Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-02-15T18:33:10Z

Todd: /* pre-programmed viewing mechanism? */

== 7th squadron ==

Did anyone else see the 7th squadron logo behind Helo?
[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 16:12, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:Sure did. I'm sure someone may get a screencap of it soon and note it on [[Squadrons of Galactica]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:19, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

: The was a good read.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Not sure if it was Fisher, but I think he's one of the marines for sure --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:05, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm pretty sure Dee says "Sarge?" after he gets shot. I could be wrong though. -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::Nooo! That's a shame, because the guy that plays Fischer is friends with Tahmoh. I wouldn't want to be the guy breaking it to him that his character was getting killed off (and in such an inconsequential way, to boot). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:45, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:::I edited the line but left the implication that they were going to box her for the talk page. If I remember, I think it has already been implied on earlier episode summaries that the Threes may be boxed - it goes without saying on this page. {{unsigned|Saiboogu}}

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: It looked like there were other Cavils doing the same thing to all the other Threes in the wide shot that ended the episode. It is rather interesting that Cavil's normally not among the models who participates in a post-resurrection midwifing, yet he's the only one there when a boxing takes place, no? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:04, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:To me it looked like a lot of Cavil-activity too. If (as many people here believe) Cavil is Number Two, then his actions in this episode make perfect sense. He's the one who confronts D'Anna in the temple and almost kills her, he's the one who proposes boxing the Threes in the first place, and he's the one who ends up actually doing it. If Cavil is either Two or Four, he'd be the representative of the remaining Cylons and it would make sense for him to go on a boxing spree. Also, if Cavil is Two, he wouldn't want his 'leadership' status (as far as he has any; he didn't protest against the majority decision to attack the Colonies) threatened by the revelation of Number One (who I believe to be among the Final Five). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:39, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I gotta get me a bigger tv.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: Fleet-D'Anna from Final Cut interacted with Roslin, Adama, Tigh, and Lee. As for Downloaded/Final Five-D'Anna, it's just been Baltar, Doc Cottle and Anders, who she was a righteous bitch to and nearly killed by the way. --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:: I thought Fleet-D'Anna was Final Five-D'anna --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I think it's pretty obvious that the D'anna who found Hera and searched for the Five is the D'anna we know from Final Cut. Caprica-Three has a rather nastier temperament, both in Downloaded and in Occuprice. It's possible the Three who defies the basestar command in Rapture is Caprica-Three as well. I believe only one Number Three is referred to as D'anna and that's Final Cut D'anna. Note that even the other Cylons refer to her by that name. Normally, Cylons only seem to bestow individual names on a Cylon who has accomplished something significant. (For example, while D'anna mentioned speaking to a Simon, this was so Baltar would know who she's talking about.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::: Yeah, that was the clincher for me, when the other Cylons called her D'Anna. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:19, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::: The D'Anna that's been focused on recently is the one who was in Downloaded, see her flashbacks in [[Hero]] and the response from Bradley Thompson ([[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]]). She's probably called D'Anna because Baltar calls her that. The reporter D'Anna from Final Cut was in the fleet at the time of Downloaded, so they're not one and the same. Messiah-D'Anna may be the one shown at the end of Final Cut. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::::I transcribed the conversation, I'm not sure about "it's a trick before I die", the line was barely audible.
:::::::D'anna: "The final five, is it really you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You."
:::::::D'anna: "Forgive me I ... I had no idea."
:::::::''transitions from D'anna holding mystery figure's hand in the vision to D'anna holding Balthar's hand in the temple''
:::::::Baltar: "No idea about what? What did you see? Who was it?"
:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Blatar: "What was? Tell me am I one of you."
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Baltar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me I have have to know. Tell me I have to know did you see my face? Am I a cylon?"
:::::::Baltar: "God ... it's a trick before I die."
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home mister president."
::::::It was pretty heavily implied that it was Baltar, although the "forgive me, I have no idea" line would also be consistant with [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]]. She could also be apologising for any as of yet unmentioned offscreen actions against any known or as of yet unintroduced character on Cylon occupied [[New Caprica]] or any of the Cylon-occupied Colonies. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:16, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::: Actually what Baltar said at the end was:

:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Baltar: "What was? Tell me! Am I one of you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Baltar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me, stay wi... I have have to know! Tell me! I have to know! Did you see my face!?! Am I a Cylon!?! Frak!"
:::::::''Baltar steps over D'anna's body and onto the mandala:''
:::::::Baltar: "God please tell me the truth before I die."
:::::::''Someone sneaks up to Baltar and puts a gun to the back of his head''
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home Mister President."
:::::::
:::::::At least that was what he said in close captioning. I did hear something like "its a trick" at the same time. Easter egg? And his name is "Baltar" not "Balthar". [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 17:07, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::::::::"Tell me the truth" makes more sense. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:04, 25 January 2007 (CST)

::Fleet-Three from "Final Cut" can't possibly be Messiah-Three - during Three's first recreational suicide in "[[Hero]]", she flashes back to a scene from "Final Cut" set on Caprica. This means she's the same Three as the one watching the documentary in that episode, and not the one who was on ''Galactica'' at that time. She also flashes back to her death at the hands of Caprica-Six in "[[Downloaded]]", so we know that they are also the same character. Since it doesn't make sense for Messiah-Three to apologize for any actions taken by Fleet-Three, I think we can safely rule her out. That leaves the humans interacted with by Messiah-Three to be considered. There are only seven candidates:
::*Sam Anders - Tried to kill him on Caprica ([[Downloaded]])
::*Tucker "Duck" - Blew her up at the NCP graduation ceremony ([[Occupation]])
::*Dodona Selloi - Consulted her regarding Hera's fate ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Cottle - Discussed Hera's cremation ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Felix Gaeta - Was present when she, Caprica-Six and Baltar evacuated Colonial One, but did not interact with him ([[Exodus, Part II]])
::*Denny "Bulldog" Novacek ([[Hero]]) - Interrogated by an anonymous "sick" Three on a Basestar.
::*Gaius Baltar
::In evaluating these, we should establish whether Messiah-Three has done anything to them worth apologizing for, and consider whether story logistics allow them to be a Cylon. Three has no reason to apologize to Duck, Selloi, Cottle or Gaeta, narrowing the field to just Baltar, Bulldog, and Anders.
::From a storytelling standpoint, Baltar can't possibly be a Cylon. They've teased it so much that there's no dramatic payoff if they reveal it now - it would be a total anticlimax. It also ruins his character's dramatic function, since Baltar's role is to be the guilt-ridden traitor. His character can't function as a Cylon. If James Callis ever intends to leave the show, revealing him as one of the final five would be a good way to write him out, but in the near-term, it's just not a possibility.
::Bulldog would be a completely uninteresting choice (since we know nothing about him and have no emotional investment in his character). Additionally, the actor will probably be difficult to book in the future, and the character has mitigating factors (a long military career with verified non-Cylons Bill Adama and Saul Tigh).
::This leaves Anders as the only possibility. Messiah-Three certainly has grounds to apologize to him, and he has no real mitigating factors - no history prior to his time with the Caprica Buccaneers, and (notably) no children with his wife, Kara Thrace. It also explains his remarkable ability to withstand and quickly recover from walking pneumonia ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::Love the analysis. Who you narrow it down to makes sense. Anders is just a goofy guy, though. I personally find the Bulldog theory more interesting because of his connection to Adama and Tigh. If we see the character pop up in upcoming credits that might be a sign that they're filling out his backstory. Until then, though, maybe Anders will take on more shades, or the writers will have a dramatic twist that'll make Baltar a more convincing choice.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:53, 25 January 2007 (CST)
I think you're making a leap on the apology thing. The apology may not be for something that Three did to the Final Five model in question, but that she was sorry she didn't know that that person was a cylon and/or a member of the final five. Make sense? --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:13, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:It's possible, but it would be bad writing if that were the case. I'm making the (perhaps misguided) assumption that the writers respect our intelligence, and wouldn't give us a clue we can't use. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:23, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I respectfully disagree that it's bad writing. Haven't you ever been in a situation that required you to say "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was you." I may be wrong and I don't think the speculation as to what she meant is that plain. I think it could go either way.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:36, 25 January 2007 (CST)
Is is possible that the person she was apologizing to was the hybrid? [[User:Aspshortjock|Aspshortjock]] 16:29, 25 January 2007 (CST)[[User:aspshortjock|aspshortjock]]
:I don't think so. If, as I believe RDM describes her in the Torn podcast, the Hybrid is an intermediate step between mechanical and humanoid models then she is not a humanoid model. Also, she doesn't have legs and couldn't be standing on the dais. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:41, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Boxing the Threes ==

There is discussion around here about just how they boxed the entire Three line, so here's my idea:
*Send all your Cavils to the Resurrection Ship's Three Deck.
*Reprogram the Centurions to forget the Threes are Cylons.
*Have the Centurions fire upon all Threes they can find in the fleet. (Resurrection Ship's gonna work overtime on that)
*Have your Cavils box the downloaded Threes.
Any alternative ideas, anyone? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my one main idea, based on looking at what happened once D'Anna saw the final five.

*One of the consequences of her seeing the final five was that the experience would overload her Cylon brain. Take note that her eyes glazed over and her nose started to bleed, inferring that there was some sort of hemmorage occuring, probably from the brain area. Since it has been shown many times throughout the series that the Cylon models amongst themselves can communicate with each other on a near telepathic level, whether it is for voting on leadership decisions or sharing memories. I believe it is entirely possible that once D'anna saw the final five, the shared memory of that forbidden knowledge was transmitted to all the other Threes, thus resulting in their own deaths as well.

When Cavil talked with D'Anna and told her to look at all the "damage" she had caused, he seems to be talking about all the other resurrection chambers around her. This implied to me that the damage that occurred was that every Three died at the same time & thus time and energy had to be spent to resurrect them all. I take this to be the final breaking point for the rest of the Cylon leadership as resurrecting an entire line of cylons would have taxed the resources they currently had, plus now that all the Threes have this shared knowledge of the final five, it is too dangerous to keep them around, thus the final boxing.

That's my 2 cents. I understand how the other explanations can work and may very well be one of those. However, considering how often RDM and crew bring in some religious and spiritual twists every so often into their stories, what happened to D'Anna could be akin to how some religious teachings bring up the idea that once a normal human being looks upon the face of a god, their penalty is immediate death. Even in the RDM podcast, he referred to the cause of the boxing to the occurence that they finally took a bite of the forbidden knowledge, a reference to the Fall of Man account in the Judeo-Christian teachings.

Either case, I don't think the Cylons did much to "box" all the Threes. The Threes died because of D'anna's encounter with the final five and thus made it much easier to box all of them as they're resurrected. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible that The Threes simply accepted their faith? After all they were able to get a ship on the planet they had no further reason to disagree with the other cylons.

Also we see some people walking in the "boxing chamber" when Brother Cavil leaves. Who are they?--[[User:R4p70r|R4p70r]] 14:14, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:The premise on the Three's multiple resurrections is based on a false assumption: The Cylons have a collective knowledgebase where information can be voluntarily shared to anyone of any model. However, unless [[Sharon Agathon]] was lying (which is unlikely, otherwise the Cylons know all of the Colonial tactical data they care to know through her now), this is not compulsory, so anything that D'Anna-Three learned may not necessarily have been sent to all other Threes. This goes against the point that she was dying, which requires the downloading circuitry, and the fact that the Cylons are NOT the "Borg" of Star Trek; they are not a "hive mind" that are continually connected (although models can relate data within each other, such as in the basestar command consensus). I'm all for the Centurion-shoot-up theory myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:33, 25 January 2007 (CST)

::The other figures are Cavil copies boxing the other Threes, it's mentioned in the podcast. [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:12, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Removed analysis ==

* Battlestar Wiki contributors confirmed the similarity between the symbolic Eye-of-Jupiter image in the Temple of Five and the painting seen in Kara Thrace's old apartment ([[Valley of Darkness]]) prior to this episode (see [[Talk:The Eye of Jupiter#WTF_moment|this talk page]]).
** According to the [[Podcast:Rapture|RDM podcast]], the image in Kara's apartment was a mandala that the actress had decided to paint before the actual shooting occurred.

These lines were removed by [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] ([[User_talk:Peter Farago|Talk]]), saying: "''Remove self aggrandizement. Nobody cares who conjectured what.''".

I personally think both would be better off as separate bullet points in ''[[Rapture#Notes|Notes]]'' rather than ''[[Rapture#Analysis|Analysis]]'', but I do care. The second point is factual information that simply belongs here (I readded it). The first, well... I think deciding whether it's allowed to take pride in our own analysis is up to the admins (could you respond here, please?). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:39, 25 January 2007 (CST)

:We had this same debate regarding the name of the [[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]], which Merv arrived at before RDM's podcast revealed that the battle actually was inspired by the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. The Merovingian wanted credit for it, but I argued at that time that the assignation of credit was irrelevant - I understand that you want to take pride in our community, but doing so is inappropriate inasmuch as it violates our NPOV policy (we certainly don't assign credit like that to non-wiki members), and isn't going to be a topic of interest to a viewer perusing the episode guide even a week from now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:ditto. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm to blame for the entry; it's not at all crucial, and if it violates NPOV, it should be removed. The Talk page of the article has the off-air kudos to the contributors, in any case. Finding this type of stuff is part of the fun of using the wiki, so at least the talk page gives the "fun" and the credit to the contributors, and the article can stay neutral. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:I agree that the self-reference to BSWiki is irrelevant, but the information from the podcast could indeed be added under Notes --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::[[Rapture#Notes|It's already there]] --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:43, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== "Mandala" ==

I've got a bit of an issue with the continued use of the term "mandala when referring to the carving in the temple and to Starbuck's painting. Definitionally, a "mandala" is "a geometric figure representing the universe in Hindu and Buddhist symbolism." While the design bears some resemblence to a galaxy/universe, there is no proof that that is what it is. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:They did call it that in the episode, didn't they?
::'''Adama:''' I think the Chief is right. I think the supernova does look like the mandala inside the temple.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's correct, they do call it a mandala. Maybe you (BklynBruzer) can add a [[Rapture#Notes|note]] on how the ep's usage of the word "mandala" is incorrect. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:30, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::::Please read in detail the definition of [[w:mandala|mandala on Wikipedia]]. It is possible that the Thirteenth Tribe created the symbol for meditative use (it ''is'' in a Temple, after all). Mandalas don't have to be used or designed in a specific way except in a circular format, and it appears that the symbol adheres to the modern practice. Mandalas don't have to look like anything except for what it depicts or inspires, and it may relate to an ''element'' or ''concept'' of the universe, not a specific celestial object (although this one does). The fact that the symbol is all over the place gives it significance, but I feel we should stick to its modern application. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::Ah, if the episode itself called it a mandala, then consider my complaint dropped. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:34, 25 January 2007 (CST)

:RDM's podcast also refers to it as a mandala. Maybe when the actress had originally created it, they thought of it as a mandala and not a supernova symbol. Either case, I say that the word be used in the main article because at the very least, Adama uses that word in the show. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== pre-programmed viewing mechanism? ==

I have a problem with this statement in the analysis section.
:"Because D'Anna recognized one of the figures in white which must have been programmed into the viewing mechanism 4000 years previously, it can be concluded that there is some substantial connection between whomever the Temple of Five was dedicated to and the Cylons."
It's not necessarily a pre-programmed viewing mechanism. We don't even know whether the device was malfunctioning or working as designed. All we know is that when Three stepped onto the mandala, had a vision of the Final Five and then died of what appears to be a brain hemmorhage. I'll edit the comment in question. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:02, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I agree. It does assume that the modality of transmission-if that is the proper term for it-is a mechanism of some sort. In the make believe world of ''Battlestar Galactica'' such phenomena as visions and precognition could exist however we may feel about them in the real world. Just like in say the TV show ''Smallville'' (which is about a young Clark Kent in his pre Superman days) magic and ghost are real. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:45, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::Maybe it's not the temple that's preprogrammed, but the Cylons themselves? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 07:51, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::There may never be enough information, with the Threes all gone, to discern how the mechanism worked. We've seen stuff like this work before in the form of the [[Tomb of Athena]], another gift from the ancient tribes. There's not enough information to discern where the Threes kept getting ''their'' non-Temple visions. Three may have had a hemorrhage because the system was compatible with, but not designed for non-humans. We don't really know if the people who Three saw were actually the five missing Cylons themselves. Just because the character says something doesn't make it true; its their perception. Much of the comments from the virtual Number Six are testaments to how the show's writers love to twist us, so I recommend careful treading on further speculation, lest ye [[BW:FANW|wank your fans.]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:02, 26 January 2007 (CST)
::::I agree; we are lacking too much information. We don't even know for sure when the Temple of Five or the Tomb of Athena were created/programmed. Everyone is assuming they were set up 4000 years ago, but it's possible the "visions" were programmed by the Final 5 fairly recently. The structures may have been created a long time ago, but the Final 5 (or someone else) may have added the high-tech recently. Maybe they already went in search of Earth and were leaving clues for others to follow - they could have also deliberately designed them to fit with the prophecies. I'm reaching, but it helps make the point that we have no idea when the visions in the Temple and Tomb were created. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 17:45, 14 February 2007 (CST)

== holy .... ==

my mistake, sorry[[User:Redlinetheturk|Redlinetheturk]] 08:26, 28 January 2007 (CST)
:No problem. The wiki has retained the history so you only need to copy and paste instead of re-translating again :) --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:11, 28 January 2007 (CST)

== Title ==

rap·ture /ˈræptʃər/ [rap-cher] noun, verb -tured, -tur·ing. 
–noun 
1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy. 
2. Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight. 
3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence. 
4. the Rapture, Theology. the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth. 
5. Archaic. the act of carrying off. 
–verb (used with object) 
6. to enrapture. 

