. It also saves on visual complexity. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:30, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::I think we should put the dab in the episode credit, and only when there are episodes in each series with the same title. (basically, "The Hand of God".) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:53, 30 November 2005 (EST)

Another thing to consider. In light of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Quote_of_the_Day/09_30&curid=3654&diff=19411&oldid=19408 this] quote, should we allow non-BSG quotes on a longer-than-one-shot basis? I think it would be okay, but others (obviously) don't. I'd like a few more opinions and some actual discussion, rather than just editing. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:00, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Links ==

So, in my opinion, the first occurance of nearly any proper noun should be a link. Even the thing an article is about. This means that the first occurance of an article's topic will be in bold, which I think is nice. For longer articles, I think linking becomes kind of discretionary. If someone hasn't been mentioned (or linked, maybe) in a while, then they could/should be linked. Also, episode credits at the end of an event description should ''always'' be linked. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:19, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:Using links-to-self to bold title text is discouraged by the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles|Manual of Style]]. In general I think we should defer to Wikipedia for guidance except where we feel a justified need to explicitly contradict them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:02, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ah. I think that's probably wise. Should we, then, manually '''bold''' them (or, in the case of ship names, '''''bold-italicize''''' them), or leave it out all together? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:40, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Manually bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:41, 2 October 2005 (EDT)

== HTML ==

I, ah, didn't think this was exactly necessary, but, uh... I think, now, it might be. Do we need to make a note about preffering <nowiki>''</nowiki> to ? I see various posts that have several changes, but leave the HTML intact. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:51, 21 October 2005 (EDT)
: Agreed. Wiki sytnax should always supersede HTML sytnax. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:29, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
: Adendum: By the way, I created two templates: {{tl|s}} and {{tl|u}} for {{s|striking out}} and {{u|underlining text}}, respectfully. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:36, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::HTML isn't exactly tasteful, but isn't it preferable to templates? HTML and wikisyntax both retain their formatting if moved to another wiki, but anything formatted with templates won't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:17, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::: Good point, Peter... Maybe "hacking" MediaWiki might be an option, so as to create wikisyntax for underlining? Yes, this would undoubtedly create similar problems, but if a patch was submitted to the MediaWiki developers then they may introduce it (or something like it) into future versions of the software. Just a thought... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:58, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: What would you have the Wiki Markup be? Underscores and dashes, maybe? Might be dangerous, but perhaps it would require two of each in a row? Or three? I was thinking that _underline_ would render underline and that -strike- would render <s>strike</s>. However, I don't want underscores to mess up URLs or for strike-outs to mess up use of the em-dash, which is often substituted by the double-en dash (--). I'd just as soon use the HTML tags (except that it would get in the way of validating the HTML of the Wiki in XHTML 1.0 Strict, if that's a concern). Maybe we could use !!underline!! and !!!strike!!! or something. Ohoh! What about ``underline`` and ```strike```. Of course... you could go nuts and <nowiki>'''''`````italic bold underline strike`````'''''</nowiki> for '''''<s>italic bold underline strike</s>'''''. Sounds like a fighting more from some anime. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:52, 23 October 2005 (EDT)

::::: The biggest one I saw a problem was with the Overview's in each of the episode's. I was seeing all the time. So.. that's my two cents. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 17:59, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Verb Tense 2 ==

While it may be a "convention" within fiction articles about an episode, the verb tense issue is not using present-tense within an encyclopedia unless something is still ongoing. As I posted in the main page talk page and on a user whom made me aware of the verb tense issue, I posit that this convention be changed for the actual entries for the people, places, things. In other words, in the episode pages, the verb tense would stay as it is, but the verb tense in the individual article entries for say "Gaius Baltar" which would be the encyclopedic entry on him, would follow the norms and conventions used in other encyclopedias. That convention being, again using Gauis Balter's entry, the descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, whereas referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard Galcatica, etc. would be present-tense since this is the current state within the timeline of the show at present. This would of course be edited as events unfold within the show. If for example he is removed form office as VP, then the verb tense would change for that piece of information as well as adding in how he stopped being VP, etc.

Likewise passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper would be past-tense, while the current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II would be present-tense. Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia.

This sort of tense usage within things such as the ''Star Trek'' technical manuals, Omnipedia's etc., which match he tense usage of current "real world" encyclopedias. Again, not trying to be a bull in a china shop as the new guy on the block, but it is rather jarring to read encyclopedic entries which do not follow the verb tense conventions used in "real world" ones. [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 22:54, 1 December 2005 (EST)

:I can see why you feel that way, but past tense sounds horrible in a literary criticism context, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect "star trek encyclopedia"-style articles to be free of critical analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:26, 1 December 2005 (EST)

::I am not suggesting that the past tense be used in the literary criticism and or episode entries or sections, but in the encyclopedia type entries. It isn't just the ''Star Trek'' encyclopedias but encyclopedias et all which use the past tense for historical or background content and present tense about current status content. In other words, in all encyclopedias (and I post those style content sections here) would say:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' and after leaving office ''(past tense)'' now lives ''(present tense)'' in the State of New York and has ''(present tense)'' offices in New York City."

::If he were to move to Anchorage Alaska to live and had offices in Juno Alaska this would be updated in a real encyclopedia to read:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' after leaving office he lived ''(past tense)'' in the State of New York and had ''(past tense)'' offices in New York City, on Dec 2nd, he moved ''(past tense)'' to Alaska and now lives ''(present tense)'' in Anchorage and has ''(present tense)'' offices in Juno."

::To use present tense throughout this site, to be honest it reads awkward in many places. Not to mention that it does shatter the kinda cool suspension of disbelief aspect to have an encyclopedia ''Galactica''. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 00:38, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::The idea of a fictional "encyclopedia Galactica" is patently not this site's goal. We document plenty of in-canon stuff, certainly, but we have a great quantity of content given over to actors, writers, behind-the-scenes material, critical analysis, and three or four different incarnations of the series. I don't have any interest in working toward the false document mystique, personally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:35, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::: Well for me personally, that is 9/0ths of the appeal of wanting to work on things at this site. Particularly since BSG in its re-=imagined form is a rich subject to do just that, because of the attention to detail and "realism" as the underlying ethos of the show. Having a robust wiki that reenforces and builds out upon that quality of the show is, to my mind, ideal. Not saying you have to want that to, but it is a real cold shower for me perosnally. Just my 2/100ths of a cubits worth. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::I can appreciate Lestatdelc's arguments on using present-tense, and it took me a bit to digest, but I agree with the standing convention. I've recently discovered the Star Trek Memory Alpha wiki (wow, and to think such a wiki could be done is amazing to me) and reviewed a few pages at random. Many use past tense there, but some, like the page on the excellent episode, [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Enterprise_Incident "The Enterprise Incident"], is successfully written in present-tense. I suspect that Memory Alpha hasn't a verb tense convention there, but note how the active-tense generates a feel of the characters ''doing'' something, rather than being "historical". As Peter explained to me, fictional characters are always in the act of doing something each time you read or watch them--and after a time I realized how correct he was--it keeps the characterization alive to me and to the article. The use of the verb tense also makes it more challenging to write the article as good fiction tends to evolve--in an active voice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 2 December 2005 (EST)

::::::But we in theory are not advancing the story but discussing what has occurred on the show and describing the details of the universe presented in the show (as well as "about the show(s) themselves). If we take the notion of suspension of disbelief at face value, and imagine the events of BSG not being fiction and documenting the events and details there of, particularly in encyclopedic form we would present events which have occurred as past tense, and present status and ongoing things in present tense. What Peter has said up-thread is that there is no interest in such a thing for him personally (and it would seem that most concur) I would consider it unfortunate as this is a great missed opportunity. I think that such "false document" mystique is actually something that has rather large appeal, witness the massive industry of such things in the ''Star Trek'' fandom, from blueprints, tech manuals, omnipedias, and the entire supplemental industry to the RPG medium. As for other projects about fictional stories and their universes, I would point to things like the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda] which is based on the Tolkien universe. I don't wish to be a disrupting presence here, especially being a "nugget" as it were, but I think this is a bad call for a missed opportunity. I can envision a clear convention which would allow for discussing each incarnation of the series and the "about the show" aspect in tandem with the "in universe" repository of content about said universe in the style of such things as the Trek universe things of Omnipedia, Concodrance, Tech Manuls, etc. and the Arda/Tolkien examples. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::: If one cares to review the earlier verb tense discussion, I originally thought past tense was the Way To Go. However, now I stand with the current convention (I think this is also displayed in the past discussion, but I'm too lazy to check). I agree with the present-tense being used to talk about, say, the ''Oddesey'' or ''The Matrix'' or ''Friends'' or whatever, but those aren't, to me, the most compelling points, good as they may be. The compelling point is, once again, that I'm lazy. The amount of man-hours it would take to update the tense in every character bio every week while the show's not on hiatus is, well, a lot. We have a hard enough time with the stuff that's already within scope and I don't see Lest's reasons as nearly as compelling as the three against: Added workload, literary precedent, and more "alive" feel (to borrow Spence's word). And, more specifically, I, too, find the false-documentary idea only "eh" at best. The new series is shot in a way that kind of feels like a documentary, but let's leave that to them and let's us do our own thing. And, in any case, how would one account for multiple series and spoilers in a documentary? Bleh. We might have to start talking in alternate realities or [[railgun|adaptive physics]] if we went down ''that'' road. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:24, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: Well we would be updating the character entries anyway as new events unfold, and placing those events in past tense as they are entered is no more work than putting them there in present tense. The only distinction would be what is currant and ongoing status. For example "Gaius Baltar is the VP in the government" which stays like that until events change that, which would be editing that entry to add whatever event changed that anyway. In fact having both be present tense would be really awkward from a readers perspective. I would also point out that it is not "false documentary" so much as "false document" i.e. if there were an up-tp-the-minute encyclopedia that covered the vast array of things '''within''' that BSG universe that was "passed through" the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscenium proscenium] to us here, that is the style of content about the things within the show which I posit, should be presented in the relevant verb-tense. And the "outside the proscenium" content, about the show, the actors, episode summary, analysis, and comparisons between series, etc. would all be in the present tense which, I agree is much more natural and engaging. I don't honestly see it as more work once the bulk of such tense resolution is done to the exiting content where needed, and as I have posited (probably to the point you guys wanna toss me out the nearest door me already, sheepish grin) would hold much more appeal to me and I am sure others of whom it is demonstratively evident there is an audience for, otherwise fandom and official creation of things like blueprints, tech manuals, etc. for other series stuff, which is presented as if they were "genuine documents" from said universe depicts in those various shows, would not be so prevalent. Again, not trying to be cantankerous or difficult. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::::: I would also really prefer past tense. Like Lestatdelc says, it creates the feel of the article being real. Starwars Wiki always uses past tense, and refers to the articles as being written "in-universe", which to me sums up why past tense is so good. Writing is present tense sounds like someone is writing the events as they watch them on TV, which kind of takes you out of it. Also, I personally find present tense just seems really clumsy. It's like reading a little childs picture book (without so many pictures, and uh, bigger words :) ). Day makes an good point about keeping with the documentary style, and as for alternate series and spoilers, just check how starwars wiki handles non-canon and spoilers. It would be a bit of work to change, but not too much if lots of people work on it. One more point, it might be easier to convince those who are new here to write in past-tense than in present-tense (which seems like an uphill battle). Anyone else agree, or are us pro-past-tense people just in the minority here?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:13, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::As I've stated above, the "in-universe" conceit does not appeal to me at all. Present tense prose is more difficult to write than past tense, but I think the results are crisper and sound more professional. The process forces one to pay closer attention to their writing style.
::::::::As for your comment about convincing "those who are new here to write in past-tense", I find that notion troubling. This matter is such that there can only be one standard. The purpose of the Standards and Conventions process is (naturally) to create and promulgate a consistant style. If you wish to change the policy, discussion here is the place to effect it, not through unilateral action. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::You've misunderstood me, I was merely suggesting a change - one which I don't expect will happen, and I'm fine with that. My comment was that at the moment people are coming in and writing past-tense, and having to be told to write in present-tense as they have not read these standards. I was saying that one advantage of changing the standard to past-tense would be that they would probably not have to be told. I'm not about to tell people to go against the standard - that we have one standard is more important than what it is anyway.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 00:11, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::: I also think that present tense sounds more academic. As has been noted before (more than once), this style was initially adopted chiefly because that is the accepted academic style when writing about works of fiction. This is one of the ways in which we attempt to be encyclopedic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:55, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Ranks and Locations ==

Okay. So I was playing this [[:Template:Quote of the Day/09 29|this quote]] and I ran into an issue. In Civillian Speak, I'd call Apollo "''[[Galactica]]'''s [[CAG]], Captain [[Lee Adama]]", but I have an inkling that in Military Speak he'd be something like "[[CAG]] (''[[Galactica]]''), Cpt. [[Lee Adama]]" or whatever. You'd only use this when needing to differentiate him from, say, the [[CAG]] (''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''), but we might want to. Same goes for [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Laird]]. Does someone with a better grasp of military (specifically US Naval, if possible) conventions with respect to this have a suggestion on what kind of convention we should adopt? I'd love it if it didn't conflict with the current Quote of the Day episode convention (since ''Pesgasus'' is half of the ships this is likely to apply to), but we can always change the QotD thing, if we have to. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:04, 6 December 2005 (EST)

:I've tended to use the military abbreviation style as the Army used that I learned while a civilian employee.
::ADM, CDR, MAJ, COL, CPT, LT, LTJG, ENS
::CPO, SGT, PVT, SPC
::Deck Hand, Recruits have no specific abbreviation I can find.

:All caps, no spaces or punctuation. There should be plenty of Internet resources for this. And RDM has already noted the format he used, taking it mostly from the Original Series and his military experience. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:15, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: Enlightening (and I'm just glad someone replied to this at all), but somewhat tangental to my wonderment. I guess it was really about how we're supposed to specify where people are assigned when they have a specific role. In "Pegasus" Tigh and Fisk are both Colonels, but they're ''also'' both XOs, so for would we call one "COL Tigh (XO, ''Galactica'')" and the other "COL Fisk (XO, ''Pegasus'')"? Or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:49, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: They would be referred to as ''Galactica'' XO and ''Pegasus'' XO repectively. They're referred to by position first, not by name. Unit, Position, rank, name. [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 16:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So, I guess, with relation to the quotes, we don't really need to say where given characters are assigned... I don't know why I'd gotten that need into my head, really. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:59, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== Image Format ==

Mostly, the images I upload have been .jpg files. That's just what I tend to use on the web by default. However, because we scale our images a lot (i.e. all out thumbs), would it be more prudent to use .png formatting which, I hear, scales better? And, if that's so, should we make a note on this page about preferred image formatting (though, as long as it shows up alright, I don't see why we'd discriminate)? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:09, 23 December 2005 (EST)

:Most imprudent. PNG is far less efficient at compressing photographic images than JPEG. All image scaling is handled by the wiki software, and based on the original JPEG, so no significant generational degredation should exist.
:PNG has its own distinct uses, and is much better than JPEG at line art and schematics. I think this is commonly understood by most internet users, and I don't think that we need an explict policy on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 23 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Control Station ==
I was working on identifying and classifying unused images that have been uploaded, rather than deleting them outright (at Peter Farago's suggestion). While I started this with the intention of it being something I could handle myself, it has been suggested that it might merit a project or sub-project. I wanted to see if there was any consensus for a project that:

"would take over the Images section of Standards and Conventions (since that's not really where that shouold live, ultimately), and it would cross-coordinate with Characters. I'd want to call it something like Aft Image Control or Auxilliary Image Control... Or, failing those series-references, the Ministry of Images ([[User talk:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/#Project?|Day]])."

Potentially I would move [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|The Island of Misfit Images]] to a Project namespace with a more Galactica-themed title, but it would be a subpage/project of the Image Control Station (to avoid slamming bandwidth-challenged folks that might stumble across the Control Station). The actual control station would be more of a place that coordinate all the image related project pages (present and future).

So the main options I'm proposing are, a project page for Images in general with a subproject for misfit images, just a project/subproject for the misfit images (and we'll link to it from somewhere), or just leave it in Steelviper's user space. (Though I'm open to other ideas as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I'm, perhaps obviously, in favor of an entire images project. It could also consume Requested Images and have a section for images that we have, but might need bigger/less blurry/just better versions. I think, too, it should probably eat the "List of Characters Wanting Pictures" over at Characters, and have a link to it from there, instead. I mean... while we're doing all this, if we do. However, I think another few opinions are needed before diving off and making the page and doing all this moving and cross-linking, etc. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm in favor of moving Steelviper's Island of Misfit Images to the Battlestar Wiki namespace, under its current title. I'd like requested images to remain a separate page, although they should be cross-linked to each other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::: Why's that, Peter? Just for ease of finding for new users or so that all those images aren't on the requested page (we were thinking, or I was, that the Island would be a sub-page of whatever project it became part of) or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::It's no favor to my position that I can't articulate my point well, but I just don't feel that either image requests or image deletions would be a logical subcategory of the other. Better just to have Image Requests refer users to check the Island before making a request, and the Island refer users to Image Requests before deleting an image. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:47, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Hrm. I see your point, but I wasn't thinking that one would be, well, inside the other, for lack of a better phrase. I was more thinking of a hierarchy like this:

::::: '''Images Project'''
:::::* Requested Images
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** Locations
:::::** Equipment
:::::** etc.
:::::* Island of Misfit Images
:::::** As currently organized
:::::* Images needing improvement
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** etc.
:::::* Images to be deleted

::::: It's not precisely clear there, but they're all on the same level, I'd just put the Misfits on a page of their own to keep load times to a minimum. Maybe that's too ambitious, though? Anyway, now if you disagree, I at least am certain you know precisely what you're disagreeing with. I'm not sure I was entirely clear before. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:10, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::What goes on the hub then, besides links to the sub-pages? I do agree that an "images needing improvement" category or project would be good for when we ultimately want to upgrade from TV captures to DVD screenshots. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Any updates on this? So far the only action proposed (by somebody other than the guys trying to sell the "Control Station") is moving the island to the BW namespace. It's been around long enough that I'd be comfortable doing that if there is consensus that it belongs there. People might be more willing to hack and slash on it if it were out of my user area (even though people are already welcome to tear into it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:46, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:Please, go ahead with this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== Dates ==

Do we have a convention for dates? I am referring here to ''Earth'' dates; i.e., those pertaining to the production, such as brodcasts and DVD releases. I have seen at least these four: "Jan 20 2006", "January 20 2006", "20 January 2006", and "January 20th, 2006". Which is preferred? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:46, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:Note sure. Didn't know if it really mattered. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: Personally, I prefer "4 January 2006", but that's me. I think having the whole month out is goo, whichever order we decide on. Normal American convention is "January 4, 2006". So... that's my two cubits. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:13, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::I'm partial to the "4 January 2006" format, myself. M/D/Y is a crime against civilized mathematics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree too. Plus, the M/D/Y format may be more confusing to non-US readers. (For example the UK does D/M/Y)[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::For what it's worth, as I was going through all the eposide info boxes, I found the majority to be in "January 4 2006" style, so I attempted to unify to that format as I went along. I agree with the mathematical elegance of D/M/Y, however, and I dislike the comma and the ordinal number. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:34, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Yeah. Ordinals suck. I don't care whether we put the date before the month or after, as long as it's clear what each piece of data is. The only argument for using ##/##/#### is to ease the understanding of non-English-speaking people, but--if we want to do that, we need to make translations for the whole Wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:38, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Y-M-D, all numeric, is easily the nicest for sorting, so I'd say it's the one with "mathematical elegance" by virtue of its computer science elegance. That said, "10 March 2006" is the nicest for instant reading clarity and agrees with the output of <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Commas are a waste, and ordinals would be horrific.
:::::: Anyway, someone should actually put up a consensus if this counts as one; I don't mind going through and standardizing them some day relatively soon. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:53, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:So, have we decided what date format is to be used? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:58, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Battle pages ==

I realize that although I created the battle pages, I never clearly set out the format they should take. Basically, they try to imitate real world battle pages at Wikipedia as much as possible. Using this, I created battle boxes for the entire Lord of the Rings battles series, then just re-applied it here. I'm going to be revamping the boxes in the next few days (no info changes, just formatting changes, nudging, etc. little fixes). However, because they should try to follow real world battle, they should try to stick as closely as possible to these. Long story short, there are 3 basic categories that an "engagement" should fall into:

* A) Battle - large scale engagements
* B) Skirmish - small scale, but noteworthy, engagements
* C) On *''rare''* occasion, alternative names can be used. This largely consists of the "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]" which was less a battle a more of a slaughter. This was then re-applied to the "Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards" because it was part of the larger "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]". But this was really an exception, for reasons which I think are obvious. I mean, if ever the Galactica crew destroys the entire [[Cylon homeworld]] with a [Wikipedia:Christopher Blair|Temblor Bomb] in season 5 or so, we'd call it the "Fall of the Cylon Homeworld", but otherwise this term is reserved only for engagements resulting in massive damage. Another notable exception is the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]"; you see the Battle of the Philippine Sea is so commonly known as the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", and RDM said it was directly inspired by this, that I thought it fitting to alter the name to fit that (that, and it took place in an unspecified region of interstellar space, and Basetars don't often have names. I mean, if a Basetar named "''Truth and Reconiciliation''", this battle would be called "Battle of the ''Truth and Reconciliation''" or something. But the engagement in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" didn't have this. However, "[[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]]" ''did'' have a notable ship with a name in it, so it became "Battle of...etc".

Further ground rules to lay out are what actually deserves an article: officially, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]" is about the smallest engagement we're ever really going to make a page for. Generally, something deserves an article if:

*1) A Colonial ship is destroyed (Vipers, Raptors, etc). They can't easily be replaced, and the loss of even one can be considered a blow. (The upcoming engagements in "[[Scar]]" might be a skirmish instead of a battle, depends how many ships are involved at once).
*2) A massive number of Cylon vessels is destroyed, making the engagement a noteworthy event. For example, the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]" resulted in no Colonial losses ''whatsoever'', yet so many Cylons (hundreds of ships) were destroyed that it warrants it's own page.

An example of something that would ''not'' deserve it's own page is like when 2 Raiders were destroyed in "[[Final Cut]]", with no Colonial losses. No personnel or ships were lost, and the losses to the Cylons were insignificant in the extreme (considering that they still have production facilities and the Colonials do not).

As a rule of thumb, any engagement that involves a Battlestar or a Basestar firing it's own guns at the enemy is a "Battle" (Battle of the Coral Sea was a full scale battle, yet no enemy ships directly engaged each other; just fighters). However, if a Battlestar launches Vipers, but doesn't actually get involved in a small scale fight against enemy fightercraft, it's ''probably'' not a battle (case in point, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]".

Nextly, we have the matter of Commanders and Casualties. We don't know who the heck is commanding the Cylon Fleet or if there are "commanders" in the sense we think of aboard the Basestars. Thus they should be left as "unknown" (though if a Basestar is destroyed, you can assume the "commander" died, also if the entire Cylon force is wiped out). Mind you, if we ever see Number Six standing in a Basestar giving orders during a battle, if she actually gives orders she may be listed as a commander. Usually, a Commander is the highest ranking person present; don't bother to list Colonel Tigh if he never actually takes over command from Adama at any point. We should list "Admiral Cain AND Commander Adama" because Adama wasn't really serving "under" her at the time but by joint agreement, etc (complicated).

Casualties are easier now in Season 2; count how many people died in the episode who were *''not''* involved in the battle, then subtract that from next week's survivor count. For example, in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" two people died that weren't in the battle: Admiral Cain and an unnamed ''Pegasus'' Marine. Thus, when we see the survivor count in "[[Epiphanies]]", we should subtract 2 from it, and us that as "casualties" (I got the idea from "Battle of Kobol").

"[[Battle of Kobol]]" was on the whole a messy, drawn out affair as I think you will agree. We agreed that there's a cut off point where Centurion actions in "Home, Part I" no longer count as a battle or skirmish because it was so small scale (again, no Vipers were destroyed, etc).

As for "Numbers" we are keeping a running tally of ships, though "Cylon" numbers are a little tricky. I just go with "associated Raiders and Heavy Raiders" when a Basestar is involved, when no numbers are stated on screen.

As for forces, it's "Cylons" not "Cylon Alliance" (from TOS) because we have no idea what the political structure of the Cylons is. For every battle after the massive loss of 118 Battlestars in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, every other engagement after this is done by "Remnants of the Colonial Fleet".

I hope that sorts out stuff for now. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: That's ''awesome'', Ricimer. Now, before we put it up on the main S&C page, I think it needs some concising, though it will be key to not let it become less clear. I would suck at that job, so... please someone else volunteer. I'd also like to see the battle box become a template (as mentioned on your talk page), for ease of changing it if we need to and also for ease of CSS-ifying it so that it can change with themes, eventually. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::As noted on [[Talk:Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], I continue to prefer "Attack on" for situations where the target is named but the battleground is not. As for [[Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]], there is no reason why "Battle of" wouldn't encapsulate that idea accurately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Because it's doubtful if shots were even fired by the Colonials at Scorpion; it was a one-sided slaughter, but nonetheless deserved it's own page. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::That's a fair point. I continue to believe that "Battle of" is inappropriate when the field of battle has not been specified. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I'm sorry but this is the format that more or less works. "Battle" is a standard name. "Attack" sounds like a Doolittle Raid, as opposed to the MASSIVE engagement we just saw. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::::Your ''ex cathedra'' assertions on style are unbecoming. I am interested to hear the opinions of other users, particularly Joe, who named the page in the first place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::I fail to see what is rude about this: rather than simply editing pages as I saw fit, you ''told'' me to make a full write up of my view on the subject here, and then let consensus agree or disagree: you are chastising me, for doing as you requested? That said, not ''ex cathedrda'', but with ''plenitudo potestatis'' :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:54, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I went to Wikipedia hoping to find a definitive pattern to follow, but came up empty. [[Wikipedia:Battle#Battle naming|Naming Battles]] Apparently the british had a whole committee for this purpose ("British Battles Nomenclature Committee"). While almost all of the battles listed in Wikipedia follow the "Battle of" convention, they are always followed by a geographic reference (which we're not really going to have in this case). If we're going to name it after the resurrection ship, we might consider the outcome as well. Rather than just calling it the "Attack of", we might consider the fact that the result was its destruction. In Star Fleet Battles there was a scenario called "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" that always stuck in my mind (a Klingon ship attacks a greatly disadvantaged ''Hood'', usually resulting in its destruction). I guess that would be similar to "Fall of the Twelve Colonies." ("Destruction of the Resurrection Ship"?) Although that would certainly spoil the ending if someone hadn't seen the episode. Sorry not to be able to take a decisive stand, but hopefully some more people will weigh in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Good info there. Well, If it was them ''surprising the Resurrection Ship alone'', I would go with "Destruction", but instead it was an all-out battle to destroy it, case in point it's the only ever engagement between ''multiple'' Basestars and ''multiple'' Battlestars. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::That's a good point. With all this focus on the Resurrection ship, I lost sight of the fact that it was essentially a non-combatant. It was the strategic objective, but the actual firepower lay in the basestars and the raiders. I guess naming would have been a lot simpler if they gave us a goofy sector name like the TOS would often do (Hatari sector, etc) to use as a geographic landmark. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I still think "Attack on the Resurrection Ship" is descriptive, succinct, and has a good ring. The fact that the actual combat didn't involve it is incidental - the Resurrection ship was the primary target, and it certainly ''was'' attacked. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 21 January 2006 (EST)\
:::"Battle of the Resurrection Ship" is just as descriptive and succinct when you think about it, and I personally believe that it has a bad ring. Funny thing was, remember when they were doing that recon mission near a moon? (orange one that they flew by in Res Ship Part I), I had hoped that would provide a location (like the Red Moon with Starbuck, etc) however, the actual battle did not take place near there at all. Of course, what WOULD we have called it? Old ''Red Dwarf'' joke about that. It's a "bluey-green planetoid"...they're ALL bluish-green planetoids! (no names, etc). At any rate, it wasn't just attacking that ship; it was a full scale battle between the Basestars and Battlestars. That said, Galactica vs. Pegasus should be deleted, because I intend on merging any relevant information into a short paragraph for "Battle of the Resurrection Ship"; I'm just busy and can't do a full write-up yet. Monday.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:32, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::My sentiment is that "Battle of ~" should be used with the location or nucleus of a battle. I agree with previous comments that the Resurrection Ship was effectively a stationary set piece around which the battle was waged. That it was destroyed does not disqualify it from functioning as a virtual location. The time and place of the battle were directly related to the presence of the Res Ship, so I believe it functcions as a location for our purposes. Insofar as that translates to S&C, shall we say "Battle of ~" necessitates a location, but that locations can include noncombatant targets? (Even if they possess mobility.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 22:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::On the matter of survivors, we absolutely should not assume that every off-screen casualty that happens between episodes in which a battle takes place was caused by said battle, although it certainly provides an upper limit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Oh, I just meant "follow the pattern we already established with "[[Battle of Kobol]]", that is, say in the casualty box "XX number at most; survivor count decressed by YY, but ZZ number were scene to not die because of the battle" etc. (well, shorter than that). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:28, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ages ==

As has come up [[Talk:Saul Tigh#Age|elsewhere]], I'd like to get the age thing going here. I think, by and large, ages should not be included. In the case of Saul Tigh (and any others who meet these criteria after), I think we should include it. Here's my plan: The numbers ''must'' be a link to a note at the bottom citing the source of the information. If that means including a bunch of math at the bottom, so be it. If it gets too big and complex, then we can move it to, say, "Saul Tigh/Age" or whatever. This way, the information is as transparent as we can make it, without muddying up the template with justifications right there. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:FYI, footnotes do not appear to work inside the character data template. I'm not sure why. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ship gender ==

Which pronouns shall we use for ships? I believe the normal convention is for friendly (for our purposes, colonial) vessels to be referred to as female, and enemy (Cylon) craft as male. IIRC this is consistent with Galactica-Boomer's terminology for the captured raider. (Thus, enemy craft repurposed to the colonials retain their masculine identity.) I would suggest that gender-neutral pronouns for ships should be avoided when possible, if only as a matter of taste. Thoughts? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:16, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I believe the current convention is the female for all ships ([[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Ships]]). I've not heard of using male for enemy ships. I do agree that gender neutrality ought to be avoided, if only to make it easier to translate into Spanish (I'm not very familiar with gender neutrality in that language, other than generally defaulting to masculine). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I've never heard of enemy ships being referred to in the masculine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I must have hallucinated it, then. Very well, feminine it is. (Boy do I feel silly for missing the item in Standards and Conventions. I did a search on "gender" but somehow glossed over the big ol' heading.) Thanks for the input. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:17, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but I think it makes sense to leave pronouns neutral when referring to ships in a general sense or on a class basis ("If it is armed, the Blackbird likely fires the same ammunition…") and make them feminine when referring to a ship by name (''Laura'' quickly proves her worth…). Kosher? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Sounds right. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:50, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Most navies refer to their vessels in the feminine. I do know that the Russian Navy does refer to its vessels in the masculine.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Ah! That must be where I got tangled up. I bet I read a cold war spy novel a decade ago and misremembered the convention. Thanks, Ricimer. Now... can anyone confirm that Galactica-Boomer called the captured Raider a he? If so, should all Autonomous Raiders be masculine? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 04:22, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== XHTML Compliance ==

So. We all (should) know that and are ''Bad''. However, it's (apparently) less common knowledge that all is bad as well. For the [http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ DOCTYPE] of this website, it should be . All tags must be closed in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional Doctype. I've also learned that <s> is ''equally'' bad for XHTML Documents. Apparently, the tag to be using is <del>. Just thought I'd put this up here and see if anyone had any thoughts before moving it to the S&C page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:08, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:This would be particularly relevant if we were using a strict doctype, which, god-willing, will never happen. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:11, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:: Well, yes, I think it would be a bad idea to expect all Wiki contributers to know how to follow strict and to take the time to do it (we use tables for a lot of our formatting stuff), but While we have the Transitional Doctype, I think we should try to do at least that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:33, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::: If bots are enabled, I could get a bot to sit on the server and go through the pages and change tags to XHTML and then also to Wiki code.

== Policy? ==
This is policy right? Because then we can add the <nowiki>{{Policy}}</nowiki> tag on the page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 18:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"==

I propose that we replace the term "[[Humano-Cylon]]" with "[[humanoid Cylon]]". The term didn't really expand much outside of BattlestarWiki; I've heard Humalon, BioCylon, Cylon Agents, etc. and other frequent combinations out there. That's not why I want to change it though. In light of the fact that there will soon be a Human/Cylon Hybrid on the show, and I've put a lot of thought into this over several days, and I can only come to the conclusion that leaving the terms as they are will lead to dreadful confusion unless changed. I mean, they were called "Humano-Cylons", "Humalons" because they're Cylons that are "like" Humans, but now we're going to have a Hybrid that is a genuine cross between the two on a cellular, nay, molecular level. I know it will take a lot of work (I'm willing to do it), but I think we should phase out "Humano-Cylon" because it was never canonical, and will be all too readily confused with the hybrid. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)
:I agree that Humano-Cylon should go. The term initially struck me as clumsy, though I didn't question it because it was so widespread in the Wiki. I wonder if we could get by with plain old "Cylon" when the context is clearly RDM; Centurions, after all, are usually called out as such. Within the world of the show, the usual term seems to be Cylon. I also feel we should avoid adopting other contrived portmanteaux (Humalon et al.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)
::That is a good point, and a surprisingly elegant solution. I approve. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:54, 24 January 2006 (EST)

On top of this, I think it's time that we created a page for the [[Cylon-Human Hybrid]]; info is gathering and Sharon's daughter is going to be a pivotal character eventually (consquently, I've heard that the later episode of Stargate SG-1 season 9 will focus on Vala Mal Doran (Claudia Black) returning with a "miracle pregnancy", unfortunately her daughter turns out to be the physical manifestation of the bad guys, the Ori, and she will be sort of the bad guys "messiah" figure in their 10th season. It makes you think...). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

And while I'm on the subject, I think that she should make separate character pages for Cylon "copies" that develop individual traits over time. For example, we should keep a main "Sharon Valerii" page, with stubs for the main articles for "Galactica-Sharon" and "Pegasus-Sharon". Also, Gina should probably have her own page separate from the main Number Six article, as she's differentiated into a separate character.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I also agree we should split the Cylon copies. Perhaps (using your example) the "Sharon Valerii" page might well be nothing more than a disambiguation, and contributers would be encouraged to link directly to "Sharon Valerii (Galactica)" or "Sharon Valerii (Caprica)". Migrating all the links would be a substantial project, but one I feel is worth taking, and sooner the better. As for naming convention - it might not work every time, but perhaps the location where that copy is first introduced? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::This is long, so forgive me, but there are important issues that change our nature that I cannot agree to.

::Let's deal with the terminology change first. I had my qualms about "humano-Cylon" when I first saw it, but it is an efficient term to differentiate these beings from robotic Cylons here, especially given that the show has not really furnished a unique term. "Cylon Agent" is the closest that the show has used, with "human models" and "Cylon humans" after that. ''Battlestar Wiki'' has many articles that use descriptive terms as placeholders in lieu of a canonical name: "[[Presidential security service]]", "[[Identification Tags]]", and "[[Colonial wireless alphabet]]" are other examples. "Cylon agent" can be used as a placeholder redirect if one is tired of typing it, but we need more reason than "we don't like the term" to change "Humano-Cylon" now, as it appears on many, ''many'' articles here. And frankly, it's grown large enough that purging it will be very difficult. Our naming conventions are here for a reason, so making exceptions for the Sharon Valeriis diminishes our effectiveness as an encyclopedia, which MUST NOT be ambiguous, strive to keep to the basic definition and not wallow about in subdefinitions as an unnecessary article into itself--which is what you are proposing. "Humano-Cylon" is ''very'' popular here, and what goes on in the "outside world" doesn't really matter in the context of maintaining this wiki, so long as others can use their own terms and we provide appropriate redirects to our article as appropriate. I understand the spirit of what you're suggesting, but we lack a sufficient "why", in my opinion. Although I see a good reasoning between what are "Cylons" in RDM and what are "robot Cylons" that can withstand further debate, I think we should adjust the wiki as the characters do: when the characters begin to see the Cylons with human traits and not a machine to be shut down, our data here should reflect it. Otherwise, differentiating them to any large degree would be like writing bios on the "Borg" drones from "Star Trek." No point, as they are all generally the same.

::Two: Sharon's baby has '''not been born yet'''. Do ''not'' assume it will come to term. Imagine the holy hell that the Cylons will unleash if they learn that it ''doesn't''. Imagine the political hell in the Fleet if it ''does''. Either way works well for the writers, so we can't make the assumption. Ron Moore has promised some radical changes for the Fleet at the end of this season, and much of this could involve that child to be. Once we know for certain that this hybrid is born and is even given a name, then a page is quite appropriate and necessary. But until then, creating an article for this or any other hybrids or proposed character to-be goes against our sourcing policies (it's speculation until shown in an episode) and is premature (no pun intended).

::Three: To differentiate between the Valerii's and other Cylon agents is asking for trouble at present. They are identical in creation and mission; if they begin to vary on that mission, a subarticle is written. The [[Number Six]] article shows at least three variations and it appears to work well. Now, a number of articles are becoming long, true. But, as a wiki, we haven't created a policy yet as to how to break up or concise such data as it relates to these character bios. We ''have'' worked out a process for the [[Cylons (RDM)]] and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article series, which could be adopted for the characters with some thought. Changes that are more POV or assumptive like these, and less in form to the wiki's overall format or mission are detrimental, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::I don't think the show has yet provided a canonical term to distinguish the "human models" from the more mechanical models. I think "Cylon Agent" would be a good placeholder/redirect, but that's based on the writing on a folder and not consistent adoption within the show. One thing that hasn't been established well (at least in my mind) is WHO the Cylons are. Are the humanoid-cylons the new, REAL cylons (with centurions, raiders, etc. serving their interests)? Or are all models part of a true "Cylon collective" (resistance is futile) where everybody is considered equally "Cylon". If the humano-Cylons prove to be the "real" Cylons, then I would see them taking more of a prominent role at Cylons (RDM). Until then, I think that any term we use is just serving as a placeholder.

:::Even if Sharon's offspring (I'm not sure if baby is the right word) comes to term and is born, I'm not sure that Cylon-human hybrids deserve an article of their own. Peanut butter gets an article, and jelly gets an article. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even get an article (being a distinct, important, and common combination of the other two). However, just because somebody once made a peanut butter and tuna sandwich doesn't mean that it necesarily would merit an article. The offspring would DEFINITELY merit its own article, but until proven otherwise would be a unique proof-of-concept. All information about her would represent the totality of what we know about the hybrids, until such time that more hybrids come into being. (That is if she even comes into being. Adama may yet "drown the baby in the pond.") --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::A note on the offspring: perhaps it would be fun to create a short, amusing-but-still-relevant biography page for the fetus ("prebiography"?), noting its (can we say "her" because Sharon said so?) unique physiological properties, Baltar and Six's fascination with her, political ramifications of her delivery or lack thereof. A nod, if you will, to the "life begins at conception" faithful. I realize such a page could easily become political, insulting, or trivial, but I think it's worth a shot. Treating the subject like a regular character bio affords plenty of oppurtunity for ironic humor as well, as with the [[Toaster]] article. Yeah? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:39, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::The Cylon-Human Hybrid article cannot be created until after the episode in which it is born. It is BattlestarWiki's firm policy to categorically deny the "life begins at conception" viewpoint and instead support the life at birth viewpoint. An embryo which is little more than a clump of cells, the potential for life, yes, but not life. Regardless, following the tenets [[Naturalistic science fiction]], BSG supports "realistic" ''science'', as opposed to "opinions". Creating the article ''before'' the child is born would undermine ''BattlestarWiki's'' established stance against "life begins at conception", and creating it before the birth would be like holding up a big sign saying "we support Life-At-Conception". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I hope I'm not stepping into a political debate here, because that is not my aim at all. But can you provide support for your claim that BattlestarWiki has a firm policy on this topic? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 15:00, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::''Battlestar Wiki'' has no policy on the matter of the status of a fetus, Ricimer. This is a ''non-sequitur'' that actually worsened your position, not reinforced it. In short: Don't make stuff up. Everyone here can see and (and in most cases, edit) all policies. That said, jumping down to new thread and clarification... --15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::No, no, sorry; I was being really sarcastic. Sorry, I thought everyone could tell. Well, if not, "that life at conception is a policy thing I just wrote was just a sarcastic joke". I appologize for the inconvenience. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:06, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::As for the Valerii problem... I think that's going to be a tricky issue. "Caprica" Valerii does seem to behave distinctly differently from "Galactica" Valerii, and both of those differently than the other "Caprica"/command Valerii. I'm not sure it has been definitively proven whether they are unique individuals, or whether they are just playing different roles based on what the mission calls for. Personally I like the current grouping by "model", though I might more seriously rethink if their individuality/uniqueness is eventually proven. I think "Downloaded" would be pretty decisive (if it hasn't been canceled as rumored).

:::Feel free to copy my sig to any of these if you need to repond to an individual issue. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

A few points to clarify:

'''One''': I didn't suggest this simply because I "don't like" the term "Humano-Cylon". I was actually okay with the continued use of it, until the Hybrids came along. The ''*ENTIRE*'' reason I have raised this issue of changing the name is officially "'''I think it will get confused with the Cylon-Human Hybrid'''". Just wanted to clarify that.

'''Two''': I did not expect the pages to be changed immediately, and I understand that Caprica-Sharon's daughter hasn't been born yet: The reason I ''put foward'' the issue now, is so that we could have a lenghty amount of time to debate the issue and set up parameters and rules for this change here, in advance, so there will be less confusion later. Never too early to debate. I wanted to get the ball rolling.

'''Three''': Regardling the popularity and practical removal of "Humano-Cylon": How do we know it was ever "very popular"? I only used it because it was the term that this wiki was already using when I got here. Curious, can we have a show of votes here of who actually "likes" the term enough to keep it? (largely irrelevant, sorry, I'm just saying; How can we quantify it as "popular", when in the earliest days ("In the Long-Long Ago"...) BattlestarWiki used that name and redirected all future references to these begins to that page. ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc''.

What I meant by stating that it's "not used much outsite of BattlestarWiki" is that I mean it isn't based on anything outside of this wiki, ***so we can feel free to change it without being fettered by external constraints. I mean that changing it will not contradict other material out there.

As for "practical removal", recently we gutted this entire wiki updating "Commander Adama" to "William Adama" following his promotion to Admiral. If such as pervasive name as Commander Adama can be replaced and revised, surely there will be not so great difficulty in replacing "Humano-Cylon" with "humanoid Cylon", etc. (That's my personal choice, but any other name that ''doesn't'' sound like "Humalon" or something (the Hybrid confusion, etc) would be okay after a vote).

'''Four''': The separation of Cylon copies with distinct personalities into different character pages. I was willing to ignore this through season 1, but after hearing about "Downloaded" I realized that we'd have ''two'' copies of Sharon, each distinct from both the other standard Sharon-copies AND each other, on the show. And the more I thought about it, the more I think they have finally reached the point where they need to be considered separate major characters with their own pages. ***Again, we can do this after "Downloaded" airs, I just wanted to get discussion started now, so we know what to do ahead of time. Yes, I did PLAY AROUND with creating separate pages for both two days ago (after which made the request here in standards and practices), but at the time I wanted to raise interest in the issue and experiment with how this would work.

Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:To Spencerian's points on terminology: (1) The lack of a solid canonical term is a valid argument for keeping the old term ''only until a new term is agreed upon''. Clearly we do not wish to frivolously or rashly change the Wiki; hence this discussion. (2) The difficulty of the task is not a disqualifier, as Ricimer has stepped forward to take it on, and I'm certain others of our cadre will pitch in. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could not a search-and-replace bot easily change such a unique term as "Humano-Cylon"? (3) I don't see how this represents an exception for Sharon Valerii. I believe we're talking about replacing the term globally. Can you elaborate on this point? (4) If you are waiting for the characters to realize cylons are not merely machines to be shut down, I assume you are referring to the mainstream colonial opinion. There are plenty of characters (Helo, Baltar, all of the Cylons, and [[Demand Peace]], who give them a bit more credit. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:57, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Thanks for the clariification. On the work front, of course, the changing of the terms throughout isn't an impossible undertaking, but note that once a term is in use, it's hard to stop. In the case of the Cylons of RDM, an article is already there. To make the changes, we have to go all the way for all pages or not at all to ensure that referencing info, as well as the info itself, remains consistent. Ricimer's point #4, which I've suggested on the Valerii page, using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/parent page where subarticles for supporting characters that have appeared should keep article sizes down while organizing data well. I'm all for this idea the more I think of it. "Sharon Valerii" is like a class of ship (all generally the same), but each ship has a characteristic identity (Boomer, Caprica-Valerii), thus the parent page and subarticles for all major players. Sorry if I confused you on my thoughts on this.