The title doesn't relate to the episode's content very much, except that maybe #3 above may apply to [[Number Three|D'Anna]]'s experience in the temple. One of the most vague titles so far, anyway. Or can anyone come up with a better explanation than the above? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:39, 28 January 2007 (CST)
:I think it clearly refers to D'anna's religious experience in the temple. And while that's only a relatively small part in the entire episode, it does have far-reaching consequences for her and the Cylons --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)
::I think that definitions #1, #2, #3, and #5 all apply to this episode actually. #1 because there was definitely an ecstatic joy on D'anna's face after she saw the final five. #2 closely follows the theme of #1. #5 in relation to the humans tuck on the planet as they had to be immediately carried off before the planet exploded. #3 because D'anna was carried to the opera house once she stepped into the "well of souls." --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 14:38, 30 January 2007 (CST)

== "Who programmed us" ==

This article, [[Cylon Models]] and [[Humanoid Cylon]] all have Three's line at the end of ''Rapture'' as "The one who programmed us," but I'm fairly certain the line is "It's not a flaw to question our purpose, is it? ''To wonder who programmed us'', the way we think, and why?"--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 02:57, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:You're right, I just re-watched the scene. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:29, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::Something tells me that she means humans and Cylon in general, more than literally who programmed them and why. But yeah, that's the correct line. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:59, 3 February 2007 (CST)

== Cavil, the keeper of secrets? ==

Should information from RDM's podcast about Cavil be included? RDM said how delighted he was with the idea that the athetist Cavil model is the actual model that knows about the final 5, a guardian if you will. That explains why Cavil was able to deduce why D'Anna was concerned with the Temple and why he felt it was his responsibility to prevent D'Anna from doing so. It also explains why again it is Cavil, and not the other models, that is confronting the 3 models before they're boxed, he(or they) are the ones who truly know and guard the secret of who the final 5 are.

Either case, I just think it would be helpful to include that info in as rumors are flying all about who the final 5 are going to be. That's my two cents. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 22:21, 13 February 2007 (CST)

:The exact quote is "I love Cavil as the keeper of secrets and Cavil is the guy who won't let D'Anna go see the final five. I always thought that was very cool, because it was a nice twist on the character, who he really was, that the atheist Cylon actually knew something about the religion of the Cylons.". IIRC it's common knowledge among the Cylons and the fleet's leadership that there's twelve Cylon models. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:46, 14 February 2007 (CST)

::For exact quotes, you might want to search through the [[Podcast:Rapture|podcast transcript]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:04, 15 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-02-14T23:45:17Z

Todd: /* pre-programmed viewing mechanism? */

== 7th squadron ==

Did anyone else see the 7th squadron logo behind Helo?
[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 16:12, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:Sure did. I'm sure someone may get a screencap of it soon and note it on [[Squadrons of Galactica]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:19, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

: The was a good read.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Not sure if it was Fisher, but I think he's one of the marines for sure --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:05, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm pretty sure Dee says "Sarge?" after he gets shot. I could be wrong though. -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::Nooo! That's a shame, because the guy that plays Fischer is friends with Tahmoh. I wouldn't want to be the guy breaking it to him that his character was getting killed off (and in such an inconsequential way, to boot). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:45, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:::I edited the line but left the implication that they were going to box her for the talk page. If I remember, I think it has already been implied on earlier episode summaries that the Threes may be boxed - it goes without saying on this page. {{unsigned|Saiboogu}}

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: It looked like there were other Cavils doing the same thing to all the other Threes in the wide shot that ended the episode. It is rather interesting that Cavil's normally not among the models who participates in a post-resurrection midwifing, yet he's the only one there when a boxing takes place, no? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:04, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:To me it looked like a lot of Cavil-activity too. If (as many people here believe) Cavil is Number Two, then his actions in this episode make perfect sense. He's the one who confronts D'Anna in the temple and almost kills her, he's the one who proposes boxing the Threes in the first place, and he's the one who ends up actually doing it. If Cavil is either Two or Four, he'd be the representative of the remaining Cylons and it would make sense for him to go on a boxing spree. Also, if Cavil is Two, he wouldn't want his 'leadership' status (as far as he has any; he didn't protest against the majority decision to attack the Colonies) threatened by the revelation of Number One (who I believe to be among the Final Five). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:39, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I gotta get me a bigger tv.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: Fleet-D'Anna from Final Cut interacted with Roslin, Adama, Tigh, and Lee. As for Downloaded/Final Five-D'Anna, it's just been Baltar, Doc Cottle and Anders, who she was a righteous bitch to and nearly killed by the way. --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:: I thought Fleet-D'Anna was Final Five-D'anna --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I think it's pretty obvious that the D'anna who found Hera and searched for the Five is the D'anna we know from Final Cut. Caprica-Three has a rather nastier temperament, both in Downloaded and in Occuprice. It's possible the Three who defies the basestar command in Rapture is Caprica-Three as well. I believe only one Number Three is referred to as D'anna and that's Final Cut D'anna. Note that even the other Cylons refer to her by that name. Normally, Cylons only seem to bestow individual names on a Cylon who has accomplished something significant. (For example, while D'anna mentioned speaking to a Simon, this was so Baltar would know who she's talking about.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::: Yeah, that was the clincher for me, when the other Cylons called her D'Anna. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:19, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::: The D'Anna that's been focused on recently is the one who was in Downloaded, see her flashbacks in [[Hero]] and the response from Bradley Thompson ([[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]]). She's probably called D'Anna because Baltar calls her that. The reporter D'Anna from Final Cut was in the fleet at the time of Downloaded, so they're not one and the same. Messiah-D'Anna may be the one shown at the end of Final Cut. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::::I transcribed the conversation, I'm not sure about "it's a trick before I die", the line was barely audible.
:::::::D'anna: "The final five, is it really you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You."
:::::::D'anna: "Forgive me I ... I had no idea."
:::::::''transitions from D'anna holding mystery figure's hand in the vision to D'anna holding Balthar's hand in the temple''
:::::::Baltar: "No idea about what? What did you see? Who was it?"
:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Blatar: "What was? Tell me am I one of you."
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Baltar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me I have have to know. Tell me I have to know did you see my face? Am I a cylon?"
:::::::Baltar: "God ... it's a trick before I die."
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home mister president."
::::::It was pretty heavily implied that it was Baltar, although the "forgive me, I have no idea" line would also be consistant with [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]]. She could also be apologising for any as of yet unmentioned offscreen actions against any known or as of yet unintroduced character on Cylon occupied [[New Caprica]] or any of the Cylon-occupied Colonies. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:16, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::: Actually what Baltar said at the end was:

:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Baltar: "What was? Tell me! Am I one of you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Baltar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me, stay wi... I have have to know! Tell me! I have to know! Did you see my face!?! Am I a Cylon!?! Frak!"
:::::::''Baltar steps over D'anna's body and onto the mandala:''
:::::::Baltar: "God please tell me the truth before I die."
:::::::''Someone sneaks up to Baltar and puts a gun to the back of his head''
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home Mister President."
:::::::
:::::::At least that was what he said in close captioning. I did hear something like "its a trick" at the same time. Easter egg? And his name is "Baltar" not "Balthar". [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 17:07, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::::::::"Tell me the truth" makes more sense. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:04, 25 January 2007 (CST)

::Fleet-Three from "Final Cut" can't possibly be Messiah-Three - during Three's first recreational suicide in "[[Hero]]", she flashes back to a scene from "Final Cut" set on Caprica. This means she's the same Three as the one watching the documentary in that episode, and not the one who was on ''Galactica'' at that time. She also flashes back to her death at the hands of Caprica-Six in "[[Downloaded]]", so we know that they are also the same character. Since it doesn't make sense for Messiah-Three to apologize for any actions taken by Fleet-Three, I think we can safely rule her out. That leaves the humans interacted with by Messiah-Three to be considered. There are only seven candidates:
::*Sam Anders - Tried to kill him on Caprica ([[Downloaded]])
::*Tucker "Duck" - Blew her up at the NCP graduation ceremony ([[Occupation]])
::*Dodona Selloi - Consulted her regarding Hera's fate ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Cottle - Discussed Hera's cremation ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Felix Gaeta - Was present when she, Caprica-Six and Baltar evacuated Colonial One, but did not interact with him ([[Exodus, Part II]])
::*Denny "Bulldog" Novacek ([[Hero]]) - Interrogated by an anonymous "sick" Three on a Basestar.
::*Gaius Baltar
::In evaluating these, we should establish whether Messiah-Three has done anything to them worth apologizing for, and consider whether story logistics allow them to be a Cylon. Three has no reason to apologize to Duck, Selloi, Cottle or Gaeta, narrowing the field to just Baltar, Bulldog, and Anders.
::From a storytelling standpoint, Baltar can't possibly be a Cylon. They've teased it so much that there's no dramatic payoff if they reveal it now - it would be a total anticlimax. It also ruins his character's dramatic function, since Baltar's role is to be the guilt-ridden traitor. His character can't function as a Cylon. If James Callis ever intends to leave the show, revealing him as one of the final five would be a good way to write him out, but in the near-term, it's just not a possibility.
::Bulldog would be a completely uninteresting choice (since we know nothing about him and have no emotional investment in his character). Additionally, the actor will probably be difficult to book in the future, and the character has mitigating factors (a long military career with verified non-Cylons Bill Adama and Saul Tigh).
::This leaves Anders as the only possibility. Messiah-Three certainly has grounds to apologize to him, and he has no real mitigating factors - no history prior to his time with the Caprica Buccaneers, and (notably) no children with his wife, Kara Thrace. It also explains his remarkable ability to withstand and quickly recover from walking pneumonia ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::Love the analysis. Who you narrow it down to makes sense. Anders is just a goofy guy, though. I personally find the Bulldog theory more interesting because of his connection to Adama and Tigh. If we see the character pop up in upcoming credits that might be a sign that they're filling out his backstory. Until then, though, maybe Anders will take on more shades, or the writers will have a dramatic twist that'll make Baltar a more convincing choice.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:53, 25 January 2007 (CST)
I think you're making a leap on the apology thing. The apology may not be for something that Three did to the Final Five model in question, but that she was sorry she didn't know that that person was a cylon and/or a member of the final five. Make sense? --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:13, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:It's possible, but it would be bad writing if that were the case. I'm making the (perhaps misguided) assumption that the writers respect our intelligence, and wouldn't give us a clue we can't use. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:23, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I respectfully disagree that it's bad writing. Haven't you ever been in a situation that required you to say "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was you." I may be wrong and I don't think the speculation as to what she meant is that plain. I think it could go either way.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:36, 25 January 2007 (CST)
Is is possible that the person she was apologizing to was the hybrid? [[User:Aspshortjock|Aspshortjock]] 16:29, 25 January 2007 (CST)[[User:aspshortjock|aspshortjock]]
:I don't think so. If, as I believe RDM describes her in the Torn podcast, the Hybrid is an intermediate step between mechanical and humanoid models then she is not a humanoid model. Also, she doesn't have legs and couldn't be standing on the dais. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:41, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Boxing the Threes ==

There is discussion around here about just how they boxed the entire Three line, so here's my idea:
*Send all your Cavils to the Resurrection Ship's Three Deck.
*Reprogram the Centurions to forget the Threes are Cylons.
*Have the Centurions fire upon all Threes they can find in the fleet. (Resurrection Ship's gonna work overtime on that)
*Have your Cavils box the downloaded Threes.
Any alternative ideas, anyone? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my one main idea, based on looking at what happened once D'Anna saw the final five.

*One of the consequences of her seeing the final five was that the experience would overload her Cylon brain. Take note that her eyes glazed over and her nose started to bleed, inferring that there was some sort of hemmorage occuring, probably from the brain area. Since it has been shown many times throughout the series that the Cylon models amongst themselves can communicate with each other on a near telepathic level, whether it is for voting on leadership decisions or sharing memories. I believe it is entirely possible that once D'anna saw the final five, the shared memory of that forbidden knowledge was transmitted to all the other Threes, thus resulting in their own deaths as well.

When Cavil talked with D'Anna and told her to look at all the "damage" she had caused, he seems to be talking about all the other resurrection chambers around her. This implied to me that the damage that occurred was that every Three died at the same time & thus time and energy had to be spent to resurrect them all. I take this to be the final breaking point for the rest of the Cylon leadership as resurrecting an entire line of cylons would have taxed the resources they currently had, plus now that all the Threes have this shared knowledge of the final five, it is too dangerous to keep them around, thus the final boxing.

That's my 2 cents. I understand how the other explanations can work and may very well be one of those. However, considering how often RDM and crew bring in some religious and spiritual twists every so often into their stories, what happened to D'Anna could be akin to how some religious teachings bring up the idea that once a normal human being looks upon the face of a god, their penalty is immediate death. Even in the RDM podcast, he referred to the cause of the boxing to the occurence that they finally took a bite of the forbidden knowledge, a reference to the Fall of Man account in the Judeo-Christian teachings.

Either case, I don't think the Cylons did much to "box" all the Threes. The Threes died because of D'anna's encounter with the final five and thus made it much easier to box all of them as they're resurrected. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible that The Threes simply accepted their faith? After all they were able to get a ship on the planet they had no further reason to disagree with the other cylons.

Also we see some people walking in the "boxing chamber" when Brother Cavil leaves. Who are they?--[[User:R4p70r|R4p70r]] 14:14, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:The premise on the Three's multiple resurrections is based on a false assumption: The Cylons have a collective knowledgebase where information can be voluntarily shared to anyone of any model. However, unless [[Sharon Agathon]] was lying (which is unlikely, otherwise the Cylons know all of the Colonial tactical data they care to know through her now), this is not compulsory, so anything that D'Anna-Three learned may not necessarily have been sent to all other Threes. This goes against the point that she was dying, which requires the downloading circuitry, and the fact that the Cylons are NOT the "Borg" of Star Trek; they are not a "hive mind" that are continually connected (although models can relate data within each other, such as in the basestar command consensus). I'm all for the Centurion-shoot-up theory myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:33, 25 January 2007 (CST)

::The other figures are Cavil copies boxing the other Threes, it's mentioned in the podcast. [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:12, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Removed analysis ==

* Battlestar Wiki contributors confirmed the similarity between the symbolic Eye-of-Jupiter image in the Temple of Five and the painting seen in Kara Thrace's old apartment ([[Valley of Darkness]]) prior to this episode (see [[Talk:The Eye of Jupiter#WTF_moment|this talk page]]).
** According to the [[Podcast:Rapture|RDM podcast]], the image in Kara's apartment was a mandala that the actress had decided to paint before the actual shooting occurred.

These lines were removed by [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] ([[User_talk:Peter Farago|Talk]]), saying: "''Remove self aggrandizement. Nobody cares who conjectured what.''".