::The Cylons, be they truly biological and not to be treated as machine, are still the central adversary of the Colonials. While the characters can make their judgements on what they see the Cylons to be, we as wikipedians just report what we see, ultimately--we don't make the "news". In other words, if Adama (who runs the Fleet) sees the Cylons as a threat, they still have to be reported here in that light. Helo and others may have differing opinions, which should also be added. We must spin interpretation very cautiously and not to interpret it as fact. With that, I'm in favor of "Cylon agent" (the most commonly used term in the show, IMO) for a H-O replacement, but still, "Cylons (no suffix)" may also have merit. Current aliases are still OK, but the convention would be for that. I also suggest that we form parent/child pages for each of the Cylons (see, I'm doing it already now that I understand the subtle point) to avoid confusion and oversized articles. This also prevents issues with over hyphenations: Picon-Valerii, Tauron-Valerii, Cheese Whiz-Valerii..you get the idea. And when/if the baby is born, she gets her own page as she will be quite unique (I hope). To keep from this thread going crazy again, let's go for support/oppose tags at your replies from here, with your suggestions on how or what to do with terms and page design. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Proposal===
There will be no special term for the human models. All references to Cylons in the Re-imagined series will be taken to refer to the humans, unless prefaced with "Centurion" or other relevant distinguisher. This is in line with the show's own usage, and avoids creating a non-canon term.

The article [[Humano-Cylon]] will be deleted. Its content will be merged into [[Cylon Models]], the individual overview pages for each cylon model, and a new page on potential cylon agents, with the previously discussed "whitelist" and "graylist" sections, as relevant.

Links to Humano-Cylon will be redirected to the [[Cylons (RDM)]] article cover-page (which will be spruced up, but probably remain fairly spare), or to various subsections, as appropriate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Counter-Proposal===
The human-appearing models of Cylon are indeed distinct enough that they deserve a special term. All references to Cylons in the re-imagined series don't necessarily refer to the humanoid models (we have no idea how these things are deployed, and in context, whe Lt. Gaeta shouts "Cylons incoming!" he's not talking about humanoid Cylons floating in space). Plent of times on the show they have made a distinction between the "mechanical variety" and "the human variety", so the "Proposal" would not, in fact, be "in line" with the show's own usage.

The article "[[Humano-Cylon]]" will remain entirely intact, but have its ''name'' changed to something else (my suggestiong would be "humanoid Cylons", but someone else might be able to come up with a better name and some ideas were tossed around above, etc). The contents of "Humano-Cylons" will not be merged. The ''already existing'' overview Character pages for the humanoid Cylon models will remain intact as they are now. There will be no new page for potential humanoid Cylons; it will remain a sub-section of the article dealing with the humanoid Cylons (as it is now). If by "whitelist" and "graylist" it is meant "people we suspect of being humanoid Cylons" and "people who it has been proven could not possibly be humanoid Cylons", such sub-headings will be added into the list of suspected Cylon Agents on "Humanoid Cylons".

Links to "Humano-Cylon" will be redirected to the new term ("Humanoid Cylon", for example, pending consensus on name). Humanoid Cylons models that have developed distinct personalities that have made them unique Characters on the show will be separated into having their own Character pages, while a stubb about these individual copies will be made in the article dealing with that particular "model" (as well as a link). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:38, 25 January 2006 (EST)

===Discussion of Proposals===
I think we may be trying to decide too many things at once. I think it would be much easier to make this decision in a couple of steps:

: A. Move all discussion of creating copy-specific pages on specific models to [[Talk:Sharon Valerii#Keeping Track of the Valeriis]], just so it doesn't get so confusing here. Really, that's the only character we're considering doing this to and once we make a decision on her, we can make that a policy without much discussion here.

: B. Do we want to change the term?

: C. What do we want to change it to?

: D. What does that entail?/Plan of Action/Enact PoA.

Now, I would not be opposed to changing the term. I agree it could be a bit confusing when/if Sharon delivers us a little halfling. One thing that's not been brought up when speaking of work load is the fact that not all references to Humano-cylons are links. So they'll be harder to track down than, say, all occurances of "Thrace, Kara". So, there'll be a lot of hand-searching, if you take my meaning, to be done. That being said, I don't think that's a reason not to change, really. What we ''do'' here is edit stuff.

On the point of C (really we could do my steps B and C together, without ''too'' much confusion), I support the change to simply Cylon. In a vast majority of cases context will make it readily apparent whether we're talking about Simon or a raider. In the few cases where we'll have to be more specific, then I think we could use "humanoid Cylon" or a "human-type Cylon" or "a Cylon of the human variety" (if you're not into the whole "brevity" thing) or any number of other circumlocutions that need not be standardized. As for changing the article name, we could make it "Cylon (human type)". I think it should continue to be an independant article because raiders and basestars have articles of their own... We just don't know what to call it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:What about putting it on the front page of [[Cylons (RDM)]]? We could list capsule descriptions of the known models there, just like The Twelve Colonies lists the individual colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:21, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:For me, part of the elegance of using the simple term "Cylon" is that it doesn't limit itself to the human-looking ones, but that context will take care of that for us nearly every time. Clearly, "cylons approaching" does not mean space-walking humanoids. But neither does "Tigh is a Cylon" imply Tigh may be a centurion, or a Basestar. Let's give folks some credit. Also, I must have been confused - I didn't realize we were only discussing branching the pages for Sharon. I think at the very least, Baltar's-Psychosis-Six and Gina have different enough agenda to merit different pages. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:: I may have mis-understood the issue of splitting, then, but I think it's different from adopting a replacement for "Humano-cylon", so I'd rather talk about it in another place, even if it's just further down on this page. As there's another place already in use, why not consolidate discussion to that place? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:23, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''Dicussion moved from [[Talk:Main Page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

Hello, I'm new and my edits have so far been of the proofreading type (that's what I'm good at), and I've noticed a particular area of inconsistency in commas/periods and quotation marks. Since it has been decided that we shall prefer American spellings, perhaps we should also use American punctuation style, which places commas and periods inside quotation marks. I have seen them this way a few places, but I've mostly seen the British style used, which places commas and periods outside the quotation marks. I don't care either way, but I think consistency is good so there should be a guideline one way or the other. [[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 08:40, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: IMO British style is much, much easier, both to write and to read. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:43, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Then perhaps we should declare "British style" the rule so that those of us who fret over punctuation can change the non-British occurrences to match.[[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 10:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::Welcome to the wiki, Bunchofpants. You've noted a significant inconsistancy we do, and I'm a bit guilty as well. Punctuation ''should'' (based on my experience) be within quotations (such as, "Kara, you're just crazy."). But, when dealing with episode references in parentheses, our convention is to place the punctuation after the episode reference, outside of the quotes. (Tyrol says "Put the gun down" ([[Fragged]]).) This convention, I think, is fine. However, in sentences without episode references, the punctuation should be inside. I'll need to check our policies, where, if we don't make up our own policy, we tend to stick with Wikipedia policy. Another administrator may also have an opinion to this. So that others can chime in, we should move this discussion to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

This is, I think, probably because we're on the internet. Apparently, I think according to the hacker slang dictionary which I don't have time to find a link to, it is very, very common amongst prolific internet users to use the British style, not because we're all Anglophiles, but because we tend to have a large cross section with the computer science community. Basically, if the period is not part of the quote, you don't put it so that the reader can tell ''exactly'' what goes in the quotes. Especially in help menus for *NIX systems, that use it so that you know the command is "hup" or whatever, rather than "hup." which would be wrong if "hup" were the actual command. Anyway... I like this system. The end. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:27, 5 February 2006 (EST) (Post Script: Let's allow a few days for discussion. Maybe move this to S&C? ''I HATE EDIT CONFLICTS'')

== After Questions...now Analysis? ==

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

: Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:: At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)
::I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::: I think we should shoot speculation as often as we find it, except where it is clearly marked. And I don't think we should let it become rampant. We moved all the Cylon Agent speculation stuff off of each character's page and onto a speculation page, for instance. I don't want to get into encouraging speculation on every single episode page. I like the Purge and Clense idea posed above by someone who didn't sign their post. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:29, 18 March 2006 (CST)

:::: The unsigned post was me, and the lack of signature an oversight. Sorry :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Although I agree that Question sections need '''extensive concision''' as we saw on LDYB II, one of the strengths of BattlestarWiki is that we have Questions and ''probable answers based on evidence''; if we remove ''all'' answers as was done on the recent revision to LDYB II, we remove one of the ''greatest'' features of ''BattlestarWiki''. I feel that answers to questions should be kept shorter than 2 lines, but so long as they stay on one line, and we don't run into a debate back and forth of like 5 things, we should keep them. And if there is a debate it goes to Analysis. I am adamant about this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: If a question has a probable answer based on evidence, then it simply isn't a question any more :-) I'm OK with the idea that we use the Question section to gather answers and possibly gain Analysis points that way, but once we have those answers, the questions should be moved or removed (or, if the answers are purely speculative, the answers purged).

: I also disagree that Analysis should be used for debate. There is no section of the encyclopedic pages that should be used for debate. That's what Talk pages are for. Analysis does not mean, "This is where we nitpick the episode and each others' points to death". It should ultimately read like one person analyzing the episode. Someone suggested it should even be reformatted at some point into a narrative rather than bulleted presentation, and I agree.

: It's not that I don't agree that one of the strengths of this sort of site is bringing fans together to talk out and even occasionally to nitpick. It's just that I think that's what Talk pages are for, not encyclopedic pages. --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No. The point is that we aren't bringing up "speculation" but that we are pointing out facts, back and forth. For example, "Was Cain lying to Starbuck about wanting to take back the Colonies?" could be followed by "Cain has been seen to be manipulative" followed by "Cain also honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons", etc. Yes, there are "Questions" and it ''remains'' a questions even if we offer ''insight'' into it. No, we should not move the questions once these points have been raised. Analsis is not officially "debate" but it is what it's name implies; "Analaysis" i.e. counterpoints and so forth, based on Fact; that is, not just listing our opinions, but weighing the facts against each other. Either way, the rules are loose when it comes to Analysis. '''No, it should not be moved into a narrative format; that's more confusing than a point by point bulleted list'''. No, this is not what Talk pages are for. Talk pages are just for discussion about what should go on the front, but let me reiterate; '''Remove this feature of the questions and you would GUT the best feature of BattlestarWiki'''. ------>I want the section on the front of this article of Standards and Questions describing how we handle Questions to be revised.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: I think, Merv, that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what the best feature of this Wiki is. And it's odd, because from what I've seen so far, you're actually a provider of what I think the best feature actually is: solid, detailed, well-researched and defensible information about the series, its stories, and its characters. The example you offer is a good one, but the moment good insight is provided for the question like that, I feel it could be moved to Analysis. Or, in this specific example, edited together to remain an unanswered question, but without the sense that people are "discussing" something, which has no place on encyclopedic pages: "On the one hand, Cain can be manipulative. On the other hand, Cain honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons. So: was Cain lying about wanting to take back the Colonies?" When all is said and done, if the Wiki is dedicated to Neutral Point of View, then encyclopedic pages need not to sound like they're arguing with themselves.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 22:41, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:In case there is any confusion about what I am saying we need it's; "Let's just keep doing what we've BEEN doing, and when a Question section like LDYB II's gets a little messy, ''clean it up as the situation requires''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::It seems like these sections (in both Espisode and Character guides) are getting very large and when someone is trying to save even a minor edit we will get an Overflow error. You might have seen it before. http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#Error_Message It might be better to place both of these sections of new pages. (i.e. LBYB, II, Question/Analysis). --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Before I resume my attack on the "Questions" section, I would appreciate it if other frequent editors and admins could chime in explicitly on whether we still like the guidelines I posted to the Standards and Conventions page, as discussed on LYOB II's talk page, or whether more people feel Merv is right and we shouldn't be quite so strict as I've proposed (and executed on LYOB I and II)... I would prefer not to take silence for assent only to have a bunch of stuff reverted later because it was widely thought I was too quick with my knife :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:I guess part of if really depends on if it is just "Questions" or if it is "Unanswered Questions". I don't mind the occassional answer, but it's the ones three deep with conflicting/argumentative answers ([[The Captain's Hand#Questions]]) that bug me. But I guess just shifting them down to analysis doesn't really change anything. I'm torn. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:44, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:I haven't commented much because I agree with practically everything you've said on this subject. It's been bothering me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to tackle the issue. I congratulate you for having the fortitude to take this on — you have my unconditional support on this one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:40, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Disambiguation Location ==

We should note that Disambiguation for pages that have more than one meaning should go on the top line of the page, below any "Global" template areas, such as delete, but above such Templates as "Episode Guide", "Character Data", and "Battle Template" area so the text stand out more. Otherwise it is cramped on between the left coloum and the right table and seems like part of the article, rather than Disambiguation data. It should also be tabed once and always italized. '''Comments?''' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:09, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Your choice of words seems very presumptious. I would have said something like, "I like the look of one tab and italics" or "The current convention seems to be..." or whatever, rather than being so proscriptive. I agree that we probably need a standard on this. One tab and italics is fine with me. Just noting that your attitude seems very... controntational. Does anyone else think a different formatting is better? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, that formatting is what I use and prefer, at any rate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::The convention I've always used is the same convention at Wikipedia. Tab one and italicize. So say we all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:16, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== Cast pages Overview section ==

Most of the cast articles have a section titled "Overview" instead of just using the first paragraph as the overview like normal wiki articles. I want to change them all. Any objections?--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 22:24, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:Plah. I just noticed all the articles are this way, even [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I|episodes]]. Withdrawn. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 00:36, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Template Font Size and Design ==

I don't like the size of the font in most of the templates. That's my option of course. So I wanted to bring it up. [[Template:Ship_Data|This template of the Ship Data]] is a good example of the size of the text that I think is better than the bold, large text. Also we should always wikicode the templates. I put up a number of examples on how they are created. Also for the top of these type of templates we should maybe have the red bar along. Here is a [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&oldid=40890 link] of an old verion and then there the version that is active right now which is [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&direction=next&oldid=40890 this]. The Small text keeps everything balanced with the artcile font.

Template that would be effected would be:

*Episode_Data
*Ship_Data
*Star_Data (Being Renamed)
*Character_Data
*Book_Data

Just a thought... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:24, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Succession Boxes==
Anything with only one person in a box, like "Laura Roslin" as the ''only'' entry in a succession box for Secretary of Education, is redundant and excessive; it's not necessary, clutters up the page, and it simply makes little sense to do so. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:25, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I mistakenly posted this on the front page first (oops); this is my proposed addition:

"Succession boxes, such as those for holders of a political office or a command position aboard a ship, should not be created unless at least two separate articles can be linked to using such a box". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:If a goverment is supposed to be able to be listed in any part of someone's bio (i.e. We could do Billy and Toni as People who were aides to President Roslen and then Felix Gata to Giaus Baltar) on '''Succession''' boxes, including Vice-President, or Assitants to the President of the Colonies, or CAG, XO, or CO, or anything that has an order, it should be included. A great example is [[Lee Adama]]'s page, and I didn't even add the other ones; An '''''Admin''''' did. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::Some of these simply do not make sense, however: why make Gaeta have a box that says "assistant to President Baltar" when he's the ''only one''? The entire concept of adding in extra link boxes is to keep the navigation ''more'' easy to use, but this has been taken to the point that it's just cluttering things up without adding anything truly useful or necessary; I mean the links to Baltar are already in there, or in his character box as a former position. It is impractical and unwieldy. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:35, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::People love timelines and orders. To get the quick skimmy of things, people look at these. They have been used all over Poiltical pages sorting out who has had what. So maybe we should delete the ones that have just One person attached to it? There is no harm in it being there no more than the "Job" section in the Character template. Guess what? If I were a normal person, I like the boxes, because it answers an interesting question, has there been any secertary's in goverment thus far other than the President's spot. Maybe one of these days we will see a show where there is a meeting with all the members. She even talks about it in Minisersi where she knew all 52 before here. (was it 52? can't remember.) Someone had to be before her and before Adars Administration. My edit was also there and admins been on the site before you came along an removed it. It seemed they had no problem with it being there. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:41, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::Not having it answers the question even quicker. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm with Merv on this one. Having looked at some code for various templates, I see that there's a trick that can be used for hiding sections that don't actually have any data. That should be used here.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 08:01, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::::That's is incredibly cool UncleMikey; I didn't know the wikicode could let us do that. Reall cool; I agree with Uncle Mikey's idea. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:44, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::::I'm still not entirely sure how it works. It appears to actually be a CSS trick rather than a true WikiCode trick. Take a look at the CharacterData template, tho', and then experiment with it in a sandbox or on your own userpage (as I did in mine). Leave stuff out of the template-invocation...the line is completely omitted. Very slick.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:49, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:''Copied from [[Talk:Laura Roslin]]:''
:I'd say it's okay to have an unfilled succession box where it helps to illustrate the career of a particular character - that is, if they have completed succession boxes, they could also have unfilled ones as appropriate (thus, for example, we can see Baltar's progression from Caprican delegate to VP to President without needing to know who preceded or succeeded him as the Caprican delegate). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::But Peter that is redundant with the "roles" section of the template at the top of the article. I think we should not do it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:45, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Anastasia Dualla/Archive 1

2006-03-26T14:07:28Z

UncleMikey: /* XO of ''Pegasus'' */

Sooooo...anybody else completely stumped as to how this whole wiki thing is going to go now? [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:20, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Meaning what exactly?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Well, just how everything's been turned on its head and it's hard to know what the characters' roles are now. And we're not going to know exactly what happened in the finale until we're able to determine it from the next season's episodes. Mostly, I was just shellshocked when I wrote that and I CANNOT believe they're hanging us out to dry until October. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 01:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==XO of ''Pegasus''==
The relevant info from [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II (podcast)]] (Act 6, yet to be transcribed): 
Eick: Now we never talked about this, but is she the XO here? Do we think she's become the Tigh of the ''Pegasus''? 
Moore: I think she has. I think that's something that happened in the year off and I think that essentially so many people left ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' that they really are on skeleton crews and, y'know, somebody like Dualla that went to ''Pegasus'' to be with Lee, presumably, and we'll deal more with— we have episodes that deal more with the circumstances of that in season three, and how that happened and why, but the idea was she essentially went over there and more people kept leaving and leaving, and Lee made her the XO.

I think this is pretty clear, given the source, so we can probably get rid of "presumed" from the succession box. I do want to point out that she'd pretty much have to be a captain or higher to be in the XO position (Captain Aaron Kelly filled in as XO while Tigh was in command). For Dualla to go from PO2 (E-5) to Captain (O-4) in a year would demand both a very fast series of promotions, and a very high rate of attrition within the officer ranks. I don't think it's ''completely'' implausible, but it's hard to imagine that ''Pegasus'' didn't have a single officer left with any command competence. It's also probably not good military practice to have one's significant other in a directly subordinate position, but Dualla's strong willed enough (c.f. Home, Part I) that it's probably not a huge problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:56, 24 March 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. That is pretty clear that we can get rid of '''presumed'''. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:21, 24 March 2006 (CST)
:If normal military protocol were still being strictly followed, you'd be right about the promotions and the relationship issues. However, this is no longer a remotely normal situation. One of the interesting differences between Original Series protocol and RDM Series protocol is that the Original Series treated battlestars like fiefdoms, and it was perfectly normal for Adama and Cain to have their children serving with them; like a feudal lord, Adama was both a military and a civilian leader (he was on the Quorom at the same time as being Commander of ''Galactica''). At the outset, the RDM Series was modeling Colonial military protocol on US protocol -- strict separation of military and civilian concerns, and civilian control of the military, even ''in extremis''. That disciplined, constitutional and republican (small 'r' deliberate) approach now appears to be breaking down because it's increasingly impractical to enforce.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:35, 25 March 2006 (CST)

::Still, isn't it odd that Bill Adama had at least two officers serving under him (Tigh and Helo) while Lee had to promote an enlisted crewman to be his XO? I would think the most appropriate way to distribute personnel would have been for Bill to loan Helo to Lee. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:25, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:::Alot can happen in a year. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:32, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:::I haven't seen the eps yet (insert usual excuses here) but my impression was that Tigh went planetside. Really, of the people we '''know''' are officers, there aren't very many left (except on the technicality that all pilots, however green, are officers). Which is one of the things that's going to make S3 interesting -- all the old relationships are really totally jumbled up, now, and a lot of the people Adama had come to depend upon are no longer available to him. Setting aside the rest of the fleet for the moment, Adama has taken Galactica out to sea (as it were) without his senior CPO, who was also the best mechanic and manager of mechanics available (Tyrol), along with at least some of the flight deck crew; without trusted bridge officers like Tigh and Gaeta; and without trusted pilots like Thrace and his son (albeit the latter for different reasons). Unless there was some degree of conscription/coercion involved (not my impression), he's left with a purely voluntary corps who are still on board not because of their skills or specialties, but because of their scepticism in the viability of New Caprica and/or their dedication to the idea that New Caprica still needs a defence.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:43, 25 March 2006 (CST)
::::Tigh only went planetside during the scenes we saw, so he was with the fleet for a full year before then. I'm not trying to have an argument about the merits of the writing, which I don't think are in question; I'm just pointing out that it's a little bit weird. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:47, 25 March 2006 (CST
:::::OK, then I agree, it's a little odd. Since we're apparently going to get at least some of the gaps filled in, hopefully we'll get to see the thought process behind the staffing decisions.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:51, 25 March 2006 (CST)

I think that given the evidence yes, Dualla is the "highest ranking officer under Apollo on Pegasus" and, thus, "technically" the XO, but I mean, she's the XO of a "skeleton crew"...I mean on Star Trek TNG, ''Doctor Crusher'' commanded the ship during "Descent, Part II" when there was a skeleton crew on board. --->For practical matters, in terms of the XO of Pegasus link bar at the bottom, yeaaaaaahh it's fuzzy, but, mulling it over, technically yeah she is the XO even though it's not such a big deal. But yeah. I'm all for leaving her in the XO succession link bar. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:16, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:Not trying to be combative, but using Trek as an example or counter-example of anything regarding military protocol is a bad idea. Considering that the production staff could not itself agree whether Starfleet was or was not a military organisation in the first place (Roddenberry was adamant that it was not), Trek's grasp of how real militaries historically have worked was extremely slippery. It could get away with a lot simply by saying, "This is the shiny happy future. Things change!" ''Galactica'' can get away with '''some''' similar slipperyness because this isn't "our" culture, but enough effort has been made to make it cognate with our culture that there are limits to what they can do and not have "bullshit" called. That said, having Dee as XO, even if merely by default, doesn't exceed those limits, but only because of the deliberate one-year gap that leaves room for all sorts of explanations.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 08:07, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-03-26T14:01:25Z

UncleMikey: /* Succession Boxes */

Talk:Anastasia Dualla/Archive 1

2006-03-25T18:51:41Z

UncleMikey: /* XO of ''Pegasus'' */

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2006-03-25T18:48:48Z

UncleMikey: /* Should we Delete "Analysis and Questions"? */

Talk:Anastasia Dualla/Archive 1

2006-03-25T18:43:20Z

UncleMikey: /* XO of ''Pegasus'' */

Talk:Anastasia Dualla/Archive 1

2006-03-25T17:35:45Z

UncleMikey: /* XO of ''Pegasus'' */

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-03-23T21:31:08Z

UncleMikey:

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-03-23T00:13:06Z

UncleMikey:

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-22T22:45:15Z

UncleMikey: /* International characters */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:I posted up something in [[Battlestar_Wiki:Bots]]. I am currenly going over a bot's code to make sure all the changed that would be needed are done. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:19, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Ack, sorry about that. Alien bimbos took my brain, since they lost Spock's. (As you can see, it has been returned.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:58, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Alien bimbo brain thieves happen :-) When the wiki is ready for customers, I'll post the link in my user page :-) Thanks for the help!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 16:45, 22 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-22T22:20:50Z

UncleMikey: /* International characters */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:I posted up something in [[Battlestar_Wiki:Bots]]. I am currenly going over a bot's code to make sure all the changed that would be needed are done. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:19, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Ack, sorry about that. Alien bimbos took my brain, since they lost Spock's. (As you can see, it has been returned.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:58, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Alien bimbo brain thieves happen :-) When the wiki is ready for customers, I'll post the link in my user page :-) Thanks for the help!

User talk:Laineylain

2006-03-22T21:57:14Z

UncleMikey: Ah-hah!

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, Laineylain. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Laineylain|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:44, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:Excellent transcript work. Could always use more help there.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:04, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Thanks. Sorry it took a while to reply. I would like to transcribe the podcast for Lay Down Your Burdens Part 2. Both Ron Moore and David Eick are in the podcast. Would it be ok for me to use "R:" and "D:" whenever each one speaks? I don't know what the conventions are for when there are 2 speakers in 1 podcast. Thanks again. -- [[User:Laineylain|Laineylain]] 00:15, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::We go with "RDM" and "Eick".--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:16, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::::Thanks. -- [[User:Laineylain|Laineylain]] 00:17, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Podcast Transcripts ==
Thanks for your work on these! We are WAY behind, but I'm hoping we can make some headway on them between now and October. I'm not cut out for transcribing, as I try to capture every um, ah, y'know (all the fillers), which drastically slows me down (especially since those aren't supposed to be transcribed anyway). I try to help out with the verifying, though, where the perfectionism doesn't slow me down as much. Anyway, thanks again! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:33, 13 March 2006 (CST)
:You're very welcome. I'm part of the [http://community.livejournal.com/battlestar_blog LiveJournal battlestar_blog community]. One of the members is deaf and wanted to know what was on RDM's podcasts (around the time when battlestarwiki was down due to server problems). I volunteered to help transcribe an episode and email it to her, but in the meantime battlestarwiki was brought back online so I posted the transcripts here. Great work on the verifications, SV! I really appreciate it! -- [[User:Laineylain|Laineylain]] 12:59, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Ah-hah! ==

I saw you add me over on LiveJournal, but couldn't figure out at the time how you knew who I was. Then I saw the Recent Changes today and saw you here, as well :-) One fewer mystery in my life!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:57, 22 March 2006 (CST)

User:UncleMikey

2006-03-22T21:54:13Z

UncleMikey:

{{Character Data|
|photo=http://www.melm.org/~mikey/gallery2/d/449-2/IMG_0171.JPG
|age=36
|colony=Minnesota
|birthname=Michael Scott Shappe
|callsign=Uncle Mikey
|death=
|parents=Alive and kicking
|siblings=Younger sister
|children=Do cats count?
|marital status=Married
|role=Battlestar Wikipedian
|rank=Hey, I bathed today!
|actor=Ernest Borgnine
|cylon=Yup. You found me out.
|name=Uncle Mikey
}}

Uncle Mikey is a long-standing fan of Star Trek, Babylon 5, Doctor Who and both versions of Battlestar Galactica. In the Old Days of USENET, he was founder and moderator of rec.arts.startrek.reviews and its related TREK-REVIEW-L mailing list, and of the B5-REVIEW-L mailing list.

These days, he can mainly be found rambling on in his [http://belmikey.livejournal.com LiveJournal] or at [http://button.melm.org What Happens When I Press This Button?], his own blog.

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-03-22T20:30:34Z

UncleMikey:

Nobody talks about me :-)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-03-22T20:20:10Z

UncleMikey: /* After Questions...now Analysis? */

Because of their length, individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.
As further discussions are concluded, please move them to the archive as well, in order to keep this page topical and readable. If the first archive threatens to exceed 32 kilobytes, please create a new one. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]] for details.

'''Previous discussions:'''

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Verb Tense|Verb Tense]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards|Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Signing Your Work|Signing Your Work]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Spelling|Spelling]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Single-name Address|Single-name Address]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Episode Links and Formatting|Episode Links and Formatting]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters|Proposed Guidelines / Speculative Matters]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Quorum of Twelve|Quorum of Twelve]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Namespaces|Namespaces]]

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02|Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02#Disambiguation|Disambiguation]]


----

== Image Sizes ==

I tend to think that images that are whole-screen captures (and thus letterbox dimensions) should be about 300px wide. This is, however, based entirely on how that looks on my browser window, which is pretty large, but not maximized on a 1280x1026 resolution. So that might look horrid on some other screen. Anyway, with that in mind, I resize all my full-screen captures to be 600px wide since that's a nice two times what I think they should be viewed at. Should I be even thinking this way, or should I just be telling the articles to be thumbs and set my preferences for larger thumbs? In the case of cropped screen-caps, though, I think 300px is too wide, or rather, often too tall. How do others think on this? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:21, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:Yes, use your preference settings for this. FWIW, I'm a fan of judicious cropping. It helps make smaller thumbs more legible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:28, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:: If you're trying to illustrate something specific, sure, cropping is needed in most cases. However, for episode pages and, I think, when trying to show a scene, the whole screen is good for its sense of context. I could be wrong. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:09, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Image Credit ==

Okay... Most images are gonna be screen caps we get from the shows. In which case the credit should go directly to the SciFi Channel, SkyOne Network or Universal Studios. The question is, which one? Or should it be all three? Or does Universal own the two channels and so saying "Cedit: SciFi/SkyOne" is enough? Or... What do you guys think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 21 September 2005 (EDT)
: Universal Studios. They own the copyright. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:26, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
:: Following wikipedia's example, we don't need to credit image copyrights in-text, do we? It should be enough to note copyright status on the image's description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:27, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic ==

It's not very -o-Matic, is it? ;o) Anyway, I think we need a standard for how they're formatted. I prefer the following:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."

:--''Rank and Name in Italics'' ("Episode Name")

It would also be nice to figure out how to go and look at quotes entered for days other than the current day. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:00, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

::As far as looking at previous quotes, that's a Joe question, though it would be welcome. Joe mentioned that the template info has to be added manually, but a creative wikipedia might work something out from a large database. At first I added at most 2 lines as a quote, but now I stick to one quote. I think the style you noted worked well (it did for my two contributions this week), so let's see if we all say so. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:50, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, if you want to keep track of all the quotes, why not just add them to [[:Category:Quotes]]? Theoretically, every quote should then be linked from that category page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:44, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: However, it's a bit late for quotes already put up, no? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:49, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Wait. Is [[Quotes|this page]] automated somehow? If so, then a Quotes category is kind of moot. I remember looking at it a while ago, though, and it having no date information and just a single quote in it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:04, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

On second thought, I prefer this:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."
:--Rank and Name in Normal (''Episode Name'')

For full exchanges I think something like this would work:

:'''Rank and Name 1:''' Humorous battle banter aimed at Speaker 2.
:'''Rank and Name 2:''' Scathing insult.
:'''Name 1:''' Pithy retort.
:--''Episode Name''

What do you guys think of this? If no one replies in a few days, I'll start soliciting opinions on people's talk pages and via AIM. After a few more days, I'll simply make an executive decision and put this policy up. I think it would be best to link it at the head of the [[Quotes]] page, too. When the time comes. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:05, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

::Day, I've been adapting that format (per your original thoughts) and I find it works well. My only problem is insuring a proper break between the quote(s) and the name and episode for single-quotation blocks. I think this thing has languished long enough to put up a quick vote or 5-day consensus/no-objection period, where we can make this the practice (and retrofit all recorded quotes to match if necessary). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 1 November 2005 (EST)

::: COnsider this that period. Also, do you mean you like the break, but you're concerned about adding it for some reason that I do not understand, or do you mean that your dislike tags? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:46, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:::: Okay. I'm about to put my above policy up. I think I'll have to play with it for a bit to get the display format the way I want it for ease of copying and for users who know nothing of HTML. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:02, 11 November 2005 (EST)

::::: I would suggest putting this policy (when it is finalized) and a note about not repeating quotes right on the [[Quotes]] page where the "This is a list of quotes..." statement is. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 19:59, 17 November 2005 (EST)

I noticed that people have started putting in quotes from the original series. I think this is great but in terms of standardization I would follow the same idea as used on the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha wiki]:
* If it is an original series episode, quote as [[TOS]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a 1980 series episode, quote as [[1980]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a re-imagined series episode, quote as [[RDM]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
[[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 13:46, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Not a bad idea, Nwobkwr, but it might get cumbersome. Might I suggest we use only the "TOS" flag for TOS and 1980 episodes, and leave the RDM episodes as-is? This gives a slant to the current series, but then, we will have many more quotes from RDM than from the old series since transcripts of the TOS/80 shows are far less available than the current. It also saves on visual complexity. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:30, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::I think we should put the dab in the episode credit, and only when there are episodes in each series with the same title. (basically, "The Hand of God".) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:53, 30 November 2005 (EST)

Another thing to consider. In light of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Quote_of_the_Day/09_30&curid=3654&diff=19411&oldid=19408 this] quote, should we allow non-BSG quotes on a longer-than-one-shot basis? I think it would be okay, but others (obviously) don't. I'd like a few more opinions and some actual discussion, rather than just editing. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:00, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Links ==

So, in my opinion, the first occurance of nearly any proper noun should be a link. Even the thing an article is about. This means that the first occurance of an article's topic will be in bold, which I think is nice. For longer articles, I think linking becomes kind of discretionary. If someone hasn't been mentioned (or linked, maybe) in a while, then they could/should be linked. Also, episode credits at the end of an event description should ''always'' be linked. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:19, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:Using links-to-self to bold title text is discouraged by the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles|Manual of Style]]. In general I think we should defer to Wikipedia for guidance except where we feel a justified need to explicitly contradict them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:02, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ah. I think that's probably wise. Should we, then, manually '''bold''' them (or, in the case of ship names, '''''bold-italicize''''' them), or leave it out all together? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:40, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Manually bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:41, 2 October 2005 (EDT)

== HTML ==

I, ah, didn't think this was exactly necessary, but, uh... I think, now, it might be. Do we need to make a note about preffering <nowiki>''</nowiki> to ? I see various posts that have several changes, but leave the HTML intact. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:51, 21 October 2005 (EDT)
: Agreed. Wiki sytnax should always supersede HTML sytnax. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:29, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
: Adendum: By the way, I created two templates: {{tl|s}} and {{tl|u}} for {{s|striking out}} and {{u|underlining text}}, respectfully. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:36, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::HTML isn't exactly tasteful, but isn't it preferable to templates? HTML and wikisyntax both retain their formatting if moved to another wiki, but anything formatted with templates won't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:17, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::: Good point, Peter... Maybe "hacking" MediaWiki might be an option, so as to create wikisyntax for underlining? Yes, this would undoubtedly create similar problems, but if a patch was submitted to the MediaWiki developers then they may introduce it (or something like it) into future versions of the software. Just a thought... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:58, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: What would you have the Wiki Markup be? Underscores and dashes, maybe? Might be dangerous, but perhaps it would require two of each in a row? Or three? I was thinking that _underline_ would render underline and that -strike- would render <s>strike</s>. However, I don't want underscores to mess up URLs or for strike-outs to mess up use of the em-dash, which is often substituted by the double-en dash (--). I'd just as soon use the HTML tags (except that it would get in the way of validating the HTML of the Wiki in XHTML 1.0 Strict, if that's a concern). Maybe we could use !!underline!! and !!!strike!!! or something. Ohoh! What about ``underline`` and ```strike```. Of course... you could go nuts and <nowiki>'''''`````italic bold underline strike`````'''''</nowiki> for '''''<s>italic bold underline strike</s>'''''. Sounds like a fighting more from some anime. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:52, 23 October 2005 (EDT)

::::: The biggest one I saw a problem was with the Overview's in each of the episode's. I was seeing all the time. So.. that's my two cents. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 17:59, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Verb Tense 2 ==

While it may be a "convention" within fiction articles about an episode, the verb tense issue is not using present-tense within an encyclopedia unless something is still ongoing. As I posted in the main page talk page and on a user whom made me aware of the verb tense issue, I posit that this convention be changed for the actual entries for the people, places, things. In other words, in the episode pages, the verb tense would stay as it is, but the verb tense in the individual article entries for say "Gaius Baltar" which would be the encyclopedic entry on him, would follow the norms and conventions used in other encyclopedias. That convention being, again using Gauis Balter's entry, the descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, whereas referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard Galcatica, etc. would be present-tense since this is the current state within the timeline of the show at present. This would of course be edited as events unfold within the show. If for example he is removed form office as VP, then the verb tense would change for that piece of information as well as adding in how he stopped being VP, etc.

Likewise passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper would be past-tense, while the current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II would be present-tense. Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia.

This sort of tense usage within things such as the ''Star Trek'' technical manuals, Omnipedia's etc., which match he tense usage of current "real world" encyclopedias. Again, not trying to be a bull in a china shop as the new guy on the block, but it is rather jarring to read encyclopedic entries which do not follow the verb tense conventions used in "real world" ones. [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 22:54, 1 December 2005 (EST)

:I can see why you feel that way, but past tense sounds horrible in a literary criticism context, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect "star trek encyclopedia"-style articles to be free of critical analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:26, 1 December 2005 (EST)

::I am not suggesting that the past tense be used in the literary criticism and or episode entries or sections, but in the encyclopedia type entries. It isn't just the ''Star Trek'' encyclopedias but encyclopedias et all which use the past tense for historical or background content and present tense about current status content. In other words, in all encyclopedias (and I post those style content sections here) would say:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' and after leaving office ''(past tense)'' now lives ''(present tense)'' in the State of New York and has ''(present tense)'' offices in New York City."

::If he were to move to Anchorage Alaska to live and had offices in Juno Alaska this would be updated in a real encyclopedia to read:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' after leaving office he lived ''(past tense)'' in the State of New York and had ''(past tense)'' offices in New York City, on Dec 2nd, he moved ''(past tense)'' to Alaska and now lives ''(present tense)'' in Anchorage and has ''(present tense)'' offices in Juno."

::To use present tense throughout this site, to be honest it reads awkward in many places. Not to mention that it does shatter the kinda cool suspension of disbelief aspect to have an encyclopedia ''Galactica''. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 00:38, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::The idea of a fictional "encyclopedia Galactica" is patently not this site's goal. We document plenty of in-canon stuff, certainly, but we have a great quantity of content given over to actors, writers, behind-the-scenes material, critical analysis, and three or four different incarnations of the series. I don't have any interest in working toward the false document mystique, personally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:35, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::: Well for me personally, that is 9/0ths of the appeal of wanting to work on things at this site. Particularly since BSG in its re-=imagined form is a rich subject to do just that, because of the attention to detail and "realism" as the underlying ethos of the show. Having a robust wiki that reenforces and builds out upon that quality of the show is, to my mind, ideal. Not saying you have to want that to, but it is a real cold shower for me perosnally. Just my 2/100ths of a cubits worth. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::I can appreciate Lestatdelc's arguments on using present-tense, and it took me a bit to digest, but I agree with the standing convention. I've recently discovered the Star Trek Memory Alpha wiki (wow, and to think such a wiki could be done is amazing to me) and reviewed a few pages at random. Many use past tense there, but some, like the page on the excellent episode, [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Enterprise_Incident "The Enterprise Incident"], is successfully written in present-tense. I suspect that Memory Alpha hasn't a verb tense convention there, but note how the active-tense generates a feel of the characters ''doing'' something, rather than being "historical". As Peter explained to me, fictional characters are always in the act of doing something each time you read or watch them--and after a time I realized how correct he was--it keeps the characterization alive to me and to the article. The use of the verb tense also makes it more challenging to write the article as good fiction tends to evolve--in an active voice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 2 December 2005 (EST)

::::::But we in theory are not advancing the story but discussing what has occurred on the show and describing the details of the universe presented in the show (as well as "about the show(s) themselves). If we take the notion of suspension of disbelief at face value, and imagine the events of BSG not being fiction and documenting the events and details there of, particularly in encyclopedic form we would present events which have occurred as past tense, and present status and ongoing things in present tense. What Peter has said up-thread is that there is no interest in such a thing for him personally (and it would seem that most concur) I would consider it unfortunate as this is a great missed opportunity. I think that such "false document" mystique is actually something that has rather large appeal, witness the massive industry of such things in the ''Star Trek'' fandom, from blueprints, tech manuals, omnipedias, and the entire supplemental industry to the RPG medium. As for other projects about fictional stories and their universes, I would point to things like the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda] which is based on the Tolkien universe. I don't wish to be a disrupting presence here, especially being a "nugget" as it were, but I think this is a bad call for a missed opportunity. I can envision a clear convention which would allow for discussing each incarnation of the series and the "about the show" aspect in tandem with the "in universe" repository of content about said universe in the style of such things as the Trek universe things of Omnipedia, Concodrance, Tech Manuls, etc. and the Arda/Tolkien examples. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::: If one cares to review the earlier verb tense discussion, I originally thought past tense was the Way To Go. However, now I stand with the current convention (I think this is also displayed in the past discussion, but I'm too lazy to check). I agree with the present-tense being used to talk about, say, the ''Oddesey'' or ''The Matrix'' or ''Friends'' or whatever, but those aren't, to me, the most compelling points, good as they may be. The compelling point is, once again, that I'm lazy. The amount of man-hours it would take to update the tense in every character bio every week while the show's not on hiatus is, well, a lot. We have a hard enough time with the stuff that's already within scope and I don't see Lest's reasons as nearly as compelling as the three against: Added workload, literary precedent, and more "alive" feel (to borrow Spence's word). And, more specifically, I, too, find the false-documentary idea only "eh" at best. The new series is shot in a way that kind of feels like a documentary, but let's leave that to them and let's us do our own thing. And, in any case, how would one account for multiple series and spoilers in a documentary? Bleh. We might have to start talking in alternate realities or [[railgun|adaptive physics]] if we went down ''that'' road. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:24, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: Well we would be updating the character entries anyway as new events unfold, and placing those events in past tense as they are entered is no more work than putting them there in present tense. The only distinction would be what is currant and ongoing status. For example "Gaius Baltar is the VP in the government" which stays like that until events change that, which would be editing that entry to add whatever event changed that anyway. In fact having both be present tense would be really awkward from a readers perspective. I would also point out that it is not "false documentary" so much as "false document" i.e. if there were an up-tp-the-minute encyclopedia that covered the vast array of things '''within''' that BSG universe that was "passed through" the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscenium proscenium] to us here, that is the style of content about the things within the show which I posit, should be presented in the relevant verb-tense. And the "outside the proscenium" content, about the show, the actors, episode summary, analysis, and comparisons between series, etc. would all be in the present tense which, I agree is much more natural and engaging. I don't honestly see it as more work once the bulk of such tense resolution is done to the exiting content where needed, and as I have posited (probably to the point you guys wanna toss me out the nearest door me already, sheepish grin) would hold much more appeal to me and I am sure others of whom it is demonstratively evident there is an audience for, otherwise fandom and official creation of things like blueprints, tech manuals, etc. for other series stuff, which is presented as if they were "genuine documents" from said universe depicts in those various shows, would not be so prevalent. Again, not trying to be cantankerous or difficult. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::::: I would also really prefer past tense. Like Lestatdelc says, it creates the feel of the article being real. Starwars Wiki always uses past tense, and refers to the articles as being written "in-universe", which to me sums up why past tense is so good. Writing is present tense sounds like someone is writing the events as they watch them on TV, which kind of takes you out of it. Also, I personally find present tense just seems really clumsy. It's like reading a little childs picture book (without so many pictures, and uh, bigger words :) ). Day makes an good point about keeping with the documentary style, and as for alternate series and spoilers, just check how starwars wiki handles non-canon and spoilers. It would be a bit of work to change, but not too much if lots of people work on it. One more point, it might be easier to convince those who are new here to write in past-tense than in present-tense (which seems like an uphill battle). Anyone else agree, or are us pro-past-tense people just in the minority here?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:13, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::As I've stated above, the "in-universe" conceit does not appeal to me at all. Present tense prose is more difficult to write than past tense, but I think the results are crisper and sound more professional. The process forces one to pay closer attention to their writing style.
::::::::As for your comment about convincing "those who are new here to write in past-tense", I find that notion troubling. This matter is such that there can only be one standard. The purpose of the Standards and Conventions process is (naturally) to create and promulgate a consistant style. If you wish to change the policy, discussion here is the place to effect it, not through unilateral action. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::You've misunderstood me, I was merely suggesting a change - one which I don't expect will happen, and I'm fine with that. My comment was that at the moment people are coming in and writing past-tense, and having to be told to write in present-tense as they have not read these standards. I was saying that one advantage of changing the standard to past-tense would be that they would probably not have to be told. I'm not about to tell people to go against the standard - that we have one standard is more important than what it is anyway.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 00:11, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::: I also think that present tense sounds more academic. As has been noted before (more than once), this style was initially adopted chiefly because that is the accepted academic style when writing about works of fiction. This is one of the ways in which we attempt to be encyclopedic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:55, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Ranks and Locations ==

Okay. So I was playing this [[:Template:Quote of the Day/09 29|this quote]] and I ran into an issue. In Civillian Speak, I'd call Apollo "''[[Galactica]]'''s [[CAG]], Captain [[Lee Adama]]", but I have an inkling that in Military Speak he'd be something like "[[CAG]] (''[[Galactica]]''), Cpt. [[Lee Adama]]" or whatever. You'd only use this when needing to differentiate him from, say, the [[CAG]] (''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''), but we might want to. Same goes for [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Laird]]. Does someone with a better grasp of military (specifically US Naval, if possible) conventions with respect to this have a suggestion on what kind of convention we should adopt? I'd love it if it didn't conflict with the current Quote of the Day episode convention (since ''Pesgasus'' is half of the ships this is likely to apply to), but we can always change the QotD thing, if we have to. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:04, 6 December 2005 (EST)

:I've tended to use the military abbreviation style as the Army used that I learned while a civilian employee.
::ADM, CDR, MAJ, COL, CPT, LT, LTJG, ENS
::CPO, SGT, PVT, SPC
::Deck Hand, Recruits have no specific abbreviation I can find.

:All caps, no spaces or punctuation. There should be plenty of Internet resources for this. And RDM has already noted the format he used, taking it mostly from the Original Series and his military experience. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:15, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: Enlightening (and I'm just glad someone replied to this at all), but somewhat tangental to my wonderment. I guess it was really about how we're supposed to specify where people are assigned when they have a specific role. In "Pegasus" Tigh and Fisk are both Colonels, but they're ''also'' both XOs, so for would we call one "COL Tigh (XO, ''Galactica'')" and the other "COL Fisk (XO, ''Pegasus'')"? Or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:49, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: They would be referred to as ''Galactica'' XO and ''Pegasus'' XO repectively. They're referred to by position first, not by name. Unit, Position, rank, name. [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 16:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So, I guess, with relation to the quotes, we don't really need to say where given characters are assigned... I don't know why I'd gotten that need into my head, really. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:59, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== Image Format ==

Mostly, the images I upload have been .jpg files. That's just what I tend to use on the web by default. However, because we scale our images a lot (i.e. all out thumbs), would it be more prudent to use .png formatting which, I hear, scales better? And, if that's so, should we make a note on this page about preferred image formatting (though, as long as it shows up alright, I don't see why we'd discriminate)? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:09, 23 December 2005 (EST)

:Most imprudent. PNG is far less efficient at compressing photographic images than JPEG. All image scaling is handled by the wiki software, and based on the original JPEG, so no significant generational degredation should exist.
:PNG has its own distinct uses, and is much better than JPEG at line art and schematics. I think this is commonly understood by most internet users, and I don't think that we need an explict policy on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 23 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Control Station ==
I was working on identifying and classifying unused images that have been uploaded, rather than deleting them outright (at Peter Farago's suggestion). While I started this with the intention of it being something I could handle myself, it has been suggested that it might merit a project or sub-project. I wanted to see if there was any consensus for a project that:

"would take over the Images section of Standards and Conventions (since that's not really where that shouold live, ultimately), and it would cross-coordinate with Characters. I'd want to call it something like Aft Image Control or Auxilliary Image Control... Or, failing those series-references, the Ministry of Images ([[User talk:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/#Project?|Day]])."

Potentially I would move [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|The Island of Misfit Images]] to a Project namespace with a more Galactica-themed title, but it would be a subpage/project of the Image Control Station (to avoid slamming bandwidth-challenged folks that might stumble across the Control Station). The actual control station would be more of a place that coordinate all the image related project pages (present and future).

So the main options I'm proposing are, a project page for Images in general with a subproject for misfit images, just a project/subproject for the misfit images (and we'll link to it from somewhere), or just leave it in Steelviper's user space. (Though I'm open to other ideas as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I'm, perhaps obviously, in favor of an entire images project. It could also consume Requested Images and have a section for images that we have, but might need bigger/less blurry/just better versions. I think, too, it should probably eat the "List of Characters Wanting Pictures" over at Characters, and have a link to it from there, instead. I mean... while we're doing all this, if we do. However, I think another few opinions are needed before diving off and making the page and doing all this moving and cross-linking, etc. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm in favor of moving Steelviper's Island of Misfit Images to the Battlestar Wiki namespace, under its current title. I'd like requested images to remain a separate page, although they should be cross-linked to each other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::: Why's that, Peter? Just for ease of finding for new users or so that all those images aren't on the requested page (we were thinking, or I was, that the Island would be a sub-page of whatever project it became part of) or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::It's no favor to my position that I can't articulate my point well, but I just don't feel that either image requests or image deletions would be a logical subcategory of the other. Better just to have Image Requests refer users to check the Island before making a request, and the Island refer users to Image Requests before deleting an image. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:47, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Hrm. I see your point, but I wasn't thinking that one would be, well, inside the other, for lack of a better phrase. I was more thinking of a hierarchy like this:

::::: '''Images Project'''
:::::* Requested Images
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** Locations
:::::** Equipment
:::::** etc.
:::::* Island of Misfit Images
:::::** As currently organized
:::::* Images needing improvement
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** etc.
:::::* Images to be deleted

::::: It's not precisely clear there, but they're all on the same level, I'd just put the Misfits on a page of their own to keep load times to a minimum. Maybe that's too ambitious, though? Anyway, now if you disagree, I at least am certain you know precisely what you're disagreeing with. I'm not sure I was entirely clear before. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:10, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::What goes on the hub then, besides links to the sub-pages? I do agree that an "images needing improvement" category or project would be good for when we ultimately want to upgrade from TV captures to DVD screenshots. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Any updates on this? So far the only action proposed (by somebody other than the guys trying to sell the "Control Station") is moving the island to the BW namespace. It's been around long enough that I'd be comfortable doing that if there is consensus that it belongs there. People might be more willing to hack and slash on it if it were out of my user area (even though people are already welcome to tear into it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:46, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:Please, go ahead with this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== Dates ==

Do we have a convention for dates? I am referring here to ''Earth'' dates; i.e., those pertaining to the production, such as brodcasts and DVD releases. I have seen at least these four: "Jan 20 2006", "January 20 2006", "20 January 2006", and "January 20th, 2006". Which is preferred? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:46, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:Note sure. Didn't know if it really mattered. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: Personally, I prefer "4 January 2006", but that's me. I think having the whole month out is goo, whichever order we decide on. Normal American convention is "January 4, 2006". So... that's my two cubits. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:13, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::I'm partial to the "4 January 2006" format, myself. M/D/Y is a crime against civilized mathematics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree too. Plus, the M/D/Y format may be more confusing to non-US readers. (For example the UK does D/M/Y)[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::For what it's worth, as I was going through all the eposide info boxes, I found the majority to be in "January 4 2006" style, so I attempted to unify to that format as I went along. I agree with the mathematical elegance of D/M/Y, however, and I dislike the comma and the ordinal number. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:34, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Yeah. Ordinals suck. I don't care whether we put the date before the month or after, as long as it's clear what each piece of data is. The only argument for using ##/##/#### is to ease the understanding of non-English-speaking people, but--if we want to do that, we need to make translations for the whole Wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:38, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Y-M-D, all numeric, is easily the nicest for sorting, so I'd say it's the one with "mathematical elegance" by virtue of its computer science elegance. That said, "10 March 2006" is the nicest for instant reading clarity and agrees with the output of <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Commas are a waste, and ordinals would be horrific.
:::::: Anyway, someone should actually put up a consensus if this counts as one; I don't mind going through and standardizing them some day relatively soon. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:53, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:So, have we decided what date format is to be used? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:58, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Battle pages ==

I realize that although I created the battle pages, I never clearly set out the format they should take. Basically, they try to imitate real world battle pages at Wikipedia as much as possible. Using this, I created battle boxes for the entire Lord of the Rings battles series, then just re-applied it here. I'm going to be revamping the boxes in the next few days (no info changes, just formatting changes, nudging, etc. little fixes). However, because they should try to follow real world battle, they should try to stick as closely as possible to these. Long story short, there are 3 basic categories that an "engagement" should fall into:

* A) Battle - large scale engagements
* B) Skirmish - small scale, but noteworthy, engagements
* C) On *''rare''* occasion, alternative names can be used. This largely consists of the "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]" which was less a battle a more of a slaughter. This was then re-applied to the "Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards" because it was part of the larger "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]". But this was really an exception, for reasons which I think are obvious. I mean, if ever the Galactica crew destroys the entire [[Cylon homeworld]] with a [Wikipedia:Christopher Blair|Temblor Bomb] in season 5 or so, we'd call it the "Fall of the Cylon Homeworld", but otherwise this term is reserved only for engagements resulting in massive damage. Another notable exception is the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]"; you see the Battle of the Philippine Sea is so commonly known as the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", and RDM said it was directly inspired by this, that I thought it fitting to alter the name to fit that (that, and it took place in an unspecified region of interstellar space, and Basetars don't often have names. I mean, if a Basetar named "''Truth and Reconiciliation''", this battle would be called "Battle of the ''Truth and Reconciliation''" or something. But the engagement in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" didn't have this. However, "[[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]]" ''did'' have a notable ship with a name in it, so it became "Battle of...etc".

Further ground rules to lay out are what actually deserves an article: officially, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]" is about the smallest engagement we're ever really going to make a page for. Generally, something deserves an article if:

*1) A Colonial ship is destroyed (Vipers, Raptors, etc). They can't easily be replaced, and the loss of even one can be considered a blow. (The upcoming engagements in "[[Scar]]" might be a skirmish instead of a battle, depends how many ships are involved at once).
*2) A massive number of Cylon vessels is destroyed, making the engagement a noteworthy event. For example, the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]" resulted in no Colonial losses ''whatsoever'', yet so many Cylons (hundreds of ships) were destroyed that it warrants it's own page.

An example of something that would ''not'' deserve it's own page is like when 2 Raiders were destroyed in "[[Final Cut]]", with no Colonial losses. No personnel or ships were lost, and the losses to the Cylons were insignificant in the extreme (considering that they still have production facilities and the Colonials do not).

As a rule of thumb, any engagement that involves a Battlestar or a Basestar firing it's own guns at the enemy is a "Battle" (Battle of the Coral Sea was a full scale battle, yet no enemy ships directly engaged each other; just fighters). However, if a Battlestar launches Vipers, but doesn't actually get involved in a small scale fight against enemy fightercraft, it's ''probably'' not a battle (case in point, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]".

Nextly, we have the matter of Commanders and Casualties. We don't know who the heck is commanding the Cylon Fleet or if there are "commanders" in the sense we think of aboard the Basestars. Thus they should be left as "unknown" (though if a Basestar is destroyed, you can assume the "commander" died, also if the entire Cylon force is wiped out). Mind you, if we ever see Number Six standing in a Basestar giving orders during a battle, if she actually gives orders she may be listed as a commander. Usually, a Commander is the highest ranking person present; don't bother to list Colonel Tigh if he never actually takes over command from Adama at any point. We should list "Admiral Cain AND Commander Adama" because Adama wasn't really serving "under" her at the time but by joint agreement, etc (complicated).

Casualties are easier now in Season 2; count how many people died in the episode who were *''not''* involved in the battle, then subtract that from next week's survivor count. For example, in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" two people died that weren't in the battle: Admiral Cain and an unnamed ''Pegasus'' Marine. Thus, when we see the survivor count in "[[Epiphanies]]", we should subtract 2 from it, and us that as "casualties" (I got the idea from "Battle of Kobol").

"[[Battle of Kobol]]" was on the whole a messy, drawn out affair as I think you will agree. We agreed that there's a cut off point where Centurion actions in "Home, Part I" no longer count as a battle or skirmish because it was so small scale (again, no Vipers were destroyed, etc).

As for "Numbers" we are keeping a running tally of ships, though "Cylon" numbers are a little tricky. I just go with "associated Raiders and Heavy Raiders" when a Basestar is involved, when no numbers are stated on screen.

As for forces, it's "Cylons" not "Cylon Alliance" (from TOS) because we have no idea what the political structure of the Cylons is. For every battle after the massive loss of 118 Battlestars in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, every other engagement after this is done by "Remnants of the Colonial Fleet".

I hope that sorts out stuff for now. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: That's ''awesome'', Ricimer. Now, before we put it up on the main S&C page, I think it needs some concising, though it will be key to not let it become less clear. I would suck at that job, so... please someone else volunteer. I'd also like to see the battle box become a template (as mentioned on your talk page), for ease of changing it if we need to and also for ease of CSS-ifying it so that it can change with themes, eventually. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::As noted on [[Talk:Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], I continue to prefer "Attack on" for situations where the target is named but the battleground is not. As for [[Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]], there is no reason why "Battle of" wouldn't encapsulate that idea accurately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Because it's doubtful if shots were even fired by the Colonials at Scorpion; it was a one-sided slaughter, but nonetheless deserved it's own page. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::That's a fair point. I continue to believe that "Battle of" is inappropriate when the field of battle has not been specified. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I'm sorry but this is the format that more or less works. "Battle" is a standard name. "Attack" sounds like a Doolittle Raid, as opposed to the MASSIVE engagement we just saw. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::::Your ''ex cathedra'' assertions on style are unbecoming. I am interested to hear the opinions of other users, particularly Joe, who named the page in the first place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::I fail to see what is rude about this: rather than simply editing pages as I saw fit, you ''told'' me to make a full write up of my view on the subject here, and then let consensus agree or disagree: you are chastising me, for doing as you requested? That said, not ''ex cathedrda'', but with ''plenitudo potestatis'' :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:54, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I went to Wikipedia hoping to find a definitive pattern to follow, but came up empty. [[Wikipedia:Battle#Battle naming|Naming Battles]] Apparently the british had a whole committee for this purpose ("British Battles Nomenclature Committee"). While almost all of the battles listed in Wikipedia follow the "Battle of" convention, they are always followed by a geographic reference (which we're not really going to have in this case). If we're going to name it after the resurrection ship, we might consider the outcome as well. Rather than just calling it the "Attack of", we might consider the fact that the result was its destruction. In Star Fleet Battles there was a scenario called "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" that always stuck in my mind (a Klingon ship attacks a greatly disadvantaged ''Hood'', usually resulting in its destruction). I guess that would be similar to "Fall of the Twelve Colonies." ("Destruction of the Resurrection Ship"?) Although that would certainly spoil the ending if someone hadn't seen the episode. Sorry not to be able to take a decisive stand, but hopefully some more people will weigh in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Good info there. Well, If it was them ''surprising the Resurrection Ship alone'', I would go with "Destruction", but instead it was an all-out battle to destroy it, case in point it's the only ever engagement between ''multiple'' Basestars and ''multiple'' Battlestars. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::That's a good point. With all this focus on the Resurrection ship, I lost sight of the fact that it was essentially a non-combatant. It was the strategic objective, but the actual firepower lay in the basestars and the raiders. I guess naming would have been a lot simpler if they gave us a goofy sector name like the TOS would often do (Hatari sector, etc) to use as a geographic landmark. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I still think "Attack on the Resurrection Ship" is descriptive, succinct, and has a good ring. The fact that the actual combat didn't involve it is incidental - the Resurrection ship was the primary target, and it certainly ''was'' attacked. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 21 January 2006 (EST)\
:::"Battle of the Resurrection Ship" is just as descriptive and succinct when you think about it, and I personally believe that it has a bad ring. Funny thing was, remember when they were doing that recon mission near a moon? (orange one that they flew by in Res Ship Part I), I had hoped that would provide a location (like the Red Moon with Starbuck, etc) however, the actual battle did not take place near there at all. Of course, what WOULD we have called it? Old ''Red Dwarf'' joke about that. It's a "bluey-green planetoid"...they're ALL bluish-green planetoids! (no names, etc). At any rate, it wasn't just attacking that ship; it was a full scale battle between the Basestars and Battlestars. That said, Galactica vs. Pegasus should be deleted, because I intend on merging any relevant information into a short paragraph for "Battle of the Resurrection Ship"; I'm just busy and can't do a full write-up yet. Monday.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:32, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::My sentiment is that "Battle of ~" should be used with the location or nucleus of a battle. I agree with previous comments that the Resurrection Ship was effectively a stationary set piece around which the battle was waged. That it was destroyed does not disqualify it from functioning as a virtual location. The time and place of the battle were directly related to the presence of the Res Ship, so I believe it functcions as a location for our purposes. Insofar as that translates to S&C, shall we say "Battle of ~" necessitates a location, but that locations can include noncombatant targets? (Even if they possess mobility.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 22:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::On the matter of survivors, we absolutely should not assume that every off-screen casualty that happens between episodes in which a battle takes place was caused by said battle, although it certainly provides an upper limit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Oh, I just meant "follow the pattern we already established with "[[Battle of Kobol]]", that is, say in the casualty box "XX number at most; survivor count decressed by YY, but ZZ number were scene to not die because of the battle" etc. (well, shorter than that). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:28, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ages ==

As has come up [[Talk:Saul Tigh#Age|elsewhere]], I'd like to get the age thing going here. I think, by and large, ages should not be included. In the case of Saul Tigh (and any others who meet these criteria after), I think we should include it. Here's my plan: The numbers ''must'' be a link to a note at the bottom citing the source of the information. If that means including a bunch of math at the bottom, so be it. If it gets too big and complex, then we can move it to, say, "Saul Tigh/Age" or whatever. This way, the information is as transparent as we can make it, without muddying up the template with justifications right there. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:FYI, footnotes do not appear to work inside the character data template. I'm not sure why. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ship gender ==

Which pronouns shall we use for ships? I believe the normal convention is for friendly (for our purposes, colonial) vessels to be referred to as female, and enemy (Cylon) craft as male. IIRC this is consistent with Galactica-Boomer's terminology for the captured raider. (Thus, enemy craft repurposed to the colonials retain their masculine identity.) I would suggest that gender-neutral pronouns for ships should be avoided when possible, if only as a matter of taste. Thoughts? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:16, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I believe the current convention is the female for all ships ([[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Ships]]). I've not heard of using male for enemy ships. I do agree that gender neutrality ought to be avoided, if only to make it easier to translate into Spanish (I'm not very familiar with gender neutrality in that language, other than generally defaulting to masculine). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I've never heard of enemy ships being referred to in the masculine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I must have hallucinated it, then. Very well, feminine it is. (Boy do I feel silly for missing the item in Standards and Conventions. I did a search on "gender" but somehow glossed over the big ol' heading.) Thanks for the input. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:17, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but I think it makes sense to leave pronouns neutral when referring to ships in a general sense or on a class basis ("If it is armed, the Blackbird likely fires the same ammunition…") and make them feminine when referring to a ship by name (''Laura'' quickly proves her worth…). Kosher? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Sounds right. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:50, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Most navies refer to their vessels in the feminine. I do know that the Russian Navy does refer to its vessels in the masculine.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Ah! That must be where I got tangled up. I bet I read a cold war spy novel a decade ago and misremembered the convention. Thanks, Ricimer. Now... can anyone confirm that Galactica-Boomer called the captured Raider a he? If so, should all Autonomous Raiders be masculine? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 04:22, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== XHTML Compliance ==

So. We all (should) know that and are ''Bad''. However, it's (apparently) less common knowledge that all is bad as well. For the [http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ DOCTYPE] of this website, it should be . All tags must be closed in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional Doctype. I've also learned that <s> is ''equally'' bad for XHTML Documents. Apparently, the tag to be using is <del>. Just thought I'd put this up here and see if anyone had any thoughts before moving it to the S&C page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:08, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:This would be particularly relevant if we were using a strict doctype, which, god-willing, will never happen. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:11, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:: Well, yes, I think it would be a bad idea to expect all Wiki contributers to know how to follow strict and to take the time to do it (we use tables for a lot of our formatting stuff), but While we have the Transitional Doctype, I think we should try to do at least that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:33, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::: If bots are enabled, I could get a bot to sit on the server and go through the pages and change tags to XHTML and then also to Wiki code.

== Policy? ==
This is policy right? Because then we can add the <nowiki>{{Policy}}</nowiki> tag on the page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 18:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"==

I propose that we replace the term "[[Humano-Cylon]]" with "[[humanoid Cylon]]". The term didn't really expand much outside of BattlestarWiki; I've heard Humalon, BioCylon, Cylon Agents, etc. and other frequent combinations out there. That's not why I want to change it though. In light of the fact that there will soon be a Human/Cylon Hybrid on the show, and I've put a lot of thought into this over several days, and I can only come to the conclusion that leaving the terms as they are will lead to dreadful confusion unless changed. I mean, they were called "Humano-Cylons", "Humalons" because they're Cylons that are "like" Humans, but now we're going to have a Hybrid that is a genuine cross between the two on a cellular, nay, molecular level. I know it will take a lot of work (I'm willing to do it), but I think we should phase out "Humano-Cylon" because it was never canonical, and will be all too readily confused with the hybrid. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)
:I agree that Humano-Cylon should go. The term initially struck me as clumsy, though I didn't question it because it was so widespread in the Wiki. I wonder if we could get by with plain old "Cylon" when the context is clearly RDM; Centurions, after all, are usually called out as such. Within the world of the show, the usual term seems to be Cylon. I also feel we should avoid adopting other contrived portmanteaux (Humalon et al.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)
::That is a good point, and a surprisingly elegant solution. I approve. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:54, 24 January 2006 (EST)

On top of this, I think it's time that we created a page for the [[Cylon-Human Hybrid]]; info is gathering and Sharon's daughter is going to be a pivotal character eventually (consquently, I've heard that the later episode of Stargate SG-1 season 9 will focus on Vala Mal Doran (Claudia Black) returning with a "miracle pregnancy", unfortunately her daughter turns out to be the physical manifestation of the bad guys, the Ori, and she will be sort of the bad guys "messiah" figure in their 10th season. It makes you think...). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

And while I'm on the subject, I think that she should make separate character pages for Cylon "copies" that develop individual traits over time. For example, we should keep a main "Sharon Valerii" page, with stubs for the main articles for "Galactica-Sharon" and "Pegasus-Sharon". Also, Gina should probably have her own page separate from the main Number Six article, as she's differentiated into a separate character.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I also agree we should split the Cylon copies. Perhaps (using your example) the "Sharon Valerii" page might well be nothing more than a disambiguation, and contributers would be encouraged to link directly to "Sharon Valerii (Galactica)" or "Sharon Valerii (Caprica)". Migrating all the links would be a substantial project, but one I feel is worth taking, and sooner the better. As for naming convention - it might not work every time, but perhaps the location where that copy is first introduced? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::This is long, so forgive me, but there are important issues that change our nature that I cannot agree to.

::Let's deal with the terminology change first. I had my qualms about "humano-Cylon" when I first saw it, but it is an efficient term to differentiate these beings from robotic Cylons here, especially given that the show has not really furnished a unique term. "Cylon Agent" is the closest that the show has used, with "human models" and "Cylon humans" after that. ''Battlestar Wiki'' has many articles that use descriptive terms as placeholders in lieu of a canonical name: "[[Presidential security service]]", "[[Identification Tags]]", and "[[Colonial wireless alphabet]]" are other examples. "Cylon agent" can be used as a placeholder redirect if one is tired of typing it, but we need more reason than "we don't like the term" to change "Humano-Cylon" now, as it appears on many, ''many'' articles here. And frankly, it's grown large enough that purging it will be very difficult. Our naming conventions are here for a reason, so making exceptions for the Sharon Valeriis diminishes our effectiveness as an encyclopedia, which MUST NOT be ambiguous, strive to keep to the basic definition and not wallow about in subdefinitions as an unnecessary article into itself--which is what you are proposing. "Humano-Cylon" is ''very'' popular here, and what goes on in the "outside world" doesn't really matter in the context of maintaining this wiki, so long as others can use their own terms and we provide appropriate redirects to our article as appropriate. I understand the spirit of what you're suggesting, but we lack a sufficient "why", in my opinion. Although I see a good reasoning between what are "Cylons" in RDM and what are "robot Cylons" that can withstand further debate, I think we should adjust the wiki as the characters do: when the characters begin to see the Cylons with human traits and not a machine to be shut down, our data here should reflect it. Otherwise, differentiating them to any large degree would be like writing bios on the "Borg" drones from "Star Trek." No point, as they are all generally the same.

::Two: Sharon's baby has '''not been born yet'''. Do ''not'' assume it will come to term. Imagine the holy hell that the Cylons will unleash if they learn that it ''doesn't''. Imagine the political hell in the Fleet if it ''does''. Either way works well for the writers, so we can't make the assumption. Ron Moore has promised some radical changes for the Fleet at the end of this season, and much of this could involve that child to be. Once we know for certain that this hybrid is born and is even given a name, then a page is quite appropriate and necessary. But until then, creating an article for this or any other hybrids or proposed character to-be goes against our sourcing policies (it's speculation until shown in an episode) and is premature (no pun intended).

::Three: To differentiate between the Valerii's and other Cylon agents is asking for trouble at present. They are identical in creation and mission; if they begin to vary on that mission, a subarticle is written. The [[Number Six]] article shows at least three variations and it appears to work well. Now, a number of articles are becoming long, true. But, as a wiki, we haven't created a policy yet as to how to break up or concise such data as it relates to these character bios. We ''have'' worked out a process for the [[Cylons (RDM)]] and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article series, which could be adopted for the characters with some thought. Changes that are more POV or assumptive like these, and less in form to the wiki's overall format or mission are detrimental, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::I don't think the show has yet provided a canonical term to distinguish the "human models" from the more mechanical models. I think "Cylon Agent" would be a good placeholder/redirect, but that's based on the writing on a folder and not consistent adoption within the show. One thing that hasn't been established well (at least in my mind) is WHO the Cylons are. Are the humanoid-cylons the new, REAL cylons (with centurions, raiders, etc. serving their interests)? Or are all models part of a true "Cylon collective" (resistance is futile) where everybody is considered equally "Cylon". If the humano-Cylons prove to be the "real" Cylons, then I would see them taking more of a prominent role at Cylons (RDM). Until then, I think that any term we use is just serving as a placeholder.

:::Even if Sharon's offspring (I'm not sure if baby is the right word) comes to term and is born, I'm not sure that Cylon-human hybrids deserve an article of their own. Peanut butter gets an article, and jelly gets an article. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even get an article (being a distinct, important, and common combination of the other two). However, just because somebody once made a peanut butter and tuna sandwich doesn't mean that it necesarily would merit an article. The offspring would DEFINITELY merit its own article, but until proven otherwise would be a unique proof-of-concept. All information about her would represent the totality of what we know about the hybrids, until such time that more hybrids come into being. (That is if she even comes into being. Adama may yet "drown the baby in the pond.") --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::A note on the offspring: perhaps it would be fun to create a short, amusing-but-still-relevant biography page for the fetus ("prebiography"?), noting its (can we say "her" because Sharon said so?) unique physiological properties, Baltar and Six's fascination with her, political ramifications of her delivery or lack thereof. A nod, if you will, to the "life begins at conception" faithful. I realize such a page could easily become political, insulting, or trivial, but I think it's worth a shot. Treating the subject like a regular character bio affords plenty of oppurtunity for ironic humor as well, as with the [[Toaster]] article. Yeah? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:39, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::The Cylon-Human Hybrid article cannot be created until after the episode in which it is born. It is BattlestarWiki's firm policy to categorically deny the "life begins at conception" viewpoint and instead support the life at birth viewpoint. An embryo which is little more than a clump of cells, the potential for life, yes, but not life. Regardless, following the tenets [[Naturalistic science fiction]], BSG supports "realistic" ''science'', as opposed to "opinions". Creating the article ''before'' the child is born would undermine ''BattlestarWiki's'' established stance against "life begins at conception", and creating it before the birth would be like holding up a big sign saying "we support Life-At-Conception". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I hope I'm not stepping into a political debate here, because that is not my aim at all. But can you provide support for your claim that BattlestarWiki has a firm policy on this topic? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 15:00, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::''Battlestar Wiki'' has no policy on the matter of the status of a fetus, Ricimer. This is a ''non-sequitur'' that actually worsened your position, not reinforced it. In short: Don't make stuff up. Everyone here can see and (and in most cases, edit) all policies. That said, jumping down to new thread and clarification... --15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::No, no, sorry; I was being really sarcastic. Sorry, I thought everyone could tell. Well, if not, "that life at conception is a policy thing I just wrote was just a sarcastic joke". I appologize for the inconvenience. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:06, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::As for the Valerii problem... I think that's going to be a tricky issue. "Caprica" Valerii does seem to behave distinctly differently from "Galactica" Valerii, and both of those differently than the other "Caprica"/command Valerii. I'm not sure it has been definitively proven whether they are unique individuals, or whether they are just playing different roles based on what the mission calls for. Personally I like the current grouping by "model", though I might more seriously rethink if their individuality/uniqueness is eventually proven. I think "Downloaded" would be pretty decisive (if it hasn't been canceled as rumored).

:::Feel free to copy my sig to any of these if you need to repond to an individual issue. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

A few points to clarify:

'''One''': I didn't suggest this simply because I "don't like" the term "Humano-Cylon". I was actually okay with the continued use of it, until the Hybrids came along. The ''*ENTIRE*'' reason I have raised this issue of changing the name is officially "'''I think it will get confused with the Cylon-Human Hybrid'''". Just wanted to clarify that.

'''Two''': I did not expect the pages to be changed immediately, and I understand that Caprica-Sharon's daughter hasn't been born yet: The reason I ''put foward'' the issue now, is so that we could have a lenghty amount of time to debate the issue and set up parameters and rules for this change here, in advance, so there will be less confusion later. Never too early to debate. I wanted to get the ball rolling.

'''Three''': Regardling the popularity and practical removal of "Humano-Cylon": How do we know it was ever "very popular"? I only used it because it was the term that this wiki was already using when I got here. Curious, can we have a show of votes here of who actually "likes" the term enough to keep it? (largely irrelevant, sorry, I'm just saying; How can we quantify it as "popular", when in the earliest days ("In the Long-Long Ago"...) BattlestarWiki used that name and redirected all future references to these begins to that page. ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc''.

What I meant by stating that it's "not used much outsite of BattlestarWiki" is that I mean it isn't based on anything outside of this wiki, ***so we can feel free to change it without being fettered by external constraints. I mean that changing it will not contradict other material out there.

As for "practical removal", recently we gutted this entire wiki updating "Commander Adama" to "William Adama" following his promotion to Admiral. If such as pervasive name as Commander Adama can be replaced and revised, surely there will be not so great difficulty in replacing "Humano-Cylon" with "humanoid Cylon", etc. (That's my personal choice, but any other name that ''doesn't'' sound like "Humalon" or something (the Hybrid confusion, etc) would be okay after a vote).

'''Four''': The separation of Cylon copies with distinct personalities into different character pages. I was willing to ignore this through season 1, but after hearing about "Downloaded" I realized that we'd have ''two'' copies of Sharon, each distinct from both the other standard Sharon-copies AND each other, on the show. And the more I thought about it, the more I think they have finally reached the point where they need to be considered separate major characters with their own pages. ***Again, we can do this after "Downloaded" airs, I just wanted to get discussion started now, so we know what to do ahead of time. Yes, I did PLAY AROUND with creating separate pages for both two days ago (after which made the request here in standards and practices), but at the time I wanted to raise interest in the issue and experiment with how this would work.

Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:To Spencerian's points on terminology: (1) The lack of a solid canonical term is a valid argument for keeping the old term ''only until a new term is agreed upon''. Clearly we do not wish to frivolously or rashly change the Wiki; hence this discussion. (2) The difficulty of the task is not a disqualifier, as Ricimer has stepped forward to take it on, and I'm certain others of our cadre will pitch in. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could not a search-and-replace bot easily change such a unique term as "Humano-Cylon"? (3) I don't see how this represents an exception for Sharon Valerii. I believe we're talking about replacing the term globally. Can you elaborate on this point? (4) If you are waiting for the characters to realize cylons are not merely machines to be shut down, I assume you are referring to the mainstream colonial opinion. There are plenty of characters (Helo, Baltar, all of the Cylons, and [[Demand Peace]], who give them a bit more credit. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:57, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Thanks for the clariification. On the work front, of course, the changing of the terms throughout isn't an impossible undertaking, but note that once a term is in use, it's hard to stop. In the case of the Cylons of RDM, an article is already there. To make the changes, we have to go all the way for all pages or not at all to ensure that referencing info, as well as the info itself, remains consistent. Ricimer's point #4, which I've suggested on the Valerii page, using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/parent page where subarticles for supporting characters that have appeared should keep article sizes down while organizing data well. I'm all for this idea the more I think of it. "Sharon Valerii" is like a class of ship (all generally the same), but each ship has a characteristic identity (Boomer, Caprica-Valerii), thus the parent page and subarticles for all major players. Sorry if I confused you on my thoughts on this.

::The Cylons, be they truly biological and not to be treated as machine, are still the central adversary of the Colonials. While the characters can make their judgements on what they see the Cylons to be, we as wikipedians just report what we see, ultimately--we don't make the "news". In other words, if Adama (who runs the Fleet) sees the Cylons as a threat, they still have to be reported here in that light. Helo and others may have differing opinions, which should also be added. We must spin interpretation very cautiously and not to interpret it as fact. With that, I'm in favor of "Cylon agent" (the most commonly used term in the show, IMO) for a H-O replacement, but still, "Cylons (no suffix)" may also have merit. Current aliases are still OK, but the convention would be for that. I also suggest that we form parent/child pages for each of the Cylons (see, I'm doing it already now that I understand the subtle point) to avoid confusion and oversized articles. This also prevents issues with over hyphenations: Picon-Valerii, Tauron-Valerii, Cheese Whiz-Valerii..you get the idea. And when/if the baby is born, she gets her own page as she will be quite unique (I hope). To keep from this thread going crazy again, let's go for support/oppose tags at your replies from here, with your suggestions on how or what to do with terms and page design. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Proposal===
There will be no special term for the human models. All references to Cylons in the Re-imagined series will be taken to refer to the humans, unless prefaced with "Centurion" or other relevant distinguisher. This is in line with the show's own usage, and avoids creating a non-canon term.

The article [[Humano-Cylon]] will be deleted. Its content will be merged into [[Cylon Models]], the individual overview pages for each cylon model, and a new page on potential cylon agents, with the previously discussed "whitelist" and "graylist" sections, as relevant.

Links to Humano-Cylon will be redirected to the [[Cylons (RDM)]] article cover-page (which will be spruced up, but probably remain fairly spare), or to various subsections, as appropriate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Counter-Proposal===
The human-appearing models of Cylon are indeed distinct enough that they deserve a special term. All references to Cylons in the re-imagined series don't necessarily refer to the humanoid models (we have no idea how these things are deployed, and in context, whe Lt. Gaeta shouts "Cylons incoming!" he's not talking about humanoid Cylons floating in space). Plent of times on the show they have made a distinction between the "mechanical variety" and "the human variety", so the "Proposal" would not, in fact, be "in line" with the show's own usage.

The article "[[Humano-Cylon]]" will remain entirely intact, but have its ''name'' changed to something else (my suggestiong would be "humanoid Cylons", but someone else might be able to come up with a better name and some ideas were tossed around above, etc). The contents of "Humano-Cylons" will not be merged. The ''already existing'' overview Character pages for the humanoid Cylon models will remain intact as they are now. There will be no new page for potential humanoid Cylons; it will remain a sub-section of the article dealing with the humanoid Cylons (as it is now). If by "whitelist" and "graylist" it is meant "people we suspect of being humanoid Cylons" and "people who it has been proven could not possibly be humanoid Cylons", such sub-headings will be added into the list of suspected Cylon Agents on "Humanoid Cylons".

Links to "Humano-Cylon" will be redirected to the new term ("Humanoid Cylon", for example, pending consensus on name). Humanoid Cylons models that have developed distinct personalities that have made them unique Characters on the show will be separated into having their own Character pages, while a stubb about these individual copies will be made in the article dealing with that particular "model" (as well as a link). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:38, 25 January 2006 (EST)

===Discussion of Proposals===
I think we may be trying to decide too many things at once. I think it would be much easier to make this decision in a couple of steps:

: A. Move all discussion of creating copy-specific pages on specific models to [[Talk:Sharon Valerii#Keeping Track of the Valeriis]], just so it doesn't get so confusing here. Really, that's the only character we're considering doing this to and once we make a decision on her, we can make that a policy without much discussion here.

: B. Do we want to change the term?

: C. What do we want to change it to?

: D. What does that entail?/Plan of Action/Enact PoA.

Now, I would not be opposed to changing the term. I agree it could be a bit confusing when/if Sharon delivers us a little halfling. One thing that's not been brought up when speaking of work load is the fact that not all references to Humano-cylons are links. So they'll be harder to track down than, say, all occurances of "Thrace, Kara". So, there'll be a lot of hand-searching, if you take my meaning, to be done. That being said, I don't think that's a reason not to change, really. What we ''do'' here is edit stuff.

On the point of C (really we could do my steps B and C together, without ''too'' much confusion), I support the change to simply Cylon. In a vast majority of cases context will make it readily apparent whether we're talking about Simon or a raider. In the few cases where we'll have to be more specific, then I think we could use "humanoid Cylon" or a "human-type Cylon" or "a Cylon of the human variety" (if you're not into the whole "brevity" thing) or any number of other circumlocutions that need not be standardized. As for changing the article name, we could make it "Cylon (human type)". I think it should continue to be an independant article because raiders and basestars have articles of their own... We just don't know what to call it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:What about putting it on the front page of [[Cylons (RDM)]]? We could list capsule descriptions of the known models there, just like The Twelve Colonies lists the individual colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:21, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:For me, part of the elegance of using the simple term "Cylon" is that it doesn't limit itself to the human-looking ones, but that context will take care of that for us nearly every time. Clearly, "cylons approaching" does not mean space-walking humanoids. But neither does "Tigh is a Cylon" imply Tigh may be a centurion, or a Basestar. Let's give folks some credit. Also, I must have been confused - I didn't realize we were only discussing branching the pages for Sharon. I think at the very least, Baltar's-Psychosis-Six and Gina have different enough agenda to merit different pages. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:: I may have mis-understood the issue of splitting, then, but I think it's different from adopting a replacement for "Humano-cylon", so I'd rather talk about it in another place, even if it's just further down on this page. As there's another place already in use, why not consolidate discussion to that place? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:23, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''Dicussion moved from [[Talk:Main Page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

Hello, I'm new and my edits have so far been of the proofreading type (that's what I'm good at), and I've noticed a particular area of inconsistency in commas/periods and quotation marks. Since it has been decided that we shall prefer American spellings, perhaps we should also use American punctuation style, which places commas and periods inside quotation marks. I have seen them this way a few places, but I've mostly seen the British style used, which places commas and periods outside the quotation marks. I don't care either way, but I think consistency is good so there should be a guideline one way or the other. [[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 08:40, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: IMO British style is much, much easier, both to write and to read. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:43, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Then perhaps we should declare "British style" the rule so that those of us who fret over punctuation can change the non-British occurrences to match.[[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 10:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::Welcome to the wiki, Bunchofpants. You've noted a significant inconsistancy we do, and I'm a bit guilty as well. Punctuation ''should'' (based on my experience) be within quotations (such as, "Kara, you're just crazy."). But, when dealing with episode references in parentheses, our convention is to place the punctuation after the episode reference, outside of the quotes. (Tyrol says "Put the gun down" ([[Fragged]]).) This convention, I think, is fine. However, in sentences without episode references, the punctuation should be inside. I'll need to check our policies, where, if we don't make up our own policy, we tend to stick with Wikipedia policy. Another administrator may also have an opinion to this. So that others can chime in, we should move this discussion to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

This is, I think, probably because we're on the internet. Apparently, I think according to the hacker slang dictionary which I don't have time to find a link to, it is very, very common amongst prolific internet users to use the British style, not because we're all Anglophiles, but because we tend to have a large cross section with the computer science community. Basically, if the period is not part of the quote, you don't put it so that the reader can tell ''exactly'' what goes in the quotes. Especially in help menus for *NIX systems, that use it so that you know the command is "hup" or whatever, rather than "hup." which would be wrong if "hup" were the actual command. Anyway... I like this system. The end. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:27, 5 February 2006 (EST) (Post Script: Let's allow a few days for discussion. Maybe move this to S&C? ''I HATE EDIT CONFLICTS'')

== After Questions...now Analysis? ==

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

: Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:: At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)
::I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::: I think we should shoot speculation as often as we find it, except where it is clearly marked. And I don't think we should let it become rampant. We moved all the Cylon Agent speculation stuff off of each character's page and onto a speculation page, for instance. I don't want to get into encouraging speculation on every single episode page. I like the Purge and Clense idea posed above by someone who didn't sign their post. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:29, 18 March 2006 (CST)

:::: The unsigned post was me, and the lack of signature an oversight. Sorry :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Although I agree that Question sections need '''extensive concision''' as we saw on LDYB II, one of the strengths of BattlestarWiki is that we have Questions and ''probable answers based on evidence''; if we remove ''all'' answers as was done on the recent revision to LDYB II, we remove one of the ''greatest'' features of ''BattlestarWiki''. I feel that answers to questions should be kept shorter than 2 lines, but so long as they stay on one line, and we don't run into a debate back and forth of like 5 things, we should keep them. And if there is a debate it goes to Analysis. I am adamant about this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: If a question has a probable answer based on evidence, then it simply isn't a question any more :-) I'm OK with the idea that we use the Question section to gather answers and possibly gain Analysis points that way, but once we have those answers, the questions should be moved or removed (or, if the answers are purely speculative, the answers purged).

: I also disagree that Analysis should be used for debate. There is no section of the encyclopedic pages that should be used for debate. That's what Talk pages are for. Analysis does not mean, "This is where we nitpick the episode and each others' points to death". It should ultimately read like one person analyzing the episode. Someone suggested it should even be reformatted at some point into a narrative rather than bulleted presentation, and I agree.

: It's not that I don't agree that one of the strengths of this sort of site is bringing fans together to talk out and even occasionally to nitpick. It's just that I think that's what Talk pages are for, not encyclopedic pages. --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No. The point is that we aren't bringing up "speculation" but that we are pointing out facts, back and forth. For example, "Was Cain lying to Starbuck about wanting to take back the Colonies?" could be followed by "Cain has been seen to be manipulative" followed by "Cain also honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons", etc. Yes, there are "Questions" and it ''remains'' a questions even if we offer ''insight'' into it. No, we should not move the questions once these points have been raised. Analsis is not officially "debate" but it is what it's name implies; "Analaysis" i.e. counterpoints and so forth, based on Fact; that is, not just listing our opinions, but weighing the facts against each other. Either way, the rules are loose when it comes to Analysis. '''No, it should not be moved into a narrative format; that's more confusing than a point by point bulleted list'''. No, this is not what Talk pages are for. Talk pages are just for discussion about what should go on the front, but let me reiterate; '''Remove this feature of the questions and you would GUT the best feature of BattlestarWiki'''. ------>I want the section on the front of this article of Standards and Questions describing how we handle Questions to be revised.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: I think, Merv, that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what the best feature of this Wiki is. And it's odd, because from what I've seen so far, you're actually a provider of what I think the best feature actually is: solid, detailed, well-researched and defensible information about the series, its stories, and its characters. The example you offer is a good one, but the moment good insight is provided for the question like that, I feel it could be moved to Analysis. Or, in this specific example, edited together to remain an unanswered question, but without the sense that people are "discussing" something, which has no place on encyclopedic pages: "On the one hand, Cain can be manipulative. On the other hand, Cain honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons. So: was Cain lying about wanting to take back the Colonies?" When all is said and done, if the Wiki is dedicated to Neutral Point of View, then encyclopedic pages need not to sound like they're arguing with themselves.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 22:41, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:In case there is any confusion about what I am saying we need it's; "Let's just keep doing what we've BEEN doing, and when a Question section like LDYB II's gets a little messy, ''clean it up as the situation requires''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::It seems like these sections (in both Espisode and Character guides) are getting very large and when someone is trying to save even a minor edit we will get an Overflow error. You might have seen it before. http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#Error_Message It might be better to place both of these sections of new pages. (i.e. LBYB, II, Question/Analysis). --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Before I resume my attack on the "Questions" section, I would appreciate it if other frequent editors and admins could chime in explicitly on whether we still like the guidelines I posted to the Standards and Conventions page, as discussed on LYOB II's talk page, or whether more people feel Merv is right and we shouldn't be quite so strict as I've proposed (and executed on LYOB I and II)... I would prefer not to take silence for assent only to have a bunch of stuff reverted later because it was widely thought I was too quick with my knife :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Disambiguation Location ==

We should note that Disambiguation for pages that have more than one meaning should go on the top line of the page, below any "Global" template areas, such as delete, but above such Templates as "Episode Guide", "Character Data", and "Battle Template" area so the text stand out more. Otherwise it is cramped on between the left coloum and the right table and seems like part of the article, rather than Disambiguation data. It should also be tabed once and always italized. '''Comments?''' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:09, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Your choice of words seems very presumptious. I would have said something like, "I like the look of one tab and italics" or "The current convention seems to be..." or whatever, rather than being so proscriptive. I agree that we probably need a standard on this. One tab and italics is fine with me. Just noting that your attitude seems very... controntational. Does anyone else think a different formatting is better? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, that formatting is what I use and prefer, at any rate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::The convention I've always used is the same convention at Wikipedia. Tab one and italicize. So say we all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:16, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== Cast pages Overview section ==

Most of the cast articles have a section titled "Overview" instead of just using the first paragraph as the overview like normal wiki articles. I want to change them all. Any objections?--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 22:24, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:Plah. I just noticed all the articles are this way, even [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I|episodes]]. Withdrawn. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 00:36, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Template Font Size and Design ==

I don't like the size of the font in most of the templates. That's my option of course. So I wanted to bring it up. [[Template:Ship_Data|This template of the Ship Data]] is a good example of the size of the text that I think is better than the bold, large text. Also we should always wikicode the templates. I put up a number of examples on how they are created. Also for the top of these type of templates we should maybe have the red bar along. Here is a [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&oldid=40890 link] of an old verion and then there the version that is active right now which is [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&direction=next&oldid=40890 this]. The Small text keeps everything balanced with the artcile font.