I personally think both would be better off as separate bullet points in ''[[Rapture#Notes|Notes]]'' rather than ''[[Rapture#Analysis|Analysis]]'', but I do care. The second point is factual information that simply belongs here (I readded it). The first, well... I think deciding whether it's allowed to take pride in our own analysis is up to the admins (could you respond here, please?). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:39, 25 January 2007 (CST)

:We had this same debate regarding the name of the [[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]], which Merv arrived at before RDM's podcast revealed that the battle actually was inspired by the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. The Merovingian wanted credit for it, but I argued at that time that the assignation of credit was irrelevant - I understand that you want to take pride in our community, but doing so is inappropriate inasmuch as it violates our NPOV policy (we certainly don't assign credit like that to non-wiki members), and isn't going to be a topic of interest to a viewer perusing the episode guide even a week from now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:ditto. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm to blame for the entry; it's not at all crucial, and if it violates NPOV, it should be removed. The Talk page of the article has the off-air kudos to the contributors, in any case. Finding this type of stuff is part of the fun of using the wiki, so at least the talk page gives the "fun" and the credit to the contributors, and the article can stay neutral. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:I agree that the self-reference to BSWiki is irrelevant, but the information from the podcast could indeed be added under Notes --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::[[Rapture#Notes|It's already there]] --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:43, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== "Mandala" ==

I've got a bit of an issue with the continued use of the term "mandala when referring to the carving in the temple and to Starbuck's painting. Definitionally, a "mandala" is "a geometric figure representing the universe in Hindu and Buddhist symbolism." While the design bears some resemblence to a galaxy/universe, there is no proof that that is what it is. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:They did call it that in the episode, didn't they?
::'''Adama:''' I think the Chief is right. I think the supernova does look like the mandala inside the temple.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's correct, they do call it a mandala. Maybe you (BklynBruzer) can add a [[Rapture#Notes|note]] on how the ep's usage of the word "mandala" is incorrect. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:30, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::::Please read in detail the definition of [[w:mandala|mandala on Wikipedia]]. It is possible that the Thirteenth Tribe created the symbol for meditative use (it ''is'' in a Temple, after all). Mandalas don't have to be used or designed in a specific way except in a circular format, and it appears that the symbol adheres to the modern practice. Mandalas don't have to look like anything except for what it depicts or inspires, and it may relate to an ''element'' or ''concept'' of the universe, not a specific celestial object (although this one does). The fact that the symbol is all over the place gives it significance, but I feel we should stick to its modern application. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::Ah, if the episode itself called it a mandala, then consider my complaint dropped. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:34, 25 January 2007 (CST)

:RDM's podcast also refers to it as a mandala. Maybe when the actress had originally created it, they thought of it as a mandala and not a supernova symbol. Either case, I say that the word be used in the main article because at the very least, Adama uses that word in the show. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 13:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== pre-programmed viewing mechanism? ==

I have a problem with this statement in the analysis section.
:"Because D'Anna recognized one of the figures in white which must have been programmed into the viewing mechanism 4000 years previously, it can be concluded that there is some substantial connection between whomever the Temple of Five was dedicated to and the Cylons."
It's not necessarily a pre-programmed viewing mechanism. We don't even know whether the device was malfunctioning or working as designed. All we know is that when Three stepped onto the mandala, had a vision of the Final Five and then died of what appears to be a brain hemmorhage. I'll edit the comment in question. - [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:02, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::I agree. It does assume that the modality of transmission-if that is the proper term for it-is a mechanism of some sort. In the make believe world of ''Battlestar Galactica'' such phenomena as visions and precognition could exist however we may feel about them in the real world. Just like in say the TV show ''Smallville'' (which is about a young Clark Kent in his pre Superman days) magic and ghost are real. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:45, 25 January 2007 (CST)
::Maybe it's not the temple that's preprogrammed, but the Cylons themselves? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 07:51, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::There may never be enough information, with the Threes all gone, to discern how the mechanism worked. We've seen stuff like this work before in the form of the [[Tomb of Athena]], another gift from the ancient tribes. There's not enough information to discern where the Threes kept getting ''their'' non-Temple visions. Three may have had a hemorrhage because the system was compatible with, but not designed for non-humans. We don't really know if the people who Three saw were actually the five missing Cylons themselves. Just because the character says something doesn't make it true; its their perception. Much of the comments from the virtual Number Six are testaments to how the show's writers love to twist us, so I recommend careful treading on further speculation, lest ye [[BW:FANW|wank your fans.]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:02, 26 January 2007 (CST)
::::I agree; we are lacking too much information. We don't even know for sure when the Temple of Five or the Tomb of Athena were created/programmed. Everyone is assuming they were set up 4000 years ago, but it's possible the "visions" were programmed by the Final 5 fairly recently. The structures may have been created a long time ago, but the Final 5 may added the high-tech recently. Maybe they already went in search of Earth and were leaving clues for others to follow - they could have also deliberately designed them to fit with the prophecies. I'm reaching, but it helps make the point that we have no idea when the visions of the Temple and Tomb were created. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 17:45, 14 February 2007 (CST)

== holy .... ==

my mistake, sorry[[User:Redlinetheturk|Redlinetheturk]] 08:26, 28 January 2007 (CST)
:No problem. The wiki has retained the history so you only need to copy and paste instead of re-translating again :) --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:11, 28 January 2007 (CST)

== Title ==

rap·ture /ˈræptʃər/ [rap-cher] noun, verb -tured, -tur·ing. 
–noun 
1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy. 
2. Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight. 
3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence. 
4. the Rapture, Theology. the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth. 
5. Archaic. the act of carrying off. 
–verb (used with object) 
6. to enrapture. 

The title doesn't relate to the episode's content very much, except that maybe #3 above may apply to [[Number Three|D'Anna]]'s experience in the temple. One of the most vague titles so far, anyway. Or can anyone come up with a better explanation than the above? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:39, 28 January 2007 (CST)
:I think it clearly refers to D'anna's religious experience in the temple. And while that's only a relatively small part in the entire episode, it does have far-reaching consequences for her and the Cylons --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)
::I think that definitions #1, #2, #3, and #5 all apply to this episode actually. #1 because there was definitely an ecstatic joy on D'anna's face after she saw the final five. #2 closely follows the theme of #1. #5 in relation to the humans tuck on the planet as they had to be immediately carried off before the planet exploded. #3 because D'anna was carried to the opera house once she stepped into the "well of souls." --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 14:38, 30 January 2007 (CST)

== "Who programmed us" ==

This article, [[Cylon Models]] and [[Humanoid Cylon]] all have Three's line at the end of ''Rapture'' as "The one who programmed us," but I'm fairly certain the line is "It's not a flaw to question our purpose, is it? ''To wonder who programmed us'', the way we think, and why?"--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 02:57, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:You're right, I just re-watched the scene. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:29, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::Something tells me that she means humans and Cylon in general, more than literally who programmed them and why. But yeah, that's the correct line. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:59, 3 February 2007 (CST)

== Cavil, the keeper of secrets? ==

Should information from RDM's podcast about Cavil be included? RDM said how delighted he was with the idea that the athetist Cavil model is the actual model that knows about the final 5, a guardian if you will. That explains why Cavil was able to deduce why D'Anna was concerned with the Temple and why he felt it was his responsibility to prevent D'Anna from doing so. It also explains why again it is Cavil, and not the other models, that is confronting the 3 models before they're boxed, he(or they) are the ones who truly know and guard the secret of who the final 5 are.

Either case, I just think it would be helpful to include that info in as rumors are flying all about who the final 5 are going to be. That's my two cents. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 22:21, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-14T01:53:02Z

Todd: /* Everybody's a Cylon */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5. However, my point at the start of this thread remains true. We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past. Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them. It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::The secret of the final 5 is a secret -- even from the 7 revealed Cylons, that much we do know. They have some sort of reason (programming) to not wish to discuss them and seek them out, and D'anna's violation of that is enough to get her whole line boxed, a drastic and as far as we know unprecedented move. I suspect its programming because boy, would I be damn curious about the 5 if I were as theological as these Cylons are. The numbering, anyway, could easily be deliberately intended to deceive. They are special in some way, that we know, so their random number doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective. Were there once 12 models all together? What made the 7 forget they had ever seen the 5, then? Were they created independently? That seems to be the only other way (besides memory erasure) that the 7 would not have seen the 5, but that means either the 5 created the 7, or a 3rd party created both for 2 purposes. The 5 have certainly seen the 7 (on New Caprica if nowhere else.) One explanation that has the 5 still be recent is the 5 priests or their lord are still around and they helped create the humanoid cylons or the 5 in particular. We still don't know how the cylons got their biotech. --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::Couldn't the Final 5 be earlier messed up or aged versions of 5 of the S7? And D'Anna was apologizing to Cavil? Huh? Did I just blow your collective minds?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:07, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::Nope. To quote D'anna. "There are five *other* Cylons, brother. One day you will see them."--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:47, 9 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::::Damn the facts.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:17, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::I'm not saying it can't be, but the final five being significantly different from the surviving seven (significantly older, or progenitors of the seven) seems to go against some of the information we have. For example, RDM once talked about the twelve models being based on twelve human archetypes. That seems to imply a common origin/creation for the twelve models. That doesn't mean that's the case or that RDM couldn't have changed his mind. This is a stretch, but could it be possible that when the Cylons refer to the "final five", they are ''not'' talking about the five models unknown to the colonials? Could the number five just be a coincidence? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:40, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::The twelve archetypes (which is BS anyway) go back much further than the Cylons. Anyway, I don't see how it can be that "All this has happened before" if these Cylons are the very first Cylons. The Kobolians and the Earthlings appear to have much more advanced technology than the colonials have now or had at the time of the creation of the toaster models. It would be very odd to me (not just because of the scrolls) if the show's Cylons are the first Cylons. What we had not seen until the Temple of Five was a definite connection between the earlier generation beings and the modern Cylons and their final 5. Now we have one, unless it was a hallucination. The final 5 have some big secret, and we don't know what it is, but it seems to be related to the Kobol or Earth eras.
::::::::::::::BS? Care to elaborate on that? I think you may be taking the "All this has happened before..." prophecy a bit too literally. "If you believe in the gods, then you believe in the cycle of time that we are all playing our parts in a story that is told again, and again, and again throughout eternity". That doesn't mean everything will be repeated in the exact same way over and over, just in general. "All this has happened before..." does not mean that Cylons existed before. I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't think that's what the prophecy means. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:57, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::::The BS is the idea that there are only 12 human archetypes worth creating. Yes, we don't know what "all this" means, but the Kobolians and Earthlings are more advanced than the colonials (holodecks, living demigods, temple of 5 vision generator, Cylons afraid of Kobol) so it would seem pretty odd that they would not have created (or been) AIs/Cylons. The Cylons keep hinting they know a big secret about the Kobol times and scrolls. So perhaps the AIs of the past never rebelled, but it would be odd if they had not been there.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 19:19, 13 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::::::Well, I'm not saying the 12 archetypes idea is accurate, but that *is* what RDM said in an interview. I haven't thought it through enough to know if it fits with the information we have, but I've been wondering if it's possible that the final five previously broke from the other Cylons and went in search of Earth on their own. Perhaps they are the ones that set up these advanced technology "clues" to lead the other Cylons and/or Humans to follow after them. They could have easily constructed things to fit the prophecies. Just a thought. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 19:32, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection.

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

== Everybody's a Cylon ==

This is a speculation that violates all the rules, yet I've seen a number of people support as interesting on the Galactica newsgroup, do people feel it's out of place on the main speculation page:

Everybody in the show is a Cylon. All this has happened before. AI beings were created before, by earlier generations of humans, on Kobol or Earth, and those AIs rebelled and took human form. "Some of them are programmed to think they are human." In this case the "some of them" is the 12 tribes, created on Kobol, and then banished as a result of battles among their creators, their memories of their origins wiped or altered before they were sent out into the stars with altered sacred scrolls. Athena kills herself over it but leaves clues back to Earth for them -- presumably she was one of the main creators of this new race of artificial humanoids.

So the artificial humanoids, thinking they were evolved natural beings (though they have no evidence for that on their own planets) rebuilt a civilization, and then created their own AI robots which rebelled. (Possibly on their own, possibly with guidance from watchers).

After all, we're told "Some of them are programmed to think they are human" at the start of every S1 episode, but only one character has been revealed to have been in that state. There's a lot more other stuff involved in these theories about what this might have meant about Kobol, Earth, the Final 5, the Temple etc. but I just wanted to stick to the broadest humanoid Cylon speculation of all -- that everybody is a Cylon, of an earlier generation. Obviously these earlier generation Cylons are able to breed, etc.

The evidence is still circumstantial for this (as it is for all the Cylon speculations) but it's growing, especially as the appearance of the fianl five in the [[Temple of Five]] strongly suggests that there are earlier generation Cylons of some type--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:59, 9 February 2007 (CST)

: This is my favorite theory so far. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:21, 12 February 2007 (CST)

:It's an interesting thought; however, the "some of them are programmed to think they are human" line was removed for a reason. I don't know what that reason was, but it could simply be that all of the sleeper agents have been revealed, so the line isn't really accurate any longer. Also, it may not be true that "only one character has been revealed to have been in that state." The initial Doral on Galactica was probably a sleeper. Shelly Godfrey also acted like she may have believed she was human. I guess we don't know for sure, but I feel that at least the Doral was. Still, it's a good thought. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 19:53, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-14T01:32:33Z

Todd: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-13T20:57:07Z

Todd: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5. However, my point at the start of this thread remains true. We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past. Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them. It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::The secret of the final 5 is a secret -- even from the 7 revealed Cylons, that much we do know. They have some sort of reason (programming) to not wish to discuss them and seek them out, and D'anna's violation of that is enough to get her whole line boxed, a drastic and as far as we know unprecedented move. I suspect its programming because boy, would I be damn curious about the 5 if I were as theological as these Cylons are. The numbering, anyway, could easily be deliberately intended to deceive. They are special in some way, that we know, so their random number doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective. Were there once 12 models all together? What made the 7 forget they had ever seen the 5, then? Were they created independently? That seems to be the only other way (besides memory erasure) that the 7 would not have seen the 5, but that means either the 5 created the 7, or a 3rd party created both for 2 purposes. The 5 have certainly seen the 7 (on New Caprica if nowhere else.) One explanation that has the 5 still be recent is the 5 priests or their lord are still around and they helped create the humanoid cylons or the 5 in particular. We still don't know how the cylons got their biotech. --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::Couldn't the Final 5 be earlier messed up or aged versions of 5 of the S7? And D'Anna was apologizing to Cavil? Huh? Did I just blow your collective minds?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:07, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::Nope. To quote D'anna. "There are five *other* Cylons, brother. One day you will see them."--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:47, 9 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::::Damn the facts.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:17, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::I'm not saying it can't be, but the final five being significantly different from the surviving seven (significantly older, or progenitors of the seven) seems to go against some of the information we have. For example, RDM once talked about the twelve models being based on twelve human archetypes. That seems to imply a common origin/creation for the twelve models. That doesn't mean that's the case or that RDM couldn't have changed his mind. This is a stretch, but could it be possible that when the Cylons refer to the "final five", they are ''not'' talking about the five models unknown to the colonials? Could the number five just be a coincidence? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:40, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::The twelve archetypes (which is BS anyway) go back much further than the Cylons. Anyway, I don't see how it can be that "All this has happened before" if these Cylons are the very first Cylons. The Kobolians and the Earthlings appear to have much more advanced technology than the colonials have now or had at the time of the creation of the toaster models. It would be very odd to me (not just because of the scrolls) if the show's Cylons are the first Cylons. What we had not seen until the Temple of Five was a definite connection between the earlier generation beings and the modern Cylons and their final 5. Now we have one, unless it was a hallucination. The final 5 have some big secret, and we don't know what it is, but it seems to be related to the Kobol or Earth eras.
::::::::::::::BS? Care to elaborate on that? I think you may be taking the "All this has happened before..." prophecy a bit too literally. "If you believe in the gods, then you believe in the cycle of time that we are all playing our parts in a story that is told again, and again, and again throughout eternity". That doesn't mean everything will be repeated in the exact same way over and over, just in general. "All this has happened before..." does not mean that Cylons existed before. I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't think that's what the prophecy means. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:57, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection.

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

== Everybody's a Cylon ==

This is a speculation that violates all the rules, yet I've seen a number of people support as interesting on the Galactica newsgroup, do people feel it's out of place on the main speculation page:

Everybody in the show is a Cylon. All this has happened before. AI beings were created before, by earlier generations of humans, on Kobol or Earth, and those AIs rebelled and took human form. "Some of them are programmed to think they are human." In this case the "some of them" is the 12 tribes, created on Kobol, and then banished as a result of battles among their creators, their memories of their origins wiped or altered before they were sent out into the stars with altered sacred scrolls. Athena kills herself over it but leaves clues back to Earth for them -- presumably she was one of the main creators of this new race of artificial humanoids.

So the artificial humanoids, thinking they were evolved natural beings (though they have no evidence for that on their own planets) rebuilt a civilization, and then created their own AI robots which rebelled. (Possibly on their own, possibly with guidance from watchers).

After all, we're told "Some of them are programmed to think they are human" at the start of every S1 episode, but only one character has been revealed to have been in that state. There's a lot more other stuff involved in these theories about what this might have meant about Kobol, Earth, the Final 5, the Temple etc. but I just wanted to stick to the broadest humanoid Cylon speculation of all -- that everybody is a Cylon, of an earlier generation. Obviously these earlier generation Cylons are able to breed, etc.

The evidence is still circumstantial for this (as it is for all the Cylon speculations) but it's growing, especially as the appearance of the fianl five in the [[Temple of Five]] strongly suggests that there are earlier generation Cylons of some type--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:59, 9 February 2007 (CST)

: This is my favorite theory so far. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:21, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-09T20:40:57Z

Todd: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5. However, my point at the start of this thread remains true. We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past. Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them. It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::The secret of the final 5 is a secret -- even from the 7 revealed Cylons, that much we do know. They have some sort of reason (programming) to not wish to discuss them and seek them out, and D'anna's violation of that is enough to get her whole line boxed, a drastic and as far as we know unprecedented move. I suspect its programming because boy, would I be damn curious about the 5 if I were as theological as these Cylons are. The numbering, anyway, could easily be deliberately intended to deceive. They are special in some way, that we know, so their random number doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective. Were there once 12 models all together? What made the 7 forget they had ever seen the 5, then? Were they created independently? That seems to be the only other way (besides memory erasure) that the 7 would not have seen the 5, but that means either the 5 created the 7, or a 3rd party created both for 2 purposes. The 5 have certainly seen the 7 (on New Caprica if nowhere else.) One explanation that has the 5 still be recent is the 5 priests or their lord are still around and they helped create the humanoid cylons or the 5 in particular. We still don't know how the cylons got their biotech. --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::Couldn't the Final 5 be earlier messed up or aged versions of 5 of the S7? And D'Anna was apologizing to Cavil? Huh? Did I just blow your collective minds?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:07, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::Nope. To quote D'anna. "There are five *other* Cylons, brother. One day you will see them."--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:47, 9 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::I'm not saying it can't be, but the final five being significantly different from the surviving seven (significantly older, or progenitors of the seven) seems to go against some of the information we have. For example, RDM once talked about the twelve models being based on twelve human archetypes. That seems to imply a common origin/creation for the twelve models. That doesn't mean that's the case or that RDM couldn't have changed his mind. This is a stretch, but could it be possible that when the Cylons refer to the "final five", they are ''not'' talking about the five models unknown to the colonials? Could the number five just be a coincidence? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:40, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection.

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

== Everybody's a Cylon ==

This is a speculation that violates all the rules, yet I've seen a number of people support as interesting on the Galactica newsgroup, do people feel it's out of place on the main speculation page:

Everybody in the show is a Cylon. All this has happened before. AI beings were created before, by earlier generations of humans, on Kobol or Earth, and those AIs rebelled and took human form. "Some of them are programmed to think they are human." In this case the "some of them" is the 12 tribes, created on Kobol, and then banished as a result of battles among their creators, their memories of their origins wiped or altered before they were sent out into the stars with altered sacred scrolls. Athena kills herself over it but leaves clues back to Earth for them -- presumably she was one of the main creators of this new race of artificial humanoids.