Template that would be effected would be:

*Episode_Data
*Ship_Data
*Star_Data (Being Renamed)
*Character_Data
*Book_Data

Just a thought... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:24, 22 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-22T20:10:42Z

UncleMikey: /* International characters */

''For discussions previously on [[User talk: Joe.Beaudoin]], please [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive|click here]].''
:: Archive from [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=36068 March 6, 2006]

== Good host ==

I saw about your hosting problems... 1&1 is a good host, I've been using them for a while. Their monthly transfer rates start at 250GB per month for
3 dollars. (although that plan is lacking in a few good features... ) Anyhow, I'm not meaning to spam or anything... I just really like my server. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]]
: Originally we had 1&1 -- however, as they limited the size of their MySQL databases to 100 MB, we were forced to move. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Memorabillia ==

Replaced Memorabilia category with Merchandise, using the method you explained. Category:Memorabilia can be deleted. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 05:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Error Message ==
''Copied from [[User talk:Steelviper]] by [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)'' 
I got this error message when saving the miniseries page yesterday, what does it mean?

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 37704 bytes) in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/languages/LanguageUtf8.php on line 92 --Grafix

: Is it still occuring or is it a one time occurance? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:49, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: This only happened once when I was saving the miniseries page. It could be because this page is too long. I think it could do with splitting up into 2 pages: one for the story and the other for comments. It is also missing a summary. I would be happy to do the split but I would need a summary from somewhere. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::I was able to reproduce this error today. I ran into it on the Recent Changes trying to load all 500 at once. (I wanted to go back and block all the spammer accounts indefinitely). That would point towards a large page issue (as the 250 worked fine). Also, on the Mini-series article... Spencerian had discussed chopping it up earlier, but has never gotten a chance to yet. You might start a discussion on the talk page of that article to discuss how to approach such an undertaking. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:58, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::: [http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Web_Languages/PHP/Q_21066345.html&e=9797A link to solve all your problems...] :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:50, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::I cannot view the solutions page as I am not a member of experts-exchange.com. Unless you can copy and paste the pertinent info then the link, sadly, is not all that useful. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: if you have access to your php.ini file incrase the value in this line

memory_limit = 8M ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume (8MB) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Thanks Shane. Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== Spam Alert ==
I've noted a recent surge in spamming [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard#Spam Alert|here]]. As cool as it was to get my first blocks notched on my admin belt, it is starting to look like an ip range block might be needed (if in fact they are coming from a particular band of addresses). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:29, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Could be please ban Scofco. Everytime I reverse his spam he puts it back. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:14, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Sorry. I was sleeping on the job. He's gone for a week (for now) and he's going on "the list". Thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Japanese ==

I wanted to ask you about something I noticed. The people that created the episode guides in other languages had not created their own Episode List in a seperate language. I saw that you wanted to eventually create seperate wikis in different languages so I was under the impression we should create the articles as seperate as possible. Should I be creating a list for the episode guides or should I keep them as connected to the main wiki as possible? --Zareck Rocks 18:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: When translating the articles, we should try to avoid linking to articles on the "English" Battlestar Wiki. This helps makes the process of moving articles to the separate wiki easier, which is something we are all for. :-) Any other questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:21, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I'm sure there will be more in the future, but none right now. Thanks! --Zareck Rocks 18:30, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::No, thank ''you''. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Request for Administratorship==

Joe, I need your help setting up [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian]]; I laid the groundwork but I need proper formating and a vote or two (in any category) to start it off; we use these so rarely I'm not sure how to properly set this up. Then I'm going to fill in all of the questionaires. Thanks,--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:18, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Portal's ==

Hey Joe!

I done some research into the "Portal" problem. It seems there is a file, that has this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:$wgExtraNamespaces where you need to add Portal. It's the same place you did "Battlestar_Wiki". Then you need to run a file under maintenance/namespaceDupes.php to make sure there are no dupes of any type. Since there is possailbly only a few, but do not have any contact it would be ok to run. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:The IRC Channel for the Wikimeta software wasn't that helpful so that's is much as I can give ya. They said to read the manual, but I am lost in looking for it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 15:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: I created a namespace for the portal yesterday. So technically the portal feature is up -- I just am not certain about changing the tab name without changing the name of the article tabs as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:42, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:: I been working with [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] trying to figure out the latest problem with portal sub-templates to auto-form and carry over the the design. From what I been talking with the MediaWiki group, the only way for the Portal's to work right is get them to say Portal" where article is. Now we could upgrade to 1.5.7 (fixes some secuirty areas) and then go from there. Now this page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces gives me some new info which I never found before. The people in the IRC channel are a real pain. This may or may not fix the sub-portal template problem that we are having. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 12:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)
::: The problem is they are not becoming "Sub-Pages". When you create something like <nowiki>{{/box-header}}</nowiki> which is why the portal headers arn't working, is that it never became a sub-page. It became it's own page that is not connected to Portal:Characters but is rather Portal:Characters/box-header. Some new revelent information. If you get a chance, I can show you the difference so you can ask the right questions now on the Wiki mailing list. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: We think we may have nailed down the problem. '''''For Wikipedia, the User, Talk, and Wikipedia namespaces have subpages turned on; the main (article) namespace does not have this feature turned on'''''. From Matt: looks like Joe may just have to turn on subpages for the Portal namespace. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::: We are getting closer. I had someone from outside of this wiki take a look. He said that the wiki is blocking certain types of HTML code. I have no idea where the "filters" would be, but if you have any filters for HTML, if you remove them we might be golden. Also, we get this alot: <nowiki>[{{fullurl:{{{editpage|/}}}|action=edit}} edit]</nowiki> during our travels. Somehow fullurl is built into the wiki code on the php side and is not on the template side. So if that can be enabled also that would be perfect. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:07, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::::::Actually, just FYI, a lot of the issues we're coming up with are because Wikipedia is using the 1.6 betas. We're using the 1.5 stable versions, and there are differences. Other than that, I'm working out the other problems. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:32, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Signature Link ==

Hey Joe, I was noticing how my signature doesn't link to my user page. I spoke to another wikipedian about this and they didn't know why my sig didn't work either. I normally use the signature button but that doesn't link to my page. Do you have any ideas how I can get around this? --Zareck Rocks 17:21, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Check your preferences page to see whether or not the "raw signature" checkbox is checked off. If so, uncheck it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 06:44, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== Bots ==

Do we have bot ability? Because there are some Wikipedia bots that we could use over here. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 19:59, 16 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to assing bot permissions to users, but I should be able to get bots going. Which ones were you looking into implementing here? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:: Just wondering if they were possaible. I'll get a list complied. (New Project! heh) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:::.....The entire "moral" behind ''Battlestar Galactica'' is that we '''should not hand over power to BOTS!''' :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:22, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Hah. yeah. Cylons.. Machines. Yeah. heh. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:34, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::As long as the bots weren't programmed by Gaius Baltar, I don't see any problem. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Template:Characters]] ==

I'd like you to take a look at how I've refactored it. I hope you agree that it can peacefully coexist with the portal now that it's taken a minimalist turn. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:18, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== RFA ==

The election has ended. What is the result? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: I need to review the issues surrounding the RfA before I make any final decisions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:05, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::What? When will you make your decision? Please advise. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::You'll know when I do. Worry not. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::Has to be before Friday. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Why? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: If it's not, the Cylons will gain the backdoor codes to the new nav computer stuff and wipe out the entire navy easily, then nuke us into near-oblivion. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::::::A) An hold with no time limit could be dragged out indefinately, and would set a bad precedent, B) (I'm far more concerned about this:) I'm going to I-CON, Richarch Hatch will be there and there will be BSG discussion seminars, and it would be going with my pants down if adminship were decided days after the event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::That makes no sense. How will being an admin or not have any material impact on your comments to Mr. Hatch? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::::It doesn't, and in fact I plan on remaining silent. There's ''other'' BSG stuff going on, but I digress. Actually, the bigger problem now that I think about it is "this sets bad precedent". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:56, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::::It would be a worse precedent for Joe to act rashly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:02, 19 March 2006 (CST)
: Your second RfA didn't succeed this time. (4 for, 2 opposed; 67% were for your adminship -- however, according to [[BW:RFA]] the consensus should be 75%-80% or higher for a successful promotion.) I would recommend waiting a few months or so before proceeding again. Now, as for the issue I debated... I think that recuriting non-contributors to vote wasn't a great idea. Mainly for the fact that the voters didn't, in my mind, understand ''what'' adminship is. Apparently, there was the overall consensus amongst these voters that administrators were top-notch contributors to the Wiki and that people are entitled to adminship. This is not adminship. Adminship isn't for everyone -- and everyone doesn't need admin tools. If they did, then these administrator folks wouldn't need to exist. At all. We would just call them users with dead man switches. :-)
: Now, if I may kindly suggest a few things, which will only help you on your course to your (eventual) succession to administrator:
:# I would recommend keeping an archive of ''all'' your discussions on your talk page. You may link to the histories or create subpages on your user page to archive discussions.
:# Realize that, as an admin, your actions will be consistently scrutinized. Even more so than now.
:# The differences between admins and non-admins: the ability to delete pages, ban people, and protect pages. That's ''really'' it. If there are people who believe I am stating this fact lightly, then I recommend talking to another admin -- even [[User:Day|(Super) Mop Boy]] can tell you that there really isn't anything different. (Other than the two additional tabs on the top. And that "ban" button.)
:Obviously, if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. Now I'll be seeing the second new episode of ''The Sopranos''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:28, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:A)I would like to argue against the standard of 80% maximum, it is restrictively high. Non-editors is a non-issue; I agree with you there. No, I think I'll commence my next RfA as soon as you close down my current one. Now I'm going to be a little busy updating the site back up to standards, I might not be able to chat for a while on the subject.
:B)If I were made Administrator, I would be afraid of losing such a title, and thus would have quite obvious reasons for restraining myself.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:37, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:: Merv... an RFA-spam will get old very quickly, and does not show the perspective and calmness required, in my mind, of an admin. Also, one should not say, "If made admin X." One should just show X regardless of adminship. Whether it's restraint, or patience or maturity or... not editing Roslin to Roslyn (I picked a dumb example on purpose). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:43, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::I disagree that 75-80% is a restrictvely high standard. Every adminstrator to date has been elected with unanimous approval. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::We are in agreement. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::: I do not think you are. Peter is saying that the 75-80% margin is good. Unless I misread you, Merv, you're saying it's too high. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Er, I meant I was agreeing with ''you''. Sorry, my ''Sandman''-esque syntax does tend to seep in. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: Ah. Hazard of using Wiki Talk pages for communication. Not exactly built with all the handy features of phpBB or whatever. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Merv, a few points:
:# As pointed out by the others, 75%-80% is not a restrictively high standard. A high standard that is severely restrictive is 95%. This percentage is perfect. In fact, I wasn't the one who came up with it -- it comes straight from Wikipedia. And it works, so I'm not going to fix something that is not broken.
:# May I recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that you not proceed to self-nominate yourself again immediately after this RfA is officially closed. (Which I just recently did and the RfA is now archived.) Could you technically do it? Yes. However, I would be more concerned with how such an action might be perceived by those who would vote.
:# Also, there isn't a rush to recruit new administrators. Back when I first started the RfA importing process, I did it out of necessity, as I could not do everything at that time. As far as I'm concerned, we have all the admins we need right now -- where we need the admins is for the non-English BSG Wiki's, so they can determine the tempo and do the mop boy (or girl) thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:22, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Talk to RDM/Universal? ==

Have you ever considered contacting Ron Moore somehow and offering the wiki as a resource for him and his writers? I think it would be a great idea—have the obsessive fans already take care of the continuity checking and documenting everything that happens in every episode, so I imagine it would be a great resource for the writers to quickly look stuff up and keep track of continuity issues. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:23, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:From my expereince, in Star Trek Community, huge companies don't like to have their staff use nothing but there sources, because it's their source of advertizing. But then again, this is NBC and not Paramount. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:57, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, why can't we become official then? It would solve Joe's hosting problems, and Ron Moore is already into blogging and podcasting, so a wiki can't be that far off :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:01, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::If we were offical, that would be nice. We would see a large influx of users if people knew [[Ronald D. Moore|Moore]] contribuated to this site and solved a few things that he should spoil us with, but then again it would leave nothing for the offical site. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::Officialdom would be a terrible, awful, horrible, no-good, very, very bad idea. Officialdom basically means NBC Universal would control the site and its content, including any critical content. There's no reason to believe we would retain any editorial independence. This site's unofficial status is just fine. Really.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:53, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::::So we become the official site :) [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:05, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:::::I just want to note that even more so than Mr. Swallow's contributions, RDM contributing to the wiki would present an enormous fact checking, verification and citation problem. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: He needn't contribute. I'm sure he has better things to do with his free time. I mean--BSG is his ''job''. I know very few people who have their job as a hobby as well. However, if he wanted to, we could just cite his username as a source. *wink* I actually don't know how I feel about "selling out" to Universal/RDM/SciFi. Not that I have an inherant distaste for it, but I'd be quite wary of anything that might imply any kind of over-sight by non-contributers/people who don't understand how all this Wiki business works. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:03, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: I sincerely doubt that we would become "official". While it would be nice, being "official" is the furthest thing from my mind. Also, being unofficial does have its advantages -- meaning that we can be a critical as we need to be and we are not tied down by bureaucratic B.S. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:13, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::OK, but official status aside, I do think we should let Ron Moore know that we exist. All I'm really asking is that we be an unofficial resource for the writers (if we aren't already!). [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:06, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::What makes anyone here think that RDM doesn't know of our existence? Just curious. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:08, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I get the sense from his podcasts that they don't have any convenient resource to keep track of continuity. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::: They may not feel they need any. RDM has said as much as that he's trying to "make up" for some of the "mistakes" of Trek, but he may not consider Trek's failure to be slavishly continuous a "mistake". If he really did, then he would have/could have gone the route JMS went with ''Babylon 5'', with all the major and many of the minor arcs plotted out before the first frame was shot. He didn't do that. I think he's gone so far as to say he doesn't even know for certain yet if ''Galactica'' will ever find Earth, let alone what state Earth might be in if it did.

:::: In the end, strict continuity is of interest mainly to a relatively small number of die-hard fans. It's not of interest to the general viewing public, who mostly just want to be entertained. It's not necessarily of interest to the writers, to whom strict continuity is often a straitjacket.

:::: I'm not saying that RDM wouldn't appreciate what we do here. I'm just saying that if he really thought such a resource was necessary for the writing team, he knows more than enough fannish geeks who could have created it for him by now :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:44, 21 March 2006 (CST)

A) It sounds fanboyish to call in, displaying our wonderful site to their corporation

B) I already mention ''BattlestarWiki'' numerous times in the official RDM Blog thread on the official site

C) A week ago, I personally brought ''BattlestarWiki'' to the attention of Terry Dresbach, Ron Moore's wife, in the official [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1689336&Searchpage=1&Main=1681899&Words=battlestarwiki&topic=&Search=true#Post1689336 Talk to Mrs.Ron thread] on the messageboards. She seemed quite enthused. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:42, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== International characters ==

Hey, Joe, how did you add the international characters 'insert' block at the bottom of the Edit pages? I have another Wiki project I'm working on, and having easy access to those special characters would be extremely nifty...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:31, 21 March 2006 (CST)
: Well, here's what I did:
:# Download CharInsert.php from the Mediawiki CVS
:# Copy that into your "includes" diretory of your MediaWiki install
:# Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php file, near the top:
:#*<tt>require_once( "includes/CharInsert.php" );</tt>
:# Once that's done, save and upload the revised LocalSettings.php file.
:# After that, go to [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]. Copy and paste the code.
:# On your wiki, create a page with the same name. Paste the content and save.
:# After that, edit [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] on your wiki and insert:
:#* <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt>
:And you should be set. If you need anything more, feel free to contact me. (Also, what's your Wiki?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:54, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::Thank you!
::One modification I figurfed out is that <tt><nowiki>{{sitetools}}</nowiki></tt> won't actually work. It needs to be <tt><nowiki>{{MediaWiki:Edittools}}</nowiki></tt>, and that's what it is for you as well (I checked).
::I'm starting to put together a wiki for the fantasy series ''The Prince of Nothing'' by R. Scott Bakker. No idea if it'll take off, or not, but there seems to be at least a little interest on the Three Seas forum. Special characters abound in the names of people and places, so having a handy way to get those specials inserted for those who don't know how to do it with entities or from their keyboard will be a big win.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-22T01:31:18Z

UncleMikey: International characters

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-03-22T01:20:18Z

UncleMikey: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-21T23:53:26Z

UncleMikey: /* Talk to RDM/Universal? */

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2006-03-21T23:44:07Z

UncleMikey: /* Talk to RDM/Universal? */

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-03-21T04:41:52Z

UncleMikey: /* After Questions...now Analysis? */

Because of their length, individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.
As further discussions are concluded, please move them to the archive as well, in order to keep this page topical and readable. If the first archive threatens to exceed 32 kilobytes, please create a new one. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]] for details.

'''Previous discussions:'''

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Verb Tense|Verb Tense]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards|Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Signing Your Work|Signing Your Work]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Spelling|Spelling]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Single-name Address|Single-name Address]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Episode Links and Formatting|Episode Links and Formatting]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters|Proposed Guidelines / Speculative Matters]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Quorum of Twelve|Quorum of Twelve]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Namespaces|Namespaces]]

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02|Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02#Disambiguation|Disambiguation]]


----

== Image Sizes ==

I tend to think that images that are whole-screen captures (and thus letterbox dimensions) should be about 300px wide. This is, however, based entirely on how that looks on my browser window, which is pretty large, but not maximized on a 1280x1026 resolution. So that might look horrid on some other screen. Anyway, with that in mind, I resize all my full-screen captures to be 600px wide since that's a nice two times what I think they should be viewed at. Should I be even thinking this way, or should I just be telling the articles to be thumbs and set my preferences for larger thumbs? In the case of cropped screen-caps, though, I think 300px is too wide, or rather, often too tall. How do others think on this? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:21, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:Yes, use your preference settings for this. FWIW, I'm a fan of judicious cropping. It helps make smaller thumbs more legible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:28, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:: If you're trying to illustrate something specific, sure, cropping is needed in most cases. However, for episode pages and, I think, when trying to show a scene, the whole screen is good for its sense of context. I could be wrong. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:09, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Image Credit ==

Okay... Most images are gonna be screen caps we get from the shows. In which case the credit should go directly to the SciFi Channel, SkyOne Network or Universal Studios. The question is, which one? Or should it be all three? Or does Universal own the two channels and so saying "Cedit: SciFi/SkyOne" is enough? Or... What do you guys think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 21 September 2005 (EDT)
: Universal Studios. They own the copyright. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:26, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
:: Following wikipedia's example, we don't need to credit image copyrights in-text, do we? It should be enough to note copyright status on the image's description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:27, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic ==

It's not very -o-Matic, is it? ;o) Anyway, I think we need a standard for how they're formatted. I prefer the following:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."

:--''Rank and Name in Italics'' ("Episode Name")

It would also be nice to figure out how to go and look at quotes entered for days other than the current day. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:00, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

::As far as looking at previous quotes, that's a Joe question, though it would be welcome. Joe mentioned that the template info has to be added manually, but a creative wikipedia might work something out from a large database. At first I added at most 2 lines as a quote, but now I stick to one quote. I think the style you noted worked well (it did for my two contributions this week), so let's see if we all say so. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:50, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, if you want to keep track of all the quotes, why not just add them to [[:Category:Quotes]]? Theoretically, every quote should then be linked from that category page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:44, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: However, it's a bit late for quotes already put up, no? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:49, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Wait. Is [[Quotes|this page]] automated somehow? If so, then a Quotes category is kind of moot. I remember looking at it a while ago, though, and it having no date information and just a single quote in it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:04, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

On second thought, I prefer this:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."
:--Rank and Name in Normal (''Episode Name'')

For full exchanges I think something like this would work:

:'''Rank and Name 1:''' Humorous battle banter aimed at Speaker 2.
:'''Rank and Name 2:''' Scathing insult.
:'''Name 1:''' Pithy retort.
:--''Episode Name''

What do you guys think of this? If no one replies in a few days, I'll start soliciting opinions on people's talk pages and via AIM. After a few more days, I'll simply make an executive decision and put this policy up. I think it would be best to link it at the head of the [[Quotes]] page, too. When the time comes. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:05, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

::Day, I've been adapting that format (per your original thoughts) and I find it works well. My only problem is insuring a proper break between the quote(s) and the name and episode for single-quotation blocks. I think this thing has languished long enough to put up a quick vote or 5-day consensus/no-objection period, where we can make this the practice (and retrofit all recorded quotes to match if necessary). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 1 November 2005 (EST)

::: COnsider this that period. Also, do you mean you like the break, but you're concerned about adding it for some reason that I do not understand, or do you mean that your dislike tags? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:46, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:::: Okay. I'm about to put my above policy up. I think I'll have to play with it for a bit to get the display format the way I want it for ease of copying and for users who know nothing of HTML. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:02, 11 November 2005 (EST)

::::: I would suggest putting this policy (when it is finalized) and a note about not repeating quotes right on the [[Quotes]] page where the "This is a list of quotes..." statement is. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 19:59, 17 November 2005 (EST)

I noticed that people have started putting in quotes from the original series. I think this is great but in terms of standardization I would follow the same idea as used on the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha wiki]:
* If it is an original series episode, quote as [[TOS]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a 1980 series episode, quote as [[1980]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a re-imagined series episode, quote as [[RDM]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
[[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 13:46, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Not a bad idea, Nwobkwr, but it might get cumbersome. Might I suggest we use only the "TOS" flag for TOS and 1980 episodes, and leave the RDM episodes as-is? This gives a slant to the current series, but then, we will have many more quotes from RDM than from the old series since transcripts of the TOS/80 shows are far less available than the current. It also saves on visual complexity. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:30, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::I think we should put the dab in the episode credit, and only when there are episodes in each series with the same title. (basically, "The Hand of God".) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:53, 30 November 2005 (EST)

Another thing to consider. In light of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Quote_of_the_Day/09_30&curid=3654&diff=19411&oldid=19408 this] quote, should we allow non-BSG quotes on a longer-than-one-shot basis? I think it would be okay, but others (obviously) don't. I'd like a few more opinions and some actual discussion, rather than just editing. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:00, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Links ==

So, in my opinion, the first occurance of nearly any proper noun should be a link. Even the thing an article is about. This means that the first occurance of an article's topic will be in bold, which I think is nice. For longer articles, I think linking becomes kind of discretionary. If someone hasn't been mentioned (or linked, maybe) in a while, then they could/should be linked. Also, episode credits at the end of an event description should ''always'' be linked. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:19, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:Using links-to-self to bold title text is discouraged by the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles|Manual of Style]]. In general I think we should defer to Wikipedia for guidance except where we feel a justified need to explicitly contradict them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:02, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ah. I think that's probably wise. Should we, then, manually '''bold''' them (or, in the case of ship names, '''''bold-italicize''''' them), or leave it out all together? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:40, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Manually bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:41, 2 October 2005 (EDT)

== HTML ==

I, ah, didn't think this was exactly necessary, but, uh... I think, now, it might be. Do we need to make a note about preffering <nowiki>''</nowiki> to ? I see various posts that have several changes, but leave the HTML intact. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:51, 21 October 2005 (EDT)
: Agreed. Wiki sytnax should always supersede HTML sytnax. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:29, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
: Adendum: By the way, I created two templates: {{tl|s}} and {{tl|u}} for {{s|striking out}} and {{u|underlining text}}, respectfully. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:36, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::HTML isn't exactly tasteful, but isn't it preferable to templates? HTML and wikisyntax both retain their formatting if moved to another wiki, but anything formatted with templates won't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:17, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::: Good point, Peter... Maybe "hacking" MediaWiki might be an option, so as to create wikisyntax for underlining? Yes, this would undoubtedly create similar problems, but if a patch was submitted to the MediaWiki developers then they may introduce it (or something like it) into future versions of the software. Just a thought... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:58, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: What would you have the Wiki Markup be? Underscores and dashes, maybe? Might be dangerous, but perhaps it would require two of each in a row? Or three? I was thinking that _underline_ would render underline and that -strike- would render <s>strike</s>. However, I don't want underscores to mess up URLs or for strike-outs to mess up use of the em-dash, which is often substituted by the double-en dash (--). I'd just as soon use the HTML tags (except that it would get in the way of validating the HTML of the Wiki in XHTML 1.0 Strict, if that's a concern). Maybe we could use !!underline!! and !!!strike!!! or something. Ohoh! What about ``underline`` and ```strike```. Of course... you could go nuts and <nowiki>'''''`````italic bold underline strike`````'''''</nowiki> for '''''<s>italic bold underline strike</s>'''''. Sounds like a fighting more from some anime. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:52, 23 October 2005 (EDT)

::::: The biggest one I saw a problem was with the Overview's in each of the episode's. I was seeing all the time. So.. that's my two cents. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 17:59, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Verb Tense 2 ==

While it may be a "convention" within fiction articles about an episode, the verb tense issue is not using present-tense within an encyclopedia unless something is still ongoing. As I posted in the main page talk page and on a user whom made me aware of the verb tense issue, I posit that this convention be changed for the actual entries for the people, places, things. In other words, in the episode pages, the verb tense would stay as it is, but the verb tense in the individual article entries for say "Gaius Baltar" which would be the encyclopedic entry on him, would follow the norms and conventions used in other encyclopedias. That convention being, again using Gauis Balter's entry, the descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, whereas referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard Galcatica, etc. would be present-tense since this is the current state within the timeline of the show at present. This would of course be edited as events unfold within the show. If for example he is removed form office as VP, then the verb tense would change for that piece of information as well as adding in how he stopped being VP, etc.

Likewise passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper would be past-tense, while the current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II would be present-tense. Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia.

This sort of tense usage within things such as the ''Star Trek'' technical manuals, Omnipedia's etc., which match he tense usage of current "real world" encyclopedias. Again, not trying to be a bull in a china shop as the new guy on the block, but it is rather jarring to read encyclopedic entries which do not follow the verb tense conventions used in "real world" ones. [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 22:54, 1 December 2005 (EST)

:I can see why you feel that way, but past tense sounds horrible in a literary criticism context, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect "star trek encyclopedia"-style articles to be free of critical analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:26, 1 December 2005 (EST)

::I am not suggesting that the past tense be used in the literary criticism and or episode entries or sections, but in the encyclopedia type entries. It isn't just the ''Star Trek'' encyclopedias but encyclopedias et all which use the past tense for historical or background content and present tense about current status content. In other words, in all encyclopedias (and I post those style content sections here) would say:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' and after leaving office ''(past tense)'' now lives ''(present tense)'' in the State of New York and has ''(present tense)'' offices in New York City."

::If he were to move to Anchorage Alaska to live and had offices in Juno Alaska this would be updated in a real encyclopedia to read:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' after leaving office he lived ''(past tense)'' in the State of New York and had ''(past tense)'' offices in New York City, on Dec 2nd, he moved ''(past tense)'' to Alaska and now lives ''(present tense)'' in Anchorage and has ''(present tense)'' offices in Juno."

::To use present tense throughout this site, to be honest it reads awkward in many places. Not to mention that it does shatter the kinda cool suspension of disbelief aspect to have an encyclopedia ''Galactica''. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 00:38, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::The idea of a fictional "encyclopedia Galactica" is patently not this site's goal. We document plenty of in-canon stuff, certainly, but we have a great quantity of content given over to actors, writers, behind-the-scenes material, critical analysis, and three or four different incarnations of the series. I don't have any interest in working toward the false document mystique, personally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:35, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::: Well for me personally, that is 9/0ths of the appeal of wanting to work on things at this site. Particularly since BSG in its re-=imagined form is a rich subject to do just that, because of the attention to detail and "realism" as the underlying ethos of the show. Having a robust wiki that reenforces and builds out upon that quality of the show is, to my mind, ideal. Not saying you have to want that to, but it is a real cold shower for me perosnally. Just my 2/100ths of a cubits worth. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::I can appreciate Lestatdelc's arguments on using present-tense, and it took me a bit to digest, but I agree with the standing convention. I've recently discovered the Star Trek Memory Alpha wiki (wow, and to think such a wiki could be done is amazing to me) and reviewed a few pages at random. Many use past tense there, but some, like the page on the excellent episode, [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Enterprise_Incident "The Enterprise Incident"], is successfully written in present-tense. I suspect that Memory Alpha hasn't a verb tense convention there, but note how the active-tense generates a feel of the characters ''doing'' something, rather than being "historical". As Peter explained to me, fictional characters are always in the act of doing something each time you read or watch them--and after a time I realized how correct he was--it keeps the characterization alive to me and to the article. The use of the verb tense also makes it more challenging to write the article as good fiction tends to evolve--in an active voice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 2 December 2005 (EST)

::::::But we in theory are not advancing the story but discussing what has occurred on the show and describing the details of the universe presented in the show (as well as "about the show(s) themselves). If we take the notion of suspension of disbelief at face value, and imagine the events of BSG not being fiction and documenting the events and details there of, particularly in encyclopedic form we would present events which have occurred as past tense, and present status and ongoing things in present tense. What Peter has said up-thread is that there is no interest in such a thing for him personally (and it would seem that most concur) I would consider it unfortunate as this is a great missed opportunity. I think that such "false document" mystique is actually something that has rather large appeal, witness the massive industry of such things in the ''Star Trek'' fandom, from blueprints, tech manuals, omnipedias, and the entire supplemental industry to the RPG medium. As for other projects about fictional stories and their universes, I would point to things like the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda] which is based on the Tolkien universe. I don't wish to be a disrupting presence here, especially being a "nugget" as it were, but I think this is a bad call for a missed opportunity. I can envision a clear convention which would allow for discussing each incarnation of the series and the "about the show" aspect in tandem with the "in universe" repository of content about said universe in the style of such things as the Trek universe things of Omnipedia, Concodrance, Tech Manuls, etc. and the Arda/Tolkien examples. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::: If one cares to review the earlier verb tense discussion, I originally thought past tense was the Way To Go. However, now I stand with the current convention (I think this is also displayed in the past discussion, but I'm too lazy to check). I agree with the present-tense being used to talk about, say, the ''Oddesey'' or ''The Matrix'' or ''Friends'' or whatever, but those aren't, to me, the most compelling points, good as they may be. The compelling point is, once again, that I'm lazy. The amount of man-hours it would take to update the tense in every character bio every week while the show's not on hiatus is, well, a lot. We have a hard enough time with the stuff that's already within scope and I don't see Lest's reasons as nearly as compelling as the three against: Added workload, literary precedent, and more "alive" feel (to borrow Spence's word). And, more specifically, I, too, find the false-documentary idea only "eh" at best. The new series is shot in a way that kind of feels like a documentary, but let's leave that to them and let's us do our own thing. And, in any case, how would one account for multiple series and spoilers in a documentary? Bleh. We might have to start talking in alternate realities or [[railgun|adaptive physics]] if we went down ''that'' road. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:24, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: Well we would be updating the character entries anyway as new events unfold, and placing those events in past tense as they are entered is no more work than putting them there in present tense. The only distinction would be what is currant and ongoing status. For example "Gaius Baltar is the VP in the government" which stays like that until events change that, which would be editing that entry to add whatever event changed that anyway. In fact having both be present tense would be really awkward from a readers perspective. I would also point out that it is not "false documentary" so much as "false document" i.e. if there were an up-tp-the-minute encyclopedia that covered the vast array of things '''within''' that BSG universe that was "passed through" the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscenium proscenium] to us here, that is the style of content about the things within the show which I posit, should be presented in the relevant verb-tense. And the "outside the proscenium" content, about the show, the actors, episode summary, analysis, and comparisons between series, etc. would all be in the present tense which, I agree is much more natural and engaging. I don't honestly see it as more work once the bulk of such tense resolution is done to the exiting content where needed, and as I have posited (probably to the point you guys wanna toss me out the nearest door me already, sheepish grin) would hold much more appeal to me and I am sure others of whom it is demonstratively evident there is an audience for, otherwise fandom and official creation of things like blueprints, tech manuals, etc. for other series stuff, which is presented as if they were "genuine documents" from said universe depicts in those various shows, would not be so prevalent. Again, not trying to be cantankerous or difficult. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::::: I would also really prefer past tense. Like Lestatdelc says, it creates the feel of the article being real. Starwars Wiki always uses past tense, and refers to the articles as being written "in-universe", which to me sums up why past tense is so good. Writing is present tense sounds like someone is writing the events as they watch them on TV, which kind of takes you out of it. Also, I personally find present tense just seems really clumsy. It's like reading a little childs picture book (without so many pictures, and uh, bigger words :) ). Day makes an good point about keeping with the documentary style, and as for alternate series and spoilers, just check how starwars wiki handles non-canon and spoilers. It would be a bit of work to change, but not too much if lots of people work on it. One more point, it might be easier to convince those who are new here to write in past-tense than in present-tense (which seems like an uphill battle). Anyone else agree, or are us pro-past-tense people just in the minority here?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:13, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::As I've stated above, the "in-universe" conceit does not appeal to me at all. Present tense prose is more difficult to write than past tense, but I think the results are crisper and sound more professional. The process forces one to pay closer attention to their writing style.
::::::::As for your comment about convincing "those who are new here to write in past-tense", I find that notion troubling. This matter is such that there can only be one standard. The purpose of the Standards and Conventions process is (naturally) to create and promulgate a consistant style. If you wish to change the policy, discussion here is the place to effect it, not through unilateral action. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::You've misunderstood me, I was merely suggesting a change - one which I don't expect will happen, and I'm fine with that. My comment was that at the moment people are coming in and writing past-tense, and having to be told to write in present-tense as they have not read these standards. I was saying that one advantage of changing the standard to past-tense would be that they would probably not have to be told. I'm not about to tell people to go against the standard - that we have one standard is more important than what it is anyway.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 00:11, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::: I also think that present tense sounds more academic. As has been noted before (more than once), this style was initially adopted chiefly because that is the accepted academic style when writing about works of fiction. This is one of the ways in which we attempt to be encyclopedic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:55, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Ranks and Locations ==

Okay. So I was playing this [[:Template:Quote of the Day/09 29|this quote]] and I ran into an issue. In Civillian Speak, I'd call Apollo "''[[Galactica]]'''s [[CAG]], Captain [[Lee Adama]]", but I have an inkling that in Military Speak he'd be something like "[[CAG]] (''[[Galactica]]''), Cpt. [[Lee Adama]]" or whatever. You'd only use this when needing to differentiate him from, say, the [[CAG]] (''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''), but we might want to. Same goes for [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Laird]]. Does someone with a better grasp of military (specifically US Naval, if possible) conventions with respect to this have a suggestion on what kind of convention we should adopt? I'd love it if it didn't conflict with the current Quote of the Day episode convention (since ''Pesgasus'' is half of the ships this is likely to apply to), but we can always change the QotD thing, if we have to. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:04, 6 December 2005 (EST)

:I've tended to use the military abbreviation style as the Army used that I learned while a civilian employee.
::ADM, CDR, MAJ, COL, CPT, LT, LTJG, ENS
::CPO, SGT, PVT, SPC
::Deck Hand, Recruits have no specific abbreviation I can find.

:All caps, no spaces or punctuation. There should be plenty of Internet resources for this. And RDM has already noted the format he used, taking it mostly from the Original Series and his military experience. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:15, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: Enlightening (and I'm just glad someone replied to this at all), but somewhat tangental to my wonderment. I guess it was really about how we're supposed to specify where people are assigned when they have a specific role. In "Pegasus" Tigh and Fisk are both Colonels, but they're ''also'' both XOs, so for would we call one "COL Tigh (XO, ''Galactica'')" and the other "COL Fisk (XO, ''Pegasus'')"? Or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:49, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: They would be referred to as ''Galactica'' XO and ''Pegasus'' XO repectively. They're referred to by position first, not by name. Unit, Position, rank, name. [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 16:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So, I guess, with relation to the quotes, we don't really need to say where given characters are assigned... I don't know why I'd gotten that need into my head, really. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:59, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== Image Format ==

Mostly, the images I upload have been .jpg files. That's just what I tend to use on the web by default. However, because we scale our images a lot (i.e. all out thumbs), would it be more prudent to use .png formatting which, I hear, scales better? And, if that's so, should we make a note on this page about preferred image formatting (though, as long as it shows up alright, I don't see why we'd discriminate)? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:09, 23 December 2005 (EST)

:Most imprudent. PNG is far less efficient at compressing photographic images than JPEG. All image scaling is handled by the wiki software, and based on the original JPEG, so no significant generational degredation should exist.
:PNG has its own distinct uses, and is much better than JPEG at line art and schematics. I think this is commonly understood by most internet users, and I don't think that we need an explict policy on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 23 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Control Station ==
I was working on identifying and classifying unused images that have been uploaded, rather than deleting them outright (at Peter Farago's suggestion). While I started this with the intention of it being something I could handle myself, it has been suggested that it might merit a project or sub-project. I wanted to see if there was any consensus for a project that:

"would take over the Images section of Standards and Conventions (since that's not really where that shouold live, ultimately), and it would cross-coordinate with Characters. I'd want to call it something like Aft Image Control or Auxilliary Image Control... Or, failing those series-references, the Ministry of Images ([[User talk:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/#Project?|Day]])."

Potentially I would move [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|The Island of Misfit Images]] to a Project namespace with a more Galactica-themed title, but it would be a subpage/project of the Image Control Station (to avoid slamming bandwidth-challenged folks that might stumble across the Control Station). The actual control station would be more of a place that coordinate all the image related project pages (present and future).

So the main options I'm proposing are, a project page for Images in general with a subproject for misfit images, just a project/subproject for the misfit images (and we'll link to it from somewhere), or just leave it in Steelviper's user space. (Though I'm open to other ideas as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I'm, perhaps obviously, in favor of an entire images project. It could also consume Requested Images and have a section for images that we have, but might need bigger/less blurry/just better versions. I think, too, it should probably eat the "List of Characters Wanting Pictures" over at Characters, and have a link to it from there, instead. I mean... while we're doing all this, if we do. However, I think another few opinions are needed before diving off and making the page and doing all this moving and cross-linking, etc. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm in favor of moving Steelviper's Island of Misfit Images to the Battlestar Wiki namespace, under its current title. I'd like requested images to remain a separate page, although they should be cross-linked to each other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::: Why's that, Peter? Just for ease of finding for new users or so that all those images aren't on the requested page (we were thinking, or I was, that the Island would be a sub-page of whatever project it became part of) or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::It's no favor to my position that I can't articulate my point well, but I just don't feel that either image requests or image deletions would be a logical subcategory of the other. Better just to have Image Requests refer users to check the Island before making a request, and the Island refer users to Image Requests before deleting an image. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:47, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Hrm. I see your point, but I wasn't thinking that one would be, well, inside the other, for lack of a better phrase. I was more thinking of a hierarchy like this:

::::: '''Images Project'''
:::::* Requested Images
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** Locations
:::::** Equipment
:::::** etc.
:::::* Island of Misfit Images
:::::** As currently organized
:::::* Images needing improvement
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** etc.
:::::* Images to be deleted

::::: It's not precisely clear there, but they're all on the same level, I'd just put the Misfits on a page of their own to keep load times to a minimum. Maybe that's too ambitious, though? Anyway, now if you disagree, I at least am certain you know precisely what you're disagreeing with. I'm not sure I was entirely clear before. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:10, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::What goes on the hub then, besides links to the sub-pages? I do agree that an "images needing improvement" category or project would be good for when we ultimately want to upgrade from TV captures to DVD screenshots. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Any updates on this? So far the only action proposed (by somebody other than the guys trying to sell the "Control Station") is moving the island to the BW namespace. It's been around long enough that I'd be comfortable doing that if there is consensus that it belongs there. People might be more willing to hack and slash on it if it were out of my user area (even though people are already welcome to tear into it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:46, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:Please, go ahead with this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== Dates ==

Do we have a convention for dates? I am referring here to ''Earth'' dates; i.e., those pertaining to the production, such as brodcasts and DVD releases. I have seen at least these four: "Jan 20 2006", "January 20 2006", "20 January 2006", and "January 20th, 2006". Which is preferred? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:46, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:Note sure. Didn't know if it really mattered. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: Personally, I prefer "4 January 2006", but that's me. I think having the whole month out is goo, whichever order we decide on. Normal American convention is "January 4, 2006". So... that's my two cubits. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:13, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::I'm partial to the "4 January 2006" format, myself. M/D/Y is a crime against civilized mathematics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree too. Plus, the M/D/Y format may be more confusing to non-US readers. (For example the UK does D/M/Y)[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::For what it's worth, as I was going through all the eposide info boxes, I found the majority to be in "January 4 2006" style, so I attempted to unify to that format as I went along. I agree with the mathematical elegance of D/M/Y, however, and I dislike the comma and the ordinal number. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:34, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Yeah. Ordinals suck. I don't care whether we put the date before the month or after, as long as it's clear what each piece of data is. The only argument for using ##/##/#### is to ease the understanding of non-English-speaking people, but--if we want to do that, we need to make translations for the whole Wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:38, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Y-M-D, all numeric, is easily the nicest for sorting, so I'd say it's the one with "mathematical elegance" by virtue of its computer science elegance. That said, "10 March 2006" is the nicest for instant reading clarity and agrees with the output of <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Commas are a waste, and ordinals would be horrific.
:::::: Anyway, someone should actually put up a consensus if this counts as one; I don't mind going through and standardizing them some day relatively soon. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:53, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:So, have we decided what date format is to be used? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:58, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Battle pages ==

I realize that although I created the battle pages, I never clearly set out the format they should take. Basically, they try to imitate real world battle pages at Wikipedia as much as possible. Using this, I created battle boxes for the entire Lord of the Rings battles series, then just re-applied it here. I'm going to be revamping the boxes in the next few days (no info changes, just formatting changes, nudging, etc. little fixes). However, because they should try to follow real world battle, they should try to stick as closely as possible to these. Long story short, there are 3 basic categories that an "engagement" should fall into:

* A) Battle - large scale engagements
* B) Skirmish - small scale, but noteworthy, engagements
* C) On *''rare''* occasion, alternative names can be used. This largely consists of the "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]" which was less a battle a more of a slaughter. This was then re-applied to the "Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards" because it was part of the larger "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]". But this was really an exception, for reasons which I think are obvious. I mean, if ever the Galactica crew destroys the entire [[Cylon homeworld]] with a [Wikipedia:Christopher Blair|Temblor Bomb] in season 5 or so, we'd call it the "Fall of the Cylon Homeworld", but otherwise this term is reserved only for engagements resulting in massive damage. Another notable exception is the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]"; you see the Battle of the Philippine Sea is so commonly known as the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", and RDM said it was directly inspired by this, that I thought it fitting to alter the name to fit that (that, and it took place in an unspecified region of interstellar space, and Basetars don't often have names. I mean, if a Basetar named "''Truth and Reconiciliation''", this battle would be called "Battle of the ''Truth and Reconciliation''" or something. But the engagement in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" didn't have this. However, "[[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]]" ''did'' have a notable ship with a name in it, so it became "Battle of...etc".

Further ground rules to lay out are what actually deserves an article: officially, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]" is about the smallest engagement we're ever really going to make a page for. Generally, something deserves an article if:

*1) A Colonial ship is destroyed (Vipers, Raptors, etc). They can't easily be replaced, and the loss of even one can be considered a blow. (The upcoming engagements in "[[Scar]]" might be a skirmish instead of a battle, depends how many ships are involved at once).
*2) A massive number of Cylon vessels is destroyed, making the engagement a noteworthy event. For example, the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]" resulted in no Colonial losses ''whatsoever'', yet so many Cylons (hundreds of ships) were destroyed that it warrants it's own page.

An example of something that would ''not'' deserve it's own page is like when 2 Raiders were destroyed in "[[Final Cut]]", with no Colonial losses. No personnel or ships were lost, and the losses to the Cylons were insignificant in the extreme (considering that they still have production facilities and the Colonials do not).

As a rule of thumb, any engagement that involves a Battlestar or a Basestar firing it's own guns at the enemy is a "Battle" (Battle of the Coral Sea was a full scale battle, yet no enemy ships directly engaged each other; just fighters). However, if a Battlestar launches Vipers, but doesn't actually get involved in a small scale fight against enemy fightercraft, it's ''probably'' not a battle (case in point, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]".

Nextly, we have the matter of Commanders and Casualties. We don't know who the heck is commanding the Cylon Fleet or if there are "commanders" in the sense we think of aboard the Basestars. Thus they should be left as "unknown" (though if a Basestar is destroyed, you can assume the "commander" died, also if the entire Cylon force is wiped out). Mind you, if we ever see Number Six standing in a Basestar giving orders during a battle, if she actually gives orders she may be listed as a commander. Usually, a Commander is the highest ranking person present; don't bother to list Colonel Tigh if he never actually takes over command from Adama at any point. We should list "Admiral Cain AND Commander Adama" because Adama wasn't really serving "under" her at the time but by joint agreement, etc (complicated).

Casualties are easier now in Season 2; count how many people died in the episode who were *''not''* involved in the battle, then subtract that from next week's survivor count. For example, in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" two people died that weren't in the battle: Admiral Cain and an unnamed ''Pegasus'' Marine. Thus, when we see the survivor count in "[[Epiphanies]]", we should subtract 2 from it, and us that as "casualties" (I got the idea from "Battle of Kobol").

"[[Battle of Kobol]]" was on the whole a messy, drawn out affair as I think you will agree. We agreed that there's a cut off point where Centurion actions in "Home, Part I" no longer count as a battle or skirmish because it was so small scale (again, no Vipers were destroyed, etc).

As for "Numbers" we are keeping a running tally of ships, though "Cylon" numbers are a little tricky. I just go with "associated Raiders and Heavy Raiders" when a Basestar is involved, when no numbers are stated on screen.

As for forces, it's "Cylons" not "Cylon Alliance" (from TOS) because we have no idea what the political structure of the Cylons is. For every battle after the massive loss of 118 Battlestars in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, every other engagement after this is done by "Remnants of the Colonial Fleet".

I hope that sorts out stuff for now. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: That's ''awesome'', Ricimer. Now, before we put it up on the main S&C page, I think it needs some concising, though it will be key to not let it become less clear. I would suck at that job, so... please someone else volunteer. I'd also like to see the battle box become a template (as mentioned on your talk page), for ease of changing it if we need to and also for ease of CSS-ifying it so that it can change with themes, eventually. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::As noted on [[Talk:Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], I continue to prefer "Attack on" for situations where the target is named but the battleground is not. As for [[Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]], there is no reason why "Battle of" wouldn't encapsulate that idea accurately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Because it's doubtful if shots were even fired by the Colonials at Scorpion; it was a one-sided slaughter, but nonetheless deserved it's own page. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::That's a fair point. I continue to believe that "Battle of" is inappropriate when the field of battle has not been specified. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I'm sorry but this is the format that more or less works. "Battle" is a standard name. "Attack" sounds like a Doolittle Raid, as opposed to the MASSIVE engagement we just saw. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::::Your ''ex cathedra'' assertions on style are unbecoming. I am interested to hear the opinions of other users, particularly Joe, who named the page in the first place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::I fail to see what is rude about this: rather than simply editing pages as I saw fit, you ''told'' me to make a full write up of my view on the subject here, and then let consensus agree or disagree: you are chastising me, for doing as you requested? That said, not ''ex cathedrda'', but with ''plenitudo potestatis'' :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:54, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I went to Wikipedia hoping to find a definitive pattern to follow, but came up empty. [[Wikipedia:Battle#Battle naming|Naming Battles]] Apparently the british had a whole committee for this purpose ("British Battles Nomenclature Committee"). While almost all of the battles listed in Wikipedia follow the "Battle of" convention, they are always followed by a geographic reference (which we're not really going to have in this case). If we're going to name it after the resurrection ship, we might consider the outcome as well. Rather than just calling it the "Attack of", we might consider the fact that the result was its destruction. In Star Fleet Battles there was a scenario called "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" that always stuck in my mind (a Klingon ship attacks a greatly disadvantaged ''Hood'', usually resulting in its destruction). I guess that would be similar to "Fall of the Twelve Colonies." ("Destruction of the Resurrection Ship"?) Although that would certainly spoil the ending if someone hadn't seen the episode. Sorry not to be able to take a decisive stand, but hopefully some more people will weigh in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Good info there. Well, If it was them ''surprising the Resurrection Ship alone'', I would go with "Destruction", but instead it was an all-out battle to destroy it, case in point it's the only ever engagement between ''multiple'' Basestars and ''multiple'' Battlestars. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::That's a good point. With all this focus on the Resurrection ship, I lost sight of the fact that it was essentially a non-combatant. It was the strategic objective, but the actual firepower lay in the basestars and the raiders. I guess naming would have been a lot simpler if they gave us a goofy sector name like the TOS would often do (Hatari sector, etc) to use as a geographic landmark. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I still think "Attack on the Resurrection Ship" is descriptive, succinct, and has a good ring. The fact that the actual combat didn't involve it is incidental - the Resurrection ship was the primary target, and it certainly ''was'' attacked. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 21 January 2006 (EST)\
:::"Battle of the Resurrection Ship" is just as descriptive and succinct when you think about it, and I personally believe that it has a bad ring. Funny thing was, remember when they were doing that recon mission near a moon? (orange one that they flew by in Res Ship Part I), I had hoped that would provide a location (like the Red Moon with Starbuck, etc) however, the actual battle did not take place near there at all. Of course, what WOULD we have called it? Old ''Red Dwarf'' joke about that. It's a "bluey-green planetoid"...they're ALL bluish-green planetoids! (no names, etc). At any rate, it wasn't just attacking that ship; it was a full scale battle between the Basestars and Battlestars. That said, Galactica vs. Pegasus should be deleted, because I intend on merging any relevant information into a short paragraph for "Battle of the Resurrection Ship"; I'm just busy and can't do a full write-up yet. Monday.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:32, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::My sentiment is that "Battle of ~" should be used with the location or nucleus of a battle. I agree with previous comments that the Resurrection Ship was effectively a stationary set piece around which the battle was waged. That it was destroyed does not disqualify it from functioning as a virtual location. The time and place of the battle were directly related to the presence of the Res Ship, so I believe it functcions as a location for our purposes. Insofar as that translates to S&C, shall we say "Battle of ~" necessitates a location, but that locations can include noncombatant targets? (Even if they possess mobility.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 22:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::On the matter of survivors, we absolutely should not assume that every off-screen casualty that happens between episodes in which a battle takes place was caused by said battle, although it certainly provides an upper limit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Oh, I just meant "follow the pattern we already established with "[[Battle of Kobol]]", that is, say in the casualty box "XX number at most; survivor count decressed by YY, but ZZ number were scene to not die because of the battle" etc. (well, shorter than that). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:28, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ages ==

As has come up [[Talk:Saul Tigh#Age|elsewhere]], I'd like to get the age thing going here. I think, by and large, ages should not be included. In the case of Saul Tigh (and any others who meet these criteria after), I think we should include it. Here's my plan: The numbers ''must'' be a link to a note at the bottom citing the source of the information. If that means including a bunch of math at the bottom, so be it. If it gets too big and complex, then we can move it to, say, "Saul Tigh/Age" or whatever. This way, the information is as transparent as we can make it, without muddying up the template with justifications right there. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:FYI, footnotes do not appear to work inside the character data template. I'm not sure why. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ship gender ==

Which pronouns shall we use for ships? I believe the normal convention is for friendly (for our purposes, colonial) vessels to be referred to as female, and enemy (Cylon) craft as male. IIRC this is consistent with Galactica-Boomer's terminology for the captured raider. (Thus, enemy craft repurposed to the colonials retain their masculine identity.) I would suggest that gender-neutral pronouns for ships should be avoided when possible, if only as a matter of taste. Thoughts? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:16, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I believe the current convention is the female for all ships ([[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Ships]]). I've not heard of using male for enemy ships. I do agree that gender neutrality ought to be avoided, if only to make it easier to translate into Spanish (I'm not very familiar with gender neutrality in that language, other than generally defaulting to masculine). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I've never heard of enemy ships being referred to in the masculine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I must have hallucinated it, then. Very well, feminine it is. (Boy do I feel silly for missing the item in Standards and Conventions. I did a search on "gender" but somehow glossed over the big ol' heading.) Thanks for the input. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:17, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but I think it makes sense to leave pronouns neutral when referring to ships in a general sense or on a class basis ("If it is armed, the Blackbird likely fires the same ammunition…") and make them feminine when referring to a ship by name (''Laura'' quickly proves her worth…). Kosher? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Sounds right. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:50, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Most navies refer to their vessels in the feminine. I do know that the Russian Navy does refer to its vessels in the masculine.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Ah! That must be where I got tangled up. I bet I read a cold war spy novel a decade ago and misremembered the convention. Thanks, Ricimer. Now... can anyone confirm that Galactica-Boomer called the captured Raider a he? If so, should all Autonomous Raiders be masculine? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 04:22, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== XHTML Compliance ==

So. We all (should) know that and are ''Bad''. However, it's (apparently) less common knowledge that all is bad as well. For the [http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ DOCTYPE] of this website, it should be . All tags must be closed in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional Doctype. I've also learned that <s> is ''equally'' bad for XHTML Documents. Apparently, the tag to be using is <del>. Just thought I'd put this up here and see if anyone had any thoughts before moving it to the S&C page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:08, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:This would be particularly relevant if we were using a strict doctype, which, god-willing, will never happen. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:11, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:: Well, yes, I think it would be a bad idea to expect all Wiki contributers to know how to follow strict and to take the time to do it (we use tables for a lot of our formatting stuff), but While we have the Transitional Doctype, I think we should try to do at least that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:33, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::: If bots are enabled, I could get a bot to sit on the server and go through the pages and change tags to XHTML and then also to Wiki code.

== Policy? ==
This is policy right? Because then we can add the <nowiki>{{Policy}}</nowiki> tag on the page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 18:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"==

I propose that we replace the term "[[Humano-Cylon]]" with "[[humanoid Cylon]]". The term didn't really expand much outside of BattlestarWiki; I've heard Humalon, BioCylon, Cylon Agents, etc. and other frequent combinations out there. That's not why I want to change it though. In light of the fact that there will soon be a Human/Cylon Hybrid on the show, and I've put a lot of thought into this over several days, and I can only come to the conclusion that leaving the terms as they are will lead to dreadful confusion unless changed. I mean, they were called "Humano-Cylons", "Humalons" because they're Cylons that are "like" Humans, but now we're going to have a Hybrid that is a genuine cross between the two on a cellular, nay, molecular level. I know it will take a lot of work (I'm willing to do it), but I think we should phase out "Humano-Cylon" because it was never canonical, and will be all too readily confused with the hybrid. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)
:I agree that Humano-Cylon should go. The term initially struck me as clumsy, though I didn't question it because it was so widespread in the Wiki. I wonder if we could get by with plain old "Cylon" when the context is clearly RDM; Centurions, after all, are usually called out as such. Within the world of the show, the usual term seems to be Cylon. I also feel we should avoid adopting other contrived portmanteaux (Humalon et al.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)
::That is a good point, and a surprisingly elegant solution. I approve. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:54, 24 January 2006 (EST)

On top of this, I think it's time that we created a page for the [[Cylon-Human Hybrid]]; info is gathering and Sharon's daughter is going to be a pivotal character eventually (consquently, I've heard that the later episode of Stargate SG-1 season 9 will focus on Vala Mal Doran (Claudia Black) returning with a "miracle pregnancy", unfortunately her daughter turns out to be the physical manifestation of the bad guys, the Ori, and she will be sort of the bad guys "messiah" figure in their 10th season. It makes you think...). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

And while I'm on the subject, I think that she should make separate character pages for Cylon "copies" that develop individual traits over time. For example, we should keep a main "Sharon Valerii" page, with stubs for the main articles for "Galactica-Sharon" and "Pegasus-Sharon". Also, Gina should probably have her own page separate from the main Number Six article, as she's differentiated into a separate character.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I also agree we should split the Cylon copies. Perhaps (using your example) the "Sharon Valerii" page might well be nothing more than a disambiguation, and contributers would be encouraged to link directly to "Sharon Valerii (Galactica)" or "Sharon Valerii (Caprica)". Migrating all the links would be a substantial project, but one I feel is worth taking, and sooner the better. As for naming convention - it might not work every time, but perhaps the location where that copy is first introduced? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::This is long, so forgive me, but there are important issues that change our nature that I cannot agree to.

::Let's deal with the terminology change first. I had my qualms about "humano-Cylon" when I first saw it, but it is an efficient term to differentiate these beings from robotic Cylons here, especially given that the show has not really furnished a unique term. "Cylon Agent" is the closest that the show has used, with "human models" and "Cylon humans" after that. ''Battlestar Wiki'' has many articles that use descriptive terms as placeholders in lieu of a canonical name: "[[Presidential security service]]", "[[Identification Tags]]", and "[[Colonial wireless alphabet]]" are other examples. "Cylon agent" can be used as a placeholder redirect if one is tired of typing it, but we need more reason than "we don't like the term" to change "Humano-Cylon" now, as it appears on many, ''many'' articles here. And frankly, it's grown large enough that purging it will be very difficult. Our naming conventions are here for a reason, so making exceptions for the Sharon Valeriis diminishes our effectiveness as an encyclopedia, which MUST NOT be ambiguous, strive to keep to the basic definition and not wallow about in subdefinitions as an unnecessary article into itself--which is what you are proposing. "Humano-Cylon" is ''very'' popular here, and what goes on in the "outside world" doesn't really matter in the context of maintaining this wiki, so long as others can use their own terms and we provide appropriate redirects to our article as appropriate. I understand the spirit of what you're suggesting, but we lack a sufficient "why", in my opinion. Although I see a good reasoning between what are "Cylons" in RDM and what are "robot Cylons" that can withstand further debate, I think we should adjust the wiki as the characters do: when the characters begin to see the Cylons with human traits and not a machine to be shut down, our data here should reflect it. Otherwise, differentiating them to any large degree would be like writing bios on the "Borg" drones from "Star Trek." No point, as they are all generally the same.

::Two: Sharon's baby has '''not been born yet'''. Do ''not'' assume it will come to term. Imagine the holy hell that the Cylons will unleash if they learn that it ''doesn't''. Imagine the political hell in the Fleet if it ''does''. Either way works well for the writers, so we can't make the assumption. Ron Moore has promised some radical changes for the Fleet at the end of this season, and much of this could involve that child to be. Once we know for certain that this hybrid is born and is even given a name, then a page is quite appropriate and necessary. But until then, creating an article for this or any other hybrids or proposed character to-be goes against our sourcing policies (it's speculation until shown in an episode) and is premature (no pun intended).

::Three: To differentiate between the Valerii's and other Cylon agents is asking for trouble at present. They are identical in creation and mission; if they begin to vary on that mission, a subarticle is written. The [[Number Six]] article shows at least three variations and it appears to work well. Now, a number of articles are becoming long, true. But, as a wiki, we haven't created a policy yet as to how to break up or concise such data as it relates to these character bios. We ''have'' worked out a process for the [[Cylons (RDM)]] and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article series, which could be adopted for the characters with some thought. Changes that are more POV or assumptive like these, and less in form to the wiki's overall format or mission are detrimental, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::I don't think the show has yet provided a canonical term to distinguish the "human models" from the more mechanical models. I think "Cylon Agent" would be a good placeholder/redirect, but that's based on the writing on a folder and not consistent adoption within the show. One thing that hasn't been established well (at least in my mind) is WHO the Cylons are. Are the humanoid-cylons the new, REAL cylons (with centurions, raiders, etc. serving their interests)? Or are all models part of a true "Cylon collective" (resistance is futile) where everybody is considered equally "Cylon". If the humano-Cylons prove to be the "real" Cylons, then I would see them taking more of a prominent role at Cylons (RDM). Until then, I think that any term we use is just serving as a placeholder.

:::Even if Sharon's offspring (I'm not sure if baby is the right word) comes to term and is born, I'm not sure that Cylon-human hybrids deserve an article of their own. Peanut butter gets an article, and jelly gets an article. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even get an article (being a distinct, important, and common combination of the other two). However, just because somebody once made a peanut butter and tuna sandwich doesn't mean that it necesarily would merit an article. The offspring would DEFINITELY merit its own article, but until proven otherwise would be a unique proof-of-concept. All information about her would represent the totality of what we know about the hybrids, until such time that more hybrids come into being. (That is if she even comes into being. Adama may yet "drown the baby in the pond.") --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::A note on the offspring: perhaps it would be fun to create a short, amusing-but-still-relevant biography page for the fetus ("prebiography"?), noting its (can we say "her" because Sharon said so?) unique physiological properties, Baltar and Six's fascination with her, political ramifications of her delivery or lack thereof. A nod, if you will, to the "life begins at conception" faithful. I realize such a page could easily become political, insulting, or trivial, but I think it's worth a shot. Treating the subject like a regular character bio affords plenty of oppurtunity for ironic humor as well, as with the [[Toaster]] article. Yeah? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:39, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::The Cylon-Human Hybrid article cannot be created until after the episode in which it is born. It is BattlestarWiki's firm policy to categorically deny the "life begins at conception" viewpoint and instead support the life at birth viewpoint. An embryo which is little more than a clump of cells, the potential for life, yes, but not life. Regardless, following the tenets [[Naturalistic science fiction]], BSG supports "realistic" ''science'', as opposed to "opinions". Creating the article ''before'' the child is born would undermine ''BattlestarWiki's'' established stance against "life begins at conception", and creating it before the birth would be like holding up a big sign saying "we support Life-At-Conception". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I hope I'm not stepping into a political debate here, because that is not my aim at all. But can you provide support for your claim that BattlestarWiki has a firm policy on this topic? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 15:00, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::''Battlestar Wiki'' has no policy on the matter of the status of a fetus, Ricimer. This is a ''non-sequitur'' that actually worsened your position, not reinforced it. In short: Don't make stuff up. Everyone here can see and (and in most cases, edit) all policies. That said, jumping down to new thread and clarification... --15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::No, no, sorry; I was being really sarcastic. Sorry, I thought everyone could tell. Well, if not, "that life at conception is a policy thing I just wrote was just a sarcastic joke". I appologize for the inconvenience. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:06, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::As for the Valerii problem... I think that's going to be a tricky issue. "Caprica" Valerii does seem to behave distinctly differently from "Galactica" Valerii, and both of those differently than the other "Caprica"/command Valerii. I'm not sure it has been definitively proven whether they are unique individuals, or whether they are just playing different roles based on what the mission calls for. Personally I like the current grouping by "model", though I might more seriously rethink if their individuality/uniqueness is eventually proven. I think "Downloaded" would be pretty decisive (if it hasn't been canceled as rumored).

:::Feel free to copy my sig to any of these if you need to repond to an individual issue. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

A few points to clarify:

'''One''': I didn't suggest this simply because I "don't like" the term "Humano-Cylon". I was actually okay with the continued use of it, until the Hybrids came along. The ''*ENTIRE*'' reason I have raised this issue of changing the name is officially "'''I think it will get confused with the Cylon-Human Hybrid'''". Just wanted to clarify that.

'''Two''': I did not expect the pages to be changed immediately, and I understand that Caprica-Sharon's daughter hasn't been born yet: The reason I ''put foward'' the issue now, is so that we could have a lenghty amount of time to debate the issue and set up parameters and rules for this change here, in advance, so there will be less confusion later. Never too early to debate. I wanted to get the ball rolling.

'''Three''': Regardling the popularity and practical removal of "Humano-Cylon": How do we know it was ever "very popular"? I only used it because it was the term that this wiki was already using when I got here. Curious, can we have a show of votes here of who actually "likes" the term enough to keep it? (largely irrelevant, sorry, I'm just saying; How can we quantify it as "popular", when in the earliest days ("In the Long-Long Ago"...) BattlestarWiki used that name and redirected all future references to these begins to that page. ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc''.

What I meant by stating that it's "not used much outsite of BattlestarWiki" is that I mean it isn't based on anything outside of this wiki, ***so we can feel free to change it without being fettered by external constraints. I mean that changing it will not contradict other material out there.

As for "practical removal", recently we gutted this entire wiki updating "Commander Adama" to "William Adama" following his promotion to Admiral. If such as pervasive name as Commander Adama can be replaced and revised, surely there will be not so great difficulty in replacing "Humano-Cylon" with "humanoid Cylon", etc. (That's my personal choice, but any other name that ''doesn't'' sound like "Humalon" or something (the Hybrid confusion, etc) would be okay after a vote).

'''Four''': The separation of Cylon copies with distinct personalities into different character pages. I was willing to ignore this through season 1, but after hearing about "Downloaded" I realized that we'd have ''two'' copies of Sharon, each distinct from both the other standard Sharon-copies AND each other, on the show. And the more I thought about it, the more I think they have finally reached the point where they need to be considered separate major characters with their own pages. ***Again, we can do this after "Downloaded" airs, I just wanted to get discussion started now, so we know what to do ahead of time. Yes, I did PLAY AROUND with creating separate pages for both two days ago (after which made the request here in standards and practices), but at the time I wanted to raise interest in the issue and experiment with how this would work.

Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:To Spencerian's points on terminology: (1) The lack of a solid canonical term is a valid argument for keeping the old term ''only until a new term is agreed upon''. Clearly we do not wish to frivolously or rashly change the Wiki; hence this discussion. (2) The difficulty of the task is not a disqualifier, as Ricimer has stepped forward to take it on, and I'm certain others of our cadre will pitch in. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could not a search-and-replace bot easily change such a unique term as "Humano-Cylon"? (3) I don't see how this represents an exception for Sharon Valerii. I believe we're talking about replacing the term globally. Can you elaborate on this point? (4) If you are waiting for the characters to realize cylons are not merely machines to be shut down, I assume you are referring to the mainstream colonial opinion. There are plenty of characters (Helo, Baltar, all of the Cylons, and [[Demand Peace]], who give them a bit more credit. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:57, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Thanks for the clariification. On the work front, of course, the changing of the terms throughout isn't an impossible undertaking, but note that once a term is in use, it's hard to stop. In the case of the Cylons of RDM, an article is already there. To make the changes, we have to go all the way for all pages or not at all to ensure that referencing info, as well as the info itself, remains consistent. Ricimer's point #4, which I've suggested on the Valerii page, using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/parent page where subarticles for supporting characters that have appeared should keep article sizes down while organizing data well. I'm all for this idea the more I think of it. "Sharon Valerii" is like a class of ship (all generally the same), but each ship has a characteristic identity (Boomer, Caprica-Valerii), thus the parent page and subarticles for all major players. Sorry if I confused you on my thoughts on this.

::The Cylons, be they truly biological and not to be treated as machine, are still the central adversary of the Colonials. While the characters can make their judgements on what they see the Cylons to be, we as wikipedians just report what we see, ultimately--we don't make the "news". In other words, if Adama (who runs the Fleet) sees the Cylons as a threat, they still have to be reported here in that light. Helo and others may have differing opinions, which should also be added. We must spin interpretation very cautiously and not to interpret it as fact. With that, I'm in favor of "Cylon agent" (the most commonly used term in the show, IMO) for a H-O replacement, but still, "Cylons (no suffix)" may also have merit. Current aliases are still OK, but the convention would be for that. I also suggest that we form parent/child pages for each of the Cylons (see, I'm doing it already now that I understand the subtle point) to avoid confusion and oversized articles. This also prevents issues with over hyphenations: Picon-Valerii, Tauron-Valerii, Cheese Whiz-Valerii..you get the idea. And when/if the baby is born, she gets her own page as she will be quite unique (I hope). To keep from this thread going crazy again, let's go for support/oppose tags at your replies from here, with your suggestions on how or what to do with terms and page design. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Proposal===
There will be no special term for the human models. All references to Cylons in the Re-imagined series will be taken to refer to the humans, unless prefaced with "Centurion" or other relevant distinguisher. This is in line with the show's own usage, and avoids creating a non-canon term.

The article [[Humano-Cylon]] will be deleted. Its content will be merged into [[Cylon Models]], the individual overview pages for each cylon model, and a new page on potential cylon agents, with the previously discussed "whitelist" and "graylist" sections, as relevant.

Links to Humano-Cylon will be redirected to the [[Cylons (RDM)]] article cover-page (which will be spruced up, but probably remain fairly spare), or to various subsections, as appropriate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Counter-Proposal===
The human-appearing models of Cylon are indeed distinct enough that they deserve a special term. All references to Cylons in the re-imagined series don't necessarily refer to the humanoid models (we have no idea how these things are deployed, and in context, whe Lt. Gaeta shouts "Cylons incoming!" he's not talking about humanoid Cylons floating in space). Plent of times on the show they have made a distinction between the "mechanical variety" and "the human variety", so the "Proposal" would not, in fact, be "in line" with the show's own usage.

The article "[[Humano-Cylon]]" will remain entirely intact, but have its ''name'' changed to something else (my suggestiong would be "humanoid Cylons", but someone else might be able to come up with a better name and some ideas were tossed around above, etc). The contents of "Humano-Cylons" will not be merged. The ''already existing'' overview Character pages for the humanoid Cylon models will remain intact as they are now. There will be no new page for potential humanoid Cylons; it will remain a sub-section of the article dealing with the humanoid Cylons (as it is now). If by "whitelist" and "graylist" it is meant "people we suspect of being humanoid Cylons" and "people who it has been proven could not possibly be humanoid Cylons", such sub-headings will be added into the list of suspected Cylon Agents on "Humanoid Cylons".

Links to "Humano-Cylon" will be redirected to the new term ("Humanoid Cylon", for example, pending consensus on name). Humanoid Cylons models that have developed distinct personalities that have made them unique Characters on the show will be separated into having their own Character pages, while a stubb about these individual copies will be made in the article dealing with that particular "model" (as well as a link). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:38, 25 January 2006 (EST)

===Discussion of Proposals===
I think we may be trying to decide too many things at once. I think it would be much easier to make this decision in a couple of steps:

: A. Move all discussion of creating copy-specific pages on specific models to [[Talk:Sharon Valerii#Keeping Track of the Valeriis]], just so it doesn't get so confusing here. Really, that's the only character we're considering doing this to and once we make a decision on her, we can make that a policy without much discussion here.

: B. Do we want to change the term?

: C. What do we want to change it to?

: D. What does that entail?/Plan of Action/Enact PoA.

Now, I would not be opposed to changing the term. I agree it could be a bit confusing when/if Sharon delivers us a little halfling. One thing that's not been brought up when speaking of work load is the fact that not all references to Humano-cylons are links. So they'll be harder to track down than, say, all occurances of "Thrace, Kara". So, there'll be a lot of hand-searching, if you take my meaning, to be done. That being said, I don't think that's a reason not to change, really. What we ''do'' here is edit stuff.

On the point of C (really we could do my steps B and C together, without ''too'' much confusion), I support the change to simply Cylon. In a vast majority of cases context will make it readily apparent whether we're talking about Simon or a raider. In the few cases where we'll have to be more specific, then I think we could use "humanoid Cylon" or a "human-type Cylon" or "a Cylon of the human variety" (if you're not into the whole "brevity" thing) or any number of other circumlocutions that need not be standardized. As for changing the article name, we could make it "Cylon (human type)". I think it should continue to be an independant article because raiders and basestars have articles of their own... We just don't know what to call it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:What about putting it on the front page of [[Cylons (RDM)]]? We could list capsule descriptions of the known models there, just like The Twelve Colonies lists the individual colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:21, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:For me, part of the elegance of using the simple term "Cylon" is that it doesn't limit itself to the human-looking ones, but that context will take care of that for us nearly every time. Clearly, "cylons approaching" does not mean space-walking humanoids. But neither does "Tigh is a Cylon" imply Tigh may be a centurion, or a Basestar. Let's give folks some credit. Also, I must have been confused - I didn't realize we were only discussing branching the pages for Sharon. I think at the very least, Baltar's-Psychosis-Six and Gina have different enough agenda to merit different pages. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:: I may have mis-understood the issue of splitting, then, but I think it's different from adopting a replacement for "Humano-cylon", so I'd rather talk about it in another place, even if it's just further down on this page. As there's another place already in use, why not consolidate discussion to that place? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:23, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''Dicussion moved from [[Talk:Main Page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

Hello, I'm new and my edits have so far been of the proofreading type (that's what I'm good at), and I've noticed a particular area of inconsistency in commas/periods and quotation marks. Since it has been decided that we shall prefer American spellings, perhaps we should also use American punctuation style, which places commas and periods inside quotation marks. I have seen them this way a few places, but I've mostly seen the British style used, which places commas and periods outside the quotation marks. I don't care either way, but I think consistency is good so there should be a guideline one way or the other. [[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 08:40, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: IMO British style is much, much easier, both to write and to read. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:43, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Then perhaps we should declare "British style" the rule so that those of us who fret over punctuation can change the non-British occurrences to match.[[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 10:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::Welcome to the wiki, Bunchofpants. You've noted a significant inconsistancy we do, and I'm a bit guilty as well. Punctuation ''should'' (based on my experience) be within quotations (such as, "Kara, you're just crazy."). But, when dealing with episode references in parentheses, our convention is to place the punctuation after the episode reference, outside of the quotes. (Tyrol says "Put the gun down" ([[Fragged]]).) This convention, I think, is fine. However, in sentences without episode references, the punctuation should be inside. I'll need to check our policies, where, if we don't make up our own policy, we tend to stick with Wikipedia policy. Another administrator may also have an opinion to this. So that others can chime in, we should move this discussion to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

This is, I think, probably because we're on the internet. Apparently, I think according to the hacker slang dictionary which I don't have time to find a link to, it is very, very common amongst prolific internet users to use the British style, not because we're all Anglophiles, but because we tend to have a large cross section with the computer science community. Basically, if the period is not part of the quote, you don't put it so that the reader can tell ''exactly'' what goes in the quotes. Especially in help menus for *NIX systems, that use it so that you know the command is "hup" or whatever, rather than "hup." which would be wrong if "hup" were the actual command. Anyway... I like this system. The end. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:27, 5 February 2006 (EST) (Post Script: Let's allow a few days for discussion. Maybe move this to S&C? ''I HATE EDIT CONFLICTS'')

== After Questions...now Analysis? ==

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

: Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:: At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)
::I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::: I think we should shoot speculation as often as we find it, except where it is clearly marked. And I don't think we should let it become rampant. We moved all the Cylon Agent speculation stuff off of each character's page and onto a speculation page, for instance. I don't want to get into encouraging speculation on every single episode page. I like the Purge and Clense idea posed above by someone who didn't sign their post. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:29, 18 March 2006 (CST)

:::: The unsigned post was me, and the lack of signature an oversight. Sorry :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Although I agree that Question sections need '''extensive concision''' as we saw on LDYB II, one of the strengths of BattlestarWiki is that we have Questions and ''probable answers based on evidence''; if we remove ''all'' answers as was done on the recent revision to LDYB II, we remove one of the ''greatest'' features of ''BattlestarWiki''. I feel that answers to questions should be kept shorter than 2 lines, but so long as they stay on one line, and we don't run into a debate back and forth of like 5 things, we should keep them. And if there is a debate it goes to Analysis. I am adamant about this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: If a question has a probable answer based on evidence, then it simply isn't a question any more :-) I'm OK with the idea that we use the Question section to gather answers and possibly gain Analysis points that way, but once we have those answers, the questions should be moved or removed (or, if the answers are purely speculative, the answers purged).

: I also disagree that Analysis should be used for debate. There is no section of the encyclopedic pages that should be used for debate. That's what Talk pages are for. Analysis does not mean, "This is where we nitpick the episode and each others' points to death". It should ultimately read like one person analyzing the episode. Someone suggested it should even be reformatted at some point into a narrative rather than bulleted presentation, and I agree.

: It's not that I don't agree that one of the strengths of this sort of site is bringing fans together to talk out and even occasionally to nitpick. It's just that I think that's what Talk pages are for, not encyclopedic pages. --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No. The point is that we aren't bringing up "speculation" but that we are pointing out facts, back and forth. For example, "Was Cain lying to Starbuck about wanting to take back the Colonies?" could be followed by "Cain has been seen to be manipulative" followed by "Cain also honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons", etc. Yes, there are "Questions" and it ''remains'' a questions even if we offer ''insight'' into it. No, we should not move the questions once these points have been raised. Analsis is not officially "debate" but it is what it's name implies; "Analaysis" i.e. counterpoints and so forth, based on Fact; that is, not just listing our opinions, but weighing the facts against each other. Either way, the rules are loose when it comes to Analysis. '''No, it should not be moved into a narrative format; that's more confusing than a point by point bulleted list'''. No, this is not what Talk pages are for. Talk pages are just for discussion about what should go on the front, but let me reiterate; '''Remove this feature of the questions and you would GUT the best feature of BattlestarWiki'''. ------>I want the section on the front of this article of Standards and Questions describing how we handle Questions to be revised.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: I think, Merv, that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what the best feature of this Wiki is. And it's odd, because from what I've seen so far, you're actually a provider of what I think the best feature actually is: solid, detailed, well-researched and defensible information about the series, its stories, and its characters. The example you offer is a good one, but the moment good insight is provided for the question like that, I feel it could be moved to Analysis. Or, in this specific example, edited together to remain an unanswered question, but without the sense that people are "discussing" something, which has no place on encyclopedic pages: "On the one hand, Cain can be manipulative. On the other hand, Cain honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons. So: was Cain lying about wanting to take back the Colonies?" When all is said and done, if the Wiki is dedicated to Neutral Point of View, then encyclopedic pages need not to sound like they're arguing with themselves.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 22:41, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:In case there is any confusion about what I am saying we need it's; "Let's just keep doing what we've BEEN doing, and when a Question section like LDYB II's gets a little messy, ''clean it up as the situation requires''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::It seems like these sections (in both Espisode and Character guides) are getting very large and when someone is trying to save even a minor edit we will get an Overflow error. You might have seen it before. http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#Error_Message It might be better to place both of these sections of new pages. (i.e. LBYB, II, Question/Analysis). --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== Disambiguation Location ==

We should note that Disambiguation for pages that have more than one meaning should go on the top line of the page, below any "Global" template areas, such as delete, but above such Templates as "Episode Guide", "Character Data", and "Battle Template" area so the text stand out more. Otherwise it is cramped on between the left coloum and the right table and seems like part of the article, rather than Disambiguation data. It should also be tabed once and always italized. '''Comments?''' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:09, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Your choice of words seems very presumptious. I would have said something like, "I like the look of one tab and italics" or "The current convention seems to be..." or whatever, rather than being so proscriptive. I agree that we probably need a standard on this. One tab and italics is fine with me. Just noting that your attitude seems very... controntational. Does anyone else think a different formatting is better? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, that formatting is what I use and prefer, at any rate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-03-19T15:36:52Z

UncleMikey: /* After Questions...now Analysis? */

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-03-17T16:25:43Z

UncleMikey: /* After Questions...now Analysis? */

Because of their length, individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.
As further discussions are concluded, please move them to the archive as well, in order to keep this page topical and readable. If the first archive threatens to exceed 32 kilobytes, please create a new one. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]] for details.

'''Previous discussions:'''

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Verb Tense|Verb Tense]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards|Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Signing Your Work|Signing Your Work]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Spelling|Spelling]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Single-name Address|Single-name Address]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Episode Links and Formatting|Episode Links and Formatting]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters|Proposed Guidelines / Speculative Matters]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Quorum of Twelve|Quorum of Twelve]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Namespaces|Namespaces]]

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02|Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02#Disambiguation|Disambiguation]]


----

== Image Sizes ==

I tend to think that images that are whole-screen captures (and thus letterbox dimensions) should be about 300px wide. This is, however, based entirely on how that looks on my browser window, which is pretty large, but not maximized on a 1280x1026 resolution. So that might look horrid on some other screen. Anyway, with that in mind, I resize all my full-screen captures to be 600px wide since that's a nice two times what I think they should be viewed at. Should I be even thinking this way, or should I just be telling the articles to be thumbs and set my preferences for larger thumbs? In the case of cropped screen-caps, though, I think 300px is too wide, or rather, often too tall. How do others think on this? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:21, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:Yes, use your preference settings for this. FWIW, I'm a fan of judicious cropping. It helps make smaller thumbs more legible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:28, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:: If you're trying to illustrate something specific, sure, cropping is needed in most cases. However, for episode pages and, I think, when trying to show a scene, the whole screen is good for its sense of context. I could be wrong. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:09, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Image Credit ==

Okay... Most images are gonna be screen caps we get from the shows. In which case the credit should go directly to the SciFi Channel, SkyOne Network or Universal Studios. The question is, which one? Or should it be all three? Or does Universal own the two channels and so saying "Cedit: SciFi/SkyOne" is enough? Or... What do you guys think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 21 September 2005 (EDT)
: Universal Studios. They own the copyright. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:26, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
:: Following wikipedia's example, we don't need to credit image copyrights in-text, do we? It should be enough to note copyright status on the image's description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:27, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic ==

It's not very -o-Matic, is it? ;o) Anyway, I think we need a standard for how they're formatted. I prefer the following:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."

:--''Rank and Name in Italics'' ("Episode Name")

It would also be nice to figure out how to go and look at quotes entered for days other than the current day. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:00, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

::As far as looking at previous quotes, that's a Joe question, though it would be welcome. Joe mentioned that the template info has to be added manually, but a creative wikipedia might work something out from a large database. At first I added at most 2 lines as a quote, but now I stick to one quote. I think the style you noted worked well (it did for my two contributions this week), so let's see if we all say so. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:50, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, if you want to keep track of all the quotes, why not just add them to [[:Category:Quotes]]? Theoretically, every quote should then be linked from that category page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:44, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: However, it's a bit late for quotes already put up, no? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:49, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Wait. Is [[Quotes|this page]] automated somehow? If so, then a Quotes category is kind of moot. I remember looking at it a while ago, though, and it having no date information and just a single quote in it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:04, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

On second thought, I prefer this:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."
:--Rank and Name in Normal (''Episode Name'')

For full exchanges I think something like this would work:

:'''Rank and Name 1:''' Humorous battle banter aimed at Speaker 2.
:'''Rank and Name 2:''' Scathing insult.
:'''Name 1:''' Pithy retort.
:--''Episode Name''

What do you guys think of this? If no one replies in a few days, I'll start soliciting opinions on people's talk pages and via AIM. After a few more days, I'll simply make an executive decision and put this policy up. I think it would be best to link it at the head of the [[Quotes]] page, too. When the time comes. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:05, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

::Day, I've been adapting that format (per your original thoughts) and I find it works well. My only problem is insuring a proper break between the quote(s) and the name and episode for single-quotation blocks. I think this thing has languished long enough to put up a quick vote or 5-day consensus/no-objection period, where we can make this the practice (and retrofit all recorded quotes to match if necessary). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 1 November 2005 (EST)

::: COnsider this that period. Also, do you mean you like the break, but you're concerned about adding it for some reason that I do not understand, or do you mean that your dislike tags? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:46, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:::: Okay. I'm about to put my above policy up. I think I'll have to play with it for a bit to get the display format the way I want it for ease of copying and for users who know nothing of HTML. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:02, 11 November 2005 (EST)

::::: I would suggest putting this policy (when it is finalized) and a note about not repeating quotes right on the [[Quotes]] page where the "This is a list of quotes..." statement is. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 19:59, 17 November 2005 (EST)

I noticed that people have started putting in quotes from the original series. I think this is great but in terms of standardization I would follow the same idea as used on the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha wiki]:
* If it is an original series episode, quote as [[TOS]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a 1980 series episode, quote as [[1980]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a re-imagined series episode, quote as [[RDM]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
[[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 13:46, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Not a bad idea, Nwobkwr, but it might get cumbersome. Might I suggest we use only the "TOS" flag for TOS and 1980 episodes, and leave the RDM episodes as-is? This gives a slant to the current series, but then, we will have many more quotes from RDM than from the old series since transcripts of the TOS/80 shows are far less available than the current. It also saves on visual complexity. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:30, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::I think we should put the dab in the episode credit, and only when there are episodes in each series with the same title. (basically, "The Hand of God".) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:53, 30 November 2005 (EST)

Another thing to consider. In light of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Quote_of_the_Day/09_30&curid=3654&diff=19411&oldid=19408 this] quote, should we allow non-BSG quotes on a longer-than-one-shot basis? I think it would be okay, but others (obviously) don't. I'd like a few more opinions and some actual discussion, rather than just editing. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:00, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Links ==

So, in my opinion, the first occurance of nearly any proper noun should be a link. Even the thing an article is about. This means that the first occurance of an article's topic will be in bold, which I think is nice. For longer articles, I think linking becomes kind of discretionary. If someone hasn't been mentioned (or linked, maybe) in a while, then they could/should be linked. Also, episode credits at the end of an event description should ''always'' be linked. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:19, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:Using links-to-self to bold title text is discouraged by the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles|Manual of Style]]. In general I think we should defer to Wikipedia for guidance except where we feel a justified need to explicitly contradict them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:02, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ah. I think that's probably wise. Should we, then, manually '''bold''' them (or, in the case of ship names, '''''bold-italicize''''' them), or leave it out all together? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:40, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Manually bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:41, 2 October 2005 (EDT)

== HTML ==

I, ah, didn't think this was exactly necessary, but, uh... I think, now, it might be. Do we need to make a note about preffering <nowiki>''</nowiki> to ? I see various posts that have several changes, but leave the HTML intact. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:51, 21 October 2005 (EDT)
: Agreed. Wiki sytnax should always supersede HTML sytnax. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:29, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
: Adendum: By the way, I created two templates: {{tl|s}} and {{tl|u}} for {{s|striking out}} and {{u|underlining text}}, respectfully. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:36, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::HTML isn't exactly tasteful, but isn't it preferable to templates? HTML and wikisyntax both retain their formatting if moved to another wiki, but anything formatted with templates won't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:17, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::: Good point, Peter... Maybe "hacking" MediaWiki might be an option, so as to create wikisyntax for underlining? Yes, this would undoubtedly create similar problems, but if a patch was submitted to the MediaWiki developers then they may introduce it (or something like it) into future versions of the software. Just a thought... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:58, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: What would you have the Wiki Markup be? Underscores and dashes, maybe? Might be dangerous, but perhaps it would require two of each in a row? Or three? I was thinking that _underline_ would render underline and that -strike- would render <s>strike</s>. However, I don't want underscores to mess up URLs or for strike-outs to mess up use of the em-dash, which is often substituted by the double-en dash (--). I'd just as soon use the HTML tags (except that it would get in the way of validating the HTML of the Wiki in XHTML 1.0 Strict, if that's a concern). Maybe we could use !!underline!! and !!!strike!!! or something. Ohoh! What about ``underline`` and ```strike```. Of course... you could go nuts and <nowiki>'''''`````italic bold underline strike`````'''''</nowiki> for '''''<s>italic bold underline strike</s>'''''. Sounds like a fighting more from some anime. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:52, 23 October 2005 (EDT)

== Verb Tense 2 ==

While it may be a "convention" within fiction articles about an episode, the verb tense issue is not using present-tense within an encyclopedia unless something is still ongoing. As I posted in the main page talk page and on a user whom made me aware of the verb tense issue, I posit that this convention be changed for the actual entries for the people, places, things. In other words, in the episode pages, the verb tense would stay as it is, but the verb tense in the individual article entries for say "Gaius Baltar" which would be the encyclopedic entry on him, would follow the norms and conventions used in other encyclopedias. That convention being, again using Gauis Balter's entry, the descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, whereas referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard Galcatica, etc. would be present-tense since this is the current state within the timeline of the show at present. This would of course be edited as events unfold within the show. If for example he is removed form office as VP, then the verb tense would change for that piece of information as well as adding in how he stopped being VP, etc.

Likewise passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper would be past-tense, while the current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II would be present-tense. Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia.

This sort of tense usage within things such as the ''Star Trek'' technical manuals, Omnipedia's etc., which match he tense usage of current "real world" encyclopedias. Again, not trying to be a bull in a china shop as the new guy on the block, but it is rather jarring to read encyclopedic entries which do not follow the verb tense conventions used in "real world" ones. [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 22:54, 1 December 2005 (EST)

:I can see why you feel that way, but past tense sounds horrible in a literary criticism context, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect "star trek encyclopedia"-style articles to be free of critical analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:26, 1 December 2005 (EST)

::I am not suggesting that the past tense be used in the literary criticism and or episode entries or sections, but in the encyclopedia type entries. It isn't just the ''Star Trek'' encyclopedias but encyclopedias et all which use the past tense for historical or background content and present tense about current status content. In other words, in all encyclopedias (and I post those style content sections here) would say:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' and after leaving office ''(past tense)'' now lives ''(present tense)'' in the State of New York and has ''(present tense)'' offices in New York City."

::If he were to move to Anchorage Alaska to live and had offices in Juno Alaska this would be updated in a real encyclopedia to read:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' after leaving office he lived ''(past tense)'' in the State of New York and had ''(past tense)'' offices in New York City, on Dec 2nd, he moved ''(past tense)'' to Alaska and now lives ''(present tense)'' in Anchorage and has ''(present tense)'' offices in Juno."