So the artificial humanoids, thinking they were evolved natural beings (though they have no evidence for that on their own planets) rebuilt a civilization, and then created their own AI robots which rebelled. (Possibly on their own, possibly with guidance from watchers).

After all, we're told "Some of them are programmed to think they are human" at the start of every S1 episode, but only one character has been revealed to have been in that state. There's a lot more other stuff involved in these theories about what this might have meant about Kobol, Earth, the Final 5, the Temple etc. but I just wanted to stick to the broadest humanoid Cylon speculation of all -- that everybody is a Cylon, of an earlier generation. Obviously these earlier generation Cylons are able to breed, etc.

The evidence is still circumstantial for this (as it is for all the Cylon speculations) but it's growing, especially as the appearance of the fianl five in the [[Temple of Five]] strongly suggests that there are earlier generation Cylons of some type--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:59, 9 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-08T15:03:02Z

Todd: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5. However, my point at the start of this thread remains true. We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past. Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them. It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection.

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-07T15:43:47Z

Todd: /* Virus Qualifier */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-07T15:14:17Z

Todd: /* Virus Qualifier */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-06T16:42:01Z

Todd:

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-04T09:29:10Z

Todd:

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2007-02-04T09:15:03Z

Todd: /* Needed Qualifiers for Speculation */

{{seealso|Characters eliminated from suspicion}}

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived content|plausible speculation]] on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent. As of the [[Rapture|second half of Season Three]], [[Cylon Models#Known Models|seven]] Cylon Agents have been revealed both to the population of the Fleet and to the audience. [[Final Five|Five]] Cylons remain unaccounted for.

==Needed Qualifiers for Speculation==

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effective infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would have known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of preexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; it is assumed the Cylons had no models advanced enough to plausibly pass as humans (i.e. [[Wikipedia:Android|androids]] and [[Wikipedia:Gynoid|gynoids]]), so if someone is confirmed to have lived during or participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh. Note that apparent age is ''not'' a disqualifer; the Cylon agent model known as [[Cavil]] appears as old as William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect must not have been exposed to the [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|lymphocytic encephalitis virus]].''' The virus is lethal to Cylons with the exception of any Cylon that has been impregnated by a human, e.g. [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]]. Therefore, any member of the boarding party in [[A Measure of Salvation]] (excluding Athena) cannot be a Cylon. This qualifier is not absolute going forward as [[Cottle]] claimed to be able to create a temporary vaccine. So it is possible that a Cylon could survive exposure to the virus in the future, provided they had access to a sufficient supply of the vaccine. It's possible Athena may have lost her immunity as a result of her download in [[Rapture]], or that the immunity may have downloaded with her, potentially inoculating all Cylons against the virus.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies. Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead'''<ref>In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated, "The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."</ref>.

Please note that [[Wikipedia:retcon|retroactive continuity changes]] are possible in the series<ref>Retconning has occurred previously, from as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between "[[Bastille Day]]" and "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]") or the number of prisoners held aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' (between the [[Miniseries]] and "[[Bastille Day]].").</ref> This article is based on plausible speculation, which is also highly fluid in content and can violate {{tl|NPOV}} policies if taken too far.

==Suspected Cylon infiltrators==

===Moderate probability of being a Cylon===

====Gaius Baltar====
{{seealso|Baltar as Cylon speculation}}
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: Unknown (described as a close personal friend of [[Richard Adar|President Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Gaius Baltar]]'s odds of being a Cylon are not good, but not impossible either. The miniseries establishes him as a prominent public figure for years. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human. In "[[Torn]]" [[Caprica-Six]] mentions that she was (and possibly still is) considering to have a child with Baltar, which would appear impossible if he was a Cylon. However, when learning of the Cylon's "[[projection]]" abilities in "[[Torn]]" and how they may be related to his vision of Number Six, Baltar himself begins to question whether or not he is a Cylon.

Recent information from cast members that portray Cylons confirmed a season 3 storyline that indicates that the revealed agents do not know the identity of the five remaining Cylon agents. This storyline is introduced in the episode, "[[Torn]]."

Under extreme psychological duress Baltar confesses to President Roslin and Admiral Adama that his is '''not''' a Cylon, however the veracity of his confession is questionable ([[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]).

====Anastasia "Dee" Dualla====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No<ref>While Dualla has mentioned her father in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]," he has not been seen on-screen. The [[Battlestar Wiki:Separate continuity|separate continuity]] character of [[Darrin Dualla]] is not canonical with this qualification.</ref>
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through, the only survivor in the compartment. Cylon agents have often demonstrated the ability to physically damage themselves for a cause, including self-destruction<ref>There are numerous instances in the series, including [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] attack from a copy of Number Six to give plausibilty for [[Helo]], and a suicide-bombing by a [[Number Five]].</ref>. Dualla could have feigned injury to avoid suspicion. Dualla's relationships with members of both government and military command ([[Billy Keikeya]] and [[Lee Adama]]) increase her involvement with secrets in the Fleet.

====Kara "Starbuck" Thrace====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family, Karl Agathon)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] was apparently disproved as being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/human hybrid experiments ([[The Farm]]). It would be illogical to take genetic material from another Cylon agent (unless Simon is [[Final five|unaware]] that Thrace is another Cylon agent).

Thrace's association with [[Zak Adama]] occurred over two years prior to the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]). Helo notes that he and Thrace have known each other for a "long time" but the actual length of their friendship isn't defined ([[Scattered]]).

[[Image:Valley of Darkness-Starbuck Helo.jpg|right|thumb|Thrace's painting ([[Valley of Darkness]])]]
[[Image:S3-eyeofjupiter.jpg|left|thumb|The symbol in the Temple of Five ([[The Eye of Jupiter]])]]
A strange connection between Thrace, the Cylons, or the ancient Thirteenth Tribe may exist based on the [[Temple of Five]]. A significant similarity exists between a symmbol painted by Thrace that's found in her apartment in "[[Valley of Darkness]]" and the symbol in the Temple of Five, found over a year later. When informed of the similarity between her painting and the temple symbol by Helo, Thrace mentions that the symbol was something that she has drawn since childhood almost subconsciously some times.

The events of the second half of season 3, particularly rumors of Thrace's demise or destiny in the episode "[[Maelstrom]]", and the revelation of her drawing the Eye of Jupiter mandala subconsciously return this character's suspicion from "none" to "moderate." Supporting this tenuous level of suspicion is the fact that the [[Final five|five missing Cylon agents]] are not known to the seven revealed agents, leaving characters with strong levels of direct Cylon interaction (Thrace and Gaius Baltar, particularly) with strange associations that cannot be fully defined, particularly her interactions with the [[Leoben Conoy]] model and his prophetic indications of Thrace's destiny ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

Though clearly meant as a joke, [[Katee Sackhoff]] claims in the Season Three gag reel <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6307683077762423268&q|title=Battlestar Galactica: Season Three Gag Reel|date=|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=Google Video|language=English}}</ref> that Starbuck is a Cylon and that she dies. Given the rumors surrounding the character and the confirmation that a major cast member will be departing after the episode [[Maelstrom]] <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2007/01/major_cast_member_to_depart.shtml|title=GateWorld - Battlestar Galatica News: Major cast membet to depart|date=|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=|language=English}}</ref>, there may be more truth to Sackhoff's claim than there seems.
<div style="clear: both;"></div>

===Low probability of being a Cylon===

====Samuel Anders====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Samuel Anders|Anders]] was a well known public figure as a sports star, although the length of his time in [[Pyramid (RDM)|pyramid sport]] is not known. In "[[Downloaded]]", a copy of [[Number Three]] and [[Caprica-Six]] refer to Anders as human, however if he were a Cylon agent they would not be aware of it (see [[Final five]]).

====Tory Foster====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Precinct Captain but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Tory Foster]] was said to be precinct captain for the Federalist Party in Delphi for five years prior to the Cylon attack ([[The Captain's Hand]]). However at this point is unknown if this has been corroberrated by any disqualifying character.

Tory was a strong voice and hand in the attempt to rig the Presidential election in Roslin's favor. The ruse is uncovered and suppressed by Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] and Lieutenant [[Gaeta]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). While [[Gaius Baltar]] winning the election was a boon to the Cylon fortunes, rigging the election for [[Laura Roslin]] would have hedged Cylon bets since evidence of vote rigging could have provoked rebellion in the fleet even if Roslin won outright.

During the occupation of [[New Caprica]], Foster aides Roslin in some insurgent activities, but we do not see enough of her activities to know for sure if she is soley aiding the human cause. She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and [[Hera|Hera/Isis]] off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child. Hera survives but is found by the Cylons ([[Occupation]], [[Exodus, Part I|Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]]). Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera.

====Felix Gaeta====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

As tactical officer, [[Felix Gaeta]], being technically minded, is initially fond of [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar's work]]. He admitted to ignoring the [[Cylon transponder|Cylon device]] found below the [[DRADIS]] console in the [[Miniseries]], believing it to be part of the new [[Galactica Museum|museum]]. Gaeta neglects an update to [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the Fleet ([[Scattered]]), and proposes creating a [[Computers|computer]] network to fix the matter, leaving the ship vulnerable (and compromised twice).

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] as Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with "Boomer" Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Saul Tigh confirms that he has worked with Gaeta for 4 years ([[Collaborators]]).

Gaeta chose to stay with Baltar's puppet administrator on New Caprica to feed inside information to the resistance, which Galen Tyrol confirms ("[[Occupation]]," "[[Precipice]]," "[[Collaborators]]"). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent infiltration into Colonial society.

====Cally Tyrol====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]] shoots "Boomer" Valerii in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Henderson had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hates Boomer for her association with Chief Tyrol and for her betrayal in shooting Adama.

Henderson is married to Galen Tyrol and has a son, [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3. Given the magnitude of problems in creating Cylon or Cylon/human offspring, Cally Tyrol's pregnancy is a substantially powerful disqualifier as an agent. At the very least, it is impossible for them both to be Cylons.

====Galen Tyrol====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with "Boomer" Valerii, and later has recurring nightmares based on his fear of being a Cylon sleeper agent. Having served under Commander Adama for 5 years, Adama noted that, if Tyrol was a Cylon, he has had plenty of resources and opportunity to destroy the battlestar.

Galen and Cally Tyrol's child, [[Nicholas Tyrol]], all but removes suspicion for this character, given the difficulties in Cylon- or Cylon/human conception. At the very least, it is impossible for them both to be Cylons.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Rapture

2007-02-04T09:00:24Z

Todd: /* Analysis */

{{Episode Data
| title= Rapture
| image= Final Five.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 12
| guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]] 
| writer= [[Bradley Thompson]] [[David Weddle]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production= 312
| rating=1.4<ref>{{cite_news|first=|last=|url=http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/zap-battlestarsundayratings,0,863950.story?coll=zap-tv-headlines|title='Battlestar' Ratings Dip on Sunday|publisher=Zap2It.com|page=|date=24 January 2007|accessdate=24 January 2007|language=English}}</ref>
| US airdate= 2007-01-21
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,401
| prev= [[The Eye of Jupiter]]
| next= [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]
| itunes= http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D212127611%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==

: ''With an impending supernova, the Colonials and Cylons see their time running out as they endeavor to unlock the secrets of the [[Eye of Jupiter]]. Meanwhile, [[Number Three]] executes her plan to know the faces of the [[Final Five]] and [[Sharon Agathon]] tries to get [[Hera|her daughter]] back.''

== Summary ==

===Act 1===
*Others in ''[[Galactica|Galactica's]]'' [[CIC]], particularly Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] and President [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]], become increasingly agitated and shocked as Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] continues issuing orders to arm and launch several nuclear missiles at the [[Temple of Five]]. He instructs Colonel Tigh to enter his launch codes as Adama does the same on his command console.
*In the [[The Eye of Jupiter|previous episode]], the Colonials warned that they would destroy the continent where the ancient [[temple]] resided if the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] attempted any landing there. Six [[Heavy Raider]]s are now heading to the planet, and Adama is intent on showing the Cylons that he is not bluffing.
*The Cylon [[basestar command]] detect Adama's continued missile preparations and become visibly worried that Adama will indeed destroy the Temple. Each of the available models immediately agree to a recall, except for the [[Number Three]] model, who defies the command group's consensus, and refuses to recall the last Heavy Raider.
*''Galactica'' notices the recall of all but one of the Heavy Raiders, which gives Admiral Adama a moment to reconsider. After several tense moments, Adama rescinds the launch order and orders his battlestar to stand down.
*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner rather than later.
*In their quarters, [[Helo]] is angry, saddened and unable to convince his wife, [[Sharon Agathon]] of another course of action by way of Raptor or other transport in her desire to rescue their daughter, [[Hera Agathon|Hera]], in the hands of the Cylons. In the end, both embracing, Helo shoots his wife to force her consciousness to [[Resurrection (RDM)|download and resurrect]] on the Cylon [[Resurrection Ship]] to attempt the rescue.

===Act 2===
*On the [[algae planet]], [[Lee Adama]]'s resistance movement is preparing. However, the Major and [[Samuel Anders]] are still fighting over saving [[Kara Thrace]] after her [[Raptor]] crashed from a Cylon missile attack. When Anders angrily proposes that he will shoot Major Adama if Thrace is dead, Adama responds that he would oblige Anders if Starbuck was killed, relating his feelings about the downed pilot. Their impasse ends when Adama calls his wife, Lieutenant [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]], and orders her to attempt reconnaissance and rescue of Starbuck.

*[[Galen Tyrol]] and his team continue deciphering the writings inside the Temple of Five for discerning the location of the [[Eye of Jupiter]], believed to be an important artifact that gives further data on the road to [[Earth]]. Their investigation does not go well, although Chief Tyrol believes he is close to understanding the writings.
*Admiral Adama and President Roslin meet with Helo and question his wisdom in the Agathon's rescue attempt of their daughter. Adama is concerned that the Cylons may gain critical tactical data from their defected former [[Humanoid Cylon]]. When Roslin criticizes Helo, he angrily reminds her that, if she [[Downloaded|didn't steal their daughter]], the Agathons wouldn't be in this situation.

*Dualla and Sergeant [[Omar Fischer]] make their way to Starbuck's location, but are soon attacked by a Cylon sniper. After her partner is killed, Dualla scrambles, weaponless, along an alternate path to Starbuck's location.

*Starbuck has survived her crash relatively unhurt except for severe burns on her hands. The pain is so severe that Thrace hasn't sufficient dexterity to inject herself with a [[morpha]] shot for the pain. When she hears a noise outside, however, Starbuck suppresses the pain long enough to raise her sidearm at her Raptor's open door.
*Thankfully, Dualla appears at the entrance. After administering a morpha shot, Dualla proceeds to assess the Raptors damage. She tells Thrace that she was ordered to "bring Starbuck to Apollo," describing less of the actual rescue and more of her pain over the "secret" affair between Adama and Thrace.
*Sharon Agathon downloads successfully. Through fortune or design, it is [[Caprica-Six]] who greets her at the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]. Agathon seems truthful in her intentions, despite Six's concerns. In turn, Six tells Agathon that the child is ill and is worsening, to the confusion of the Cylons.
*On the planet, Major Adama's team have set a bomb kill zone in a ravine where any Cylon forces must walk through.

===Act 3===
*When the [[Cylon Centurion|Centurions]] spot the trap, [[Jean Barolay]] is forced to detonate it before the Cylons completely enter the blast radius.
*The explosion removes the lower torso of one Cylon, but it, along with the two undamaged units, return fire. The Colonials destroy the legless Cylon, but lose one of their own in the firefight. Having lost their only chance to hold back a Cylon advance, they begin a retreat to the highlands of the planet to await rescue.
*Major Adama calls Chief Tyrol and orders the immediately evacuation and destruction of the Temple of Five lest it fall in Cylon control. A reluctant Tyrol orders his team out and soon follows, with a detonation cord reel to the [[G-4]] packs in his hands.
*Dualla continues to repair the damaged [[Computers in the Re-imagined Series#Colonial Avionics|avionics]] from cannibalizing [[datacord]] from the ship's communications system. When Thrace's pain increases, Dualla (with an apparently less-than-cordial "bedside manner") stabs Thrace's leg with another morpha injection. As she drifts into a sedated delirium, Thrace confesses to loving and hating Lee Adama and her husband. Dualla slaps the pilot both in annoyance and in an attempt to keep Thrace focused on a major problem: the former petty officer on ''Galactica'' is not flight-trained and cannot fly the Raptor, while Thrace's injuries make it impossible for her to fly.
*[[Gaius Baltar]], the "D'Anna" Three, and a [[Cavil]] prepare to enter the Temple. Baltar's virtual Six appears to remind him, despite Three's feelings, that Baltar himself and not Three is the "chosen one" who is meant to activate or access the Temple's secrets.
*Reunited with the other Colonials at a safe distance from the Temple, Tyrol is reluctant to detonate the Temple's explosives. When Major Adama wrestles the detonator away from Tyrol and activates it, nothing happens. Unknown to them, Cavil, Three, and Baltar have removed the detonator caps from the G-4 immediately after they entered the Temple.
*Chief Tyrol and the team see the atmosphere ripple and pulsate as the star begins its nova. The star's corona (or its effect on the atmosphere above the Temple) takes shape to form a likeness of the circular multicolored starburst-like [[w:mandala|mandala]] that decorated the Temple. Tyrol quickly realizes that the star itself ''is'' the Eye of Jupiter. The Colonial team goes to investigate.
*The algae planet's home star has made a helium burst of its outer atmosphere. The star is going nova. Everyone, Cylon and Colonial alike, have less than an hour to escape the system.
*Sharon Agathon and Caprica-Six arrive at Hera's room, where Agathon's ''Galactica'' predecessor, [[Sharon Valerii]], is tending the child. Valerii is visibly angered at Agathon's presence. When Agathon picks up her crying daughter, the child's cries cease momentarily. Caprica-Six curiously realizes that, while both Agathon and Valerii are biologically identical, Hera is able to recognize her mother.
*Agathon's human first-aid training recognizes that Hera's stomach is too firm, suggesting a possible intestinal blockage. When Valerii comments that the Cylon doctors detected no such problem, Agathon reminds her that the Cylons have no pediatric care experience, having medical experience only with the adult-sized humanoids of their kind.
*Agathon tries to have Valerii remember her love of Chief Tyrol and Admiral Adama, but the former "Boomer" denies her past and rescinds all possibility that humans and Cylons could co-exist, remembering the events on [[New Caprica]].
*Agathon pulls Caprica-Six from Hera's bedside and tells her that, for Hera to survive, she must return her to medical facilities on ''Galactica''. Complicating this, Valerii grows jealous of her inability to help Hera, appearing to become unstable, and physically threatens to break Hera's neck. Agathon pleads for Hera's life as Caprica-Six manages to knock out Valerii. To prevent her from reviving and perhaps alerting others, Six breaks Valerii's neck.
*Agathon and Caprica-Six agree that Hera (and others that come after her) are crucial to the future of the Cylons (and, by implication, the Colonials). They make their way to ''Galactica'' by way of a captured Raptor.