::To use present tense throughout this site, to be honest it reads awkward in many places. Not to mention that it does shatter the kinda cool suspension of disbelief aspect to have an encyclopedia ''Galactica''. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 00:38, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::The idea of a fictional "encyclopedia Galactica" is patently not this site's goal. We document plenty of in-canon stuff, certainly, but we have a great quantity of content given over to actors, writers, behind-the-scenes material, critical analysis, and three or four different incarnations of the series. I don't have any interest in working toward the false document mystique, personally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:35, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::: Well for me personally, that is 9/0ths of the appeal of wanting to work on things at this site. Particularly since BSG in its re-=imagined form is a rich subject to do just that, because of the attention to detail and "realism" as the underlying ethos of the show. Having a robust wiki that reenforces and builds out upon that quality of the show is, to my mind, ideal. Not saying you have to want that to, but it is a real cold shower for me perosnally. Just my 2/100ths of a cubits worth. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::I can appreciate Lestatdelc's arguments on using present-tense, and it took me a bit to digest, but I agree with the standing convention. I've recently discovered the Star Trek Memory Alpha wiki (wow, and to think such a wiki could be done is amazing to me) and reviewed a few pages at random. Many use past tense there, but some, like the page on the excellent episode, [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Enterprise_Incident "The Enterprise Incident"], is successfully written in present-tense. I suspect that Memory Alpha hasn't a verb tense convention there, but note how the active-tense generates a feel of the characters ''doing'' something, rather than being "historical". As Peter explained to me, fictional characters are always in the act of doing something each time you read or watch them--and after a time I realized how correct he was--it keeps the characterization alive to me and to the article. The use of the verb tense also makes it more challenging to write the article as good fiction tends to evolve--in an active voice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 2 December 2005 (EST)

::::::But we in theory are not advancing the story but discussing what has occurred on the show and describing the details of the universe presented in the show (as well as "about the show(s) themselves). If we take the notion of suspension of disbelief at face value, and imagine the events of BSG not being fiction and documenting the events and details there of, particularly in encyclopedic form we would present events which have occurred as past tense, and present status and ongoing things in present tense. What Peter has said up-thread is that there is no interest in such a thing for him personally (and it would seem that most concur) I would consider it unfortunate as this is a great missed opportunity. I think that such "false document" mystique is actually something that has rather large appeal, witness the massive industry of such things in the ''Star Trek'' fandom, from blueprints, tech manuals, omnipedias, and the entire supplemental industry to the RPG medium. As for other projects about fictional stories and their universes, I would point to things like the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda] which is based on the Tolkien universe. I don't wish to be a disrupting presence here, especially being a "nugget" as it were, but I think this is a bad call for a missed opportunity. I can envision a clear convention which would allow for discussing each incarnation of the series and the "about the show" aspect in tandem with the "in universe" repository of content about said universe in the style of such things as the Trek universe things of Omnipedia, Concodrance, Tech Manuls, etc. and the Arda/Tolkien examples. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::: If one cares to review the earlier verb tense discussion, I originally thought past tense was the Way To Go. However, now I stand with the current convention (I think this is also displayed in the past discussion, but I'm too lazy to check). I agree with the present-tense being used to talk about, say, the ''Oddesey'' or ''The Matrix'' or ''Friends'' or whatever, but those aren't, to me, the most compelling points, good as they may be. The compelling point is, once again, that I'm lazy. The amount of man-hours it would take to update the tense in every character bio every week while the show's not on hiatus is, well, a lot. We have a hard enough time with the stuff that's already within scope and I don't see Lest's reasons as nearly as compelling as the three against: Added workload, literary precedent, and more "alive" feel (to borrow Spence's word). And, more specifically, I, too, find the false-documentary idea only "eh" at best. The new series is shot in a way that kind of feels like a documentary, but let's leave that to them and let's us do our own thing. And, in any case, how would one account for multiple series and spoilers in a documentary? Bleh. We might have to start talking in alternate realities or [[railgun|adaptive physics]] if we went down ''that'' road. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:24, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: Well we would be updating the character entries anyway as new events unfold, and placing those events in past tense as they are entered is no more work than putting them there in present tense. The only distinction would be what is currant and ongoing status. For example "Gaius Baltar is the VP in the government" which stays like that until events change that, which would be editing that entry to add whatever event changed that anyway. In fact having both be present tense would be really awkward from a readers perspective. I would also point out that it is not "false documentary" so much as "false document" i.e. if there were an up-tp-the-minute encyclopedia that covered the vast array of things '''within''' that BSG universe that was "passed through" the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscenium proscenium] to us here, that is the style of content about the things within the show which I posit, should be presented in the relevant verb-tense. And the "outside the proscenium" content, about the show, the actors, episode summary, analysis, and comparisons between series, etc. would all be in the present tense which, I agree is much more natural and engaging. I don't honestly see it as more work once the bulk of such tense resolution is done to the exiting content where needed, and as I have posited (probably to the point you guys wanna toss me out the nearest door me already, sheepish grin) would hold much more appeal to me and I am sure others of whom it is demonstratively evident there is an audience for, otherwise fandom and official creation of things like blueprints, tech manuals, etc. for other series stuff, which is presented as if they were "genuine documents" from said universe depicts in those various shows, would not be so prevalent. Again, not trying to be cantankerous or difficult. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::::: I would also really prefer past tense. Like Lestatdelc says, it creates the feel of the article being real. Starwars Wiki always uses past tense, and refers to the articles as being written "in-universe", which to me sums up why past tense is so good. Writing is present tense sounds like someone is writing the events as they watch them on TV, which kind of takes you out of it. Also, I personally find present tense just seems really clumsy. It's like reading a little childs picture book (without so many pictures, and uh, bigger words :) ). Day makes an good point about keeping with the documentary style, and as for alternate series and spoilers, just check how starwars wiki handles non-canon and spoilers. It would be a bit of work to change, but not too much if lots of people work on it. One more point, it might be easier to convince those who are new here to write in past-tense than in present-tense (which seems like an uphill battle). Anyone else agree, or are us pro-past-tense people just in the minority here?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:13, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::As I've stated above, the "in-universe" conceit does not appeal to me at all. Present tense prose is more difficult to write than past tense, but I think the results are crisper and sound more professional. The process forces one to pay closer attention to their writing style.
::::::::As for your comment about convincing "those who are new here to write in past-tense", I find that notion troubling. This matter is such that there can only be one standard. The purpose of the Standards and Conventions process is (naturally) to create and promulgate a consistant style. If you wish to change the policy, discussion here is the place to effect it, not through unilateral action. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::You've misunderstood me, I was merely suggesting a change - one which I don't expect will happen, and I'm fine with that. My comment was that at the moment people are coming in and writing past-tense, and having to be told to write in present-tense as they have not read these standards. I was saying that one advantage of changing the standard to past-tense would be that they would probably not have to be told. I'm not about to tell people to go against the standard - that we have one standard is more important than what it is anyway.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 00:11, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::: I also think that present tense sounds more academic. As has been noted before (more than once), this style was initially adopted chiefly because that is the accepted academic style when writing about works of fiction. This is one of the ways in which we attempt to be encyclopedic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:55, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Ranks and Locations ==

Okay. So I was playing this [[:Template:Quote of the Day/09 29|this quote]] and I ran into an issue. In Civillian Speak, I'd call Apollo "''[[Galactica]]'''s [[CAG]], Captain [[Lee Adama]]", but I have an inkling that in Military Speak he'd be something like "[[CAG]] (''[[Galactica]]''), Cpt. [[Lee Adama]]" or whatever. You'd only use this when needing to differentiate him from, say, the [[CAG]] (''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''), but we might want to. Same goes for [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Laird]]. Does someone with a better grasp of military (specifically US Naval, if possible) conventions with respect to this have a suggestion on what kind of convention we should adopt? I'd love it if it didn't conflict with the current Quote of the Day episode convention (since ''Pesgasus'' is half of the ships this is likely to apply to), but we can always change the QotD thing, if we have to. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:04, 6 December 2005 (EST)

:I've tended to use the military abbreviation style as the Army used that I learned while a civilian employee.
::ADM, CDR, MAJ, COL, CPT, LT, LTJG, ENS
::CPO, SGT, PVT, SPC
::Deck Hand, Recruits have no specific abbreviation I can find.

:All caps, no spaces or punctuation. There should be plenty of Internet resources for this. And RDM has already noted the format he used, taking it mostly from the Original Series and his military experience. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:15, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: Enlightening (and I'm just glad someone replied to this at all), but somewhat tangental to my wonderment. I guess it was really about how we're supposed to specify where people are assigned when they have a specific role. In "Pegasus" Tigh and Fisk are both Colonels, but they're ''also'' both XOs, so for would we call one "COL Tigh (XO, ''Galactica'')" and the other "COL Fisk (XO, ''Pegasus'')"? Or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:49, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: They would be referred to as ''Galactica'' XO and ''Pegasus'' XO repectively. They're referred to by position first, not by name. Unit, Position, rank, name. [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 16:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So, I guess, with relation to the quotes, we don't really need to say where given characters are assigned... I don't know why I'd gotten that need into my head, really. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:59, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== Image Format ==

Mostly, the images I upload have been .jpg files. That's just what I tend to use on the web by default. However, because we scale our images a lot (i.e. all out thumbs), would it be more prudent to use .png formatting which, I hear, scales better? And, if that's so, should we make a note on this page about preferred image formatting (though, as long as it shows up alright, I don't see why we'd discriminate)? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:09, 23 December 2005 (EST)

:Most imprudent. PNG is far less efficient at compressing photographic images than JPEG. All image scaling is handled by the wiki software, and based on the original JPEG, so no significant generational degredation should exist.
:PNG has its own distinct uses, and is much better than JPEG at line art and schematics. I think this is commonly understood by most internet users, and I don't think that we need an explict policy on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 23 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Control Station ==
I was working on identifying and classifying unused images that have been uploaded, rather than deleting them outright (at Peter Farago's suggestion). While I started this with the intention of it being something I could handle myself, it has been suggested that it might merit a project or sub-project. I wanted to see if there was any consensus for a project that:

"would take over the Images section of Standards and Conventions (since that's not really where that shouold live, ultimately), and it would cross-coordinate with Characters. I'd want to call it something like Aft Image Control or Auxilliary Image Control... Or, failing those series-references, the Ministry of Images ([[User talk:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/#Project?|Day]])."

Potentially I would move [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|The Island of Misfit Images]] to a Project namespace with a more Galactica-themed title, but it would be a subpage/project of the Image Control Station (to avoid slamming bandwidth-challenged folks that might stumble across the Control Station). The actual control station would be more of a place that coordinate all the image related project pages (present and future).

So the main options I'm proposing are, a project page for Images in general with a subproject for misfit images, just a project/subproject for the misfit images (and we'll link to it from somewhere), or just leave it in Steelviper's user space. (Though I'm open to other ideas as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I'm, perhaps obviously, in favor of an entire images project. It could also consume Requested Images and have a section for images that we have, but might need bigger/less blurry/just better versions. I think, too, it should probably eat the "List of Characters Wanting Pictures" over at Characters, and have a link to it from there, instead. I mean... while we're doing all this, if we do. However, I think another few opinions are needed before diving off and making the page and doing all this moving and cross-linking, etc. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm in favor of moving Steelviper's Island of Misfit Images to the Battlestar Wiki namespace, under its current title. I'd like requested images to remain a separate page, although they should be cross-linked to each other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::: Why's that, Peter? Just for ease of finding for new users or so that all those images aren't on the requested page (we were thinking, or I was, that the Island would be a sub-page of whatever project it became part of) or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::It's no favor to my position that I can't articulate my point well, but I just don't feel that either image requests or image deletions would be a logical subcategory of the other. Better just to have Image Requests refer users to check the Island before making a request, and the Island refer users to Image Requests before deleting an image. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:47, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Hrm. I see your point, but I wasn't thinking that one would be, well, inside the other, for lack of a better phrase. I was more thinking of a hierarchy like this:

::::: '''Images Project'''
:::::* Requested Images
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** Locations
:::::** Equipment
:::::** etc.
:::::* Island of Misfit Images
:::::** As currently organized
:::::* Images needing improvement
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** etc.
:::::* Images to be deleted

::::: It's not precisely clear there, but they're all on the same level, I'd just put the Misfits on a page of their own to keep load times to a minimum. Maybe that's too ambitious, though? Anyway, now if you disagree, I at least am certain you know precisely what you're disagreeing with. I'm not sure I was entirely clear before. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:10, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::What goes on the hub then, besides links to the sub-pages? I do agree that an "images needing improvement" category or project would be good for when we ultimately want to upgrade from TV captures to DVD screenshots. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Any updates on this? So far the only action proposed (by somebody other than the guys trying to sell the "Control Station") is moving the island to the BW namespace. It's been around long enough that I'd be comfortable doing that if there is consensus that it belongs there. People might be more willing to hack and slash on it if it were out of my user area (even though people are already welcome to tear into it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:46, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:Please, go ahead with this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== Dates ==

Do we have a convention for dates? I am referring here to ''Earth'' dates; i.e., those pertaining to the production, such as brodcasts and DVD releases. I have seen at least these four: "Jan 20 2006", "January 20 2006", "20 January 2006", and "January 20th, 2006". Which is preferred? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:46, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:Note sure. Didn't know if it really mattered. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: Personally, I prefer "4 January 2006", but that's me. I think having the whole month out is goo, whichever order we decide on. Normal American convention is "January 4, 2006". So... that's my two cubits. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:13, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::I'm partial to the "4 January 2006" format, myself. M/D/Y is a crime against civilized mathematics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree too. Plus, the M/D/Y format may be more confusing to non-US readers. (For example the UK does D/M/Y)[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::For what it's worth, as I was going through all the eposide info boxes, I found the majority to be in "January 4 2006" style, so I attempted to unify to that format as I went along. I agree with the mathematical elegance of D/M/Y, however, and I dislike the comma and the ordinal number. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:34, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Yeah. Ordinals suck. I don't care whether we put the date before the month or after, as long as it's clear what each piece of data is. The only argument for using ##/##/#### is to ease the understanding of non-English-speaking people, but--if we want to do that, we need to make translations for the whole Wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:38, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Y-M-D, all numeric, is easily the nicest for sorting, so I'd say it's the one with "mathematical elegance" by virtue of its computer science elegance. That said, "10 March 2006" is the nicest for instant reading clarity and agrees with the output of <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Commas are a waste, and ordinals would be horrific.
:::::: Anyway, someone should actually put up a consensus if this counts as one; I don't mind going through and standardizing them some day relatively soon. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:53, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:So, have we decided what date format is to be used? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:58, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Battle pages ==

I realize that although I created the battle pages, I never clearly set out the format they should take. Basically, they try to imitate real world battle pages at Wikipedia as much as possible. Using this, I created battle boxes for the entire Lord of the Rings battles series, then just re-applied it here. I'm going to be revamping the boxes in the next few days (no info changes, just formatting changes, nudging, etc. little fixes). However, because they should try to follow real world battle, they should try to stick as closely as possible to these. Long story short, there are 3 basic categories that an "engagement" should fall into:

* A) Battle - large scale engagements
* B) Skirmish - small scale, but noteworthy, engagements
* C) On *''rare''* occasion, alternative names can be used. This largely consists of the "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]" which was less a battle a more of a slaughter. This was then re-applied to the "Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards" because it was part of the larger "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]". But this was really an exception, for reasons which I think are obvious. I mean, if ever the Galactica crew destroys the entire [[Cylon homeworld]] with a [Wikipedia:Christopher Blair|Temblor Bomb] in season 5 or so, we'd call it the "Fall of the Cylon Homeworld", but otherwise this term is reserved only for engagements resulting in massive damage. Another notable exception is the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]"; you see the Battle of the Philippine Sea is so commonly known as the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", and RDM said it was directly inspired by this, that I thought it fitting to alter the name to fit that (that, and it took place in an unspecified region of interstellar space, and Basetars don't often have names. I mean, if a Basetar named "''Truth and Reconiciliation''", this battle would be called "Battle of the ''Truth and Reconciliation''" or something. But the engagement in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" didn't have this. However, "[[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]]" ''did'' have a notable ship with a name in it, so it became "Battle of...etc".

Further ground rules to lay out are what actually deserves an article: officially, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]" is about the smallest engagement we're ever really going to make a page for. Generally, something deserves an article if:

*1) A Colonial ship is destroyed (Vipers, Raptors, etc). They can't easily be replaced, and the loss of even one can be considered a blow. (The upcoming engagements in "[[Scar]]" might be a skirmish instead of a battle, depends how many ships are involved at once).
*2) A massive number of Cylon vessels is destroyed, making the engagement a noteworthy event. For example, the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]" resulted in no Colonial losses ''whatsoever'', yet so many Cylons (hundreds of ships) were destroyed that it warrants it's own page.

An example of something that would ''not'' deserve it's own page is like when 2 Raiders were destroyed in "[[Final Cut]]", with no Colonial losses. No personnel or ships were lost, and the losses to the Cylons were insignificant in the extreme (considering that they still have production facilities and the Colonials do not).

As a rule of thumb, any engagement that involves a Battlestar or a Basestar firing it's own guns at the enemy is a "Battle" (Battle of the Coral Sea was a full scale battle, yet no enemy ships directly engaged each other; just fighters). However, if a Battlestar launches Vipers, but doesn't actually get involved in a small scale fight against enemy fightercraft, it's ''probably'' not a battle (case in point, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]".

Nextly, we have the matter of Commanders and Casualties. We don't know who the heck is commanding the Cylon Fleet or if there are "commanders" in the sense we think of aboard the Basestars. Thus they should be left as "unknown" (though if a Basestar is destroyed, you can assume the "commander" died, also if the entire Cylon force is wiped out). Mind you, if we ever see Number Six standing in a Basestar giving orders during a battle, if she actually gives orders she may be listed as a commander. Usually, a Commander is the highest ranking person present; don't bother to list Colonel Tigh if he never actually takes over command from Adama at any point. We should list "Admiral Cain AND Commander Adama" because Adama wasn't really serving "under" her at the time but by joint agreement, etc (complicated).

Casualties are easier now in Season 2; count how many people died in the episode who were *''not''* involved in the battle, then subtract that from next week's survivor count. For example, in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" two people died that weren't in the battle: Admiral Cain and an unnamed ''Pegasus'' Marine. Thus, when we see the survivor count in "[[Epiphanies]]", we should subtract 2 from it, and us that as "casualties" (I got the idea from "Battle of Kobol").

"[[Battle of Kobol]]" was on the whole a messy, drawn out affair as I think you will agree. We agreed that there's a cut off point where Centurion actions in "Home, Part I" no longer count as a battle or skirmish because it was so small scale (again, no Vipers were destroyed, etc).

As for "Numbers" we are keeping a running tally of ships, though "Cylon" numbers are a little tricky. I just go with "associated Raiders and Heavy Raiders" when a Basestar is involved, when no numbers are stated on screen.

As for forces, it's "Cylons" not "Cylon Alliance" (from TOS) because we have no idea what the political structure of the Cylons is. For every battle after the massive loss of 118 Battlestars in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, every other engagement after this is done by "Remnants of the Colonial Fleet".

I hope that sorts out stuff for now. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: That's ''awesome'', Ricimer. Now, before we put it up on the main S&C page, I think it needs some concising, though it will be key to not let it become less clear. I would suck at that job, so... please someone else volunteer. I'd also like to see the battle box become a template (as mentioned on your talk page), for ease of changing it if we need to and also for ease of CSS-ifying it so that it can change with themes, eventually. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::As noted on [[Talk:Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], I continue to prefer "Attack on" for situations where the target is named but the battleground is not. As for [[Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]], there is no reason why "Battle of" wouldn't encapsulate that idea accurately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Because it's doubtful if shots were even fired by the Colonials at Scorpion; it was a one-sided slaughter, but nonetheless deserved it's own page. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::That's a fair point. I continue to believe that "Battle of" is inappropriate when the field of battle has not been specified. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I'm sorry but this is the format that more or less works. "Battle" is a standard name. "Attack" sounds like a Doolittle Raid, as opposed to the MASSIVE engagement we just saw. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::::Your ''ex cathedra'' assertions on style are unbecoming. I am interested to hear the opinions of other users, particularly Joe, who named the page in the first place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::I fail to see what is rude about this: rather than simply editing pages as I saw fit, you ''told'' me to make a full write up of my view on the subject here, and then let consensus agree or disagree: you are chastising me, for doing as you requested? That said, not ''ex cathedrda'', but with ''plenitudo potestatis'' :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:54, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I went to Wikipedia hoping to find a definitive pattern to follow, but came up empty. [[Wikipedia:Battle#Battle naming|Naming Battles]] Apparently the british had a whole committee for this purpose ("British Battles Nomenclature Committee"). While almost all of the battles listed in Wikipedia follow the "Battle of" convention, they are always followed by a geographic reference (which we're not really going to have in this case). If we're going to name it after the resurrection ship, we might consider the outcome as well. Rather than just calling it the "Attack of", we might consider the fact that the result was its destruction. In Star Fleet Battles there was a scenario called "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" that always stuck in my mind (a Klingon ship attacks a greatly disadvantaged ''Hood'', usually resulting in its destruction). I guess that would be similar to "Fall of the Twelve Colonies." ("Destruction of the Resurrection Ship"?) Although that would certainly spoil the ending if someone hadn't seen the episode. Sorry not to be able to take a decisive stand, but hopefully some more people will weigh in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Good info there. Well, If it was them ''surprising the Resurrection Ship alone'', I would go with "Destruction", but instead it was an all-out battle to destroy it, case in point it's the only ever engagement between ''multiple'' Basestars and ''multiple'' Battlestars. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::That's a good point. With all this focus on the Resurrection ship, I lost sight of the fact that it was essentially a non-combatant. It was the strategic objective, but the actual firepower lay in the basestars and the raiders. I guess naming would have been a lot simpler if they gave us a goofy sector name like the TOS would often do (Hatari sector, etc) to use as a geographic landmark. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I still think "Attack on the Resurrection Ship" is descriptive, succinct, and has a good ring. The fact that the actual combat didn't involve it is incidental - the Resurrection ship was the primary target, and it certainly ''was'' attacked. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 21 January 2006 (EST)\
:::"Battle of the Resurrection Ship" is just as descriptive and succinct when you think about it, and I personally believe that it has a bad ring. Funny thing was, remember when they were doing that recon mission near a moon? (orange one that they flew by in Res Ship Part I), I had hoped that would provide a location (like the Red Moon with Starbuck, etc) however, the actual battle did not take place near there at all. Of course, what WOULD we have called it? Old ''Red Dwarf'' joke about that. It's a "bluey-green planetoid"...they're ALL bluish-green planetoids! (no names, etc). At any rate, it wasn't just attacking that ship; it was a full scale battle between the Basestars and Battlestars. That said, Galactica vs. Pegasus should be deleted, because I intend on merging any relevant information into a short paragraph for "Battle of the Resurrection Ship"; I'm just busy and can't do a full write-up yet. Monday.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:32, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::My sentiment is that "Battle of ~" should be used with the location or nucleus of a battle. I agree with previous comments that the Resurrection Ship was effectively a stationary set piece around which the battle was waged. That it was destroyed does not disqualify it from functioning as a virtual location. The time and place of the battle were directly related to the presence of the Res Ship, so I believe it functcions as a location for our purposes. Insofar as that translates to S&C, shall we say "Battle of ~" necessitates a location, but that locations can include noncombatant targets? (Even if they possess mobility.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 22:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::On the matter of survivors, we absolutely should not assume that every off-screen casualty that happens between episodes in which a battle takes place was caused by said battle, although it certainly provides an upper limit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Oh, I just meant "follow the pattern we already established with "[[Battle of Kobol]]", that is, say in the casualty box "XX number at most; survivor count decressed by YY, but ZZ number were scene to not die because of the battle" etc. (well, shorter than that). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:28, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ages ==

As has come up [[Talk:Saul Tigh#Age|elsewhere]], I'd like to get the age thing going here. I think, by and large, ages should not be included. In the case of Saul Tigh (and any others who meet these criteria after), I think we should include it. Here's my plan: The numbers ''must'' be a link to a note at the bottom citing the source of the information. If that means including a bunch of math at the bottom, so be it. If it gets too big and complex, then we can move it to, say, "Saul Tigh/Age" or whatever. This way, the information is as transparent as we can make it, without muddying up the template with justifications right there. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:FYI, footnotes do not appear to work inside the character data template. I'm not sure why. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ship gender ==

Which pronouns shall we use for ships? I believe the normal convention is for friendly (for our purposes, colonial) vessels to be referred to as female, and enemy (Cylon) craft as male. IIRC this is consistent with Galactica-Boomer's terminology for the captured raider. (Thus, enemy craft repurposed to the colonials retain their masculine identity.) I would suggest that gender-neutral pronouns for ships should be avoided when possible, if only as a matter of taste. Thoughts? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:16, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I believe the current convention is the female for all ships ([[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Ships]]). I've not heard of using male for enemy ships. I do agree that gender neutrality ought to be avoided, if only to make it easier to translate into Spanish (I'm not very familiar with gender neutrality in that language, other than generally defaulting to masculine). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I've never heard of enemy ships being referred to in the masculine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I must have hallucinated it, then. Very well, feminine it is. (Boy do I feel silly for missing the item in Standards and Conventions. I did a search on "gender" but somehow glossed over the big ol' heading.) Thanks for the input. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:17, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but I think it makes sense to leave pronouns neutral when referring to ships in a general sense or on a class basis ("If it is armed, the Blackbird likely fires the same ammunition…") and make them feminine when referring to a ship by name (''Laura'' quickly proves her worth…). Kosher? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Sounds right. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:50, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Most navies refer to their vessels in the feminine. I do know that the Russian Navy does refer to its vessels in the masculine.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Ah! That must be where I got tangled up. I bet I read a cold war spy novel a decade ago and misremembered the convention. Thanks, Ricimer. Now... can anyone confirm that Galactica-Boomer called the captured Raider a he? If so, should all Autonomous Raiders be masculine? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 04:22, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== XHTML Compliance ==

So. We all (should) know that and are ''Bad''. However, it's (apparently) less common knowledge that all is bad as well. For the [http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ DOCTYPE] of this website, it should be . All tags must be closed in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional Doctype. I've also learned that <s> is ''equally'' bad for XHTML Documents. Apparently, the tag to be using is <del>. Just thought I'd put this up here and see if anyone had any thoughts before moving it to the S&C page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:08, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:This would be particularly relevant if we were using a strict doctype, which, god-willing, will never happen. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:11, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:: Well, yes, I think it would be a bad idea to expect all Wiki contributers to know how to follow strict and to take the time to do it (we use tables for a lot of our formatting stuff), but While we have the Transitional Doctype, I think we should try to do at least that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:33, 24 January 2006 (EST)

==Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"==

I propose that we replace the term "[[Humano-Cylon]]" with "[[humanoid Cylon]]". The term didn't really expand much outside of BattlestarWiki; I've heard Humalon, BioCylon, Cylon Agents, etc. and other frequent combinations out there. That's not why I want to change it though. In light of the fact that there will soon be a Human/Cylon Hybrid on the show, and I've put a lot of thought into this over several days, and I can only come to the conclusion that leaving the terms as they are will lead to dreadful confusion unless changed. I mean, they were called "Humano-Cylons", "Humalons" because they're Cylons that are "like" Humans, but now we're going to have a Hybrid that is a genuine cross between the two on a cellular, nay, molecular level. I know it will take a lot of work (I'm willing to do it), but I think we should phase out "Humano-Cylon" because it was never canonical, and will be all too readily confused with the hybrid. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)
:I agree that Humano-Cylon should go. The term initially struck me as clumsy, though I didn't question it because it was so widespread in the Wiki. I wonder if we could get by with plain old "Cylon" when the context is clearly RDM; Centurions, after all, are usually called out as such. Within the world of the show, the usual term seems to be Cylon. I also feel we should avoid adopting other contrived portmanteaux (Humalon et al.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)
::That is a good point, and a surprisingly elegant solution. I approve. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:54, 24 January 2006 (EST)

On top of this, I think it's time that we created a page for the [[Cylon-Human Hybrid]]; info is gathering and Sharon's daughter is going to be a pivotal character eventually (consquently, I've heard that the later episode of Stargate SG-1 season 9 will focus on Vala Mal Doran (Claudia Black) returning with a "miracle pregnancy", unfortunately her daughter turns out to be the physical manifestation of the bad guys, the Ori, and she will be sort of the bad guys "messiah" figure in their 10th season. It makes you think...). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

And while I'm on the subject, I think that she should make separate character pages for Cylon "copies" that develop individual traits over time. For example, we should keep a main "Sharon Valerii" page, with stubs for the main articles for "Galactica-Sharon" and "Pegasus-Sharon". Also, Gina should probably have her own page separate from the main Number Six article, as she's differentiated into a separate character.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I also agree we should split the Cylon copies. Perhaps (using your example) the "Sharon Valerii" page might well be nothing more than a disambiguation, and contributers would be encouraged to link directly to "Sharon Valerii (Galactica)" or "Sharon Valerii (Caprica)". Migrating all the links would be a substantial project, but one I feel is worth taking, and sooner the better. As for naming convention - it might not work every time, but perhaps the location where that copy is first introduced? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::This is long, so forgive me, but there are important issues that change our nature that I cannot agree to.

::Let's deal with the terminology change first. I had my qualms about "humano-Cylon" when I first saw it, but it is an efficient term to differentiate these beings from robotic Cylons here, especially given that the show has not really furnished a unique term. "Cylon Agent" is the closest that the show has used, with "human models" and "Cylon humans" after that. ''Battlestar Wiki'' has many articles that use descriptive terms as placeholders in lieu of a canonical name: "[[Presidential security service]]", "[[Identification Tags]]", and "[[Colonial wireless alphabet]]" are other examples. "Cylon agent" can be used as a placeholder redirect if one is tired of typing it, but we need more reason than "we don't like the term" to change "Humano-Cylon" now, as it appears on many, ''many'' articles here. And frankly, it's grown large enough that purging it will be very difficult. Our naming conventions are here for a reason, so making exceptions for the Sharon Valeriis diminishes our effectiveness as an encyclopedia, which MUST NOT be ambiguous, strive to keep to the basic definition and not wallow about in subdefinitions as an unnecessary article into itself--which is what you are proposing. "Humano-Cylon" is ''very'' popular here, and what goes on in the "outside world" doesn't really matter in the context of maintaining this wiki, so long as others can use their own terms and we provide appropriate redirects to our article as appropriate. I understand the spirit of what you're suggesting, but we lack a sufficient "why", in my opinion. Although I see a good reasoning between what are "Cylons" in RDM and what are "robot Cylons" that can withstand further debate, I think we should adjust the wiki as the characters do: when the characters begin to see the Cylons with human traits and not a machine to be shut down, our data here should reflect it. Otherwise, differentiating them to any large degree would be like writing bios on the "Borg" drones from "Star Trek." No point, as they are all generally the same.

::Two: Sharon's baby has '''not been born yet'''. Do ''not'' assume it will come to term. Imagine the holy hell that the Cylons will unleash if they learn that it ''doesn't''. Imagine the political hell in the Fleet if it ''does''. Either way works well for the writers, so we can't make the assumption. Ron Moore has promised some radical changes for the Fleet at the end of this season, and much of this could involve that child to be. Once we know for certain that this hybrid is born and is even given a name, then a page is quite appropriate and necessary. But until then, creating an article for this or any other hybrids or proposed character to-be goes against our sourcing policies (it's speculation until shown in an episode) and is premature (no pun intended).

::Three: To differentiate between the Valerii's and other Cylon agents is asking for trouble at present. They are identical in creation and mission; if they begin to vary on that mission, a subarticle is written. The [[Number Six]] article shows at least three variations and it appears to work well. Now, a number of articles are becoming long, true. But, as a wiki, we haven't created a policy yet as to how to break up or concise such data as it relates to these character bios. We ''have'' worked out a process for the [[Cylons (RDM)]] and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article series, which could be adopted for the characters with some thought. Changes that are more POV or assumptive like these, and less in form to the wiki's overall format or mission are detrimental, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::I don't think the show has yet provided a canonical term to distinguish the "human models" from the more mechanical models. I think "Cylon Agent" would be a good placeholder/redirect, but that's based on the writing on a folder and not consistent adoption within the show. One thing that hasn't been established well (at least in my mind) is WHO the Cylons are. Are the humanoid-cylons the new, REAL cylons (with centurions, raiders, etc. serving their interests)? Or are all models part of a true "Cylon collective" (resistance is futile) where everybody is considered equally "Cylon". If the humano-Cylons prove to be the "real" Cylons, then I would see them taking more of a prominent role at Cylons (RDM). Until then, I think that any term we use is just serving as a placeholder.

:::Even if Sharon's offspring (I'm not sure if baby is the right word) comes to term and is born, I'm not sure that Cylon-human hybrids deserve an article of their own. Peanut butter gets an article, and jelly gets an article. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even get an article (being a distinct, important, and common combination of the other two). However, just because somebody once made a peanut butter and tuna sandwich doesn't mean that it necesarily would merit an article. The offspring would DEFINITELY merit its own article, but until proven otherwise would be a unique proof-of-concept. All information about her would represent the totality of what we know about the hybrids, until such time that more hybrids come into being. (That is if she even comes into being. Adama may yet "drown the baby in the pond.") --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::A note on the offspring: perhaps it would be fun to create a short, amusing-but-still-relevant biography page for the fetus ("prebiography"?), noting its (can we say "her" because Sharon said so?) unique physiological properties, Baltar and Six's fascination with her, political ramifications of her delivery or lack thereof. A nod, if you will, to the "life begins at conception" faithful. I realize such a page could easily become political, insulting, or trivial, but I think it's worth a shot. Treating the subject like a regular character bio affords plenty of oppurtunity for ironic humor as well, as with the [[Toaster]] article. Yeah? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:39, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::The Cylon-Human Hybrid article cannot be created until after the episode in which it is born. It is BattlestarWiki's firm policy to categorically deny the "life begins at conception" viewpoint and instead support the life at birth viewpoint. An embryo which is little more than a clump of cells, the potential for life, yes, but not life. Regardless, following the tenets [[Naturalistic science fiction]], BSG supports "realistic" ''science'', as opposed to "opinions". Creating the article ''before'' the child is born would undermine ''BattlestarWiki's'' established stance against "life begins at conception", and creating it before the birth would be like holding up a big sign saying "we support Life-At-Conception". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I hope I'm not stepping into a political debate here, because that is not my aim at all. But can you provide support for your claim that BattlestarWiki has a firm policy on this topic? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 15:00, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::''Battlestar Wiki'' has no policy on the matter of the status of a fetus, Ricimer. This is a ''non-sequitur'' that actually worsened your position, not reinforced it. In short: Don't make stuff up. Everyone here can see and (and in most cases, edit) all policies. That said, jumping down to new thread and clarification... --15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::No, no, sorry; I was being really sarcastic. Sorry, I thought everyone could tell. Well, if not, "that life at conception is a policy thing I just wrote was just a sarcastic joke". I appologize for the inconvenience. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:06, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::As for the Valerii problem... I think that's going to be a tricky issue. "Caprica" Valerii does seem to behave distinctly differently from "Galactica" Valerii, and both of those differently than the other "Caprica"/command Valerii. I'm not sure it has been definitively proven whether they are unique individuals, or whether they are just playing different roles based on what the mission calls for. Personally I like the current grouping by "model", though I might more seriously rethink if their individuality/uniqueness is eventually proven. I think "Downloaded" would be pretty decisive (if it hasn't been canceled as rumored).

:::Feel free to copy my sig to any of these if you need to repond to an individual issue. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

A few points to clarify:

'''One''': I didn't suggest this simply because I "don't like" the term "Humano-Cylon". I was actually okay with the continued use of it, until the Hybrids came along. The ''*ENTIRE*'' reason I have raised this issue of changing the name is officially "'''I think it will get confused with the Cylon-Human Hybrid'''". Just wanted to clarify that.

'''Two''': I did not expect the pages to be changed immediately, and I understand that Caprica-Sharon's daughter hasn't been born yet: The reason I ''put foward'' the issue now, is so that we could have a lenghty amount of time to debate the issue and set up parameters and rules for this change here, in advance, so there will be less confusion later. Never too early to debate. I wanted to get the ball rolling.

'''Three''': Regardling the popularity and practical removal of "Humano-Cylon": How do we know it was ever "very popular"? I only used it because it was the term that this wiki was already using when I got here. Curious, can we have a show of votes here of who actually "likes" the term enough to keep it? (largely irrelevant, sorry, I'm just saying; How can we quantify it as "popular", when in the earliest days ("In the Long-Long Ago"...) BattlestarWiki used that name and redirected all future references to these begins to that page. ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc''.

What I meant by stating that it's "not used much outsite of BattlestarWiki" is that I mean it isn't based on anything outside of this wiki, ***so we can feel free to change it without being fettered by external constraints. I mean that changing it will not contradict other material out there.

As for "practical removal", recently we gutted this entire wiki updating "Commander Adama" to "William Adama" following his promotion to Admiral. If such as pervasive name as Commander Adama can be replaced and revised, surely there will be not so great difficulty in replacing "Humano-Cylon" with "humanoid Cylon", etc. (That's my personal choice, but any other name that ''doesn't'' sound like "Humalon" or something (the Hybrid confusion, etc) would be okay after a vote).

'''Four''': The separation of Cylon copies with distinct personalities into different character pages. I was willing to ignore this through season 1, but after hearing about "Downloaded" I realized that we'd have ''two'' copies of Sharon, each distinct from both the other standard Sharon-copies AND each other, on the show. And the more I thought about it, the more I think they have finally reached the point where they need to be considered separate major characters with their own pages. ***Again, we can do this after "Downloaded" airs, I just wanted to get discussion started now, so we know what to do ahead of time. Yes, I did PLAY AROUND with creating separate pages for both two days ago (after which made the request here in standards and practices), but at the time I wanted to raise interest in the issue and experiment with how this would work.

Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:To Spencerian's points on terminology: (1) The lack of a solid canonical term is a valid argument for keeping the old term ''only until a new term is agreed upon''. Clearly we do not wish to frivolously or rashly change the Wiki; hence this discussion. (2) The difficulty of the task is not a disqualifier, as Ricimer has stepped forward to take it on, and I'm certain others of our cadre will pitch in. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could not a search-and-replace bot easily change such a unique term as "Humano-Cylon"? (3) I don't see how this represents an exception for Sharon Valerii. I believe we're talking about replacing the term globally. Can you elaborate on this point? (4) If you are waiting for the characters to realize cylons are not merely machines to be shut down, I assume you are referring to the mainstream colonial opinion. There are plenty of characters (Helo, Baltar, all of the Cylons, and [[Demand Peace]], who give them a bit more credit. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:57, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Thanks for the clariification. On the work front, of course, the changing of the terms throughout isn't an impossible undertaking, but note that once a term is in use, it's hard to stop. In the case of the Cylons of RDM, an article is already there. To make the changes, we have to go all the way for all pages or not at all to ensure that referencing info, as well as the info itself, remains consistent. Ricimer's point #4, which I've suggested on the Valerii page, using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/parent page where subarticles for supporting characters that have appeared should keep article sizes down while organizing data well. I'm all for this idea the more I think of it. "Sharon Valerii" is like a class of ship (all generally the same), but each ship has a characteristic identity (Boomer, Caprica-Valerii), thus the parent page and subarticles for all major players. Sorry if I confused you on my thoughts on this.

::The Cylons, be they truly biological and not to be treated as machine, are still the central adversary of the Colonials. While the characters can make their judgements on what they see the Cylons to be, we as wikipedians just report what we see, ultimately--we don't make the "news". In other words, if Adama (who runs the Fleet) sees the Cylons as a threat, they still have to be reported here in that light. Helo and others may have differing opinions, which should also be added. We must spin interpretation very cautiously and not to interpret it as fact. With that, I'm in favor of "Cylon agent" (the most commonly used term in the show, IMO) for a H-O replacement, but still, "Cylons (no suffix)" may also have merit. Current aliases are still OK, but the convention would be for that. I also suggest that we form parent/child pages for each of the Cylons (see, I'm doing it already now that I understand the subtle point) to avoid confusion and oversized articles. This also prevents issues with over hyphenations: Picon-Valerii, Tauron-Valerii, Cheese Whiz-Valerii..you get the idea. And when/if the baby is born, she gets her own page as she will be quite unique (I hope). To keep from this thread going crazy again, let's go for support/oppose tags at your replies from here, with your suggestions on how or what to do with terms and page design. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Proposal===
There will be no special term for the human models. All references to Cylons in the Re-imagined series will be taken to refer to the humans, unless prefaced with "Centurion" or other relevant distinguisher. This is in line with the show's own usage, and avoids creating a non-canon term.

The article [[Humano-Cylon]] will be deleted. Its content will be merged into [[Cylon Models]], the individual overview pages for each cylon model, and a new page on potential cylon agents, with the previously discussed "whitelist" and "graylist" sections, as relevant.

Links to Humano-Cylon will be redirected to the [[Cylons (RDM)]] article cover-page (which will be spruced up, but probably remain fairly spare), or to various subsections, as appropriate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Counter-Proposal===
The human-appearing models of Cylon are indeed distinct enough that they deserve a special term. All references to Cylons in the re-imagined series don't necessarily refer to the humanoid models (we have no idea how these things are deployed, and in context, whe Lt. Gaeta shouts "Cylons incoming!" he's not talking about humanoid Cylons floating in space). Plent of times on the show they have made a distinction between the "mechanical variety" and "the human variety", so the "Proposal" would not, in fact, be "in line" with the show's own usage.

The article "[[Humano-Cylon]]" will remain entirely intact, but have its ''name'' changed to something else (my suggestiong would be "humanoid Cylons", but someone else might be able to come up with a better name and some ideas were tossed around above, etc). The contents of "Humano-Cylons" will not be merged. The ''already existing'' overview Character pages for the humanoid Cylon models will remain intact as they are now. There will be no new page for potential humanoid Cylons; it will remain a sub-section of the article dealing with the humanoid Cylons (as it is now). If by "whitelist" and "graylist" it is meant "people we suspect of being humanoid Cylons" and "people who it has been proven could not possibly be humanoid Cylons", such sub-headings will be added into the list of suspected Cylon Agents on "Humanoid Cylons".

Links to "Humano-Cylon" will be redirected to the new term ("Humanoid Cylon", for example, pending consensus on name). Humanoid Cylons models that have developed distinct personalities that have made them unique Characters on the show will be separated into having their own Character pages, while a stubb about these individual copies will be made in the article dealing with that particular "model" (as well as a link). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:38, 25 January 2006 (EST)

===Discussion of Proposals===
I think we may be trying to decide too many things at once. I think it would be much easier to make this decision in a couple of steps:

: A. Move all discussion of creating copy-specific pages on specific models to [[Talk:Sharon Valerii#Keeping Track of the Valeriis]], just so it doesn't get so confusing here. Really, that's the only character we're considering doing this to and once we make a decision on her, we can make that a policy without much discussion here.

: B. Do we want to change the term?

: C. What do we want to change it to?

: D. What does that entail?/Plan of Action/Enact PoA.

Now, I would not be opposed to changing the term. I agree it could be a bit confusing when/if Sharon delivers us a little halfling. One thing that's not been brought up when speaking of work load is the fact that not all references to Humano-cylons are links. So they'll be harder to track down than, say, all occurances of "Thrace, Kara". So, there'll be a lot of hand-searching, if you take my meaning, to be done. That being said, I don't think that's a reason not to change, really. What we ''do'' here is edit stuff.

On the point of C (really we could do my steps B and C together, without ''too'' much confusion), I support the change to simply Cylon. In a vast majority of cases context will make it readily apparent whether we're talking about Simon or a raider. In the few cases where we'll have to be more specific, then I think we could use "humanoid Cylon" or a "human-type Cylon" or "a Cylon of the human variety" (if you're not into the whole "brevity" thing) or any number of other circumlocutions that need not be standardized. As for changing the article name, we could make it "Cylon (human type)". I think it should continue to be an independant article because raiders and basestars have articles of their own... We just don't know what to call it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:What about putting it on the front page of [[Cylons (RDM)]]? We could list capsule descriptions of the known models there, just like The Twelve Colonies lists the individual colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:21, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:For me, part of the elegance of using the simple term "Cylon" is that it doesn't limit itself to the human-looking ones, but that context will take care of that for us nearly every time. Clearly, "cylons approaching" does not mean space-walking humanoids. But neither does "Tigh is a Cylon" imply Tigh may be a centurion, or a Basestar. Let's give folks some credit. Also, I must have been confused - I didn't realize we were only discussing branching the pages for Sharon. I think at the very least, Baltar's-Psychosis-Six and Gina have different enough agenda to merit different pages. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:: I may have mis-understood the issue of splitting, then, but I think it's different from adopting a replacement for "Humano-cylon", so I'd rather talk about it in another place, even if it's just further down on this page. As there's another place already in use, why not consolidate discussion to that place? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:23, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''Dicussion moved from [[Talk:Main Page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

Hello, I'm new and my edits have so far been of the proofreading type (that's what I'm good at), and I've noticed a particular area of inconsistency in commas/periods and quotation marks. Since it has been decided that we shall prefer American spellings, perhaps we should also use American punctuation style, which places commas and periods inside quotation marks. I have seen them this way a few places, but I've mostly seen the British style used, which places commas and periods outside the quotation marks. I don't care either way, but I think consistency is good so there should be a guideline one way or the other. [[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 08:40, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: IMO British style is much, much easier, both to write and to read. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:43, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Then perhaps we should declare "British style" the rule so that those of us who fret over punctuation can change the non-British occurrences to match.[[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 10:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::Welcome to the wiki, Bunchofpants. You've noted a significant inconsistancy we do, and I'm a bit guilty as well. Punctuation ''should'' (based on my experience) be within quotations (such as, "Kara, you're just crazy."). But, when dealing with episode references in parentheses, our convention is to place the punctuation after the episode reference, outside of the quotes. (Tyrol says "Put the gun down" ([[Fragged]]).) This convention, I think, is fine. However, in sentences without episode references, the punctuation should be inside. I'll need to check our policies, where, if we don't make up our own policy, we tend to stick with Wikipedia policy. Another administrator may also have an opinion to this. So that others can chime in, we should move this discussion to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

This is, I think, probably because we're on the internet. Apparently, I think according to the hacker slang dictionary which I don't have time to find a link to, it is very, very common amongst prolific internet users to use the British style, not because we're all Anglophiles, but because we tend to have a large cross section with the computer science community. Basically, if the period is not part of the quote, you don't put it so that the reader can tell ''exactly'' what goes in the quotes. Especially in help menus for *NIX systems, that use it so that you know the command is "hup" or whatever, rather than "hup." which would be wrong if "hup" were the actual command. Anyway... I like this system. The end. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:27, 5 February 2006 (EST) (Post Script: Let's allow a few days for discussion. Maybe move this to S&C? ''I HATE EDIT CONFLICTS'')

== After Questions...now Analysis? ==

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

: Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:: At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)
::I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Language in the Twelve Colonies

2006-03-17T00:28:00Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

{{Twelve Colonies Series}}
English, or some language that is universally translated into it (à la [[Wikipedia:Westron|Tolkien]]) is standard. Loanwords from foreign languages ("fascist", "karma", "esprit de corps" etc.) occur with normal frequency, as do chronologically enigmatic borrowings such as the [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Columbia]]''. Most religious terms are explicitly shared with ancient greek beliefs (either antecedent to or descendent from them).

==Vocabulary==

===Anachronisms===
[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] uses many terms from modern day naval aviation, which appear somewhat anachronistic but also lend the show a flavor of realistic jargon. These include:
*[[Combat Air Patrol]]
*[[Commander Air Group]]
*Planes
:'''Adama:''' You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly. ([[Litmus]])

===Ersatz===
In contrast to its [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|predecessor]], the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' employs relatively little in the way of ersatz vocabulary. It does employ a few terms outside of a normal american english vocabulary, mostly military jargon. These are mixed in haphazardly with the real-life naval aviation terms above.

*[[Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Constellation]] - [[Wikipedia:NATO phonetic alphabet|Charlie]] (As used in the sense of radio alphabetic code, e.g.: "Alpha, Bravo, Constellation".)
*[[Dradis]] - [[Wikipedia:RADAR|Radar]]
*[[Fumarella leaf]] - [[Wikipedia:Tobacco|Tobacco]]
*[[Frak]] - A bowdlerized version of "Fuck" (c.f. "[[Wikipedia:Frell|Frell]]" (Farscape), "[[Wikipedia:Frag|Frag]]" (Babylon 5), "[[Wikipedia:Smeg|Smeg]]" (Red Dwarf))
*[[G-4]] - [[Wikipedia: C-4 (explosive)|C-4]]
*[[Krypter]] - [[Wikipedia:Mayday|Mayday]]
*[[Morpha]] - [[Wikipedia:Morphine|Morphine]]
*[[Serisone]] - [[Wikipedia:prednisone|Prednisone]]
*[[Wireless]] - [[Wikipedia:Radio|Radio]]{{ref|wireless}}

===Invented Terminology===
As all science fiction shows must, Battlestar Galactica has a set of vocabulary referring to technologies and other items not shared with the real world.

*[[Ambrosia]] - a bright green alcoholic beverage
*[[Carom]] - the angle above or below the XY plane of a vessel, perpendicular to [[Wikipedia:Bearing (navigation)|bearing]] (c.f. "Mark" (Star Trek))
*[[Chamalla]] - an [[Wikipedia:Entheogen|entheogen]] used by priests
*[[Red Line]]

===Enigmas===

Language in ''Battlestar Galactica'' have terms whose origins are a curiosity due to chronology or uniqueness to the real-world Earth that likely wouldn't have a parallel of the same name in the Twelve Colonies. See [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Pre-History|an interpretation of the origin of humanity on Kobol]] that could support the derivation of these terms.

* ''[[Columbia]]'': This battlestar name's origin is strange since its popular Earth derivation comes from Christopher Columbus, a man unlikely to have existed in the Twelve Colonies.

===Honorifics===
Although civilians use the honorific "Madam" or it's shortened form "ma'am", in the Colonial military all superior officers are referred to as "Sir", regardless of gender. According to RDM's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs blog] on January 20th, 2006, the series follows the system established in "[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan|Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]]", where the term "sir" has become gender-neutral in military usage. Thus, [[Laura Roslin]] is refered to as "Madam President" or "ma'am" in a civilian context, but in her capacity as Commander-in-Chief, she is always addressed as "sir".

===Names===
Many characters have names that include one or more components that appear to be a Biblical or Classical reference. It remains an enigma whether, and to what degree, these should be thought of as translations for the audience's benefit.

Some of these apparent allusions may have no intended meaning beyond sounding good. Others are known to have been chosen for a reason, and that's noted where verifiable.

* [[William Adama|William]] and [[Lee Adama]]: "Adama" is Hebrew for "earth" in its literal meaning—ground, dirt—from which "Adam", the Biblical First Man, derives his name. It is also the name of a large city in Ethiopia. Lee's callsign "Apollo" is of course a reference to the Greek (and apparently, Kobolan) god. Both "Adama" and "Apollo" are carry-overs from the original series, where they were chosen for their mythological significance.
* [[Saul Tigh]]: "[[Wikipedia:Saul|Saul]]" is a Hebrew name, which means "borrowed". Biblical references include both the first king of Judah and Israel, and the birth-name of Paul of Tarsus. "Tigh" appears to have been made up by [[Glen A. Larson]]. Originally the character was named "Paul Tigh", but when it was discovered that this could not be used for legal reasons, it was shifted to "''S''aul Tigh", a reverse of the name switch that Saul of Tarsus/St. Paul made.
* [[Richard Adar]]: "[[Wikipedia:Adar|Adar]]" is a month in the Jewish lunar calendar still in use today. It coincides roughly with the Gregorian month of March. It is a carry over from the original series.
* [[Kara Thrace]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]]" was a Greek city.
* [[Galen Tyrol]]: "[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]]" was a famous Greek healer, the source of much Mediaeval medical knowledge (and misinformation). "[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]]" is a region that spans the border of Austria and Italy.
* [[Gaius Baltar]]: "Gaius" was the ''[[Wikipedia:praenomen|praenomen]]'' of the man we commonly call [[Wikipedia:Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]]. "Baltar" was made up by [[Glen A. Larson]] for the original series.
* [[Sharon Valerii]]: "Sharon" is Hebrew for forest, although it's also a common English woman's name. The [[Wikipedia:Valerius|gens Valeria]] is one of the longest-running families in the history of the [[Wikipedia:Roman Empire|Roman Empire]]. Curiously, "valerii" is the masculine plural form.
* [[Karl Agathon]]: "[[Wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]]" was an Athenian poet, a friend of Eurpides and Plato.
* [[Hera]]/Isis: "[[Wikipedia:Hera|Hera]]" was a Greek goddess, the wife of Zeus. "[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]" an Egyptian goddess, the wife of Horus in early mythology; the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus later. This is one of the few Egyptian references in the new series.
* [[Helena Cain]]: "[[Wikipedia:Helena|Helena]]" is a common enough name, but is also a possible reference to Helen of Troy. "[[Wikipedia:Cain|Cain]]" in the Old Testament is the first murderer, and is a carry-over from the original series.
* [[Aaron Doral]]: "[[Wikipedia:Aaron|Aaron]]" is a Biblical Hebrew name, the older brother of [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]].
* [[Anastasia Dualla]]: The Greek word ''[[Wikipedia:anastasia|anastasia]]'' translates to "resurrection", and was a deliberate choice by [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]]. It's also not an uncommon Greek and Russian name. Dualla is the name of a region and people in sub-saharan Africa.
* [[Tom Zarek]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thomas|Thomas]]" is a deliberate biblical reference, after the doubting apostle, although strictly speaking that apostle's name was Jude the Twin, "Tau'ma" being Aramaic for "twin". It's also a common English name. "Zarek" appears to be made up.

Uncertain references:
* [[Leoben Conoy]]: "[[Wikipedia:Leoben|Leoben]]" is an Austrian town where a preliminary peace in the Napoleonic wars was signed. "[[Wikipedia:Conoy|Conoy]]" is a Native American tribe, also known as the Piscataway. Both are pretty obscure.
* [[Laura Roslin]]: "[[Wikipedia:Roslin Institute|Roslin Institute]]" is where Dolly the Sheep was cloned. Roslin is a town in Scotland.
* [[Billy Keikeya]]: "Keikeya" appears to be made up.

==Accents==

Most characters speak with a [[Wikipedia:General American|Standard American]] accent, with some exceptions.

===English Accent===
Two characters speak with the [[Wikipedia:Received Pronunciation|Received Pronunciation]], Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] of Caprica and ship's medic [[Layne Ishay]]. Other characters from Caprica do not share this accent.

===Canadian Accent===
Occassionally when Col. [[Saul Tigh]] is shouting or barking out orders, he exhibits a faint canadian accent. [[Michael Hogan]] is a noted Canadian actor, and on the show his speech is usually indistinguishable from Standard American English, but observant fans can occassionally detect a trace of an accent.

===Spanish Accent===
[[Giana]], a woman rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], spoke with a Spanish accent, and inquired after the whereabouts of her husband, who she stated was "stationed on Gemenon". Her place of origin is unclear, but no other characters from either Caprica, [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], or anywhere else have shared this accent. The actress, Lymari Nadal, is from Puerto Rico.

===Aerelon Accent===
In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", Baltar noted that Sharon Valerii spoke with a trace of an [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] accent. The actress who portrays her, Grace Park, is fluent in both English and Korean, but speaks Standard American English without a foreign accent.

===Kiwi Accent===
The reporter [[D'anna Biers]] speaks with a Kiwi/New Zealand accent (this is actually the accent that actress [[Lucy Lawless]] speaks with when off screen, because she is from New Zealand). However, the same episode revealed that D'anna is actually a [[Cylon agent]], and another copy of D'anna on Cylon-occupied Caprica does ''not'' speak with this accent, but a Standard American one. This seems to imply that D'anna's entire personality was for show, and that the Cylons seem to use more standardized pronunciation when amongst themselves ([[Final Cut]]; this subtle hint made by ''not'' using her Kiwi accent is also mentioned in David Eick's video blog). However, in her subsequent appearance in "[[Downloaded]]", D'anna/Number Three continues to speak with a Kiwi accent on Caprica (probably because Lawless wanted to keep using her normal Kiwi accent, after her character was turned into a recurring role).

==Liturgy==
During the funeral service at the end of the Mini-series, Priest [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in a foreign language. It is recognizable as a common Sanskrit prayer, found in Part I, Chapter III, Verse 28 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

:{|
| '''Devanāgarī''' || '''Transliteration''' || '''Translation'''
|-
| अस्तो मा सद् गमय || ásato ma sád gamaya || Lead me from unreal to Real
|-
| तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय || támaso ma jyótir gamaya || Lead me from darkness to Light
|-
| मृत्योन् मा अमृतं गमय् || mrtyór mamrtam gamaya || Lead me from death to Immortality
|}

Although the lyrics are identifiable, it should be noted that the actress's performance is closer to the chanting of biblical Hebrew, and does not resemble the traditional melody.

== Footnotes ==
# {{note|wireless}} This usage is not entirely unknown in Earth-bound English. As a synonym for radio or radiotelegraphy, it's more common in Britsh usage, according to [http://www.m-w.com/ Merriam-Webster]. It's also the source of the prefix 'Wi' in 'WiFi' and other similar wireless data standards now common.

Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive3

2006-03-16T20:58:56Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */ Heading got broken somehow.

==Radio Alphabet==

''Discussions moved to [[Talk:Colonial Wireless Alphabet]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 20:07, 10 October 2005 (EDT).''

==Aerelon Accent==
:''(It is probably some subtle nuance that a Colonial character like Baltar could notice, but that is indistinguishable from an American accent to the audience).''

No, listen. None of these characters are actually speaking English. The whole thing is a conceit to make it intelligable to the viewer. I'm sure that in the fictional universe of BSG, Boomer does speak with a "trace of an Aerelon accent", but since the show chooses to represent this as Standard American English, there's little point speculating about phonological variations that we can't hear. It's not a matter of Baltar being able to hear something we can't, the showmakers have just chosen not to give us the information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:38, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

: Yeah. I tend to agree. My agreement is influenced by a couple of things in addition to the above.

: '''One:''' I have a BA in Linguistics. I know a bit about accents and the sounds of human speech, etc. I'm also somewhat used to hearing differences in sounds that most Anglophones aren't used to (like distinctions that are meaningful in other languages, but not in English). These two things make it hard for me to believe that, after reading about this theory and listening to Boomer speak with the purpose of hearing an accent, I'd somehow be unable to hear it simply because I'm ''missing'' it.

: '''Two:''' I'm a rather large Tolkien dork and am familiar with the idea of "translating" something into English for the benefit of English-speaking viewers (to say nothing of over-dubbed versions of this show for non-English-speaking viewers. Additionally, being familiar with Tolkien's special flavor of language-centric crazy, I don't get that, well, vibe from RDM. He seems much more interested in the story and the cinematics than correctly representing the names of people from Dale as corrupted Old English names in order to show their long-ago linguistic connection to the Rohirrim, whose language is tacitly represented by Old English--as he should be.

: If, for whatever reason, the BSG production/directoral staff were interested in drawing parallels to Colonial accents with the use of English accents, it would be much more apparent. What is more likely is, as Peter posits, they aren't giving us the information. That's been screened out if for no other reason than the fact that they didn't really think about it. It's not a big deal. I think this is evidenced by Baltar's remark about Boomer's accent, actually. If they were keeping tabs of language enough to care about accents, they would realise the extreme unlikelihood that even a stereotypically recognized majority of an entire planet's population would have an accent that was the same. I mean--What's the most common (and thus, best seen as stereotypically Earthly) accent on our world? Chinese. Which is, you know, not precisely an accent. ;o)

: I think, actually, that the BSG crew ''are'' paying attention to accents, however. It's just not in a way that identifies characters geographically or--whatever. They pick accents that will predispose American and British (and, thus, probably Australian) viewers to certain preconceptions about their characters. Baltar speaks, more or less, the Queen's English, which will predispose Westerners to assume he's intelligent, wealthy, well bred and well educated. Baltar ''is'' these things. Kara Thrace speaks pretty standard American English and does it with a fairly high volume. She assumes the stereotypes of the loud American, so to speak. Notice, too, that the reporter had an English accent. At the end of her documentary, I half expected her to say, "This is D'anna Whatever, BBC news." I don't even ''get'' the BBC in Texas.

: This is getting absurdly lengthy. I apologize. I tend to do this when words are at issue. Anyway, one final point: I don't think the same thing can be neccesarily said for "race". Since where your genes are from, geographically, is a rather more visual thing, I tend to think that this would more easily occur to a TV producer as something worth keeping track of. That doesn't mean that it did and they are, but that most of my arguements here don't apply to that case much. I'll, ah, I'm done now. ;o) --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:31, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

::Well said. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:01, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

It is true that Grace Park is a fluent speaker of Korean, but her English--either as Sharon Valerii or as herself in interviews--bears no trace of a Korean accent whatsoever. I am married to a native Korean speaker, have friends and colleagues who speak Korean either as their first or second language, and have been studying the language for a few years myself, so I am absolutely certain that Korean has no bearing on what might or might not be considered an Aerelon accent. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:I tend to agree, but felt like someone would bring up her bilingualism inevitably and that it would be better to address it directly. If Grace Park (and thus Boomer) has a trace of ''any'' accent, it ought to be Korean, so I felt it worth a mention. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::You said that Grace Park's bilingualism would come up eventually. I would recommend limiting discussions of her bilingualism to the actress' bio page. The label "Korean" doesn't meaningfully describe anything that's going on when Sharon/Boomer is speaking. My own Korean is getting good enough that I'm approaching true "bilingual" status, but nobody would use "Korean" to describe my English. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:::Discussing Park's bilingualism on the actress' bio page would not shed any insight for a reader of this page, nor would it allay any questions that such knowledge might raise. I understand that her spoken english is flawless, but the fact that it is not actually her first language is at least marginally relevant here, and is given the footnote it deserves.

:::As for her "northwestern" accent, I don't truly believe that that's any different from General American / Standard Midwestern - the only phonological difference I can think of is the caught/cot merger, which is too subtle to deserve the name "accent". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:00, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Perhaps it should be specifically noted here that her Korean fluency doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever on her English accent. I agree with Peter that it's important to note it here, so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't come along and think we missed that point and that they've solved our problem by mentioning a (non-existant) Korean accent. Sometimes, when you are making an argument or assertion, you have to mention some things that are, really, irrelevant in order to make clear that they are, indeed, irrelevant so that others will not wrongly think that they are. Make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:08, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::::I was just about to say something like that. Thanks, Day! --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 03:10, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Tried to make it a little more forceful. You can tell that this wiki is great because we spend whole evenings discussing single sentences. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: Nice edit. And I hope you were being serious. I spent a lot of time in college working on a print publication and for the last couple years, I was the Editor in Chief (kind of a joke because there were only six of us on staff). In any case, it was a humor publication and sometimes we'd spend hours debating about the wording of a single sentence in order to deliver the most punch. It almost always paid off. In this case, we're not looking to be funny, but I still think it pays to make sure a sentence communicates exactly the information we intend: no more and no less. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::: Quite serious. Concision is nothing without precision. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: So, you're not really the Concision Fairy. You're the Concision/Percision Fairy. Which is less concise, but more precise. Maybe you're the (Con|Pre)cision Fairy. Phleh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:16, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

==Racetrack==
Is it just me or does Racetrack have a vaguely Canadian accent in her scene on the Raptor early in [[Final Cut]]? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

==Stating the obvious==

:''Mister (Mr), Miss, and Doctor have all been used, but Missus {Mrs} has not.''

The concision fairy frowns in disapproval. Why is this interesting? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:26, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

Nothing much since we haven't seen anyone married. Given the gender equality in BSG, however, it may well be that "Mrs" is not used. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:20, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

==Valley Girl Accent==

[[User:Day|Day]] and I believe that [[Pythia]] likely spoke with [[Wikipedia:High rising terminal|High rising terminal]]s, also known as a "valley girl accent". We have concluded this based on the fact that no less than 67% of the direct quotes from her book of prophecy begin with the coordinating conjunction "and", as in the following passage:

"And, like, the lords anointed a leader to like, guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland?, and, like, unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents numbering two and ten?, as like, a sign of things to come?, which is like, totally spooky. And then, like, the Arrow of Apollo will open the Tomb of Athena, which is totally ''boss'', but Zeus like, got all uppity and warned the leaders of the twelve tribes that any return to Kobol would exact a price in blood, which is totally ''gross'', 'cause blood is gross, y'know? And like, a real ''bummer'', since Kobol is hot shit."

So say we all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

: NO, that was meant to sound religious, in the tone of "And the number shall be "three". "Four" be too many, and "two" be too few (unless though then proceedeth to "three"). "Five" is right out. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005

::The effect is, as noted, somewhat different when you read them all out in a list. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Damn both of you. My deykoard is ruimed from spittake effect with kola! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:03, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

==General American==
On a somewhat smaller matter, there is no linguistically accepted version of English called "General English," with a capital G. I am willing to accept a lower case g, "general English," to indicate "common sense" notions about the accent/group of accents. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:You are correct. The article previously referred to Standard American English (SAE), which I have encountered in contrast to African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in sociolinguistics. As I'm sure you can tell, I intend to refer to the midwestern "newscaster accent" used throughout the entertainment industry.

:As for Wikipedia, they referred to this accent as [[Wikipedia:Standard Midwestern|Standard Midwestern]] until last February. It was then [[Wikipedia:Talk:General American#move to "General American"?|moved]] to [[Wikipedia:General American|General American]] based on [[Wikipedia:User:Angr|User:Angr]]'s statement that "the accent is not standard in any official sense, nor is it limited to the Midwest."

:Since they are serving as our primary reference, I am inclined to follow their conventions on the matter. Perhaps you could take up your point with them? I realize that we are not powerless to employ our own terminology, but consistancy strikes me as a self-evident virtue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Sigh. General American bothers me. I'd ''much'' prefer Standard American English. I mean--that's a term that linguists use when discussing American accents. I wish Wikipedia had a page entitled that, but I don't want to get into a land war there (or, really anything there as time is finite). A few things have to be understood about SAE (or, as it stands, General English):

:: 1) It doesn't really exist as a spoken dialect. No one grows up learning SAE the way one can grow up speaking Texan English or any of the various sub-dialects of AAVE or whatever. However, Americans seem to be able to sense what it is. This is still under research.

:: 2) When used in a non-scholastic setting (like this wiki), saying someone speaks SAE generally means that the region they learned English in is not identifyable by the way they speak. Apollo speaks SAE, for instance. However, Jamie Baber or however it's spellt, is British and really speaks some form of British English dialect (I've not heard him speak myself).

:: With these two trhings in mind, using a term like SAE to refer to dislects of characters is perfectly fine. I mean--the dialect is a kind of mental construct and so doesn't really exist and the characters, likewise, don't really exist. ;) Okay. That was a joke. My problem with the term "General American" is that I've never seen it before in a linguistic context. "Standard American English" is a term used in all caps like that in many texts by various authors. I'm tired and I think I'm losing coherancy. Does my point about, for lack of a better word, officialness come across clearly? I sure hope so. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:04, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::I would be happy to have the relevant links marked as Standard American English and go to Wiki's General American article through pipes. The term General American was introduced on October 8th by [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] - I'd like to know if he is personally in favor of the term, or was just matching wikipedia's terminology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:09, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

==Sanskrit to do==
*Link to credible text repository & audio recording.
*Transliterate Sanskrit properly, using IAST. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:53, 14 November 2005 (EST)

Hopefully the Don Davis sources may be of help to others in further translation from his Matrix Revolutions tracks (noted in our article now). Enlightening stuff--I use the "Navras" track and its chant in my daily workouts--gets my heart rate up. I was wondering why Elosha's chant seemed so damned familiar, and now I know why. Wild how my favorite SF topics and music merge like this. Speaking of which, I think a music article on BSG will be due sometime... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:09, 14 November 2005 (EST)

:Am I the only one who finds this matrix stuff to be badly off-topic? Davis's transliteration isn't very good, either. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:04, 14 November 2005 (EST)

::I'm going to strike this. If anyone wants to make a note of the coincidence on the references page, that would be fine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:12, 14 November 2005 (EST)

==Other Accents==
:What about all of the Canadian accents? I'm no linguist, but the way Tigh speaks sounds very different to the way Adama speaks. Besides, many characters on the show are played by Canadian actors like Aaron Douglas, Tricia Helfer, and Tahmoh Penikett, each with varying degrees of accent. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)

::Many Canadian accents are very similar to the Midwestern SAE used in Hollywood. If you can name a character with a particularly strong accent, I'd be happy to identify them here, but Hogan, Douglas, Helfer and Penikett don't seem to fit the bill.

::Note that place of origin and accent do not necessarily coincide - nobody would claim that Lee Adama speaks with a British Accent, although Jamie Bamber certainly does. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:32, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::I've always felt that Hogan's accent is somewhat obvious, but again, I'm not much experienced with Canadian-accented English. (I only know two or three Canadians myself.) Besides, you make a good point: even if Hogan's accent ''is'' strong enough to be considered noticable, it is no where near as different from SAE as, say, Baltar's. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:35, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::: For me, Tigh's just got a few words that stick out. Unfortunately, the only word that comes to mind off the top of my head is one that doesn't really exist: Kobol. Everyone else says it as if it were some American saying Co-Ball (['kou.'bol]) or something (equal stress on both syllables), whereas he seems to say ['kou.bl] (with the syllabic l at the end). That's hack-IPA, there, because I've yet to take the time to figure out the way the thingie for it works, here. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Texas Accent==
Y'know, Baltar's Six definitely refers to his "nucular device" in "[[Epiphanies]]". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:49, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: Actually, that's not a Texas thing. We talked about that specifically in one of my classes, since that's such a common misconception due to G. W. Bush's hailing from our state and and pronouncing it thus. Apparently that's common in many Southern dialects (as in "The South" which includes states as far north as Virginia, but not, say, New Mexico). Not that Texas is really ''excluded'' from that list, I just thought I'd point out that it's more common than many city-dwellers think (including myself before I attended the afore mentioned lecture). Personally, I say it "NEW-clee-er" only slightly more often than "NEW-cue-ler". I feel like I"m rambling on, so I won't go into what factors contribute to a dialect switching the L and the following vowel in this word. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Sounding off for a minute: the pronunciation is officially "New-clee-er", and Bush is yet again and embarrassment for pronouncing it wrong, then refusing to correct himself because he believes that he is infallible. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]]

::: See, now you're gonna start arguing right and wrong with a [[Wikipedia:Descriptive linguistics|descriptive linguist]]. We're not your [[Wikipedia:Prescription and description|prescriptive]] Highschool English teacher. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:29, 22 January 2006 (EST)

==Names==
I don't think its worthwhile to discuss the "meaning" of names that were borrowed from TOS here. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:17, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:Not sure that's entirely true (obviously :-) ), since in several cases Larson clearly borrowed those names from Hebrew/Greek himself, deliberately, and RDM is following in his footsteps.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 23:20, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::I think we need to edit down "Names" a lot for relevance/concision. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:58, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can accept that—some days I'm good at concision, other days, not so much. I'd actually originally intended to merely provide a couple of key examples, and I kinda got carried away :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:14, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:::By the way, Merv—thank you for your additions/clarifications to the names. And you may be right about the Roslin entry not really being highly relevant. I'll admit I just thought it was an amusing coincidence. And it may be more relevant than you think. The Cylons are clones, of a sort (albeit not clones of real human beings, but of 12 synthesized templates), and a Cylon-hybrid child saved Roslin's life... OK. It's a stretch :-) I can be convinced to remove the Roslin entry without much arm-twisting.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:21, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Language in the Twelve Colonies

2006-03-16T19:38:59Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */ Some concision/clarity edits. Noted TOS carry-overs. Merv, can we get citations on the RDMisms you added? They're nifty, but I'd like to pre-empt naysayers with refs.

{{Twelve Colonies Series}}
English, or some language that is universally translated into it (à la [[Wikipedia:Westron|Tolkien]]) is standard. Loanwords from foreign languages ("fascist", "karma", "esprit de corps" etc.) occur with normal frequency, as do chronologically enigmatic borrowings such as the [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Columbia]]''. Most religious terms are explicitly shared with ancient greek beliefs (either antecedent to or descendent from them).

==Vocabulary==

===Anachronisms===
[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] uses many terms from modern day naval aviation, which appear somewhat anachronistic but also lend the show a flavor of realistic jargon. These include:
*[[Combat Air Patrol]]
*[[Commander Air Group]]
*Planes
:'''Adama:''' You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly. ([[Litmus]])

===Ersatz===
In contrast to its [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|predecessor]], the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' employs relatively little in the way of ersatz vocabulary. It does employ a few terms outside of a normal american english vocabulary, mostly military jargon. These are mixed in haphazardly with the real-life naval aviation terms above.

*[[Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Constellation]] - [[Wikipedia:NATO phonetic alphabet|Charlie]] (As used in the sense of radio alphabetic code, e.g.: "Alpha, Bravo, Constellation".)
*[[Dradis]] - [[Wikipedia:RADAR|Radar]]
*[[Fumarella leaf]] - [[Wikipedia:Tobacco|Tobacco]]
*[[Frak]] - A bowdlerized version of "Fuck" (c.f. "[[Wikipedia:Frell|Frell]]" (Farscape), "[[Wikipedia:Frag|Frag]]" (Babylon 5), "[[Wikipedia:Smeg|Smeg]]" (Red Dwarf))
*[[G-4]] - [[Wikipedia: C-4 (explosive)|C-4]]
*[[Krypter]] - [[Wikipedia:Mayday|Mayday]]
*[[Morpha]] - [[Wikipedia:Morphine|Morphine]]
*[[Serisone]] - [[Wikipedia:prednisone|Prednisone]]
*[[Wireless]] - [[Wikipedia:Radio|Radio]]{{ref|wireless}}

===Invented Terminology===
As all science fiction shows must, Battlestar Galactica has a set of vocabulary referring to technologies and other items not shared with the real world.

*[[Ambrosia]] - a bright green alcoholic beverage
*[[Carom]] - the angle above or below the XY plane of a vessel, perpendicular to [[Wikipedia:Bearing (navigation)|bearing]] (c.f. "Mark" (Star Trek))
*[[Chamalla]] - an [[Wikipedia:Entheogen|entheogen]] used by priests
*[[Red Line]]

===Enigmas===

Language in ''Battlestar Galactica'' have terms whose origins are a curiosity due to chronology or uniqueness to the real-world Earth that likely wouldn't have a parallel of the same name in the Twelve Colonies. See [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Pre-History|an interpretation of the origin of humanity on Kobol]] that could support the derivation of these terms.

* ''[[Columbia]]'': This battlestar name's origin is strange since its popular Earth derivation comes from Christopher Columbus, a man unlikely to have existed in the Twelve Colonies.

===Honorifics===
Although civilians use the honorific "Madam" or it's shortened form "ma'am", in the Colonial military all superior officers are referred to as "Sir", regardless of gender. According to RDM's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs blog] on January 20th, 2006, the series follows the system established in "[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan|Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]]", where the term "sir" has become gender-neutral in military usage. Thus, [[Laura Roslin]] is refered to as "Madam President" or "ma'am" in a civilian context, but in her capacity as Commander-in-Chief, she is always addressed as "sir".

===Names===
Many characters have names include one or more components that appear to be a Biblical or Classical reference. It remains an enigma whether or not these should simply be thought of as translations for the audience's benefit.

Some of these apparent allusions may have no intended meaning beyond sounding good. Others are known to have been chosen for a reason, and that's noted where verifiable.

* [[William Adama|William]] and [[Lee Adama]]: "Adama" is Hebrew for "earth" in its literal meaning—ground, dirt—from which "Adam", the Biblical First Man, derives his name. It is also the name of a large city in Ethiopia. Lee's callsign "Apollo" is of course a reference to the Greek (and apparently, Kobolan) god. Both "Adama" and "Apollo" are carry-overs from the original series, where they were chosen for their mythological significance.
* [[Saul Tigh]]: "[[Wikipedia:Saul|Saul]]" is a Hebrew name, which means "borrowed". Biblical references include both the first king of Judah and Israel, and the birth-name of Paul of Tarsus. "Tigh" appears to have been made up by [[Glen A. Larson]]. Originally the character was named "Paul Tigh", but when it was discovered that this could not be used for legal reasons, it was shifted to "''S''aul Tigh", a reverse of the name switch that Saul of Tarsus/St. Paul made.
* [[Richard Adar]]: "[[Wikipedia:Adar|Adar]]" is a month in the Jewish lunar calendar still in use today. It coincides roughly with the Gregorian month of March. It is a carry over from the original series.
* [[Kara Thrace]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]]" was a Greek city.
* [[Galen Tyrol]]: "[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]]" was a famous Greek healer, the source of much Mediaeval medical knowledge (and misinformation). "[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]]" is a region that spans the border of Austria and Italy.
* [[Gaius Baltar]]: "Gaius" was the ''[[Wikipedia:praenomen|praenomen]]'' of the man we commonly call [[Wikipedia:Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]]. "Baltar" was made up by [[Glen A. Larson]] for the original series.
* [[Sharon Valerii]]: "Sharon" is Hebrew for forest, although it's also a common English woman's name. The [[Wikipedia:Valerius|gens Valeria]] is one of the longest-running families in the history of the [[Wikipedia:Roman Empire|Roman Empire]]. Curiously, "valerii" is the masculine plural form.
* [[Karl Agathon]]: "[[Wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]]" was an Athenian poet, a friend of Eurpides and Plato.
* [[Hera]]/Isis: "[[Wikipedia:Hera|Hera]]" was a Greek goddess, the wife of Zeus. "[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]" an Egyptian goddess, the wife of Horus in early mythology; the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus later. This is one of the few Egyptian references in the new series.
* [[Helena Cain]]: "[[Wikipedia:Helena|Helena]]" is a common enough name, but is also a possible reference to Helen of Troy. "[[Wikipedia:Cain|Cain]]" in the Old Testament is the first murderer, and is a carry-over from the original series.
* [[Aaron Doral]]: "[[Wikipedia:Aaron|Aaron]]" is a Biblical Hebrew name, the older brother of [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]].
* [[Anastasia Dualla]]: The Greek word ''[[Wikipedia:anastasia|anastasia]]'' translates to "resurrection", and was a deliberate choice by [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]]. It's also not an uncommon Greek and Russian name. Dualla is the name of a region and people in sub-saharan Africa.
* [[Tom Zarek]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thomas|Thomas]]" is a deliberate biblical reference, after the doubting apostle, although strictly speaking that apostle's name was Jude the Twin, "Tau'ma" being Aramaic for "twin". It's also a common English name. "Zarek" appears to be made up.

Uncertain references:
* [[Leoben Conoy]]: "[[Wikipedia:Leoben|Leoben]]" is an Austrian town where a preliminary peace in the Napoleonic wars was signed. "[[Wikipedia:Conoy|Conoy]]" is a Native American tribe, also known as the Piscataway. Both are pretty obscure.
* [[Laura Roslin]]: "[[Wikipedia:Roslin Institute|Roslin Institute]]" is where Dolly the Sheep was cloned. Roslin is a town in Scotland.
* [[Billy Keikeya]]: "Keikeya" appears to be made up.

==Accents==

Most characters speak with a [[Wikipedia:General American|Standard American]] accent, with some exceptions.

===English Accent===
Two characters speak with the [[Wikipedia:Received Pronunciation|Received Pronunciation]], Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] of Caprica and ship's medic [[Layne Ishay]]. Other characters from Caprica do not share this accent.

===Canadian Accent===
Occassionally when Col. [[Saul Tigh]] is shouting or barking out orders, he exhibits a faint canadian accent. [[Michael Hogan]] is a noted Canadian actor, and on the show his speech is usually indistinguishable from Standard American English, but observant fans can occassionally detect a trace of an accent.

===Spanish Accent===
[[Giana]], a woman rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], spoke with a Spanish accent, and inquired after the whereabouts of her husband, who she stated was "stationed on Gemenon". Her place of origin is unclear, but no other characters from either Caprica, [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], or anywhere else have shared this accent. The actress, Lymari Nadal, is from Puerto Rico.

===Aerelon Accent===
In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", Baltar noted that Sharon Valerii spoke with a trace of an [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] accent. The actress who portrays her, Grace Park, is fluent in both English and Korean, but speaks Standard American English without a foreign accent.

===Kiwi Accent===
The reporter [[D'anna Biers]] speaks with a Kiwi/New Zealand accent (this is actually the accent that actress [[Lucy Lawless]] speaks with when off screen, because she is from New Zealand). However, the same episode revealed that D'anna is actually a [[Cylon agent]], and another copy of D'anna on Cylon-occupied Caprica does ''not'' speak with this accent, but a Standard American one. This seems to imply that D'anna's entire personality was for show, and that the Cylons seem to use more standardized pronunciation when amongst themselves ([[Final Cut]]; this subtle hint made by ''not'' using her Kiwi accent is also mentioned in David Eick's video blog). However, in her subsequent appearance in "[[Downloaded]]", D'anna/Number Three continues to speak with a Kiwi accent on Caprica (probably because Lawless wanted to keep using her normal Kiwi accent, after her character was turned into a recurring role).

==Liturgy==
During the funeral service at the end of the Mini-series, Priest [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in a foreign language. It is recognizable as a common Sanskrit prayer, found in Part I, Chapter III, Verse 28 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

:{|
| '''Devanāgarī''' || '''Transliteration''' || '''Translation'''
|-
| अस्तो मा सद् गमय || ásato ma sád gamaya || Lead me from unreal to Real
|-
| तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय || támaso ma jyótir gamaya || Lead me from darkness to Light
|-
| मृत्योन् मा अमृतं गमय् || mrtyór mamrtam gamaya || Lead me from death to Immortality
|}

Although the lyrics are identifiable, it should be noted that the actress's performance is closer to the chanting of biblical Hebrew, and does not resemble the traditional melody.

== Footnotes ==
# {{note|wireless}} This usage is not entirely unknown in Earth-bound English. As a synonym for radio or radiotelegraphy, it's more common in Britsh usage, according to [http://www.m-w.com/ Merriam-Webster]. It's also the source of the prefix 'Wi' in 'WiFi' and other similar wireless data standards now common.

Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive3

2006-03-16T19:21:24Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

==Radio Alphabet==

''Discussions moved to [[Talk:Colonial Wireless Alphabet]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 20:07, 10 October 2005 (EDT).''

==Aerelon Accent==
:''(It is probably some subtle nuance that a Colonial character like Baltar could notice, but that is indistinguishable from an American accent to the audience).''

No, listen. None of these characters are actually speaking English. The whole thing is a conceit to make it intelligable to the viewer. I'm sure that in the fictional universe of BSG, Boomer does speak with a "trace of an Aerelon accent", but since the show chooses to represent this as Standard American English, there's little point speculating about phonological variations that we can't hear. It's not a matter of Baltar being able to hear something we can't, the showmakers have just chosen not to give us the information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:38, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

: Yeah. I tend to agree. My agreement is influenced by a couple of things in addition to the above.

: '''One:''' I have a BA in Linguistics. I know a bit about accents and the sounds of human speech, etc. I'm also somewhat used to hearing differences in sounds that most Anglophones aren't used to (like distinctions that are meaningful in other languages, but not in English). These two things make it hard for me to believe that, after reading about this theory and listening to Boomer speak with the purpose of hearing an accent, I'd somehow be unable to hear it simply because I'm ''missing'' it.

: '''Two:''' I'm a rather large Tolkien dork and am familiar with the idea of "translating" something into English for the benefit of English-speaking viewers (to say nothing of over-dubbed versions of this show for non-English-speaking viewers. Additionally, being familiar with Tolkien's special flavor of language-centric crazy, I don't get that, well, vibe from RDM. He seems much more interested in the story and the cinematics than correctly representing the names of people from Dale as corrupted Old English names in order to show their long-ago linguistic connection to the Rohirrim, whose language is tacitly represented by Old English--as he should be.

: If, for whatever reason, the BSG production/directoral staff were interested in drawing parallels to Colonial accents with the use of English accents, it would be much more apparent. What is more likely is, as Peter posits, they aren't giving us the information. That's been screened out if for no other reason than the fact that they didn't really think about it. It's not a big deal. I think this is evidenced by Baltar's remark about Boomer's accent, actually. If they were keeping tabs of language enough to care about accents, they would realise the extreme unlikelihood that even a stereotypically recognized majority of an entire planet's population would have an accent that was the same. I mean--What's the most common (and thus, best seen as stereotypically Earthly) accent on our world? Chinese. Which is, you know, not precisely an accent. ;o)

: I think, actually, that the BSG crew ''are'' paying attention to accents, however. It's just not in a way that identifies characters geographically or--whatever. They pick accents that will predispose American and British (and, thus, probably Australian) viewers to certain preconceptions about their characters. Baltar speaks, more or less, the Queen's English, which will predispose Westerners to assume he's intelligent, wealthy, well bred and well educated. Baltar ''is'' these things. Kara Thrace speaks pretty standard American English and does it with a fairly high volume. She assumes the stereotypes of the loud American, so to speak. Notice, too, that the reporter had an English accent. At the end of her documentary, I half expected her to say, "This is D'anna Whatever, BBC news." I don't even ''get'' the BBC in Texas.

: This is getting absurdly lengthy. I apologize. I tend to do this when words are at issue. Anyway, one final point: I don't think the same thing can be neccesarily said for "race". Since where your genes are from, geographically, is a rather more visual thing, I tend to think that this would more easily occur to a TV producer as something worth keeping track of. That doesn't mean that it did and they are, but that most of my arguements here don't apply to that case much. I'll, ah, I'm done now. ;o) --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:31, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

::Well said. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:01, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

It is true that Grace Park is a fluent speaker of Korean, but her English--either as Sharon Valerii or as herself in interviews--bears no trace of a Korean accent whatsoever. I am married to a native Korean speaker, have friends and colleagues who speak Korean either as their first or second language, and have been studying the language for a few years myself, so I am absolutely certain that Korean has no bearing on what might or might not be considered an Aerelon accent. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:I tend to agree, but felt like someone would bring up her bilingualism inevitably and that it would be better to address it directly. If Grace Park (and thus Boomer) has a trace of ''any'' accent, it ought to be Korean, so I felt it worth a mention. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::You said that Grace Park's bilingualism would come up eventually. I would recommend limiting discussions of her bilingualism to the actress' bio page. The label "Korean" doesn't meaningfully describe anything that's going on when Sharon/Boomer is speaking. My own Korean is getting good enough that I'm approaching true "bilingual" status, but nobody would use "Korean" to describe my English. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:::Discussing Park's bilingualism on the actress' bio page would not shed any insight for a reader of this page, nor would it allay any questions that such knowledge might raise. I understand that her spoken english is flawless, but the fact that it is not actually her first language is at least marginally relevant here, and is given the footnote it deserves.

:::As for her "northwestern" accent, I don't truly believe that that's any different from General American / Standard Midwestern - the only phonological difference I can think of is the caught/cot merger, which is too subtle to deserve the name "accent". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:00, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Perhaps it should be specifically noted here that her Korean fluency doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever on her English accent. I agree with Peter that it's important to note it here, so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't come along and think we missed that point and that they've solved our problem by mentioning a (non-existant) Korean accent. Sometimes, when you are making an argument or assertion, you have to mention some things that are, really, irrelevant in order to make clear that they are, indeed, irrelevant so that others will not wrongly think that they are. Make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:08, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::::I was just about to say something like that. Thanks, Day! --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 03:10, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Tried to make it a little more forceful. You can tell that this wiki is great because we spend whole evenings discussing single sentences. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: Nice edit. And I hope you were being serious. I spent a lot of time in college working on a print publication and for the last couple years, I was the Editor in Chief (kind of a joke because there were only six of us on staff). In any case, it was a humor publication and sometimes we'd spend hours debating about the wording of a single sentence in order to deliver the most punch. It almost always paid off. In this case, we're not looking to be funny, but I still think it pays to make sure a sentence communicates exactly the information we intend: no more and no less. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::: Quite serious. Concision is nothing without precision. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: So, you're not really the Concision Fairy. You're the Concision/Percision Fairy. Which is less concise, but more precise. Maybe you're the (Con|Pre)cision Fairy. Phleh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:16, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

==Racetrack==
Is it just me or does Racetrack have a vaguely Canadian accent in her scene on the Raptor early in [[Final Cut]]? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

==Stating the obvious==

:''Mister (Mr), Miss, and Doctor have all been used, but Missus {Mrs} has not.''

The concision fairy frowns in disapproval. Why is this interesting? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:26, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

Nothing much since we haven't seen anyone married. Given the gender equality in BSG, however, it may well be that "Mrs" is not used. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:20, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

==Valley Girl Accent==

[[User:Day|Day]] and I believe that [[Pythia]] likely spoke with [[Wikipedia:High rising terminal|High rising terminal]]s, also known as a "valley girl accent". We have concluded this based on the fact that no less than 67% of the direct quotes from her book of prophecy begin with the coordinating conjunction "and", as in the following passage:

"And, like, the lords anointed a leader to like, guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland?, and, like, unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents numbering two and ten?, as like, a sign of things to come?, which is like, totally spooky. And then, like, the Arrow of Apollo will open the Tomb of Athena, which is totally ''boss'', but Zeus like, got all uppity and warned the leaders of the twelve tribes that any return to Kobol would exact a price in blood, which is totally ''gross'', 'cause blood is gross, y'know? And like, a real ''bummer'', since Kobol is hot shit."

So say we all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

: NO, that was meant to sound religious, in the tone of "And the number shall be "three". "Four" be too many, and "two" be too few (unless though then proceedeth to "three"). "Five" is right out. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005

::The effect is, as noted, somewhat different when you read them all out in a list. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Damn both of you. My deykoard is ruimed from spittake effect with kola! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:03, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

==General American==
On a somewhat smaller matter, there is no linguistically accepted version of English called "General English," with a capital G. I am willing to accept a lower case g, "general English," to indicate "common sense" notions about the accent/group of accents. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:You are correct. The article previously referred to Standard American English (SAE), which I have encountered in contrast to African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in sociolinguistics. As I'm sure you can tell, I intend to refer to the midwestern "newscaster accent" used throughout the entertainment industry.

:As for Wikipedia, they referred to this accent as [[Wikipedia:Standard Midwestern|Standard Midwestern]] until last February. It was then [[Wikipedia:Talk:General American#move to "General American"?|moved]] to [[Wikipedia:General American|General American]] based on [[Wikipedia:User:Angr|User:Angr]]'s statement that "the accent is not standard in any official sense, nor is it limited to the Midwest."

:Since they are serving as our primary reference, I am inclined to follow their conventions on the matter. Perhaps you could take up your point with them? I realize that we are not powerless to employ our own terminology, but consistancy strikes me as a self-evident virtue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Sigh. General American bothers me. I'd ''much'' prefer Standard American English. I mean--that's a term that linguists use when discussing American accents. I wish Wikipedia had a page entitled that, but I don't want to get into a land war there (or, really anything there as time is finite). A few things have to be understood about SAE (or, as it stands, General English):

:: 1) It doesn't really exist as a spoken dialect. No one grows up learning SAE the way one can grow up speaking Texan English or any of the various sub-dialects of AAVE or whatever. However, Americans seem to be able to sense what it is. This is still under research.

:: 2) When used in a non-scholastic setting (like this wiki), saying someone speaks SAE generally means that the region they learned English in is not identifyable by the way they speak. Apollo speaks SAE, for instance. However, Jamie Baber or however it's spellt, is British and really speaks some form of British English dialect (I've not heard him speak myself).