===Act 4===
*Inside the Temple of Five, Baltar quietly notes a Colonial sidearm left behind while Cavil and Three example the structure. When the virtual Six points out the only mandala on a raised section of the floor, Baltar notes it, and Three gravitates to it as well.
*The supernova's effect or light is being channeled through the central spire's crystalline mechanisms and activates a beam of light on the floor's sunburst.
*Cavil attempts to stop the Three from using the beam, questioning Three's intentions not to find Earth in as much as seeking the forbidden information of the [[Final Five]]. He points a gun to shoot Three, but Baltar shoots and kills the Cavil from behind.
*Three walks into the beam and immediately sees the vision of the five she's seen before. Unlike before, however, she is able to discern the specific faces. Three stands in front of one face (not visible to viewers) and immediately recognizes it, apologizing to the being for past transgressions before the vision abruptly stops.
*Dualla manages to fly the Raptor away to space, with Starbuck's guidance.
*Admiral Adama orders an immediate Raptor rescue of everyone on the planet after the Cylons [[Basestar (RDM)|baseships]] immediately retreat to escape the pending nova shockwave.
*Baltar holds Three, who apparently suffers mortal damage from the use of the Temple's vision mechanism. Baltar tries to get Three to tell her what she has seen; specifically, Baltar wants to know if she saw his face among the [[Final five|image of five beings]]. However, Three dies before he gets an answer.
*Baltar drops Three's body and stands in the mandala, attempting to see the vision himself. However, the Temple's illumination from the star has ceased, and so has the vision mechanism. As Baltar prays to God to help him, he finds the barrel of a Colonial sidearm comes to rest at his head, and Chief Tyrol is holding it. The Chief sarcastically greets the deposed president and pistol-whips him unconscious.
*Raptors are seen flying away from the planet and to ''Galactica''. The battlestar is under full sublight power, escaping from orbit while buying time for the Raptors to land and for the battlestar to prep for an [[FTL]] jump.
*''Galactica'' escapes the remains of the algae planet as the star<nowiki>'</nowiki>s shockwave tears through its system.
*Chief Tyrol and his group unload a body bag from his Raptor onto a gurney. He stops the gurney and discreetly shows Colonel Tigh that Baltar is inside, alive but unconscious. Tigh orders Tyrol to have Baltar taken to the [[brig]].
*Samuel Anders and Kara Thrace reunite. Lee Adama and Dualla, each on opposite sides of Thrace and Anders, see this as well. Adama moves to embrace his wife.
*In a briefing, Tyrol, Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]], Roslin, Admiral Adama and Helo analyze the new supernova and compare it to the Temple's mandala, realizing that the [[Thirteenth Tribe]] must have wanted anyone who followed after them to look for this mandala, or specifically, another supernova. Gaeta finds the remains of a similar supernova over 10,000 light years away, in the [[Ionian system]].
*Helo is fascinated over a picture of the temple's mandala. He makes his way to Kara Thrace's quarters and asks if she had any photos of her old apartment on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]].
*He finds a painting that Thrace had made on one of her apartment's walls. It is virtually identical to the temple's mandala, which was created 4,000 years before. When Thrace sees this, her mood darkens. She tells Helo that she had doodled this symbol often as child because she liked the colors, having no prior source for the symbol. She relates something that a [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] Cylon told her [[Flesh and Bone|over a year before]]: Thrace had a destiny, and, according to Leoben, it was already pre-written.
*On the Resurrection Ship, D'Anna-Three downloads successfully to find a Cavil sitting next to her tank. Cavil notes curiously that at least Three will not have to go through the process of resurrection again, and explains why.
*The other Cylons believe that Three's delusions of messianic intentions have revealed her as an inherently flawed design. Three counters that it is not wrong to seek ones own purpose, that the search for who and why the Cylons were built is an important task.
*The decision has been made to [[boxing|box]] the entire model. Three tells Cavil that he and the others will see the faces of the final five one day, but with a press of a button by Cavil, Three and all of her kind are deactivated.

== Questions ==
* Why did D'Anna die?
* Who did D'Anna recognize as being one of the [[final five]]?
* Why are the identities of the final five kept a secret? Why would the other seven Cylon models not know the identities of the final five, and why would the [[Cavil]] model want to prevent the others from learning about them? Do some or all of the Cylons not '''want''' to know and why would this be so?
* Have we seen the last of [[Number Three]]?
* Does a mechanism exist to revive boxed Cylons, given that their memories and thoughts still exist in cold storage?
* What will become of [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]]?
* What is the connection between Starbuck and the [[Eye of Jupiter]]?
* What is Starbuck's destiny?
* What will President Roslin and Admiral Adama do with Baltar now they he is back in their custody? ([[Taking a Break From All Your Worries|Answer]])
* Has Roslin and Adama's relationship soured now that Adama knows of Roslin's involvement with hiding Hera? ([[Taking a Break From All Your Worries|Answer]])
* What will happen to [[Caprica-Six]] now that she is on ''Galactica''?
* Will there be any consequences to [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]]'s actions?
* Did the Cylons realize the significance between the mandala and the nova?
* With the [[Temple of Five|temple]] destroyed, what is the significance of Baltar being the "chosen one" rather than D'Anna?
* When Cavil told D'Anna to look at the damage that her convictions had done, was he referring to all of the other Threes who had been [[boxing|boxed]], to the Cylons as a whole, or to something else?
* How were the Cylons able to "box" all the Threes? Were they executed or were all resurrected because D'Anna's death triggered their own deaths?
* What did D'Anna mean when she told Baltar that he was right? Was she saying that he was a Cylon or was she referring to something else that he said to her earlier?
* Have any of the [[Number Three]] models escaped the boxing by fleeing for their own survival? Or have they all gone "quietly into the night"?
* Is the "[[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|jealous god]]" of the Colonials, the God of the Cylons, and the god that the Temple of Five was dedicated to, one and the same?
* Why was the temple dedicated to the five priests who served the possible jealous god?
* Will the Colonials discover that Caprica-Six was the Cylon that created the backdoor to the Colonial Defense system? ([[Taking a Break From All Your Worries|Answer]])
* Will Baltar confess his role in the downfall of humanity during his interrogation? ([[Taking a Break From All Your Worries|Answer]])

== Analysis ==
* The [[Final five|five figures in white]] bear a striking resemblance to the occupants of the [[Ship of Lights]] from the [[Original Series]].
* If the device which triggered D'Anna's vision was a viewing mechanism which was programmed when the temple was built, D'Anna's recognition of one of the figures in white would mean that there is some substantial connection between whomever the Temple of Five was dedicated to and the Cylons.
* If the five priests are actually the Final Five (this has not been determined to be more than assumptions), then the Cylons are using ancient genetic templates as indicated by their susceptibility to a virus that the rest of the human race was immune to.
* The basestar command apparently does not require consensus of all models, or need not have them to have a representative at the command center. [[Simon]] and [[Number Five]] are not seen during this episode. Of course, since there were only seven models at the time, four models casting the same vote is decisive. This is exactly what happened when Six, Eight, Leoben and Cavil voted in favor of recalling the Raiders.
* Despite no longer being XO, Helo is still included in high-level briefings. This may reflect another facet to his current duties aside from mere Raptor jockeying (this may also be supported by the fact that he is more often seen in uniform rather than flight suit or fatigues currently).
* The tension between Athena and Boomer reaches a climax when Athena attempts to rescue her daughter. It has become clear that Boomer, like Athena, was presented with two choices, but unlike Athena, did not choose the path that led to forgiveness. Both Eights had suffered persecution from the Colonials. Athena, however, partly due to her love for Helo and Adama, chose to forgive, while Boomer allowed the failure of New Caprica to push her over to the belief that humans and Cylons should go their separate ways.
* Boomer comments that Cavil believes that the Cylons aren't supposed to have children. This is unsurprising, given that model's lack of religious faith and belief that the Cylons shouldn't be emulating humans.
* Caprica-Six continues her defiance against Cylon society by choosing to believe in a possible new future between Cylons and humans. This particular Cylon, ever since her deception that led to fall of humanity, has consistently shown increasingly human traits. Like her decision to save Anders by killing a [[Number Three|Three]] to pave the way for a possible new future between Cylons and humans, her decision to kill Boomer to save Hera echoes those same beliefs.
* The rescue of the people on the [[algae planet]] occurs in an extremely short amount of screen time. This is reminiscent of the short amount of screen time that was given to ''Galactica'' retrieving her fighters before jumping away from the [[Battle of New Caprica]]. As noted in prior podcasts, sometimes there just isn't enough time available in each episode to show everything in detail, which makes it necessary to compress events.
* The survivor count decreased by one at the start of this episode counting the loss of one of the civilian combatants during a gunfight on the planet's surface.
* [[Hera]], according to Caprica-Six, is able to distinguish her mother from the other [[Number Eight|Eights]]. Whether this indicates that Hera inherited a Cylon ability is yet to be seen. At the very least, on an emotional level, Athena and Hera have a mother-daughter bond that does not exist with [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]].
* According to the RDM podcast, Boomer's jealousy and rage developed over time, especially when she became Hera's primary caretaker. When it became apparent that Hera was not responding well to Boomer, she slowly developed a resentment towards Athena, because according to the Cylons, Hera existed because of God's true love. This implicated that the reason that Boomer and [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] were not able to conceive was because they didn't have true love between them. This, and Hera's response once Athena arrives, eventually led to the rage Boomer showed.
* After the initial stand-off ends when Adama decides to not nuke the planet, the defiant Three model states that no one would do such a thing over just one ship. However, ironically, that is exactly what Adama himself fears in "[[Hero]]" when he believes that the one recon fighter that crossed over into Cylon territory was what eventually led to the genocide of humanity.
* Ironically, the boxing of the Threes may actually make consensus harder to come by in the future. Now that the number of known Cylon models is an even six, a true deadlock is possible.
* The removal of the Threes also exaggerates the uneven gender ratio of the known models, from 4 male:3 female to 4 male:2 female.
* Now that Athena had resurrected into a new body, her susceptibility to the [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|Cylon virus]] is in question. Athena was immune because her child gave her body human antibodies to the disease ([[A Measure of Salvation]]). In a new body that has never given birth, a possible reintroduction of the virus could be lethal to Athena. Conversely, Athena's immunity could have become a programming element that downloaded along with the rest of her consciousness, just as the lethal virus could follow the consciousness of an infected humanoid Cylon to a [[Resurrection Ship]], potentially inoculating all Cylons against the virus.
* Three's conversation with Cavil at the end of the episode reveals that the [[humanoid Cylon]]s do not know who programmed them or why.

== Notes ==
* Prior to the airing of this episode, [[James Callis]] revealed that [[Gaius Baltar]] returns to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' in this episode.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.ifmagazine.com/feature.asp?article=1659 |title=Exclusive Interview: JAMES CALLIS SELLS iF MAGAZINE A BILL OF GOODS ON BATTLESTAR GALATICA SEASON 3 -PART 1 |date=2006-09-09 |accessdate=2006-09-09 |last=Elliot |first=Sean |format= |language=English }}</ref>
* According to the [[Podcast:Rapture|RDM podcast]], the [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|image in Kara's apartment]] was a symbol that the actress had decided to paint before the actual shooting occurred.
* Moreover, the ground battle was originally shot more structured. [[Bradley Thompson]] spent time on location to work out the tactics used by both sides to create a realistic engagement. However, that didn't translate on screen. Partly because of the many closeups, most of the terrain looks the same, making it impossible to get an impression of the location of each fire team. As a result the battle was heavily cut and changed in the editing room, to at least make it the most exciting.
* The [[Foliole|cigar box]] from which Helo takes the photo of Starbuck's apartment is the same one she picked up there in "[[Valley of Darkness]]".
* The Eye of Jupiter and Starbuck's artwork bear a strong resemblance to the [[w:Ring Nebula|Ring Nebula]]. However, the order of colors from center to edge is different: blue, white and red for true color images of the actual nebula; blue, red and yellow for the Eye. The actual nebula is also a bit more oval in appearance while the Eye is nearly circular.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Chief Tyrol finds Gaius Baltar standing alone in the Temple of Five:''
:'''Tyrol:''' Welcome home, Mr. President. (Pistol-whips Baltar, knocking him unconscious)

*''Number Three (D'anna Biers) to Cavil in the Temple of Five:''
:'''Number Three:''' This is my destiny. To see what lies between life and death.

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Captain [[Karl Agathon]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Henderson Tyrol]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as Lieutenant [[Anastasia Dualla]]
*[[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Brad Dryborough]] as Lieutenant [[Hoshi]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Alisen Down]] as [[Jean Barolay]]
*[[Eileen Pedde]] as Gunnery Seargant [[Erin Mathias]]
*[[Diego Diablo Del Mar]] as [[Hillard]]
*[[Dean Stockwell]] as [[Cavil]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Aleks Paunovic]] as Sergeant [[Omar Fischer]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size: 85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-12-06T16:35:46Z

Todd: /* Needed Qualifiers for Speculation */

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived content|plausible speculation]] on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

==Needed Qualifiers for Speculation==

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effective infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would have known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of preexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; it is assumed the Cylons had no models advanced enough to plausibly pass as humans (i.e. [[Wikipedia:Android|androids]] and [[Wikipedia:Gynoid|gynoids]]), so if someone is confirmed to have lived during or participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh. Note that apparent age is ''not'' a disqualifer; the Cylon agent model known as [[Cavil]] appears as old as William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect must not have been exposed to the [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|lymphocytic encephalitis virus]].''' The virus is lethal to Cylons with the exception of any Cylon that has been impregnated by a human, e.g. [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]]. Therefore, any member of the boarding party in [[A Measure of Salvation]] (excluding Athena) cannot be a Cylon. This qualifier is not absolute going forward as [[Cottle]] claimed to be able to create a temporary vaccine. So it is possible that a Cylon could survive exposure to the virus in the future, provided they had access to a sufficient supply of the vaccine.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies. Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead'''<ref>In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated, "The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."</ref>.

Please note that [[Wikipedia:retcon|retroactive continuity changes]] are possible in the series<ref>Retconning has occurred previously, from as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between "[[Bastille Day]]" and "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]") or the number of prisoners held aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' (between the [[Miniseries]] and "[[Bastille Day]].").</ref> This article is based on plausible speculation, which is also highly fluid in content and can violate {{tl|NPOV}} policies if taken too far in the extreme.

==Suspected Cylon infiltrators==

===Moderate probability of being a Cylon===

====Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No<ref>While Dualla has mentioned her father in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]," he has not been seen on-screen. The [[Battlestar Wiki:Separate continuity|separate continuity]] character of [[Darrin Dualla]] is not canonical with this qualification.</ref>
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through, the only survivor in the compartment. Cylon agents have often demonstrated the ability to physically damage themselves for a cause, including self-destruction<ref>There are numerous instances in the series, including [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] attack from a copy of Number Six to give plausibilty for [[Helo]], and a suicide-bombing by a [[Number Five]].</ref>. Dualla could have feigned injury to avoid suspicion. Dualla's relationships with members of both government and military command ([[Billy Keikeya]] and [[Lee Adama]]) increase her involvement with secrets in the Fleet.

====Gaius Baltar?====
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: Unknown (described as a close personal friend of [[Richard Adar|President Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Gaius Baltar]]'s odds of being a Cylon are low, but not impossible. The miniseries establishes him as a prominent public figure for years. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human. In "[[Torn]]" [[Caprica-Six]] mentions that she was (and possibly still is) considering to have a child with Baltar, which would appear impossible if he was a Cylon. However, when learning of the Cylon's "projection" abilities in "[[Torn]]" and how they may be related to his vision of Number Six, Baltar himself begins to question whether or not he is a Cylon.

{{spoiltext|Recent information from cast members that portray Cylons suggest a season 3 storyline that indicates that the revealed agents may not know the identity of the five remaining Cylon agents.}}

For more this character's probability, see the article, [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]].

===Low probability of being a Cylon===

====Samuel Anders?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Samuel Anders|Anders]] was a well known public figure as a sports star, although the length of his time in [[Pyramid (RDM)|pyramid sport]] is not known. In "[[Downloaded]]", a copy of [[Number Three]] and [[Caprica-Six]] refer to Anders as human. (see spoiler above)

==== Bell? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

==== Felix Gaeta? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

As tactical officer, [[Felix Gaeta]], being technically minded, is initially fond of [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar's work]]. He admitted to ignoring the [[Cylon transponder|Cylon device]] found below the [[DRADIS]] console in the [[Miniseries]], believing it to be part of the new [[Galactica Museum|museum]]. Gaeta neglects an update to [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the Fleet ([[Scattered]]), and proposes creating a [[Computers|computer]] network to fix the matter, leaving the ship vulnerable (and compromised twice).

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] as Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with "Boomer" Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Saul Tigh confirms that he has worked with Gaeta for 4 years ([[Collaborators]]).

Gaeta chose to stay with Baltar's puppet administrator on New Caprica to feed inside information to the resistance, which Galen Tyrol confirms ("[[Occupation]]," "[[Precipice]]," "[[Collaborators]]"). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction. Further, it would be illogical for Gaeta not to reveal himself as a Cylon once the occupation of New Caprica was completed.

====Cally Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]] shoots "Boomer" Valerii in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Henderson had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hates Boomer for her association with Chief Tyrol and for her betrayal in shooting Adama.

Henderson is married to Galen Tyrol and has a son, [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3. Given the magnitude of problems in creating Cylon or Cylon/human offspring, Cally Tyrol's pregnancy is a substantially powerful disqualifier as an agent.

====Galen Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with "Boomer" Valerii, and later has recurring nightmares based on his fear of being a Cylon sleeper agent. Having served under Commander Adama for 5 years, Adama noted that, if Tyrol was a Cylon, he has had plenty of resources and opportunity to destroy the battlestar.

Galen and Cally Tyrol's child, [[Nicholas Tyrol]], all but removes suspicion for this character, given the difficulties in Cylon- or Cylon/human conception.

===Characters eliminated from suspicion===

The following characters are disproven from any possibility of being Cylon agents.

====Lee "Apollo" Adama====
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None<ref>There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. Battlestar Wiki does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.</ref> 

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. At the start of the Miniseries, Commander Adama is given a photo of his two young sons from the [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|Fleet archives]]. The complexity of creating a false family unit is not uncommon with Cylon agents, but Commander Adama's own role in the Cylon War reinforces the high odds against a Cylon ruse using Lee Adama. No information has been given that Cylon agents age as humans do, increasing the probability against a ruse. William Adama has, naturally, known his son since birth.

The episode "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father in events weeks before the Cylon attack. Such a pregnancy goes against the extreme difficulties of Cylon-human conception.

A further point against the possibility of Apollo being a Cylon agent is that in "[[A Measure of Salvation]]" he was exposed to a virus which is lethal to Cylons but cannot infect humans, and he did not sicken.

====William Adama====
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama knows that the Cylon's "[[Silica Pathways|silica pathways]]" would be affected by the EM discharges around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. While copies of [[Leoben Conoy]] and [[Number Five]] show signs of being affected after several hours in the cloud, Adama did not show symptoms after hours of exposure.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of [[Sharon Agathon]]'s hybrid child, the Cylons are unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

====Karl "Helo" Agathon====
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (Kara Thrace)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Valerii]]. The aired events of season 1 on occupied Caprica that show the Cylon's manipulation of Helo and Caprica-Valerii to foster conception confirms that Helo is human.

As mentioned in "[[Scattered]]", Helo and Starbuck have known each other for a number of years, though how many years their friendship has been is indeterminate.

====Helena Cain====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Commander Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

The character is also [[Resurrection Ship, Part II|dead]], which removes her from suspicion unless another Cain appears in a future episode in "current" time.

==== Billy Keikeya ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

==== James "Jammer" Lyman ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Jammer dies in the episode "[[Collaborators]]." Since only Cylons can "return from the dead," Jammer is removed from suspicion unless he returns in "current time" (outside of a flashback).

====Laura Roslin====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the [[Hera|Cylon-human hybrid]] fetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

====Kara "Starbuck" Thrace====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family, Karl Agathon)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/human hybrid experiments. It would be illogical to take genetic material from another Cylon agent.

Thrace's association with [[Zak Adama]] occurred over two years prior to the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]). Additionally, as mentioned in "[[Scattered]]", Starbuck and Helo have known each other for a number of years, though how many years their friendship has been is indeterminate.

==== Ellen Tigh ====
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Ellen Tigh dies in the episode "Exodus, Pt. II." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Ellen Tigh as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless she returns outside of a flashback in present time.

====Saul Tigh====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

====Tom Zarek====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and initially opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron, which Zarek refused.

As Vice President under Gaius Baltar, Zarek refused to collaborate with the Cylon occupation ([[Precipice]]), is incarcerated for months after the takeover, and is nearly killed in an aborted mass execution attempt at [[Pergamus Flats]] on [[New Caprica]]. It would be illogical for Zarek to remain concealed as a Cylon once the occupation began.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-11-13T19:53:54Z

Todd: /* Character Elimination. */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-26T15:52:30Z

Todd: /* "Cylon on Cylon violence" */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-26T13:42:29Z

Todd: /* "Cylon on Cylon violence" */

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-10-23T14:05:23Z

Todd: /* James "Jammer" Lyman? */ fixed typo and added link

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived content|plausible speculation]] on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

==Needed Qualifiers for Speculation==

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effective infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would have known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of preexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; the Cylons definitely didn't have humanoid models during the First Cylon War{{citation needed}}, so if someone is confirmed to have lived during or participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh. Note that apparent age is ''not'' a disqualifer; the Cylon agent model known as [[Cavil]] appears as old as William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies. Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead'''<ref>In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated, "The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."</ref>.

Please note that [[Wikipedia:retcon|retroactive continuity changes]] are possible in the series<ref>Retconning has occurred previously, from as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between "[[Bastille Day]]" and "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]") or the number of prisoners held aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' (between the [[Miniseries]] and "[[Bastille Day]].").</ref> This article is based on plausible speculation, which is also highly fluid in content and can violate {{tl|NPOV}} policies if taken too far in the extreme.

==Suspected Cylon infiltrators==

===Moderate probability of being a Cylon===

====Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No<ref>While Dualla has mentioned her father in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]," he has not been seen on-screen. The [[Battlestar Wiki:Separate continuity|separate continuity]] character of [[Darrin Dualla]] is not canonical with this qualification.</ref>
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through, the only survivor in the compartment. Cylon agents have often demonstrated the ability to physically damage herself for a cause, including self-destruction<ref>There are numerous instances in the series, including [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] attack from a copy of Number Six to give plausibilty for [[Helo]], and a suicide-bombing by a [[Number Five]].</ref>. Dualla could've faked an injury to throw suspicion. Dualla's relationships with members of both government and military command ([[Billy Keikeya]] and [[Lee Adama]]) increase her involvement with secrets in the Fleet.

==== Felix Gaeta? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

As tactical officer, [[Felix Gaeta]], being technically minded, is initially fond of [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar's work]]. He admitted to ignoring the [[Cylon transponder|Cylon device]] found below the [[DRADIS]] console in the [[Miniseries]], believing it to be part of the new [[Galactica Museum|museum]]. Gaeta neglects an update to [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the Fleet ([[Scattered]]), and proposes creating a [[Computers|computer]] network to fix the matter, leaving the ship vulnerable (and compromised twice).

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] as Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with "Boomer" Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction.

==== James "Jammer" Lyman? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[James Lyman|Jammer]] consistently makes remarks that seem to be trying to divide the humans against each other. When it was revealed to the Fleet that Cylons now can look like humans in "[[Litmus]]", he kept arguing that everyone should stop trusting each other and that it was "every man for himself now", while Socinus said that if they didn't trust each other they wouldn't survive.
Cally points out that Jammer's kind of thinking is ''exactly'' what the Cylons want: for everyone to become suspicious and paranoid.
In the second season, as Tyrol is accused of being a Cylon in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]" he tells Cally that Tyrol must be a Cylon. Whenever Jammer appears he seems to be trying to sow mistrust among the crew. Also, he told the emotionally unstable Cally that she should be angry at "Boomer" (the first Sharon Valerii copy) not himself, for Tyrol's plight, which infers Jammer manipulates Cally into killing Boomer.

In the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]," Jammer is found alone, unharmed, in a small arms locker, but every other human (including some with Jammer in the locker) are dead. He claims to have just hid, then snuck inside the locker.

Before the fight to protect [[Aft Damage Control]], Captain Adama says a phrase of his [[William Adama|father's]]: "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Jammer asks what this means, and Adama explains. To date, no aired episode explains where [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]], a known agent, learns of this phrase, which she uses in a pressing situation in her efforts to defend ''Galactica'' in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]." Unwittingly, it is plausible that Valerii's knowledge of this phrase (and its origin) came from Jammer via the vague but tangible collective knowledge database of the Cylon agents. However, it is also extremely plausible that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii]] heard this phrase sometime prior to her memories being copied into Caprica-Valerii.

Jammer's pessimistic, counterproductive, and morale-draining behavior appears during construction of the [[Blackbird]], telling the other deckhands that it couldn't be done and it wasn't worth trying.

In selected [[webisodes]], Jammer talks with [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] about the proposed [[New Caprica Police]]. To Duck's disgust, Jammer replies "Some people say it's a good thing... Get the Centurions off the streets, let us patrol them ourselves," tentatively advocating the Cylons' agenda. The statement is ambiguous, however, as Jammer may have been testing Duck for inclusion in the resistance cell. Jammer later advises Galen Tyrol not to be angry about Duck's refusal to join and to give up on recruiting him.

Jammer balks at hiding weapons in the [[temple]] on [[New Caprica]] and is overruled by Colonel Tigh. Jammer complains against Tigh for his callous attitudes toward the innocents killed at the temple after the Cylons stormed it to seize the weapons.

He is brought in for questioning by [[Aaron Doral]] at a Cylon detention center, much to Tigh's concern. However, while in the detention center he exhibits genuine fear and anxiety. If Jammer is a Cylon agent, he is a "sleeper," unaware of his true nature, as "Boomer" Valerii once was.

In "[[Occupation]]" Jammer stands behind [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] as Duck detonates a bomb at the [[NCP]] graduation. Jammer is later seen unharmed. It seems quite unlikely that any human could have survived the blast at such close proximity<ref> Ron D. Moore goes to great length during the podcast for this episode to say that scenes of Jammer pushing his way out of the rubble were cut due to time constraints.</ref>.

==== Ellen Tigh? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

Ellen Tigh's statistically-defying survival of the Cylon holocaust in "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" raised viewer suspicions (and those of the characters themselves) from her introduction. During Commander [[William Adama]]'s incapacitation ([[Scattered]] through [[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), [[Ellen Tigh]]'s manipulation of her husband against the needs of the Fleet are frequent. If she ''is'' a Cylon looking to destroy the Fleet from within, then the best weapon in her arsenal is the man she's married to.

In an October 2005 webcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicated that the likelihood of Ellen Tigh being a Cylon was low. Essentially, this was due to the feeling that having her be a Cylon agent would not only be convenient, but unrealistic from a story point-of-view as well, given the character's many other complexities, which would stretch the character's believability. Moore's comments don't eliminate Ellen Tigh from consideration, but reduces the likelihood of this speculation.

Ellen Tigh celebrated her seventh wedding anniversary with Saul Tigh in a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/deleted1.html deleted scene] from the episode "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]". If the canonicity of this scene stands, then Tigh's likelihood of being an agent drops dramatically.

In the preview clip for "[[Occupation]]", Tigh is shown having sex with a [[Cavil]], in exchange for her husband's release from captivity. While her motivations are implicit, there is no information that suggests that Cylons aren't sexual amongst themselves.

===Low probability of being a Cylon===

====Samuel Anders?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Samuel Anders|Anders]] was a well known public figure as a sports star, although the length of his time in [[Pyramid (RDM)|pyramid sport]] is not known. In "[[Downloaded]]", a copy of [[Number Three]] and [[Caprica-Six]] refer to Anders as human. (see spoiler below)

====Gaius Baltar?====
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Gaius Baltar]]'s odds of being a Cylon are low, but not impossible. The miniseries establishes him as a prominent public figure for years. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human.

{{spoiltext|Recent information from cast members that portray Cylons suggest a season 3 storyline that indicates that the revealed agents may not know the identity of the five remaining Cylon agents.}}

For more this character's probability, see the article, [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]].

==== Bell? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

====Cally Tyrol====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]] shoots "Boomer" Valerii in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Henderson had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hates Boomer for her association with Chief Tyrol and for her betrayal in shooting Adama.

Henderson is married to Galen Tyrol and has a son, [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3. Given the magnitude of problems in creating Cylon or Cylon/human offspring, Cally Tyrol's pregnancy is a substantially powerful disqualifier as an agent.

====Galen Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with "Boomer" Valerii, and later has recurring nightmares based on his fear of being a Cylon sleeper agent. Having served under Commander Adama for 5 years, Adama noted that, if Tyrol was a Cylon, he has had plenty of resources and opportunity to destroy the battlestar.

Galen and Cally Tyrol's child, [[Nicholas Tyrol]], all but removes suspicion for this character, given the difficulties in Cylon- or Cylon/human conception.

===Characters eliminated from suspicion===

The following characters are disproven from any possibility of being Cylon agents.

====Lee "Apollo" Adama====
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None<ref>There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. Battlestar Wiki does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.</ref> 

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. At the start of the Miniseries, Commander Adama is given a photo of his two young sons from the [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|Fleet archives]]. The complexity of creating a false family unit is not uncommon with Cylon agents, but Commander Adama's own role in the Cylon War reinforces the high odds against a Cylon ruse using Lee Adama. No information has been given that Cylon agents age as humans do, increasing the probability against a ruse. William Adama has, naturally, known his son since birth.

The episode "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father in events weeks before the Cylon attack. Such a pregnancy goes against the extreme difficulties of Cylon-human conception.

====William Adama====
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama knows that the Cylon's "[[Silica Pathways|silica pathways]]" would be affected by the EM discharges around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. While copies of [[Leoben Conoy]] and [[Number Five]] show signs of being affected after several hours in the cloud, Adama did not show symptoms after hours of exposure.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of [[Sharon Agathon]]'s hybrid child, the Cylons are unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

====Karl "Helo" Agathon====
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Valerii]]. The aired events of season 1 on occupied Caprica that show the Cylon's manipulation of Helo and Caprica-Valerii to foster conception confirms that Helo is human.

====Helena Cain====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Commander Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

==== Billy Keikeya ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

====Laura Roslin====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the Cylon-Human hybrid fetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

====Kara "Starbuck" Thrace====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/Human hybrid experiments. It would be illogical to take genetic material from another Cylon agent.

Thrace's association with [[Zak Adama]] occurred over two years prior to the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]).

====Saul Tigh====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

====Tom Zarek====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron and Zarek refused. Due to being such a publicly known figure for so many decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-20T15:04:25Z

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2006-10-20T14:45:55Z

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2006-10-19T16:36:54Z

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2006-10-19T16:19:32Z

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2006-10-18T21:57:18Z

Todd: /* Jammer as Cylon speculation */

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-10-13T19:47:50Z

Todd: /* Needed Qualifiers for Speculation */ typos

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived content|plausible speculation]] on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

=Needed Qualifiers for Speculation=

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effective infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would have known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of preexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; the Cylons definitely didn't have humanoid models during the First Cylon War{{citation needed}}, so if someone is confirmed to have participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh. Note that apparent age is ''not'' a disqualifer; the Cylon agent model known as [[Cavil]] appears as old as William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies.

Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead'''<ref>In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated, "The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."</ref>.

Please note that [[Wikipedia:retcon|retroactive continuity changes]] are possible in the series<ref>Retconning has occurred previously, from as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between "[[Bastille Day]]" and "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]") or the number of prisoners held aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' (between the [[Miniseries]] and "[[Bastille Day]].").</ref> This article is based on plausible speculation, which is also highly fluid in content and can violate {{tl|NPOV}} policies if taken too far in the extreme.

=Suspected Cylon infiltrators=
==High probability of being a Cylon==
=== James "Jammer" Lyman? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' High

*Jammer consistently makes remarks that seem to be trying to divide the humans against each other. When it was revealed to the Fleet that Cylons now can look like humans in "[[Litmus]]", he kept arguing that everyone should stop trusting each other and that it was "every man for himself now", while Socinus said that if they didn't trust each other they wouldn't survive.
Cally points out that Jammer's kind of thinking is ''exactly'' what the Cylons want: for everyone to become suspicious and paranoid.
In the second season, as Tyrol is accused of being a Cylon in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]" he tells Cally that Tyrol must be a Cylon. Whenever Jammer appears he seems to be trying to sow mistrust among the crew. Also, he told the emotionally unstable Cally that she should be angry at "Boomer" (the first Sharon Valerii copy) not himself, for Tyrol's plight, which infers Jammer manipulates Cally into killing Boomer.

In the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]," Jammer is found alone, unharmed, in a small arms locker, but every other human (including some with Jammer in the locker) are dead. He claims to have just hid, then snuck inside the locker.