:: With these two trhings in mind, using a term like SAE to refer to dislects of characters is perfectly fine. I mean--the dialect is a kind of mental construct and so doesn't really exist and the characters, likewise, don't really exist. ;) Okay. That was a joke. My problem with the term "General American" is that I've never seen it before in a linguistic context. "Standard American English" is a term used in all caps like that in many texts by various authors. I'm tired and I think I'm losing coherancy. Does my point about, for lack of a better word, officialness come across clearly? I sure hope so. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:04, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::I would be happy to have the relevant links marked as Standard American English and go to Wiki's General American article through pipes. The term General American was introduced on October 8th by [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] - I'd like to know if he is personally in favor of the term, or was just matching wikipedia's terminology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:09, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

==Sanskrit to do==
*Link to credible text repository & audio recording.
*Transliterate Sanskrit properly, using IAST. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:53, 14 November 2005 (EST)

Hopefully the Don Davis sources may be of help to others in further translation from his Matrix Revolutions tracks (noted in our article now). Enlightening stuff--I use the "Navras" track and its chant in my daily workouts--gets my heart rate up. I was wondering why Elosha's chant seemed so damned familiar, and now I know why. Wild how my favorite SF topics and music merge like this. Speaking of which, I think a music article on BSG will be due sometime... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:09, 14 November 2005 (EST)

:Am I the only one who finds this matrix stuff to be badly off-topic? Davis's transliteration isn't very good, either. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:04, 14 November 2005 (EST)

::I'm going to strike this. If anyone wants to make a note of the coincidence on the references page, that would be fine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:12, 14 November 2005 (EST)

==Other Accents==
:What about all of the Canadian accents? I'm no linguist, but the way Tigh speaks sounds very different to the way Adama speaks. Besides, many characters on the show are played by Canadian actors like Aaron Douglas, Tricia Helfer, and Tahmoh Penikett, each with varying degrees of accent. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)

::Many Canadian accents are very similar to the Midwestern SAE used in Hollywood. If you can name a character with a particularly strong accent, I'd be happy to identify them here, but Hogan, Douglas, Helfer and Penikett don't seem to fit the bill.

::Note that place of origin and accent do not necessarily coincide - nobody would claim that Lee Adama speaks with a British Accent, although Jamie Bamber certainly does. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:32, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::I've always felt that Hogan's accent is somewhat obvious, but again, I'm not much experienced with Canadian-accented English. (I only know two or three Canadians myself.) Besides, you make a good point: even if Hogan's accent ''is'' strong enough to be considered noticable, it is no where near as different from SAE as, say, Baltar's. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:35, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::: For me, Tigh's just got a few words that stick out. Unfortunately, the only word that comes to mind off the top of my head is one that doesn't really exist: Kobol. Everyone else says it as if it were some American saying Co-Ball (['kou.'bol]) or something (equal stress on both syllables), whereas he seems to say ['kou.bl] (with the syllabic l at the end). That's hack-IPA, there, because I've yet to take the time to figure out the way the thingie for it works, here. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Texas Accent==
Y'know, Baltar's Six definitely refers to his "nucular device" in "[[Epiphanies]]". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:49, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: Actually, that's not a Texas thing. We talked about that specifically in one of my classes, since that's such a common misconception due to G. W. Bush's hailing from our state and and pronouncing it thus. Apparently that's common in many Southern dialects (as in "The South" which includes states as far north as Virginia, but not, say, New Mexico). Not that Texas is really ''excluded'' from that list, I just thought I'd point out that it's more common than many city-dwellers think (including myself before I attended the afore mentioned lecture). Personally, I say it "NEW-clee-er" only slightly more often than "NEW-cue-ler". I feel like I"m rambling on, so I won't go into what factors contribute to a dialect switching the L and the following vowel in this word. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Sounding off for a minute: the pronunciation is officially "New-clee-er", and Bush is yet again and embarrassment for pronouncing it wrong, then refusing to correct himself because he believes that he is infallible. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]]

::: See, now you're gonna start arguing right and wrong with a [[Wikipedia:Descriptive linguistics|descriptive linguist]]. We're not your [[Wikipedia:Prescription and description|prescriptive]] Highschool English teacher. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:29, 22 January 2006 (EST)

==Names==--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:21, 16 March 2006 (CST)
I don't think its worthwhile to discuss the "meaning" of names that were borrowed from TOS here. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:17, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:Not sure that's entirely true (obviously :-) ), since in several cases Larson clearly borrowed those names from Hebrew/Greek himself, deliberately, and RDM is following in his footsteps.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 23:20, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::I think we need to edit down "Names" a lot for relevance/concision. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:58, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can accept that—some days I'm good at concision, other days, not so much. I'd actually originally intended to merely provide a couple of key examples, and I kinda got carried away :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:14, 16 March 2006 (CST)
:::By the way, Merv—thank you for your additions/clarifications to the names. And you may be right about the Roslin entry not really being highly relevant. I'll admit I just thought it was an amusing coincidence. And it may be more relevant than you think. The Cylons are clones, of a sort (albeit not clones of real human beings, but of 12 synthesized templates), and a Cylon-hybrid child saved Roslin's life... OK. It's a stretch :-) I can be convinced to remove the Roslin entry without much arm-twisting.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:21, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive3

2006-03-16T16:14:17Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive3

2006-03-16T05:20:50Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

Language in the Twelve Colonies

2006-03-16T05:07:50Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */ Might be time to go to sleep. I'm putting sentences on the wrong paragraphs!

{{Twelve Colonies Series}}
English, or some language that is universally translated into it (à la [[Wikipedia:Westron|Tolkien]]) is standard. Loanwords from foreign languages ("fascist", "karma", "esprit de corps" etc.) occur with normal frequency, as do chronologically enigmatic borrowings such as the [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Columbia]]''. Most religious terms are explicitly shared with ancient greek beliefs (either antecedent to or descendent from them).

==Vocabulary==

===Anachronisms===
[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] uses many terms from modern day naval aviation, which appear somewhat anachronistic but also lend the show a flavor of realistic jargon. These include:
*[[Combat Air Patrol]]
*[[Commander Air Group]]
*Planes
:'''Adama:''' You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly. ([[Litmus]])

===Ersatz===
In contrast to its [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|predecessor]], the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' employs relatively little in the way of ersatz vocabulary. It does employ a few terms outside of a normal american english vocabulary, mostly military jargon. These are mixed in haphazardly with the real-life naval aviation terms above.

*[[Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Constellation]] - [[Wikipedia:NATO phonetic alphabet|Charlie]] (As used in the sense of radio alphabetic code, e.g.: "Alpha, Bravo, Constellation".)
*[[Dradis]] - [[Wikipedia:RADAR|Radar]]
*[[Fumarella leaf]] - [[Wikipedia:Tobacco|Tobacco]]
*[[Frak]] - A bowdlerized version of "Fuck" (c.f. "[[Wikipedia:Frell|Frell]]" (Farscape), "[[Wikipedia:Frag|Frag]]" (Babylon 5), "[[Wikipedia:Smeg|Smeg]]" (Red Dwarf))
*[[G-4]] - [[Wikipedia: C-4 (explosive)|C-4]]
*[[Krypter]] - [[Wikipedia:Mayday|Mayday]]
*[[Morpha]] - [[Wikipedia:Morphine|Morphine]]
*[[Serisone]] - [[Wikipedia:prednisone|Prednisone]]
*[[Wireless]] - [[Wikipedia:Radio|Radio]]{{ref|wireless}}

===Invented Terminology===
As all science fiction shows must, Battlestar Galactica has a set of vocabulary referring to technologies and other items not shared with the real world.

*[[Ambrosia]] - a bright green alcoholic beverage{{ref|ambrosia}}
*[[Carom]] - the angle above or below the XY plane of a vessel, perpendicular to [[Wikipedia:Bearing (navigation)|bearing]] (c.f. "Mark" (Star Trek))
*[[Chamalla]] - an [[Wikipedia:Entheogen|entheogen]] used by priests
*[[Red Line]]

===Enigmas===

Language in ''Battlestar Galactica'' have terms whose origins are a curiosity due to chronology or uniqueness to the real-world Earth that likely wouldn't have a parallel of the same name in the Twelve Colonies. See [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Pre-History|an interpretation of the origin of humanity on Kobol]] that could support the derivation of these terms.

* ''[[Columbia]]'': This battlestar name's origin is strange since its popular Earth derivation comes from Christopher Columbus, a man unlikely to have existed in the Twelve Colonies.

===Honorifics===
Although civilians use the honorific "Madam" or it's shortened form "ma'am", in the Colonial military all superior officers are referred to as "Sir", regardless of gender. According to RDM's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs blog] on January 20th, 2006, the series follows the system established in "[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan|Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]]", where the term "sir" has become gender-neutral in military usage. Thus, [[Laura Roslin]] is refered to as "Madam President" or "ma'am" in a civilian context, but in her capacity as Commander-in-Chief, she is always addressed as "sir".

===Names===
Many characters have names that are a composite of an ordinary English name and a name of Biblical or Classical significance, while some few have names that are both references, and some have names part of which are simply made up. Again, it remains an enigma whether these should be thought of as translations for the audience's benefit; whether we are expected to believe that our Earth-bound names derive from a common root with Colonial names, both originating on Kobol; or whether Earth is intended to be the true origin, and if legend is correct, eventual point of return for the thirteenth "tribe".

No attempt is made to speculate as the intended meanings of the references cited below. It is even quite possible that none of these are intended by the producers as anything other than interesting sounding names based on words they found in the dictionary!

* [[William Adama|William]] and [[Lee Adama]]: "Adama" is Hebrew for "earth" in its literal meaning—ground, dirt—from which "Adam", the Biblical First Man, derives his name. Lee's callsign "Apollo" is of course a reference to the Greek (and apparently, Kobolan) god.
* [[Saul Tigh]]: "[[Wikipedia:Saul|Saul]]" is a Hebrew name, which means "borrowed". Biblical references include both the first king of Judah and Israel, and the birth-name of Paul of Tarsus. "Tigh" appears to have been made up by [[Glen A. Larson]].
* [[Richard Adar]]: "[[Wikipedia:Adar|Adar]]" is a month in the Jewish lunar calendar still in use today. It coincides roughly with the Gregorian month of March.
* [[Kara Thrace]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]]" was a Greek city.
* [[Galen Tyrol]]: "[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]]" was a famous Greek healer, the source of much Mediaeval medical knowledge (and misinformation). "[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]]" is a region that spans the border of Austria and Italy.
* [[Gaius Baltar]]: "Gaius" was the ''[[Wikipedia:praenomen|praenomen]]'' of the man we commonly call [[Wikipedia:Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]]. "Baltar" was made up by [[Glen A. Larson]].
* [[Sharon Valerii]]: "Sharon" is Hebrew for forest, although it may have been chosen solely for the fact that it's a normal-sounding English woman's name. The [[Wikipedia:Valerius|gens Valeria]] is one of the longest-running families in the history of the [[Wikipedia:Roman Empire|Roman Empire]]. Curiously, "valerii" is the masculine plural form.
* [[Karl Agathon]]: "[[Wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]]" was an Athenian poet, a friend of Eurpides and Plato.
* [[Hera]]/Isis: "[[Wikipedia:Hera|Hera]]" was a Greek goddess, the wife of Zeus. "[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]" an Egyptian goddess, the wife of Horus in early mythology; the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus later. This is one of the few Egyptian references in the new series.
* [[Helena Cain]]: "[[Wikipedia:Helena|Helena]]" is a common enough name, but is also a possible reference to Helen of Troy. "[[Wikipedia:Cain|Cain]]" in the Old Testament is the first murderer.
* [[Aaron Doral]]: "[[Wikipedia:Aaron|Aaron]]" is a Biblical Hebrew name, the older brother of [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]].

Uncertain references:
* [[Leoben Conoy]]: "[[Wikipedia:Leoben|Leoben]]" is an Austrian town where a preliminary peace in the Napoleonic wars was signed. "[[Wikipedia:Conoy|Conoy]]" is a Native American tribe, also known as the Piscataway. Both are pretty obscure.
* [[Laura Roslin]]: "[[Wikipedia:Roslin Institute|Roslin Institute]]" is where Dolly the Sheep was cloned! Roslin is a town in Scotland.
* [[Anastasia Dualla]]: The Greek word ''[[Wikipedia:anastasia|anastasia]]'' translates to "resurrection". It's also not an uncommon Greek and Russian name. "Dualla" appears to be made up.
* [[Tom Zarek]]: "Thomas" may be a biblical reference, although strictly speaking it isn't a biblical name (the word we translate as "Thomas" is actually an epithet meaning "twin"). It's certainly a common enough English name. "Zarek" appears to be made up.
* [[Billy Keikeya]]: "Keikeya" appears to be made up.

==Accents==

Most characters speak with a [[Wikipedia:General American|Standard American]] accent, with some exceptions.

===English Accent===
Two characters speak with the [[Wikipedia:Received Pronunciation|Received Pronunciation]], Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] of Caprica and ship's medic [[Layne Ishay]]. Other characters from Caprica do not share this accent.

===Canadian Accent===
Occassionally when Col. [[Saul Tigh]] is shouting or barking out orders, he exhibits a faint canadian accent. [[Michael Hogan]] is a noted Canadian actor, and on the show his speech is usually indistinguishable from Standard American English, but observant fans can occassionally detect a trace of an accent.

===Spanish Accent===
[[Giana]], a woman rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], spoke with a Spanish accent, and inquired after the whereabouts of her husband, who she stated was "stationed on Gemenon". Her place of origin is unclear, but no other characters from either Caprica, [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], or anywhere else have shared this accent. The actress, Lymari Nadal, is from Puerto Rico.

===Aerelon Accent===
In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", Baltar noted that Sharon Valerii spoke with a trace of an [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] accent. The actress who portrays her, Grace Park, is fluent in both English and Korean, but speaks Standard American English without a foreign accent.

===Kiwi Accent===
The reporter [[D'anna Biers]] speaks with a Kiwi/New Zealand accent (this is actually the accent that actress [[Lucy Lawless]] speaks with when off screen, because she is from New Zealand). However, the same episode revealed that D'anna is actually a [[Cylon agent]], and another copy of D'anna on Cylon-occupied Caprica does ''not'' speak with this accent, but a Standard American one. This seems to imply that D'anna's entire personality was for show, and that the Cylons seem to use more standardized pronunciation when amongst themselves ([[Final Cut]]; this subtle hint made by ''not'' using her Kiwi accent is also mentioned in David Eick's video blog). However, in her subsequent appearance in "[[Downloaded]]", D'anna/Number Three continues to speak with a Kiwi accent on Caprica (probably because Lawless wanted to keep using her normal Kiwi accent, after her character was turned into a recurring role).

==Liturgy==
During the funeral service at the end of the Mini-series, Priest [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in a foreign language. It is recognizable as a common Sanskrit prayer, found in Part I, Chapter III, Verse 28 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

:{|
| '''Devanāgarī''' || '''Transliteration''' || '''Translation'''
|-
| अस्तो मा सद् गमय || ásato ma sád gamaya || Lead me from unreal to Real
|-
| तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय || támaso ma jyótir gamaya || Lead me from darkness to Light
|-
| मृत्योन् मा अमृतं गमय् || mrtyór mamrtam gamaya || Lead me from death to Immortality
|}

Although the lyrics are identifiable, it should be noted that the actress's performance is closer to the chanting of biblical Hebrew, and does not resemble the traditional melody.

== Footnotes ==
# {{note|wireless}} This usage is not entirely unknown in Earth-bound English. As a synonym for radio or radiotelegraphy, it's more common in Britsh usage, according to [http://www.m-w.com/ Merriam-Webster]. It's also the source of the prefix 'Wi' in 'WiFi' and other similar wireless data standards now common.

Language in the Twelve Colonies

2006-03-16T05:06:51Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

{{Twelve Colonies Series}}
English, or some language that is universally translated into it (à la [[Wikipedia:Westron|Tolkien]]) is standard. Loanwords from foreign languages ("fascist", "karma", "esprit de corps" etc.) occur with normal frequency, as do chronologically enigmatic borrowings such as the [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Columbia]]''. Most religious terms are explicitly shared with ancient greek beliefs (either antecedent to or descendent from them).

==Vocabulary==

===Anachronisms===
[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] uses many terms from modern day naval aviation, which appear somewhat anachronistic but also lend the show a flavor of realistic jargon. These include:
*[[Combat Air Patrol]]
*[[Commander Air Group]]
*Planes
:'''Adama:''' You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly. ([[Litmus]])

===Ersatz===
In contrast to its [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|predecessor]], the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' employs relatively little in the way of ersatz vocabulary. It does employ a few terms outside of a normal american english vocabulary, mostly military jargon. These are mixed in haphazardly with the real-life naval aviation terms above.

*[[Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Constellation]] - [[Wikipedia:NATO phonetic alphabet|Charlie]] (As used in the sense of radio alphabetic code, e.g.: "Alpha, Bravo, Constellation".)
*[[Dradis]] - [[Wikipedia:RADAR|Radar]]
*[[Fumarella leaf]] - [[Wikipedia:Tobacco|Tobacco]]
*[[Frak]] - A bowdlerized version of "Fuck" (c.f. "[[Wikipedia:Frell|Frell]]" (Farscape), "[[Wikipedia:Frag|Frag]]" (Babylon 5), "[[Wikipedia:Smeg|Smeg]]" (Red Dwarf))
*[[G-4]] - [[Wikipedia: C-4 (explosive)|C-4]]
*[[Krypter]] - [[Wikipedia:Mayday|Mayday]]
*[[Morpha]] - [[Wikipedia:Morphine|Morphine]]
*[[Serisone]] - [[Wikipedia:prednisone|Prednisone]]
*[[Wireless]] - [[Wikipedia:Radio|Radio]]{{ref|wireless}}

===Invented Terminology===
As all science fiction shows must, Battlestar Galactica has a set of vocabulary referring to technologies and other items not shared with the real world.

*[[Ambrosia]] - a bright green alcoholic beverage{{ref|ambrosia}}
*[[Carom]] - the angle above or below the XY plane of a vessel, perpendicular to [[Wikipedia:Bearing (navigation)|bearing]] (c.f. "Mark" (Star Trek))
*[[Chamalla]] - an [[Wikipedia:Entheogen|entheogen]] used by priests
*[[Red Line]]

===Enigmas===

Language in ''Battlestar Galactica'' have terms whose origins are a curiosity due to chronology or uniqueness to the real-world Earth that likely wouldn't have a parallel of the same name in the Twelve Colonies. See [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Pre-History|an interpretation of the origin of humanity on Kobol]] that could support the derivation of these terms.

* ''[[Columbia]]'': This battlestar name's origin is strange since its popular Earth derivation comes from Christopher Columbus, a man unlikely to have existed in the Twelve Colonies.

===Honorifics===
Although civilians use the honorific "Madam" or it's shortened form "ma'am", in the Colonial military all superior officers are referred to as "Sir", regardless of gender. According to RDM's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs blog] on January 20th, 2006, the series follows the system established in "[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan|Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]]", where the term "sir" has become gender-neutral in military usage. Thus, [[Laura Roslin]] is refered to as "Madam President" or "ma'am" in a civilian context, but in her capacity as Commander-in-Chief, she is always addressed as "sir".

===Names===
Many characters have names that are a composite of an ordinary English name and a name of Biblical or Classical significance, while some few have names that are both references, and some have names part of which are simply made up. Again, it remains an enigma whether these should be thought of as translations for the audience's benefit; whether we are expected to believe that our Earth-bound names derive from a common root with Colonial names, both originating on Kobol; or whether Earth is intended to be the true origin, and if legend is correct, eventual point of return for the thirteenth "tribe".

No attempt is made to speculate as the intended meanings of the references cited below. It is even quite possible that none of these are intended by the producers as anything other than interesting sounding names based on words they found in the dictionary!

* [[William Adama|William]] and [[Lee Adama]]: "Adama" is Hebrew for "earth" in its literal meaning—ground, dirt—from which "Adam", the Biblical First Man, derives his name. Lee's callsign "Apollo" is of course a reference to the Greek (and apparently, Kobolan) god. "Tigh" appears to have been made up by [[Glen A. Larson]].
* [[Saul Tigh]]: "[[Wikipedia:Saul|Saul]]" is a Hebrew name, which means "borrowed". Biblical references include both the first king of Judah and Israel, and the birth-name of Paul of Tarsus.
* [[Richard Adar]]: "[[Wikipedia:Adar|Adar]]" is a month in the Jewish lunar calendar still in use today. It coincides roughly with the Gregorian month of March.
* [[Kara Thrace]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]]" was a Greek city.
* [[Galen Tyrol]]: "[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]]" was a famous Greek healer, the source of much Mediaeval medical knowledge (and misinformation). "[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]]" is a region that spans the border of Austria and Italy.
* [[Gaius Baltar]]: "Gaius" was the ''[[Wikipedia:praenomen|praenomen]]'' of the man we commonly call [[Wikipedia:Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]]. "Baltar" was made up by [[Glen A. Larson]].
* [[Sharon Valerii]]: "Sharon" is Hebrew for forest, although it may have been chosen solely for the fact that it's a normal-sounding English woman's name. The [[Wikipedia:Valerius|gens Valeria]] is one of the longest-running families in the history of the [[Wikipedia:Roman Empire|Roman Empire]]. Curiously, "valerii" is the masculine plural form.
* [[Karl Agathon]]: "[[Wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]]" was an Athenian poet, a friend of Eurpides and Plato.
* [[Hera]]/Isis: "[[Wikipedia:Hera|Hera]]" was a Greek goddess, the wife of Zeus. "[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]" an Egyptian goddess, the wife of Horus in early mythology; the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus later. This is one of the few Egyptian references in the new series.
* [[Helena Cain]]: "[[Wikipedia:Helena|Helena]]" is a common enough name, but is also a possible reference to Helen of Troy. "[[Wikipedia:Cain|Cain]]" in the Old Testament is the first murderer.
* [[Aaron Doral]]: "[[Wikipedia:Aaron|Aaron]]" is a Biblical Hebrew name, the older brother of [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]].

Uncertain references:
* [[Leoben Conoy]]: "[[Wikipedia:Leoben|Leoben]]" is an Austrian town where a preliminary peace in the Napoleonic wars was signed. "[[Wikipedia:Conoy|Conoy]]" is a Native American tribe, also known as the Piscataway. Both are pretty obscure.
* [[Laura Roslin]]: "[[Wikipedia:Roslin Institute|Roslin Institute]]" is where Dolly the Sheep was cloned! Roslin is a town in Scotland.
* [[Anastasia Dualla]]: The Greek word ''[[Wikipedia:anastasia|anastasia]]'' translates to "resurrection". It's also not an uncommon Greek and Russian name. "Dualla" appears to be made up.
* [[Tom Zarek]]: "Thomas" may be a biblical reference, although strictly speaking it isn't a biblical name (the word we translate as "Thomas" is actually an epithet meaning "twin"). It's certainly a common enough English name. "Zarek" appears to be made up.
* [[Billy Keikeya]]: "Keikeya" appears to be made up.

==Accents==

Most characters speak with a [[Wikipedia:General American|Standard American]] accent, with some exceptions.

===English Accent===
Two characters speak with the [[Wikipedia:Received Pronunciation|Received Pronunciation]], Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] of Caprica and ship's medic [[Layne Ishay]]. Other characters from Caprica do not share this accent.

===Canadian Accent===
Occassionally when Col. [[Saul Tigh]] is shouting or barking out orders, he exhibits a faint canadian accent. [[Michael Hogan]] is a noted Canadian actor, and on the show his speech is usually indistinguishable from Standard American English, but observant fans can occassionally detect a trace of an accent.

===Spanish Accent===
[[Giana]], a woman rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], spoke with a Spanish accent, and inquired after the whereabouts of her husband, who she stated was "stationed on Gemenon". Her place of origin is unclear, but no other characters from either Caprica, [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], or anywhere else have shared this accent. The actress, Lymari Nadal, is from Puerto Rico.

===Aerelon Accent===
In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", Baltar noted that Sharon Valerii spoke with a trace of an [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] accent. The actress who portrays her, Grace Park, is fluent in both English and Korean, but speaks Standard American English without a foreign accent.

===Kiwi Accent===
The reporter [[D'anna Biers]] speaks with a Kiwi/New Zealand accent (this is actually the accent that actress [[Lucy Lawless]] speaks with when off screen, because she is from New Zealand). However, the same episode revealed that D'anna is actually a [[Cylon agent]], and another copy of D'anna on Cylon-occupied Caprica does ''not'' speak with this accent, but a Standard American one. This seems to imply that D'anna's entire personality was for show, and that the Cylons seem to use more standardized pronunciation when amongst themselves ([[Final Cut]]; this subtle hint made by ''not'' using her Kiwi accent is also mentioned in David Eick's video blog). However, in her subsequent appearance in "[[Downloaded]]", D'anna/Number Three continues to speak with a Kiwi accent on Caprica (probably because Lawless wanted to keep using her normal Kiwi accent, after her character was turned into a recurring role).

==Liturgy==
During the funeral service at the end of the Mini-series, Priest [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in a foreign language. It is recognizable as a common Sanskrit prayer, found in Part I, Chapter III, Verse 28 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

:{|
| '''Devanāgarī''' || '''Transliteration''' || '''Translation'''
|-
| अस्तो मा सद् गमय || ásato ma sád gamaya || Lead me from unreal to Real
|-
| तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय || támaso ma jyótir gamaya || Lead me from darkness to Light
|-
| मृत्योन् मा अमृतं गमय् || mrtyór mamrtam gamaya || Lead me from death to Immortality
|}

Although the lyrics are identifiable, it should be noted that the actress's performance is closer to the chanting of biblical Hebrew, and does not resemble the traditional melody.

== Footnotes ==
# {{note|wireless}} This usage is not entirely unknown in Earth-bound English. As a synonym for radio or radiotelegraphy, it's more common in Britsh usage, according to [http://www.m-w.com/ Merriam-Webster]. It's also the source of the prefix 'Wi' in 'WiFi' and other similar wireless data standards now common.

Language in the Twelve Colonies

2006-03-16T05:01:22Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

{{Twelve Colonies Series}}
English, or some language that is universally translated into it (à la [[Wikipedia:Westron|Tolkien]]) is standard. Loanwords from foreign languages ("fascist", "karma", "esprit de corps" etc.) occur with normal frequency, as do chronologically enigmatic borrowings such as the [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Columbia]]''. Most religious terms are explicitly shared with ancient greek beliefs (either antecedent to or descendent from them).

==Vocabulary==

===Anachronisms===
[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] uses many terms from modern day naval aviation, which appear somewhat anachronistic but also lend the show a flavor of realistic jargon. These include:
*[[Combat Air Patrol]]
*[[Commander Air Group]]
*Planes
:'''Adama:''' You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly. ([[Litmus]])

===Ersatz===
In contrast to its [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|predecessor]], the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' employs relatively little in the way of ersatz vocabulary. It does employ a few terms outside of a normal american english vocabulary, mostly military jargon. These are mixed in haphazardly with the real-life naval aviation terms above.

*[[Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Constellation]] - [[Wikipedia:NATO phonetic alphabet|Charlie]] (As used in the sense of radio alphabetic code, e.g.: "Alpha, Bravo, Constellation".)
*[[Dradis]] - [[Wikipedia:RADAR|Radar]]
*[[Fumarella leaf]] - [[Wikipedia:Tobacco|Tobacco]]
*[[Frak]] - A bowdlerized version of "Fuck" (c.f. "[[Wikipedia:Frell|Frell]]" (Farscape), "[[Wikipedia:Frag|Frag]]" (Babylon 5), "[[Wikipedia:Smeg|Smeg]]" (Red Dwarf))
*[[G-4]] - [[Wikipedia: C-4 (explosive)|C-4]]
*[[Krypter]] - [[Wikipedia:Mayday|Mayday]]
*[[Morpha]] - [[Wikipedia:Morphine|Morphine]]
*[[Serisone]] - [[Wikipedia:prednisone|Prednisone]]
*[[Wireless]] - [[Wikipedia:Radio|Radio]]{{ref|wireless}}

===Invented Terminology===
As all science fiction shows must, Battlestar Galactica has a set of vocabulary referring to technologies and other items not shared with the real world.

*[[Ambrosia]] - a bright green alcoholic beverage{{ref|ambrosia}}
*[[Carom]] - the angle above or below the XY plane of a vessel, perpendicular to [[Wikipedia:Bearing (navigation)|bearing]] (c.f. "Mark" (Star Trek))
*[[Chamalla]] - an [[Wikipedia:Entheogen|entheogen]] used by priests
*[[Red Line]]

===Enigmas===

Language in ''Battlestar Galactica'' have terms whose origins are a curiosity due to chronology or uniqueness to the real-world Earth that likely wouldn't have a parallel of the same name in the Twelve Colonies. See [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Pre-History|an interpretation of the origin of humanity on Kobol]] that could support the derivation of these terms.

* ''[[Columbia]]'': This battlestar name's origin is strange since its popular Earth derivation comes from Christopher Columbus, a man unlikely to have existed in the Twelve Colonies.

===Honorifics===
Although civilians use the honorific "Madam" or it's shortened form "ma'am", in the Colonial military all superior officers are referred to as "Sir", regardless of gender. According to RDM's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs blog] on January 20th, 2006, the series follows the system established in "[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan|Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]]", where the term "sir" has become gender-neutral in military usage. Thus, [[Laura Roslin]] is refered to as "Madam President" or "ma'am" in a civilian context, but in her capacity as Commander-in-Chief, she is always addressed as "sir".

===Names===
Many characters have names that are a composite of an ordinary English name and a name of Biblical or Classical significance, while some few have names that are both references, and some have names part of which are simply made up. Again, it remains an enigma whether these should be thought of as translations for the audience's benefit; whether we are expected to believe that our Earth-bound names derive from a common root with Colonial names, both originating on Kobol; or whether Earth is intended to be the true origin, and if legend is correct, eventual point of return for the thirteenth "tribe".

No attempt is made to speculate as the intended meanings of the references cited below. It is even quite possible that none of these are intended by the producers as anything other than interesting sounding names based on words they found in the dictionary!

* [[William Adama|William]] and [[Lee Adama]]: "Adama" is Hebrew for "Earth", from which "Adam", the Biblical First Man, derives his name. Lee's callsign "Apollo" is of course a reference to the Greek (and apparently, Kobolan) god.
* [[Richard Adar]]: "[[Wikipedia:Adar|Adar]]" is a month in the Jewish lunar calendar still in use today. It coincides roughly with the Gregorian month of March.
* [[Kara Thrace]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]]" was a Greek city.
* [[Galen Tyrol]]: "[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]]" was a famous Greek healer, the source of much Mediaeval medical knowledge (and misinformation). "[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]]" is a region that spans the border of Austria and Italy.
* [[Gaius Baltar]]: "Gaius" was the ''[[Wikipedia:praenomen|praenomen]]'' of the man we commonly call [[Wikipedia:Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]]. "Baltar" was made up by [[Glen A. Larson]].
* [[Sharon Valerii]]: "Sharon" is Hebrew for forest, although it may have been chosen solely for the fact that it's a normal-sounding English woman's name. The [[Wikipedia:Valerius|gens Valeria]] is one of the longest-running families in the history of the [[Wikipedia:Roman Empire|Roman Empire]]. Curiously, "valerii" is the masculine plural form.
* [[Karl Agathon]]: "[[Wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]]" was an Athenian poet, a friend of Eurpides and Plato.
* [[Hera]]/Isis: "[[Wikipedia:Hera|Hera]]" was a Greek goddess, the wife of Zeus. "[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]" an Egyptian goddess, the wife of Horus in early mythology; the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus later. This is one of the few Egyptian references in the new series.
* [[Helena Cain]]: "[[Wikipedia:Helena|Helena]]" is a common enough name, but is also a possible reference to Helen of Troy. "[[Wikipedia:Cain|Cain]]" in the Old Testament is the first murderer.
* [[Aaron Doral]]: "[[Wikipedia:Aaron|Aaron]]" is a Biblical Hebrew name, the older brother of [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]].

Uncertain references:
* [[Leoben Conoy]]: "[[Wikipedia:Leoben|Leoben]]" is an Austrian town where a preliminary peace in the Napoleonic wars was signed. "[[Wikipedia:Conoy|Conoy]]" is a Native American tribe, also known as the Piscataway. Both are pretty obscure.
* [[Laura Roslin]]: "[[Wikipedia:Roslin Institute|Roslin Institute]]" is where Dolly the Sheep was cloned! Roslin is a town in Scotland.
* [[Anastasia Dualla]]: The Greek word ''[[Wikipedia:anastasia|anastasia]]'' translates to "resurrection". It's also not an uncommon Greek and Russian name. "Dualla" appears to be made up.
* [[Tom Zarek]]: "Thomas" may be a biblical reference, although strictly speaking it isn't a biblical name (the word we translate as "Thomas" is actually an epithet meaning "twin"). It's certainly a common enough English name. "Zarek" appears to be made up.
* [[Billy Keikeya]]: "Keikeya" appears to be made up.

==Accents==

Most characters speak with a [[Wikipedia:General American|Standard American]] accent, with some exceptions.

===English Accent===
Two characters speak with the [[Wikipedia:Received Pronunciation|Received Pronunciation]], Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] of Caprica and ship's medic [[Layne Ishay]]. Other characters from Caprica do not share this accent.

===Canadian Accent===
Occassionally when Col. [[Saul Tigh]] is shouting or barking out orders, he exhibits a faint canadian accent. [[Michael Hogan]] is a noted Canadian actor, and on the show his speech is usually indistinguishable from Standard American English, but observant fans can occassionally detect a trace of an accent.

===Spanish Accent===
[[Giana]], a woman rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], spoke with a Spanish accent, and inquired after the whereabouts of her husband, who she stated was "stationed on Gemenon". Her place of origin is unclear, but no other characters from either Caprica, [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], or anywhere else have shared this accent. The actress, Lymari Nadal, is from Puerto Rico.

===Aerelon Accent===
In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", Baltar noted that Sharon Valerii spoke with a trace of an [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] accent. The actress who portrays her, Grace Park, is fluent in both English and Korean, but speaks Standard American English without a foreign accent.

===Kiwi Accent===
The reporter [[D'anna Biers]] speaks with a Kiwi/New Zealand accent (this is actually the accent that actress [[Lucy Lawless]] speaks with when off screen, because she is from New Zealand). However, the same episode revealed that D'anna is actually a [[Cylon agent]], and another copy of D'anna on Cylon-occupied Caprica does ''not'' speak with this accent, but a Standard American one. This seems to imply that D'anna's entire personality was for show, and that the Cylons seem to use more standardized pronunciation when amongst themselves ([[Final Cut]]; this subtle hint made by ''not'' using her Kiwi accent is also mentioned in David Eick's video blog). However, in her subsequent appearance in "[[Downloaded]]", D'anna/Number Three continues to speak with a Kiwi accent on Caprica (probably because Lawless wanted to keep using her normal Kiwi accent, after her character was turned into a recurring role).

==Liturgy==
During the funeral service at the end of the Mini-series, Priest [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in a foreign language. It is recognizable as a common Sanskrit prayer, found in Part I, Chapter III, Verse 28 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

:{|
| '''Devanāgarī''' || '''Transliteration''' || '''Translation'''
|-
| अस्तो मा सद् गमय || ásato ma sád gamaya || Lead me from unreal to Real
|-
| तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय || támaso ma jyótir gamaya || Lead me from darkness to Light
|-
| मृत्योन् मा अमृतं गमय् || mrtyór mamrtam gamaya || Lead me from death to Immortality
|}

Although the lyrics are identifiable, it should be noted that the actress's performance is closer to the chanting of biblical Hebrew, and does not resemble the traditional melody.

== Footnotes ==
# {{note|wireless}} This usage is not entirely unknown in Earth-bound English. As a synonym for radio or radiotelegraphy, it's more common in Britsh usage, according to [http://www.m-w.com/ Merriam-Webster]. It's also the source of the prefix 'Wi' in 'WiFi' and other similar wireless data standards now common.

Language in the Twelve Colonies

2006-03-16T05:00:54Z

UncleMikey: /* Names */

{{Twelve Colonies Series}}
English, or some language that is universally translated into it (à la [[Wikipedia:Westron|Tolkien]]) is standard. Loanwords from foreign languages ("fascist", "karma", "esprit de corps" etc.) occur with normal frequency, as do chronologically enigmatic borrowings such as the [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Columbia]]''. Most religious terms are explicitly shared with ancient greek beliefs (either antecedent to or descendent from them).

==Vocabulary==

===Anachronisms===
[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] uses many terms from modern day naval aviation, which appear somewhat anachronistic but also lend the show a flavor of realistic jargon. These include:
*[[Combat Air Patrol]]
*[[Commander Air Group]]
*Planes
:'''Adama:''' You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly. ([[Litmus]])

===Ersatz===
In contrast to its [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|predecessor]], the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' employs relatively little in the way of ersatz vocabulary. It does employ a few terms outside of a normal american english vocabulary, mostly military jargon. These are mixed in haphazardly with the real-life naval aviation terms above.

*[[Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Constellation]] - [[Wikipedia:NATO phonetic alphabet|Charlie]] (As used in the sense of radio alphabetic code, e.g.: "Alpha, Bravo, Constellation".)
*[[Dradis]] - [[Wikipedia:RADAR|Radar]]
*[[Fumarella leaf]] - [[Wikipedia:Tobacco|Tobacco]]
*[[Frak]] - A bowdlerized version of "Fuck" (c.f. "[[Wikipedia:Frell|Frell]]" (Farscape), "[[Wikipedia:Frag|Frag]]" (Babylon 5), "[[Wikipedia:Smeg|Smeg]]" (Red Dwarf))
*[[G-4]] - [[Wikipedia: C-4 (explosive)|C-4]]
*[[Krypter]] - [[Wikipedia:Mayday|Mayday]]
*[[Morpha]] - [[Wikipedia:Morphine|Morphine]]
*[[Serisone]] - [[Wikipedia:prednisone|Prednisone]]
*[[Wireless]] - [[Wikipedia:Radio|Radio]]{{ref|wireless}}

===Invented Terminology===
As all science fiction shows must, Battlestar Galactica has a set of vocabulary referring to technologies and other items not shared with the real world.

*[[Ambrosia]] - a bright green alcoholic beverage{{ref|ambrosia}}
*[[Carom]] - the angle above or below the XY plane of a vessel, perpendicular to [[Wikipedia:Bearing (navigation)|bearing]] (c.f. "Mark" (Star Trek))
*[[Chamalla]] - an [[Wikipedia:Entheogen|entheogen]] used by priests
*[[Red Line]]

===Enigmas===

Language in ''Battlestar Galactica'' have terms whose origins are a curiosity due to chronology or uniqueness to the real-world Earth that likely wouldn't have a parallel of the same name in the Twelve Colonies. See [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Pre-History|an interpretation of the origin of humanity on Kobol]] that could support the derivation of these terms.

* ''[[Columbia]]'': This battlestar name's origin is strange since its popular Earth derivation comes from Christopher Columbus, a man unlikely to have existed in the Twelve Colonies.

===Honorifics===
Although civilians use the honorific "Madam" or it's shortened form "ma'am", in the Colonial military all superior officers are referred to as "Sir", regardless of gender. According to RDM's [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs blog] on January 20th, 2006, the series follows the system established in "[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan|Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]]", where the term "sir" has become gender-neutral in military usage. Thus, [[Laura Roslin]] is refered to as "Madam President" or "ma'am" in a civilian context, but in her capacity as Commander-in-Chief, she is always addressed as "sir".

===Names===
Many characters have names that are a composite of an ordinary English name and a name of Biblical or Classical significance, while some few have names that are both references, and some have names part of which are simply made up. Again, it remains an enigma whether these should be thought of as translations for the audience's benefit; whether we are expected to believe that our Earth-bound names derive from a common root with Colonial names, both originating on Kobol; or whether Earth is intended to be the true origin, and if legend is correct, eventual point of return for the thirteenth "tribe".

No attempt is made to speculate as the intended meanings of the references cited below. It is even quite possible that none of these are intended by the producers as anything other than interesting sounding names based on words they found in the dictionary!

* [[William Adama|William]] and [[Lee Adama]]: "Adama" is Hebrew for "Earth", from which "Adam", the Biblical First Man, derives his name. Lee's callsign "Apollo" is of course a reference to the Greek (and apparently, Kobolan) god.
* [[Richard Adar]]: "[[Wikipedia:Adar|Adar]]" is a month in the Jewish lunar calendar still in use today. It coincides roughly with the Gregorian month of March.
* [[Kara Thrace]]: "[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]]" was a Greek city.
* [[Galen Tyrol]]: "[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]]" was a famous Greek healer, the source of much Mediaeval medical knowledge (and misinformation). "[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]]" is a region that spans the border of Austria and Italy.
* [[Gaius Baltar]]: "Gaius" was the ''[[Wikipedia:praenomen|praenomen]]'' of the man we commonly call [[Wikipedia:Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]]. "Baltar" was made up by [[Glen A. Larson]].
* [[Sharon Valerii]]: "Sharon" is Hebrew for forest, although it may have been chosen solely for the fact that it's a normal-sounding English woman's name. The [[Wikipedia:Valerius|gens Valeria]] is one of the longest-running families in the history of the [[Wikipedia:Roman Empire|Roman Empire]]. Curiously, "valerii" is the masculine plural form.
* [[Karl Agathon]]: "[[Wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]]" was an Athenian poet, a friend of Eurpides and Plato.
* [[Hera]]/Isis: "[[Wikipedia:Hera|Hera]]" was a Greek goddess, the wife of Zeus. "[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]" an Egyptian goddess, the wife of Horus in early mythology; the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus later. This is one of the few Egyptian references in the new series.
* [[Helena Cain]]: "[[Wikipedia:Helena|Helena]]" is a common enough name, but is also a possible reference to Helen of Troy. "[[Wikipedia:Cain|Cain]]" in the Old Testament is the first murderer.
* [[Aaron Doral]]: "[[Wikipedia:Aaron|Aaron]]" is a Biblical Hebrew name, the older brother of [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]].

Uncertain references:
* [[Leoben Conoy]]: "[[Wikipedia:Leoben|Leoben]]" is an Austrian town here a preliminary peace in the Napoleonic wars was signed. "[[Wikipedia:Conoy|Conoy]]" is a Native American tribe, also known as the Piscataway. Both are pretty obscure.
* [[Laura Roslin]]: "[[Wikipedia:Roslin Institute|Roslin Institute]]" is where Dolly the Sheep was cloned! Roslin is a town in Scotland.
* [[Anastasia Dualla]]: The Greek word ''[[Wikipedia:anastasia|anastasia]]'' translates to "resurrection". It's also not an uncommon Greek and Russian name. "Dualla" appears to be made up.
* [[Tom Zarek]]: "Thomas" may be a biblical reference, although strictly speaking it isn't a biblical name (the word we translate as "Thomas" is actually an epithet meaning "twin"). It's certainly a common enough English name. "Zarek" appears to be made up.
* [[Billy Keikeya]]: "Keikeya" appears to be made up.

==Accents==

Most characters speak with a [[Wikipedia:General American|Standard American]] accent, with some exceptions.

===English Accent===
Two characters speak with the [[Wikipedia:Received Pronunciation|Received Pronunciation]], Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] of Caprica and ship's medic [[Layne Ishay]]. Other characters from Caprica do not share this accent.

===Canadian Accent===
Occassionally when Col. [[Saul Tigh]] is shouting or barking out orders, he exhibits a faint canadian accent. [[Michael Hogan]] is a noted Canadian actor, and on the show his speech is usually indistinguishable from Standard American English, but observant fans can occassionally detect a trace of an accent.

===Spanish Accent===
[[Giana]], a woman rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], spoke with a Spanish accent, and inquired after the whereabouts of her husband, who she stated was "stationed on Gemenon". Her place of origin is unclear, but no other characters from either Caprica, [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], or anywhere else have shared this accent. The actress, Lymari Nadal, is from Puerto Rico.

===Aerelon Accent===
In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", Baltar noted that Sharon Valerii spoke with a trace of an [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] accent. The actress who portrays her, Grace Park, is fluent in both English and Korean, but speaks Standard American English without a foreign accent.

===Kiwi Accent===
The reporter [[D'anna Biers]] speaks with a Kiwi/New Zealand accent (this is actually the accent that actress [[Lucy Lawless]] speaks with when off screen, because she is from New Zealand). However, the same episode revealed that D'anna is actually a [[Cylon agent]], and another copy of D'anna on Cylon-occupied Caprica does ''not'' speak with this accent, but a Standard American one. This seems to imply that D'anna's entire personality was for show, and that the Cylons seem to use more standardized pronunciation when amongst themselves ([[Final Cut]]; this subtle hint made by ''not'' using her Kiwi accent is also mentioned in David Eick's video blog). However, in her subsequent appearance in "[[Downloaded]]", D'anna/Number Three continues to speak with a Kiwi accent on Caprica (probably because Lawless wanted to keep using her normal Kiwi accent, after her character was turned into a recurring role).

==Liturgy==
During the funeral service at the end of the Mini-series, Priest [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in a foreign language. It is recognizable as a common Sanskrit prayer, found in Part I, Chapter III, Verse 28 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

:{|
| '''Devanāgarī''' || '''Transliteration''' || '''Translation'''
|-
| अस्तो मा सद् गमय || ásato ma sád gamaya || Lead me from unreal to Real
|-
| तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय || támaso ma jyótir gamaya || Lead me from darkness to Light
|-
| मृत्योन् मा अमृतं गमय् || mrtyór mamrtam gamaya || Lead me from death to Immortality
|}

Although the lyrics are identifiable, it should be noted that the actress's performance is closer to the chanting of biblical Hebrew, and does not resemble the traditional melody.

== Footnotes ==
# {{note|wireless}} This usage is not entirely unknown in Earth-bound English. As a synonym for radio or radiotelegraphy, it's more common in Britsh usage, according to [http://www.m-w.com/ Merriam-Webster]. It's also the source of the prefix 'Wi' in 'WiFi' and other similar wireless data standards now common.