Before the fight to protect [[Aft Damage Control]], Captain Adama says a phrase of his [[William Adama|father's]]: "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Jammer asks what this means, and Adama explains. To date, no aired episode explains where [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]], a known agent, learns of this phrase, which she uses in a pressing situation in her efforts to defend ''Galactica'' in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]." Unwittingly, it is plausible that Valerii's knowledge of this phrase (and its origin) came from Jammer via the vague but tangible collective knowledge database of the Cylon agents. However, it is also plausible that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii]] heard this phrase sometime prior to her memories being copied into Caprica-Valerii.

Jammer's pessimistic, counterproductive, and morale-draining behavior appears during construction of the [[Blackbird]], telling the other deckhands that it couldn't be done and it wasn't worth trying.

In selected [[webisodes]], Jammer talks with [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] about the proposed [[New Caprica Police]]. To Duck's disgust, Jammer replies "Some people say it's a good thing... Get the Centurions off the streets, let us patrol them ourselves," tentatively advocating the Cylons' agenda. The statement is ambiguous, however, as Jammer may have been testing Duck for inclusion in the resistance cell. Jammer later advises Galen Tyrol not to be angry about Duck's refusal to join and to give up on recruiting him.

Jammer balks at hiding weapons in the [[temple]] on [[New Caprica]] and is overruled by Colonel Tigh. Jammer complains against Tigh for his callous attitudes toward the innocents killed at the temple after the Cylons stormed it to seize the weapons.

He is brought in for questioning by [[Aaron Doral]] at a Cylon detention center, much to Tigh's concern. However, while in the detention center he exhibits genuine fear and anxiety. If Jammer is an Cylon agent, he is a "sleeper," unaware of his true nature, as "Boomer" Valerii once was.

In "[[Occupation]]" Jammer stands behind [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] as Duck detonates a bomb at the [[NCP]] graduation. Jammer is later seen unharmed. It seems quite unlikely that any human could have survived the blast at such close proximity<ref> Ron D. Moore goes to great length during the podcast for this episode to say that scenes of Jammer pushing his way out of the rubble were cut due to time constraints.</ref>.

==Moderate probability of being a Cylon==
===Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No<ref>While Dualla has mentioned her father in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]," he has not been seen on-screen. The [[Battlestar Wiki:Separate continuity|separate continuity]] character of [[Darrin Dualla]] is not canonical with this qualification.</ref>
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through, the only survivor in the compartment. Cylon agents have often demonstrated the ability to physically damage herself for a cause, including self-destruction<ref>There are numerous instances in the series, including [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] attack from a copy of Number Six to give plausibilty for [[Helo]], and a suicide-bombing by a [[Number Five]].</ref>. Dualla could've faked an injury to throw suspicion. Dualla's relationships with members of both government and military command ([[Billy Keikeya]] and [[Lee Adama]]) increase her involvement with secrets in the Fleet.

=== Felix Gaeta? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

As tactical officer, [[Felix Gaeta]], being technically minded, is initially fond of [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar's work]]. He admitted to ignoring the [[Cylon transponder|Cylon device]] found below the [[DRADIS]] console in the [[Miniseries]], believing it to be part of the new [[Galactica Museum|museum]]. Gaeta neglects an update to [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the Fleet ([[Scattered]]), and proposes creating a [[Computers|computer]] network to fix the matter, leaving the ship vulnerable (and compromised twice).

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] as Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with "Boomer" Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction.

=== Ellen Tigh? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

Ellen Tigh's statistically-defying survival of the Cylon holocaust in "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" raised viewer suspicions (and those of the characters themselves) from her introduction. During Commander [[William Adama]]'s incapacitation ([[Scattered]] through [[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), [[Ellen Tigh]]'s manipulation of her husband against the needs of the Fleet are frequent. If she ''is'' a Cylon looking to destroy the Fleet from within, then the best weapon in her arsenal is the man she's married to.

In an October 2005 webcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicated that the likelihood of Ellen Tigh being a Cylon was low. Essentially, this was due to the feeling that having her be a Cylon agent would not only be convenient, but unrealistic from a story point-of-view as well, given the character's many other complexities, which would stretch the character's believability. Moore's comments don't eliminate Ellen Tigh from consideration, but reduces the likelihood of this speculation.

Ellen Tigh celebrated her seventh wedding anniversary with Saul Tigh in a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/deleted1.html deleted scene] from the episode "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]". If the canonicity of this scene stands, then Tigh's likelihood of being an agent drops dramatically.

In the preview clip for "[[Occupation]]", Tigh is shown having sex with a [[Cavil]], in exchange for her husband's release from captivity. While her motivations are implicit, there is no information that suggests that Cylons aren't sexual amongst themselves.

==Low probability of being a Cylon==
===Gaius Baltar?===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Gaius Baltar]]'s odds of being a Cylon are low, but not impossible. The miniseries establishes him as a prominent public figure for years. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human.

{{spoiltext|Recent information from cast members that portray Cylons suggest a season 3 storyline that indicates that the revealed agents may not know the identity of the five remaining Cylon agents.}}

For more this character's probability, see the article, [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]].

=== Bell? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

===Cally Tyrol===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]] shoots "Boomer" Valerii in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Henderson had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hates Boomer for her association with Chief Tyrol and for her betrayal in shooting Adama.

Henderson is married to Galen Tyrol and has a son, [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3. Given the magnitude of problems in creating Cylon or Cylon/human offspring, Cally Tyrol's pregnancy is a substantially powerful disqualifier as an agent.

===Galen Tyrol?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with "Boomer" Valerii, and later has recurring nightmares based on his fear of being a Cylon sleeper agent. Having served under Commander Adama for 5 years, Adama noted that, if Tyrol was a Cylon, he has had plenty of resources and opportunity to destroy the battlestar.

Galen and Cally Tyrol's child, [[Nicholas Tyrol]], all but removes suspicion for this character, given the difficulties in Cylon- or Cylon/human conception.

=Characters eliminated from suspicion=

The following characters are disproven from any possibility of being Cylon agents.

=== Billy Keikeya ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

===Lee "Apollo" Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None<ref>There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. Battlestar Wiki does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.</ref> 

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. At the start of the Miniseries, Commander Adama is given a photo of his two young sons from the [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|Fleet archives]]. The complexity of creating a false family unit is not uncommon with Cylon agents, but Commander Adama's own role in the Cylon War reinforces the high odds against a Cylon ruse using Lee Adama. No information has been given that Cylon agents age as humans do, increasing the probability against a ruse. William Adama has, naturally, known his son since birth.

The episode "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father in events weeks before the Cylon attack. Such a pregnancy goes against the extreme difficulties of Cylon-human conception.

===William Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama knows that the Cylon's "[[Silica Pathways|silica pathways]]" would be affected by the EM discharges around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. While copies of [[Leoben Conoy]] and [[Number Five]] show signs of being affected after several hours in the cloud, Adama did not show symptoms after hours of exposure.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of [[Sharon Agathon]]'s hybrid child, the Cylons are unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Karl "Helo" Agathon===
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Valerii]]. The aired events of season 1 on occupied Caprica that show the Cylon's manipulation of Helo and Caprica-Valerii to foster conception confirms that Helo is human.

===Samuel Anders===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Samuel Anders|Anders]] was a well known public figure as a sports star, although the length of his time in [[Pyramid (RDM)|pyramid sport]] is not known. In "[[Downloaded]]", a copy of [[Number Three]] and [[Caprica-Six]] refer to Anders as human.

===Helena Cain===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Commander Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

===Laura Roslin===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the Cylon-Human hybrid fetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

===Kara "Starbuck" Thrace===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/Human hybrid experiments. It would be illogical to take genetic material from another Cylon agent.

Thrace's association with [[Zak Adama]] occurred over two years prior to the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]).

===Saul Tigh===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Tom Zarek===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron and Zarek refused. Due to being such a publicly known figure for so many decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.

=References=
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-10-13T15:58:23Z

Todd: Age is not a qualifer

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details plausible speculation on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

=Needed Qualifiers for Speculation=

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effectively infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of prexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; the Cylons definitely didn't have humanoid models during the First Cylon War{{citation needed}}, so if someone is confirmed to have participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies.

Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead:''' In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated that:

:"The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."

Moore and the writers could always, of course, change their minds about anything not specifically established within the canon if needed. There is even precedent for retconning facts established within the canon itself, such as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between [[Bastille Day]] and [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]) or the number of prisoners held aboard the [[Astral Queen]] (between the [[Miniseries]] and [[Bastille Day]].) Nonetheless, based on the qualifiers yet established, each assessment below is marked accordingly with their probability of being a Cylon infiltrator.

=Suspected Cylon infiltrators=
==High probability of being a Cylon==
=== James "Jammer" Lyman? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' High

[[James Lyman|James "Jammer" Lyman‎]] has exhibited suspicious actions numerous times. Along with [[Cally]] and [[Socinus]], he serves under Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] on the [[hangar deck]]. Jammer consistently makes remarks that seem to be trying to divide the humans against each other. When it was revealed to the Fleet that Cylons now can look like humans in "[[Litmus]]", he kept arguing that everyone should stop trusting each other and that it was "every man for himself now", while Socinus said that if they didn't trust each other they wouldn't survive. Cally even pointed out that Jammer's kind of thinking is ''exactly'' what the Cylons want: for everyone to become suspicious and paranoid. Jammer keeps doing this through the second season: when Tyrol is accused of being a Cylon in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]" he immediately yells at Cally that the Chief must be a Cylon. Whenever Jammer appears he seems to be trying to sow mistrust among the crew. Also, he told the emotionally unstable Cally that she should be angry at "Boomer" (the first Sharon Valerii copy) not himself, for Tyrol's being suspected, and that she should take it up with Boomer. Jammer can then be seen as having manipulated Cally into killing Boomer (Cally need not be a Cylon; Jammer could tell she was suffering from post-traumatic stress after Kobol and that she would go after Boomer if he suggested it to her).

Two of the biggest pieces of evidence against Jammer appear in the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]."

#Apollo and his group of marines found Jammer hiding in a small arms locker, completely unharmed, although the room was littered with the corpses of crewmen the Cylons had killed. He claims to have just hid then snuck inside, but perhaps he was already there and the Centurions spared him because they knew he was a Cylon as well. [[Anastasia Dualla]] was also found alive in a room filled with dead crewmen, but she was in the lavatory, which isn't a vital area of the ship, while Jammer was in a small arms locker. Further, Dualla was wounded; she had a light concussion and presumably a Centurion knocked her unconscious, assumed she was dead, and moved on. Jammer was just standing around inside of the weapons locker.
#Before the fight to protect [[Aft Damage Control]], Captain Adama says a phrase of his father's: "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Jammer asks what this means, and Adama explains. To date, no aired episode explains where [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]], a known agent, learns of this phrase, which she uses in a pressing situation in her efforts to defend ''Galactica'' in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]." Unwittingly, it is plausible that Valerii's knowledge of this phrase (and its origin) came from Jammer via the vague but tangible collective knowledge database of the Cylon agents. However, it is also plausible that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Valerii]] heard this phrase sometime prior to her memories being copied into Caprica-Valerii.

Jammer continues to exhibit pessimistic, counterproductive, and morale-draining behavior. When Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] was trying to construct the [[Blackbird]], he vocally tried to convince the other deckhands that it couldn't be done and it wasn't worth trying. He may have done this to undermine the military assets of ''Galactica'': the Cylons may be hoping to wear down ''Galactica's'' Viper numbers through gradual attrition, while because the Cylons have dedicated manufacturing capabilities for Raiders on the [[Cylon homeworld]] and possibly on basestars, Raiders are easily replaceable. With this in mind, the last thing the Cylons would want is for ''Galactica'' to start constructing her own replacement fighters ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

Jammer's suspicious behavior extends through the first two [[webisodes]], as he talks with [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] about the proposed [[New Caprica Police]]. To Duck's disgust, Jammer replies "Some people say it's a good thing... Get the Centurions off the streets, let us patrol them ourselves," tentatively advocating the Cylons' agenda. Of course, this statement is ambiguous, as Jammer is ostensibly "feeling out" Duck for recruitment into Tyrol and Tigh's resistance cell, so his pro-Cylon idea could just be a tactic to draw Duck's opinion out further.

Jammer also advises Tyrol not to be angry about Duck's refusal to join and to give up on recruiting him. Jammer balks at hiding weapons in the [[temple]] on [[New Caprica]] as well, although he is overruled by Tigh. Later on, he rails against Tigh for his callous attitudes toward the innocents killed at the temple after the Cylons stormed it to seize the weapons. He is brought in for questioning by [[Aaron Doral]] at a Cylon detention center, much to Tigh's concern. However, while in the detention center he exhibits genuine fear and anxiety, indicating that if he is a Cylon agent then he is not aware of it.

Another piece of evidence occurs in "[[Occupation]]." At the [[New Caprica Police]] graduation, Jammer stands behind [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] as Duck detonates a bomb. Jammer is later seen unharmed. Ronald Moore goes to great length during his podcast to say that scenes of Jammer pushing his way out of the rubble were cut due to time constraints. However, it seems quite unlikely that any human could have survived the blast.

==Moderate probability of being a Cylon==
===Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through. The Centurions killed everyone else, and it does seem plausible that one merely swiped her in the head, knocking her out, and thus thought she was dead and moved on. However, it still seems odd that she was the only survivor. In addition, Number Six later demonstrated in "[[Downloaded]]" how she was willing to physically damage herself in order to manipulate ''Galactica''-Sharon's sympathy: perhaps Dualla hit ''herself'' in the head, to fake an injury, thus throwing suspicion off of herself. Dualla started a relationship with President Roslin's aide, Billy Keikeya, possibly to gain a foothold in the president's office, and then began a relationship with Lee Adama, CAG of ''Galactica'' and son of the military commander of the entire fleet. Eventually, Apollo was promoted to ''Pegasus'' commander and Dualla left ''Galactica'' to marry him and become his XO, further insinuating herself into the command structure.

=== Felix Gaeta? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]] is in a good position for a Cylon—not conspicuous but nonetheless in a position where he can help the Cylons quite a bit. Gaeta arguably seems to hand something to Boomer in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]" before she shoots Adama (a frame by frame analysis shows that their hands are not in frame dispite the camera intentionally panning down when he shakes her hand, leaving the question unanswered). However, he did not hand her a gun, because pilots always carry sidearms, and she walked into CIC with it. Gaeta can recognize Cylon devices, and is close to [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]]. He admitted to ignoring the Cylon device installed on his console in the [[miniseries]], explaining that he thought it was unimportant. Gaeta has plotted coordinates to a water planet, a Cylon [[tyllium]] base, and [[Kobol]] with uncanny accuracy. He "forgot" to send updated [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the fleet in "[[Scattered]]", leaving ''Galactica'' vulnerable to Cylon electronic attack after having to network the ship [[Computers|computer]] systems together. In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" Gaeta helps the Cylon cause by uncovering the ballot tampering which leads to the election of Gaius.

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] since Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with Boomer, the ''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

In the end, Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction.

=== Ellen Tigh? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

In light of her statistic-defying survival of the Cylon holocaust and her manipulations of her husband during Commander [[William Adama]]'s incapacitation ([[Scattered]] through [[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), [[Ellen Tigh]]'s actions have demonstrated the possibility that she may be a Cylon agent. For someone who seems so intelligent and far-sighted, she should be well aware that pushing her husband to strong-arm the rest of the Fleet to conform with his (and her) views would only end in chaos. If she ''is'' a Cylon looking to destroy the Fleet from within, then the best weapon in her arsenal is the man she's married to.

In an October 2005 webcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicated that the likelihood of Ellen Tigh being a Cylon was low. Essentially, this was due to the feeling that having her be a Cylon agent would not only be convenient, but unrealistic from a story point-of-view as well. Moore's comments don't eliminate Ellen Tigh from consideration, but reduces the likelihood of this speculation. Some viewers surmise that Moore may have meant that revealing Tigh as a Cylon in her [[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|debut episode]] in addition to the character's many other complexities, would stretch the overall believability or integrity of the character at that point, but that he was not refering to her actual status as a Cylon or not at the time.

Ellen Tigh's celebrated her seventh wedding anniversary with Saul Tigh in a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/deleted1.html deleted scene] from the episode "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]". If the canonicity of this scene stands, then Ellen's likelihood of being an agent drops dramatically. Else, the establishment of their wedding "date" should aid in increasing or reducing speculation on this intriguing character.

In the preview clip for "[[Occupation]]", Ellen is shown having sex with a Cavil, in exchange for her husband's release for captivity. This, on the surface, would seem to be the firmest possible evidence that Ellen is not, in fact, a Cylon. However, it has not firmly been established that Cylons do not have sex amongst themselves for pleasure; and even if they do not, this incident might simply be a ploy to further cement her position (such as it is) among the human population. (Ironically enough, this incident of infidelity is probably the nicest, most-spouselike thing Ellen has done for Tigh since her arrival.)

==Low probability of being a Cylon==
===Gaius Baltar?===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Very low

There is very low chance that [[Gaius Baltar]] is actually a Cylon. He has been a prominent public figure for years. Number Six earnestly wanted to have a hybrid child with him as the biological father and her as the biological mother, but had to change her plans to ''considering'' [[Hera]] to be "their child" even though it is not biologically theirs. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human.

To review a detailed breakdown of the whys and whatfors of the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon, see [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]]

=== Bell? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

===Tory Foster?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

[[Tory Foster]]'s past is unconfirmed, and she seemed eager to work her way into President Roslin's administration. The odds that another aide with skills like Billy Keikeya would also happen to be alive in the Fleet is also tenuous.

===Cally Henderson Tyrol===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Henderson Tyrol|Cally]] shot Boomer in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Cally had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hated Boomer for what she did to Chief Tyrol, hated her for betraying all of their trust and shooting Adama, and simply because she was a Cylon. Indeed, many other characters in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" ''congratulate'' Cally and say they would have done the same given the chance. Little can be confirmed about Cally's past, but this has not pointed to any Cylon origin. Finally, Cally has given birth to Tyrol's child [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3, meaning it is impossible for them both to be Cylons and improbable in the extreme that either of them is.

=== Billy Keikeya? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Billy Keikeya]] might also be a Cylon due to the relative lack of confirmation surrounding his character. In a deleted scene in the Miniseries, it is revealed that Roslin met Billy for the first time when she boarded Colonial One to travel to Galactica; thus he presence can only be "confirmed" immediately before the attack, far short of even the 2 years that Number Six and Boomer had infiltrated the Colonies. Virtually nothing can be confirmed about Billy; although he states in the Miniseries that his parents and siblings were living on Picon when it was nuked, we really only have his word for it and no way to confirm that these were actual facts. Everyone just takes Billy's word for it. Billy has also stated (in deleted scenes in "[[Home, Part II]]") that he is an atheist. Again, he could simply be behaving based on implanted false memories that form a fake personality crafted by the Cylons, and it would be an ironic twist if an atheist character was revealed to belong to a race of religious zealots. That being said, the most recently revealed Cylon agent, [[Cavil]], also exhibits atheistic or agnostic tendencies, explicitly stating that "there is no [[God]]" when interrogated by Roslin and Adama.

Billy could be a Cylon that was sent to keep tabs on Laura Roslin during the attack; Roslin was a viable target due to her status as a high-ranking government official. In an interesting deleted scene in "[[Fragged]]" Billy appears in one of Roslin's dreams as a manifestation of her own doubts and fears. In the dream he antagonistically taunts her for her faith in the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and [[Kara Thrace]] then stabs her in the heart with a knife after which she wakes up screaming in terror. Given the prophetic connotations of Roslin's previous dreams and visions this could ''possibly'' be taken as evidence for Keikeya being a Cylon, however like most deleted material its canonicity is tentative at best.

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

===Galen Tyrol?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with Boomer, and later had recurring nightmares based on his fear that he might also be a Cylon sleeper agent. However, he has served under William Adama on ''Galactica'' for 5 years, and as Adama put it, had he been a Cylon and they wanted the ship to be destroyed, he more than knew how to do it, and should have ''already'' done it by this point. Tyrol and Cally's child, born as of season 3, all but removes suspicion for this character (love does allow human-Cylon pregnancies to occur, however).

=Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons=
The following characters, for individual reasons below, have been disproven from any possibility of being humanoid Cylon sleeper agents.

===Lee "Apollo" Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. Evidence from [[Sharon Valerii]]'s and [[Number Six]]'s conversations indicate that humanoid Cylon infiltration began no earlier than 2 years prior to the events of the [[Miniseries]], although their respective backstories may suggest they have been "alive" for many years. As Lee Adama was alive long before this introduction, and his father knew him since he was born and can thus confirm this, the probability that Lee Adama is a Cylon is as low as that of his father.

Information from the episode, "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father to a child he conceived on Caprica, but he left the unborn child's mother, his lover at the time. Such a pregnancy, if Lee Adama was indeed an agent, would introduce the ability of Cylon ''males'' to sire children (currently, episodes only show that it is possible for a Cylon ''female'' to conceive).

''There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. ''Battlestar Wiki'' does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.''

===William Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama seems to know that the Cylon agents have "silica relays" in their brains, and that they would be affected by the storm around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. This knowledge is not explained, but the [[Number Five]] copy left on the station showed signs of being affected, whereas Adama did not. In "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", Commander Adama disappears mysteriously and returns with Ellen Tigh. Around the same time, a Cylon Raider shows up. However, this was all explained later in the same episode, when Adama reveals that he was reluctant to openly announce Ellen's sudden appearance because he was afraid she could be a Cylon.

Adama also has exhibited strange behavior, from expressing vague Cylon sympathies (both in his speech in the Miniseries and in his discussion with Tyrol in "[[Home, Part I]]" where he seems to concede that Boomer was more than a machine). While not openly friendly to the Cylons, Adama seems to at least respect them as persons in that he does not treat the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii inhumanely (despite an attempt at strangling her when they first met), despite what was done to him by the Valerii copy known as "Boomer". While this could indicate a Cylon nature, it's also extremely likely that Adama's strength of character and personality enable him to think that Valerii might actually have changed.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of Valerii's hybrid child the Cylons have been unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

When the recent revelation by Ron Moore that Cylon agents are unique beings and not copies of existing humans is added to this, the likelihood of William Adama as a suspected infiltrator could be all but ruled out. This also throws the validity of Leoben Conoy's final words to Roslin accusing Adama as a Cylon in "[[Flesh and Bone]]" into question (which were almost certainly meant to just spread paranoia).

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Karl "Helo" Agathon===
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As Cylon males cannot sire children with Cylon females (per data from "[[The Farm]]"), Helo cannot realistically be a Cylon himself.

===Samuel Anders===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

As the leader of an anti-Cylon resistance movement on Cylon-occupied Caprica, [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] stands small chance of actually being a Cylon. He was a well known public figure as a sports star, though this might have only happened recently. In "[[Downloaded]]", while he is unconscious [[Number Three]] and [[Number Six]] refer to him between themselves as a human.

===Helena Cain===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

===Laura Roslin===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

President [[Laura Roslin]] may have prophetic moments, like [[Number Six]] and [[Leoben Conoy]], but she cannot possibly be a Cylon. Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education: her past is totally confirmed. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the Cylon-Human hybrid foetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

===Kara "Starbuck" Thrace===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/Human hybrid experiments, and it would be totally illogical for him to need to hold her against her will to obtain her genetic material, if the Cylons already have hundreds of copies of a Starbuck-model Cylon to obtain it from. Starbuck's incarceration in a Cylon [[Farms|Farm]] disqualifies her from being a Cylon. Further, reproduction between humanoid Cylons is impossible, and Starbuck would not have been captured for use in human-Cylon hybrid experiments if she was not human.

A further disqualification may come from how long she has known Lee or William Adama, based on her relationship with Zak. She has known them at least two years, the time between the funeral and the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]).

===Saul Tigh===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Tom Zarek===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: Yes (character over age 40)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron and Zarek refused. Due to being such a publicly known figure for so many decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.

=References=
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-10T19:30:27Z

Todd: /* "At least" 2 years */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:::::In the Grace Park Q & A, Part 3 on scifi.com, after reading the following statement from a question: "...people with verifiable histories such as Adama, Roslin, Starbuck, etc. can't be Cylons because the Cylons only started infiltrating the colonies recently..." Grace quickly responds with "Wrong!". It's not entirely clear what that really means, but it's worth noting. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:30, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
::Good. I agree. I pushed for Anders to low because I thought it would be easier to achieve. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:40, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Then again, now that we know about the Significant Seven and Final Five, it would be better to move Anders to low and keep Baltar at low. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:42, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Having thought about this, I think the best measure would be to cover all possible POV on this. One POV for those who believe Sharon telling the truth and those who believe Sharon's not. Further thoughts, concerns, suggestions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::: I think it's best to break into different pages. I just edited the page and it said it was 33kb and that 32kb was the suggested limit. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::Editting by section avoids this and constrains your changes to make edit histories more readable, even without comments. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 22:33, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::32kb is the suggested limit for pages due to technical issues with older web browsers, such as IE5 and NS4, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:06, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Ok, I am going to try and build these pages. What about titles though? We need names for the theories. I was thinking of [[Cylon agent speculation (extermination theory)]] for the theory that cylons only goal is the extermination of humans (and therefore their words can't be trusted). Not sure what to call the theory that this page currently supports. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

: [[Cylon agent speculation (procreation theory)]] would probably be apt. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
::Anyone agree to move Jammer to "Moderate probability of being a Cylon" based upon what we seen in [[Occupation]]. [[Cavil]] called him Human. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:18, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Cavil may be unaware (remember, the remaining models are supersecret), in which case he should remain as is; or he's putting Jammer in his place, which would lower him on the suspected list. I'd have to see more evidence before I'd vote either way.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 01:30, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Where did we learn that the remaining models are supersecret? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:16, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::Saw it as a reference somewhere on this site, a comment by Tricia Helfer that states essentially the remaining Cylon agents are so secret that not even the known ones are aware of who they are. I'm going to have go to spelunking through the site here to find out exactly where that was referenced, but I know I saw it.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 02:25, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:::::: Heres a link to the interview: http://z9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=5655 [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 07:09, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

==The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation==
First off, '''Summary is not the talk page'''. It is '''not''' a place to discuss previous edits. It is a summary of what '''you''' changed about the page. Not why you think a previous change is invalid. '''That is what the talk page is for'''.

Secondly, simply naming an episode where a supposed reveal takes place is '''not''' a citation. Giving lines of dialogue '''or''' paraphrasing dialogue that takes place, is a citation. The reason I want it to be this specific is because if you are not specific, people can claim cited facts when in fact they are not facts; just someone's interpretation of events. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 10:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:'''Starbuck:''' So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid?
:'''Sharon:''' They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far.
:'''Anders:''' Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.
:I think that's the relevent dialogue. Not sure how you want that incorporated... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:31, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::I'll add it, thanks. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::Mateo, having a link to "[[The Farm]]" is a [[BW:CJ|valid citation]], because this is where the information is revealed. Also, the pertinent quote that Steelviper posted on this talk page is listed on "The Farm"'s episode guide under "Noteworthy Dialogue", albeit in a much longer form. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::It's not valid because a person would have to watch the entire episode to verify it. This is the equivalent of giving a book reference and just saying what book made the claim, without listing page numbers. Turn that into your professor and you're getting a failing grade. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::While I see where you're coming from, wikis work differently than mere term papers. All one needs to do is click the link and find the pertinent information on "[[The Farm]]"'s page, which is why it's a valid wiki citation. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:45, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::One shouldn't have to read an entire article, '''not even knowing exactly what you are looking for''', to verify a claim. Besides, that breaks the citation rules of self-referencing. The person making the claim of fact has to do the work, not the person who wants to check the fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::The dialog would help, but we might also want to include timestamps. I just fixed up the {{tl|cite episode}} template to include it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::Linking to the episode guide entry on "The Farm" isn't a self reference... seeing as the pertinent quote is listed on that page (and we could even grab an audio capture of the quote in question). (We may also have to better define what a "self reference" is and what one isn't?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:36, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::::The quote wasn't cited, in any way, on the page. So a person who tried to verify the citation ''wouldn't even know to look for a quote''. They weren't told that it came from a quote in the episode. For all they know, it could simply come out of the "feel" of the episode. That's why it's important to be very specific in citations, it's the only way to judge if the citation fits the claim of fact. It removes subjectivity; either the citation fits the claim or not. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::It's valid as a matter of policy ([[BW:CJ]]); discuss it on the policy's talk page if you want it changed, though, to be frank, I doubt many will agree with you, as practicality argues weightily against your position. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 16:21, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::That page doesn't say anything about how specific you have to be when citing episode content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::::[[BW:SC#Links_to_Episodes]] supports our long-standing precedent of simply naming the relevant episode. I apologize for directing you to [[BW:CJ]] as support for something it does not directly mention. I would note that even Joe seemed to think it stated this. It probably should.
::::::If you would like justification, I suggest looking at an article with frequent citations and contemplating dropping a paragraph between ref tags in place of each parenthetical episode name. Also consider the legal ramifications, as such a policy would necessitate quoting the vast majority of every script.
::::::As a readability note, please place same-level replies to the same comment so as to advance through time as one goes down the page. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:41, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::I think that may set a bad precedent. If will start having to "cite" aired content that is already generally and reasonably accepted, the wiki will mostly be cites. Also, isn't the discussion page for clearing up most stuff like this? And CA is right, if there is a problem with the policy, take it to [[BW:CJ]]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::::Using the talk page is bad because then you will have to go over the same dispute every time someone different recognizes it. As it stands, you only need to cite controversial claims. Whenever speculation is involved, citations are necessary. There is a thin line between someone's interpretation of an event and what the simple facts are. People, by nature, '''think that their interpretation is obviously correct'''. They have a hard time recognizing POV (see above discussion with The Merovingian, who couldn't realize that his interpretations were POV, not fact). So making vague "this happened in X episode" citations makes it extremely difficult to verify that it is a simple fact and not POV interpretation. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::::I don't follow "Using the talk page is bad because then you will have to go over the same dispute every time someone different recognizes it." By all means, elaborate on that if you wish.
:::::::All claims that are not ''prima facie'' true should be cited. Being speculation or not has no bearing on this requirement.
:::::::This is a tangent which I don't feel merits further discussion here, but, to illustrate that I disagree with your example of the above discussion with The Merovingian, note that I don't agree that your POV on that matter is a cogent one.
:::::::If you consider such citations too vague, I suggest you consider trying my typical response to an episode reference I can't place, which is simply requesting clarification via the article's talk page. As you can see, in this case someone knew or could easily find the exact relevant lines of dialogue, and that person readily provided them. If that remedy does not please you, I'd suggest bringing it up at [[BW:CJ]]'s talk, but, for whatever reasons, you seem staunchly unwilling to do so. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:41, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

:I was summarizing what I changed and the reasoning behind it. You are likely referring to my parenthetical justification; I typically include such any time my edit is not obvious in intent and reasoning, particularly with reversions and partial reversions. 'An edit summary should strive to answer the question, "Why did you make this edit?".' is the first sentence of [[Wikipedia:Help:Edit summary]], so I believe such usage to be solidly in line with wiki norms. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 16:21, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::Just because it is normal doesn't mean it is correct. Summaries are for '''summarizing'''. Not communicating with previous editors. That is what the talk page is for. You specifically refered to me in your summary. That's not what summaries are for; they are for descriptions of the changes you made are, irrespective of what a previous person's changes were. You even gave me instructions to use the talk page. You should have posted your reasons for not liking my previous edit on the talk page. That's what it's for, use it. Not the summaries. That causes warring. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::It is not just normal. That page is from the people that wrote the software this wiki uses, and, as such, it represents the opinions of the people that put the summary box there in the first place. Providing justification for the edit is the intended function of the feature.
:::Edit summaries are for conveying both the substance of an edit and its reasoning. If you dislike this, you are free not to use them for such, but I will continue on my present course.
:::As to giving you instructions to use the talk page, it was actually for two distinct reasons. The first was the ''avoidance'' of a revert war in the case of your not understanding the best way to dispute a source. The second was that it offers an alternative remedy, further explaining the reasoning behind the edit.
:::As to justifications in the edit summaries causing warring, it does seem to have offended you; I'm sorry for any offense caused, and I can assure you it was not intentional. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:41, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

== Split ==

I would like to see this page split up into three different pages based on the sections that we have and setup a "table" for linking to the split up pages, but still have an overall summary on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:20, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
: Good idea Shane. Sort of like the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] series. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:38, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::yeah. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

The problem is that this already needs to be split up by different POVs. So if you are going to split it up, you need to give each splinter page specific theory names. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

== Starbuck as agent vs. relationship with Adamas ==

Hello, I just added another piece of data counting against Starbuck being a Cylon, though it may need some fine-tuning. The data added was the length of her knowing one or more of the Adama family due to her past relationship with Zak. Considering how the real-world military works, for her to have met him at flight school (and for her to have been a flight instructor), she would have had to have been in the military for some years (they don't pick hotshot nuggets for flight instructor, no matter how good), though this is real world vs. BSG world speculation. However, this doesn't detract from the fact that the relationship was well before the start of the miniseries, and likely well into the "disqualification" time. Of course, all of this is based on the info given in "[[Act of Contrition]]".

I've probably written it very badly, but it's information that is nonetheless useful, so if someone else could probably come and give me a hand cleaning it up, it would be appreciated.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 09:41, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

:Actually, I'm pretty sure that relationship was two years ago, which is when infiltration began. None of the Adamas knew her before then. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:16, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

::Not true. IIRC, there is a picture that pops up a few times in S1 which shows Zak, Kara and Lee, which would indicate that Lee knew her through Zak, and while their friendship wasn't as strong as it was as of the Miniseries, he did at least know her.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:58, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:::The facts that we know is that the relationship with Zak ended two years ago with his death. This is when Starbuck met Adama, as shown in Act of Contrition. She, however, has had a friendship with Apollo before that, as shown by the picture Thrace has and the conversation the two have when he visits her in the brig in the Miniseries. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:13, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

== Qualfier Wording ==

"''Confirmed participation in Cylon War''"

I'm not sure that this is the best way to phrase this. For example, [[Ellen Tigh]], [[Laura Roslin]], [[Tom Zarek]] and [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]] are clearly old enough (visually, at least) to have been around during the time of the Cylon War, but I really doubt Ellen was a '''participant''' in the war, per se (can anyone actually picture Ellen in the military?). This also affects Roslin, Zarek, and Cavil (insofar as [[Cavil#Galactica Copy|his statement of being a preacher for over 30 years]] before his revelation as a Cylon agent) and thus it makes the wording off. I would propose the following:

"''Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War''"

which would fit the above criteria and still match the civilians/non-combatants who lived at that time.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 09:53, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

: "Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War" would be fine to me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:26, 8 October 2006 (CDT)